#
Before you listen to this episode of The Scene and the Unseen, I have a recommendation for
#
Do check out Pullia Baazi hosted by Saurabh Chandra and Pranay Kottaswane, two really
#
good friends of mine, Kickass podcast in Hindi.
#
In 2014, when the BJP swept the general elections, commentators spoke about the Modi wave.
#
Some people were stunned by the size of this wave, but maybe they would not have been so
#
surprised if that followed the cultural, social and political currents behind this wave.
#
Narendra Modi's rise to power did not start in 2002 when the Gujarat riots happened or
#
1992 when the Babri Masjid was demolished in Ayodhya or even 1980 when the BJP was founded.
#
These currents in some form or another go back decades, if not centuries.
#
They started gathering force and were given direction around a century ago and it was
#
such a well organized, well thought out, powerful force that I am surprised that we didn't have
#
a Hindu Rashtra long, long ago.
#
The book that I will discuss on the show today is ostensibly a book of history, but it will
#
reveal the true nature of modern India more than almost any other book you can find in
#
Welcome to The Scene and the Unseen.
#
I'm honored to have the journalist and author Akshay Mukul as my guest today and we'll be
#
chatting about his brilliant book, Geeta Press and the Making of Hindu India.
#
There's been a common question asked in recent years, sometimes with genuine curiosity and
#
sometimes with mockery, where are the intellectuals of the right wing?
#
I explored this question myself in an episode I did a few months ago called The Intellectual
#
Foundations of Hindutva where I chatted with Aakar Patel who is writing a book on the Hindu
#
At the end of the episode, Aakar and I concluded that there isn't really much there.
#
On reading Akshay's book, I realized that we were perhaps too glib.
#
There is an organized intellectual tradition within the Hindutva movement and there has
#
been coherence and consistency over the decades.
#
Maybe people like me have discounted it because our first language is English and we don't
#
read the Hindi press and maybe we discounted it because we have such contempt for the founding
#
principles of this tradition that we hesitate to call it intellectual.
#
Either way, it's our mistake and our loss.
#
Without understanding these intellectual currents, I don't believe we can understand India.
#
And we will continue to be surprised election after election as our elite little bubble
#
continues to count for nothing.
#
Also, all our talk of getting our ideas into the culture stand for nothing if we cannot
#
understand our culture in the first place and the forces that shaped it.
#
Geeta Press and The Making of Hindu India is an eye-opening book.
#
But before I begin my conversations with Akshay, let's take a quick commercial break.
#
Did you know that Parsis in Mumbai, instead of being left at the Tower of Silence after
#
they die, are now cremated?
#
Because a cow fell sick in the early 1990s.
#
Did you know that the smog in Delhi is caused by something that farmers in Punjab do and
#
that there's no way to stop them?
#
Did you know that there wasn't one gas tragedy in Bhopal but three?
#
One of them was seen but two were unseen.
#
Did you know that many well-intentioned government policies hurt the people they're supposed
#
Why was demonetization a bad idea?
#
How should GST have been implemented?
#
Why are all our politicians so corrupt when not all of them are bad people?
#
I'm Amit Verma and in my weekly podcast, The Seen and the Unseen, I take a shot at answering
#
all these questions and many more.
#
I aim to go beyond the seen and show you the unseen effects of public policy and private
#
I speak to experts on economics, political philosophy, cognitive neuroscience and constitutional
#
law so that the insights can blow not only my mind but also yours.
#
The Seen and the Unseen releases every Monday.
#
So do check out the archives and follow the show at seenunseen.in.
#
You can also subscribe to The Seen and the Unseen on whatever podcast app you happen
#
Akshay, welcome to The Seen and the Unseen.
#
Thank you, Amit, for having me.
#
Akshay, tell me a little bit about yourself.
#
How did you become a journalist?
#
How did your journey start?
#
I'm originally from Bihar, but I grew up in Ranchi, which is now Jharkhand.
#
So it's a very cosmopolitan.
#
I grew up in an industrial township and we grew up without getting too much affected
#
by caste or religion because, you know, for years I had Goan neighbors or Garhwali neighbors
#
because, you know, this is how industrial towns are.
#
And I studied there till my plus two, which is I did intermediate, went to JBS college
#
And then I came to Delhi University where I studied history, I majored in history.
#
And then, well, like everyone from Bihar or that part of the world tries a hand at civil
#
services, which I did, one attempt.
#
And then I thought, no, that's something, maybe it's not for me.
#
I just couldn't clear it.
#
I just couldn't even clear prelims.
#
So I went for, I thought journalism, I tried journalism, I went to IMC and then I joined
#
the work four places, started with Asian age, which was just launched and it was like top
#
It was one of the biggest thing to happen in the early 90s.
#
Then worked in pioneer for three and a half years.
#
Then in a way changed hands.
#
Then I moved to Hindustan times where I worked for exactly two years.
#
And then times of India where I worked for almost 17 years.
#
And then now I've kind of quit, now I'm off journalism.
#
I quit in 2017 and since then I'm kind of unknown now.
#
And what kind of journalism attracted you?
#
Well, journalism, when I had grown up reading all kinds of journalism, I'm talking of M.J.
#
Akbar of those days, not the M.J. Akbar of now, but he was editing telegraph and growing
#
up in Ranchi and telegraph was launched and it was in the paper in Ranchi always, normally
#
But one waited for that paper.
#
One even waited for Indian Express or Times of India, which all came in the evening because
#
there were no Patna editions, no other editions.
#
So Delhi edition will come by air and will come in the evening.
#
One was really attracted to the kind of journalism which was happening those days with, you know,
#
Bhagalpur blindings happened, Arun Sury was there, M.J. Akbar was there.
#
And these people were taking on the establishment.
#
And when I joined profession in late 93, early 94, these people were still there.
#
Arun Sury was no longer working in active journalism, but Akbar was, I joined his paper.
#
Other people, Chandan Mitra, other people who one had grown up reading.
#
So there was this whole thing on this right on the genuine issues of the country, right
#
And it was a phase when Congress was dominating.
#
And although it was like the fag end of Congress dominance, but still Congress was very much
#
And there was this whole larger alliance of anti-Congressism happening, socialist leftists,
#
even BJP, all of them were coming together.
#
So it was a very, very interesting phase when I joined journalism.
#
I remember in 93, 94, in fact, this Andhra election was taking place and this was one
#
I think Chandrababu Naidu had managed to come back.
#
It was, I remember it was a big election.
#
Then of course, that was a phase of instability.
#
We saw governments after governments come and go from 89 onwards, only five years of
#
Narsimha Rao was five stable years, there were 96, 98, 99, and then the stability.
#
Now we are in the stable phase.
#
And once all that, I was in HD when Kargil happened, I covered Kargil in a very different
#
I traveled, I remember from Meerut to Tehri Garhwal, Puri Garhwal, just talking, going
#
to the families who had lost their children, their sons, brothers, husbands, and the whole
#
futility of war, what goes in the family, one could see it firsthand.
#
And a lot more things are happening in terms of religious politics because 92 was very
#
Politics had gone for a complete change.
#
So it was very, very, we saw United Front government.
#
We saw six years of Bajpayee rule, the 99, and then he again, 98, 14 months, and then
#
five years from 99 to 2004.
#
And I covered, I started basically as a feature writer, but I was writing on arts and culture,
#
and I must have interviewed all the writers, poets, painters, you can think of.
#
Because Pioneer was the only paper those days which had a dedicated arts page five days
#
a week, and it was a very serious arts page, very serious people were writing, very serious
#
columnists were there, and we got really into the subject.
#
So and then we had a very good weekend paper for which I wrote a lot.
#
Then I moved to writing more and more on politics while I was still there.
#
And while I moved to HD, it was again part of the Sunday team, but it was writing more
#
And that's where I covered, I had a lot of experience doing varied things.
#
For instance, I, much before this Gujarat thing, I remember doing a full page on Gujarat
#
as Hindutva laboratory.
#
And there were outrace that how you're saying this, and this was way back in 99.
#
Then I did on this whole how they were trying to, what they're trying to do with syllabus,
#
And I remember Murali Manohar Josie getting very hassled about it, he was HRD minister.
#
I did a lot on, I wrote on the Narmada Bachao Andolan, which was in a very crucial phase,
#
which was kind of in a way disintegrating, you know, that was the last rally for the
#
valley I remember in 99 or early 2000.
#
So we did a lot of interesting stuff.
#
And then I came to Daily Grind in Times of India where I was covering political parties,
#
parliament, I was doing a dedicated ministry like HRD ministry or culture ministry, which
#
gave you a ringside view of how government functions, what happens, how decisions are
#
taken or not taken, how made, unmade.
#
And parliament, of course, teaches you, you see closely how the legislation happens, how
#
things work, how politicians, how political parties come together on certain issues, how
#
on certain issues, whatever might be the rhetoric outside, deep within, they're all together,
#
you know, so you see all those things happening very closely.
#
So it was a very, very good, very enriching experience.
#
And I was lucky to work with some of the very, very good editors, you know, I worked with
#
Bharat Bhushan, I worked with Chandran Mitra, I worked with Bir Sanghvi for a while in Hindustan
#
In HD, I had all, Padgaonkar was just kind of in the last days of Padgaonkar in Times
#
But yeah, one knew him, one could always go up to him.
#
Then we had people like Siddhartha Varadarajan, Manoj Joshi, you know, so it was a very, very
#
Later on, changes happened in Times of India around 2004, early 2004.
#
Because somewhere BJP, I think it was a complete coup, a lot of people had to move out and
#
the people who was considered very close to the government took over.
#
But then the election, they lost.
#
And after that, and one has actually, I consider 2004 and 2009 actually, the UPA 2, that's
#
when it started deteriorating.
#
And now in 2014, I was very much there when Modi came to power.
#
And you could see for the first time, you know, you're always second guessing the your
#
boss, political bosses, you're thinking what's happening, not happening, which is not to
#
say that was not happening during Congress regime.
#
I know of Congress ministers who would constantly bazaar editors and owners saying that why
#
my particular kind of picture gets published, please ensure that it never comes out again.
#
But it's become far worse now, it's happening at a different level altogether.
#
I had a young political scientist on my show a few weeks ago called Rahul Verma, and who's
#
just written this book called Ideology and Identity.
#
And Rahul made a very interesting point that because he grew up essentially reading Hindi
#
newspapers every day, he got a very different view of India from what his peers have today.
#
And I'm just wondering that in your case, you grew up in Ranchi and obviously, your
#
Hindi is excellent because you know,
#
My family has been very bilingual family has been a stress.
#
So that's how I got used to Hindi literature, I read Hindi literature a lot when I was growing
#
up, I continue to and I feel we have added this completely false sense of I don't know
#
what to call it by you know, reading Hindi or reading any other language, it's not about
#
I have Telugu friends who my generation who kind of regret their children not reading,
#
I regret my daughter not reading Hindi as much.
#
I don't know maybe I tried too much, maybe I didn't try enough, maybe there's something
#
wrong but I feel very bad that the children all coming out a single language, English
#
So that way, yes, I was lucky what Rahul told you he's absolutely right, your sensibilities,
#
the way you see the world completely changes because Hindi newspapers in the literature
#
introduce you to a world which exists in which we and we are not aware of, you know.
#
For instance, say someone reading a book like Ragh Darbari, I must have read it.
#
I think when I was just out of school or something and so nothing after that, nothing sucks here,
#
You feel that okay, this is so true he was, you know.
#
And you realize the power of literature because more than any other book of non-fiction.
#
Yeah, more than nothing, absolutely, absolutely.
#
In fact, Rahul and I discussed Ragh Darbari also as an example.
#
When you see this India that we are inhabiting now, you realize that oh God, you know, just
#
see this how, I met Mr. Lal Shukla much, much later and I just couldn't imagine, yeah, he
#
was a man who had a great sense of humor and I was kind of trying to ask him what is the
#
process, how did he, he said, you know, I was just, he was an administrator.
#
So he had seen India and he had an added perspective to how things work, what happens.
#
So he brought everything there and nothing had changed.
#
This is the India of Mr. Lal Shukla, Ragh Darbari has not changed at all.
#
If you ask me, nothing has changed.
#
All of those fundamental things, the way the bureaucracy works, the way people think, it's
#
Yeah, nothing flat out the same.
#
So I can't help but ask you that, okay, so, you know, you went to college and you did
#
a degree in history and typically people of my generation and earlier generations, what
#
we did a degree on, we just happened to do it.
#
It wasn't really a real interest degree.
