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This episode of The Scene on the Unseen is brought to you by Intel.
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Two roads diverged in a wood and you, you took the one you're passing through.
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Why do we take the paths we take in our lives?
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For some of us, it's social convention and inertia.
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When I was growing up in the 1980s, good middle class boys were supposed to be engineers and doctors.
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And maybe do that newfangled thing in MBA, certainly try for UPSC.
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Some of us manage to ignore these conventions and find that golden intersection between doing something we love,
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something we are good at and something we can get paid for.
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But whatever choice we make, there's usually some rationale behind it.
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Maybe a steady career, maybe a pot of gold if we get to the end of the rainbow,
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maybe an artistic satisfaction that can't be measured only in banknotes.
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But some people, they go against the tide and make choices that seem destined not to work.
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Your enemies laugh at you, your friends feel sorry for you.
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But you gotta do what you gotta do.
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As a great Kashi Nath Singh wrote in Kashi Ka Asi,
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bhar me jaye duniya, hum bajaye harmoniya.
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Welcome to The Scene and the Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics and behavioural science.
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Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
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Let the world go to hell, I will play my harmonium.
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Welcome to The Scene and the Unseen.
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My guest today is Abinandan Sekri, the founder and CEO of News Laundry.
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Abinandan joined the news industry as a journalist with News Track,
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a video news magazine that circulated by videocassette long before the internet existed.
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His career took many unconventional routes after that.
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He was an assistant director on Meera Nair's film Monsoon Wedding.
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He jumped into making travel shows for television when there was no market for travel shows on television.
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He started an NGO with Arvind Kejriwal and Manish Sisodia, among others,
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at a time when they were all unknown and such activism seemed doomed to failure.
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He wrote comedy for television while the world went to hell around him.
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And eventually he formed News Laundry, a media house with a difference.
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They would ignore advertisers and subsist directly of the goodwill of their readers.
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Today, everyone is talking about this as a new trend in the creator economy.
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Abinandan and his team have been doing this for a decade.
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When I invited him on the show and he agreed, I didn't have to do much digging about what kind of person he is.
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One thing I love about Abinandan is that what you see is what you get.
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His public persona has no filters. I love that about him.
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Before recording this episode, we were chatting about Aakar Patel's delightful tweets.
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And I pointed out that Aakar has become a personification of the phrase, no more fucks to give.
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Aakar is fearless in a way that most of us can only admire from a distance.
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I felt Abinandan had reached that state as well. But he told me, no, he still has some way to go.
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Be that as it may, he's a fearless crusader for a better India.
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And in times when the rest of the media seems to have sold itself out,
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News Laundry continues to speak truth to power.
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Many of us admire this, but we should also put our money where our mouth is.
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If you agree, head on over to newslaundry.com slash subscription and support News Laundry.
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You can even get a 25% discount if you write to Abinandan at an email ID he reveals at the end of the show.
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But I would say, ignore the discount, pay the full price, pay to keep news free.
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Now if that sounds like a commercial, it isn't. The commercial comes now.
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How secure are we? In general, we are not as secure as we think.
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We rely on the state for the rule of law, but across the world, states tend to be predators rather than protectors.
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We do get some security that comes from social trust and conventions, but that can work both ways.
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One place where we are relatively secure though is the internet.
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I often speak of technology with hope as it empowers individuals and it also protects them.
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And it does it so well and in such an unseen way that we often take it for granted.
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There is no better example of this than the sponsor of this episode, Intel.
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Abhinandan, welcome to The Scene in the Unseen.
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Thank you, Amit. Pleasure to be here.
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So it's interesting, you know, I realized while looking up your bare biographical details that we are the same age.
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You're both 47, though I'll get to 48 before you.
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So I'll be a step ahead.
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And although we have sort of had orthogonal careers in the media and journalism and all of that,
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I actually don't know much about you and I'm not even sure how much we really have in common,
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even though we've almost had, you know, parallel lives in Delhi and Bombay.
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I was in Delhi for a very brief while, but...
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I was in Bombay for a very brief while.
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And I've also worked in television and I've also been a journalist and we both do podcasts, all of that.
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So I want to know a little bit more about the non-public persona.
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Like if somebody searches for your name, you're all over.
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And one of the delightful things that I kind of like about everything I've seen of yours and whatever
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is that what you see is what you get, you know, you're just putting yourself out there.
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So one gets a sense that there is a public persona of Abhinandan Sekri and hey, everybody knows that.
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I'm sure a lot of people must have told you that they feel a sense of familiarity with you when they meet you
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because they're so used to watching you.
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But take me before that, like, you know, where did you grow up? What was your childhood like?
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What kind of a boy were you?
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Well, I went through two distinct phases as a boy.
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I had a very idyllic small town childhood, you know, Malguri days of the north kind of.
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Dehradun was a small town, small town where everybody walked.
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The only time your car came out was if you're going to the club, you know, one of those evenings.
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My dad was a Fauji, my mother was a school teacher.
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And Dehradun was a town for retired people and Faujis and teachers and schools.
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And I'm talking like the 70s and 80s.
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So there weren't as many schools as there are now.
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Like, there was like, there were no red lights in Dehradun till like even the late 90s.
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It's just after Uttarakhand was made and became a capital, it became anything.
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So, and when dad was in the army, you know, before he took premature retirement,
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because mum was a teacher in Vellum Girls School, we were allowed to be educated at the Doon School.
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So it was like a quota kind of.
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So, especially when many people who are, who like me have got the benefit of quota.
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I don't realize we are quota kids.
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And when they grow up and they're doing really well, they say, bloody, what is this quota?
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I was like, can I use F words here on your show?
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I was like, fuck you, you're a quota kid.
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You're nothing had it not been for a quota.
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So, you know, I went to Vellum Boys School from Class 1 to 6 and then Doon 7 to 12.
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And in fact, my grandfather used to teach Tamil and English at Doon.
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That's much before I was born.
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So our family has been in Dehradun for a long time.
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My mother is a Tamilian and father is a Punjabi.
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But during the holidays, my dad was in the army.
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So he was posted to, you know, Siliguri, Bhopal, Mathura.
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So you spend a lot of time in contune months, which meant air rifles.
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And now when I think of it, maybe that's how you've turned out so screwed up.
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Like I would never let my nephew go with an air gun to shoot squirrels and chameleons and birds.
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But that's what we did, you know, because contune months are safe.
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The rule was you had to get back home when lights are on.
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So you'd go into the bushes, you'd go into the thicket, you'd catch, you know,
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in little Rasna bottles, we'd catch tadpoles and then watch them grow.
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In Hajmola bottles, catch caterpillars, watch them become pupas and then butterflies.
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And even Dehradun was like that.
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There was no fear, like from the time I was six or seven, I could walk anywhere I wanted.
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My folks weren't worried.
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So yeah, it was an idyllic childhood.
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And school was, you know, although I was a day scholar till I was in class nine
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because I was allowed to be, although both Wellam and Doona are all boarding,
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because my mother was a teacher, I was allowed to go back home in the evenings.
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I was a kind of, I won't say I was shy, but I was a quieter kid till I was maybe 12 or 13.
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After which I became an aggressive boy.
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I was much smaller than all my batchmates.
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I was like, you know, way, way smaller.
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So I guess you compensate for that by being extremely aggressive,
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because even, you know, boarding school, it's like prison rules, you know,
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if you don't push back you, so you to compensate for size.
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If, you know, you do the, like, if you fuck with me,
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I'm going to give you such a tongue lashing and humiliate you in front of everybody.
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So that's how you get a bit aggressive.
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So now when I look back, I, you know, I'd like to not have been that aggressive when I was in my teens.
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But those are the two, but yeah, before that I was very quiet and retiring.
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I have two older sisters.
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So in any case, I was used to being quiet.
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One is six years older, one is three years older.
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And Dehradun was, you know, kite flying, going for those jhankis of Ram Leela, watching the Ravan thing from the club.
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And you were the youngest because all my sister's friends are much older than me.
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So you were the sidekick who ran behind the gang.
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No one really was looking out for you.
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So yeah, it was a good, I'd say it was a very peaceful, happy childhood.
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Yeah, I've seen pictures on your Instagram of your school years, I think where, you know,
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there's one picture of a group of you and someone makes a comment about which one is you,
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but I could make out you're kind of in the center, you're the same kind of face.
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And there's another one where there are, you know, one, two, three, it's like a vertical picture,
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people leaning on each other and you're the kid at the bottom.
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And, you know, you mentioned sort of like one of the things that I remember not just having in school,
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but kind of for much longer, and I think people have it throughout their lives,
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is sort of the anxiety of fitting in, you know, where you're still kind of discovering who you are in a sense,
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as if that process is ever complete.
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But that's sort of a dominant anxiety for many people.
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At one level, the anxiety of fitting in, at another level, the anxiety of what people will think of you,
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which drives sometimes the things that you do, the music you listen to and the music you pretend to listen to,
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the books you carry around and the books you really enjoy reading, and so on and so forth.
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And a lot of these things about myself, I realized only later through looking back, through self-reflection and all of that.
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And it seems you've also kind of done a little bit of that because you just use the phrase now when I look back, you know.
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So tell me a little bit about, you know, when you look back at the young Abhinandan, like what were those anxieties?
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When did you lose those anxieties? Where does that process come if it is complete?
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I think it's complete for you and I think I kind of took a long time to get there.
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But where does it happen where you get comfortable in your own skin?
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I mean, I would say there wasn't a time, like it wasn't an event, it's more a process, like the pupa turning into a butterfly kind of thing.
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But yeah, I'd say maybe late 20s, early 30s onwards, I was, you know, pretty sure of my confidence levels were solid.
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It wasn't a put on confidence which you have in your 20s, like you said, what is expected of you is like...
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And I was always confident and I'll get into the reason why that is, you know, when we get into this a little bit.
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But the real confidence, I guess, only in your 30s is when it kind of starts to develop.
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Like stuff like I love Punjabi music, right?
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So if I was going to pick up a girl or, you know, I would switch to English music, you know, right up to your late 20s or 30s.
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Now I don't give a shit. I was like, fuck, I listen to Geeta Zehldar.
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Like you want to sit, sit, you don't want to sit, don't sit.
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So those kind of things, you know, take a little longer.
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But I mean, yeah, that's when it happened and I think Delhi has a lot to do with it.
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You know, because when I was young, when you talk about the anxieties, one is, of course, your middle class.
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And, you know, the way middle class is used, let's face it, I was privileged even though I was not a Nikhil Nandar or Jyotiraj Das India,
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but I was still more privileged than 90% of the country.
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But because our society has been so, you know, segmented that you're the bottom of the top.
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So stuff like not being able to afford the shoes that others could, you know, not being able to afford a Nike, wear power.
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It, you know, it kind of bites you a little self-conscious about it.
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But luckily it was never a big thing for me because my folks, I mean, that was a new thing of what brand I was wearing only when I,
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you know, in my teens, before that, because of the kind of people my parents are,
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I was never even aware that there was anything other than what we have.
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One is because there was no cable TV, so you didn't know.
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Be that wasn't a priority in our house, so you didn't know anyway.
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And there was never any shame, like my mother comes from a family of, you know, teachers and academics,
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like my aunts have been teachers, my mother's a teacher, my grandfather's a teacher.
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And, you know, there were the typical Tamilians who really chatted a lot of books.
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We had a lot of books at home, like we had more books than anything else basically.
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You may have a broken sofa, but your books have, you know, kept well.
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So there was never really that need, but I did go through a phase, I'd say in my teens to college,
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where you weren't, you were aware that you don't have as much as the other kids who you grew up with.
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But honestly, it did not impact me as much as it impacted others around that I saw, you know,
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because there were a lot of us who were service kids and a lot of us who were, you know, very wealthy.
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So it did impact me a little bit, but not enough for it to take a knock on my confidence.
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I would be self-conscious about it and sometimes a little embarrassed, but not enough to not speak out.
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So, yeah, and I think for that, you know, my mum and my sisters are, and I do think I'm not married
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and I don't have kids, but it's funny coming from me.
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I think the unit of family, I mean, for all my progressive and, you know, Bohemian choices and angles in life,
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from my experience, I'll say, if you have a solid family, you can be so fucking confident that no one can shake that.
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Because no matter what I did, for my mother, I was always a star, you know, I'm always the star.
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Even now she says, you know, internet pe kuch chalata hoga type, you know, she's, but,
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and I have two older sisters, they're both really smart, bright, very independent.
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So, confidence was something that I saw and learnt.
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So, yeah, so I was conscious that I'm not as well off as many of the kids I'm growing up with,
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but, and sometimes I was embarrassed because, like, your car doesn't have an AC, your car may break down.
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I have a second-hand Fiat, which was like 40,000 rupees.
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And at that time, you know, Maruti 800s had just come out, so people had Maruti 800s,
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some of which had Mercedes, and you're going for a, you know, a friend's party who lives in this big bungalow in South Delhi somewhere.
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And, you know, his, probably one wheel of his car is worth your car.
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So, that, you know, you, but otherwise, you know, me and another friend of mine were both service background.
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So, we'd always say, you know, our dads couldn't give us a BMW, but they'd give us a car.
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You know, that's, even if it didn't work half the time, which is more than what a lot of others get.
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But, yeah, so, I mean, that kind of, it vanished early enough for me for it to,
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and even today, money is not a motivation in my life.
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I want a, you know, fairly comfortable life, and I want choices.
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But I really, I mean, you see how I dress, you know, my entire wardrobe must be worth 20,000 rupees.
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I don't give a fuck about that shit. That's never been an issue.
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But it was when I was young. I tell, you know, many of my younger peers this, that when I wanted to buy expensive stuff, I couldn't afford it.
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So, basically, God outwits you. He gives you what you want, but not when you want it.
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And when he gives it to you, you don't want it.
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So, I was very, you know, keen to buy, you know, shoes, cats that were expensive, you know, back then Air Jordans and shit.
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I couldn't afford them. Now, I may not be able to buy a rose, but I can buy any shoe I want.
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But I don't have anything other than jutees and, you know, my one pair of cats.
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I used to love the Harley-Davidson boots because I'd seen friends of mine wear it.
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A pair of Harley-Davidson boots at that time was like 8,000, 7,000. I'm talking like 90s, man.
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That was like when I was a newstruck, my salary was three and a half thousand bucks.
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So, when you can afford it, you just want kolhapuri chappals and kurta pajamas. So, yeah.
