Ep 249： Dial C For Snehal Pradhan

There will at any point of the day be some former cricketer, current cricketer, either shopping or sitting there and chatting and talking about stuff.

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So I picked up a lot from there, picked up a lot from her advice, which is just watch the game closely.

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Sometimes more than the actual commentary, I learn from the actions that are happening on the field,

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because with commentary, you have to kind of be in the moment, immediately move from the previous ball to the next ball.

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Can't deep dive into what's happened, why it's happened, how you can make it happen for you.

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So it's more about just watching and trying to adapt that.

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I remember when we first got a sense of, you know, strong guidance in terms of one of the seniors who played for our team, Amrita Shinde,

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who's been another mentor of mine, when she came into the team and she wasn't playing for Maharashtra, she was playing for Air India for a few years.

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But when the BCCI took over and when Air India team disbanded because they didn't find a place in the domestic tournament, which mirrored the men's tournament,

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she came back and a few other senior players who were playing for Air India came back and she brought with her,

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I mean she just took upon herself to pass on this knowledge to us, again while side by side trying to resurrect her international career.

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And we probably, you know, contributed a lot that she was not able to focus on that, we were all troublesome teenagers.

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But she brought exposure to the international level firstly, she already played international cricket.

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She had been in a professional environment, Air India is a team which employed women's cricketers on a yearly contract basis.

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So they were basically not doing anything else, they were not studying, they were not side by side working any other jobs, they were playing cricket all the time.

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They had coaches, they had interaction with not just coaches but also the best of other international players

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because the Air India team at the time was Joolang Goswami, Anjum Chopra, Anju Jain, Karuna Jain, Jaya Sharma, no not Jaya Sharma, but you know all these kind of players.

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So that entire knowledge factory she brought back and revolutionized the kind of way we used to train, revolutionized the drills we used to do,

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just made us think in a very different way about how we should be approaching regular nets.

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And the result of our performance was outstanding, I mean in that first, I think in the first three years after the BCC I took over,

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Maharashtra reached three finals and yes, I mean it was great that we had three really good players coming back from Air India but it was the younger lot,

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it was my generation and we were like literally 19-20 year olds who were pushing and helping the state team perform.

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Because of this guidance that we were suddenly receiving, so how much of a difference it can make, you know you can watch as much as you want and absorb and try it out yourself

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but having someone being able to accelerate that process is just invaluable in cricket

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and which is why I mean coaching is something that I stress on a lot now in my current role

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but back then if you ask the moment when our cricket really transformed from you know kids who were just trying to figure it out

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to having someone who knew the ropes, show us the ropes, it was a big moment.

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Yeah, in fact you have a pretty moving video about how one of your regrets was that there were these three-four years

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where you know before she shifted back to playing for Maharashtra from Air India,

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where you kept thinking should I approach her for tips, should I take her help, should I try to train with her

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and you were just hesitant and you didn't do it and later you regretted it because you thought my god if I'd learnt all of this a little earlier.

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Can you give me some concrete examples of specific ways in which she sort of helped your cricket both in terms of the actual game itself

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and also the mindset which you mentioned?

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Yeah absolutely, so firstly in terms of our preparation, just the physical preparation was what she emphasised on so much

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that we have to be at a level of fitness that allows us to perform otherwise you know the skill is just not going to come out.

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So our net sessions were preceded by an hour of fielding and fitness drills and she would build fielding into our fitness drills.

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Something she is very well known for is the ladder drill and that kind of became what our team was known for you know

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the team that carries around the ladder and we were the only team that was doing it at the time.

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Now you know it's just so common that shows how ahead of her time she was.

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Just the extent to which she would push us in terms of our strength training, of course no gym, we had absolutely zero gym access.

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It was just basic push-ups, squats, body weight training but the amount of repetitions that she made us do

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we had never imagined that this much can happen and I remember watching her herself.

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I mean she is this well known on the women's cricket circuit when she was playing as this incredibly fit cricketer.

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Her fielding is really well known, her short catching in terms of close in catching, short leg silly point is really well known

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and she was the kind of player who you know back in 2005-06 as a woman cricketer was able to do those push-up and clap.

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You know the ones where you press down, you push up, you are in the air, you clap and then you come back and push down again.

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She was able to do that and we were like oh my God how are you able to do that

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and then she was trying to pass on the processes of you know how much you have to start, how many push-ups you have to do

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and without actually telling us she was just building it into our warm-ups.

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I remember the first tournament we had when we went to, first tournament we had under the BCCI auspices when she had joined the team.

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We were travelling to Mumbai and the tournament was in Mumbai and during that bus journey everyone was sleeping, listening to music, chatting.

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She was sitting at the back of the bus one by one calling each member of the team behind and telling them this is what your job is.

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I remember having that conversation with her, she was like no variations, just bowl the ball in one place.

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I was like okay and now it's so common, this is called role clarity which you know every T20 team talks about.

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2006 we've never had this kind of role clarity before, it's just a half an hour team meeting where yes do your best and bowl here, bowl there.

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What to do, what not to do, nothing like that.

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So in terms of the mindset everyone was given a very clear specific role as this is what the expectations are.

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So that setting of expectations and then measuring against those expectations was fantastic.

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She would constantly keep reminding me about how fearsome I could be as a bowler because like I said,

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very rare for women to be so tall and generate the kind of bounce that I did.

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So she's like why are you bowling with a mid-off? You don't need a mid-off, you just put a fielder there in front of the batter's face and you bowl.

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That's the kind of... and I was like how can I bowl without a mid-off?

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I mean in my cricketing years, even towards the later half of my cricketing years,

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I was this person with that hesitancy and that uncertainty was a part of my personality

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and she was constantly reinforcing that this is something that you can overcome and kind of think bigger about yourself

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and this is the potential that you have and we were slowly slowly slowly growing into the possibility that okay, she might be right.

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That's kind of so mind-blowing and sounds so ahead of her time but where did she get all this rope from?

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Because I'm assuming that when she came into sort of playing for the state and all that,

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there were still no coaches around obviously because this was before your time.

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So is this stuff that she started picking up when she got to the national team or playing internationally or is it just a remarkably smart

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and enterprising person who figures it out from here and there?

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She's going to hate me for talking so much about her and even saying that you should have her on your podcast

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but she's this very reserved person, very private person and I actually don't even know whether I should be saying all this about her

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but she is someone who learned a lot from observing others very quickly.

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She was born in Kolhapur, moved to Pune because she was a talented cricketer at a very young age

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and I remember her telling me that she spent, there was a camp at maybe Pune club or some other ground in Pune

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where Frank Tyson had come down and he was training I think a bunch of boys

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and she joined in and aced the fitness test, sometimes even beating the boys.

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So she was always kind of exposing herself to these kind of environments where she will be able to pick up so many things.

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I remember her and our other senior cricketers like Kalyani, Umrani, they were regularly training with Maharashtra Ranji cricketers,

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the Rishikesh Kanet Kars who were based in Pune and therefore picking up a lot from them

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and which is something which doesn't really happen and didn't really happen to my generation.

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I had very little contact with the Ranji Trophy cricketers throughout my career.

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I still haven't had much contact with the Ranji Trophy cricketers.

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I have not set foot or played a game on the Maharashtra stadium at Gaunze just outside of Pune.

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It was all kind of very separate in the BCCIA times but back then they took the initiative

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and put themselves in these kind of situations where they know that they will learn and they will improve as cricketers

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and so to that extent that's probably what I know of where she would pick up these things from.

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Of course she has played international cricket, not like someone who is afraid to talk to the opposition, learn from them.

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She picked up a lot when she went abroad and in fact people abroad used to watch her train and pick up a lot from her.

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Like I said, she has always been the one who is in that kind of situation but always acing that situation.

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But to find out really where she picked it up is a really good question and I should pick her brain about it at various points.

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Yeah, I mean hope to see her on your show sometime actually since you do have a YouTube channel and you are right there in Pune.

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You kind of mentioned a bit about how you could sometimes be diffident and lack confidence and all of that

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and she told you that you have to be fearsome, you are a six foot fast bowler and all of that.

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Do you think that that kind of approach that you take to the sport also then changes what you are outside the sport?

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Like if you are finding yourself, finding increased confidence within the field and you are being fearsome as it were

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and bowling bouncers and hitting people and all of that, which I presume all fast bowlers enjoy doing.

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But did that also rub off then on the kind of person you are?

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Because I just find that in any field, not just sort of sport but in absolutely any field,

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the kind of work you do can often impact the kind of person you become.

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Like even podcasts, I just find that having these long conversations has kind of changed me a little bit,

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better listener, more empathetic, so on and so forth.

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So is there something to that, not just from your own experience but kind of seeing people around you?

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I think there is a little bit both ways.

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My own experience has, I mean yes, playing sport and always being with the only girl and the boys

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and never letting it kind of bother me, did probably contribute to the little bit of an extrovertness that I have

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and the comfort of starting a conversation or being in a situation which might make other people nervous in that sense.

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So in that sense, playing sport does help in terms of the person you are and the person you become.

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But I mean there is this old adage in any sport that sports doesn't really build character, it reveals it.

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So more than anything, I think it's the other way around.

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I think the person you are contributes more to the kind of, this is my experience,

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the person you are contributes more to the kind of athlete or the kind of sports person you become.

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Because you can't, I mean sports is, the match is somewhere where it kind of reveals your true personality

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and you can't fake it there when you are tired and there is no energy left in your body to put up a pretense.

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The only reserves of energy you have are what are going to be used in doing whatever action you need to do.

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There I think it shows who you really are and it's an opportunity for reflection and an opportunity to learn.

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And for many years, I just went through sport without really actively learning

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and without taking those opportunities to really reflect and really think.

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Because like I said, there were a little bit of hesitancies in my personality despite on the outside being this super confident,

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tall, extravertish kind of person who is happy to pick up any kind of conversations.

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There are always some insecurities that you have, insecurities that you pick up,

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which then kind of express themselves on the field.

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Because more than anything, I think the person you are contributes in a big way to the athlete you become,

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which is why having talent is not enough. Everyone says you have to have the right mindset for it, the right attitude for it.

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I think that is a part or that is speaking to this aspect of the conversation where you have,

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a person like me can be gifted physically, but my mindset, was it the best? No.

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I mean, was it the best for a professional athlete? No.

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Now looking back, I can be completely honest with myself. At the time, I hadn't really figured myself out.

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In what way was your mindset not up to the task?

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So growing up, there were a few insecurities which were coming out of my childhood.

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There were a few body image insecurities which were kind of carrying forth onto the cricket field.

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They were all rooted into the sense of, you know, am I good enough?

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And rooted into the questions of self-worth.

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So therefore, when there is a situation where you need to make the brave choice,

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my internal dialogue was, am I good enough? And my internal dialogue was that of a doubt.

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So like you mentioned the example of, you know, when I was hesitating where I could have, should have gone up, had a conversation,

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maybe it would have helped my career, worse come to worse, it would have just, you know, been a, I would have had to hear a no.

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In those moments, I hesitated, doubted myself that as a cricketer is kind of really, it can be fatal

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because you're in a situation where you're, the team depends on you, you're in a situation where you have to perform a difficult task.

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It's easy at the start, you know, and the going is good, the energy levels are high.

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But should I bowl that slower ball now?

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Oh, what if it gets hit?

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Maybe I'll just stick to my regular stock ball.

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Should I take a risk and play this shot?

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Oh, but what if I get out?

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Those are the kind of internal dialogues and internal doubts that can sometimes come across.

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If you have those kind of insecurities and internal dialogues off the field, if you have those kind of things as a part of your personality, so to speak.

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And sure, the process of going through those kind of things, it does help.

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But in my opinion, that, and I say this now also to, you know, younger people in the field, whether it's in media or whether it's in sports,

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is that your personal development is probably the biggest obstacle to your professional development.

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And that is kind of my takeaway from the career that I had is that if I had, for example, my mindset towards professionalism,

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just taking the plunge and being much more professional about how I saw it was difficult for me because maybe I was limiting myself with what I could be.

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Like my mentors kept telling me, you can aim for this, you should aim for this.

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In my mind, if there is a voice saying, can I, can I really, can I believe that?

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And then only once you believe that, can you apply the steps required to kind of reach there.

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So thinking back now, I mean, at the time I had zero idea, but thinking back now, I mean, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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That is something I would have encouraged a 20, 22 year old Snehal Pradhan to change.

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I have a tangential question.

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Like I used to play chess a little seriously in my teens.

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And at one point, I think when I was 19, I just stopped because I realized I'm not good enough to be an Anand and anything else just kind of makes no sense.

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But just looking back at those days, I realized that all my issues with why I wasn't able to take the next step were not talent issues, but temperament issues.

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Again, similar things to what you've mentioned, impatience and always in a hurry and similar to those things.

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Now, I wonder that if someone had actually, if an older me had sat down and told me these are your problems, this is how you need to get past it.

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This is why it will stop you.

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Whether I would have learned it all and you know, whether people just need to make their own mistakes and go through their own phases and you can't actually teach them.

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Like on the one hand, I would imagine that having a mentor or having a coach can really help you because you don't make these mistakes you would otherwise have made.

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But the other aspect of it is that these mistakes perhaps come from deep inside.

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Perhaps they're part of your character and you just need to grow on your own.

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Now, you're a coach where you're working with young people all the time and you're seeing kind of similar sort of tendency.

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So, you know, would it be the case that like technical defects you can coach out of people, but just kind of the mentality and all of these other issues?

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Is there a way for someone like you to accelerate the growing up process?

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Because, you know, instilling say patience or discipline in someone is not just changing them as a sports person, but also changing them as a person in a sense.

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Can that be accelerated?

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What's your experience working with younger snails as I'm sure you do?

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Yeah, that's an interesting question.

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And like I had one student who I was working one on one with and I emphasised this a lot with her as, you know, a young teenage girl.

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Naturally, there are definitely a lot of insecurities.

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So I emphasised self-knowledge is one of the skills that we're trying to build here and that extends beyond cricket.

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I want like, you know, some of the things that I'll say in coaching is that I want you to understand your body as to when your arm comes so far away from your head, then where the ball will go.

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And when your body pivots so well, then where the ball will go.

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I want you to understand those things about your body.

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I want you to understand that, you know, when you're holding the bat in which exact position are you able to connect the ball well?

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So that kind of self-knowledge, that technical self-knowledge is important, yes.

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But I also encourage her to journal.

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I also encourage her to kind of write down her thoughts.

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I also encourage her to talk to her near and dear ones about the things that you might, you know, not usually talk to, to have those conversations.

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And as someone who is providing that guidance, you can help, but it's absolutely true that everyone has their own journey, everyone has their own path.

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I am 100% convinced that if you don't have this mentor in your life, that path takes a lot longer.

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But even with the mentor in your life, they can't walk it for you.

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You have to be the one.

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But there are, for example, like when you talk about cricket, some exercises that you do which make it easier to perform technical actions.

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Unless you're strong in your shoulders, you won't be able to rip the ball when you're bowling it at a certain speed.

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So, similarly, some exercises that you do can help you in your personal growth.

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Like, for example, things like meditation, disconnecting from your phone, social media, journaling.

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These are exercises which aren't going to solve the problem for you, but hopefully give you either skills or insights for you to kind of solve and recognize those problems yourself.

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So, as a coach, you can provide those structures and hope that those structures can develop into self-realization and self-knowledge for whoever you're working with.

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And I mean, it's a process that we have to do ourselves, I mean, as coaches, constantly.

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But it can help.

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But like you said, it is up to the individual.

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Some individuals will just pick it up faster.

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Some individuals will take a lot of time with it.

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I want to pick up on your mention of social media there.

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Like, I imagine at the time you started playing, like you said, there weren't too many of you.

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Today, I guess a pool of people wanting to play would be larger.

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But at the same time, so are the distractions and so is the opportunity cost in terms of what else they could be doing with their time.

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And, you know, there is Facebook, which I think today renamed itself to Metta, so I have to stop using that word.

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Facebook many years ago did a study which they suppressed, which found that social media had a negative impact on the sort of the mental health of young teenage girls specifically.

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And Jonathan Haidt on the episode of another show that I produced at one point elaborated a little bit on this and what studies have kind of found is that, you know,

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people a decade and a half back thought that video games would be bad for boys,

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but it turned out boys playing video games was perfectly fine because problem solving skills and all of that, it was OK for them.

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But for the girls, the social media became a big problem because typically if you're a young adolescent or pre-adolescent girl,

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you have girls hanging around being social, getting to know each other.

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But social media made everything performative with all the pressures of looking your best on Instagram and Facebook and so on and so forth.

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And that led to a rise in teenage depression and suicides in the US.

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And it's something that's been spoken a lot about.

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And the artist formerly known as Facebook, but now known as Metta, kind of apparently suppressed research that they had to that effect,

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that it was correct that they're by confirming what a lot of people were saying.

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So when you coach young people, do you feel that that is also a problem, that there are all these distractions?

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Or does it mean that the people who've come to you for coaching in any case by a process of self-selection are the people who are the most driven anyway?

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I would firstly say that I don't have enough sample size to answer this question because I usually coach on a one-on-one basis.

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And if I'm in charge of a team of young girls or in a big academy, then it will probably give me a bigger picture.

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Two, like you said, the students who do come to me are the ones who are serious.

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They are the ones whose parents are ready to invest a significant amount of time driving them to and from wherever they are.

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They're the ones whose parents are ready to invest fees.

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So they're already convinced that this is something that they want to get serious about.

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So when I tell them to stay off their phones at night or give them social media related advice, they're usually more likely to follow it.

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In general, yes, social media definitely has thrown up, does throw up so many new challenges which we're kind of figuring out how to do.

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I mean, even when I was playing, that is five, six years ago until I retired,

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conversations on social media within the women's cricket circuit were quite common.