#
But in your case, there is this interesting symmetry that you do a degree in history and
#
you spend these decades in journalism and then you write this great book of history.
#
See, I have been a kind of history junkie.
#
I have been kind of, I have been genuinely interested in history.
#
And in fact, a lot of my friends who are in academics, they always joke that, you know,
#
when a new book comes on history, he probably buys or reads before us, you know?
#
So I have this, my entire money goes in books.
#
That's all I've done in life.
#
If someone asks me, I've done nothing but only bought books.
#
Pretty much the same actually.
#
I live behind nothing, just books.
#
And I have been genuinely interested in reading new kinds of history, what is happening worldwide,
#
And one can see how the history writing also has changed, the time when I was in college
#
to subsequently, and then some books completely kind of, like for instance, this book that
#
I'm talking about, Francisco Orsini's Hindi Public something, I'm not getting the title
#
And then Vasudha Dalmeyer's book on nationalization of Hindu tradition on Banaras.
#
You find that this, they're saying something which is first time history writing, or you
#
don't want to call it history, don't call it, it's a kind of literary history of a different
#
kind of things which no one bothered about.
#
Your history books never told you.
#
And they're talking about creation of mindsets, how mindsets became what they become, you
#
know, but what we are seeing now.
#
So Vasudha Dalmeyer's is a great book which talks of how this whole thing started in a
#
city like Banaras, the role of Bharatindu Harishchandra.
#
Francisco Orsini takes it even forward.
#
Charu Gupta comes who brings out, if you ever thought that Hindi literature was all about
#
nationalism or patriotism and everything, see, talks of sexuality, obscenity in Hindi
#
literature, not literature, it's even talking about journals, and it's a path breaking
#
And then you grew up in a place where you see that Gita Press is there all the time,
#
In any ordinary Hindu household, they did not be rabidly communal or anything, they
#
were very secular households, it was coming, it was coming for your grandparents, someone
#
was reading somewhere, you know.
#
And if you ask anyone, everyone knew about Gita Press and everyone had their own story
#
So then you realize, so in fact before I started working on it, I asked, I remember Wendy Doniger,
#
that why did she never work on it?
#
She said, well, I'm not interested so much that aspect of this thing, but it's a very
#
And just then before that, there's another story called Ulrich Stark, she did a brilliant
#
book on Nawal Kishore Press of Lucknow, Kanpur, and it's an amazing book on the history of
#
So I kept wondering that how come there's nothing in Gita Press, everyone reads about
#
Gita Press, and that got me thinking, that got me inside Gita Press, and I could easily
#
In fact, a lot of my friends, in fact Basudha also asked me this, that how could you relate
#
I could relate to it also because as you said right in the beginning, because reading is
#
multiple things in languages, Hindi, so that was not a kind of alien thing, I didn't have
#
any problem thinking about working on Gita Press, it was not something formidable for
#
And in a sense, a book is much more than the history of a printing press, it's also to
#
me the history of the whole Hindutva movement, it's in a sense bits of it are also a very
#
fascinating sociological study of Marwaris and how their social position changed, and
#
of course there were the main people behind the Gita Press were Marwaris.
#
And I was staggered at one point when I came across these figures in your book, I'll just
#
As of February 2014, 71.9 million copies of the Gita have been sold, this is Gita Press
#
For the Ramcharitmanas and other works by Goswami Tulsidas, the figure is 70 million
#
copies, while 19 million copies of the Puranas, Upanishads and ancient scriptures have been
#
Then there are the tracts and monographs on the duties of ideal Hindu women and children,
#
of which 94.8 million copies have been sold so far, while more than 65 million copies
#
of stories from India's mythic past, biographies of saints and devotional songs have been bought.
#
And you also for example, talking about every year they used to bring out these special
#
issues and talking about in 1938 they got out Manasankh, which was in Ramcharitmanas.
#
And there you write quote, the very first print run was of 40,600 copies and by late
#
1983 a total of 5.69 million copies had been printed, a record unparalleled in the work
#
And you know, maybe I should be ashamed of this, but I had no idea that something so...
#
Well, if you see, in fact, there's a friend of mine from Rajchi, who grew up differently.
#
He said, how come I was not aware?
#
Then I said, why don't you ask your parents maybe, ask your mother, she'll be aware of
#
And he said, no, even she won't be aware.
#
Then he found out that yes, they knew somehow he was not interested.
#
His interests lie elsewhere.
#
So it's about... but I can safely tell you, while I was working on it, and I have friends
#
across who work across professions, friends who are like very in corporate world from
#
And if you tell them Geeta Press, the brand recall itself told me the story that even
#
if they don't know anything about Geeta Press, they know of, they've heard of Geeta Press.
#
And as far as these numbers, even I was staggered, and I took it from their website.
#
I didn't want to be kind of... and their website says it.
#
And there won't be any single, in North India at least, any single Hindu household where,
#
you know, even a scholar who keeps a copy of, say, Ramayan for some study or something,
#
he'll say, boss, let's get the Geeta Press version, English as well as Hindi, even Mahabharat,
#
because it's cleaner, it's well-brought, very high production quality.
#
All the books are very high production, even Kalyan, very high production quality.
#
Kalyan being the magazine.
#
Kalyan being the magazine, yeah, magazine.
#
And the idea of also gifting religious texts, if you go to city like Banaras or Gorakhpur,
#
you'll find that there is, or even Delhi, the Delhi store in Chandni Chow, in that old
#
Delhi, certain books, if you call up and say, do you have this?
#
No, it's just run out of it, you'll have to wait for a week.
#
And so it constantly sells, and then in Ramayan, then they have this thing called, what they
#
call gutka, which is basically smaller, miniature version of Ramayan, you're on road, you can't
#
carry the fat volume, so you can read it.
#
That itself sells in lakhs and lakhs.
#
And these figures also, don't forget, would be what they export.
#
And huge diaspora population relies on, they're the big clientele in this diaspora population,
#
because they were the first ones to even think of, I will not say first one, but the early
#
ones, who in 1934 started an English journal called Kalyan Kalpataru, because they said,
#
well, we have to do something about them.
#
In fact, in your book, you've got accounts of various people, both Indians and non-Indians
#
And they were trying to track people who could write, even non-Hindus, great scholars of
#
Hinduism, Jainism, they were trying to get them to write, to give it that kind of very
#
eclectic feel about it.
#
Let's kind of go back to the starting of it.
#
Let's talk about sort of the impetus behind the Gita press to talk it, to start off.
#
And in your book, you mentioned that there are sort of three factors, and let's kind
#
of take them one by one.
#
And the first factor that you mentioned is the consolidation of Hindi.
#
Tell me a little bit about, I mean, all of us take Hindi for granted, like it's been
#
But in a sense, Hindi was a political project of its own.
#
Yeah, it was, because see, this whole movement in which Madan Mohan Malviya played a big
#
And 1900, which is called the McDonald movement, which is actually not my coinage, Alok Rai's
#
coinage, which I find absolutely brilliant coinage, 1900 is when the petition finally
#
To recognize Hindi as separate language.
#
To recognize Hindi as separate court language.
#
You know, very smart move.
#
Once you change it in court, subsequently it has its impact.
#
You know, it has its ripple effect.
#
And a lot of things are happening simultaneously.
#
There is this whole Hindi is now finally found someplace at the cost of Persian.
#
Then what happens, the print technology is just coming, which is slowly settling down.
#
And Marwadis are investors.
#
If you find in most in North India, most of the publishing houses Marwadis were investing.
#
And for philanthropic reasons too.
#
And then Hindi is coming.
#
So first quarter of the 20th century is kind of a golden phase of this publishing.
#
And Hindi journals are coming one after the other.
#
English journals are also coming, like firstly you have this great modern review coming from
#
But Ramanand Chatterjee was a completely different sort of a person.
#
He was also paying for Bisal Bharat.
#
So in fact, Calcutta became a big center of Hindi publishing.
#
So you have Saraswati coming from Calcutta, you have Bisal Bharat, which continued till
#
And in those days, in 1930s, late 30s, he was incurring a loss of 70,000 rupees, but
#
he was still publishing it.
#
So what I'm trying to say is that it was a golden phase of now.
#
In that, all the journals which were coming were very general in nature, mostly literary.
#
Say Saraswati or Bisal Bharat, it will have a bit of politics, bit of literature, bit
#
of poetry, you know, the usual, some international news, but very well brought out.
#
Geeta Press in a way is the first one which is exclusively devoted to religion.
#
There were a few other attempts made.
#
And it came also because, you know, Marwaris, there's been a churning happening within the
#
Marwari world because there was a section which was not kind of happy with what the
#
newfound wealth was doing to the community.
#
As it is, as Goenka at one point says, we are being equated with Jews and, you know,
#
we have this thing of us, you know, we're taking money, you know, lending on high rate
#
Yes, Vijayadilal Goenka.
#
And so there was this churning happening within and there was this, and Marwaris were known
#
for the ostentatious display of wealth in the marriages and various other things.
#
So there was this two stream, like Jamnalal Bajaj you had, GD Birla, who were the moderate
#
To deal with, there were two ways, like Jamnalal Bajaj and also just stop doing this, become
#
There's this other world of Vijayadilal Goenka, Hanuman Prasad Poddar and also the answer
#
lies in going back to our roots and basically celebrating the Sanatana dharma.
#
And that, you know, Sanatana, this is what we had a great past, which was interrupted
#
by Muslim rule and now British rule and so we have to go back to that period when we
#
were doing extremely well in everything, you know, science, literature and that's this
#
whole thing, Kalyan finds a place.
#
So one motive was, of course, the introspection for the community, but there was a larger
#
good also involved that, you know, the country should go back to its ancient roots and that's
#
when we were kind of doing very well.
#
No, and I find it interesting that, you know, in a sense, the political core of both the
#
rise of Hindi and the establishment of the Gita press and Kalyan seems to be the same,
#
which is harking back to a mythical past and leaving aside Hindustani, which is this conglomeration
#
of Urdu and Persian and whatever, and creating Hindi for the Hindus, you know, and really
#
like you point out in 1877, Bhartendu Harishchandra gave this speech called, Hindi ki unnuti par
#
And from there, of course, Hida is young, but it kind of becomes a political movement
#
and it totally makes sense that then the journal which is set up really to take that politics
#
forward beyond just the religious aspect of it is in Hindi and it all kind of seems to
#
I also found your whole account of the churn in the Marwari community very interesting.
#
For example, I'll quote again from your book, with Marwari domination of the growth of Indian
#
capitalism in the late 19th and early 20th century, two crucial but contradictory things
#
happened, stop quote, and one is because they are the trading class and they're looking
#
for profit and all that, they become the butt of jokes like the Jews did elsewhere.
#
And the second you point out is, you quote a historian who talks about the semi involuntary
#
Yeah, I know, it's a fascinating thing.
#
In which Vaishyas become the new Kshatriyas.
#
So in fact, you know, because it was a money, cloud of money, you find that Marwari's, if
#
you follow Sanatana Dharma for a second, for argument's sake, not that one believes in
#
it is that Marwari's had no business to be wearing sacred thread, right?
#
But because of the money, you find that their entire ritual got Brahmanized.
#
Then you find the temples, schools, the hospitals, you know, sarais, inns, whatever they were
#
making, everywhere started bearing plaque of wealthy Marwari who helped in building
#
You will not find it a single plaque as one of my historian friends says, pre 20th century
#
period, Marwari's were still coming up.
#
It's only after around the first quarter of 20th century that they had to establish themselves
#
to deal with this infamy that they were being equated with Jews, you know, the money making
#
thing was becoming a bit of a problem for the community.
#
And there was a churning within also, there was this whole thought process that we should
#
In fact, there is a historian, he is not a historian, he is kind of a chronicler among
#
Marwari's called Jamini Barua who did a completely, I wish someone could have just put it together
#
in a very different way.
#
He did a book called Mai Apni Marwari Jaati Se Pyaar Kartam and he brings up, I had to
#
kind of really work hard to get that, all those six volumes, but he just puts together
#
every single act of philanthropy that Marwari's did till the period that he did book and across
#
So this was very, very important to Marwari's for getting this whole Brahmanical rituals
#
in the marriages also, like a lot of my Marwari friends have told me that a lot of rituals
#
are completely Brahmanical, which was not happening say back home in Rajasthan or anything.
#
So that period becomes very crucial.
#
Lot of things are happening in the Marwari world, social, business, you know, in their
#
business life, in the social life.