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I mean, maybe the mindset of not wanting things is also a kind of richness.
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You mentioned the books that surrounded you in your house and, you know, how it didn't matter if the sofa was broken, the books were all around.
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My childhood was similar to that, extremely privileged. My dad was a civil servant, surrounded by books all the time.
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And that's what I remember. So, my dad passed away earlier this year and we just sold his house.
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And I have to go there next month to clear out some of the stuff.
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This is in Chandigarh. And the thing that I think about most is books because all those books,
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and I've got to find someone to give it away to, some library or charity or whatever.
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And all those books, in a sense, are my nursery. They are kind of what shaped me.
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Because as a kid, I just sort of grew up just reading all the time and in different ways,
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sort of forming my imaginative world there, you know, and kind of starting from there.
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What was it like for you? Because, you know, you mentioned your mother was also an academic.
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Her whole side of the family was academics. They were all obviously into reading.
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You know, reading must have been both something sacred and at the same time something, a source of great pleasure for all of you.
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So, tell me a little bit about what kind of stuff you read. And of course, we had, you know, limited variety of books in general available.
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So, kids would grow up reading the same thing. Even the serious reading they would progress to would be, you know,
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I'm sure there are lots of commonalities. But give me a sense of how that was shaping you.
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So, a lot of what you read at that time was because you heard your mother say, oh, this is very good.
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So, you read it and you didn't really have a view of what's good or bad. You just read.
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So, my mother had this big collection, she still does, of PG Woodhouse and Jeeves and all that.
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So, you went through those before you really could understand them.
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Like, now when I think back, I mean, I don't think, you know, 13, 14-year-olds should be reading those,
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especially someone who has no insight or idea of British humour or British life or British society.
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There's a lot of that subtext and that's the world it's in.
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But you read it because you heard your mother say, oh, how fine, haha, in it.
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So, you read it. The other thing that my folks had was they had all the reader's digests,
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because they used to subscribe from like 72 onwards. They were all...
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So, I got operated for appendicitis when I was in class 8.
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So, I had to, you know, be in bed for about 10, 12 days.
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And during that time, I chatted, like, I think from 72, 73 onwards, all the reader's digests.
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So, you know, whether it's that drama in real life...
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Humour in uniform, college humour, laughter, the best medicine.
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And of course, it was drama in real life. And there used to be this, you know, the long walk home type.
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Later, I got to know there was a certain Christian angle to the reader.
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So, all these stories had a certain message about there being a God and you should be good.
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And it was subliminal. Of course, it didn't convert into Christianity in case everyone wants to go and, you know, attack the reader.
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But later, I understood that there was a certain politics behind that as well.
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But I chatted all that. Then, you try to pick up stuff that is way beyond your league, like War and Peace
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and Thorn Birds, which used to be this thick book. I remember...
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Colin McElroy, I remember that, yeah.
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So, you know, you pick those up, you abandon those halfway, but you learn something, you learn English words.
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Then, there was a lot of Thomas Hardy, which I would still recommend that, you know...
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I mean, I wouldn't recommend it to someone your in my age, because there's a certain...
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You know, I don't mean Tess and Jude the Obscure, which are very depressing, but, you know,
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Return of the Native or Far From the Madding Crowd. There's a certain Yash Chopra-esque-ness to his books.
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There's the hero and there's the Evelyn Bathsheba. She's vain and then, you know, she falls in love with someone
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and then, you know, the other guy comes and, you know, saves her and then there's some tragedy.
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So, I mean, I think Thomas Hardy was, you know, the thinking man, Yash Chopra.
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So, you know, those kind of books were there. So, those you appreciated at a younger age
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and I still would recommend them to people who are young, because I think there's a lot...
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I mean, there's something, there's a feel-good factor, you learn something, he writes well, it's a story well told.
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Then, of course, you had the, you know, she had all those classics, Leo Tolstoy and Dickens, Shakespeare.
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In fact, we still have some of, you know, those ones which have that orange with the gold emboss,
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you know, the books I'm talking about. So, I still have those like, you don't have the heart to throw them.
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Although when my mom sold a house in Dehradun and, you know, moved to Delhi because here there was a flat,
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the books couldn't fit here. So, we gave a lot of them and that was pretty heartbreaking.
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I would have loved to get them all because you can't accommodate those books in an apartment
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which you could in a bungalow in Dehradun. So, yeah, that was the kind of stuff.
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And my sister, you know, I've even read Mills and Boons, yeah, because my sister went through the Mills and Boons phase.
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So, it was lying there, you read it, of course, they'd laugh at you but you read it.
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But, you know, like when you grow up with two sisters much older than you, you get bullied a lot.
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Like, A, you get bashed really badly because I don't know whether it's gendered to say this now
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but they're girls, they can beat you, they will not get into trouble.
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I mean, if you're an older brother and you hit your younger sister, I'm sure the parents will like whack you.
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But, you know, as my older sisters and I was much tinier, so…
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They're going to listen to this and they're going to whack you again.
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Yeah, yeah, and then stuff do, you know, cruel things like paint your nails
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and then you don't know how to get it off because, you know, you're like six, seven,
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you try to wash it off and it doesn't come off and then you have to go to school the next day
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and I'm like, fuck, man.
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What are you doing? That happened to you.
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So, yeah, yeah, that happened to me and I was so angry.
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I cried and I cried and so…
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And, you know, class one, two in an all-boys school, you know…
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So, what happened in school?
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Oh, they say, what the fuck you wearing?
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Arey, ladki hai, tu ladki hai type shit.
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So, then of course, you know, my mom took it off when I went back, you know.
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So, shit like that happens.
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You pick up their books, you learn, you…
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But one thing about growing up with two older sisters is you have a richer
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and a better sense of what is appropriate and what is not.
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That's the upside of having a bruised face and nails on your…
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Yeah, I'd say that was…
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And there was a lot of kite-flying, I remember, in Dehradun.
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I used to fly kites. It was fun.
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What did you want to be at this point in time?
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What did you want to be when you grow up in…
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You know, did you, for example, ever have any inkling of the career you would go on to have?
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Did you want to write because you read so much?
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Or were you just going with the flow and not really thinking too hard?
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I wasn't really thinking and also, Amit, you know, you're the same age as I am.
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There were not options that were there.
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Like, okay, what do you want to be?
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Whatever job you get, take it, son.
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You don't have the ability to think.
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So, I mean, I was in that zone.
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I mean, there was a time when, you know, in class 11, you read Fountain and you want to be an architect,
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which is like a dumb thing to do.
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But I guess I went through that phase and I actually did.
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I'm not just saying it as a cliché.
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I mean, now when someone tells me that Ayn Rand is their favourite, I'm like,
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Maybe if you were a teenager.
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So, but I honestly had no idea.
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I stumbled into journalism and I'll tell you how.
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I had no idea what I wanted to be.
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But one thing I remember very early in life, at the back of my head,
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was that I want to do something on my own.
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I don't want to be, you know, reporting to a boss.
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I had articulated a few times, but then I shut up because
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I don't have the ability to speak.
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So, I would just keep...
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But I remember that was a key.
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That was the only thing that I knew.
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Why did you feel like that?
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I mean, can you put a finger on it or...?
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I mean, I think my college years were completely angkush free.
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There was no one watching over me.
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My sisters were either in Bombay or abroad.
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And I was pretty much...
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My parents weren't really with me here at the time.
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And I was a bit adrift in college.
#
No one was there to ask me, have you gone to class?
#
Have you not gone to class?
#
So, I was doing what the fuck I wanted to do.
#
My second year, I remember, this thing was zero.
#
And those days you could get the admit card by one old monk.
#
Bottle was enough to get your admit card even if you didn't have the attendance.
#
So, I mean, I think at that phase, I was at my rebellious best, worst.
#
I don't know what the...
#
It was in a good or bad way.
#
And at that time, I think that those years formed my personality to a great extent.
#
I think I had become a kind of person who I knew would not like survive in a job for very long.
#
I would need to do something on my own.
#
I mean, that's all I can answer.
#
I guess because of the rebelliousness.
#
And yeah, you just felt that I have some, you know, I want to do something that is not this, this or that.
#
It will be something else.
#
But that something else was vague at the time.
#
It was vague. I didn't know.
#
I mean, when I was in college, in fact, I wrote a few articles for a magazine called Parenting Here.
#
It used to be a magazine for parenting.
#
What did you write for them?
#
So, you know, so, I mean, I had...
#
While I was in college, I had a huge...
#
I used to read a lot because you have a lot of time.
#
I had a lot of friends because of my sisters who were really smart, intelligent, cerebral people.
#
And there I wasn't a talker, I was a listener.
#
Because in any case, when you have sisters who are six years older than you, you are not expected to talk.
#
And I knew what to read, what to pick.
#
And in college, I was the talker.
#
And there the people who I was hanging out with weren't...
#
I mean, they would not be even allowed into the circle that my sister hung with, you know, whether it was a mandi house, theater, that kind of...
#
I mean, these are the people who go into fights in college, who the police would drag.
#
And I mean, D.U. today is a very tame version of Delhi University of the 90s.
#
I mean, I've seen such horrible fights which used to happen between Hindu college and Khalsa.
#
And, you know, the Kirodi Mal guys would come and bash up someone in the Hindu hostel.
#
And then 50 guys would march out and bash up 10 other people.
#
So, you know, I had friends in the hostel there.
#
Fuck a book, they wouldn't even fucking read a magazine.
#
So, that was where I had a bunch of friends like that in college.
#
And I appreciated them, I liked them.
#
It taught you survival.
#
I mean, one thing I'll say is Delhi University...
#
I don't know what it's like today because I believe now you have to get an ID card to get in.
#
But if you've seen Rangde Basanti, what I liked about Rangde Basanti was a very accurate reflection of D.U.
#
Like, you know, that DJ guy, Aamir Khan.
#
Like, when we were in college, you were like 18, 19, 17 year old.
#
There used to be 35 year old guys who had been hanging out in college for the last 10, 12 years.
#
In fact, they used to...
#
You know, some of them in the jubilee hall, they had their wives and all.
#
So, they were 35 year old.
#
And you know, DJ when he says, you know, when he says that you're bloody in your mid-30s,
#
what are you still doing hanging out in college with us?
#
He says, yahan DJ ki koi aukaat hai.
#
So, I've known many guys like that.
#
Which is that Rakesh Mehra and he's a D.U. product.
#
You know, I knew many guys and it's so sad when you look back at them now.
#
I mean, I've bumped into someone from my D.U. days and they don't come from backgrounds like you and I.
#
You know, like I said, we may not have been rich, but we are privileged.
#
Just the privilege of confidence is a big thing.
#
I mean, you have already...
#
2000 books at home is more than what people have all their lives.
#
So, I mean, you're talking about people who are from...
#
I mean, I don't want to get into locality names, but a basti type locality in North Delhi.
#
Forget a broken down fiat, there is no chance of a car.
#
And I don't want to take too many names to embarrass those here, but there is a very prominent industrial house in Delhi.
#
I've seen that boy get walloped in the middle of Hindu college by this one guy.
#
Who would probably be socially at that guy's driver's level.
#
And then him come the next day with his cousin and say, Amit Bhai, maaf karto.
#
What can we do for you?
#
Now, Amit Bhai must have been like 10 years older than us, maybe 14.
#
But he would never leave college because outside college, he was the son of a driver.
#
There, a guy who drove a Mercedes would come and touch his feet.
#
So, he never would leave college.
#
So, D.U. really makes you a survivor.
#
That's why D.U. is a very aggressive place.
#
But I think it teaches you a lot. It teaches you survival.
#
It taught me survival. It taught me how to get on with anybody.
#
It taught me to get on with the Chandrawal goons.
#
It taught me to kind of hold my own, not get...
#
You know, don't get into combat, but don't back off either because then they'll fucking eat you up.
#
Make it known that I'm not going to attack you, but you may wallop me,
#
but I will create a scene in the canteen that may compromise your...
#
So, you know, it teaches you these survival in the forest kind of thing.
#
So, I think that shaped a lot of me, you know, when I was a teen and growing up.
#
And because in Delhi and also you come from Dehradun, right?
#
I was in Dehradun from the time I was born to the time I was 12.
#
You come to Delhi where suddenly it matters, you know, who you are.
#
One of the reasons it didn't matter because in Dehradun, it didn't fucking matter.
#
Even if you had a lot of money, you could do nothing with it.
#
You still would walk and, you know, catch Gilharis and tadpoles.
#
You'd still go to the same Doon club and watch Ravan burning on the Sehra, the biggest time of it.
#
On New Year's, it would still be in Doon club with the dance club would shake
#
and all the kids would run around and do Kalabhaji type things, you know.
#
But suddenly here, there was wealth.
#
It was 92, you know, reforms had just kicked in.
#
From everybody having ambassadors and fiats on no car, now there were Maruti 800s coming.
#
There were other... 118 NE was one of the premier cars at the time.
#
So I think a combination of all these changes kind of made me feel,
#
ki boss kuchh apna hi karna hai, I don't want to be reporting to anybody.
#
And you mentioned earlier that in school, to kind of survive there, to do your thing,
#
your strategy was to be aggressive and you kind of regret that later.
#
And here you said that in college, the strategy, I mean, it was a fine dance, obviously,
#
but you learnt how to get along with people.
#
Like what was that aggression like in school, for example?
#
I had a good vocabulary. I could construct a sentence quickly.
#
My mind was, you know, quick.
#
I was a funny guy back then.
#
I wrote satire and humour for a long time.
#
I'm still considered a funny guy by many people.
#
Although I think a lot of my jokes are uncle jokes.
#
The youngsters in office tell me that your jokes are very uncle jokes.
#
That's very rude, yeah.
#
But like if someone would...
#
I'd feel this guy at the back of his mind, he may threaten me.
#
A, I had a lot of friends.
#
I mean, we had a bunch of... we were a pack, you know.
#
So that was one kind of insulation from anyone trying to bully me.
#
The second was I was extremely cutting and nasty when I would like rip through someone.
#
And I would make sure I do it during toy time when everyone's sitting and studying.
#
So, you know, I'd say, you know, you just be nasty.
#
And when you're like 13, 14 and you're humiliated like that in front of people, you start crying.
#
And when someone starts crying, you say, oh, look, he's crying, wuss, fucking wuss, you big ass oaf.
#
Why the fuck are you crying?