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It is an oft-repeated fact in the women's cricket circuit that Alice Perry is not on any social media.

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And she's there because she's at the level that she is at right now

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because she has recognized that to get there requires a certain amount of focus, requires a certain amount of sacrifice, requires a certain amount of subtraction from your life.

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And it's only now that she's achieved what she's achieved that she started an Instagram or a Twitter or whatever it is.

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So that is something that does get repeated.

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There is a general grumbling that the younger generation uses social media too much.

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But I'm not close enough to this problem to kind of properly comment on it.

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I mean, in my life, social media is also a huge distraction, but also a huge asset.

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I mean, my entire brand, so to speak, has been built on social media.

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I mean, I'm not the kind of player who played a hundred tests.

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And therefore, I had to assert my credibility almost through my work on social media.

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It's my playing career doesn't speak for itself.

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So, yeah, it can work both ways.

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But I recognize that, I mean, in my life, I spent too much time on Twitter.

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In my life, I spent too much time on Twitter as well.

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And I can also rationalize by saying that, no, listen, that's where I reach out to people and I'm connected with readers or listeners or whatever.

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But at some level, that's kind of a cop-out.

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Earlier, you mentioned the role of happenstance.

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And I remember this line that really struck me from The Fire Burns Blue by Karuniya and Siddhyanth, which I'll read out.

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It says, quote, if today's women's cricket is a community, it's because of Shantaranga Swami.

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If it is competitive, it's because of Diana Adulji. Helping it take that vital step towards professionalism was a vision, efficiency and diplomacy of Shubhangi Kulkarni.

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And again, it's happenstance that one of these three sort of pioneers who played such a big role was a big part of your life.

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And you got to benefit from that and many other people kind of wouldn't have, which is great luck.

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But also another stroke of luck that you've also had a recent video about was your parents in the sense that they were so supportive through everything.

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And you just mentioned about how a lot of the kids who come to you, their parents are a big part of it.

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They'll drive them there from far places and all of that.

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And that can be a little bit of a double-edged sword, right?

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On the one hand, you're passionate about something and it's great if your parents support you.

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And they're not going the conventional way, saying, you know, do medical or engineering or MBA, but they support you.

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That's great. But the flip side of that also is, as we've seen in the past, is that parents can sometimes push you too hard.

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You know, they can kind of want to live vicariously through you and all of that.

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And that can also be sort of a problem with kids.

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So what are your thoughts on this?

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Before answering that question, I must point out that I was lucky enough to spend a lot of time around not one, but two of those great pioneers.

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Because when I was 21, I got employed with Western Railway.

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The senior sports officer at Western Railway, the woman in charge of everything, not just cricket, but all sports,

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was Diana Adelji, and who went on to play a huge role in cricket administration later.

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And my God, what a force that woman is, really, not even was.

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So lucky enough, like you said, that Happenstance had these two people who were kind of driving women's cricket forward in their own different way.

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To come to the question about parents, it's definitely a thing that you have these parents who are a little too over-involved.

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I luckily didn't. Like I said, my entire family is a family where education is fairly important.

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My parents actually split up when I was about 13 or 14, but despite that, we still lived in the same building.

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So they were still sharing the kind of responsibilities of making sure that my cricket is always taken care of.

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That was never compromised on.

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What has been probably, again, lucky for me is that since they didn't really have sporting aspirations of their own,

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they never imposed their aspirations or their dreams on me and kind of let me take my own path.

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Like I said, I joined Western Railway when I was 21, and at that point, I moved out of home.

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I moved from Pune to Mumbai. Again, wonderful support from both my parents in that respect,

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and the entire family, not just my father and my mother.

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So I can't really speak for the people whose parents can be too overbearing with coaches or with children who I teach,

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children who I work with. I kind of make it clear to the parents that you will drop the kid to training,

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but then you are kind of out of bounds. After that, all yours.

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But I don't want a parent coming and telling that, oh, she should do this, she should do that,

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because she doesn't do this, she doesn't do that. I don't want that happening in my coaching.

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So that's a line that I draw. I've been lucky that I've worked with parents that kind of understand that.

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It's something that I drive through in my online coaching programs also.

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I've now built an online coaching program which is designed specifically for parent-children combination.

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So my target audience almost is these parents that you're talking about who want to invest 100 balls a day,

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who want to bowl 1000 balls a day to their kid.

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And almost they might be having cricketing aspirations of their own and they want to see their kids fulfil those.

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I always try and convey that cricket is not everything. Please do other things, play other sports, read.

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In a subtle way, I try to convey that there is more to life than cricket.

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In fact, part of that online training program that I'm trying to build, I'm trying to build a series of educational programs on

3062

what you can do, as in how you can get a job in cricket if you don't make it as a cricketer.

3066

Because the fact is that 95%, 97%, 99% of people aren't going to make it as cricketers.

3073

So how can you be as lucky as I was and you were able to stay connected to cricket as a part of your profession

3080

even after actually quitting the game is something that I'm hoping to build out in the future.

3086

So it's not something I actively talk about or it's not something I kind of try to shout through.

3095

But in subtle ways, I try to just encourage them that this is also something you could do

3101

and also make them aware that despite our best efforts, that dream may not be fulfilled.

3108

Okay, that's okay.

3111

When I was going through your website, one of the fascinating things was you have these separate buttons side by side

3115

where one for children to click and one for parents to click if they want to learn, which is fascinating.

3120

And also this aspect of figuring out stuff outside cricket, like CLRJM said, what do they of cricket know, who only cricket know.

3126

I have another question for you because you mentioned Diana Adulji and what a remarkable woman she was.

3131

This takes me back to a thought I had while recording my episode with Kavita Rao,

3135

she's written this wonderful book on these women doctors of the 19th century.

3140

And one of the things that struck me there was that just to be a woman doctor in the 19th century,

3145

you had to be Prima Fasi absolutely remarkable because it wasn't just a question of the aptitude or the interest in the subject,

3151

but you also had to have the massive will to make it through all the obstacles in your way.

3156

Similarly, it strikes me that as far as these cricketing pioneers are concerned,

3160

including the three people we just mentioned and the two people who've in a sense mentored you,

3165

it strikes me that there is that intersection of great talent and great will that is very rare.

3171

And in women's cricket you have to have that and in men's cricket you possibly don't.

3175

Just by having great talent and being in the right place at the right time, you can make it to a fairly high level.

3181

But in women's cricket with all the obstacles, deciding to stick with it,

3184

deciding not to do any of the hundred other things that you can do,

3188

it's kind of crazy. And is that something that you see still today?

3193

I mean, I'm pretty sure it's true of the pioneers.

3196

And also, you know, when you mentioned that, you know, Dan Adulji was a remarkable woman and all of that,

3202

expand on that a little bit. I'd love to know.

3205

So going to slightly disagree with you there is that even in men's cricket,

3208

I don't think you can make it nowadays just because of the sheer volumes

3212

and the competition that we have without both those great talent and great will.

3216

But in terms of what is required at a pioneer stage, that's literally the job description of a pioneer, I suppose.

3224

You know, whether it's in women's cricket or whether it's in the freedom struggle or any kind of field

3230

where they're breaking glass ceilings.

3232

I have this saying which I sadly have to agree with is that, you know,

3237

people who break glass ceilings often have bloody fists.

3239

And it's especially true, I think, of some of the pioneers of the women's cricket generation

3245

because they gave up so much in terms of what they had to go through to simply play the sport that they loved.

3252

I mean, I remember you would have read this in the book.

3254

There's an incident where Shantaranga Swami was protesting against some mismanagement by the administration

3260

and she was dropped. She was simply dropped from the team.

3263

Similarly, Dan Adulji has pushed through so much to build up the legacy that the Indian Railways really has.

3271

She is the first women's cricketer to be employed by railways and she's the start of that legacy

3276

where she really put her name forward to a politician at the time saying that

3282

my father is retiring from Western Railway.

3284

I would like to take his place because there was this system of, you know, almost compensatory employment.

3289

And she then just worked and worked and worked to have more and more cricketers employed.

3296

So, like, you know, what we hear feminists say nowadays that if you get an opportunity,

3301

you should do your best to make sure that that opportunity is also available to the next generation of women who come after you.

3307

Before feminism really existed in the Indian consciousness, these women were doing it.

3312

And at the time, great social cost because you are putting yourself almost as a villain in many cases

3319

to fight the case of women's cricket against very often male-dominated situations.

3327

And it's not going to be easy at all.

3330

In terms of my own experience with Diana Mam, she was always this extremely senior figure

3336

and I was just joining Western Railway in the early 20s.

3339

What used to happen is that she was posted in the office at Churchgate.

3344

Of course, that's the headquarters for Western Railway.

3346

I was posted at Bombay Central, but one month of the year, we would all spend at Churchgate

3350

where we were handling the railway recruitment drives.

3353

The entire women's cricket team would kind of be recruited to just help out with that work.

3357

And we would see her literally having phone calls constantly, having meetings constantly

3364

to make sure that, you know, Western Railway remained the top railway in terms of sports,

3370

whether it's berating some coach who has not done his job or whether it's making calls

3377

to make sure that this team is being transported here in the best possible arrangements.

3382

Western Railway always, she pushed for the best talent, the best kind of accommodation.

3388

Whenever our inter-railway tournaments used to happen, she would always travel with us for inter-railway

3392

because, I mean, we were her team.

3394

If we didn't do well, then it was a matter of pride for her.

3397

And nothing less than winning is acceptable, is the culture that she built out at Western Railway.

3403

And there are some downsides to that culture.

3406

Yes, absolutely.

3407

But the expectations, the high expectations that were set was something that she did very rigorously.

3415

And we had a kind of, there was an aura of fear usually around her

3420

because you do not want to get on her bad side because you would be sitting in those offices

3424

and of course, they're not like sealed glass cabins, which are soundproof.

3428

I can just still imagine those thin walled Western Railway offices

3433

where the upper sections of the high ceiling are just open

3437

and everything that is being spoken inside is carrying out.

3440

And you will hear her sometimes tearing into someone who has not performed as per expectations.

3446

I mean, I remember once I picked up an injury which she wasn't very happy about

3450

and oh my God, that was an uncomfortable conversation.

3453

But also this fierce admiration for someone who you knew would kind of have your back

3460

and make sure that you had the best in terms of coaching,

3463

in terms of facilities available for the railways,

3466

in terms of the kinds of leaves that we were able to get.

3470

And to the extent that Western Railway was very often the envy of pretty much every other team

3475

because we had someone fighting for us, someone in our corner.

3478

So, I can imagine it's a great tragedy that we don't have records,

3484

we don't have any kind of visual evidence of very little photos,

3488

photographic evidence of some of these players in their prime.

3491

And you look at them now when they're in their 50s and their 60s

3497

and still they're so impressive.

3499

And definitely as players, you would think, you know,

3502

would have been very interesting to be in the same team as them.

3505

Never a dull moment.

3508

It's really interesting to me that your first class cricket really,

3512

the equivalent of first class cricket for women really started in the 70s,

3516

but eventually Railways was like the dominant team

3519

because it just employed all the best players.

3521

So, it just tells you kind of the force of one woman in building an ecosystem

3524

and what difference just one person can sometimes make.

3527

I think they won 19 out of 20 tournaments or something like that

3531

till a particular point in time.

3532

Let's kind of get back to your sort of career now.

3535

You're this young teenager, you go to the nets,

3538

you want to be a wicket keeper, they make you a fast bowler,

3540

you find out you're good at it.

3542

And then Amrita Shinde joins in 2006 and that kind of helps you along.

3548

And in 2008, you make your debut.

3550

And eventually you're bowling alongside Jhulan Goswami.

3553

I think in your first ODI, you took three wickets while she took two.

3557

So, tell me a little bit about what that experience was like

3560

actually playing for the national team.

3563

So, let me build up a little bit to that in, you know,

3568

recognising what led to that finally happening.

3571

In terms of 2006, BCCI coming over,

3574

we're playing on better grounds, better facilities,

3576

all those kind of things.

3577

We're no longer living in dormitories, no longer travelling unreserved.

3580

Instead, we're travelling AC buses, planes

3583

and living in twin sharing.

3585

Oh my God, twin sharing is so cool.

3587

That kind of a shift.

3588

At the same time, we're now exposed to a much higher standard of cricket

3591

thanks to players who were playing for the likes of Air India,

3594

coming back into the Maharashtra team.

3595

That helped, you know, just make one step up.

3599

2007, like I said, I joined Railways

3601

and Western Railways was the strongest team on the circuit

3605

playing in that environment where suddenly I'm not the meanest bowler on the pitch.

3610

And, you know, there are batters who have, out of the top six batters,

3613

four would have played for India.

3615

And pitting myself against them also then accelerated my development.

3619

And, of course, being in Western Railways

3621

and having a little more structured training, etc.

3625

And then the call came.

3627

It wasn't even a call.

3629

I mean, the whole process of, you know,

3631

informing people of their selection is just so poorly managed in India.

3636

I didn't expect to be picked for the series that I was picked for,

3639

which was the Asia Cup in Sri Lanka in 2008.

3643

We had had a camp before that.

3645

I had done okay, okay.

3646

But, you know, it wasn't really a breakthrough performance.

3649

But obviously the selectors saw some talent.

3652

They decided to take a chance on it.

3653

I was at home, got a message from one of the players saying that,

3657

oh, congrats.

3658

I'm like, for what?

3659

Then suddenly, you know, the internet has made its appearance in life.

3663

Go check websites.

3665

And I actually see my name there, which is really cool.

3668

I had gotten a little bit of a taste of what it would be like

3671

to receive kind of an India cap a few years earlier

3675

when I had played for India under 21,

3677

where we had gone to Pakistan.

3680

But actually arriving there,

3682

we're given this box a few days before our departure,

3685

which at the time Nike was sponsoring the BCC.

3689

I'm like still in Nike kit.

3691

I've just like had a sports session this morning.

3693

So I'm still in kit.

3695

And there's this box of Nike packaging,

3698

which we can take to our rooms and open.

3701

And we're all going through it and we find our caps, our India caps.

3706

There was no culture or no paddhat of cap presentation and all.

3712

You know, you got your India cap, now wear it

3714

and come onto the field was the kind of situation.

3717

I remember the first training session we had in Sri Lanka.

3719

I was so sick from some kind of food poisoning.

3722

I was vomiting on the ground,

3725

wasn't really able to practice at all,

3727

almost blacking out and I was like,

3729

oh shit, what a bad way to make a first impression.

3731

And then finally stomach settled down, nerves settled down

3736

and we got in.

3738

That match that you're talking about wasn't actually my first match for India.

3741

There was another match before that against Bangladesh,

3744

but at the time Bangladesh didn't have ODI status.

3747

So therefore it doesn't count as an official ODI.

3749

It doesn't count as my first match,

3751

but that was my first match against Bangladesh.

3753

The second match was against Pakistan.

3755

To do well in both those matches was nice.

3757

To hear Mithali Raj say,

3759

standing at mid-off and saying,

3761

no, you bowl your full 10 overs.

3763

To have her show that kind of confidence in me

3765

was really cool for a young cricketer.

3768

To go to the dressing room afterwards

3771

and ask Juludi,

3773

Juludi, how did I do?

3774

And to hear that, yeah, you did well,

3777

you can do better.

3778

To get that kind of direct encouragement and feedback was incredible.

3782

And I remember on that tour,

3783

Juludi actually completed the landmark of 100 wickets.

3786

So being on that tour, being a part of that

3789

was another special feeling.

3791

There are very few people on the women's cricket circuit

3794

who I've connected on a wavelength with.

3797

And fortunately for me,

3799

one of the people I looked up to was one of them.

3801

Juludi was one of them.

3803

And she had this,

3806

at the same time, competitiveness,

3810

extreme competitiveness,

3811

but at the same time,

3813

this ability to take the focus off herself

3817

and guide the younger players.

3819

And again, I keep saying this,

3821

it keeps popping up,

3823

but I almost wonder how much energy she must be pouring

3826

and still, from what these kids say,

3828

pouring into the current crop of younger cricketers.

3831

And just despite that,

3833

she's just an amazing cricketer

3835

and the cricketer that she is, is amazing.

3837

So overall, getting to fulfil that dream

3840

was an incredible experience,

3843

where you have a dream of opening the bowling

3845

with Julian Goswami for India.

3848

Got to do that and that was pretty cool.

3851

Yeah, and longevity is also amazing for a fast bowler.

3854

To give almost 20 years is kind of crazy.

3857

So that 3 for 21 you took in the game against Pakistan,

3861

it was at one stretch, those 10 overs?

3863

Yeah, those 10 overs. As far as I remember,

3865

I'll have to check ball by ball to be sure,

3867

but as far as I remember, those 10 overs were at a stretch.

3870

Wow, that's crazy.

3872

I mean, that is really kind of tough physically.

3876

You know, just in terms of physical conditioning,

3879

by this time, I guess you had proper coaches and all of that.

3882

Give me a sense from a fast bowling perspective,

3884

how different approaching a match is for a fast bowler

3887

as opposed to a batsman, for example,

3890

or even a spinner.

3892

Yeah, I mean, the spinners have the easiest job.

3896

But for me, that had kind of become something

3899

I'd been known for on the domestic circuit.

3901

You know, in the few seasons leading up to playing for India

3904

and at that time, I had become a bit of a new ball specialist.

3908

I had become someone who regularly will bowl

3911

10 overs upfront to the new ball.

3913

So it wasn't down to any kind of specific training regime.

3918

It was probably just a lot of bowling.

3920

You know, we hear these two schools of thought nowadays within cricket.

3924

One is that, you know, you have your workload management,

3926

is that bowl only X number of balls per week, per day,

3930

and then you do the rest of your miles in your cardio or something.

3935

And we didn't have any of those concepts.