#
So in fact, in your book, you talk about the philanthropy and then you say, quote, through
#
such initiatives, Marwari's replace the aristocracy and wealthy landlords as religious patrons
#
and change the Kshatriya Brahman interface of Hindu society to a Vaishya Brahman interface
#
that eventually resulted in the Marwari-ization of Hinduism, stop quote.
#
And it seems to me that what was really happening here was a marriage of convenience where the
#
Brahmans need the patronage of the Marwari's and the Marwari's are buying respectability
#
Absolutely, through this.
#
They were trying to help each other and Kshatriyas never had that kind of, you know, they didn't
#
have, they could fight your war, they could fight your battle, but that's it.
#
And in this age, those Rajput valor is pointless.
#
And it's interesting how the proximate impetus for the Gita Press actually comes from a sort
#
of an argument within the Marwari community where you talk about how in the oppressive
#
Delhi heat of March, April, 1926, there's an eight annual conference of the All India
#
Marwari Agarwal Mahasabha.
#
And there, there's an argument between JD Birla and Atmaram Khemka and Atmaram Khemka
#
is talking about Sanatan Dharam and this is the direction we should go in.
#
And JD Birla is saying, look, this is not the platform for that.
#
If you want, why don't you do a journal?
#
And that's how this journal comes about.
#
And then they have a train journey, Rohtak and all that happens.
#
So it is actually fascinating to come to and look at this larger network of Marwari's also,
#
how they're helping out.
#
See, the idea takes place somewhere in know what is Haryana and Bajaj Press, the family
#
in Bombay, which are like the big publishers.
#
They still apparently own the big mill land, the press land, because what they had from
#
those days, they had a paper also, Bankatesh Samachar or something.
#
And they were big publishers in those days.
#
And he agrees to just do it for a year, just take my press, do it.
#
I think almost 14 months he did it.
#
And meanwhile, Goenka is in Calcutta, Anuman Prasad Poddar is the one who then he moves
#
to after Debenin moves to Gorakhpur, he moves to Gorakhpur.
#
These are two of the impetuses, which kind of two of the stimuli which made the Gita
#
One, the growth of Hindi as a political movement and then within the culture as a language
#
that people speak and write in.
#
And of course, this Marwari movement where they are getting more integrated into that
#
mainstream of Hinduism with their so-called, with their putative alliance with the Brahmins.
#
The third element that you point out is that the 1920s are a hotbed of political communalism.
#
Like you write about how there were 91 Hindu Muslim riots in United Provinces between 1923
#
And it's a memorable time because Savarkar's Hindutva comes out in 1923, the RSS is founded
#
And also, which is, you know, the Hindu Mahasabha is a very powerful party at this time, much
#
more so than it is today.
#
And also, within the Congress, there is a very strong stream of Hindu traditionalists
#
like Madan Mohan Malviya.
#
And who was also a member of Hindu Mahasabha, you are a member of Congress also.
#
Founded the Banaras in the University.
#
Just lay out that political landscape for me of the time and where sort of Hindu nationalism
#
See, they've, I think, till late 19, I think somewhere till 1930s, meeting of Gorakshini
#
Sabha and Congress, Hindu Mahasabha and all the members, you could be a member of both.
#
So Congress, when it now regrets and says, doesn't actually look back at its past, especially
#
very dominant glass within the Congress, Nehru and Gandhi's, they managed to battle this
#
group, this dominant class within the party, but they were always there.
#
You know, you have Malviya, you had said Govindas, you had Govind Ballopant, much later said
#
You know, there's this whole stream of people who were very aligned to the Hindu cause,
#
but they also knew Congress for the party, which had a future.
#
I was fascinated by one of the nuggets in your book that back in 1891, a Gaurakshini
#
Sabha meeting took place during the Nagpur session of Congress.
#
In fact, if you look at the records, I remember this one, which leader says he came out and
#
this person who's reporting is saying he came out after giving a fiery speech in the Congress
#
session and walked straight into the Gorakshini Sabha.
#
So now, when today Congress says what it does, they don't know about their own past, actually
#
Even now, in fact, the problem of Congress is even now you have that element which exists.
#
You know, this whole conundrum about whether to go to temple or not to go to temple, Rahul
#
Gandhi is a Janav Dhariv Hindu or not.
#
So this emanates from the past that they have, you know, and once you name names in the party
#
in the Congress, but we know who are these leaders who are constantly pushing.
#
So in fact, someone should ask Rahul Gandhi, no decision to be a Janav or this temple hopping
#
thing, was it something which he approved of or was someone telling him to do it?
#
But I guess the thing with, for example, the so-called soft Hindutva of the Congress today
#
is that a lot of it seems to be merely posturing while back in the day, a lot of the big leaders
#
of the Hindu Nationalists.
#
Yeah, because they were very important leaders.
#
Just see the battle that Nehru had to wait with Prashottam Das Tandon on cow.
#
Then he says, I'll resign and only someone like Nehru who had to really believe in what
#
And another, another battle in fact, which Nehru lost is when the idol of Lord Ram appears
#
magically in the Singh and Gobind Mallabh Pant is then CM of UP, Lal Bahadur Shastri
#
is Home Minister of UP and he tells him, get the idol removed and they ignore him.
#
Look at Rajesh Adiyal's account when he says that nobody would listen to him.
#
And even in case of Podar, Podar is among thousands of people.
#
Nobody is saying whether he was directly involved or not, but yes, he was also who was suspected
#
to have some role in Gandhi's assassination.
#
How on earth someone who was arrested even for a few days in 48, in 51, will you recommend
#
Which is what the then Home Minister.
#
Which Gobind Mallabh Pant did, it's unimaginable.
#
How could he even suggest and then you're saying you tear up this later.
#
That anyway was a tradition those everyone used to say, tell everyone tear up the letter
#
And now we come to the hero of the story Hanuman Prasad Podar, who's of course a cultural giant,
#
which is why I think Gobind Mallabh Pant would have wanted to give him the Bharat Ratna,
#
but he's also somewhat like Gandhi, a figure with many internal contradictions.
#
He is at one level is a fascinating man.
#
You really want to, he never went to university, he never went, I read his English, it's impeccable.
#
You see his range of readings, it's impeccable.
#
He was a fascinating editor, he was an editor who could go out of the way to, if you see
#
his letters to some of these contributors, someone teaching in Hunter College in New
#
York, his writing and he's not, he's just, he's relentless that you have to write.
#
And his whole knowledge about who's working on what all over the world, it's fascinating.
#
Even the new age sadhus who are coming up in a big way in Germany who are teaching yoga,
#
he's aware of all of them.
#
He is the way he gets after Sampurna Nan, this is you have to keep the issue on hold,
#
but you have to write and he lets him write.
#
And when Sampurna Nan as a chief minister writes something which is not to his liking,
#
he says, well, we'll publish it once, but we won't want any further debate on it.
#
And he makes it very clear.
#
So if you, from his point of view, he was an editor of more than 40 years, 46 years.
#
And mind you, in between many times he'll throw tantrums, he'll leave, he'll go away,
#
but they'll never let him go away.
#
He became larger than life and on top of that, he had this whole spiritual aspect to him
#
that he had visions of God and this and that.
#
Yeah, which is very interesting.
#
I mean, there was this whole origin myth about how he was born.
#
So, you know, they address him in a certain way in Gorakhpur.
#
So he's seen as an incarnation of God.
#
I know people who, I know one lady who's like now 90 plus, coming from a very big industrialist
#
family in Delhi, who just couldn't believe, who thought that I was doing a great work
#
of God by writing on Gita Press and the kind of things that she had to say about Bodar
#
because Bodar, people saw, those who believed in him, saw him no less than as incarnation
#
In fact, you quote Tejibachan.
#
Yeah, Tejibachan, imagine one of the birthday, I think seventh birthday of Ajitabh Bachchan,
#
he's brought all the way to Gorakhpur.
#
And then he did Avadhi Gita only at the instance of Radha Baba, who was like his guru and later.
#
This was, yeah, and you know, just to quote like two different, very different aspects
#
of Bodar and both unrelated to sort of his professional work, but personal aspects which
#
And the first one is, of course, the spooky religious aspect.
#
And you write quote, Bodar would have more visions of God in the next few years.
#
In 1936, he claimed to have been met in Gita Vatika, which was very lived by celestials,
#
a sage, Narada and Angiras, the sage who received the Atharva Veda.
#
Bodar claimed that they explained to him concepts which are not part of the Shastras, stop quote.
#
And another aspect of it, which is a more introspective, self-critical aspect, which
#
you write about later in the book, start quote, writing to an acquaintance, Bodar said he
#
was not the person he had been made out to be by others.
#
And neither was Gita Press anymore the ideal place to seek spiritual solace.
#
And now it's Bodar's words, till a few years ago, this was a good place for those involved
#
This place is not fulfilling, as it is marked by demonic traits like self-promotion, jealousy,
#
And he continues, there is no limit to my meanness and misdemeanors.
#
Neither could I become a good person, nor could I help my associates, improve, stop
#
He, he'll get into this long phases of self-introspection where he will, all his replies to everyone
#
would be of this nature, you know, I have failed, I'm here, and mostly this will be
#
when he'll be in Dalmira's factory in one place, or he'll be in Ratangarh in Bikaner.
#
This also in a way helped building what we call now, you know, Bodar brand, you know,
#
because people would know that there'll be phases, now Bhaiji as he was called, Bhaiji
#
has gone into sulk or Bhaiji is in a different mode, so he's become inaccessible and, but
#
his, when he's talking about the soul decline, the moral values in Gita press, that is mostly
#
because he could see what was happening around, in his own family, what was happening with
#
children, what, not his children, but, you know, associates, the children, they were
#
going out eating, then he has problems with people who are watching cinema, people eating
#
ice cream, people sharing, drinking from the same glass, which, which they still continue
#
to kind of propagate, you know.
#
So before we get on to sort of the Gita press itself, how it grew, and one by one, we'll
#
tackle all the themes, the broad themes that come up, there was an intriguing side light,
#
which was, you write about this thing called the Rodha Conspiracy, which this is well before
#
the Gita press around 1953, 1960, when he was growing up in Calcutta, when he was growing
#
up and some Marwaris were involved in this, he himself was arrested.
#
And it's very interesting that the Marwaris managed to hush up the matter and they get
#
him out and then they almost seem to take a decision as a community that we are not
#
going to get into this kind of politics.
#
We are going to do our dandu and all of that, and my question is that, is this also to some
#
extent one of the many reasons that the Hindutva movement was never anti-colonial, like later
#
when the Gita press got into politics, it got into politics against fellow nationalists,
#
you know, against Nehru and against Congress, but never against a British person.
#
Because see, for them, commerce was, nothing came before commerce.
#
It was for commerce that they left their family, wife, children, everyone behind Rajasthan.
#
This community was very focused and despite all the joke and whatever, you know, this
#
larger thing which was said about Marwaris, that didn't deter them from the path.
#
And here comes something which would have completely destroyed them.
#
If you see the pages of Calcutta Samachar, which was edited by Jhabar Mal Sarma, who
#
was also Marwari, they first tried to, because I was trying to track what they're saying
#
because it was very important what Calcutta Samachar says.
#
So they're saying, kuch Marwariyon ki giraftari hui hai, and then they give names, GD Birla
#
is also there, one of them by the way, and who absconded, and people say that he went
#
And fellow Marwaris who got arrested, they say that those days, apparently, more than
#
What the money would be.
#
And that gentleman, that police officer later on, which is even more interesting.
#
I think Medha's biography of Birla says, he or someone else wrote it, that that gentleman,
#
police officer later, after retirement from police, was heading the London operations.
#
So this immediately, so first thing they did was, they just said that, okay, it was not
#
even, that tone was not defined at all.
#
That you know, my community has done, my boys cannot do it.
#
Even if they do it, they were for the larger, no, no, no, nothing.
#
They said, basically, they're saying these are misguided youth, okay?
#
And then they get certain people who were very close to the colonial rulers to come
#
and speak to them and be there, kind of negotiate on their behalf.
#
And then Kolkata Samachar for the after that is constantly talking about how law abiding
#
They have nothing to do with all this.
#
And as you said, just do your commerce.
#
That they didn't want interrupted at all, which road arms, if you actually look at the
#
original records, which is there in the sixth volume, which kind of West Bengal government
#
brought out, it's like, they were really trying to get after them, but it got hussed.
#
Only he and then the gentleman who later became a member of Raj Sabha, Prabhu Dayal, Himmat
#
Singha and few others got arrested.
#
Their lives, so there was a rancor among some of these Marwadis that Birla got away.
#
We still had to face punishment, spend time in jail.