#
You know, you do shit like that.
#
But then you know that this guy is not going to pick on you next.
#
He'll pick on someone else.
#
Because he may wallop you, but you've humiliated him in the middle of.
#
So when that... so, you know, those are the kind of survival devices you use.
#
You don't dissect them when you're young.
#
You only dissect them now.
#
You figure why the fuck was I such a dick, man?
#
Why was I so mean to that guy?
#
But it was a sense of let's make an example of him so the next guy does not pick on me.
#
And you meet some of those guys now.
#
Like, have you ever met someone who you made cry or vice versa?
#
You know, and is it that the shared understanding that what happened in Vegas, stays in Vegas sort of?
#
You know, we had our 25th anniversary school reunion in 2018, I think it was.
#
Yeah, 2018 or no, 2017 or 18.
#
So, actually, one of the guys I met after a long time, he's a lawyer.
#
And I met him when I was at Newstrike and CP.
#
Now, this is what I mean.
#
Sometimes you don't even do it knowing who you're doing it to.
#
So, I said, hey, what's up?
#
He says, you know, I'm studying law because that time...
#
I had started working when I was in my third year of college.
#
So, I was like, you know, let's grab lunch and CP.
#
And we're eating and I had nothing...
#
I mean, I wasn't a friend of these guys back in school.
#
But, you know, but after school because, you know, at noon, you're just like 70 guys a batch.
#
So, you know, everybody pretty...
#
And you've spent six years with them.
#
Because no one can join like an eighth night.
#
You have to join from the seventh onwards.
#
So, you know each other pretty well.
#
So, he said that damn, it's good to sit and have lunch with you because I couldn't stand you in school.
#
I said, but why like I never did anything or said anything to you in school?
#
And he explained to me that he says, no, you didn't.
#
But you did this to so-and-so in front of me.
#
And I was like, okay, point.
#
But I said, I didn't say anything to you.
#
He says, no, but that was enough for me not to like you.
#
So, you figure stuff out after that.
#
But like I said, I wasn't like...
#
I mean, I wouldn't say I pick on anyone.
#
Tomorrow, I would play basketball, football with the same guy.
#
Even now, I don't hold grudges.
#
You know, I could have a spat with someone and tomorrow I really don't care.
#
I mean, I'm happy to start again.
#
But you realize that some people do keep that in mind for a while.
#
But it's not so much that there's any animosity with anybody.
#
In fact, one of the guys I didn't really like when I was in school,
#
I used to find him really a nasty piece of work.
#
And we had one of those, you know, little gang battles in school.
#
And that time it was a new fashion.
#
It wasn't as common as it is now.
#
It had just come in and it was a dengue hemorrhagical...
#
I don't know how to pronounce it.
#
So I hemorrhaged from my nose and I wouldn't stop bleeding.
#
So for two days and my platelet count had gone down to like some 22,000, 18,000.
#
It was going that low and you don't plot.
#
So I needed four units of platelets every day.
#
And those days, all these fancy hospitals weren't there.
#
So there were two places where you got platelet separator.
#
One was the Red Cross and one was some fancy place.
#
And we could only afford the Red Cross because it was free.
#
But you had to go with the person who's going to give you blood.
#
They'd separate platelets, they'd give you platelets.
#
So I needed four every day for four days.
#
And my sister would go there and, you know, she'd call up my friends.
#
And that's when I realized, you know, family and friends are worth more than...
#
It's a cliche and I'm sure people say it and maybe don't mean it.
#
I fucking absolutely swear by that, you know.
#
The source of confidence that...
#
The confidence comes from family and friends.
#
You can't get from money.
#
You can't get from anything else.
#
And this guy came. He was one of the guys.
#
So every day my sister would come and say, I said, who all gave today?
#
I was like, what the fuck?
#
And he came with four people and he was doing really well.
#
He was one of the most successful guys of our batch.
#
And she said, he came with four guys from his office.
#
He made them come with him.
#
And she said, it was so sad because...
#
And that's when she told me, you should really thank God for your friends.
#
Because when I was there, there were a lot of people who needed platelets at the time.
#
There were people who needed four units, but they could only get one.
#
And she says, for you, there'd be like 10 guys there.
#
And I'd say, we only need four.
#
You know, six of you go back, come tomorrow.
#
So a lot of the other people would say, can two of yours please give to us?
#
Because we don't have four people here.
#
So I remember the three people who gave me blood at the time.
#
I called him. I said, dude, why do you come?
#
You know, because even though you are not friends, there's enough...
#
There's enough informality to say, why the fuck do you come?
#
You can say that without it being mean or malicious.
#
Because you've grown up together.
#
When it was that you saw your first porn,
#
when it was that you discovered...
#
You know everything about everyone because in a boarding school, that's how it is.
#
He's like, no, dude, you fucking...
#
You know, one of our batchmates said that you had...
#
And I was like, fuck that.
#
I mean, for that, of course I'm going to come.
#
So you realize that, you know, these little things, you should just...
#
You know, it's not worth carrying them.
#
So would you look back at that?
#
And, you know, even I sort of look back on my past and the person I was.
#
And I sometimes wonder how someone who knew me in my 20s can be friends with me today.
#
And that is also one reason that I don't like to be quick to judge other people.
#
Today we live in an age where everybody is so judgemental.
#
Especially, and I think social media has made that worse.
#
Where it's almost as if by picking on some random thing somebody says,
#
by standing in judgment over them, in a sense, you're showing how virtuous you are.
#
So we are no longer willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.
#
Maybe so-and-so meant something else.
#
Maybe it was a weak moment.
#
Maybe they did this then, but they're a different person now, you know?
#
And I just think that we contain multitudes.
#
And we are all essentially the same, you know?
#
At the end of the day, it's an accident of, you know, nature and nurture
#
and whatever happens to you and all of that,
#
that kind of makes us be different people and do different things.
#
Like, what do you think about that aspect of things?
#
Because you are also very active on social media, perhaps even more than me.
#
And this is something that I kind of find disturbing
#
because especially on Twitter, Shitter, what you kind of get
#
is that everyone is kind of signaling
#
and that requires this extreme kind of aggression, always shitting on people.
#
Not even, you know, like one of the sort of mottoes of any group I'm part of is
#
Right? You begin. That is a default. You assume goodwill.
#
If somebody does something wrong, it's OK to assume that it's a mistake.
#
What is sort of your sense of that?
#
Because I find young people rushing to judgment, rushing to hardened positions.
#
And those hardened positions, in fact, are safe forever on social media.
#
Like, if some of the stuff I wrote or thought when I was 20,
#
or you, for that matter,
#
there would be screenshots of that today.
#
If those moments were stored in posterity,
#
like I'd be canceled a million times over.
#
And I just feel that somehow in this performative age, in this angry age,
#
that space to grow for young people is in there.
#
What are your sort of thoughts on that?
#
Yeah, you know, this is something that I think about a lot.
#
And I don't think by default actively think about what is it that drives this on social media.
#
Even my behavior on social media has evolved.
#
I got onto Twitter because during the Jan Lokpal movement, it was a new thing.
#
And because we needed more traction,
#
you know, we were using this...
#
And then, you know, Sibyl and Jadambaram, they blocked it that you couldn't do.
#
So, that's how I got on Twitter.
#
And in fact, that time, you know, Arvind also got on Twitter at that time.
#
And everybody used to...
#
This is something that can be used.
#
And now, then the Jan Lokpal movement turned into a, you know...
#
So, at that time, there was a lot of this about Lokpal debates.
#
And it was all about that.
#
Because I wasn't really a social media friendly kind of guy.
#
It's not something that comes naturally to me.
#
Then when you're on it, there's that slight headiness that...
#
Oh, dude, I've got so many followers.
#
Because I'm your fucking bloody primetime talking shit every night.
#
Of course, you get followers.
#
You know, like, I still see people our age who get a kick out of that.
#
And I feel really bad for them.
#
I mean, I went through that because A, I was new on Twitter.
#
You suddenly had a lot of followers.
#
People, like, were saying nice things to you because, you know,
#
that time it was fashionable to, you know, support the Jan Lokpal movement.
#
And we can get into that later because I know you can't stand Arvind.
#
And, you know, we should talk about that.
#
So, that was one phase.
#
Then, you know, kind of news laundry started around the same time, 2012.
#
And then I would, you know, if someone said something,
#
I would really, like, rip into them on Twitter.
#
And you'll see, I've gone through a lot of scraps with people.
#
And it was this, there was no filter.
#
You know, you just, that Times Magazine has done a cover story on the online disinhibition syndrome.
#
So, I was victim of the online disinhibition syndrome.
#
And then after that, I don't now respond to trolls once in a while.
#
If I'm sitting well at night, you know, I may respond to one or two.
#
But otherwise, I don't even, so I must have muted thousands of people.
#
Because, you know, they'll say something.
#
Back in 2012, I would have responded to each one.
#
I'll respond to one and it'll be a strategic response.
#
I'll be responding for a reason.
#
That may not be apparent, but there is a reason I'm responding to this particular one.
#
I always respond to compliments, thank you.
#
Subscribe, pay to keep news free.
#
I keep hammering that in.
#
I always thank those people.
#
Now, taking a position.
#
Now, because of this, now, we grew up in an internet-free age.
#
I mean, even with News Track, there was no internet.
#
Internet had just come in as emails.
#
So, we knew it existed, but no one fucking used it.
#
That sound reminds me, you know, you would have half a Samantha Fox picture download,
#
while the other half is coming.
#
Now, it's in the background.
#
Now, the thing is that, I mean, to give you an example,
#
my position on the death penalty has taken maybe 10 years to evolve.
#
I mean, I firmed up my position on the death penalty, I think, in my early 40s,
#
or maybe when I was 40.
#
But right from my late 20s to my, you know, late 30s,
#
it was evolving based on what I read, whatever.
#
But Twitter, what people end up doing, and they don't have to,
#
they take a very firm position, which is not thought through.
#
And because you have taken that position,
#
it's that cognitive dissonance podcast,
#
that because you've said, now I have to fucking defend it no matter what.
#
And you paint yourself into a corner that leads to anxiety.
#
Now, again, some of the stuff I'm going to say on your podcast,
#
I mean, I get a lot of, I won't say hate,
#
because they're very affectionately written letters,
#
because a lot of news laundry subscribers say that,
#
dude, your views on gender and on wokeness are really problematic.
#
And some of them have convinced me, some haven't.
#
I must say they try to reason me very politely, and that's very sweet of them.
#
So, I do have some views that some of your woke audience may not find.
#
Now, I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm sure it is.
#
But I, like, everyone, okay, not everyone.
#
Too many people I know who are young have anxiety.
#
I can't do this, I have anxiety.
#
You know, we can't do this on that day, I have to see my therapist, I have anxiety.
#
One is, you should have anxiety.
#
You can't go through life with a sense of Buddha-like equilibrium.
#
You will have very anxious moments when you, well, wait till you fucking get dumped.
#
Then you'll know when you have that feeling in your stomach, you know.
#
The second is, I think it's because of social media.
#
You know, I have to check myself.
#
Like, I don't have the Twitter app on my phone.
#
But sometimes, if something happens, there's a news cycle where news laundry is involved.
#
I have to tell myself, dude, stop fucking looking at your phone.
#
You know, you keep looking, you keep looking.
#
You keep looking, you keep, now I say something, now I put something, now I do something, now I respond to something.
#
And I realize that causes anxiety.
#
So, it is not the kids' fault.
#
They have grown in an age where there is this one ingredient
#
that is a standalone anxiety machine that they are growing up with.
#
Now, that is something that a lot of kids these days face.
#
And by kids, I'm talking 20s even.
#
And a lot of them take very committed positions
#
because of this wanting to, you know, wanting to be a part of the work police.
#
Like, okay, maybe my view on gender or...
#
Yeah, guys, you got to understand.
#
We grew up at a time when the term faggot was considered okay.
#
I mean, think about that.
#
It has taken some undoing.
#
I mean, we grew up at a time where in our textbook,
#
there was a... and this is an ICSC textbook where I know it's against the law to use the Jatav community.
#
There's a slang associated with the Jatav community, which Mayawati belongs to.
#
That slang that is associated with the Jatav community was a part of that short story in our textbook.
#
And that's what we're talking about.
#
So, of course, a lot of my views have evolved like on gender.
#
Like, I didn't get this whole gender fluidity.
#
Like, I mean, even now, I...
#
You know, a guy wearing nail varnish, you know, I guess it may be childhood trauma
#
Self-loathing coming out.
#
Self-loathing coming out.
#
Or, you know, I mean, I...
#
My immediate response, I do stiffen up a little bit,
#
but I understand that's a fucked up primitive response.
#
But because you're wrong on some things, you aren't wrong on everything.
#
And the wokeness is like, fuck, we are...
#
Everything is a theorem. It's not.
#
Only mathematical theorems are mathematical theorems.
#
Everything else is in the grays.
#
So, that is something of social media where you take a very firm position.
#
And because you've taken it and written it, now you've got to keep defending it.
#
It's what leads to anxiety. It leads to, you know...
#
I mean, it would be interesting to see what this generation looks like in their 40s.
#
I mean, we are still dealing with the first generation of social media kids.
#
I mean, I think they'll be very different people from pre-social media.
#
Like, in India, there are the pre-lib kids and the post-lib kids.
#
Worldwide, there'll be the pre-social media kids and the post-social media kids.
#
And I think it's going to be a very different personality.
#
I don't know whether it'll be better or worse, good or bad,
#
but the impact it'll have on them is enormous.
#
And at least till now, I don't think overall in a good way,
#
but we may be being the uncles.
#
Son, this TV is a very bad thing. Like, you know, if you read Neil Postman's
#
Amusing Ourselves to Death, a lot of what he said was very true and sensible,
#
but most of it hasn't turned out to be true.
#
So I agree with you, but just because this is true darker vision and one wants to...
#
Though I'm normally the pessimist in the room,
#
but the counterpoint I'd give to this is that I think a lot of these people we see
#
being performative on Twitter and social media are really vocal minorities.
#
It's easy to sort of fall for the selection bias and generalize that,
#
oh, this is what the young generation is like.
#
But I think that there's a silent majority out there.
#
I think most young people perhaps aren't necessarily like this.
#
But what worries me about this and about workiness in particular,
#
if I am to elaborate, is that with both extreme ideologies on all sides of the spectrum,
#
the problem I have is when you sort of reduce a person to their identity of birth,
#
which they had nothing to do with.