3937

It was just sheerly bowling in the nets for almost an hour, hour 15 minutes

3943

is how we used to kind of build up that kind of bowling fitness.

3947

Despite having a few coaches here and there,

3951

there was only probably one other coach in the state set up

3956

who had shown that they have a very high level of knowledge.

3960

But I had not yet met someone who was able to impress as a coach

3965

even in my first few years in Western Railway.

3969

But just training with a team like Western Railway

3973

where we were putting in a little more hours in terms of what we were doing.

3978

There was a gym there, so I was doing gym work properly for the first time in my life.

3982

I had been doing some gym before that.

3984

We had this tradition of going for weekly runs to Juhu Beach

3988

and we would head there and reach there by sunrise and do a 45 minute,

3993

sometimes one hour long distance run.

3995

So these very old fashioned training methods,

3999

no real knowledge about nutrition, no real knowledge about recovery,

4004

no dedicated time energy resources to really do this,

4008

just try and have as much regular home food as you can.

4011

That was kind of how it went back then.

4014

In terms of preparation for matches,

4016

one challenge of bowling those 10 overs at a stretch,

4020

for me, I am someone who sweats a lot.

4023

They used to call me the Rahul Dravid of the women's cricket team.

4027

That much, no one would hug me after I took a wicket.

4031

Let's just say that.

4033

One of the big challenges was cramps.

4035

One of the big challenges was especially training a lot in Mumbai,

4037

very often playing in hot humid conditions with cramps.

4041

So hydration, even though there was very little knowledge of nutrition and those kind of things,

4045

hydration became something that I paid a lot of attention to.

4048

So day before the match, my hydration would start.

4051

A day before the match, I would have my favourite brand of ORS mixed into a bottle ready

4058

and I would kind of consume the entire quota a day before the game.

4062

During the game, everyone knew this is Poppy's bottle.

4065

My nickname during my playing years was Poppy.

4069

So this is Poppy's bottle, everyone knew.

4071

No one else touched that and every opportunity,

4074

whether it's a small pause in the game, someone will come,

4077

the 12th man will come inside and run me drinks.

4081

So that was something that I always constantly was conscious of, worked on.

4087

I mean, I marveled at all rounders.

4091

I looked at people who were proper fast bowling all rounders.

4094

I'm like, how did you do it? Because it was exhausting, let's be honest.

4098

That kind of training, that kind of preparation.

4101

Of course, by that time, I was also working in Western Railways,

4104

so I had to spend half a day in an office where all you want to do is curl up and sleep

4108

rather than going through dusty old files

4112

and having to sort them alphabetically only to find out two days later that it's all been jumbled up.

4117

That kind of experience was exhausting.

4121

So I really had no concept of how these all rounders did it,

4125

how people who were, Guru Melidhar for one example,

4128

I mean, fantastic all rounder for India,

4131

regularly bowled 8-10 overs and batted at 4-5-6 in the middle order.

4136

And I marveled at that.

4138

But it was at that stage incomprehensible to me.

4141

I was just about able to kind of pour all my energies into bowling.

4145

It got me to that stage that it did.

4148

Yeah, I think, speaking of Ramellidhar,

4151

she, I think, made a quick fire of 50 at more than a runner ball in that particular match against Pakistan.

4156

Tell me a bit about that Railways thing because my impression was you get a sports quota job,

4159

you're basically playing sports, but you also had to go to office and look through files.

4162

What was your work there?

4164

Oh, that was such a phase in life.

4167

Because, I mean, Dina Adelji was there,

4170

she had kind of created a system where, you know, new players coming in,

4173

had a place to stay in Mumbai.

4175

So that first struggle of, you know, where to stay in Mumbai

4178

wasn't as big a struggle in terms of finding that place.

4181

Getting used to that place was a different issue because it was a railway quarter in Matunga,

4186

the Matunga Western Line Station.

4188

Right next to it, still when you pass from Matunga to Mahim and you look on your right,

4193

you will see those probably blue and white painted houses.

4197

You know, once upon a time, I used to live in one of those houses where we are banged next to the railway tracks,

4202

which is why, I mean, hearing just the train sounds in Mumbai is just a part of my psyche, I suppose.

4208

And we are seven people in that flat.

4211

We are seven girls, all girls from the women's cricket team, staying in that flat.

4215

It's literally two rooms and a kitchen.

4219

And everyone has different schedules.

4222

There is no real furniture.

4224

We're sleeping on bedrolls on the floor.

4227

We're using that place as, you know, just to crash, essentially.

4230

I was lucky enough that I was close by enough to go to Pune on the weekends, etc.

4235

and enjoy home comforts.

4237

But moving to Mumbai, living in that kind of place after, you know, experiencing Pune and Mumbai anyways,

4243

the amount of space you have available to you is so very different.

4247

Then commuting every day, like our routine was almost, sometimes if we're doing twice a day training,

4254

leave Matunga at around 6.30, by 7.15 travel to Lower Parel, where the Western Railway ground is, at Mahalakshmi,

4263

which is opposite Phoenix Mills and High Street Phoenix, which is now High Street Phoenix.

4268

There, 7.15 to 8.15, 9 have a morning session, whether that's fitness, whether that is a gym,

4275

whether whatever is happening at that phase in time.

4278

Use the dormitories there to bathe, change, head to office, get to office by 10am.

4284

Stay in office, torturous, 3 hours, and leave at 1pm.

4289

So the facility that we received was half-day.

4292

Being a sports quota athlete, you could basically, you had to go to the office half-day, leave at 1.

4299

The stories that you hear of, you know, people being signed on sports quota and then just never having to turn up

4304

either stories of extremely elite athletes who set conditions that, you know,

4309

okay, sorry, we're not going to turn up in an office ever and the Railways wants them so bad that they accept those conditions

4315

or people whose offices can be managed, whose offices are, you know, cooperative enough to,

4322

yeah, okay, fine, don't come, that's okay, because everyone finally is posted into an office

4326

and you're under a particular boss, totally depends on how that boss is with regards to how you are,

4331

how much workload that space has. I mean, within Western Railway, people who are posted at headquarters,

4335

Churchgate usually had very less workloads.

4338

People who are posted like me at Bombay Central, working in the Bombay division, not headquarters division,

4345

had very high workloads, so we had no such allowances.

4349

There were, of course, a lot of our players who worked as TCs and they didn't have weekends off.

4356

They had only one day off a week that may not even be on a Saturday, Sunday.

4360

They would actually be in trains checking tickets, so that sometimes was like a good thing or a bad thing

4366

because you're kind of on the fly, it's easy to fly away when you're on the fly.

4370

And then after 1 p.m., have food usually outside somewhere and head back to Mahalakshmi.

4377

The dormitory is there, had beds, so we would usually catch an afternoon nap for an hour

4382

and then 4 to 6 p.m. training again, 6 p.m. get back and travel back to Matunga,

4388

focus about half an hour, 45 minutes, 7, 7.30 back, have food,

4393

and if you have any energy left for any recreation, that's the time you got.

4399

And that was the kind of routine that we had.

4401

That was the kind of routine that I lived for a very long time when I was living in that flat.

4406

Eventually I moved out and lived with friends, but it is a very different kind of life.

4413

But at the same time, everyone accepted that it is a very normal life for women's cricketers.

4419

I mean, just at any point of time in that flat, there were at least 2 India cricketers there.

4424

I think when I was there, there were 4 out of the 7 had played for India.

4430

So that was what an India cricketer's life is like.

4433

Wow! And at this point, how are you sort of thinking about your life ahead?

4438

Because, you know, there is a game, but at the same time, the Indian team just isn't playing so much.

4443

So, you know, it's not like you're going to play 100 test matches.

4446

You know, it's just not there.

4448

Obviously, I'm guessing you're not thinking that, oh, I want to be in railways all my life.

4452

This is a great life.

4453

So how are you kind of thinking of life outside of cricket, after cricket and so on?

4458

To be honest, I mean, in those early years, I'm not thinking about after cricket because, I mean,

4462

just the hope is that, you know, you can make as much of this life as possible

4467

and stay in cricket and continue to play at a high level for as long as you can.

4471

You quickly realise that that's not always possible.

4474

There is, you know, at that time, so much insecurity in the team,

4478

so much inconsistency and arbitrariness in selection.

4481

Absolutely no concept of, you know, nurturing a player.

4484

I mean, thinking back right now, if I was an administrator and I had a female bowler who was 6 feet tall,

4490

I would be making sure that I nurture that bowler.

4493

And there were two or three of us who were, you know, physically gifted like that.

4498

I would be making sure that I nurture that player and having her as kind of a backup

4502

and a succession for Julan Goswami.

4504

There was absolutely no thought like that because you have to remember,

4508

after the BCCI took over women's cricket,

4510

some things changed for the better, like I described before, but some things changed for the worse.

4515

We were no longer the number one priority of the association who was governing us.

4519

So, you know, whether there was a coach, whether there was a national team program,

4524

national team coaches also were on a revolving musical chair.

4527

So that's the context, that's the environment that we're kind of in,

4530

and it's an environment of survival rather than prosperity.

4535

You know, you can't think about flourishing, you're just thinking about keeping your head above the water.

4540

And this is for the few of us who are lucky enough to have government jobs, salaries,

4545

you know, having already come close to or having played for India.

4550

Even we are kind of going through that kind of a mindset, or at least I was.

4554

I won't speak for the others, but that was a little glimpse of the environment.

4559

I always knew at the back of my mind that I'm not going to stay with railways beyond my cricketing years.

4564

I had no idea what I would do. Absolutely none.

4568

But it was just a, it was an existence of hope that you continue to stay, continue to survive,

4575

hopefully get opportunities to play at the international level.

4579

If not, you have the fact that there is a railway job who is kind of, the railway job is supporting you, which is good.

4586

But there is a little bit of a driftness to that existence.

4593

Even if you're playing for India, like you said, there aren't a lot of matches happening.

4597

There are three or four tournaments a year.

4599

When the next tournament happens, whether the coach will be the same, whether the selectors will still think the same about you.

4605

An atmosphere of insecurity, despite the security of these public sector jobs,

4611

because you knew that there was no option besides railways.

4613

It's not like I could, like my, I had office mates in chess and table tennis and badminton,

4618

and all of them could jump from railways to petroleum if railways didn't treat them right, or, you know, move to like a bank.

4624

Whereas Women's Cricket Railways is the only employer, so there wasn't an abundance of options either.

4629

So, it was this strange time, and I'm glad that a lot of cricketers today don't have to,

4635

or if they're good enough, they don't have to kind of go through that kind of time.

4639

Despite being grateful to the railways, I mean, let's be really clear,

4643

if not for that railway job, I would probably have quit cricket after my graduation.

4647

I turned down engineering, but I did a B.Sc.

4650

In my third year, I was thinking about, you know, higher education, okay,

4654

how many years can you keep taking money from your parents to continue playing cricket,

4660

which might give you absolutely nothing in the future.

4662

Railways kept me in the game. Otherwise, I would have gone off, maybe done an MBA,

4666

and be sitting in some corporate office right now.

4668

Railways kept me in the game, but at the same time,

4670

it's something which a few colleagues of mine describe as limiting ambitions by being in that environment.

4678

Thank God you ended up not doing an MBA, and there are plenty of MBAs out there.

4683

That's also the survivorship bias.

4685

There might be other people who made the same decisions as you,

4688

who might kind of regret making those decisions and not going in for that MBA.

4692

So I guess that's there.

4694

So during this period, and obviously, you know, in women's cricket,

4698

matches are simply not happening enough.

4700

Like in the Fire Turns Blue, there is this talk of how between, you know,

4703

half a generation was lost because between 86 and 91, there were just no games.

4707

So half a generation was just lost and couldn't play international cricket and so on,

4712

which is kind of one of those tragic losses.

4714

Like we speak of, we know Mankads lost years during World War II,

4717

but those kind of gaps are just so common in women's cricket.

4720

And obviously, that affected you also in the sense that you didn't really play that many games

4725

till you eventually bowed out in 2012.

4729

But you also spoke about, you know, if you were an administrator,

4733

you would have nurtured a young Snehal better than what actually happened.

4736

So what really went wrong? Like where do you feel nurturing would have helped?

4740

Like, you know, where did you go wrong?

4742

With my own career?

4744

Yeah.

4745

So one thing was, I remember having this comparative example thrown about.

4751

I think this was the 2009 World Cup where we were all in Australia.

4755

And there was, I think we had gone there for a series before we were playing Australia in 2008.

4762

And there was a launch event, you know, like a press event for the upcoming 2009 World Cup.

4767

And there were some representatives from some of the top countries.

4770

Isha Goa was there for England, the Australians, of course.

4773

I think Susie Bates must have been there from New Zealand.

4777

And I remember at the time hearing or learning that England had kept the same team for the last four years.

4785

They had had that kind of vision that, you know,

4789

if we're going to do well in the World Cup, we need to give a lot of match experience to the players who we select.

4795

So they had essentially selected their World Cup team practically four years before.

4799

And by the time they came into that World Cup, all of their playing 11 and their key players had played about 50 ODIs.

4806

Yeah. So I remember that. I am thinking I'm so jealous of that.

4810

I'm so jealous of the fact that, you know, what I had heard at the time was these players are told that,

4816

you know, even if you get four ducks in a row, you're going to be in the team.

4819

I was like, I'm so jealous of that because I am constantly in this environment where despite doing well, I might get dropped.

4826

I mean, the 2009 World Cup, I didn't play a single game.

4829

The next World Cup that was happening after that, I wasn't in the team.

4833

There was like a domestic tournament before that. I did OK.

4836

But, you know, you would think that you would hold on to your place unless you get knocked off at the international level, at least.

4843

There was so much arbitrariness in selections.

4846

I mean, there was one phase where India Caps were being just handed out in a slightly ill manner.

4852

And it's this kind of environment that makes it difficult.

4857

And I'm not going to sit here and blame the environment, just the environment and, you know, not say that I could have done better.

4863

I've already said that. Looking back, I wish that I had taken the game more professionally.

4868

I had trained much more. I had played a lot more matches outside of what India or Maharashtra were providing to me,

4876

which are a lot of things that I did in the latter half of my domestic cricket career and saw value in that.

4882

But, you know, at the time, like we said, we were figuring things out.

4885

Didn't have this constant coaching, always moving from OK, now you're with the Western Railway coach, now you're at some other coach,

4893

whereas nowadays, every player you hear at the top level comes to the top level because they've had this constancy in coaching.

4900

They've had, you know, one person who's kind of, they always can go back to that one person, which really wasn't there for me.

4907

So there was no shortage of hard work.

4909

But there was these other things which I wish that I had done differently in terms of, you know,

4915

the time where I lost my place in the Indian team because of the suspect action calling.

4920

That was one of those phases where I was very much in between coaches, you know.

4924

Who should I be learning from exactly?

4926

That is one of the things I wish I had gotten sorted a lot earlier in life.

4931

And the fact is, there weren't as many people who were becoming personal coaches of women's cricketers back then.

4938

So that is something that I feel I could have done better in terms of approaching the game more professionally.

4943

I kind of got caught up in the Railways life and, you know, I have to keep the people at office also happy.

4949

I have to make sure I'm doing my best.

4951

Whereas now thinking back, I could have thought, you know, I mean, maybe that's just the people pleaser in me thinking that.

4957

But I could have thought, let office go to hell. I'm here to play cricket. I can play cricket for a finite amount of years.

4963

I don't care if people in the office are unhappy, but I'm going to spend more time on the ground.

4967

You know, maybe that's something that I could have thought.

4969

But again, the environment is such that you're penalized for that kind of thinking.

4972

I mean, if I just drop everything and run and not turn up to office for five days, I have to go back and face consequences at some point.

4979

Which is, I mean, things that happened.

4982

I, at one point, got charge sheeted in the office for not turning up when they called me to work on a weekend.

4989

So...

4990

They have charge sheets.

4992

They have charge sheets.

4993

This is the literal word, charge sheets. I can still remember the word sitting on those brown faded paper. Oh my God.

4999

Jesus.

5000

So, that was...

5003

It was a semi-professional environment.

5006

We keep talking about, you know, how India has professional contracts for the top 20 players.

5011

Okay, fine. 2015 onwards, that existed.

5014

In our time, there was no such thing as an India contract.

5017

You go to one tour.

5019

Okay, you earn a lot more money than you've ever earned before playing cricket for the BCCI.

5023

But suddenly, the next tour, that doesn't exist.

5027

So, that's something that we're aware of.

5030

That this kind of, there's no constancy, there's no financial support.

5034

Besides, you know, I keep complaining, but I have a railway job.

5038

Still, I'm thinking like this. I'm kind of stuck in this kind of thinking.

5041

So, I wish my thinking had been very different.

5044

The kind of thinking that now I approach my, not just media career,

5048

but also the career where I'm trying to build my own coaching, especially my online coaching.

5052

The kind of thinking that I'm applying right now.

5054

The kind of initiative I'm showing in trying to get the kind of guidance that I need.

5059

I wish I had those kind of attitudes back then.

5061

But I also recognize that the environment is very different

5064

and you have to be like, you know, some of those pioneers,

5068

this really driven person to crack that kind of a situation.

5074

And which is why I have serious respect for the likes of, you know, Mithali Rajul and Goswami

5079

and people who have been in this situation and excelled for so long.

5084

You know, one, when that happened, like around 2012, you were called for a suspect action

5088

and your career gradually petered out and you played your last game, I think, in 2015.

5092

So, what was that phase like?

5094

Did you feel that you were kind of left alone to fend for yourself, not enough support within the system?

5098

And at what point did you start figuring out that, okay, this is going to end at some point

5104

and I need to think about what I'm going to do beyond that.

5107

So, what was sort of that transitional phase like when you kind of started thinking seriously about what do I do next?