#
I mean, Himmat Singha was a post-independence minister and minister became, Himmat Singha
#
become one of the top-notch lawyers in the country.
#
So yes, that was basically keep away from all this, from whatever is happening.
#
And this is, you know, also interesting because Poddar, you know, before this, he got very
#
influenced by the extremists within the Congress party, as you pointed out, Bipin Chandra Pal
#
And he also simultaneously and later on in time and through the years, this became a
#
love-hate relationship, but got extremely close to Gandhi, got very, very close to Gandhi
#
And we'll discuss that as well in the second half is really that relationship is fascinating.
#
But what seems to me is that after this Rodha thing happens and they are let off, he pretty
#
much decided that I'm going to stay away from politics and the Gita Press is really a cultural
#
And at the same time, it's a political project, which is happening under the surface.
#
And which he makes, his very first editorial of Kalyan in 1926, it's a fascinating, which
#
is a kind of a template from which Gita Press is not wavered at all, where he talks of everything,
#
where he talks about what is happening all over the world.
#
He's talking about what is Hindu-Muslim unity, he's talking about what we should do too.
#
And mostly it doesn't become, it doesn't have anti-colonial language.
#
It's mostly about the community.
#
It's mostly about the religion and Muslims, of course.
#
And then he says that, you know, we should learn from Muslims to be together and fight
#
And then he says, I use the word Sangbal, unity of strength.
#
No, in fact, at different points in time, he almost sort of cozies up to the British.
#
For example, when George V dies in 1926, you know, again, quoting from your book, his death
#
in 1926 came at a time when Kalyan was still finding its feet.
#
And for a journal that counted Hindu nationalism as a scenic one of the freedom movement, paying
#
tribute to King George V was possibly a calculated act to win the goodwill of the colonial government.
#
Udhar called George V an ideal husband, father, son, and friend, and justified the gloom his
#
death had brought to his subjects, family and friend.
#
How would he know George V was an ideal father?
#
That was a, yeah, randomly, kuch bhi bol rata hai.
#
Do whatever to please them.
#
You know, and as a project gets underway, I mean, you write about how gradually the early
#
issues of Kalyan are sort of a testing ground for what become leet motifs and dominant
#
themes later, like cow slaughter and gender and so on, which we'll discuss as we go along.
#
But I was particularly struck by how even though the Gita Press and Kalyan was, you'd
#
put it in the philanthropic box of the Marwaris that they are not doing this for profit.
#
This doesn't mean dhandho.
#
Nevertheless, you described that the model of Hinduism they sell is almost a Baniya model
#
Yeah, so Baniya model, see, they had to make religion attractive.
#
One of the ways in which they started right in the beginning and which in a way played
#
a big role and continues to, in fact, is that selling you recite God's name for 20, 50,000
#
times, or you write in a notebook and submit to us.
#
They had the Ramayan Bank and all that, and then they had this Ram Naam, Jap Vibhag, and
#
they had a similar thing for something for Gita.
#
So it immediately struck a chord among people, among the literate people that, okay, I know
#
people who even now are doing it, sending the notebooks full of Ram Ram Ram Ram, and
#
they're sending it and they're saying, okay, we've written one lakh times.
#
So it brought God and directly, you know, there's a direct interface with God.
#
And then they said, then this Bhagwan Mahima Ank, they brought out of Kalyan, which is
#
a fascinating issue where everyone is talking about bizarre things have happened because
#
they believed in God and they recited the name of the God.
#
And so many times, or they did this and it helped someone's daughter's marriage two days
#
before marriage, someone postman brings 20,000 rupees from somewhere, you know, all kinds
#
It was almost a transactional model of Hinduism.
#
Yeah, it was a very transactional.
#
You name enough times, you'll get it.
#
You do it, you will get it.
#
And they'll say, therefore the stress on whole rituals that, you know, if you want a male
#
child, you have to do this.
#
You know, if you want to do that, you have to fast in the first hour of on certain day.
#
you find that this is even now Kalyan has a full page which says ki in the
#
coming month the next month what will be the celestial positions of and what can
#
you do and which is and there are every day some Purnima or some Ekadasi or
#
some Dwadasi if you go by it and people are following if I have seen women in
#
Gorakhpur who are kind of doing it all the time and even outside Gorakhpur you
#
know you know women who are doing it. In fact I was also you know going to discuss
#
the sort of the strategic genius of Poddar and the various things they did
#
about outreach which include the Gita Sabhas, Ramayana Sabhas, Gita tests for
#
children where they would give prices and medals for kids and the Gita society and
#
and what you're talking about this transactional model and these rituals
#
that you perform again I'll quote from your book because I just found this an
#
incredibly fascinating and jaw-dropping quote. I'll stop quote. Four kinds of
#
membership were on offer for the Gita department. The first included those who
#
read the entire Gita 18 chapters once every day 365 times in a year. The second
#
type of members could finish all the chapters over two days and the complete
#
text 180 times in a year. The third category of members read six chapters
#
in a day thus reading the Gita 120 times in a year. The last category of members
#
could reach as much of the Gita as of each daily as long as they completed at
#
least 42 readings in a year. Stop quote. Yeah and it's fascinating you don't need
#
to live a virtuous life you don't need to judge. Just read it and your
#
job is done you know. We'll now take a quick break and we'll come back after
#
the commercial break to get really into the meat of what the Gita press was all
#
about and what the Sanatana Dharm Hindu movement was attempting to. Hello
#
everybody welcome to another awesome week on the IBM podcast network. If you
#
are not following us on social media please make sure you do. We're IBM
#
podcasts on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Instagram was a big week for
#
us this week. We crossed 10,000 followers. Also you should check out the kind of
#
stuff that we do over there. Get a look into the studio and you know I mean like
#
see some of the quotes and stuff like that that come out and audiograms and
#
you know all that other kind of good stuff. So you know let me tell you about
#
two new shows that are coming up right. So the first one let me talk to you
#
about is ABCD. This show is hosted by Farhad and Sunetro. They share the ABCDs
#
of their queer lives and dig into the memories and experiences. Tune in for a
#
new episode every week on Tuesdays. Another show we're really excited to
#
bring you is called Feeding 10 Billion. This show is hosted by Good Food
#
Institute's Varun Deshpande and Ramya Ramamurthy. They talk to experts in the
#
food industry about rethinking protein and reimagining food systems in India.
#
New episodes out every Tuesday for this show as well. Also Simplified is completing
#
150 episodes. My god I can't believe that we're already there. They need your
#
help to celebrate this milestone. Send us theories, concepts or questions that you
#
have using the hashtag Simplified 150 on Twitter or send us a DM on Instagram
#
and Chuck Narinashree will answer your questions on episode 150. On Cyrus says
#
Cyrus is joined by Rajiv Lakshman of Raghu Rajiv from Roadies fame. He shares
#
childhood stories of growing up with the twin brother, his memories of Cyrus at
#
MTV and his new show Skulls and Roses. The Ganatantra podcast is back from a
#
hiatus with a warm-up episode. Sadyu and Alok discuss themes that you can look
#
forward to in season 2. On Whattaplaya, Akash, Mikhail and Siddharth talk about
#
the Bangladesh Zimbabwe tri-series. Monty Panaser is the next mayor of London,
#
the physical requirements for playing chess and a lot more. On Tech Careers in
#
the News, Shiladitya is joined by Kaushik Vijayaraghavan and Aditi Kulkarni to talk
#
about intelligent automation and its impact on the real world. On Agla station
#
adulthood, Ritasha and Ayushi dive into romantic relationships and the
#
complexities that they entail. On Keeping it Queer, Farhad and Naveen talk to
#
performance artist Swapnil Alize about accepting her identity, her love for
#
dance and her group Colour Positive. On our Kannada podcast, Thalle Harate, Nara
#
Hari KS joins Ganesh and Pawan to share an overview of public relations in India
#
and how it is involved. And with that, let's get you on with your show.
#
Welcome back to The Scene in the Unseen. I'm chatting with Akshay Mukul, writer of
#
the brilliant book The Geeta Press and the making of Hindu India. Let's kind of
#
go through the different sort of dominant themes that The Geeta Press
#
took up. Some of them resonate to this day and and one of them is a cow. So you
#
know and people today seem to think that this is a recent thing and of course to
#
a certain extent you know because for example cow slaughter would mainly have
#
Muslims and Dalits involved in it. The whole movement almost seems as a proxy
#
to just attack those guys but it goes a lot deeper than that doesn't it? Yeah it
#
is. In fact cow and women have been, I don't think there's been a single issue
#
of Kalyan where these two virtue of cow and the need to keep the sanctity of
#
Hindu women is not discussed in one way or the other. In fact there's a sentence
#
that I remember from your book where you write about how you quote someone
#
saying wars have been fought over cows and women. Yeah wars have been and and cow
#
was because cow was a rallying point for them. Cow they realized would help them
#
tide over the deep caste divisions which the Hindus had. It should help them talk
#
of not talk of other things and mind you when this Gaurakshini Sabha started and
#
the violence started in the name of cow. Marwaris were bankrolling but who were
#
the foot soldiers? Foot soldiers were people like the communities like Yadavs
#
and Kurnis. In fact if you see the in place like Bihar some of the riots that
#
took place around that period most of the perpetrators Hindu perpetrators were
#
the Yadavs. So it created a kind of so and cow became a very easy symbol for
#
them and only when you find only in the 90s or late 80s early 90s after the
#
Mandal happened that we find for some time that cow although the cow movement
#
has been constant has been going on but we find that the Ram temple or something
#
came as a rallying point but otherwise cow has been constant. In fact when 2014
#
these people came to power Kalyan talked in detail about and then Maharashtra
#
government banned it one of the earlier states in 2014 to do it. They were very
#
happy they said now it should be done across India it should be banned across
#
India and there's this whole thing why only few states are doing it. So it was
#
since 1951 election also every election when they tell readers who to vote they
#
don't mention a party they only say that just vote for a party which will do
#
these you know one two three things. So this has been a very very cow has been
#
the most important symbol or the most sacred of things on which they have kind
#
of worked and and Gita Press has a big role to play also because the cross
#
linkages that Gita Press created among other groups there were a lot of other
#
groups exclusively working for cow protection other things and that famous
#
the 60s the cow protection movement which led to attack on Parliament. At least
#
Pudhar was at the helm of it he was a treasurer for long time and Gita Kalyan
#
was kind of if you see Kalyan of that time it was spewing venom. And as you
#
pointed out they had two special issues on cow one was a Gau Ank and then later on
#
Gau Seva Ank which was which happened in the much later it was kind of and I was
#
trying to figure out why is a cow sacred to Hinduism and you quote Peter
#
Vandermeer in your book where again I'll quote from your book a quote
#
Peter Vandermeer asks a question why would people want to die and kill for
#
the protection of cow. He looks at the centrality of the cow at four levels one
#
in Brahmanical rituals a cow is akin to mother or symbol of the earth the
#
nourisher goddess who fulfills every wish come then who symbol of wealth and
#
good fortune Lakshmi who is integral to rituals blah blah blah two sacredness is
#
also attached to cow products like milk dung and urine consumption of milk
#
butter and ghee is believed to make a person sattvic and a mixture of five cow
#
products milk curd butter urine and dung is used to prepare the Panch Gavya that
#
is used to purify a polluted person parenthesis it was offered as a
#
solution for Hindu women who had lost their modesty during the communal riots
#
at the time of partition and we stop parenthesis and we'll come back to it at
#
this when we talk about gender three the symbol of cow as a wish-fulfilling mother
#
of Krishna is celebrated in the bhakti cult and finally Gau Mata was
#
symbolic of both family and community protecting the cow meant reiterating the
#
patriarchal authority like the kingdom of Rama which is a Ramraj they are ideal
#
Hindu state stop quote and it's interesting that once we gain independence
#
and India sort of goes in a different direction you also talk about how cow
#
protection arguments begin to be framed in secular terms such as you know where
#
you for example how they talk about the cows high economic utility they talk
#
about the relationship between the quality of cattle in general prosperity
#
yeah you talk about how national pride is associated with economic prosperity
#
which is brought about by cows and also about how the cow can cement harmonious
#
relationships between Hindus and Muslims see some of these people had they been
#
alive and seen what was happening now what is happening now in the name of cow
#
I'm sure they wouldn't have approved of it because whatever they're doing they
#
were very clear that you know the cow is alive that you how do you get rid of the
#
cow which is all ailing and died on its own okay nobody even if you're not
#
selling it was slaughterhouse everyone knew what was happening to cow but they
#
knew the skin was being used the body parts or whatever you know various ways
#
it's been being used and they were aware of the economic aspect of the whole
#
thing even Rajendra Prasad when he's writing in go on he's talking about it
#
and he's saying that let them die on their own don't give to slaughterhouse
#
they'll and they're constantly they'll invoke example of Saudi Arabia or one of
#
these countries and they'll say oh cows are not slaughtered even there in the
#
example of whom are you or power one of this now what is happening I don't think
#
this would killing I don't know whether they were approving or maybe if had this
#
kind of I had you know the kind of government we have now the full Hindu
#
government been in power maybe it would have happened one doesn't know but that
#
generation was aware of that there has to be some you know resolution to this