#
So, you know, on the right side, it could be that you are hated
#
just because you're a Muslim and that's it, that's enough.
#
And you can't love who you want.
#
And on the left, it's again, you're either an oppressor or you're a victim.
#
And once you are reduced to a particular thing like, say, Saat Savarna,
#
once you are reduced to that, one, it shuts down conversation completely
#
because the implicit message is that the content of the argument doesn't matter.
#
You know, you're an oppressor making it and you're responsible for all oppression.
#
But the other aspect of it, like forget the fact,
#
forget who might be at the receiving end of that.
#
The other aspect of it is that once you start thinking in those categories,
#
and I would imagine that once you take those positions,
#
you start thinking in those categories, you become the person you pretend to be,
#
you become your persona in a sense, then it's very sad
#
because then you're thinking in a very limited way about people.
#
People are rich, people are deep, people are complex,
#
and you reduce them to something and you think about them like that.
#
And maybe you think about yourself, if you think about yourself
#
in terms of victimhood, that kind of prevents you.
#
Like one of the things I have discussed in previous episodes is how,
#
you know, there is so much talk, for example,
#
about how the current dispensation is casteist.
#
Now the thing is that more Dalits voted for Modi in both 2014 and 2019
#
than for any other party.
#
A fact that, you know, Mivani lamented in the context of Gujarat.
#
And I think what's happening there is that upper class elite Savarna activists on Twitter
#
would always be about, oh, you know, Dalits are victims.
#
But Dalits across the country are implicitly saying with their actions that,
#
hey, we are not only Dalits, we are a lot more than that.
#
And there might be a problem with the identity they are asserting in its place,
#
which is a whole Hindu identity and all that.
#
There's also a problem with that, you know.
#
But it's dangerous to think in terms of people as categories.
#
And that's as much a criticism about a particular ideology
#
as a lament for the young people who fall into those modes of thinking.
#
And you work with a lot of young people, which I don't on an active daily basis.
#
What do you see around you?
#
Like when I say that these are only vocal minorities or what's your sense?
#
In fact, I was about to come to that.
#
You know, I think you're right statistically,
#
but because we live in little bubbles in India,
#
like statistically, like I said,
#
while growing up you and I were not necessarily middle class.
#
If you take the statistical Indian population of 60 crore in 1983-84
#
when I was, because I remember that number from our book,
#
60 crore, ki abadi wala desh, bharati wala.
#
So, we were probably in the top 5 or 10 crores.
#
So, we were definitely not middle class.
#
I'd say we were the top 1% even then if we could read books.
#
Yeah. Financially, when all the bank accounts are concerned or forges,
#
but yeah, as far as when it comes,
#
which is what privilege is all about confidence of knowing you can do it.
#
Because knowing who you know kind of thing is, it makes a difference.
#
So, statistically you may be right, but the world we inhabit,
#
I'd say you are not, because the world that I inhabit,
#
which is the news world, the media space,
#
it is not a minority, it is the majority.
#
Now that, maybe that's because media is all about media and social media.
#
If you're in media, you're likely on Twitter and stuff,
#
you're definitely on one of them.
#
Like I don't know many reporters or people who are trained to be reporters who are not on Twitter.
#
So, now maybe people, you know, artists aren't,
#
maybe they're on Insta which is also social media.
#
Maybe there are many people who aren't.
#
And even if they are, they aren't taking such positions.
#
People in the media space definitely are.
#
They're taking very committed, hard positions based on a tweet.
#
And I think that's a problem for them because
#
they damage themselves a lot more than who they, you know, lash out to a troll.
#
A, I think young people underestimate and I didn't.
#
And I'm not saying our generation did everything great.
#
I think we fucked up a lot.
#
And some of the office spaces that we worked in are deeply problematic.
#
I mean, on gender, on the language that was used,
#
on what was okay to say, what was okay to get away with.
#
Still are from what I hear about the corporate world and the advertising industry.
#
But in news, it's like moved, like it's moved very significantly.
#
But on certain other things, maybe the downside of not,
#
you know, questioning or pushing back at authority
#
because you were asked to do something, you did it,
#
is because that's what we were taught right from school.
#
You know, if your teacher slapped you, he slapped you.
#
Today, you know, if a teacher slaps a child,
#
there's going to be very shindy at home, you know.
#
When we were in school, I remember ribs broken, yeah, because of a beating.
#
You just didn't complain. I'm just saying it's a good thing.
#
But the good thing that emerged from that is that we learnt.
#
When I joined Newstrike and Madhus told me to do something,
#
I didn't say, you know, Madhu, let me tell you how to do it.
#
Fuck dude, like I can't even think of doing that.
#
I have kids who are telling me how to run my business, man.
#
They come for an interview, for a job.
#
And half way in, they are telling me how to run news laundry.
#
Which is great in a sense.
#
I don't think so. I think it's stupid because
#
you haven't lived long enough to know shit.
#
You may have read a lot.
#
You just don't know and not everyone is going to be patient to indulge you.
#
Your parents may be patient to indulge you.
#
I'm not. I'm not your uncle or dad or mum.
#
I want to see what you can do.
#
And you cannot run a business. You're 20, you're 21, you're 22.
#
If you can, then go run it. Don't tell me how to run it.
#
You don't come for a job and tell the guy how to do his.
#
Especially when they've spoken well, you've heard them out.
#
I mean, they don't know shit.
#
That attitude, that sense of confidence that social media gives you,
#
that leveler, I think keeps them from learning.
#
I think their learning curve on basic dynamics,
#
interpersonal dynamics is going to be a lot longer.
#
Their awareness is a lot more than ours, way more.
#
They will know how many states there are.
#
They will know who the chief minister of every state is.
#
They may know what is the latest bill to be tabled.
#
They would know what happened at the climate conference.
#
But their understanding of how the world operates,
#
being able to identify one car from the other is one thing.
#
Being able to identify how that engine works takes time.
#
So their first level awareness, I think, is way more than ours.
#
But their second level understanding is deeply compromised
#
because of that cocksure attitude that I know everything because it's a theorem.
#
It's not a theorem. Only a theorem is a theorem.
#
Everything else is evolving.
#
I'll give you an example.
#
On this whole Dave Chappelle thing, my views, many youngsters tell me,
#
I didn't think there was anything wrong with Dave Chappelle.
#
I just saw the closer, the last one.
#
I haven't seen much of his earlier work, I must admit.
#
But what I have seen of his, which is a little bit,
#
I don't see him as homophobic or transphobic.
#
Now, I may be wrong, but I was talking to someone,
#
I said, oh, how can you say that? Oh my God!
#
Everything is, oh my God!
#
I said, okay, let's reason this.
#
Let's start off from, my starting point is,
#
I understand homophobia is a thing because I know.
#
I went to an all-boys school.
#
I know how horrible it was for many guys who couldn't come out.
#
At least there was no question of coming out, man.
#
I mean, it's taken them in their forties to come out.
#
Because the trauma of childhood doesn't go,
#
you know, with bloody dormitory full of, you know, prison rules kind of situation.
#
I understand there's something called homophobia and transphobia.
#
I understand a significant amount of people, if not majority, have that.
#
I'm aware of that and I acknowledge that.
#
Now, let's come to, is Dave Chappelle that?
#
Are you willing to start your point of view from the fact
#
that there is something called overwokeness
#
or, you know, this over-political correctness?
#
And then, is it possible that is what is leading to this?
#
And then come, the dude would refuse to acknowledge that there is such a thing.
#
Which is why there is no conversation.
#
If you cannot even acknowledge that there is such a thing as an overwokeness,
#
that everything is this performative political correctness,
#
then dude, you have decided this is a mathematical theorem and you're fucked.
#
Because I will learn, because I understand these are fluid things.
#
If things that are complex, socio-political, sociological, gender,
#
contextual to the society you're in,
#
not everybody who lived in the 1800s was evil.
#
They were good people then, as many as now.
#
They were still good people as many as now.
#
But slavery was a thing which was normal.
#
In that film, when Mangal Pandey is going in the morning,
#
Aamir Khan as Mangal Pandey is the hero of the film.
#
I don't know whether you remember this.
#
Now, the guy who is sweeping the Ghat where he is taking a dip
#
because Pandey Ji is Janayuv Dhaari.
#
And it was a comedy sequence.
#
Now, I think it was a problematic thing to have that as a comedy sequence
#
in Mangal Pandey in the 2000s whenever it was made.
#
Because it's not cute that your hero doesn't want this,
#
you know, Dalit guy's shadow to fall on him.
#
You could have made that comment in a way that was sympathetic to Mangal Pandey.
#
That dude, he was a product of the 1800s.
#
So, not everybody who lives them was evil.
#
They were just like you and I, a product of our times.
#
We grew up in a generation where calling someone a faggot was affectionate.
#
Hey, fag, what are you doing this evening?
#
Like, you can't do that today.
#
So, now this generation thinks that they've got 2 plus 2 is 4 and it will be 4 forever.
#
And I think because of social media,
#
because it is set there in stone,
#
I remember the first so-called, back then it was a scandal,
#
the whole, you know, gay scandal that came out in school was
#
with much, you know, this thing you were telling my sister.
#
Of course, one couldn't tell parents because my parents would flip out
#
and, you know, they'd probably say,
#
beta, you are so tiny, no one has tried anything on you, you know, whatever.
#
You know, they'd flip out.
#
But my sister, I remember telling me that, so, what's the problem?
#
I said, what do you mean what's the problem, dude?
#
You know, I was what, 15 or 16 and she was, I think, in college by then.
#
She was finished college, 6 years older.
#
So, yeah, she must be in third year.
#
So, and then she sat me down.
#
She says, what makes you think that there's something wrong with that?
#
I go and answer the question.
#
I said, because I'm natural.
#
She says, what's natural?
#
She says, are you natural?
#
You are so much tiny than everybody else.
#
Then, you know, so, she sat me down.
#
She asked me questions.
#
I didn't have answers to.
#
She says, who says that this is how it should be?
#
Are you following some, you know, Veda or some part Ramayan Mahavardh Lekha Hai?
#
So, then you kind of said, yeah, what the fuck, man.
#
So, by then I was in class 12.
#
I was one of the most progressive kids in my class because that time majority of the boys are still, dude, oh, dude, don't.
#
Hey, dude, you can't be a fag kind of shit.
#
And I was like, dude, shut the fuck up here.
#
Just leave these guys alone.
#
And I remember, you know, certain guys being bullied and I was like, fuck, dude, back off.
#
And because I had friends who were, you know, big, you know, people would listen to me.
#
But it took a while to evolve.
#
And even for 1991, I was more progressive than 90% of my batch.
#
And I'm still evolving.
#
But I'm not wrong on everything, dude.
#
I may be wrong on some.
#
And this is a sense of self-doubt that the overwork Gen Z doesn't have.
#
They know today how it is forever.
#
And, oh, boy, are they fucking in for a surprise when they...
#
And sorry, just one thing.
#
This one fantastic book review that...
#
He was my flatmate for a while when I was in college because, you know,
#
we couldn't afford for me to have a live by myself.
#
Because my dad is 4G quota, he had got, you know, the retired of 4G.
#
In Noida, there was one colony.
#
In South Delhi, there was one colony.
#
In East Delhi, there was one colony with all the retired 4G colonies that had come up.
#
So, he got a flat there.
#
His name was Sunil Mehra.
#
In fact, he was a writer for India Today and Outlook.
#
And one of the most gifted writers.
#
Now, he does this Dastan Goi.
#
And he was one of the petitioners for that 66A.
#
66A, I am saying, shit.
#
Everything of mine is 66A.
#
The decriminalizing homosexuality,
#
which was not 66A, which was...
#
So, and I remember Tara Deshpande had come in a film called Is Raat Ki Subhya Nahi.
#
And, you know, she was like rave reviews.
#
And she is the new Smitha Patil, the thinking man, sex bomb, and yeh wo tungta.
#
And she was 24 and she wrote a book.
#
And I remember he reviewed it.
#
And it was patronizing and a little nasty, but it was really funny.
#
And I was, I think, I must have been 20, 21 at the time when I read it.
#
He said, you know, you are really smart, you are really bright, you are really talented.
#
But you haven't lived long enough yet to write an autobiography.
#
You have nothing to tell me.
#
I mean, either you are Ronaldo who grew up in poverty and bloody became Ronaldo.
#
Then in 24 you have a story.
#
But if you are a middle class kid like you and me,
#
what are you going to write in 24 that I had done a film?
#
And that is something that I think a lot of kids need to do.
#
You just haven't lived long enough yet.
#
And there is no substitute to experience.
#
And that is something that I am more and more convinced as I get older.
#
We are going to be called uncles for saying this.
#
First of all, credit to your sister for sitting down and having that conversation with you back in that day,
#
which is pretty impressive.
#
And also good that you listened because in this age of social media,
#
if you had already taken stances everywhere, then who knows.
#
But like one way to figure out...
#
That should have beaten me up.
#
One way to figure out how sort of open people are,
#
I think it's just to ask them that what facts would convince you you are wrong.
#
And if there's absolutely nothing, then obviously it's dogmatic.
#
I've gotten into scraps because when Chimamanda Adichie wrote an excellent piece on social media a while back,
#
I linked it and people were like, hey, but she's transphobic and all that.
#
And I was like, why is she transphobic?
#
And I didn't find any of that convincing.
#
And one of the reasons was, hey, but because she defended JK Rowling.
#
And I was like, okay, so why is Rowling transphobic?
#
Because I really don't think she is from everything that I have read.
#
I think those are overinterpretations.
#
And what I've realized is that when these so-called facts, Rowling is transphobic,
#
when it almost becomes a dogmatic matter.
#
And it reminds me in some ways of the blasphemy law in Pakistan.
#
Like in Pakistan, if someone is charged with blasphemy,
#
you can't even say they may not have committed blasphemy
#
because if they say that you will be a blasphemer yourself.
#
So it's not like you're defending blasphemy.
#
All you're saying is that she hasn't committed blasphemy.
#
But just by saying that she may not have committed
#
you're a blasphemer yourself.
#
So of course I got called a transphobe myself,
#
which is as far from the truth as it can be.
#
So let's kind of get back to the trajectory of a career we left off in DU,
#
where which the environment sounds like a lot of these young people
#
should actually perhaps go there and get some experience.