5113

And also as a general question, though we'll talk about women's cricket more in detail after the break,

5118

but just as a general question, when male cricketers end their careers,

5122

there are often different kinds of post-career pipelines that are there.

5126

They can enter local administrations or those who are fortunate enough can get into media

5130

and all these different kind of pipelines are there.

5133

There are precedents for what people have done and chances are that on average they've actually made more money also.

5140

So, is there something like that?

5142

I imagine for all of us, my career really probably ends when I drop down dead.

5148

But for sports people, that's not the case.

5150

For sports people, you are kind of in the peak of your physical life

5154

when suddenly it's over, everything that was the center of your life for so long is just done.

5159

So, is that something in a general sense that you know how have people around you coped with that

5164

and in a specific sense, how was it like you when you started kind of transitioning?

5169

It's actually funny that you know the period where after I was called for a suspect action

5174

and one year after that was really difficult, but the phase after that,

5179

maybe the last few years of my domestic career were actually the best cricket that I had ever played

5186

because I had gotten a lot of the things which I wish I had gotten right earlier, I had gotten them right later.

5191

But in the phase of where I was called for suspect action, I remember the actual day when the announcement was made.

5197

I found out on TV which was terrible.

5200

I mean, I remember being really angry at the media.

5203

You know, usually you guys don't cover women's cricket at all.

5206

Now you are putting it on the headlines just because I've been called for a suspect action.

5210

I found myself really angry at the media

5213

because you know there was this little bit of a stigma around suspect actions before,

5218

whereas now it's looked at more holistically.

5221

You know, people don't think Sunil Narayan is a bad person because he had a suspect action,

5224

whereas there was a little bit of a stigma around cheating

5228

and all those kind of things around suspect actions a little further back.

5233

And therefore, it was almost like I was being portrayed on TV as a villain

5237

and I really remember resenting that.

5239

I really remember being distressed, watching the news

5243

and seeing myself on the 8 o'clock news in the sports section.

5247

I'm like, come on, when India do well at the World Cup, you don't highlight us there.

5252

And now when there's some kind of infamy, immediately you guys wake up.

5257

So, I remember that.

5259

It was during a national camp at Bangalore.

5262

So, in that sense, I had immediate support.

5266

I remember Sandeep Patil was the director of the NCA.

5269

The next day, he called me into his office and he told me,

5273

you'll be fine in six months.

5275

I said, I'm going to be fine in three.

5277

And that determination was there.

5279

It was a near-miss kind of a situation.

5282

They take you to a lab.

5284

This lab happened to be in Perth, Australia,

5286

where they put electrodes on your arm and you're asked to bowl.

5290

Not electrodes, but, you know, they put those dots of fluorescent dots,

5296

which basically show up on a particular type of camera.

5298

And that camera tells you that, okay, roughly this bowl angle was this much,

5303

this bowl angle was this much.

5304

If the permissible limit is 15 degrees, my average is about 17 degrees.

5308

So, it was just a...

5310

I believed that, you know, it's just a minor adjustment that needs to be made.

5314

Strength levels need to be improved to make sure that, you know,

5317

the arm isn't taking that much of the load, those kind of things.

5322

Some technical adjustments were made in getting my action slightly more round-arm

5326

so as to not go past vertical, which can, you know, lead to that.

5330

On top of that, I have a naturally hyper-extended elbow.

5333

So, not as much as, you know, the Murlis or the Shoibs,

5336

but this is something that's fairly common in subcontinental bodies

5340

and especially slightly taller, longer bodies.

5343

So, therefore, the optical impression is just enhanced

5348

when you're watching an action with the naked eye.

5351

So, the immediate support was good because the coaches within that camp,

5355

we sat down, we kind of chalked out a plan.

5358

The months after that, it did take six months eventually,

5362

you know, despite my determination and young bullishness,

5366

but the months after that were difficult.

5370

I remember and really appreciate some of the Indian team players checking in,

5374

but I had zero idea who to talk to about the BCCI about this.

5378

I had zero idea who to talk to about my state association about this.

5382

I kept asking them for answers.

5384

Okay, when is there going to be an assessment?

5386

What is going to happen? What are the next steps?

5388

And there was very little communication.

5391

Eventually, there was a review a few months down the line.

5394

Then, once we were all confident, there was another review at the ICC level.

5399

Everything was fine, action back into legal status and bowling action cleared,

5404

but in that time, I could not bowl for my state.

5407

So, I was playing for my state as a batter,

5409

and this was the tricky period because then at one point,

5413

I lost my spot in the state team as well,

5415

which, you know, absolutely zero concept of,

5418

okay, now you're out of the team, you'll still be supported,

5420

you can still come to training, we'll still help you with that

5423

because you are a valuable member of the state side,

5426

you've been with the state side for the last 5-6 years, absolutely zero,

5430

no such support.

5431

It was a very much friend-for-yourself kind of a situation,

5436

a situation where you are shown who your real friends are,

5441

but eventually, I mean just through sheer determination

5445

and sticking to the kind of processes that we had mapped out in that first camp

5449

as to how we can fix it,

5451

and working with the coach while I was out of the camp as well.

5455

Again, correcting one of the mistakes of the past.

5459

I got back and I mean I'm pretty proud of the second half of that career.

5464

So, I wouldn't say my career petered out

5467

because I had some of my best years with Maharashtra after that.

5469

Yes, I didn't play for India again, but I captained India A.

5473

My last professional game was playing for India A against New Zealand.

5477

So, I was very close to breaking back into the Indian team.

5482

So, that part of the journey was difficult, but at the same time rewarding

5488

because like you said, you have to learn from these kind of things

5491

and sometimes only when these kind of things happen do you learn.

5494

So, there was definitely a change in my approach towards fitness,

5498

towards professionalism also.

5500

The situation in my Western Railway office also improved somewhat

5504

where I can be away from work a lot more than I could.

5507

So, that helped and I could train a lot more with the coaches

5511

and get the kind of match experience that I needed.

5514

I mean some of my best spells were in those 2014-2015 years

5519

and I retired in 2015.

5522

Like I said, I just made it to India A,

5525

felt like I was one step away from,

5527

one good performance away from making it back to the Indian team,

5530

but again didn't get selected into the Indian team after that India A game

5535

and no idea about what women's cricket looks like

5539

for the next rest of the year.

5541

After that series, what's going to happen?

5543

Even that series was just announced so last minute

5547

that I remember coming into that camp completely unprepared

5550

because we thought we were heading into an off season

5552

and suddenly New Zealand is visiting.

5554

That kind of situation, no idea when India is going to play next,

5558

no idea what to kind of build up to besides a vague target of the 2017 World Cup

5564

and this situation where there was a lot of uncertainty.

5566

So the question is do I want to then, at the age of 28-29,

5570

do I want to continue and give it another couple of years

5574

with an excruciating amount of hard work that had gone into those last couple of years

5578

which were leading to good performances.

5580

Do I want to do that all over again, again with the uncertainty

5584

whether I will play for India or not, close to 30,

5587

selectors usually prefer younger bowlers, younger players at that point,

5591

arbitrariness of selection and those kind of things

5594

or whether do I want to give myself some time to look to build a second career

5599

and I knew that because I was going to quit Railways,

5601

I had to make a living somehow, some other way

5605

and therefore whether that is the right time to think about giving myself time to do that

5610

and eventually I decided on the latter.

5614

Yeah, I mean that feels like an absolutely agonizing decision.

5618

Do you sometimes look back and wonder, had you stayed in the game,

5622

could things have been different, I mean you could have been part of the 2017 team for example,

5626

especially if you were bowling at your best at that point in time,

5630

is that a thought that stays with you or I guess it wouldn't come so much

5635

because you are extremely successful in what you are doing,

5638

but that may not have been the case,

5641

so is that a thought that sometimes comes to you, the counterfactual?

5644

No, I mean I think about it but I don't regret that decision at that time.

5650

There was also an element of having played cricket despite being only 28-29,

5655

having played cricket for 15 years

5657

and at the same time remembering and knowing because of my family background

5662

and this constant awareness that there are other things that can give me a lot of happiness

5672

which are out there, I didn't know what those things were.

5674

Also a determination to stay connected to cricket,

5676

that even though I will no longer be playing cricket,

5680

I will still be doing something or the other in the game

5683

because that was the primary skill I had at the stage where I am retiring.

5689

Again, zero idea what I will do.

5692

Also, those last few years, even though they were successful in terms of what I was getting out,

5697

they demanded more and more in terms of what I had to put in.

5701

As a fast bowler, there are always going to be a few injuries here and there,

5704

towards that last year or so, I had developed this weird pain in my ankles

5710

where after every game, I had to put both my feet in a bucket of ice.

5715

Those are all things which were building up and contributing to that decision.

5721

It's a hard life as a fast bowler, as a player who is fully committedly professional in an environment

5728

which is giving you no guarantee of results.

5731

Therefore, I don't have any regrets.

5734

I don't think, whatever, I had been at the 2017 World Cup

5737

because I was at the 2017 World Cup in another capacity.

5742

In a way, I don't feel like I have disconnected from the game or given up the game.

5748

I just feel like I have switched teams.

5751

I don't have regrets about how things happened.

5754

There is also a recognition that, like I said,

5757

I was a very different person from the people you would usually find at the women's cricket level,

5764

where people would think the railway job is never something you quit.

5768

Whereas, I have no doubt in my mind that this is something I am not going to do

5772

because I knew I could do other things.

5774

A lot of people ask me, why didn't you take up coaching after you quit?

5778

Because I knew that everyone can do coaching,

5782

but very few people can do what I do with the communication skills that I have,

5787

with the language skills that I have.

5789

I knew that I had the opportunity to contribute in different ways

5793

because I had already gotten a taste of that while I was playing.

5797

I never think about the counterfactual.

5800

I don't think about...

5802

That entire time at the 2017 World Cup, not once did I think,

5806

oh my God, this could have been me.

5809

But on the other hand, I was thinking, oh my God, wow, I am here.

5814

Fabulous. We will take a quick commercial break

5816

and when we come back on the other side, we will actually talk about your life after cricket,

5820

which to me, in a sense, is also incredibly inspiring and a lot to learn from there.

5825

So, we will take a quick commercial break before that.

5828

People often say, hey, cricket is not such a big sport.

5831

Only a few countries take it seriously.

5833

Well, let me put it like this.

5835

If you were to gather all the cricket fans in the world and make a country out of them,

5838

Cricketistan would be one of the biggest countries in the world.

5841

And the national app of Cricketistan would be the co-sponsor of this episode, Crick Heroes.

5846

For any casual cricketer or cricket fan, Crick Heroes is the final piece of the puzzle

5851

as far as cricket apps are concerned.

5853

Look, the other apps and websites will give you information, features, data,

5856

but you will be a passive consumer of big events.

5859

Crick Heroes makes you a participant.

5861

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5865

Well, Crick Heroes allows players everywhere to record their scorecards in real time,

5870

every match, even a gully match if you want.

5872

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5876

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5880

You might even find a coach there.

5882

10 million people use Crick Heroes.

5884

What's more, so do 38 national boards across the world and many state boards in India

5890

so that they can track every game that happens.

5892

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5894

So head on over to crickheroes.in and download Crick Heroes now.

5898

If you love cricket, you love Crick Heroes.

5902

Welcome back to The Scene on the Unseen.

5904

I'm chatting with Snehal Pradhan about her rich career.

5907

You know, before I ask my next question, I got to point out that I was also once reported

5911

for a suspect action unfairly by none other than Rahul Dravid.

5915

Now, I don't actually play any kind of cricket,

5917

but this was back in the days when I worked in Crick and Foil in the mid 2000s.

5921

And we used to play office cricket in our corridor with this little ball,

5924

which you could squeeze a lot.

5926

It was like halfway between a plastic ball and a squeezy ball.

5929

And I had discovered this technique where by squeezing it a lot and releasing it,

5933

just as you know, whatever I could impart great forward spin,

5937

which made it really fast, right?

5939

So Dravid came over once to play with us and I bowled him.

5943

My first ball, I was trying, you know, kind of a backwards spin kind of thing,

5947

and that was a wide.

5948

Next two balls, he was clean bowled when he in exasperation,

5951

he called me Shoaib Akhter and said, I can't play against you.

5954

But the irony was that it was all finger spin.

5957

There was no chucking involved.

5958

But leaving that aside and in case I give the impression that I also play cricket,

5963

I'd be absolutely useless in a field.

5966

So kind of moving on from your cricketing career,

5969

like one of the things that I'm actually excited talking about is this next part,

5972

because I have been thinking a lot in recent months about creators in general.

5977

About things like teaching, about things like how do you achieve excellence in what you do.

5982

And there are just so many dimensions to things that you've done in this period.

5987

In terms of writing, in terms of starting a YouTube channel and making that work,

5992

in terms of coaching and not just coaching cricket, but also coaching sports journalism.

5997

And in terms of doing commentary in two different languages.

6001

So let's start with what actually came first, which I don't know.

6004

So, you know, after your cricketing career was done, you know, where did you go next?

6008

What happened next?

6009

How were you thinking of what you want to do from now on?

6012

So writing came first and it happened in parallel with kind of the second half of my cricket career.

6019

There was this like since school.

6024

OK, so maybe I should go a little further back.

6028

When I was in, like I said, I changed schools at one point.

6033

The first school that I was in, where we were living with the joint family, was a convent.

6039

And you know, it is this fairly prestigious convent, this really old school, which has been around since my parents' time.

6046

My mother went to that school, my father went to the school next to it, which was a boys' convent.

6050

Which school was this?

6051

Both were run by the same institution.

St. Joseph's.

OK.

St. Joseph's Pashan.

And next door is Loyla's, where my father went and St. Joseph's was where my mother went.

6061

And they wanted me to get admission and you know, the whole convent, colonial obsession with the language,

6069

you know, you should be able to speak good English from nursery, otherwise you won't get admission kind of situation,

6075

created an environment at home where we were speaking a lot of English.

6078

So despite being a Marathi family, despite being a family where, you know, my grandparents had most of their education in Marathi,

6087

we were speaking a lot of English at home, mainly to get me into the habit of speaking in English, so I would fit into a convent school.

6094

Due to that fact, I've always had good English speaking skills.

6098

So therefore, I always enjoyed English throughout school.

6103

And I tried my hand at kind of writing throughout school, you know, small limericks, poems,

6110

not going to compete with your level of limericks, but the point being that I was dabbling around with the written form

6118

before I ever conceived, could conceive that, you know, I might make a living from it.

6123

So I had this fondness for writing, even though I had never actually written much.

6129

But during my years in Mumbai, I actually started writing blog.

6134

I started writing a blog and would write about pretty much anything that came to me.

6140

Some of my oldest entries were, you know, what we would now identify as listicles,

6146

vague philosophical ramblings on, you know, the meaning of sport and winning and losing and that kind of stuff.

6155

Eventually, I started writing about cricket also, started writing about cricket more frequently,

6160

started a separate blog just for my writing on cricket.

6165

So the previous blog could have been anything, book reviews, song reviews, you know, what this song meant to me, that kind of stuff.

6171

But this blog was more about what I was thinking about the game.

6176

I discovered Twitter around that time, probably 2013-ish,

6181

and discovered that, you know, there are people abroad who are dedicated women's cricket writers

6186

and are writing blogs about their women's cricket so as to give it more and more attention and that kind of things.

6193

And I thought, hey, that's something I can do.

6195

I can, you know, write blogs about domestic cricket, which no one ever talks about and no one ever covers.

6200

Everyone knows Julan Goswami, everyone knows Mithali Raj, okay fine, good.

6204

By now, you know, BCCI has taken over women's cricket and these people are slightly more famous than they were maybe 10 years ago.

6211

But domestic cricket, no one talks about us.

6214

So I started doing reviews of tournaments or, you know, previews of the season.

6218

I started writing that kind of stuff on my blog and putting it up on Twitter.

6222

Eventually, someone picked it up.

6224

Wisden India reached out saying that we would like you to write for us.

6228

And at that time, I was like, so absolutely naive, zero idea about how to have conversations about money.

6235

I wrote my first probably 10 odd articles for them, didn't even ask for any money.

6240

And later, you know, the good people at Wisden India reached out to me, hey, have you received your payment for this kind of thing?

6247

I was like, no, no, no, no, I haven't.

6249

So that was happening in parallel while I was playing cricket.

6253

My blog for Wisden India ran in that period.

6258

I was actually writing some kind of anti-BCCI stuff.

6261

I mean, I don't mean to be anti-BCCI, but I was writing about, you know, how women's cricket has changed,

6266

some for the better and some for the worse, while I was playing,

6269

which is kind of, yeah, which is kind of... I didn't even...

6272

Like I said, I was just so naive that I never even appreciated that there may be consequences for this kind of thing.

6278

Also, because it was such a small thing, I was like, no chance anyone of import is actually reading this, so it's okay.

6284

And then I was finding a sense of satisfaction and purpose through that,

6289

because again, like I said, you know, everyone can do coaching, but very few people were actually, very few cricketers.

6296

I don't think anyone else... I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone else was actually writing about the game while they were playing the game.

6303

And in this sense, I was kind of being inspired in a way by what was going on in other countries,

6309

where blogging about niche game is a very big and mainstream thing in its own right.

6315

There will be any... Pick any niche game.

6318

And I don't know why chess is coming to mind. I don't want to say chess right now.

6323

But lawn bowls... I'm sure there are very active blogs about lawn bowls and very active communities about lawn bowls in, for example, maybe Australia.

6334

So I was kind of following the leads of these kind of communities and writing and putting my stuff out on Twitter and finding that, oh, this is interesting.

6343

So after I quit, having no plan when I quit, but after I quit, one of the first things that I did was

6351

I reached out to some people within the media saying that, hey, this is what I've done before.

6356

Would you be interested in hosting these kind of articles?

6359

And they said yes. And they said, okay, we'll pay you X amount of money for each article and you write X amount of articles per month.