#
whole cow thing when a cow is giving me milk helping in various ways at the end
#
of it what to do with cow old ailing cow can a farmer afford five old ailing cow
#
and have new ones also impossible so there was a way and they were aware of it
#
what was happening otherwise how a slaughterhouse is working and how were
#
Hindus running the slaughterhouses and in some of these areas where this
#
movement was very very strong Western UP and other places and in Maharashtra for
#
instance although these podar and all worked very kind of actively to close
#
many slaughterhouses in Bombay they were they had this huge slaughterhouse which
#
got closed in those days I think in the 50s in Bengal Bengal they got certain
#
slaughterhouses closed but they had some model that you know you do you have a
#
pasture land you do this at least they were that's what they talk since they
#
were never in power in those days one doesn't know how it would have kind of
#
panned out but I don't know whether they've approved of what is happening
#
now no and some of the sort of narratives that came up around the cow
#
seemed quite goofy for example you could quote someone called Prabhudad
#
Brahmacharya who prescribed a tenfold path for Hindus and Hindutva to survive
#
and quoting you quote he asked Hindus to keep cows at home even if this meant
#
they had to have fewer motor vehicles yeah stop quote and try telling a modern
#
but the funniest the funniest thing that I found was a Vanaspati controversy
#
yeah see Banaspati this is a vegetable oil so there was this you know there's
#
this famous Jain Banaspati case which happened sometime in the 80s this news
#
I think broken by a journalist I think Manoj Mitta played a big role in it
#
where this whole beef tallow which was being used and some of the Marwadis were
#
involved this class this community was involved and when the time when they're
#
getting very involved with it you find that Gita press early terms very
#
business it's like a business weekly monthly but they even listing out early
#
days they were talking of making this distinction between the companies which
#
use beef tallow and not beef tallow this what the controversy that I'm talking
#
about happened much later and they listed out the companies which were
#
mostly the Marwadi owned companies which were the first one was later on they had
#
to leave this business they abandoned this business because something happened
#
something very controversial which they will not talk about so when it came to
#
you know their business they used Gita press to the Hilton especially in when
#
in a crisis like this Banaspati Ghee controversy so it was used by them in
#
fact and then they what they did also in Banaspati controversy they got more and
#
more people to write on it you know and when it suited they used Gandhi you know
#
so in fact there's again a quote from a book where Gandhi summarizes an article
#
by Dattar Singh yeah and he was also a prominent he was a cow consultant for
#
government and quoting again from your book quote Gandhi summarized Singh's
#
article for wider dissemination Vanaspati he said is a poor substitute
#
for ghee but due to the great margin of profit in this industry its production
#
has developed from 26,000 tons per annum in 1937 to hundred and five thousand
#
tons in 1943 such rapid growth of the Vanaspati industry Gandhi feared will
#
not only adversely affect the welfare of the cultivators but will have a
#
deleterious effect on the cattle industry upon which the prosperity of
#
the whole nation directly depends on and it almost sounds like Basia scandal
#
makers petition that you know block out this and another interesting thing that
#
I didn't know about though I consider myself fairly well informed on Indian
#
politics was the whole sort of the cow slaughter agitations of the 60s which
#
which came to a head as you point out on 7 November 1966 where Delhi
#
witnessed a surge of people estimated between a hundred and twenty five
#
thousand and seven hundred thousand and among the people who address the crowd
#
in front of Parliament were people like Goldwalker, Karpatri Maharaj, Prabhudad
#
Brahmachari, Govindas of the Congress, Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Hanuman Prasad
#
yeah Hanuman Prasad was actually the treasurer of that
#
Goraksha Mahavyaan Samiti he was very very important person in fact and I also
#
mentioned somewhere I think here only when I'm talking about cow how RSS
#
carder he's thanking Goldwalker saying that how your carder helped our people
#
train and all that because of this whole violence which happened and the way they
#
attacked the city especially this Lutyens Delhi got really attacked
#
Menon not Kamaraj's house got vandalized no no some of his stuff got beaten up
#
no and they would always play the victim so even every time there was a riot they would be like no the Muslims started it
#
even in this they played victim but for a change with Indira Gandhi they were like
#
for some time they were really they didn't know that this is the kind of
#
actions is going to take she didn't know that a lot of people who
#
arrested and in Tihar jail will get beaten up either police did it or fellow
#
prisoners were asked to beat them up which is a normal practice in jails in
#
Indian jails that kind of really rattled them they never thought that this will
#
go on for so long so you find this almost what they were doing during the
#
national movement or later during emergency very apologetic tone they
#
almost writing to Indira Gandhi saying that addressing her sister that no we
#
didn't do this we got you got it wrong and the movement completely disappears
#
and because government created its own kind of committee and said we are doing
#
this and they got somehow trapped into this so the movement more or less dies
#
in the aftermath of that much later again and therefore you find there is a
#
little period of lull on cow movement although these groups were constantly
#
working and if you go to place that is a case Brindavan and Mathura Banaras you
#
find these groups existed but they lost that time although Gita press continue
#
to talk about Gita press in his journal will talk and all that so you know so
#
just kind of thinking allowed that like you said that in politics the cow issue
#
waxed and waned and you know now it's back of course but Gita press kept
#
talking about it throughout was it something like did they genuinely expect
#
cows slaughter to at some point in time be banned across the country or was it
#
more of a rhetorical tool to mobilize Hindus both because then they could
#
also see that even post immediately after independence you see what what was
#
happening in UP UP had agreed so they could see even the ambivalence of the
#
Congress government so the Congress leaders on cows although how else was
#
Gobindas addressing who was congressly never left Congress and till he was he
#
was a I think till before that he was member of CWC if you this one
#
Shastri Shastri Shastri Shastri Shastri didn't come out in open but the
#
Gulzari Lal Nanda quit and came in support of the movement so Congress's
#
ambivalence they figured out and it's also you know the cultural thing among
#
Hindus so very few people could make that distinction on cow which Nehru's
#
Western upbringing Nehru's refined man refined thinking he could he could make
#
that distinction that don't do this you'll destroy our economy and he just
#
kept it economy nothing else. In fact people who talked about the cow he called them
#
economically illiterate yeah he was absolutely right he made some big mistakes
#
himself but he was actually when you read that speech he gave in Parliament when
#
their private member bill is moved and he appears in that day in Parliament and
#
he says what are you two people doing and so he could understand he and he
#
never got into this religion mumbo-jumbo religious mumbo-jumbo he said let's
#
skip it to economics if you don't guys don't understand you people talk of
#
rural economy did you realize what this what will do to our rural economy but
#
then so partly it was that then the right wing figured out that cow is
#
something on which very few parties will have the guts to come and Nehru is gone
#
Nehru is dead and gone and so Congress after Nehru if you see it's been a kind
#
of its ambivalence continues till now on certain issues on cow or be it anything
#
even in Parliament just to see on certain bills Congress could have easily
#
come out and kind of opposed it I mean they're on streets where there are cow
#
protection cells and what's happening in Madhya Pradesh or even Rajasthan
#
instances have happened so Congress has always been a lesser evil in these
#
matters and various other things of course are the bigger evils so and of
#
course it becomes a very easy rallying it helps you paper over the large
#
differences within the Hindu society of caste and everything cow is something on
#
which very few people will you know then you only talk of cow for Hindus you're
#
not talking of other things like temple entry movement every time you talk it
#
reveals the great divide divide in the Hindi among Hindus cow doesn't. Let's
#
talk about caste since you brought it up and and you know very early on Podar
#
sort of you know he supports Varna Ashram and okay so before we get to
#
caste there's sort of a broader question that in terms of their beliefs and caste
#
in terms of their beliefs in gender and in both cases their beliefs basically
#
boiled down to you should know your place so within a caste system this is
#
a Varna Ashram this is everybody's place if you're a woman this is your place
#
absolutely discuss that in detail at some point and it all goes back to the
#
whole karma thing that you are where you are because of the misdeeds of your
#
past birth absolutely and therefore there's no need to change it this is
#
your karma playing itself out. Do something well in this life and next life maybe you
#
will be born upper caste. In the long run we won't be born as Cains would have said if he was a Hindu.
#
So caste was very very crucial to them in fact therefore you find right from the
#
beginning even early days in the first few issues of Kalyan also they're
#
talking of basically this Chaturvarna system the Varna Ashram and this is what
#
it is and but only after 1932 once the Pune Pact gets signed is when they're
#
really agitated and the first rupture in relations with Gandhi takes place that
#
how could you and then he is kind of sewing him his old articles or citing
#
old articles of Gandhi to Gandhi and saying that look what you wrote but
#
Gandhi's the good thing what Gandhi was constantly evolving admitting his
#
mistakes he's saying yes I did so what I moved on this is what I think which they
#
could never kind of come to terms with and after that the stress on caste
#
becomes more pronounced in Kalyan and other places and they're constantly and
#
as you go to the extent of saying that you know just because you carry you know
#
the this whole scavengers because because of what you do you have germs in your
#
body imagine saying this and getting away with it yeah they're writing it and
#
getting away with it and kind of terms they use for Ambedkar and because they
#
were in the way angry what he was doing with Hindu code bill Ambedkar and on
#
top of that second he had married a Brahmin woman that kind of got the code
#
in your book you've spoken about how they always called him Hainvarna lower
#
caste imagine addressing Hainvarna Dr. Ambedkar they were very very angry with
#
Ambedkar in fact see Nehru they could still think here he's one among us who's
#
gone you know off his off track but this man yeah it's like Ambedkar and in a
#
similar sense something that reminded me of what even Modi does today is that
#
when it comes to Muslims and refer to Mia Jinnah and Mia Liakhar and you have
#
Modi doing is Mia Musharraf a decade ago yeah and so this is just showing them
#
their place and constantly talking about it they were so worried when he was
#
contesting from two constituencies in Bombay that what if he wins and they
#
could never forgive him for what he did to because of the Hindu code bill even
#
if he resigned and Nehru was also not giving up on Hindu code bill broke it
#
but got it passed and these guys didn't know what to do with him so we will come
#
to the Hindu code will later I found you know one of the letters from
#
Poddar to Gandhi you sort of reproduced was very fascinating where Poddar is
#
writing to Gandhi quote these days a big agitation by Dalits is going on in the
#
country that has intensified due to your fast at various places people are dining
#
with Dalits and they are being allowed inside temples outcome only God knows
#
just like those believing in God and Shastras are accused of blind faith I
#
find that this movement has not only become a victim of blind faith but also
#
there is a lack of discernment even those in favor of dining with Dalits
#
agree though I do not equate dining with them as a mark of equality that they
#
cannot be considered pure unless I have a pure bath where fresh clothes give up
#
alcohol and meat and at least stop feasting on dead cattle only then
#
co-dining makes sense but your common dining in temple entry movement is not
#
even checking if they fulfill those norms and so on he goes off ranting on
#
and on and in the end he says even Pandavas and Kauravas used to dine
#
together but it led to a big battle and it seems as if you know on some of these
#
issues like Dalits and Muslims and cows he almost gets unhinged unhinged and
#
then you realize that okay wasn't this journal supposed to be Bhakti Gyan
#
where I get journal which will talk about Bhakti and knowledge and renunciation
#
look at this man he's just and something would happen then the were like one
#
marriage Gandhi had made this made some announcement that he'll only attend
#
marriages where at least one partner is you know from Dalit come in his Harijan
#
and this comes to podar's notice he says he says he's like almost abusive he said
#
he has lost his mental balance but then at the same time it's very difficult to
#
figure out this matter on the same time you find there's a later which come to
#
him from Jamnalal Bajaj saying that oh Bapu wants you to be part of some
#
journal which was bring out on again on cows or something he says Bapu ke pyaar se
#
mahatma ka kya lehna deyna something he says he makes that distinction that
#
mahatma for the world and you do all those things which I don't approve of
#
but you're my Bapu so at personal level yeah I relate to you okay fine but yeah
#
32 kind of gave them this they just couldn't figure out what has happened to
#
the world you know why people are going on and on talking about this that's very
#
interesting I mean the whole this is almost I mean forgive me if that sounds
#
kind of sacrilegious but this whole journey of Gandhi on caste also is kind
#
of funny where it seems to me that okay at one point he talks about Vanashram
#
and how the castes have their place and basically says the same kind of thing
#
podar would have utterly agreed with and then he goes to this other side where he
#
says that no no we need to dine together and all of that but to me it seems like
#
if you go by some of his actions he's still posturing a bit and Ambedkar kind
#
of sees through it and the Ambedkar
#
they never Ambedkar see even the pact was a bit of a compromise and Ambedkar is