#
I tell them, something that I regret often is like when I flip out,
#
when I get angry, which I don't get so often,
#
I used to get really angry very often.
#
Like I was on a hair trigger all the time.
#
There was stress. I was doing a lot of things.
#
I was shooting, having my plate.
#
I was like my day was packed, man.
#
And at that time, just because you're always on edge, you flip out.
#
I don't do that so much.
#
But sometimes when I do, I really regret it later at night.
#
Which is why I don't carry grudges because if I carry grudge
#
and the same standard is applied to me,
#
a lot of people don't talk to me ever because when I lose it,
#
I can say really nasty things.
#
But, you know, this I have said often enough that
#
you should have been in D.U. in the 90s
#
and you would not be so,
#
Oh, yeh ho gaya. Oh, this was too much.
#
Oh, I can't deal with this. Oh, this gives me anxiety.
#
Dude, till you were back home,
#
you would always be dealing with anxiety.
#
That was just the environment it was.
#
So, yeah, I think there is something to say about tough love.
#
You can't go through life not expecting to have doubt or be anxious.
#
It's not a condition. It's life.
#
And that's not to say I'm not denying that there is something called anxiety.
#
unless there is something deeply wrong with this generation,
#
the data of people who I know who have anxiety is way more than
#
I think would be considered an acceptable level
#
for a society to be largely healthy.
#
Then our society is finished.
#
Jonathan Haight had made this great observation
#
in the context of teenage girls
#
committing suicide more and more in the US
#
and suffering from depression.
#
And there was a Facebook study which actually validated this
#
which Facebook suppressed many years ago.
#
And the thesis was this,
#
that when the internet really started exploding,
#
people worried about teenage boys, young boys.
#
They said that they'll play video games all the time
#
and they'll be violent and all that.
#
Now it turns out that that was just fine.
#
The boys played video games and learned problem solving.
#
It wasn't a big deal. They developed fine.
#
The problem happened with the girls
#
because how girls were typically socialized
#
when they're adolescent or pre-adolescent or whatever,
#
not my words, I'm kind of paraphrasing
#
what others have said and experts have said,
#
is that they're kind of hanging out together in school
#
and that's how they are being social and all of that.
#
But what social media did was it pushed them into a performative space
#
like Instagram where everybody's looking at best and all of that.
#
And the anxieties of having to be performative,
#
having to compete all the time.
#
Like I think you and I had the luxury
#
of being able to fall into our skins
#
without needing to construct it for ourselves
#
to compete with everybody else's constructed selves.
#
And it's something I feel really bad for all these people.
#
But I hope that it's kind of a small minority.
#
And if you see more of them, perhaps it's,
#
you know, the self-selection of the media profession itself,
#
which might attract those people,
#
that's my hope, I don't know.
#
But to get back to the narrative of your life,
#
so you've done your economics at Hansraj College and all that,
#
what are you looking at doing
#
and how do you then, you know, end up at News Track?
#
Looking at just surviving,
#
I mean there are certain bits that I won't go into
#
because I'm a very private person.
#
But a variety of things by 95
#
was just through my life in a spin
#
where I was kind of adrift.
#
And I would have to watch out for myself
#
or my sisters would have to watch out for what I did.
#
There was nobody else really looking over
#
So my sister had a very close friend, Sabrina Dhawan,
#
who's now a professor at NYU.
#
She also wrote Monsoon Wedding
#
and Kamine and I think Ishkiya.
#
She's done a whole bunch of films with Vishal.
#
She was a reporter with News Track,
#
which was a news magazine.
#
She had known me since I was 12.
#
So you know that my sister went to school,
#
they had a group, Srinivasan Jain of NDTV Vasu,
#
and there were two or three more others.
#
They were at Hindu College English Honours gang.
#
And I was in school, I was in class 6 or 7.
#
So when I used to come to Delhi,
#
that was my first experience with DU.
#
They were the nerds of, you know,
#
so it had the arty bunch, it had the goons,
#
it had the rich kids kind of thing.
#
So Sabrina said, you know,
#
what are you doing in third year college?
#
And my sister said, you know,
#
she hardly ever goes to college.
#
I know he's hanging out here, there with all sorts of...
#
And I had to start making a living.
#
It wasn't... I mean, I...
#
I had to start making money.
#
I had to start funding for myself.
#
So she said, why don't you come and work at News Track?
#
She says, you write well.
#
You've already written a few book reviews
#
for this magazine while you're here.
#
Why don't you meet my boss, Madhu?
#
I mean, there was no other choice.
#
So you would either watch, you know,
#
Bold and Beautiful or those shit shows that came
#
or watch MTV, Banjo Macho, you remember those?
#
I worked in Channel V and MTV for four years.
#
Dude, you know, I look at that...
#
Do you remember that Banjo Macho,
#
the characters were going through...
#
Very vaguely, very vaguely.
#
That would not make it on air today.
#
None of that would make it on air.
#
Dude, it was so funny and it was hysterical.
#
And I remember this spoof of...
#
They had this clay motion,
#
Salman Khan character and that...
#
And it was like really potty humor.
#
So this Salman Khan guy laughing.
#
He says, oh, oh, jane, ye hai kal ka khana.
#
And he really like farts at the audience.
#
It was so stupid, but it was so funny.
#
So I went and met Madhu and Madhu was like very busy.
#
Even now, I mean, now she's I think 74.
#
That time, I'm talking about 95.
#
So it's how many years ago?
#
So she'd be 50 perhaps?
#
So, I mean, you can imagine if at 74,
#
she walks so fast, like she's...
#
She says, yeah, what's your name?
#
So it was like a five minute interview.
#
Now, this is what I mean by privilege.
#
I got a foot into News Track,
#
which had probably 30 reporters at the time.
#
I mean, everyone who's heading any news organization
#
in India right now of consequence is from News Track.
#
You know, and I got in there just because I knew Sabrina.
#
So you may not be the son of an industrialist,
#
but you are privileged because you can walk in
#
Now, whether you want to, you know,
#
fuck up that chance or not is up to you.
#
But dude, 99.99% will not even get that chance.
#
They won't even know their chance.
#
So I went and one thing was that,
#
and this is what I even tell,
#
I may have been rebellious and often not,
#
you know, I had a lot of problems.
#
But I was very hardworking,
#
which is why tilted laziness
#
makes me more angry than anything else.
#
When I see a young person who's working and is lazy,
#
oh man, I just flip out.
#
I'm like, if you fucking can't work at this age,
#
when you're fucking 47, you will be doing jack shit.
#
I could get by like, I could get by three to four days
#
without sleeping more than three hours a day.
#
Today, of course, I've got diabetes
#
and I'm sure that's one of the reasons.
#
If I go without eight hours of sleep for my second day,
#
Yeah, I know what you mean.
#
When you're young, you can do that.
#
You can, you know, get smashed.
#
You can wake up in the morning six,
#
And we're talking about pre-internet, pre-EVMs.
#
So, I started working as a researcher.
#
There was such a thing as a researcher.
#
And later in news, there were no such things as researchers.
#
News laundry still has people as researchers,
#
I actually restarted that, what I learned from Madhu.
#
And research meant that you didn't have the internet.
#
So, let's say, I remember the first story I was working on
#
you know, the MQM, the Muqtuhadi Qami movement of Pakistan.
#
So, of course, I didn't know who the fuck Altaf Hossain was.
#
So, I said, go to the India Day Library
#
and get me research on Altaf Hossain,
#
which research on Altaf Hossain meant you took a file,
#
you wrote on that Altaf Hossain for Alpana Kishore,
#
who was my immediate boss at the time.
#
And then Madhu was her boss.
#
And you go to, so, competent house,
#
which is cannot place middle circle, was a news track office.
#
India Day office was, he blocked the corner office.
#
And India Day Library was in this end block only on the inner circle.
#
So, you went and then, you know, with these wheels,
#
you pull those things and those columns move.
#
I don't know what you call those, but they're on these tracks.
#
So, these huge from the, you know, from the ground to the ceiling,
#
there are these cabinets and you,
#
with a wheel you can move them, there are like 10 of them stacked up.
#
So, all the Time magazines, all the India Today magazines,
#
all the Times of India newspapers,
#
they're all in these big, big files, like with the date,
#
right from like 1980 to 82, 82 to 83, 83.
#
And you just start taking them out at random.
#
And looking for anything to do with Altaf Hossain.
#
What you do with the search of Altaf Hossain today.
#
And then you, so, you read like one paragraph of the book of everything.
#
And they say, okay, Altaf Hossain photocopy, photocopy.
#
So, over like four, five days,
#
you have a file that is fairly thick of Altaf Hossain related articles.
#
And then you take it to the reporter.
#
He or she will read that.
#
Then they determine the story of Altaf Hossain.
#
And then that story will be scripted.
#
There'll be shoots happening over two, three, four days.
#
Then edits happening over two, three days.
#
And then a story will come out,
#
which will be anything from five to 25 minutes.
#
That's how the news was.
#
I'm so glad you sketched it out in detail like that,
#
because people today, including me often,
#
just take the internet for granted.
#
That research hai toh search karo.
#
And it's like physically going there, moving wheels, columns moving,
#
taking out shit at random.
#
So, you just take one file after the other.
#
So, you got chak, chak, chak, chak, chak, chak.
#
Like the one you see Pooja Bedi photo,
#
you know it's not Altaf Hossain.
#
So, it's the people will be thinking.
#
So, that means you read every magazine.
#
If there's a cover story in Pakistan,
#
you know there'll be a mention of Altaf Hossain.
#
So, then you find good.
#
If the cover story is on Rajiv Gandhi's assassination, for example,
#
then you know that these pages, you don't even go.
#
You see, okay, this story is from page 29 to page 38 as Rajiv Gandhi.
#
Page that says Pooja Bedi's photo, this is not Altaf Hossain.
#
Tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk.
#
So, that's how you go through it.
#
So, sometimes you can go through like 20 magazines in like 40 minutes
#
and you're fairly accurate.
#
So, yeah, that was how we did research.
#
And then, you know, within three months,
#
I was, you know, elevated to a reporter.
#
Then you started doing your own stories.
#
Meanwhile, news track kind of died.
#
I mean, it became a weekly show.
#
The cassettes were phased out.
#
In fact, cassettes were phased out the month I joined.
#
I think a month before that.
#
We were just doing the last...
#
Do those archives exist anywhere?
#
Well, I have the VHS tapes in my office.
#
So, I want to ask you about one particular, sorry for the digression,
#
but one particular story that imprinted itself on me
#
just because it was so hilarious and so truthful, which I still remember,
#
which would have been before your time, but you might have seen it.
#
And it was this interview of Devi Lal where he was being asked that,
#
you know, why he made Om Prakash Chautala
#
the Chief Minister of Haryana at the time.
#
And I remember the angle was like he was sort of in a banyan and dhoti
#
and his feet were up on this thing in the garden.
#
And the angle was from below the shoes.
#
So, you had giant kids and Devi Lal in the background.
#
Right, I remember the shot.
#
why did you make your son the Chief Minister?
#
And Devi Lal said, did you make Bhajan Lal's son?
#
Which I thought was a remarkable answer, right?
#
Yeah, and I haven't obviously found it anywhere on YouTube,
#
but if you have the tapes.
#
No, I have all the archives.
#
So, of course, then Aaj Tak started as a bulletin.
#
And I remember when Aaj Tak started,
#
and here is again where I was wrong and so wrong.
#
When Aaj Tak started, people may take Hindi news
#
as a viewership thing for granted.
#
But, I mean, back then I think Ajit was a Punjabi paper
#
that had a huge circulation.
#
Otherwise, news was an English thing on television.
#
You know, there was a Hindi, but you know, news track,
#
the Hindi news track was a later thing.
#
India Today was a Hindi magazine.
#
There was Dharmayur and Saptaik Hindustan,
#
but they didn't have, you know, the kind of sway.
#
I don't know about the numbers,
#
but I'm guessing considering they didn't really rock the world
#
and they folded up soon.
#
India Today, English magazine,
#
there was an editor, Hindi, which was like an afterthought,
#
but news was English, news track.
#
Then, you know, after news tracks, spectacular success,
#
Eyewitness had started,
#
Karan Thap had started some cassettes,
#
then there was People Plus,
#
you know, there was a whole bunch of them came.
#
So, when Aaj Tak started, most people,
#
and you just, you know, observe and say,
#
Many people were of the view, where will this go?
#
Hindi people don't want news.
#
So, for English speaking, there's news.
#
For Hindi speaking, there's cinema.
#
You know, that was a thinking.
#
And fuck how wrong everybody was.
#
And how fucking patronising that was.
#
And how Aaj Tak exploded and news track folded up
#
and Aaj Tak became the thing.
#
So, then I reported for Aaj Tak,
#
and that was a huge like kind of shock,
#
because from stories being between, you know,
#
the first phase when it was, Aaj Tak as a bulletin was 24 minutes,
#
because there were 6 minutes FCT,
#
which is called free commercial time.
#
3 minutes belong to the government,
#
3 minutes belong to the person.
#
And, you know, we had to finish stories in 90 seconds.
#
I was like, what the fuck, 90 seconds is just,
#
I am spending my time till then.
#
So, that is what, you know,
#
I don't sure refer to soundbred journalism.
#
So, that we had formula.
#
Opening voiceover, which is about, you know,
#
Middle voiceover, bite.
#
Closing voiceover, piece to camera, done.
#
And that, you know, you saw how people like S.P. Singh,
#
who died, you know, way too early,
#
and there was Ajay Dada, who also unfortunately died in a car accident,
#
and Nakvi Dada, they knew how to tell that story quickly, you know,
#
just get to the meat of the story.
#
And of course, there was some,
#
one of the advantages of working in the 90s was that
#
you got to cover 3 general elections in 5 years.
#
Normally, for people, it took 15 years,
#
because, you know, Devilal,
#
Devilal Bulram, Sitaram Kesari
#
made that government collapse, so there was one.
#
Then, there was a hung parliament,
#
Atal, Bihari, Vajpayee's
#
13-day government, and a 13-month government,
#
So, there was, you know,
#
so you got to cover, you know, two Lok Sabha elections
#
very close to each other.
#
there were really funny things,
#
because that was the first time there was live happening
#
Otherwise, Doordarshan used to live. So, it was Aapka Faisla,
#
which was all the reporters
#
and anchors would be India Today's,
#
and who was the fourth?