6367

I was like, oh, I can make some money here.

6370

It was not a lot of money, but it was... I had never been able to conceive that, you know, I might be able to support myself financially

6376

or even start of supporting myself financially through writing about cricket.

6380

I was like, this is cool. And so I started writing about cricket.

6383

I started discovering that, you know, rather than just writing from home, you can travel and cover tournaments.

6390

And there is something called accreditation where you become an actual member of the media when you gain that accreditation,

6398

which is basically a pass for a media person to cover a particular tournament.

6403

And then this very interesting little journey happened before the accreditation or... no, actually at that point,

6410

I had received accreditation and covered a 2016 T20 World Cup, covered a couple of women's games in that tournament.

6418

So that was my first ever assignment as a written journalist, you know, where I'm actually at the ground, I'm in a press box.

6425

Oh, so this is what a press box is like.

6427

You know, the heroes have kind of changed, rather than wanting to run into a Jhulan Goswami, I'm running into...

6433

Osman Swami would then... Oh my God, I read his work. He's sitting right here. That is so cool.

6438

Those kind of moments I'm having.

6440

Then I have this little bit of a journey. The Women's Big Bash has begun.

6448

Indians are going to be playing in it for the first time. Harban Pritkor and Smriti Mandana.

6452

I figure, I have a few friends in Australia. There are going to be Indians in Australia.

6457

There's going to be no one else really covering it from India.

6461

Why don't I travel and see if I can cover this tournament on my own, like totally freelance.

6468

Reached out to a few people saying, Hey, will you guys be interested in articles?

6471

It was nowhere near, you know, the cost of covering my trip. It was still going to be significantly out of pocket.

6477

But at the same time, because I was able to live with friends, I wasn't really incurring as much cost as I might have.

6483

I went to Australia for a couple of months.

6485

I went to Brisbane. I went to Melbourne. I went to Sydney.

6490

I just experienced that tournament as a journalist. I wasn't writing about it every day.

6497

But I would go to every game. I would sit in the designated area, which is what they pass through a press box.

6503

These are small community games. The WBBL is not as big a tournament as it was before.

6508

I also happened to be around at the same time, the Australian Open is being played.

6513

So I visited the Australian Open for the first time.

6516

So there is this exposure to a wider sporting experience and a different culture, a culture in the country which is sports mad,

6525

which really, I wouldn't say it was like a pivotal moment, but it was a moment of broadening of my horizons.

6534

Because I had been to Australia before. I had been to Australia three times as a player.

6537

But you are a player, you are staying in a hotel, you are going from a team bus, you are going to a ground,

6541

you are coming back from a team bus, you are coming back here.

6543

At most, you are going to a little bit of sightseeing at the end of it.

6547

Whereas here, I was mapping out my own directions, budgeting my own trip,

6552

figuring out what my travel schedule should be, booking my own flights.

6557

The entire experience was just so educational.

6560

And in terms of opening up, the WBBL is one of the best-run women's leagues in the world.

6566

So opening up to the possibilities of what women's cricket holds, that was a brilliant experience.

6573

And I still have no idea how I actually conceived of it and actually went ahead and did it.

6579

If I think about it now, I don't know if I will do that.

6582

But yeah, it was just such a new experience. At every step, I am discovering literally something new.

6589

For example, there are separate cycling tracks in Australia for only cyclists.

6594

You know, the small, small things which blow your mind.

6597

Or the fact that the trails here are so well marked.

6601

Or the cricket here is so well done.

6603

You know, they have a Christmas party.

6606

Christmas, of course, in Australia, it's summer. So they have a summer Christmas party on the ground,

6610

where after the match, they open up the ground for the audience and they have a band in the middle of the stadium

6615

and everyone's playing Christmas carols on a cricket ground.

6618

These are the kind of experiences which I would never have gotten if I had not gone on that kind of trip.

6623

And that was probably the first beginnings of my life as a writer, as a sports journalist,

6630

as a member of the written press, so to speak.

6634

But yeah, almost exploring this sporting landscape in a way I had never done before.

6641

As a player, the view is always very bracketed. It's always very narrow.

6646

And here I was trying to go as wide as I could.

6649

Yeah, that's fascinating. And you kind of brought back memories of my own.

6652

Because I remember in 2006, I really wanted to cover India too, to Pakistan.

6657

And the typical way of doing that was that you get a freelance gig with an English newspaper

6662

because that covers your costs. So I got a gig writing pieces for The Guardian

6666

and I did some small audio thing for the BBC while I was there.

6669

And my whole thing was I just want to cover the cost of this tour.

6672

So it wasn't even like make a profit. Just cover the cost.

6675

You want to go, you want to watch the cricket, you want to soak in the experience.

6678

So I kind of totally get that.

6680

I'm curious about craft here because, you know, one of the...

6686

And I don't want to embarrass you with praise, but you know, where you are as a writer,

6690

just looking at sort of your work over the last year, you don't get there overnight.

6695

You don't get there. You know, it takes many, many years.

6697

Like I look back on my own sort of progression as a cricket writer

6701

or many of the young writers that I've worked with that, you know,

6704

when you're young, you're trying so hard to impress.

6707

Sometimes you're overdoing the style, so on and so forth.

6710

It takes time for you to find your voice, to find the confidence,

6713

to find that terror where you can just sit back and do what you have to do.

6716

So, you know, how did that craft evolve in your case?

6720

Because I have to apologize and say I haven't read your earlier pieces

6724

from when you started writing.

6726

I've just read what you've done over the last year or so, and it's fantastic.

6729

And there's one quality that I noted in your work that cuts across

6732

not just your writing, but also your YouTube work,

6734

which is that you're not trying to impress.

6737

It's very straightforward. It is what it is.

6740

There's no added artifice to that, you know.

6743

So is that, again, something that is kind of natural?

6746

Is there a moment where you say that you kind of have to work at that moment

6750

if you get what I'm saying?

6752

So I'm very curious, like you did my writing course as well, for example.

6755

You're clearly a person who wants to get as much sort of exposure

6759

to different aspects of craft and thinking about writing.

6762

Take me a little bit through that journey of yours.

6765

I think to answer this question, I need to go back to my childhood.

6768

Please do, yeah, let's go back.

6772

And I need to go back to...

6775

I mean, my dad used to make regular trips to Mumbai at the time,

6778

and we had this custom that whenever he comes back from Mumbai,

6783

the first question my younger brother and I would ask him,

6786

what you got for us?

6788

He has to come back and he has to bring us a gift,

6791

which still in our family is called the what you got for us gift.

6795

And very often those would be books.

6798

Very often he would bring back your Nancy Drews and your Hardy Boys.

6801

There was no end of Enid Blyton's littered around my childhood.

6807

There was this memory of spending so many months reading Lord of the Rings,

6814

and our entire family was reading it.

6816

And it would just be situated in our bathroom

6820

because unfortunately we have a lot of people who used to read while in the toilet.

6825

And it is this kind of, maybe just an extension of that environment

6830

where English was emphasized at a young age.

6833

Therefore, reading was also emphasized at a young age.

6835

And I read exclusively fiction at the time.

6838

I found non-fiction boring.

6840

And it is interesting, recently someone put out a quote on Twitter saying that

6844

non-fiction greater than fiction.

6847

I was like, yeah, maybe.

6849

I mean, non-fiction might be what I read now

6852

and what I find really helps me level up in whatever I am doing.

6857

But I spent my entire childhood reading exclusively fiction,

6861

reading like fantasy, a little bit of sci-fi here and there.

6865

And maybe that's what ingrained a sense of storytelling in me.

6869

Because I didn't, like I said, I did a BSc after my graduation.

6874

I played cricket for 15 years.

6876

I have no formal education in writing.

6879

My education is just my childhood, my experiences, the fact that I like to read.

6884

And once in a while, I will take the effort of reading an autobiography

6888

and those are the kind of books that interested me at the time.

6891

So, the evolution of the craft definitely starts from the reading habit,

6896

which is just a part of my childhood

6898

and again, unconsciously has helped me in being a writer

6903

and being someone who is able to make a living from writing today.

6907

And beyond that, I remember reading a lot.

6912

Like I said, that phase when I discovered Twitter

6914

and suddenly discovered there is so much to read

6917

and I suddenly discovered that there are so many writers

6920

who write about cricket and think about cricket.

6923

And like I said, they have from the media a very different background

6928

and a very different view

6930

and me as a player, I am reading that view

6933

and suddenly I think their view is so much,

6936

I wouldn't say wider or larger, but just different.

6939

It is just so different as someone in the media

6942

and someone as a writer

6943

and really good pieces of cricket writing at the time.

6946

And again, most of my reading has been restricted to cricket

6950

and this is something I am consciously trying to do nowadays,

6952

is read more about other sports and what not.

6954

But at the time, Osman Sami Uddin,

6956

Andrew Fidel Fernando,

6958

Jared Kimber is writing some really funny irreverent stuff.

6961

All those are kind of probably influencing that.

6965

Very early on, I discovered this quote,

6969

which is,

6970

Copy technique, not style.

6972

And I actually started doing that.

6974

I was like, okay, this person is writing this nice piece.

6976

What technique are they using here?

6978

Not consciously, but unconsciously.

6981

I wasn't actually trying to name the technique.

6984

I was just trying to say,

6985

okay, can I write a piece which is something similar

6987

to what this person is writing?

6989

And for the longest part,

6992

I had no idea what these official journalistic terms were.

6995

I had no idea what an opinion piece was.

6997

I had no idea the difference between a feature and a stew,

7000

and a report, and a reported piece.

7002

I had no idea what a news peg was.

7004

Again, these are words that I discovered

7006

when I kind of got into the field

7008

and I had to kind of overcome my ignorance and ask,

7013

what is a news peg?

7015

Those are the kind of things, those are the ways I learned.

7018

Being a freelancer had its advantages

7021

in terms of being kind of on the outside

7025

and therefore not being insulated into any one environment.

7028

At the same time, I missed out, I think,

7031

on these constant exposure to these really good writers,

7036

which I think sometimes being in an organization gives you.

7040

And it is funny,

7042

in the process of building out my sports journalism course,

7044

I went back and read a few of my pieces.

7047

And some of the pieces were like,

7049

yeah, okay, good, honest effort.

7051

Some of the pieces were actually good.

7053

I picked up some old pieces as examples of, you know,

7056

writing that I had done which worked well

7058

and which kind of still holds up.

7060

So, I wouldn't call it talent,

7063

but I would call it a culmination of the environment

7066

where A, English was emphasized,

7068

B, reading was emphasized,

7070

C, education was kind of emphasized,

7073

and then add into that my unique experiences in sport,

7077

allowing me to kind of

7079

bring a viewpoint that others didn't

7081

and therefore kind of giving me a

7083

point of difference in,

7085

you know, amongst so many other bloggers.

7087

No one was writing about women's domestic cricket.

7089

No one was writing about,

7091

well, not no one, but very few people were writing about women's cricket.

7094

So, therefore when someone wrote about it,

7096

even if it wasn't written really well,

7098

people read it and people shared it.

7100

And even if it is just a

7102

like a reportee piece on just providing information,

7105

people read, people shared it,

7107

and therefore I got a little bit of a

7109

following on social media.

7111

But honestly,

7113

it's only in the process of

7115

building out this sports journalism course

7117

that I have really thought about

7119

what makes me a good writer,

7121

what works, what doesn't work,

7123

what are the things I tend to use,

7125

what are the writing devices I tend to use more,

7127

what has contributed to

7129

how I have progressed as a writer so far.

7131

Also, one other

7133

non-craft

7135

thing that is an essential element,

7137

I think, of why I have

7139

succeeded as a writer is

7141

being brave in terms of what I write.

7143

Because, you know, I am constantly

7145

almost toeing that line

7147

being someone who is

7149

in the cricketing system,

7151

but also sometimes having to criticize that same system.

7153

But

7155

when in doubt, unlike

7157

like I said, my evolution as a person

7159

over the last few years

7161

has reflected

7163

in my professional work as well,

7165

where I have more often than not

7167

silenced that inner doubt

7169

and been brave

7171

and tried to

7173

tell my truth, if not

7175

the truth as I see it.

7177

Those are actually two words which I

7179

try to remind myself of, you know, courage and truth

7181

are two things that I

7183

want to use in the content

7185

that I create.

7187

You mentioned coaching, and

7189

one of the things I realized

7191

after I taught my writing course for a while,

7193

that it in a subtle way changed the way

7195

I looked at my own past writing as well.

7197

Where, perhaps unlike you, I mean

7199

I might like some of my earlier work, but a lot of my earlier

7201

work were like cringe max, like what is this?

7203

What am I doing? I tell my students

7205

not to do this, and I am doing the exact same thing.

7207

And it just kind of sharpened

7209

the way I look at my own writing

7211

and sort of, has that

7213

been a process with you? Through your

7215

multiple sort of coaching

7217

lines, or rather your coaching

7219

lanes, like one lane of course is sports journalism

7221

and writing, there is another lane, which is

7223

cricket, where I was going through a bunch of your

7225

fabulous videos on batting,

7227

right? And it's so intricate

7229

and so detailed and all of that.

7231

And do you sometimes wish

7233

that you had been coached at the start of your career

7235

by someone like you?

7237

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean

7239

half of the expression

7241

through I mean through the

7243

content right now, is that, you know,

7245

this information is now

7247

available, take it, do

7249

something with it. Yes,

7251

I mean, having had a career where, you know,

7253

didn't really have this one fixed

7255

coach moving from influence

7257

to other influence, it's

7259

not been the driving motivation

7261

of what I do, but it's been a

7263

part of that, it's been, you know,

7265

the thrill of being able to share

7267

this, and rather

7269

than in a cricket academy, it being

7271

learned, for example, the cricket coaching

7273

videos, in a cricket academy,

7275

50 people learning it, or maybe 20 people

7277

learning it, the 50,000 people learning it.

7279

That was

7281

a revolution in terms

7283

of, you know, the power of YouTube,

7285

and I was lucky, fairly lucky enough

7287

that I could discover that power pretty

7289

much accidentally and fairly early

7291

on in the whole creative

7293

journey. In terms of the writing part,

7295

yes, absolutely, like I said,

7297

I've really started thinking about my

7299

writing now, and

7301

therefore I've tried to

7303

reverse engineer my own process, which is

7305

instinctive until now. I would just

7307

put words on the

7309

page, and then,

7311

you know, try and refine them, it's a very

7313

crude process, but a very instinctive

7315

process, a process kind of

7317

also driven in large

7319

part by emotion, because very often

7321

I'm not someone who's employed

7323

to write every day, so therefore I write

7325

when I feel like it, and I have that,

7327

you know, again, a lucky

7329

situation where I have that.

7331

So I was usually writing

7333

from a place of emotion, I'm angry about this,

7335

I'm sad about this, I'm happy about this,

7337

wonderful match played, oh, this

7339

could have been better, I wish this was

7341

different. Those kind of things usually

7343

came across in my writing,

7345

and maybe that's one point of

7347

connect, and one point of, you know, why

7349

it has connected with

7351

so many people. But in terms

7353

of the actual process, now,

7355

after having

7357

built out that course, after

7359

having created a process which other

7361

people can take, and, you know,

7363

you can apply it to yourself and see

7365

if it works for you,

7367

now I follow that process.

7369

Now I sit down and I go

7371

through my own processes and see if I've

7373

met my own checklist,

7375

because this is literally how I've,

7377

you know, it's absolutely like how a cricketer

7379

will identify

7381

that this is your process,

7383

results and processes, we talk about it. When

7385

your hand comes

7387

this close to your ear, the ball goes

7389

on off-stump line. When

7391

you tick X, Y, Z boxes in

7393

writing, the piece is likely

7395

to come out better, cleaner,

7397

clearer, like you

7399

constantly emphasise, and

7401

therefore, that is

7403

something that I follow now. Whereas before

7405

it was very instinctive,

7407

and like a year ago, if you had asked

7409

me how you do it, I would not have been able to

7411

tell you. I would just like, I write when I'm angry.

7413

That's what I would have said.

7415

A good reason to write

7417

among other reasons. So,

7419

you know, one of the things that I kind of

7421

talk about in my course and I also

7423

draw a cricket metaphor

7425

from it is mindful learning and

7427

learning that you're just kind of taking

7429

by osmosis. So a lot of cricket

7431

learning is mindful, where you're, if you

7433

go in the nets for the first time, you know,

7435

the way your feet are moving, your elbow,

7437

the balance of your body, all of that.

7439

You're mindful about it later, you internalise

7441

it completely, and you don't need

7443

to actually think consciously about it.

7445

Now, in your case, the learning process seems to have

7447

been, and again, a reading habit, I keep saying, is the

7449

best way to become a good writer. So

7451

a lot of it seems to have come from osmosis,

7453

just by reading a lot. You read a lot of great

7455

storytelling, and then that translates

7457

into the way you write, and you've picked

7459

up a lot of good habits without even realising

7461

it, and that's not mindful.

7463

And then some of it is mindful, especially when

7465

we start teaching, you know, you start

7467

noticing that stuff mindfully, or if you're studying

7469

a writer, you like your reverse engineer, what they've done,

7471

and you know, all of that.

7473

So, like, I keep reminding

7475

myself, though I always say when

7477

it comes to reading, that for me

7479

there's no difference. I mean, as long as

7481

you're reading, I don't care if it's mindful or

7483

otherwise, because if what you're reading is something that

7485

captivates you, you'll pick up things from

7487

it by osmosis. But do you

7489

feel that it helps

7491

to be more mindful, that we should all be

7493

more mindful in terms of craft, of the

7495

things that we do, whether it is something in a

7497

cricketing technique sense, whether

7499

it is something in a writing sense,

7501

you know, all of these things.