#
always suspicious of him throughout it's not that the relationship ever is very
#
very well you know the kind of relations that Gandhi had with Nehru or something
#
no he and they inhabited different universes it was a very momentary thing
#
what happened in Puri Pact and all that yeah and so Gandhi was in a sense it
#
almost feels like neither ghar ka na ghat ka that he's lost the Gita press and he's
#
lost Ambedkar and he's basically you know all his posturing in the games
#
Gandhi always had enough to move on he was yeah Gandhi was Gandhi didn't care
#
much about these small things of what for that thought or what Ambedkar was
#
doing yeah and the most fascinating parts of your book are parts which
#
actually deal with gender and the remarkable thing is how you point out
#
that even till today yeah they have those same kind of incredibly regressive
#
views yeah and I'm just going to quote a bit yeah I mean I mean their
#
fundamental sort of belief is again quoting from your book in quote
#
independence is not promised to women in the Hindu social structure a woman has
#
to live with a father till marriage with a husband as a married woman and after
#
his demise she has to live either with her son or some other relative she
#
cannot be independent at any cost and a little later while talking about
#
menstruation yeah both are rights I'll quote from your book again presenting is
#
skewed understanding of female sexuality Poddar wrote that during her menstrual
#
period a woman had an uncontrollable urge for sex and to channelize this
#
wasana there is a system of a wasana sexual urge there is a system of
#
marrying girls by the time they attain puberty in the husband shelter a woman's
#
sexual desire does not reach others and she is safe from getting polluted if she
#
is not married her sexual desire degenerates into debauchery just the
#
way it is happening in Europe the core job of a woman was to serve the world
#
how Poddar used two word two terms utpadhan which means manufacturing or
#
production and nirman which means construction or creation thus a woman's
#
job was to procreate and nurture quality men stop good and you know when I was
#
actually writing that period this part my niece was my daughter was very small
#
Susan I think she was still in class seventh or something so I made her read it I said
#
what do you think of this I made them read that pamphlet that's what you think
#
of it I made my niece who's elder and who's in going to engineering college so
#
I better read it is this what you're writing so they were not very sure what
#
what I have to do with that so I said well this is what it is and still being
#
sold say it's three term personal three I the last one when my Hindi translation
#
was being done and I lost my own copy I picked it up from the railway I had gone
#
to drop some on the railway station I got it and just look at the circulation
#
it's something produced in 1926 getting sold in 2019 has a constituency has a
#
readership selling more than Chetan Bhagat then what is happening someone
#
somewhere is reading it and even 10% I don't know what percentage I have no
#
figures but someone is getting influence too so what is happening when you see
#
this strange kind of things happening outside the urban spaces you realize
#
that people are getting influence what is being done to women in term in just
#
controlling their sexuality basically control you know using whatever with an
#
absurd logic yeah and basically the whole deal is that a woman's only job is
#
to make her husband yeah world and to serve the inner space yeah internal
#
that's the four walls of the house and just procreate that's it you have no
#
other job and and you know in this context one of the things I noticed in
#
your book though you don't always call it out as such but it's is that what
#
Kalyan is also doing what Paddar is doing is a lot of what today we would
#
call fake news they are just randomly and I and I found a few examples of
#
these and like in one place you say quote Paddar cited a Labour MP speech in the
#
British Parliament in which he reportedly said 40% of girls under 20 got
#
pregnant before marriage and among married women the first child was
#
illegitimate in 25% of the cases which is complete rubbish and there was a
#
similar thing from Lahore about how all the girls over 12 are pregnant
#
and one that is not and okay but another one Paddar claimed without
#
substantiation that sexually transmitted diseases were prevalent among 50% of
#
students and another one which is not related to gender but I found it so
#
funny was a quote one of Gandhi's associates telling people in Gujarat
#
that cow fat was mixed in the manufacture of foreign cloth or a
#
leaflet stating that a thousand pounds of colored Manchester cloth consisted of
#
300 pounds of cow and big blood stop quote this is how they propagate it no
#
no substantiation nobody will ask someone will print it so we are now
#
worried of fake news from in social media which is still your print is still
#
more or less still all right you know and then it was happening in print you
#
know and it was everyone was doing it. The most popular Heartland magazine reaching
#
everyone and you don't have any Pratik Sena or Alt News. You randomly are saying
#
Labour MP who is this Labour MP then they will quote some study about
#
something happened to the generation of women who what study which study they
#
will never mention it and there's other stuff like for example at a later point
#
he is in the 1948 Nariyank Puddar sort of glorifies Sati and his narrative
#
rests on his genuine scientific belief when you put scientific in the court
#
parts of course that fire can emanate from a distraught widow's shoulder and
#
heart so he's saying no one sets a woman on fire but if she is pativrata and a
#
virtuous woman her sorrow for a husband will make her spontaneously combust
#
which she calls a scientific and this stuff is just nuts and millions of
#
people are reading it. Yeah reading it mind you Nariyank is still in circulation
#
Nariyank is very much it keeps getting reprinted and Nariyank is one of these
#
year-end specials. At the beginning of the year they have special which is like
#
thousand page special. You have all these? Yeah I have. All of these? Yeah I have kept all of it. I should have asked you to bring one. Yeah I have all of Nariyank, Hinduank, everything I have all the issues. And what is the noise to signal ratio like how
#
much of this is this bullshit kind of fake news nonsense and how much is
#
actually well-reasoned stuff. See when it comes to women I'll say 100% is
#
bullshit. Of course. On cow they were doing both the things. See Go Sevang comes at a
#
time for instance when the movement is at its lowest step so it's talking it is
#
very economic in nature. This is 90s or something. This is 90s 93 or something if I'm getting
#
there you're right. So by then the movement was not there you know Ram
#
temple movement was at the center stage. It has some things it has few articles
#
by experts which is talking of how to make economic use of cow which is fine.
#
You can even sense change of narrative. Then it's not a strident. They're trying
#
to make it sound. Therefore they made that distinction of Goank which
#
had already come and they're making Go Sevang. Where was the they were
#
discussing economics of it and various other aspects. Otherwise see they will
#
always throw this shastras or some sutras or some slokas or something which
#
ordinary reader I don't know how many of them would understand. I'm not saying
#
because I myself never cross check when it came to the religious texts so I am
#
not in a position to comment on that. But yes when you claim the scientific study
#
on women or Sati or women burning on their own because of some combustion
#
happening inside it's like what do you do to that. You know you're right if you
#
read you just freaks you out you know. What do you do with this such thing you
#
know. Yeah and for example I mean a lot of their stands to do with gender are
#
crazy like they were against birth control. So again quoting from your book
#
quote Poddar saying encouraging artificial methods is like encouraging
#
evil artificial methods of birth control. It makes men and women frivolous.
#
Artificial methods would result in impotence and decline in sperm count.
#
This remedy would prove to be worse than the disease. Elsewhere he's ranting
#
against cinema and he says quote first and foremost female actor should be
#
thrown out completely. They are the root cause of all evil. Second film should
#
not consist of anything that perverts a mind. There will be hungama at first but
#
then people will get used to the changes. Stop quote and it's interesting that
#
while all this is happening what Poddar has done and probably shows a genius as
#
an editor and you alluded to it earlier is that he has an extremely wide cast
#
of contributors to you know it's not just a typical Hindu nationalist in the
#
No no no it was very very smart that way and you know you have people like Radhakrishnan
#
writing for him. Some issues Radhakrishnan was not writing on controversy. He was a
#
philosopher he kept to that. He didn't get into areas which he was not. Gandhi
#
Gandhi wrote a lot. Nehru is the only one which even he got the big
#
Hindi writers to write you know Premchand to Nirala to everyone and
#
they'll privately say what to do we don't know anything but because of his
#
aura, his charm whatever it is even Premchand wrote. Nirala wrote. I think
#
among that generation of Hindi writers Maithili Saranggupt was the only one who
#
wrote enthusiastically or Hari Aad maybe but others were not very keen
#
someone like Nirala who was too irreverent to get into this but then well
#
and it's almost like Poddar has like strategically decided that okay what do
#
I do to make it as respectable this way as possible one get all the politicians
#
to get all the Hindi literatures yeah three get people from other religions
#
other religions also and four get a people from abroad so it gained them a
#
lot of respect because of that you know and and it helped build a huge network
#
and let's move on now to the next theme and this is not really a theme as just
#
an underlying backdrop to all of this which is their attitudes towards Muslims
#
I mean even if they had a few Muslim writers is that there's a lot of this
#
constant baiting when Jinnah is mentioned as Mia Jinnah when Lilitha is
#
mentioned it's and in part of the narrative of Sanatan Dharm has this pure
#
religion that has existed from time immemorial is also a specific narrative
#
they're building up of Muslims for example again quoting from your book
#
you write integral to the narrative was a depiction of Muslim men as the other
#
libidinous sexually dissipated and voluptuously lustful from whom Hindu
#
women had to be protected at all costs and later you write how the Hindu
#
nationalist organization like Gita Press called on Hindu women not only to avoid
#
lag bangles but also not to board horse carts written driven by Muslims not to
#
keep Muslim servants not to invite Muslims prostitutes or singers and joyous
#
occasion not to buy household items from Muslims and so on and so forth and so
#
it's not just a cultural narrative of the saving your women from the lustful
#
Muslim male but there's also the economic purpose of cutting of patronage
#
from so you find actually a lot a lot for is happening you see the roots there
#
you know during even on Hindu court bill maybe we'll discuss it later but you
#
find that similar thing was happening as far as the love jihad and all similar
#
arguments were happening and so Muslims kept coming to their narrative one way
#
or the other when they discuss cow Muslims come when they discuss women
#
Muslims come you know you protect your cows from the Muslims because they
#
consume you protect your Indian women because men are Muslim men are
#
libidinous that is considered a compliment if a woman is like a cow yeah
#
and yeah and it also there is a deep-seated inferiority complex vis-a-vis
#
Muslim men you find them that there is something about Muslim men why are Hindu
#
women attracted and this I found not only in Kalyan but even in some of the
#
contemporary journals for instance there was this journal pretty popular called
#
Hindu punch I have some issues of that journal and you'll find that this is
#
they're constantly talking about it there's something wrong about us about
#
our women why are they so attracted to Muslim men and they're gonna do
#
very graphic reasons which one may not talk about but so it comes from a deep
#
inferiority complex where do you think this insecurity comes from like is it
#
just a historical narrative before they invaded us and raped our women and all
#
of that or is it also something contemporary where they find that Muslim
#
men are just more virile and they're dominated that's the no that's the
#
narrative of if you ask any pracharak privately he'll tell you this virile
#
thing that you know them over else therefore they need four wives so you
#
build their own world even if you ask them how many Muslim men they know in
#
these times were four wives forget for even two wives they don't have any name
#
you know but this how the bill and so the interesting part is that how this
#
narrative is still alive today it's not only alive it's doing very well actually
#
and space in the last six years now more than five years yeah and one wonders
#
whether there is any logical end to this or it's just a really great way to sort
#
of mobilize the troops so to say let's kind of now talk about the Gita presses
#
rising involvement in politics from the 40 onwards because as you pointed out
#
when they started it was like a cultural thing they didn't really get involved in
#
politics even though Bouddhar was close to a lot of politicians but they didn't
#
really get involved in this certainly they were never against a British in
#
any way no but there were a number of sort of hot buttons which came up in as
#
a 40s came on and one as independence approach was partition tell me a bit
#
about that partition see partition just like as I told you during 30s when the
#
caste thing came about they turned they forgot what the journal was meant to do
#
40s it became more so 40s in fact so much so that in 46 one of their issue
#
which was called Malviya had to be banned by the United Province
#
government it was so communal it was so communal it also had the last interview
#
given by Madan Mohan Malviya he died in November I mean I believe this is the
#
first time that it is special they did a special issue for anyone they never did
#
it for anyone in that they have not done it till now on anyone I mean when Bouddhar
#
died that they did a special issue no I don't think I must be mistaken you know
#
I don't think so I didn't come across any so and then it was so communal and
#
you know from and what it was doing was it was getting information from all the
#
newspapers their kind of newspaper you know many newspapers which they thought
#
was kind of furthering the Hindu cause and they were talking only of violence
#
and they were very selective in news in fact at one point Bouddhar says some of my
#
friends are saying that how come you're only writing about Muslims killing
#
Hindus okay so Hindus also killing Muslims he admits very grudgingly the
#
entire period if you see from 44 onwards till almost 47 they're very very upset
#
they're trying to especially the ones that realize that Pakistan is a reality