#
all the reporters would be us guys,
#
and the producers would be Doordarshan's.
#
there was such a huge difference, because,
#
in our time, if you didn't get the shit done,
#
your ass would be fucking kicked,
#
and Madhu didn't suffer fools.
#
And, we were working with
#
producers, so, you know,
#
Jujhar Singh. He now, I think,
#
does a show on NewsX. He used to do a show,
#
you may have seen him, he used to anchor a bunch of stuff.
#
And, badi jaddo jahit karke,
#
he got LK Advani. Like, it was a fucking scoop,
#
at night, LK Advani ko alaya hai.
#
there used to be these big OB vans.
#
You know, now OB vans are these short truck type things,
#
that also aren't used, now you have a little bit.
#
The OB van was the size of a, you know,
#
bus. Inside, there would be all these
#
monitors, there would be the faders, there would be the
#
big consoles, like, you know, this one.
#
And, it had this one master
#
switch. Once you switched it off,
#
you know, like the old ACs, you can't switch it on for half an hour.
#
You have to wait half an hour, and then switch it on.
#
So, it was dinner time,
#
and Doordarshan is a government job.
#
So, they said, dinner time hai?
#
So, she said, but I've got LK Advani,
#
Advani ji aah rahe hain,
#
aah rahe honge, khatak.
#
And, she's all like, I can't
#
get him back. And, these guys are like,
#
hum drink kahan jaana hai, abhi nahi honka.
#
of a government job, man.
#
You know, they were answerable to nobody.
#
I worked really hard. Like, for the time
#
that I was there, I didn't stand out
#
for my intellect or anything.
#
needed to be done, which needed you to stay in office
#
for three nights, I wouldn't.
#
Why? No, no, I wanted to go home.
#
One was for a lot of people, there was genuine
#
this thing, especially back then for girls,
#
that, you know, the parents won't say, you'll go to office
#
on Monday, come back on Thursday, are you fucking serious?
#
For a lot of guys also, that would be the case.
#
Apne koi puchhne wala tha,
#
mein Thursday hain, ki Friday hain, ki main aaui nahi,
#
no one gave a fuck. So,
#
for those four years, from 95 to 99.
#
quit, which was, I think, 96, 97,
#
here for very long. Age journalism,
#
the way it was being done that time,
#
was not for me. And, at the
#
back of my head, it was that I
#
had no problem reporting to Madhu, because I was very young,
#
I was just 20. But, as I became
#
thought crystallized. Maybe had Madhu
#
been my boss, I would have happily worked, I don't know.
#
But, when there was a change
#
of management, the whole, you know, office
#
changed, everything changed.
#
Then, Prashant, who was also
#
with me at News Trek, we quit and we started
#
a production, I was called Small Screen, in 99.
#
documentary film, which won a couple of awards.
#
So, we got, back then, like
#
three and a half thousand dollars in award money.
#
That kept you going for a month.
#
go month on month. My sister would
#
So, there were two, three years of struggle, where
#
I often wondered, because Bafoons, who
#
I am not saying I was their boss, but in
#
office, they would be nobodies, were suddenly
#
anchoring prime times. You know, that is when
#
the boom happened, the mid-2000s. And,
#
me and Prashant, you say, we didn't make a mistake,
#
we would be watching TV,
#
he is anchoring, what to do?
#
Okay, then, I don't want to take names,
#
he has become managing editor. I say,
#
are you fucking serious? That duffer doesn't know
#
his ass from his elbow. And, then
#
suddenly, that time, a Hyundai Accent came.
#
Everyone's Accent, Hyundai Accent
#
started buying. I went from
#
earning, I joined at three and a half thousand, then
#
I, you know, moved to seven thousand, soon I became
#
a reporter. Then, I went up to eleven and a half thousand.
#
When I quit, which was in Bombay,
#
I was posted to Bombay, and
#
Millind Khandekar was my boss at the time.
#
I think, now he is heading Aaj Tak, and
#
he was with ABP for a while.
#
you know, a lot of these people, who we had
#
worked with, would finance.
#
So, from eleven thousand, twelve thousand salaries,
#
at that time, we are talking, people were getting
#
forty, forty-five thousand, which is unheard of
#
in our profession. And, here,
#
we had one documentary film,
#
after that, if we didn't get another project,
#
to do a corporate film.
#
You know, it was like, and then,
#
you know, you'd often wonder, dude, have we made the wrong choice?
#
Like, you know, people who are not
#
even half as smart as us, or so we thought,
#
prime time shows, they are wearing suits,
#
you and I are still struggling to,
#
you know, buy another pair of shoes.
#
But, I'm glad we stuck it out.
#
Because, then, when the boom happened,
#
then, you know, we got, you know,
#
one show, we got election
#
shows for some Tamil channel,
#
because we had the reporter's background.
#
of travel shows, and the travel boom started.
#
And, you know, we did a show called High When I Played,
#
which became a spectacular success.
#
Then, Fox Traveler came, we did
#
Twist of Taste with Meenu Bhatia. So,
#
I was so glad we stuck it out, because for the next
#
seven or eight years, you know,
#
now, startup is a thing. So, from just Prashanth,
#
me, Pancham and Ramakant, who were our
#
office guys, and Ramakant is still
#
with us at News Laundry. Pancham has retired
#
and gone back to his village in Kumau.
#
He just retired last year. So, the four
#
founders of Small Screen were Prashanth,
#
Ramakant, Pancham and me.
#
And then, without any funding, we see,
#
we grew from like, you know, four people
#
And it was organic growth, no funding.
#
You know, you did a show, you saved some money,
#
you hired another person. You did a show,
#
saved some money, bought an Apple G3,
#
when there was G3. Then, you saved some money,
#
bought a G4, hired another
#
editor. And then, you grew, grew, and then
#
at one time, there was not a travel,
#
there was not a lifestyle channel
#
in India, which did not have
#
a travel show that wasn't produced for us.
#
Twist Of Taste, you know, What's With Indian Men,
#
What's With Indian Women, Roti Rasta
#
India, Highway On My Plate.
#
I don't even remember the names of, you know,
#
we had a travel show on every,
#
every channel. And meanwhile,
#
there were other shows we were doing, we were doing
#
small-time ad films. And meanwhile,
#
I was writing this show called
#
Gusta Ki Maafan The Greatness Dimasha.
#
Again, how did I get that?
#
A friend of mine used to work
#
at NTV, Manvi Sinha, she was, you know,
#
a prophet, she was an anchor there.
#
in Wellam Girls, she was a school captain,
#
I was at Doon. And she was
#
my mother's favourite student, and my mother
#
used to keep saying that you are Tittan Nikamai,
#
she's going for debates at the age of 14,
#
sent up to the headmaster for indiscipline,
#
because I used to get in. She was Sharmaji ka beta.
#
She was Sharmaji ka beta, and I was the guy who
#
was always being complained about, that your son,
#
you know, did this, and then he was rude to
#
such and such teacher, and then he was rude to such and such boy,
#
and then he did this, and he did that.
#
So, Manvi was there, and they were
#
looking to start a, and it was very hush-hush
#
at the time. We can't tell you
#
too much, but it's political
#
and it's funny. Can you do that?
#
I was like, of course I can do that, because
#
like, stories would get rejected all the time at Aaj Tak,
#
because I would, you know, try to add some funny element
#
to the stories. And it was
#
like, Niku, yeh kya tarashe kar rahe ho?
#
Yeh kaisa voice pe wo likha hai? I remember, and I was
#
always asked to do like, during election time,
#
we do political stories, otherwise you were asked to do stories like
#
go to Lodi Garden and ask, do a
#
Vox Pop and what do people feel about Bill Clinton's
#
why the fuck does a Lodi Garden walk and give a fuck about
#
Bill Clinton? But, you know,
#
and ask them what is the New Year Resolution?
#
I remember Pranam Mukherjee going to his house
#
a bungalow opposite Pranam Mukherjee that,
#
you know, the guy who hurt his leg in a bomb blast,
#
that Sikh guy who was...
#
I forget the name but I know who you are talking about.
#
I remember, you know, you could just walk into the house
#
and ask for an interview, yaar.
#
And ask for the New Year Resolution.
#
News track was the only game in town,
#
no one would say no to news track camera.
#
So, you know, when I was 21, 22,
#
I interviewed like Sushma Swaraj, I interviewed Pranam Mukherjee,
#
I interviewed that Home Minister
#
would keep changing his outfit. Patil?
#
Prateep Patil? No, no, no.
#
Congress ka, yaar, from
#
the Home Minister who got a lot of flak when the bomb blast happened.
#
Shivraj Patil? Shivraj Patil.
#
So, I mean, I've interviewed all these guys
#
if you were an Aajstha on a news track camera,
#
you were the biggest, you know, game.
#
Were there any memorable New Year Resolutions?
#
Dude, everybody want to write a book.
#
This year, I will write a book. I was like, okay.
#
very creative, I remember.
#
So, it was exciting in that
#
sense and anyway, so then, when this
#
she called me and she said, you know,
#
NDTV is looking for a show where they
#
are looking for a funny guy who knows politics
#
and I thought, you are the guy.
#
So, why don't you come and meet the producer
#
Hiding at Pranoy's Adosco. Now, this is what I mean by privilege.
#
As soon as you walk in, you say...
#
Small circles. Dune, batch of 92.
#
Oh, really? Dune, batch of 66, you know.
#
That immediate, there's a
#
they asked me to write 2-3 scripts which
#
were quite funny. There was so much material in any case.
#
I wrote that show from 2003-2010
#
was a daily show. I mean, first it was a weekly
#
and then became a daily show which was
#
very hard. That taught me discipline, waking up every morning
#
at 6 after having watched 2 or 3
#
bulletins the night before.
#
You know, wait for the newspapers to come,
#
see the first bulletin by
#
11 o'clock, have 3 scripts ready, 3
#
But because of this keyed-off news, by
#
started. They had mushroomed all sorts of Zee,
#
Star had started with NDTV
#
in part. Now, it wasn't insane like it is
#
now, but it was still ridiculously
#
shrill and I remember me and Madhu would often meet in
#
Delhi, you know, because I have a
#
common friend who's a very good friend of hers
#
so you'd often meet at some wedding or something.
#
Not to say I move in Madhu's circles,
#
but I have this one friend who is
#
very friendly with Madhu, whose
#
parents are very friendly with Madhu. So,
#
because at that time we were all
#
of marriageable age, there were 3 quick
#
succession marriages and Madhu was
#
there at the marriage, so was I. And we were like, dude, what the fuck
#
is happening? Because, now, I have a
#
lot of respect for them and
#
many of them are friends of mine, but
#
many of them went through a phase where
#
they were so impressed with themselves being on
#
TV that they became like,
#
oh my god, look here I am, look here
#
there's this happening and I'm here kind of thing.
#
done all that at Newstrike, you know, so
#
Madhu said, we should do a show that is
#
So, we pitched that show,
#
we took it to Rajdeep, who had started CNNIBN,
#
we took it to Pranoy, we took it to
#
this one who at times now he
#
was doing, I don't know,
#
it was all great idea, because, you know,
#
now people take for granted that everyone takes part shots
#
there was this unspoken rule, you will
#
attack everybody but not fellow media,
#
no matter what you think of them.
#
who the fuck made this rule?
#
And this is when things like
#
my sister's talk, who made this rule, you know,
#
very early in life I was
#
a rule of nature or is it math?
#
If it is neither of these,
#
it can be broken. So, I'm like, why the
#
fuck can't you name each other and, you know, and still be
#
like this a lot about Barkha.
#
We have done, searing critique
#
of Barkha. I myself have criticized
#
various aspects of hers and I also
#
really admire various aspects of hers.
#
But she can take it in the jaw and move on.
#
you didn't like that, okay, you like this,
#
okay, come on, we are becoming friends.
#
But she will, she won't sulk.
#
Someone like Sagarika doesn't have
#
once made a cut for life
#
and most people in the media were like
#
this. So, I didn't give a fuck
#
because I have very good friends who are not in the media. So, I said,
#
I don't want to be friends with you anyway. Madhu
#
doesn't give a fuck because, dude,
#
everyone said, lovely idea. But
#
you'll criticize us also. We said, of course, you criticize
#
you. We can't be on your channel and take
#
photos, but no, no, no, no, no.
#
And many of them said, no, you know, this is not
#
done. We shouldn't comment on media.
#
So, Prashant, Madhu, me, Rupak,
#
by that time, our friend had also joined
#
small screen because he had said
#
he was in a family business. He's a childhood
#
friend of mine. And he said, dude, he's
#
creative, creative bent. He says, I
#
don't want to do that. You know,
#
let me come on to small screen
#
and we'll do something. And it's
#
small screen news laundry runs separately because
#
for propriety reasons, you know,
#
corporate governance, it's conflict of interest.
#
There are hundreds of things happen. So, we
#
separated in 2014 and also the
#
investor demands conditions, precedence.
#
You cannot sit on any other board
#
and all that shit. So, you have to separate everything.
#
fuck everyone, we'll run on the internet.
#
So, I said, who watches the whole internet?
#
He says, they watch, 1%
#
by that time, I was also,
#
I'm only a professional career. Meanwhile,
#
Arvind Kejriwal had also happened in
#
2002 when I was shooting documentaries
#
and we became very friendly and then we
#
started an NGO together and stuff.
#
Then when this thing happened, I realized the power
#
of the internet. I said, Prashant,
#
you're very smart. Let's do this on the internet.
#
So, then when we said, do this on the internet,
#
then from one show, which would
#
was clothesline Madhu's show, it became
#
Nikku, you do a series called I Agree
#
where you interview. We'll do articles, we'll do
#
cartoons, we'll do comics.
#
And there was not much additional cost because
#
small screen had, you know, 50 employees.
#
It had, you know, 12 editing
#
machines, it had 8 directors, it had, you know.
#
for 5 people we'd hire and we'd start.
#
It was a passion project, it was Kida.
#
News ka Kida Prashant ko tha,
#
Madhu ko tha, wo mujhe tha.
#
That was the only reason news laundry started.
#
And in 2-3 years, it became a
#
thing. And one thing from the beginning,
#
we were clear that it is subscribers
#
I had, you know, at that
#
time, and I remember discussing this with Madhu,
#
figured that ads will kill
#
news. And if you see in 2012,
#
our mission statement says this.