7503

You know, it's funny,

7505

you will try

7507

to be mindful, or my recent experience

7509

has been, I will try to be mindful about

7511

reading or consuming any

7513

kind of content, and you know, I

7515

teach a multimedia sports journalism course,

7517

so it's, you know, videos, podcasts,

7519

writing, that kind of thing.

7521

So, I keep saying that, you know, whatever

7523

content you consume, you're

7525

going to pick up something from it, and

7527

you should try and actively do that,

7529

even if it's, you know, watching your favourite Netflix show.

7531

And a lot of these things just

7533

come and express themselves

7535

in content so randomly.

7537

Having not made

7539

notes, at some

7541

point, something will strike

7543

me. Like, recently I wrote a

7545

piece on Ashwin, and

7547

I ended it with this line,

7549

when is it okay to drop the alpha,

7551

when the pack is

7553

stronger without him? A wolf

7555

reference, okay? So, again,

7557

where did this line come from? One of my

7559

sports journalism students asked me, how did you

7561

come up with this line? Game of

7563

Thrones!

7565

And I was not

7567

mindfully watching Game of Thrones, and you know

7569

that line in Game of Thrones where the strength

7571

of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is

7573

the pack? That's just what somehow

7575

popped up in my mind, and I thought, okay, let's use

7577

a wolf reference, that kind of a thing.

7579

I was not mindfully watching Game of Thrones,

7581

but it turned up.

7583

I don't know how, I don't know why, I can't

7585

really explain it. So,

7587

there have been instances where, you know,

7589

stuff in my notes has

7591

really helped improve

7593

the content that I have put out, and

7595

there have been instances where, you know, stuff

7597

just comes so randomly and that

7599

sticks with people. So, I would

7601

probably say it's a good habit to develop

7603

that mindful consumption,

7605

but, I mean,

7607

who are we if we can really understand,

7609

we're not going to pretend to understand how our brains

7611

work. And just like at

7613

the subconscious level, there is so much weird

7615

stuff happening, and when it will

7617

be useful and when it will be harmful,

7619

God alone knows. Yeah, well said, that makes

7621

a lot of sense. Let's kind of talk about

7623

your YouTubing now, because I was watching your video

7625

about that intimidating video

7627

I referred to at the beginning about doing commentary

7629

twice a day and all that, and at the beginning, there is

7631

this sequence, this montage where you're making

7633

filter coffee, and I straight away thought of Peter McKinnon,

7635

the YouTuber whose coffee montages

7637

are really famous. So, tell me

7639

a little bit about what got you into try

7641

YouTubing? Did you

7643

intend to do cricket stuff or did you

7645

intend to do vloggy stuff? Who are the

7647

YouTubers that you kind of

7649

like? What were the kind of

7651

values that you picked up mindfully

7653

from people? Like that whole coffee montage,

7655

I just looked at it and I thought she must have

7657

watched Peter McKinnon, so now you can confirm

7659

if that's true or not. But,

7661

take me a bit through your

7663

early part of your YouTube journey as well.

7665

I have watched Peter McKinnon,

7667

but I must say that, you know, again, this is

7669

the weird, unconscious, subconscious stuff that I'm

7671

talking about. I am 100% sure that

7673

I did not think about Peter McKinnon

7675

probably for a year or so,

7677

even while I was making that coffee montage

7679

before you brought up his name.

7681

Like, I watched his videos probably a long

7683

time ago. But, again,

7685

you know, subconsciously, what all we

7687

internalize, God alone knows.

7689

If someone can figure out the subconscious

7691

one day, it will be a very

7693

big achievement. But,

7695

YouTube was a very

7697

interesting phase. Again, I must emphasize

7699

that this was a phase where

7701

I was receiving a lot of support from home.

7703

Again, not

7705

having a regular job

7707

and I say that with air quotes.

7709

Having quit

7711

my railway job, you know,

7713

much to the consternation of my grandfather

7715

who still wants me to do engineering

7717

and have a permanent

7719

job and a pension. There was a tremendous

7721

amount of support from home. I was back in Pune living

7723

with my parents. And

7725

there was this space

7727

to kind of, you know, figure it out yourself.

7729

I went to Australia for a couple of months.

7731

There was...

7733

Therefore, I

7735

was in a phase of my life where I had a lot of time.

7737

You know, I was writing from time to time

7739

and that kind of paid the bills.

7741

But, it was not my job.

7743

I was not doing it every day. So, I had

7745

some time in my life kind of figuring out

7747

what I would

7749

like to do, briefly flirting with the idea

7751

of writing a book.

7753

And then I...

7755

This is one of my favorite

7757

stories in life about, you know, what

7759

can lead you where. Then

7761

I started playing Pokemon Go.

7763

Okay.

7765

Again, you know, 90s kid

7767

having grown up watching those cartoons and

7769

Pokemon being one of those cartoons. This game

7771

suddenly took over the world and I was like, okay, let's

7773

try it out. And

7775

having no idea how to play it,

7777

I randomly Googled

7779

or maybe went onto YouTube and tried

7781

to learn how to play it. And this is the first time I had

7783

consciously used YouTube to learn something.

7785

Until that, you know, YouTube was a place where I

7787

watched trailers once in a while or

7789

YouTube was a place where videos

7791

I was intentionally watching happened to be

7793

hosted. I didn't go on to

7795

YouTube to actually watch something.

7797

So, this is the first time I'm on YouTube and I'm

7799

watching this video

7801

by a vlogger in

7803

the US. His name is Nick.

7805

His channel's name is Trainer Tips and

7807

he's basically making daily vlogs

7809

explaining his processes

7811

of playing Pokemon Go. He's a Pokemon Go

7813

nerd. And I'm like, oh, these videos

7815

are cool. And I start playing

7817

Pokemon Go. I keep watching his videos regularly.

He has this

lovely vloggy

style.

And I think, hey, maybe I

7827

should try that. And

7829

that's literally how the YouTube channel started.

7831

I made a few calls.

7833

Happened to get some advice

7835

from the person who today is

7837

the head of production for

7839

my YouTube channel. And

7841

he basically told me, use this camera, use

7843

that camera. This is fine. That is fine. Just go

7845

and do it. And yeah, I was kind of just

7847

imitating what I was seeing on

7849

YouTube, what I was seeing on, what I was

7851

seeing other people do. And at the time,

7853

I had just gotten a dog. He was about

7855

a year old. And therefore, I was

7857

spending a lot of time outdoors with him.

7859

I thought, okay, let's... And I'm

7861

an outdoor person. I like hiking. I like

7863

going on any kind of

7865

trip which is taking you closer to

7867

nature and that kind of stuff. Even like

7869

today, it's a big part of my life.

7871

But I think maybe I can make

7873

a show about cricket

7875

done outdoors. You know, someone

7877

talking about cricket but doing it

7879

outdoors. Just randomly trying to

7881

combine whatever passions I have

7883

in the most generic

7885

way possible. So I started making vlogs.

7887

If you go back to the first three videos on my

7889

channel, they are vlogs where

7891

I'm exploring some place and

7893

talking about cricket side by side. And

7895

this is a time where, like I

7897

said, I have a lot of time in my life.

7899

Well, I have more time than...

7901

I had time.

7903

And therefore, I'm on YouTube learning.

7905

I'm learning how to use a camera.

7907

I'm on YouTube learning how to

7909

shoot. I'm on YouTube, most of

7911

all, most important of all, learning how to edit my

7913

own videos. Again, I am a

7915

BSc graduate who played cricket

7917

for 15 years, worked in a government office,

7919

have zero idea about all this

7921

technology works. And suddenly YouTube

7923

is teaching me all of this. I was like, oh,

7925

this is so cool. And that

7927

process of learning and

7929

implementing what

7931

I've learned, it gives you a little bit of a

7933

high. It gives you a little bit of a

7935

sense of satisfaction. This is that

7937

A, it's so new.

7939

Maybe everyone nowadays finds

7941

this very normal, you know, having a YouTube channel and

7943

doing all this. But 2016,

7945

I remember going to the YouTube

7947

office and the head of YouTube

7949

India or head of YouTube sports,

7951

I think head of YouTube India, he's like, oh, I remember

7953

in 2016-17, you were the only

7955

channel who was doing this. And it happened

7957

to be so. I was, you know, happened

7959

to be one of the first people who discovered that

7961

this process of learning and this process of creating

7963

using what you've learned on YouTube

7965

is fun. And so therefore, I was just

7967

doing it for fun. And

7969

the fourth video I made, I thought, let's

7971

okay, let's mix it up

7973

and let's make a video on how to choose a

7975

bat. So that was the first how to

7977

video I made. And

7979

I made that video. It's still in a vlog

7981

style because that's what I

7983

liked to do. And I still like

7985

it more than

7987

hardcore tutorials. But

7989

I made that video and it kind of exploded.

7991

And suddenly my channel has

7993

4,000 subscribers. I'm like, oh,

7995

there's something here. So let me

7997

think about it. Let me try and do it seriously.

7999

And that's

8001

that's kind of how YouTube started.

8003

And you have, I think, more than 300,000 now

8005

or something like that? Some

8007

2,80,000 right now.

8009

2,80,000 right now. Okay.

8011

So like one of the things I noted, which I

8013

alluded to earlier, but one of the things I noted

8015

about your YouTube

8017

as it is now from the recent videos that I

8019

watched is the lack of self-consciousness.

8021

Is that it's just, you know,

8023

you're not overthinking it. You're not trying to be

8025

too stylized despite the filter

8027

coffee montage. It's

8029

almost like what you see is what you get. And

8031

you know, one of the sort of

8033

the things that I say that creators

8035

should pay more attention to and should

8037

cultivate. And that's an important quality. It's just

8039

authenticity in terms of being authentic

8041

to who you are. All the creators I

8043

enjoy listening to in podcasts or watching

8045

on YouTube are just authentic to who

8047

they are. You know,

8049

whatever the subject might be of the podcast

8051

or their particular video, whatever,

8053

I'm really watching it for them. I've kind of got

8055

on a comfort level with them. And therefore

8057

that's why I'm there. That's why I'm hooked.

8059

That's why I'm kind of going there.

8061

So, you know, again, is this something that

8063

was there from the start? Or is

8065

it something that you kind of evolve

8067

to? Like did you, was there a time where you

8069

were overthinking it? Was there a time

8071

where, you know,

8073

you thought more stylistic takes were

8075

important? Or you just

8077

figured out that this is the easiest way to do

8079

it and not to overthink it and

8081

so on and so forth.

8083

I don't think that's completely what

8085

it is. Like, for example,

8087

that video that you mentioned, The Day in the Life,

8089

you know, it starts with me really

8091

bleary-eyed. And what

8093

you're not trying too hard to make yourself look

8095

good, which is great, which is

8097

yeah. And in that video, I was

8099

consciously doing that. Like, literally, I decided

8101

first thing in the morning, I'm going to film.

8103

But while watching it back, I was like, Oh God, that

looks so bad.

I disagree.

And, you know,

later on in the video,

8113

looking at it and thinking, Oh, there's like a weird

8115

curly hair sticking out here.

8117

And this should have

8119

been better and that should have been better. And when I'm filming,

8121

I do try and

8123

present.

8125

There is absolutely, I mean, it's kind of

8127

become part of my job, presenting.

8129

But at the same time,

8131

not presenting

8133

too much.

8135

If you meet me outside of

8137

YouTube, I'm definitely

8139

going to talk differently. I don't have, I have

8141

a script, for example, on YouTube.

8143

Usually, I'll have a fair idea of what I want to

8145

say. I will do takes.

8147

I'm not, you know, this

8149

absolute authenticity person.

8151

But at the same time, as a person,

8153

I'm not a

8155

person who worries a lot about

8157

how I look. I'm not

8159

a person who, you know,

8161

I've never been into makeup.

8163

In fact, that's one of my worst,

8165

that's one of the things I like the least

8167

about, you know, having to sometimes

8169

work in TV or in a studio,

8171

the just uncomfortable

8173

amount of makeup that they put on

8175

us. I've never been someone who

8177

has, you know,

8179

consciously gone out of the way

8181

to dress in a certain way.

8183

Usually, I'll just be most

8185

comfortable in what I'm most comfortable.

8187

And I think that comes across.

8189

That comes across as,

8191

you know, even stylistically

8193

of, I'm okay

8195

with a first thing in the morning

8197

shot because that's what it's supposed to be. It's a first

8199

thing in the morning shot. But if it's supposed to be

8201

a shot where I'm really trying to

8203

convey

8205

a crisp, organized

8207

look, which is still me, I

8209

will do that. I will put in the effort to

8211

make sure that I am

8213

so presentable. And there

8215

is a certain amount of,

8217

I mean, off camera, I'm slightly different.

8219

But only slightly.

8221

And that's probably

8223

the best way to describe it.

8225

Yeah, no, I get what you're saying that, you know,

8227

like even the intros to my podcast

8229

for example, like in this conversation, I'm just being me.

8231

But in the intro to my podcast, I am

8233

kind of presenting, but it's also kind of

8235

me. It's not contrived.

8237

That's a similar thing. So I get what you mean

8239

when you say you're presenting and you've got a script

8241

and all that. Yeah, I get that. But at the same

8243

time, it doesn't feel contrived.

8245

I'm not trying to make it not feel contrived.

8247

Yeah.

8249

While at the same time, I'm not trying to make it,

8251

you know, unless it's a vlog like

8253

that, I'm not trying to make it look completely

8255

casual either. Yeah.

8257

I mean, I will pay more attention to the lighting

8259

than I will to hairstyle.

8261

That's me. Yeah.

8263

That's kind of remarkable because I think

8265

that kind of lack of self-consciousness

8267

is just great. Like, you know,

8269

I'm also thinking of starting something

8271

on YouTube and that self-consciousness

8273

about just the physical aspect

8275

of it is, you know, kind

8277

of the biggest stumbling block.

8279

Though I know that once I start and I get past it, it's

8281

kind of fine. But, you know, audio is easy

8283

that way. You don't really have to

8285

worry. There I totally agree,

8287

which is why, I mean, you know, out of the commentary

8289

work that I do, doing

8291

radio commentary is my favorite

8293

because there it's not about what you

8295

look like. It's about what you know

8297

and how you say it. And

8299

that is the

8301

probably most natural form of

8303

commentary that I've

8305

experienced. And that is

8307

something that I really enjoy doing purely

8309

for the reason that, you know, you don't have to present

8311

visually. You just need to present

8313

almost intellectually and

8315

vocally. So, let's talk

8317

about commentary. Like, you know,

8319

there are very different views of

8321

what good commentary is. Before

8323

satellite television kind of took over India,

8325

if you go back to the Ritchie Beno School of Thinking,

8327

the Ritchie Beno School of Thinking really

8329

is that the viewer can see what is happening

8331

on the screen. You don't need to describe it.

8333

If you have something to say that adds

8335

to that, say it. Otherwise, keep

8337

quiet. Whereas, you know,

8339

the brief on Indian satellite television

8341

for the early group of commentators in

8343

the 90s was simply that don't let

8345

there be a quiet moment. So, you

8347

kind of had to talk. You had to sort

8349

of fill all the space with the

8351

description and that there was a danger

8353

there that then you just get banal and

8355

you know, all of those things kind

8357

of happen. So, when you started

8359

doing commentary,

8361

what was the kind of brief you gave to yourself?

8363

Like, how does one define good

8365

commentary? And obviously, it's different on TV and

8367

radio because radio, the person isn't actually

8369

seeing the action. So, you got to get into

8371

that as well. But what was your notion

8373

of commentary going in? How

8375

did it evolve? How did your style as

8377

a commentator evolve? And what did you find difficult

8379

and what did you not find difficult,

8381

so to say? So, my

8383

first experience with commentary was probably

8385

Australia, where I went

8387

and you know, word got

8389

around that the someone from India

8391

here and since there was subjects of

8393

interest in terms of two Indian players,

8395

ABC Radio wanted to get some perspective,

8397

get the Indian perspective and that was

8399

the first time I put on a mic

8401

and quite nervous. Luckily,

8403

I had the role there of an expert.

8405

So, you know, you would usually

8407

describe commentators in two roles.

8409

One is a caller and one is an expert, where the

8411

caller is having to, especially

8413

on radio, describe what happened

8415

and the expert will have to

8417

describe why it happened. So, the

8419

first few opportunities that I got were

8421

opportunities which were usually, you know, in the

8423

break commentary where I could just talk about

8425

my experience with women's cricket

8427

and that felt fairly

8429

natural, it felt fairly,

8431

you know, okay, I know my stuff.

8433

So, therefore, I can

8435

put it across. Like I said, I mean

8437

communication in English had

8439

always been a strength.

8441

So, this was just about

8443

overcoming those initial butterflies of, oh my

8445

God, your life and

8447

getting started and once I got started,

8449

I used to usually get into the flow. So, that

8451

was how radio went.

8453

When I went to TV

8455

for the first time, this was, I got an opportunity

8457

to commentate on a challenger trophy,

8459

a women's challenger trophy.

8461

First time commentating with the

8463

BCCI, first time commentating

8465

on something that is going up on TV on a major

8467

channel like Star Sports.

8469

There, the brief to myself was

8471

play your role.

8473

Again, usually I was only slotted

8475

as the expert because inexperienced

8477

as a caller. In India, the culture is

8479

kind of different in TV commentary. The roles

8481

mix. A former cricketer

8483

can be both expert and caller depending

8485

on your position in the roster.

8487

Usually, my

8489

role has been of the expert

8491

being trying to add

8493

some layer of insight and

8495

that was probably one brief I had to myself

8497

that, you know, if this is happening, what is

8499

the, what is the background story?

8501

And that's

8503

one area I worked really hard.

8505

The whole journalistic training of, you know,

8507

interviews, research

8509

really helped in that

8511

sense that I remember

8513

that challenger trophy in fact.

8515

I got there a day before.