#
now there's no going back then they become even more so now they have added
#
grouse that well you listen to Muslims have given them so now it's the time
#
for us to turn to become a Hindu Rashtra okay Muslims are gone good now we become
#
a Hindu Rashtra and then they find the constant assembly this gentleman Nehru
#
is discussing in the court bill which freaks them out and that entire period
#
44 45 to 47 till Gandhi's assassination or before Gandhi's assassination the
#
entire Kalyan becomes a rabidly common issue after issue on everything you know
#
they ran this one Bidya Charan Sukla's father who was member of the constant
#
assembly and again party again on the side he was among this right-wing
#
element within Congress he wrote a multi he wrote a serial four part series or
#
three part series on what should happen to Hindi you know and very very
#
particular about how it should not get polluted how those would be done away
#
with it was a long and a four part series imagine so they were kind of
#
bothered about everything so what should happen post 47 now it has happened but
#
on the violence itself and then there's this famous which I call a fake news in
#
what this Bengali woman this pamphlet which they produce all over which gets
#
noted in Bombay we noticed in Bombay Elabad Gorakhpur and frankly who is this
#
woman nobody knows and Kalyan because of its circulation it was reaching ordinary
#
Hindu homes it was and in a way it became for RSS and various other
#
organizations it was very easy vehicle to get their point across in fact entire
#
1946 Gorakhpur session of Hindu Mahasabha the resolutions that they pass you find
#
Kalyan reproducing it in a different form as a set of demands that they had
#
from the now New India which was minus the Muslims because the Pakistan had
#
come up which is like even now you find that those same things someone or the
#
other is talking about especially since 2014 and what kind of struck me was like
#
on the one hand they're very frustrated because they're like the Muslims got
#
their Pakistan but whereas our Hindu Rashtra I think they use the term khichri
#
for what they were left with and I love khichri I think is great but on the other
#
hand there's almost in some places I sensed a little bit of glee that this is
#
an opportunity for them to push their agenda for example quoting from a book
#
about Noah Kali you say quote the Hindu Mahasabha which had dispatched senior
#
leaders like Ashutosh Lairie, Sama Prasad Mukherjee, NC Chatterjee and
#
Pandit Narendra Naad Das to Noah Kali for relief work did not fail to see the
#
long-term gain for the community and now you quote within that not withstanding
#
this great catastrophe it is a matter of satisfaction to the members of the
#
relief committee to see a keen sense of fellow feeling now awakened amongst all
#
Hindus in every province of India stop code so people are being slaughtered on
#
both sides and they see it as an opportunity continue with the
#
polarization see had Gandhi not been assassinated in 48 these guys would have
#
been in power much much earlier maybe not in 51 52 they would have come to
#
power maybe by 57 or max 62 election really yeah this Gandhi assassination
#
kept them it was set back for 20 years so you find them coming back to you know
#
making noise only in the 60s sometime you know 65 election Jansang otherwise
#
they were in the they were there of course they were strong perimeter Jansang
#
was very much there but they never post challenge and the generation of
#
people they just couldn't come to terms with this assassination they wouldn't
#
have won 47 other if Gandhi was not assassinated these guys would have come
#
much earlier and I think you know that also brings me to the question of that
#
is our nation's destiny then from that time the way things have unveiled and
#
unraveled purely a question of happenstance and dumb luck whether good
#
luck or bad luck is depends on how you look at it that there was absolutely
#
just one guy who was against this tide and that was an arrow and he is a guy who
#
happened to be Prime Minister who happened to outlive all these other guys
#
like your Patel's and whatever Nehru and the whole generation I'll not say Nehru
#
alone because the whole generation of people even his lot of his colleagues
#
of his party man but the other dominant political figures like Patel like Panth
#
like Rajendra Prasad were also yeah they were but still let's say the larger the
#
new India the fervor of new India which you wanted to build was very much in
#
there there will lot of people who subscribe to that belief otherwise you
#
know these institutions that Nehru built lot of things wouldn't have happened but
#
yes this otherwise somewhat explains in 2014 this is a question that I've been
#
asking to lot of people I ask myself this deep-seated anger among suddenly
#
you discover among your friends your relatives whom you have known forever
#
where was this all this while why did it need 2014 election result for this kind
#
of anger there has to be very deep-seated you know otherwise and now
#
people don't even care whether when they abuse Muslims in drawing rooms or
#
middle-class drawing rooms or anywhere it's no long even I remember during
#
batch pays six years it was not so blatant it was but not so blatant maybe
#
there was no whatsapp so we don't know can I attempt one theory please yeah so
#
there's this sociologist called Timur Quran who in 98 or 99 wrote this book
#
called public lies and private truths yeah something of that sort and he came
#
up with the phrase preference falsification where he gave the example
#
of the Soviet Union where he says that look the Soviet Union appeared to fall
#
overnight as if the tide of public opinion changed suddenly but it didn't
#
happen like that what was happening was everybody might have been against the
#
government but everybody was afraid to speak out and they all thought they were
#
alone which is preference falsification and suddenly there was a what he calls a
#
preference cascade where people suddenly begin to realize that everybody else is
#
also things like them and that emboldens them and validates their beliefs and
#
then they can speak openly and I think what happened and I've written about
#
this as well what happened in 2014 was because of social media the growth of
#
social media in the five six years before that a lot of people who I call
#
closet bigots yeah but whatever without using derogatory terms a lot of people
#
who felt a certain way but thought they should not say it in polite society
#
suddenly realized number one that there are many many more people who feel like
#
yeah exactly that validates their beliefs that emboldens them to speak out
#
and the shoe is on the other foot and and and that's 24 I mean that was just my
#
no no that's absolutely it's a it's I entirely agree with this otherwise how
#
did this happen you know this like you know and it's continuing in 2019 for
#
instance everyone thought there'll be you know there'll be judged on
#
performance and as we were discussing before the recording demoralization
#
happened and protest not a protest that one knows of you know getting angry in a
#
queue is not a protest you know that's Indians are used to getting angry when
#
you're queuing up at the airport or railway station anywhere or it's
#
hospital but and it happened destroyed livelihoods destroyed lives and nothing
#
matters to the people anymore and it's a triumph of narrative and in a sense it's
#
a triumph of the Gita press triumph of Gita press you know this is the kind of
#
the way we're just saying things constantly whether you read it not read
#
it you will see it it's like the the classic coke ad you know they'll when you
#
go to watch the Hollywood movies in America they'll say drink coke eat
#
popcorn there was some catch line which I've forgotten and they will do it so
#
many times that you will be at the end of it you'll say I might as well go and
#
have something you know so this constantly talking about cow women
#
Muslim the other and when you place facts before people you know people the
#
class that you and I belong to and tell them tell me how many Muslims that you
#
know who have done extremely well in life who have taken away your job damn
#
it I don't see Muslim kids in my kids school you know how many Muslim kids
#
that she has friends in school in college how many Muslim friends I had
#
and what are they taking away then no and there's like like I remember this
#
incident with this friend of mine who's done an MBA from a top school has an
#
absolute top job in the corporate sector and one day we were just chilling and he
#
said that Amit there's one statistic which really scares me and I said what
#
is it and he said you know the the Hindu birth replacement rate is so and so and
#
he takes 1.9 or something and the Muslim rate is 9 and I just started laughing I
#
said that bro you know it this is not even something you need to fact check or
#
Google or whatever just common sense that this is complete rubbish and and you
#
find so many and then you think that no they're believing this because they want
#
to believe this they want to believe it and when you place these facts they're
#
not they will not agree they'll say no how have you got this from what is this
#
from you know therefore someone like say Pratik Sinha doing something what he
#
does it's like really hats off great personal risk I mean he's a great
#
personal risk he's based in a great hero if you ask me I you know the couple of times I have sent him few
#
things on Twitter DMed in that you know and I found that he figured this out and
#
it was brought in public domain but then again how many people are on Twitter
#
it's the whatsapp which is the most dangerous which is where all the
#
religious jokes to everything and how quick they are when every failure which
#
happens like that day Chandrayaan first attempted in go for purely scientific
#
reasons which is fine what happens all over the world but they took it in a
#
completely different way I got few forwards which said why this is you know
#
this was a they gave it a new twist to it we should then there no business to
#
do and and and you will find that everyone and the enough takers for such
#
narrative no and and also that depressing whatsapp forward there was
#
about so many countries have moons on their flags but we have a flag on the
#
moon at which point I'm thinking what's the point you know what are you going to
#
do with the millions of jobless people in this country you're gonna send them
#
send them nobody is worried about this it's insane to kind of get back to the
#
subject of the Gita press and politics and you know you brought up the Hindu
#
court bill a couple of times and I do want to talk about that and I also want
#
to talk about that because there's a larger question I want to ask you which
#
is a very difficult larger question which is the relationship between the state
#
and society yeah right like I had Rahul Verma the political scientist on my show
#
a while back and he was talking about one of the two ideological cleavages in
#
India we have different ideological cleavages from the West according to him
#
the left right doesn't really apply here and one of those ideological cleavages
#
is statism that what is the role of the state in relation to society and whereas
#
the Western conception the post-enlightenment conception would be
#
that you know the state sort of you need the state for there to be society
#
because someone's got to protect your rights and blah blah blah but the Hindu
#
conception according to him in the conception which all these Hindu
#
nationalists and the Gita press people would share is that no society has
#
existed from before the purpose of the state is to serve society which to a
#
certain degree even I agree with but the kind of society that I view where
#
individual rights are protected and so on is completely different from these
#
people's vision of it but nevertheless their fundamental point is that our
#
society is what it is for a reason and the state has no business interfering in
#
it and and this greater philosophical dilemma is what is again at the heart of
#
the Hindu code bill what do you think about this yes in fact Hindu code bill
#
I was talking to someone while researching that Hindu code bill and he
#
said that you know the greatest suspicion which Hindus have or at least
#
this prominent Hindu groups RSS or this Hindu Parishad or Mahasabha had at that
#
point was and it Hindu code bill they face successfully see the government
#
managed to bring the bills eventually from broken into four but they managed
#
the Hindu right groups managed to be this smart here you know why only this
#
communities so this narrative of state only trying to do something to Hindus
#
not to Muslim so that is a great rejoice upon what comment has done more among
#
Hindus than I among Muslim women I think or this triple talaq all the Muslim
#
women I know my friends everyone no one thinks that is such a big deal it's not
#
relevant to them but you find that Hindus are suddenly like more worried
#
about Muslim women than anything else they think it's you did this to us state
#
did this to us the great secular state of Nehru did this to us in the 50s so
#
now it's your turn and for whatever reason they think triple talaq is the
#
biggest problem facing Muslim women which it is not but anyway so yes they
#
have a suspicion and they also have been very successfully managed to create
#
cultivate this thing that state has always been after them and say and 60
#
years and the entire Congress rule years of Congress rule as seen as basically
#
anti-Hindu years and which they have successfully so every time so Nehru has
#
to be invoked therefore you know what this happened the other day Mithsa is
#
saying something about that in Kashmir this happened because of Nehru then the
#
this where Priyanka Gandhi went Eastern UP yogi is saying you know this was done
#
during Congress through this funny now it's becoming absurd actually you know
#
Nehru's actually you forget Nehru the real person Nehru's become like a
#
mythological figure like Ravana I think in Dasera they'll put up a Nehru
#
there is a land dispute someone goes and kills ten Dalits and you're saying
#
because of their what Congress rule did in between you also rule BJP rule for
#
long BJ UP what so this is becoming bit comical actually now no and honestly
#
look what I would say is that there are a lot of criticisms that I can level
#
against Nehru's economic policies he was full of his flaws yeah absolutely but
#
this is good just taking it taking it to a new level like you said you know you
#
can't parody this shit not becoming a joke that some killing happens and then
#
you're blaming Congress rule of the 50s what you do right and and another
#
slightly you know and I found this very funny you know it was a hot button once
#
it's no longer a hot button but once upon a time it was a hot button and a
#
big cause for the Gita press which is communism yeah okay it was it was it was
#
in fact they were worried because directly see it was most prominent in Bengal and
#
that's where the Marwari's the good old Marwari world existed in Calcutta
#
shift to Bombay happened much later in fact even now so the big Marwari
#
companies still have or work out of they dominate Calcutta they dominate even now
#
they dominate and they even fund films in Bombay from there so and this was a real