#
I said, news cannot survive on
#
ads. Because even though the insanity
#
of Arnab had not happened yet,
#
the whole thing of Bunty and
#
Bubbly anchoring a show, you know,
#
this was I think in 2004 or 2005,
#
I was watching news, I was like, what the
#
fuck, how can you, your prime time
#
cannot turn this into a gimmick to
#
do Bunty, and there's NDTV, dude.
#
It's not like times now.
#
Every channel was doing,
#
Suhail Seth was a fucking toast of
#
Like, I was like, what the fuck,
#
stupid. It wasn't Arnab insanity, let me
#
repeat. But the reasons for
#
it being ridiculous were different.
#
But I was like, because ads,
#
because this dude will get you ads,
#
that dude will get you ads.
#
No one is going to say anything about cricket
#
because cricket will get you ads.
#
So, we had the luxury of
#
not having to make a living because small screen
#
was doing amazing work.
#
So, we could take that, you know, just you could
#
afford to be virtuous. We won't
#
take ads from the beginning.
#
So, that was our mission statement.
#
News can't be done with ads, boss.
#
Because that's the nature of the beast. So, then
#
and then, of course, once it started and again,
#
but I will say that, boss,
#
you have to know her to understand what an
#
amazing person she is. You know,
#
she is the kind who would not even
#
ask for a Padmishri. And Padmishri
#
givers would know better than to offer it to her
#
because she will say, I didn't come here for Padmishri.
#
Other journalists have no
#
problem taking Padmishris. She would
#
not even look at it. So, they know better than to give it to her.
#
She was the kind of person
#
who when we would be, and I will not take
#
names here, at night there was a big
#
thing that happened in Delhi with a very big name
#
and we all knew that person is
#
Anjad. So, we were like, dude,
#
and Madhu was in office at night,
#
Madhu, we are going to do this story, this
#
she says, why are you telling me, go do it.
#
But, you know, he is friends with
#
your brother, your family or whatever.
#
You are a reporter, you do the story, I will handle
#
rest. Who the fuck has the balls
#
to say that today, tell me. And the only
#
reason Madhu is not considered
#
one of the big, like, you know, Verghese
#
and sab par kitabe likhe, is because she is a woman.
#
you could learn so much from.
#
And because she came from
#
didn't give a shit about consequences.
#
She said, you do your job,
#
I will handle the rest.
#
From V.P Singh bloody threatening us,
#
tape, to all sorts of shit happening.
#
She was, I mean, the way the newsroom changed
#
someday I will maybe write a book.
#
pre-Madhu and India Today post-Madhu.
#
One of the things I have been doing
#
in the last couple of years, is
#
interviewing styles a lot.
#
Part of this is kind of deliberate,
#
just to look at matters of the craft and how
#
people do what they do. And part of it is, whenever
#
I have a guest on my show, I will always
#
watch every other interview of theirs that I can
#
find, just to look for material.
#
And one of the things I noticed was, and
#
Indian interviews, I am incredibly dismayed
#
because people are interrupting all the
#
time, looking for gotcha moments, staying at
#
a very shallow level. And you
#
mentioned Madhu, and I remember
#
her interviews are always so immaculate.
#
In particular, Dinesh Thakur
#
was on my show recently. So while researching
#
for him, I watched Madhu's
#
interview with Dinesh Thakur. And
#
that was the first one where I
#
could just see that, you know, like
#
I take tons of notes for my episodes
#
from the books, which I had already done by the
#
time I watched that video. And she used
#
so many of the same quotes that I was
#
planning to ask him about, and so much of that.
#
So meticulous and well-organized.
#
So it strikes me. And I want to use
#
that to double-click on something that you said
#
earlier, where, perhaps being a
#
bit modest, you said in the 90s that you weren't
#
particularly smart or whatever,
#
but you were a hard worker. And that reminds me of
#
something I read in an interview some
#
20 years ago, and I mentioned this on my
#
show, but I can't figure out whose interview it is.
#
It's a sports person, and it's not Dravid,
#
though it sounds like he would have said it,
#
where the person was asked about talent.
#
And he said, you know what talent is? Talent
#
is not fast-witch muscles or hand-eye
#
coordination or any of those things.
#
Talent is when you've been getting up every day
#
in the morning to run, and one day it's
#
a Sunday, and it's a holiday, and you get up
#
at 6am, and there's a thunderstorm
#
outside, and your body is aching, and you
#
just want to stay in bed, and you still go
#
out and run in the rain. That's talent,
#
right? And one of the lessons that I have
#
learned in my life is that hard work
#
is everything. Everything.
#
You know, I won't put an advance to that.
#
Hard work is the whole game.
#
Like, I remember I used to think in my 20s
#
that, oh, I am so talented,
#
I am meant for big things, and oh, this guy
#
knows nothing, or whatever,
#
you know, in my arrogant way. And of course I
#
wasn't as talented as I thought I was then,
#
but self-delusion kind of helps you stick
#
with the game and fake it till you make it.
#
And through life, I've realised many of the people
#
who had that natural flair
#
for things, for doing things,
#
didn't really get very far.
#
And the guys who got far were the guys
#
who worked hard, regardless of
#
how much natural flair they must have.
#
Like in a cricketing context, I see this with someone
#
like Virat Kohli, where in the under 19
#
years, if you look at him the first time he played
#
the IPL, it was like such a limited player.
#
He can play square of the wicket,
#
he has areas, but so limited.
#
And then I think he went on to become a finest
#
batsman, right? Even if he's better
#
in some formats than others. And it's hard
#
work, it's work ethic, it's purely that.
#
And you've earlier mentioned about, you've described
#
your own work ethic, and at the same time, you've spoken about
#
how young people today feel so entitled
#
that they're not putting in that work,
#
they're not putting in that hours, and that process is
#
so important. Equally, another
#
talk to my writing students about, and try to kind of
#
getting it done is more important than getting
#
it right. There's always a trade-off between these.
#
But the only way to get it right
#
is to get it done again and again and again and again
#
and iteration leads to excellence.
#
Like you've spoken about how you wrote
#
Gusakima for what, 7-8 years.
#
day waking up in the morning. Every fucking
#
has to be funny. And I know 50% of them
#
weren't funny at all. 30% were moderately
#
funny, 20% were really funny. I know that. But
#
you had to get it done. You had to get it done.
#
And chances are that just getting it
#
done meant your funniest ones
#
someone who, you know, just spent 4 years writing
#
one thing. Because that iteration
#
is what makes it good, which makes a lot of good
#
habits reflexive, which eventually over
#
time makes it easy. Tell me
#
a little bit about work ethic. And what you said
#
about Madhu reminded me of that because what
#
I remember from her interview of Dinesh Thakur
#
is that this is so bloody good. You
#
look at all these other jokers and she's put in
#
the work at her age. And Madhu,
#
this is something I used to get
#
really frustrated that this
#
person is ready for an interview.
#
She says, get me his book. I need to read the book.
#
I said, we don't have time to read the book.
#
She said, I'm going to do the interview.
#
He said, he's giving it tomorrow morning.
#
Okay, I'll read the book through the night.
#
She will not do an interview unless she read the book.
#
She'll stay up all night. She'll read the book.
#
About the work ethic, one
#
thing I will agree with you that it is
#
unless it's something like cricket, I
#
can't, what's the word, over
#
access is so important.
#
Of course, I mean, the luck is, luck is
#
a big part of the game. But once you get lucky,
#
Yeah, once you get lucky, it's yeah. I mean, getting
#
a foot in. Even if you are not
#
wealthy yourself, being in a circle
#
where you can get access
#
to an office where you have a chance to
#
prove yourself is extremely
#
important. I'm sure there are
#
thousands out there who are
#
smarter than me, more hardworking than me. They just
#
haven't had the chance. They don't know Madhu.
#
They didn't know Sabrina who took them
#
into Madhu's office. Like, I got to work
#
a camera assistant. I was wrangling
#
cable. But I knew, dude, and
#
that was hard work, dude. Like, you know,
#
I remember the first day of the set, the first
#
scene we were shooting was
#
Naseer at the golf course asking
#
the other guy for money. I don't know if you've seen
#
Monsoon Wedding. It's a lovely film, one of my
#
favourite. And that last scene
#
of that day was PK Dube in
#
Chandni Chowk Jawa Masjid with his
#
mother. And in the middle we had one scene at
#
Habitat. And we were shooting
#
two, three scenes a day. And back in the
#
nine, you know, this was what, 99,
#
Sanjeev and Bhansali would shoot one
#
scene in three, four days.
#
We were shooting three, four scenes in a day.
#
So, it was like really hard
#
work. But I got that chance
#
because Sabrina was writing the film. She said, I'm coming to Delhi.
#
She had just finished her course in Colombia.
#
Meera is making a film. It's a small
#
film. We don't know if it'll get to anything.
#
When you come, you'll get to learn something.
#
I got a chance to work with Meera Nair on
#
Monsoon Wedding. I fucking went
#
to win the Golden Lion at
#
Venice. Yeah, Venice, correct.
#
to the work ethic, let me
#
tell you, I mean, I will say I've been very lucky
#
in life. I have been extremely lucky
#
and extremely fortunate, which is why
#
my default setting is to
#
like people and not dislike them.
#
Because in all my life,
#
people have been good to me for no
#
reason. They had no reason.
#
They had nothing to gain from me. But they
#
have been very good to me. Now,
#
when I was, I was planning to quit
#
aaj tak, because I was like, dude, I can't.
#
So, Nakke Dada called me. He says, Nikku, tum main
#
Bombay jaana hoga. Hum tum cinema karo,
#
tum kuch creative karo, ye karo.
#
Tum main free ke ticket main rahi hai Bombay.
#
My friend Govind was engaged
#
to Meghna Gulzar, which is Gulzar Sahib's daughter.
#
I said, okay, we'll hang out with him for a while.
#
So, I went. I said, Govind, I'm coming there.
#
My salary was 11,000 or 12,000
#
rupees. I'll need to get a PG, but for
#
a few days, can I come and stay with Babuji?
#
He says, yeah, come. So, Babuji
#
is a very large-hearted man. So, imagine
#
struggling, staying at Gulzar
#
Sahib's bungalow on Pali Hill. Of course,
#
when I was outside the bungalow, I was in armpits
#
then ready going to Dada for a
#
But once I was in Pali Hill, then I was
#
that how many people have. So,
#
for whatever two months or whatever with
#
and then when I got there, you know, gave my resignation
#
three-four days. I remember poor Millian said, Nikku,
#
tumne yaha aakhere kya ho gaya? Mereka, 19 mila, that ain't do with you.
#
I was planning to resign, but I thought, chala
#
let's go to Bombay and work there for a month or two, then
#
resign. When I was there
#
and oh, by the way, so I've told the story
#
when Babuji had come for media
#
rumble. So, on my sixth day, I had seen
#
even further in Andheri, I think, maybe
#
a little between Andheri and Jogeshwari, maybe.
#
And back then, the church gate film,
#
the thing used to end at Malad or something and now,
#
apparently, now I went to Bombay.
#
Of course, you don't travel in trains, but just for all
#
time sake, I said, you know, I used to fucking do
#
this every day and it was
#
and for a Delhi kid, it's because here, dude,
#
it was still not as bad. Bombay, the
#
struggle of you don't have to ride metros,
#
then you get out and you stand in line for an auto
#
at bloody Andheri, stand in line,
#
five rupees sharing, Nariman Point was there in the office.
#
So, Bombay was very hard and I
#
I've played sport, you know, throughout
#
my life. So, in Delhi, I used to play at Siri Fort.
#
Bombay, bloody, either you
#
are working or you're apart, there's no
#
I was very unhappy in Bombay and then I went and worked on a
#
film, Filhaal. So, I was there for a year, which
#
I couldn't hack Bombay.
#
I said, Babuji, I've found a place.
#
Thank you so much for your hospitality.
#
You know, he has a deep voice.
#
house with your luggage,
#
As long as you're in Bombay,
#
this is your home. I was like, fuck
#
man. Like, you know, who makes that offer
#
here? I was like, Babuji, that's very kind of you
#
because he lives alone. You know,
#
Rakhi lives in, that time she lives in Khar
#
and Meghna lived with Rakhi.
#
So, he had a bungalow on Pali Hill and Boski's
#
room, which was the room he gave me.
#
I was like, dude, that's very kind
#
of you, but seriously, yeah.
#
He says, two months, six months
#
a year, you want to stay? You're
#
And so, when I was in Bombay,
#
which was, you know, first stint with Aajsak, second stint
#
in the evening, you know, taboos coming for dinner.
#
That time, this guy was making that,
#
Maheboob, mere Maheboob, what was that?
#
Filmfare Kajwa editor, Khalid.
#
Fiza, he was making. He would come because
#
he was writing the lyrics to that.
#
So, you get to just sit and observe,
#
And he told me one day,
#
I was like, Babashek, Rose, and he writes an
#
Urdu, with a book, and I said,
#
what are you working on?
#
Fiza's lyrics are done, songs are recorded.
#
He said, how does it matter what I'm a writer?
#
He says, anything, but I write.
#
He says, too many people are writers,
#
Even Gulzar just writes, and 80%
#
of what he writes is not going to...
#
He has these books, he just writes and reads and
#
writes and reads and writes.
#
He says, if you're a writer, you
#
sit every morning and just write till lunch.
#
Then after lunch, you read.
#
Then in the evening, write some more.
#
And at night, when he's watching, and he
#
has this easy chat, and he watches
#
the TV on mute, and he keeps reading
#
ticker, and he's like, what bullshit
#
did you write? What news is this?
#
And this is before it had gone insane.
#
And then he has a book, he picks up something and writes.
#
to learn from him, I got to learn from Meera,
#
I got to learn from Sabreen, I got to learn from Madhu.
#
I got to learn from the fucking best.
#
even if I was a dumb fuck,
#
you just have access to people
#
who are just the best at their game.
#
And we're all working hard. I mean, that seems to
#
do, that's the common thread. And that is when
#
I realized so many people I know,
#
you know, they'd roll these joints. I'm
#
working on a film, I'm a writer, I'm a filmmaker.
#
We're all 50 years old. His film hasn't been made yet.
#
he didn't learn, boss, you can't
#
be smoking pot for six days and write for one.