8517

I tried to watch practice.

8519

You know, I arranged to stay with

8521

a friend, hadn't actually got official

8523

accommodation that day. But I

8525

arranged to stay with a friend, watched practice.

8527

The next night, once I checked into

8529

my official accommodation, which is the same hotel the

8531

players were staying, I went around room

8533

to room and sat the players

8535

down and had a chat with them. What's

8537

your backstory? Where do you come from? And especially

8539

the younger players, because

8541

I had been retired a couple of years. There were players

8543

who I had not played with and against. I didn't know

8545

their stories. I had to make sure

8547

I knew their stories because like I am the voice of

8549

these people. I am the one

8551

who's responsible with telling their stories. So I

8553

had to make sure I knew those stories. So I went

8555

room to room chatting.

8557

Didi, up, that kind of

8559

a, like completely

8561

unscheduled, unannounced, hi, I'm just going to

8563

take 15 minutes of your time and ask you about your life

8565

kind of conversations.

8567

And that helped. I mean,

8569

if you are caught on a

8571

on a moment where, you know, the

8573

caller has thrown to you, Snehal, tell us

8575

about this person. And you don't know

8577

that comes across

8579

on TV or on commentary

8581

as bad commentary. It comes across that you're faking

8583

it. And if you actually have

8585

done the research, then you can

8587

tell the stories. And that might have been the

8589

brief I gave to myself is that, you know,

8591

a, it's your responsibility to tell these

8593

stories, b, it's your responsibility to grow

8595

the game. And that

8597

is kind of one of the things that

8599

has driven a lot of my

8601

later career. I mean, even

8603

one of the reasons I got into

8605

writing on women's cricket and I did

8607

most of my early writing on women's cricket

8609

was that no one was writing

8611

about women's cricket. And I knew I could

8613

and I knew I could make an impact.

8615

So the same kind of awareness

8617

while going into commentary where

8619

if you do this well, it will help grow

8621

the game in whatever small way.

8623

They are the story. They are the ones who

8625

are going to do it primarily.

8627

I am just a storyteller.

8629

That was kind of the brief I gave

8631

myself. But I always

8633

had an awareness that, you know, unless

8635

both those aspects are in sync,

8637

the value of what is happening

8639

on the field won't go across to the viewer

8641

or the listener.

8643

One kind of strand, one sense that

8645

I got through your writings and your

8647

videos and stuff was that

8649

much of the stuff that you did after

8651

actually retiring as a player was

8653

driven by your passion for

8655

women's cricket in India. Like you talk

8657

about how you loved coaching

8659

because you didn't get that coaching

8661

and now all these girls have access

8663

to that coaching. Similarly,

8665

writing about the women's game, nobody else

8667

is doing it, so you're doing it. Not just

8669

coaching cricket, also coaching sports journalism.

8671

You're also now not just

8673

writing about women's cricket, but just

8675

writing about cricket, you know, writing about cricket

8677

really, really well. So is that

8679

passion still sort of the single

8681

driving force that gets you into all of this

8683

or do you see yourself as a creator

8685

outside of someone who's come

8687

as a former player herself? Do you also

8689

see yourself as a creator?

8691

I noticed that you also got another

8693

sideways YouTube channel which is not about

8695

cricket coaching, which is just about vlogging

8697

and you did a recent vlog about the trek you took

8699

and stuff. So was it always

8701

a case that you thought that, oh, I'm a creator

8703

and I'll do these cricket things

8705

or were you driven into these things

8707

because of your passion for cricket and

8709

then you kind of began to redefine and

8711

expand. So what's been your thought

8713

process and your sort of

8715

the way that you look at yourself?

8717

I definitely think of myself as a creator,

8719

but this creator would not exist

8721

if that passion

8723

for women's cricket was not there. I mean

8725

that was the

8727

material that needed an outlet

8729

and that outlet happened to be

8731

starting with writing and mostly

8733

the women's cricket stuff has been conveyed

8735

through my writing. YouTube has mostly

8737

been stuff where I enjoy this

8739

process of, like I said, learning

8741

and then applying. Similarly

8743

learning and then sharing what you've learned

8745

is also something that

8747

gives you a little bit of a kick or

8749

gives me a little bit of a kick

8751

and I enjoy that process independent

8753

8755

women's cricket or independent of my passion

8757

for cricket in general. I mean

8759

my passion for cricket is not

8761

completely

8763

how to say, indestructible

8765

like there will be phases

8767

and there was a phase just after the IPL

8769

after having done commentary almost every day

8771

where I didn't want to watch cricket for

8773

one week, but there I still might

8775

feel like, you know, I might be able to make a

8777

video or I might be able to do other stuff.

8779

So the passion

8781

for the subject

8783

definitely existed first

8785

and then the outlet for it

8787

has probably defined me as a

8789

creator, but

8791

if you ask me what I will

8793

want to and be passionate about creating

8795

it will always be something related to

8797

growing the game, growing the women's

8799

game. Like even now

8801

my storefront

8803

you could say, doesn't really have a lot

8805

of women's cricket. You know, I might be writing

8807

on women's cricket, yes, but I might be writing on

8809

other cricket also. I might be doing YouTube

8811

videos on cricket in general and where 80%

8813

of my viewers are boys, but

8815

in the background there are projects running where

8817

I'm thinking how can I make an

8819

impact on this game? How can I

8821

help the Indian team win

8823

a World Cup? How can I help

8825

the Indian domestic

8827

players get a better deal?

8831

Those kind of things always occupy

8833

space in my mind and they may not always

8835

find a creative outlet, but

8837

there will be something or the other

8839

running and again I'm very lucky

8841

to be able to

8843

make a living from this kind

8845

of thinking, just thinking about the game and

8847

trying to find solutions for it

8849

which I really appreciate and

8851

remind myself to be grateful for.

8853

But that

8855

thinking process and that

8857

desire to fix

8859

the problems that I see in women's cricket

8861

has not really gone away

8863

and that's probably what is

8865

then driving and expressing

8867

in different ways.

8869

So let's talk about women's cricket

8871

and I almost feel hesitant

8873

talking about women's cricket particularly

8875

because I don't want to slot you as someone

8877

who writes about women's cricket because

8879

like I said, I just love your writing, you're one of my favorite

8881

cricket writers, but women's cricket is simply

8883

one of those subjects which not enough

8885

people have that kind of depth of knowledge

8887

about or sort of talk about.

8889

Most Indians are kind of

8891

saturated with the regular men's cricket that happens

8893

out there, but know nothing about women's

8895

cricket per se. And you've

8897

written this wonderful report

8899

called An Equal Hue along with Karuna Keshav

8901

and the late Siddhant Patnaik.

8903

And let's kind of talk a little bit

8905

about that because I love reading that paper

8907

in the sense that it laid out

8909

in great detail across all these

8911

different categories, not just what

8913

is wrong with women's cricket but what can be

8915

done to improve it and just as a

8917

vision document and as a

8919

taking stock of where things are, I just found

8921

it eye-opening in many ways.

8923

So tell me a little bit about

8925

what it involved, like, you know,

8927

why did you write that? What was the impetus

8929

behind it? Like I know you were one of the

8931

I think three journalists present

8933

during the 2017 World Cup final. I think Karuna

8935

was also one of them. So what

8937

was the impetus which made you decide

8939

that this is something that needs to be

8941

done? Did you feel that there was a

8943

serious audience for it, not audience

8945

in terms of eyeballs but in terms of people

8947

who would act in the board who would actually do

8949

something about it? Tell me a little bit

8951

about what led you to the report and

8953

so on.

8955

So let me pick up on

8957

the fact that the third journalist

8959

in the 2017

8961

World Cup was Siddhant.

8963

So the three of you. Yeah, so, and

8965

that was kind of where it started

8967

because the two of them were working

8969

for Wisden India at the time. I was freelancing

8971

and the three of us

8973

were the only ones who were travelling

8975

to cover the World

8977

Cup in entirety. Then after India

8979

reached the finals, a lot more media coverage

8981

swept in which was great. But

8983

I must really mention here

8985

the influence that Siddhant also

8987

had in this entire project.

8989

That was the first time I actually

8991

spent time with him. I'd met him once in the

8993

Wisden India office but we

8995

were housemates on that tour. So

8997

we had the same schedule so we basically

8999

had planned our accommodation and our travel

9001

etc together. We chatted so

9003

much about women's cricket and of course he

9005

was, I mean, not there just because he was working

9007

with Wisden India even before that.

9009

In all his time he had,

9011

he and Karuna had put up

9013

a huge body of work on women's

9015

cricket. They were one of the few people who were writing

9017

about domestic women's cricket, international

9019

women's cricket before 2017.

9021

Remember 2017 is the moment where

9023

women's cricket became cool again

9025

and I'm always going to have tremendous respect

9027

for the people who were putting in a lot of work behind the scenes

9029

before that. And Siddhant was one of those people

9031

and he has a sister who

9033

you know, he saw

9035

a lot of similarities between her and me.

9037

This sporty kid, always

9039

not afraid to play with the boys, standing

9041

out and there was always this

9043

desire to kind of make the world a better

9045

place for people like her

9047

and therefore this

9049

kinship with the underdogs

9051

whether it's domestic men's

9053

cricketers or

9055

women's international cricketers. And so

9057

the loss of the

9059

2017 World Cup final, even for that final

9061

the three of us were sharing a house together

9063

in London and

9065

we kind of grieved it in that

9067

final in our own ways.

9069

I remember finishing

9071

my filing at some ridiculous

9073

hour at night

9075

and after that

9077

match just collapsing in the kitchen and crying

9079

I mean that was the time where the emotion

9081

finally came out that you know, we were

9083

so close and we lost by

9085

nine runs. And after that

9087

we kept talking, especially

9089

Siddhant and me about what we can do

9091

to help the game.

9093

What we can do to try and make it

9095

better. So I mean for a start

9097

we decided okay let's compile our suggestions

9099

for whatever it's worth and we made

9101

a very rough document

9103

which had some excellent suggestions.

9105

I mean even Siddhant had really put in

9107

you know, he had event management

9109

background so used that kind of

9111

a background to draw this up.

9113

He happened to speak to

9115

Nandan Kamath who you've had on your

9117

pod before who

9119

has founded something called the Sports

9121

Law and Policy Centre which is a body

9123

which is dedicated to kind of publishing

9125

these kind of works

9127

which create a

9129

almost a body of work on that particular sport.

9131

So Nandan really encouraged us

9133

to widen and deepen the scope

9135

of the report and make it you know

9137

a basic groundwork

9139

document where anyone who wants to

9141

have any kind of influence in

9143

women's cricket can read this, get an idea

9145

of where they are, where

9147

the action areas are required.

9149

And so we

9151

set about that. During the course

9153

of making that report

9155

Siddhant's sickness got

9157

worse and eventually

9159

he didn't survive. After that

9161

I asked Arunya to come on board

9163

and the two of us kind of finished that work

9165

and during the course

9167

of the lockdown actually when we both got

9169

a lot more time so a project that was kind of

9171

in the making for three years

9173

put it together.

9175

We based it not just on our own experience but

9177

a survey conducted of

9179

350 state cricketers so

9181

who were really generous with that time

9183

which again like the sense of community

9185

within the women's cricket circuit

9187

where they all

9189

volunteered to fill up this survey

9191

because again there was a lot of goodwill

9193

built up by Arunya and Siddhant also in the

9195

process of writing their book.

9197

So when they knew that they were involved in this

9199

they were a lot of cricketers participated

9201

very actively. And this

9203

kind of then led us to

9205

the EqualHU report which was published

9207

in 2020. It

9209

is the groundwork for

9211

action that needs to be taken

9213

next. It's a document that analyzes where the

9215

gap areas are. It's the document that

9217

really says that you know okay if

9219

anyone whether it's the BCCI

9221

whether it's a broadcaster whether it's some

9223

NGO who wants to do good work or whether it's

9225

a corporate who has CSR funds

9227

they would like to use it to help women's cricket

9229

grow. These are the areas where

9231

you can start. This is the way where you can make an

9233

impact through the recommendations that we've made.

9235

Along the way you know we've also

9237

had this sense of okay now we've done this analysis

9239

now what? And

9241

therefore it's moved into action

9243

and we've formed Karunia

9245

myself. People at the Sports Law Policy

9247

Centre have formed the EqualHU project where

9249

we are trying to fill some of these gaps

9251

ourselves. And one of

9253

couple of the gaps that we identified were

9255

not enough information

9257

about women's cricket you know. If a women's

9259

cricketer is sitting in Katak, Bhuvaneshwar

9261

Orissa or

9263

Dharamshala, do they know

9265

the pathways in their state? So

9267

Karunia really headed a project which

9269

compiled information for each

9271

state of you know what the

9273

existing pathways in that state are

9275

how a woman who's interested in

9277

cricket, a girl who's interested in cricket can find

9279

cricket near her, what the

9281

state association processes are

9283

what their phone numbers are wherever available

9285

whatever information is available has been

9287

put together in a website on the

9289

EqualHU website where

9291

aiming to fill up that information

9293

gap. They also worked

9295

really hard on publishing an audio book

9297

where there's a women's cricketer

9299

as a central figure in it

9301

for 5 to 8 year olds or 5 to

9303

10 year olds. So the next generation

9305

should grow up with women's cricketers

9307

in their consciousness. So that's

9309

some of the projects that the EqualHU project is

9311

working on. Like I said there are projects

9313

in the background that we are working on. We have

9315

plans

9317

and we are reaching out to various brands

9319

to partner with them on these plans

9321

to just support the ecosystem

9323

more and more be it through scholarships

9325

be it through tournaments and that's I think

9327

the big opportunity and

9329

something that I hope really

9331

allows us to make an actual

9333

impact on the ground because there's

9335

only so much you can do is what I've discovered

9337

writing about a sport

9339

but you know can we actually

9341

make an impact on the ground

9343

through our projects. That's the

9345

new focus almost.

9347

You know the hope has been

9349

voiced by many that the 2017

9351

World Cup final with all the viewership

9353

that it got and so on. The World Cup in fact

9355

not just the final with all the viewership that it got

9357

could be something like the 1983 moment

9359

for men's cricket was.

9361

But my question is you know I think in

9363

the life of any sport or any

9365

activity there is this

9367

transition from where early

9369

on all the people who care about it deeply

9371

and are making initiatives are people who are just

9373

passionate about it and are motivated by that

9375

passion and that's what driving them.

9377

And then the next phase that comes

9379

is when it crosses a certain tipping point

9381

and people are instead motivated

9383

by commerce. You know so people

9385

begin to do things for women's cricket because

9387

they feel there is a market for it

9389

and then things really improve then

9391

infrastructure improves then all of

9393

these things you know like you've got

9395

a section where you speak about barriers to

9397

participation which include cultural barriers

9399

physical barriers financial barriers

9401

then those start to disappear.

9403

You've got a section where you talk about domestic

9405

cricket and the grassroots and how

9407

the ecosystem there can be much better

9409

and those kind of

9411

start to vanish. So how close is

9413

that point? Have we reached that point? Have we crossed

9415

that point? Is it still somewhere in the future?

9417

Give me a sense of how

9419

the game is sort of evolving

9421

in that sense because it is true

9423

that women's cricket is much more in

9425

the consciousness of a lot

9427

of viewers. But

9429

is there enough women's cricket

9431

happening? Are they watching it actively?

9433

What's the ecosystem like

9435

beneath the elite game? Give me

9437

a little bit of a sense of that.

9439

So let me

9441

answer the driven by commerce

9443

kind of angle first.

9445

The last IPL T20

9447

women's challenge that happened

9449

where it involved three teams

9451

was held in Dubai

9453

alongside the men's IPL of

9455

2020

9457

was the first tournament to attract sponsors.

9459

It was the first tournament where Jio

9461

came on board as an independent title sponsor.

9463

I mean it was very prudent

9465

and smart of the BCCI to not just

9467

piggyback it along with the men's

9469

tournament and the men's sponsors and identify it

9471

as a separate property and see what

9473

value there is for this property and

9475

Jio came on

9477

board as title sponsor and then all the IPL

9479

supporting sponsors came on board

9481

for this women's T20 challenge as well.

9483

Wonderful opportunity for you to get branding.

9485

Wonderful opportunity for you to get exposure

9487

and what the BCCI

9489

treasurer I believe said after that tournament

9491

is this is now financially sustainable

9493

which I take to understand that

9495

it paid for itself broken

9497

even. So

9499

if that is the bare minimum

9501

of where we are

9503

it's a wonderful starting point to be because you can

9505

just everything north

9507

of this is profit.

9509

So I think commerce wise that

9511

is where the Indian team

9513

is value wise when

9515

right now

9517

it's hard to define a separate value

9519

for the Indian women's cricket team because

9521

how do you define value of a sports property

9523

broadcast rights.