#
child and you have to give it to them they figured this out much before in
#
fact they were they were having this two-part series article on Samyavad in
#
Russia and all kinds of and somehow again this some deprivation you need to
#
bring it everything down to women you know they'll say yeah communism mean a
#
subse jada problem Milo ke saath hota and then they will say that one woman has
#
to have a relationship with 20 men all kinds of absurd unfounded you know
#
woman exists for society so anyone can have any kind of relationship with women
#
so I think they realize that this immediately strikes a chord among the
#
readers of people that you know this is what the new ideology is all about and
#
they were early on to realize that this is going to create problem for them in
#
Bengal because Bengal forever has been you know right from the beginning of the
#
20th century even before that Marwari's have been there in Bengal so you have to
#
the figured out built good alliance with RSS groups others even saying in one
#
later they're saying that we have to learn from the this communists also how
#
they do this pamphlets so we have to do the pamphlets we have to learn and do
#
similar thing otherwise will be finished and the recent results in the Lok Sabha
#
elections you know you mentioned their views of communism and how that went to
#
women and I have to quote this because I'm sorry I find this so funny if
#
someone's offended and I apologize but I just find this hilarious quote among
#
several example of Karpatri's regressive views this is Karpatri Maharaj
#
among several examples of Karpatri's regressive views are most offensive
#
whereas statements on women the new concept of women workers and the liberty
#
it provided them a product of the Industrial Revolution common to both
#
capitalist and communist ideologies was considered a threat to the Hindu social
#
order where a woman was limited the domestic sphere as daughter wife or
#
mother Karpatri said Lenin had challenged the concept of Pativrata
#
Nari devoted wife in Marxism since everything was state-owned there was no
#
need for a woman to be in a relationship with one man as there were no laws of
#
inheritance and private ownership of property Karpatri said a woman became
#
like a bucket of water that could quench the thirst of many men stop quote this
#
is how they used to yeah and then and this man is absolutely revered by no but he
#
became bit of a later years he became a liability even in fact he was he wanted
#
his whole take was in the rural economy a very regressive rural economy even
#
Johnson beyond a point dumped him I think he did well in the first election
#
for I got some six seven say I got few seats in two elections they did and then
#
slowly he sang and this book itself is hilarious it's a fact volume which I
#
consider a lot of people have been asking me lend me a volume I lend me
#
this volume I said what if you promise to return it this is an English
#
translation of it I had in fact had asked Gita press people they said no
#
nobody translates I can I don't know who will have the guts to do it's a fat
#
volume just fine going in all directions here and another thing I found very
#
funny was how the Gita present strategizes that they are going to
#
co-opt communism and they're going to contrast Russian communism with an
#
Indian communism which they claimed originated in Hinduism and I'm again
#
going to quote a delightful book from your bed where you say quote two
#
similarities were noted between Indian and Russian communisms the first would
#
delight even the most serious of political theorists it said that Lord
#
Krishna the originator of Indian communism dallyed with gopies hardworking
#
milkmaids just as the fathers of Russian communism were involved with humble
#
peasants and workers the second similarity was more to the point both
#
versions were aimed at the betterment of the poor and downtrodden stop-court and
#
it's and then another writer called Charuchandra Mitra argued that the
#
basic mantra of communism from each according to his ability to each
#
according to his need was already practiced in India through the joint
#
family system they're like but you have a good to them for trying at least they
#
were trying to get on to for a religious journal to be aware of this danger all
#
the way they dealt with this danger is very funny and is like very unscholarly
#
that's but that's how they were you know but for them it was really in fact see
#
there's this side of podar which I wanted to write more I found few
#
instances he had also become a big figure to in the in matters of business
#
for Marwadis for instance when this whole fight when this whole Dalmia cement
#
and ACC thing is happening everyone is asking him to intervene because ACC was
#
a big MNC coming it would have destroyed Dalmia cement and what he does is he
#
somehow he plays some role whereby they come together actually that becomes it's
#
a sub becomes Dalmia as he see the creators join group rather than fighting
#
like the elder statesman and much later also even when you find the Dalmia he
#
was very closely associated with Dalmia family even small matters when the
#
entire separation took place of Times of India chance moved out from the father-in-law
#
Dalmia South Antiprasad Jan and the matter went to court the Vivian
#
Commission report they say that it is a limited company it's a listed company
#
and they're completely disregarding the shareholders they're taking all the
#
decisions and they're saying how did you take the decision they're saying
#
because bhaiji did told us and bhaiji is saying them in a very you know good
#
old banya way of dividing property or business which is not entirely yours
#
you have shareholders you know you're answerable to them and so he was
#
playing a big role even in that Vivian Bose Commission report is full of
#
podar actually so this man had a his foot everywhere you know so here's a
#
question that kind of strikes me and tell me what you think of this my
#
observation when I finished the book in contextualizing it to the current times
#
was that for much of the last few decades the movement at the Gita press
#
was spearheading with the alliance that it built together of all the Hindu
#
groups in the Mahasabha RSS and so on the movement that it was spearheading
#
had success within the culture but not within politics it was a cultural
#
success but not a political success and I'm just wondering whether today that
#
they've gained this enormous political success there is also a slight cultural
#
downswing because of the dual forces of globalization and urbanization that
#
while it may seem that okay the project has succeeded could it be said that
#
actually culturally as we become more and more exposed to the globe as we are
#
say incorporating hip-hop in a film like Gully Boy or as more and more people are
#
getting aspirational in different ways than they would earlier and as more and
#
more of India is urbanizing which you know tends to put people together more
#
squeezed together and less likely to discriminate because they are part of
#
those economic networks for self-interest and again I'm just
#
completely speculating and I think you'd be better I I'm not really sure whether
#
see all this has happened but how do you kind of explain some of these people who
#
also do and I'm just giving an example of friend I don't want to name him who
#
is was completely postmodern in his when it comes to his choice of music or even
#
some bit of literature but extremely conservative and I've asked him and he
#
said that it coexists for instance how does one explain the grand success of
#
article 15 okay and Kabir what is that movie Kabir Singh so I was telling
#
this friend of mine he said you know both of them have made money what is
#
happening to our society article 15 also made money it was it's a successful
#
movie which is very serious movie well a lot of my Dalit activist friends are
#
upset over other reasons which is fine which one can argue but as a mainstream
#
yeah as a mainstream film it has done very well and it almost coincided with
#
Kabir Singh which is supposed to be kind of a money spinner made some 200
#
crores so what is happening to our society I don't know we're becoming more
#
cosmopolitan global as you said but it's like what one of my another friend says
#
that it's a NRI phenomena which is now we see more here you know you want to
#
make your money working for the MNC's when it comes to vote you want to vote
#
for a guy who is like socially conservative God knows what he so this
#
is some bit of it is happening here otherwise you know let's just look at
#
all the NRI crowd you know all of us have our NRI relatives who like
#
completely vouching for completely conservative politics then if they had
#
the way Pakistan would not exist this they're sitting in New York or sitting
#
in London is very easy for them it would spontaneously combust so I really don't
#
know how this these things are happening to our society we are becoming so
#
culturally this project as you said there is a downslide to it there's a
#
down maybe it will happen because it has to happen because in last five years we
#
have seen nothing and we have been seeing it even otherwise but now past
#
five years have been very pronounced on your face like we have we are there you
#
take it you have no choice you live it as someone other day said that you know
#
this in this Guardian article on Turkish intellectuals of what they did those
#
just simply said your time is over you know to that good old now bad word
#
called liberals similar thing is happening in India but for how long
#
whether this will continue whether people will forget the the jobs there
#
other things and continue with to be part of this project and vote for us
#
party which only talks of religion talks of segregation talks of hate I don't
#
know then what what you said is really thought-provoking in terms of article
#
15 and Kabir Singh both doing well and it strikes me that it doesn't mean that
#
in this large country with millions of people that entirely different audiences
#
watch those two films I think there must be many people who watched both films
#
and like them for different reasons like them for different people contain my
#
it's completely Fox pieces care houses both the movies doing well because I
#
guess if I'm again thinking aloud and maybe this is simplistic but Kabir
#
Singh might appeal to certain impulses that people have and article 15 may
#
appeal to the more rational side of and obviously what people like you and me
#
hope for is that the rationality wins out in the long run yeah so I'll end this
#
episode by asking you a question I ask many of my guests on whatever subject
#
we're discussing that looking into the future and I normally say 10 years but
#
in this case because you know your book has covered a century and all of that
#
I'll give it a slightly longer span looking into the future over the next
#
30 years what gives you despair and what gives you hope about the state of Indian
#
society first the despair my despair is because despair is that our institutions
#
will be destroyed beyond redemption so badly and when I talk of institution I
#
don't mean one in the city here one in the city there the larger fabric of the
#
way the Supreme Court the RBI you know and the discourse the narrative and the
#
institution the discourse discourse for all time to come I think it's vitiated
#
for a long long time and it's not going to go away so easily you have poison and
#
I talked to my daughter also who's 18 year old university going girl and she
#
tells me things which is not at times it gives me great I mean it makes me very
#
way despair but then I also see bookstores I see I meet people who who
#
are worried I meet my young students again at the same time who who tell you
#
that they don't approve if you go for Lickfest might not be the exact answer
#
to say because these are happening in very urban spaces that these are
#
children who brought up in a very different way but even in small towns
#
I've been to a few small towns also and I see there's some bit of in the long
#
run I think the Constitution to sum it up in the long run I think the
#
Constitution will be upheld we will and and the institution like say for instance
#
media this can't go on for long nobody will read you media also know media has
#
lost its credibility while serving one party certain government they've lost
#
the credibility so and at the same time even the mainstream media has failed you
#
have a parallel media which has given us hope which is and what will be without
#
hope you know and we have seen societies around us we have not suffered as much
#
as Pakistan has suffered or Turkey is suffering or various other states so and
#
they've come out of it in various with their fought so I'm sure people will
#
fight this can't go on this this the sarad of nationalism this whole thing
#
will not go on and our Kichri is a resilient Kichri yeah our Kichri is a
#
resilient Kichri it has to survive that's the only way we can survive you
#
know all of us Akshay I'm so honored that you gave me so much of your time
#
today thank you so much for coming it was real pleasure talking to you I mean
#
had this kind of discussion a long long time thank you thanks if you enjoyed
#
listening to this episode do head on over to your nearest bookstore online or
#
offline and pick up a copy of Geeta Press and the making of Hindu India by
#
Akshay Mukul in this episode we merely touch the surface I have a few thousand
#
words of note so it's a remarkable book with a lot of depth please pick it up
#
you can follow Akshay on Twitter at Akshay Mukul one word A K S H A Y A M U K U L
#
you can follow me at Amit Verma A M I T B A R M A you can browse past episodes of
#
The Seen in the Unseen at www.seenunseen.in, www.thinkprakati.com and www.ivmpodcast.com
#
The Seen in the Unseen is supported by the Takshashila Institution an
#
independent center for research in education and public policy Takshashila
#
offers 12 week courses in public policy technology policy and strategic studies
#
for both full-time students and working professionals visit takshashila.org.in
#
for more details thank you for listening
#
filter coffee is a fascinating beverage you need to pick the right beans blend
#
them in the right proportion roast them to perfection and slow brew at the right
#
temperature to get the perfect cup which is exactly like great conversations as
#
well you need to track down the most interesting minds get them into their
#
zone and settle down for an unhurried unscripted chat and coffee for me is
#
always always always best enjoyed with friends I'm Karthik Nagarajan and do
#
share my table as I meet some of the most interesting people I know and sit
#
them down for a strong cup of coffee and an even stronger conversation join me
#
every Wednesday for a freshly brewed episode this is not frappe this is the
#
hi I'm Satyajit hi I'm Rachetha we are from the open library project and we
#
host a podcast called paperback paperback is a podcast where we engage
#
with stalwarts and experts from various industries suggesting nonfiction titles
#
that contributed to their journey in a big way we've had guests like Anjali
#
Raina, Dr. Marcus Rani, Dr. Swati Lodha, Ambhi Parmeswaran, Apurva Damani and many
#
more on our show paperback find new episodes every Wednesday on IVM podcast
#
app website or wherever you listen to podcasts