9525

What kind of money is being paid

9527

by broadcasters to showcase this property

9529

which reflects how many advertisers are

9531

willing to put money behind

9533

this kind of a product. It's hard to

9535

gauge right now because the women's

9537

international matches are

9539

bundled in to the men's

9541

broadcast rights along

9543

with you know the under 19 World Cup

9545

or those under 19 teams same with the

9547

shirt sponsorship. The shirt sponsorship

9549

is sold as a bundle

9551

for the men's women's and

9553

under 19. Whereas I think

9555

now in the next cycle which is 2023

9557

onwards there is a

9559

case there is a strong case to

9561

separate this as a

9563

separate property. Let's say women's cricket

9565

is sold at a separate property

9567

it will earn you I mean

9569

by separating women's cricket the overall cost

9571

of the men's rights is not going to come down

9573

but the women's rights

9575

might earn you you know

9577

some amount of money it's not going to be in

9579

the range of what the men's rights are going

9581

to earn you but it will earn you some

9583

amount of money. That will put a number

9585

on the value of women's cricket

9587

and that is something I look forward to

9589

happening. There is also the fact that

9591

if you look at a women's cricket broadcast now

9593

for example on these OTT apps

9595

you can gauge

9597

that by how many of these

9599

how many ads

9601

are off the OTT platform itself

9603

for example if it's on Hotstar

9605

in the breaks how many Hotstar

9607

ads are you seeing because that is time

9609

where they haven't been able to

9611

sell it to an advertiser so they put a Hotstar

9613

ad there. So if you see a lot of

9615

Hotstar ads it means that this property is not really

9617

valuable. What I've seen is

9619

of the recent

9621

tour to Australia there were a lot of ads

9623

for the women's tour to Australia

9625

there were ads by brands, very few ads

9627

by the broadcaster who was Sony

9629

there was also title

9631

sponsors for this series

9633

there was also investment by the

9635

broadcaster in building up

9637

this is for away series Hindi, Tamil

9639

Telugu three

9641

separate languages

9643

for broadcast for the women's series

9645

beyond just the World

9647

Feed English commentary that they carry which

9649

tells me that's where

9651

they stand in terms of commerce

9653

in terms of the underlying structure

9655

so much that could be better

9657

I mean we talk about the strength of

9659

domestic cricket for the men

9661

and the finishing school

9663

that is the IPL and the India

9665

A programs a long

9667

time ago for the men's in men's

9669

cricket we used to compare Australia

9671

as a better domestic system

9673

why because they have only eight teams

9675

whereas we have some 30

9677

35 teams and we are diluting our

9679

talent therefore the

9681

competition is less

9683

fierce therefore the players are not

9685

battle hardened when they come to international cricket

9687

what is changed I mean we still have

9689

30 35 teams but now we have an

9691

India A program now we have an IPL

9693

those are the steps up

9695

so I mean for me it's just common sense

9697

to say that you know apply the same

9699

model here we have 30 35 teams playing

9701

domestic cricket please have

9703

an India A program please have an under 19

9705

program please have a women's IPL and

9707

just see how you know other

9709

countries are scared of India getting it right

9711

because of just the sheer number of

9713

players that we have even despite you know

9715

not really trying a few

9717

moves which have bewildered

9719

me in the last few years have been

9721

the removal of the

9723

interzonal tournament so from

9725

these 30 35 teams you are picking talent

9727

directly putting it in the challenger trophy and

9729

sending it to international level of course

9731

they are going to find that jump slightly

9733

difficult the interzonal

9735

level was what gave them a little bit of a

9737

stepping stone I would love

9739

to see that tournament come back besides the

9741

fact that it just gives more match days

9743

to the players again they play

9745

too few matches spend

9747

nine months of the year training and play

9749

about four or five matches ODI four or five

9751

matches T20 if you don't qualify for the next

9753

stage that's it domestic season over

9755

in senior cricket

9757

and what was your other question about the

9759

underlying structure or

9761

I'll come back to that just to follow

9763

on sort of you know

9765

what you said obviously makes sense that if you

9767

unbundle the rights you get a proper

9769

picture of where

9771

women's cricket really stands and therefore

9773

the risk of underestimating it is

9775

no longer there you know is it then a

9777

problem that BCCI is running

9779

both aspects of the game because obviously I

9781

you know both men's cricket and women's cricket

9783

because I get it that in 2006 with all

9785

the resources they improved a lot

9787

of things they can't take

9789

a lot of the abundant money from the men's game

9791

and you know use it to give the women's

9793

game a leg up but if I just think of

9795

incentives within the BCCI their

9797

huge cash cow is the men's game

9799

all their thinking all their organization

9801

or work it's natural for

9803

it to kind of go there so was

9805

it perhaps better earlier in

9807

just in terms of incentives that

9809

if you have a body where you know

9811

your job is women's cricket it's nothing else

9813

that's all you do that's your incentives that's how

9815

you will be judged it's a separate product

9817

it's a separate property you know so

9819

do you see that as a structural

9821

law does the BCCI

9823

really take women's cricket that seriously

9825

what's your sense?

9827

This is an interesting line of

9829

thinking and it's something that

9831

the cricket historian in the UK

9833

Raff Nicholson has researched

9835

quite a bit she's actually I think doing

something close

to a thesis on

how women's sport

has fared after it

kind of got absorbed by the

9847

ruling existing men's body

9849

and like I've said there are a lot of things that

9851

you know change for the better and there

9853

are some things that change for the worse

9855

in terms of incentives

9857

if you really go that cold

9859

I am trying to put my passion for

9861

women's cricket aside think about

9863

it in terms of a

9865

commercial property

9867

think about it in terms of you know can this

9869

earn me revenue is it worth

9871

putting in x amount

9873

of money and will I get

9875

greater than x back

9877

initially

9879

no initially it's going to be

9881

something that requires a lot of investment of time

9883

and money to grow but the

9885

potential of women's cricket as a property

9887

I think is something that

9889

people are missing and

9891

you have to kind

9893

of think about it in terms of doubling

9895

your base

9897

rather than you know

9899

draining your resources

9901

so if

9903

one thinks about it like that we've seen

9905

how women's sport has

9907

just grown into its own

9909

cash generating revenue generating

9911

property in other sports

9913

we've seen the success of the women's

9915

big bash league we've seen

9917

the popularity of the US

9919

national women's football team

9921

we've seen PV Sindhu as

9923

you know a female sport icon

9925

although team sport I'll probably

9927

should probably take more examples from team sport

9929

but there

9931

is enough to suggest like

9933

we saw with the IPL

9935

where sponsors came on for just

9937

essentially exhibition matches

9939

there is enough to suggest that there is

9941

value in putting in this investment

9943

for four or five years there are

9945

incentives to put in that investment

9947

for four or five years think about it from

9949

an IPL team okay suppose an IPL

9951

team wants to or you know what are the

9953

incentives for an IPL team to

9955

start a women's cricket team one is that

9957

your IPL is only a two month

9959

a year property if you

9961

double that for a small investment

9963

getting involved with the women's IPL will require a

9965

smaller investment than it was for a men's investment

9967

you're doubling your branding

9969

suddenly because if you have a

9971

women's IPL even if it's a one month tournament

9973

separate from the men's IPL window suddenly

9975

from two months of visibility you've got three months of

9977

visibility I think those are the incentives

9979

that exist if you

9981

choose to see them if you choose to look at

9983

them that way

9985

yeah no I completely agree with you

9987

that women's cricket in the long run

9989

is an enticing commercial

9991

prospect as well the worry

9993

just is that from the

9995

BCCI's point of view the whole focus will

9997

be men's cricket IPL there's just so

9999

much money there that they may not bother

10001

about this per se whereas

10003

you know that's kind of the worry

10005

so a couple of final questions

10007

I know I've kept you talking for a long time

10009

a couple of sort of

10011

final questions one of the subjects on

10013

which you've written and spoken passionately is

10015

the need for a women's

10017

IPL elaborate on this a bit because

10019

for me when the men's IPL

10021

happened and I remember there were critics of it

10023

before it started and I wrote a long piece

10025

in Crickin for kind of talking

10027

about the wonders it would do and even I

10029

underestimated them but the

10031

wonders were not just in a commercial sense

10033

I just felt that culturally it would have

10035

a big impact in terms of giving many

10037

more players a livelihood

10039

making the field much more competitive where you don't

10041

have the monopsony of the BCCI as the

10043

only buyer for your services within

10045

this artificial environment you have 8 people

10047

competing to get talented

10049

cricketers to build talented cricketers

10051

instead of 10

10053

people making a living from the game you have

10055

100 people making that

10057

kind of living from the game so

10059

just culturally it kind of changed everything

10061

so tell me about what

10063

your case for a women's IPL

10065

do you see a similar

10067

sort of thing happening if it's just allowed to

10069

exist because like I said it would take a fraction

10071

of the investment of the male IPL

10073

and I'm pretty sure people would

10075

tune in so

10077

so just to finish off

10079

one point on the previous

10081

question is that you know if

10083

the BCCI can almost have

10085

focus completely on men's

10087

cricket it's not outlandish

10089

to for them you know

10091

build up a dedicated women's cricket

10093

section and give them a budget

10095

and say okay we're not going

10097

to pay attention to you at all do whatever you

10099

want which would almost kind of

10101

be an ideal case scenario for many

10103

fans of women's cricket where you know you have

10105

a decision maker with some actual power

10107

using a budget given by the BCCI

10109

which is kind of the best of both worlds

10111

to come to the IPL question

10113

many ways in which I think about

10115

a successful sports

10117

team is their

10119

value in terms of the broadcast market

10121

what makes

10123

a successful sports team valuable what made

10125

the Indian women's cricket team suddenly

10127

a subject of interest and therefore a subject

10129

of commerce

10131

is that performance in a World Cup

10133

again they kind of

10135

backed it up with a performance where

10137

they reached the final of the 2020 World Cup

10139

and

10141

let it must

10143

be acknowledged that even Australia

10145

established that

10147

record of you know 86,174

10149

people in the MCG for

10151

a women's cricket final

10153

a big part of that

10155

well a part

10157

of that for sure is the fact that

10159

India were their opposition if New Zealand

10161

were their opposition would they have

10163

pulled in so many people I'm not sure

10165

so which tells you that

10167

this Indian team if it

10169

does well at a World Cup

10171

becomes a big property becomes

10173

a big financial property for you

10175

now what will help the Indian

10177

team win a World Cup we've seen the

10179

effect with the men's IPL

10181

on how it's impacted the performance

10183

the international performances of the Indian

10185

team that is one of the cases

10187

that is one of the strongest cases for

10189

for creating a women's IPL

10191

because it will help you win a World Cup

10193

so you're creating these other maybe

10195

you know you're creating these other eight players

10197

in the system but it's going to help

10199

the big player get even stronger

10201

one of the biggest cases where the incentives

10203

are just aligned to

10205

really

10207

make this absolutely happen

10209

make it grow as fast as possible and make it

10211

the number one women's league in the world

10213

the other impacts of the IPL

10215

like we've seen

10217

are really the human stories that come

10219

out of the men's IPL where

10221

you have someone like Varun Chakravarthy

10223

almost given up cricket working as an architect

10225

now IPL star Indian

10227

team player within the

10229

Indian team itself you have so many of those stories

10231

you have Shikha Pandey Air Force

10233

officer and Indian cricketer

10235

you have someone like Radha Yadav

10237

whose father was a vegetable

10239

seller on

10241

literally like a footpath in

10243

Mumbai and now you know

10245

through the money that she's earned

10247

for the Indian team they're able to afford a flat in

10249

Mumbai those kind of

10251

stories and the potential for

10253

those stories to affect

10255

actual social change because

10257

you are talking about

10259

you are talking about women in India

10261

you are talking about a group which has its own

10263

challenges own social

10265

restrictions or

10267

own social obstacles and

10269

we've seen that I mean this is

10271

a concept that my brothers and I talk about it's

10273

very often in a lifetime hard

10275

to jump up one's

10277

socioeconomic class the class

10279

that you are almost born into

10281

cricket is a vehicle that allows that cricket

10283

is a vehicle that allows you because

10285

of the popularity in the country and because of the

10287

money associated with the IPL it allows that

10289

and I want to hear more

10291

stories like that I mean that's my case

10293

for a women's IPL I want to hear more

10295

stories where Shafali Verma

10297

was able to pay for her father to

10299

fly out of the country for the first time

10301

he is seeing suddenly the world in a whole new

10303

light that entire

10305

generation is just exposed to

10307

something completely different because of

10309

what she's done that's

10311

the social change that I want to be affected

10313

through a women's IPL

10315

Final question

10317

you know one way of kind

10319

of transforming women's cricket is through

10321

top down action of the kind we've been mentioning

10323

that the BCCI get it sacked together

10325

and even if they have a separate department

10327

I think it's kind of a little

10329

bit of luck that who will they have in charge

10331

will it be a politician or will it be someone from within

10333

the game who really cares about it

10335

which is kind of an uncontrollable

10337

but I totally get it but one of the

10339

ways of driving that change is from the top down

10341

the BCCI does things they put India A

10343

all of that into place all of that happens

10345

but the other is also from

10347

the bottom up where there is a passion for the

10349

game that is coming from the grassroots more people

10351

are playing it and supply

10353

eventually meets that demand

10355

now clearly that wasn't

10357

the case say even when you took up

10359

cricket in the sense that you point out

10361

about how so much of it is kind of

10363

happenstance that you know Shubhangi

10365

Kulkarni Dhanahedulji

10367

all the pieces kind of falling into place

10369

that took you where they were but cultural barriers

10371

physical barriers like you talk

10373

in your in that report about how you

10375

didn't have changing rooms so after a you know

10377

grueling session all the boys

10379

would just change their t-shirt and go home and you'd be

10381

all sweaty and you know you'd put on a jumper

10383

over what you were wearing because you didn't

10385

want people in the local train to

10387

have to tolerate your sweat

10389

but now with the kind of

10391

the changing profile with the fact that

10393

people don't need to physically meet a Shubhangi

10395

Kulkarni when they can watch a Snehal Pradhan

10397

video on YouTube and get inspired by

10399

that or they can even watch

10401

like there's a charming talk show that

10403

Smriti Mandana and I think Jibama Rodriks too

10405

you know and they can watch that and make them

10407

role models so

10409

do you feel that in terms of bottoms

10411

up something happening there

10413

that at least there things are changing

10415

that happenstance of that sort

10417

will no longer be so rare will no longer

10419

be so necessary

10421

and just people's approaches

10423

you know whereas earlier parents who loved

10425

cricket and wanted to live vicariously through their

10427

kids might have sent their son to a

10429

coaching camp today they'll send their daughter to a

10431

coaching camp so what's your sense of the change

10433

actually happening in our

10435

society in that context?

10437

That's a really good question it's probably

10439

one that I haven't really

10441

thought about before but just thinking

10443

about it right now I

10445

think about it about how it exists

10447

in men's cricket because that is

10449

what the situation is in men's

10451

cricket where the demand is just

10453

so much that supply

10455

arises that you know there are tennis ball

10457

tournaments organized at every

10459

little open space you can find

10461

because there are people playing tennis ball cricket

10463

there who say let's make a tournament

so can we get to

that point? Yes

I mean

in theory yes it will take

10473

a long time for bottom up change

10475

to happen it will probably take

10477

an event like how it

10479

did for India if you think about

10481

you know how men's cricket's

10483

current situation has developed it's been

10485

slow cooked for 30 years it's been slow

10487

cooked since 1983

10489

throughout the entire generation of

10491

Sachin Dindulkar worship

10493

now into the generation of you know

10495

a team that can go abroad and win

10497

that's the kind of time

10499

I'm talking about that it will

10501

take you never know you know there might

10503

be an incredible event we

10505

you know we underestimate these

10507

kind of things there might be an incredible event in

10509

women's cricket which just drives

10511

that almost overnight

10513

relatively speaking overnight

10515

and then

10517

you might have like you

10519

said supply suddenly turning up

10521

because there is so much demand I feel

10523

there is definitely a shift in

10525

terms of how

10527

the likes of Smriti Mandhana are

10529

such popular figures nowadays

10531

and the influence that they are having on

10533

the next generation is probably something we

10535

only understand once the generation grows up

10537

so it's definitely

10539

possible there are so

10541

many more ways for people to get

10543

into coaching etc

10545

and start on their

10547

first few steps of the journey but the

10549

next few steps are still held

10551

by these institutions

10553

and therefore

10555

you might have more

10557

the base of the pyramid does get wider

10559

but then to move up the pyramid you do

10561

have to move through a few fixed ladders

10563

and that's where I

10565

I'm a little worried

10567

a little cynical about this because we've already

10569

seen this since the 2017

10571

World Cup cricket academies

10573

everywhere I mean just after the

10575

2017 World Cup so many girls turned

10577

up at cricket academies

10579

but they don't yet have that many

10581

tournaments to really

10583

fill their appetite and that's

10585

I mean thinking back to your

10587

conversation with Nandan and Joy

10589

I think Nandan was also talking about

10591

just creating these tournaments

10593

and how that

10595

really changes the ecosystem

10597

just by virtue of having more

10599

opportunities to play I think that is

10601

where the demand already exists

10603

and the supply needs to

10605

step up yeah I guess it's a bit

10607

of a chicken and egg thing where the demand exists

10609

but it can't express itself in any particular

10611

way because there's no supply if you had tournaments

10613

you would know how many people are

10615

really interested so I guess at

10617

some point it you know it's

10619

up to creative entrepreneurs and

10621

passionate crusaders like yourself

10623

to kind of change that so

10625

you know thanks a lot for giving me

10627

so much time on the show I'm really

10629

looking forward not just to what happens in

10631

women's cricket but also your journey as a

10633

creator which is I think just so inspiring

10635

in terms of the kind of

10637

output you put out and I'm

10639

going to go and watch that video again to

10641

kind of hit myself with it and say

10643

look how much she does in a day you fool what are you

10645

doing so thanks so much Snehal

10647

it's been my pleasure Amit

10649

if you

10651

enjoyed listening to this episode hop on over to the

10653

show notes I've linked Snehal's newsletter

10655

and YouTube channels there plus

10657

there are many other links to enter rabbit holes

10659

through you can follow Snehal on

10661

Twitter at Snehal Pradhan

10663

you can follow me at Amit Verma

10665

A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A you can browse

10667

past episodes of the scene and the unseen

10669

at scene unseen dot I-N

10671

thank you for listening

10673

did you enjoy this

10675

episode of the scene and the unseen

10677

if so would you like to support the

10679

production of the show you can go

10681

over to scene unseen dot I-N

10683

slash support and contribute

10685

any amount you like to keep this

10687

podcast alive and kicking

10689

thank you

Ep 249： Dial C For Snehal Pradhan | The Seen and the Unseen