#
You fucking write for all seven
#
so, you know, I just got, and then when
#
learn so much. You got, you saw such
#
ridiculous things. You saw the hollowness of
#
a lot of Bollywood. You saw the shallowness of
#
a lot of Bollywood. You got, but
#
you got to see what made
#
In 2002, when we didn't
#
have any work, Prashanth and I, we'd make
#
documentary films which we were making no money
#
the shop was running, we learned something.
#
So there is this guy called Rajendra Singh,
#
he's called the Water Man of India. I don't know if you're familiar with him.
#
I guess I say what. He has a water conference
#
or used to, I don't know if he still does.
#
In his village in Rajasthan
#
So he was setting up something called
#
the Jal Bhagirathi Foundation with
#
Gaj Singh. And if you go to Alwar,
#
he's turned that whole place through water harvesting
#
into like a green belt. Like
#
there's this patch in Rajasthan which is like
#
green. It's not a desert.
#
back in early 2002 was a big name.
#
We said okay. And water was of great
#
interest to us because Sheila Dixit was privatizing
#
the Delhi water supply back then.
#
And I was ideologically opposed to it.
#
So I said let's go to this
#
conference and there I saw Arvind speak.
#
He had just quit his job with IT
#
and I was very impressed with his speech,
#
with his life story. So we met and
#
we spoke and he came back to
#
Delhi, I came back to Delhi. And then Prashanth
#
met him at another water talk in
#
Habitat and he got him back to office.
#
needed films for his RTI work
#
and other, you know, entire
#
editing system and skills.
#
pay you. I said okay, we'll learn something.
#
thing that I tell people.
#
be about money. You will learn something. You will
#
learn something. If you see an opportunity, walk away
#
if you don't think you're learning anything.
#
But it's not always about the money.
#
So then I started doing and Parivartan
#
was like a ten man organization,
#
men, men and women. There was, you know, Santosh was there
#
who unfortunately died before the
#
did a couple of campaigns together, RTI campaigns.
#
And by that time I had started writing
#
Gustakima for NDTV. So I had a kind of
#
holdover media. I knew people in the media
#
because many of my former colleagues were
#
prominent channels in senior places.
#
on RTI. We partnered with
#
like 53 news organizations across the country.
#
Every newspaper. And I remember
#
that time so many people were so forthcoming. You could walk
#
into, HDI walked into Veer's
#
office and I was like, will you be part of it? Yeah, we'll be part of it.
#
N. Ram gave me time. Will you be part of it? Yeah.
#
Pranayak, you know, came on board.
#
Everyone came on board. Yeah, every newspaper
#
came on board. And then he won
#
the magazine in 2004 or 2005.
#
And by then Manish and I had become good friends. And
#
with that money he found PCRF.
#
once the RTI amendments, you know, I
#
spent a night in Tughlaq Road
#
police station because we were protesting in 2006
#
notings and stuff. They will not be there.
#
So, that time I got, I learned
#
so much from Aruna Roy, Shekhar Singh,
#
these guys work. Like, I had seen Gulzar work.
#
a materialistic man. He's not hungry for fame.
#
But he's famous. He takes for granted. When you go out
#
to a restaurant with him, it comes to a standstill.
#
So, I could get that even
#
the humblest of people will write because this
#
from someone like Madhu, you learn
#
you have more than enough money.
#
You're just, you know, working because it
#
excites you. But there's no
#
kuch killat nahi hai life mein.
#
Then you meet people like Arvind
#
and Aruna who are not exactly well to do.
#
But they are working. Like, where will this
#
lead to? Like, what will happen? Like,
#
how will you? Where do you see yourself
#
in 10 years if you ask them?
#
Will your children be able to afford a college?
#
What the fuck are you doing?
#
Then you learn something from people like that.
#
Then he set that up with the Maxis Award money.
#
Then, of course, the whole
#
He was like, okay, RTIs are coming out.
#
The whole sports events,
#
Kalmades event in Delhi, what was it called?
#
The Commonwealth Games.
#
said we've taken out the information that each toilet paper
#
was bought for 180 rupees per roll,
#
which is for like 20 rupees or
#
the balloon was bought for 13 crores
#
which is only going to be used once. There was a lot of corruption
#
But now what? There's no
#
So that is when his frustration led
#
him to, like, Jan Lokpal has to be there.
#
Just getting the information out is not enough.
#
Someone has to use that information to prosecute these guys.
#
And CVC can't do it because CVC
#
whatever department you're in. So CVC
#
doesn't do an investigation. It tells you
#
to appoint a person to investigate your own department.
#
So, that's why conviction rates of corruption
#
So, I learnt a lot about
#
of governance, how he had
#
figured out governance at a level where I hadn't
#
encountered anyone. And I had spoken to a lot of people.
#
Like, in fact, when I was
#
reporting the second election, 99
#
election, I was in Ahmedabad
#
Information Commissioner
#
India Day Correspondent. He's now
#
written that book on, I think, Savarkar.
#
And he's one of Modi's...
#
He's written a book on Modi also, I think. Am I mistaken?
#
No, he must have, because he...
#
So, in fact, he was the India Day Correspondent there.
#
So, he had called me over for lunch and
#
he had told me, he gifted me a book on
#
Savarkar. Back then, he was aghast that I didn't know
#
much about Savarkar. He said, what kind of school
#
is Doon school if you don't even know anything about Savarkar?
#
But back then, we could still
#
sit, have lunch, disagree.
#
We weren't enemies. Today, I don't think,
#
me and Mr. Mahurkar can sit and have that conversation.
#
talking about? That, yeah...
#
the way Arvind had broken down governance
#
was something that I was like, okay, wow.
#
And I really liked him and I found him very
#
sincere and I found his choices
#
very hard. And when he had
#
actually said that we will block
#
the RTI amendments, that's when I
#
realised that this guy has
#
basically are audacity.
#
we were sitting in Sundar Nagri, that's where the Parivartan
#
office used to be. Sundar Nagri is a
#
slum resettlement. India is on
#
Little Room. There he used to work in that slum on
#
RTI and stuff. I think it must have been about
#
2004, it must have been.
#
he got the Magsys award. And he said,
#
that Manmohan Singh is,
#
oh yeah, it had to be 2004
#
passed because Manmohan Singh was PM by now.
#
They're going to be amending the RTI act.
#
File noting will be taken out, you know, certain
#
punitive thing. He says, if they, I mean
#
that's the end of the act and it's taken us so
#
long. There was a lot of lobbying done by, you know,
#
Aruna and everyone to get it through as a
#
national act, although it existed in Delhi
#
and Maharashtra and Rajasthan. As a national
#
act of parliament, it only came once
#
the UPA came in. And I was like, you know, Manmohan and his
#
bureaucrats want to kill this act.
#
He says, we'll block it.
#
He says, we'll stop the amendments.
#
I said, you and like eight of us
#
I'm the only one who's a regular source of income.
#
He says, kyuni kar sakte? Who all do you know?
#
I know this one, I know that one.
#
Chalo, let's talk to Arunaji,
#
let's talk to Prashant, let's do this.
#
Dude, in fucking two months,
#
he had blocked the fucking amendments yaar.
#
And that's when I said,
#
dude, this guy is fucking insane.
#
aim for something so big,
#
which seems impossible.
#
But he will work night and day.
#
He won't go back home. He took a little
#
kholi in Sundarnagri. He used to live in that slum.
#
And I always used to wonder,
#
dude, how does your wife like deal with you yaar?
#
that and I remember, I had written this in Times
#
of India, they had asked me for a column,
#
as someone, as a fellow traveller,
#
when he became Chief Minister for the first time.
#
He asked me once, you want to go for a
#
weekend, you want to come,
#
I'm going to Maharashtra, it's a nice hill station, Mool.
#
I said, okay, chalo, let's see.
#
He wanted to go there, study
#
a lady who had run a, in Maharashtra,
#
she was running a trade union and she had been very
#
effective at getting the tribal
#
lands back from mining that had been given.
#
So, she like, she ran that
#
place like a fucking don.
#
She had, of course, she wasn't doing anything bad
#
but she had managed to retrieve
#
no one in the country had been able to get back from
#
So, we were bloody, and we got there, we stayed in some
#
guest house where there were rats like
#
roaming around me. So, once I was there,
#
I was there. I was like, dude, seriously, you've got
#
me for this, what would, ha ha,
#
okay, have you learned? Cause after
#
that, I never went anywhere with him because it was
#
a nightmare two days. Cause
#
okay, I may not be, you know,
#
the Prince of Wales, but that's not my idea
#
of a holiday, dude. I can't, I can't
#
deal with that shit. So,
#
from her, I learnt a different skill, you know,
#
think that it's too big
#
And I remember, and this is something
#
that many people have, I remember, I've been on
#
panels back then because I was in the face of, you
#
know, PCRF. It had three
#
trustees, Arvind, Manish and me.
#
And whenever Anna would say, we want to come to Delhi,
#
I'm like, dude, who's going to buy
#
the air ticket? There's no money.
#
So, half the time getting
#
donations, you know, cause
#
Arvind and Manish were busy either at Ramle
#
So, I was signing the cheques. I remember someone telling me
#
this has all been funded by
#
XYZ or so and so. I was like, really?
#
Who told you? They are senior journalists.
#
What do you call senior? We know,
#
son, you don't know anything.
#
I was like, I sign the fucking cheques.
#
Like, I mean, I can tell you
#
one lot who gave us a lot of support
#
without them was Sri Sri Ravishankar's
#
team. They were resource
#
rich. They had a team who were wonderful
#
people. I really like them personally.
#
I don't agree with a lot of what Sri Sri does
#
and he's become very different. But
#
all those people were really
#
nice people. I mean, they were really
#
generally sweet. You could say some very
#
horrible offensive things to them. That's it.
#
We don't agree. But they will not hate
#
than his team, there was,
#
you know, it was not funded
#
by any industrialist or RSS or anything.
#
I remember, we used to go around,
#
And throughout, he was like, I don't want to
#
I said, you should contest election because I remember
#
I've been with him in Digvijay Singh's
#
house when we were doing an RT, I think, because
#
of internal, you know, all the yesmen
#
of Manmohan and Sonia want to undercut
#
so and so. So, and Arvind
#
had become a prominent RT activist. He had
#
chances to get, anyone would have given a ticket.
#
He would have won from Zundarnagri hands down.
#
And he used to keep saying,
#
I said, just join politics if you want to, such a
#
kiida. No, no, no, no, no.
#
This is not what we do. And I
#
I mean, I don't know whether I should say this.
#
I had a huge argument with him once that
#
I was like, you want to
#
change? I said, this is, and I
#
remember, and he reasoned it with me. He said,
#
how many RTs have you filed in your life? I said, none.
#
He said, I've filed about 500.
#
Is your one vote every five years more
#
valuable? Is my involvement in democracy more valuable?
#
Holding them accountable. He said,
#
vote, vote kya karna hai, waste of time hai.
#
Now, of course, he wants that vote.
#
change, they evolve, they, you
#
know, you agree, you disagree, but I have
#
meeting people and, you know,
#
some I knew because of who I knew, sometimes
#
learn from people who have
#
you may like them, you may hate them,
#
but they have pulled off
#
shit that is fucking unbelievable.
#
that's a privilege, that is
#
There are people way more talented,
#
hardworking, who just haven't had
#
So I want to double click on a bunch of things here
#
and, like, after the break, we will talk about
#
politics, of course, and we will talk about media,
#
which are the two big themes
#
I want to talk to you about. But before we go
#
into the break, like, an observation
#
and a story. And an observation
#
you've pointed out what is common to all of these guys.
#
Like, you know, Arvind saying
#
that doesn't matter how big the goal is, just
#
start doing it. Or Gulzar Saab,
#
just writing for four hours every day.
#
have often thought that I meet two kinds of writers,
#
you know, and one kind of writer
#
is someone who is in love with the idea of being
#
a writer, ki main writer hu, main award jeetunga,
#
all of those things. And the other kind of
#
writer just wants to write, whether they see
#
themselves as writers necessarily or not.
#
And I have always said that
#
what is important, like, one
#
thought experiment I kind of
#
unleash on my writing students in
#
my last webinar with them, is put a hundred
#
people in a room, and there are a hundred writers,
#
right? And they range from
#
excellent writers to good writers to
#
mediocre to bad to up-india writers, whatever.
#
You've got the whole sort of
#
you've got the whole spectrum.
#
I had to throw that in there. I knew you'd laugh.
#
that whole spectrum of writers out there
#
and you ask them what their goals are
#
and you won't know the difference between them.
#
Because they all have great goals, you know, in Donald Trump's
#
goals are the best. But you ask them what their
#
processes are and you will immediately
#
know who are the great writers and who are the shit
#
writers, because processes matter.
#
Just that notion of Gulzar Sahib entering
#
his writing gym every day, writing four
#
hours every day, which means
#
that when he actually gets a specific
#
thing or when he's actually writing for a specific
#
goal, it is likely to be so, so,
#
so much better than it would otherwise
#
have been, which is inspiring. Another
#
story I want to throw out there, like I agree with everything
#
you said about privilege and luck. You and
#
I, neither of us, would be sitting here if not for having
#
basically won the lottery
#
of life again and again and again.
#
What makes me really hopeful about these
#
I see young creators who
#
are beginning to transcend
#
these barriers of, you know,
#
privilege and luck and all of that.
#
And one person who has impressed me
#
particularly is, have you heard of
#
Mohammed Saleem Khan? No.
#
So Mohammed Saleem Khan is known as MSK
#
and he's a vlogger. I've been watching a lot of
#
vlogs on YouTube and toying with the idea
#
of starting one myself. He was born
#
in a village in West Bengal and
#
his family kind of came to Mumbai
#
when they were very young. And they
#
lived in a chawl somewhere, extremely poor.
#
And he told this story during a talk
#
which I'll also link, but I find
#
it very inspiring. And the
#
opposite of kind of privilege.
#
So he's in this chawl in Mumbai with his family.
#
And when he's 16 or 17, I think
#
when he's in his teens, he,
#
his mother, his siblings, they go back to
#
the village. And then they get a phone call
#
saying, your father's gone mad. So,
#
literally mad. So come back
#
to Mumbai. So they go back to Mumbai and they find
#
that all the belongings in the house are
#
outside the house in that chawl and
#
the father's alone inside the house and
#
take him for treatment and they manage to get him treated.
#
And after he's treated,
#
his mother asks his father, that you
#
remember we used to have this trunk where we had
#
saved up everything that we had
#
over 15 years. All our savings were in there.
#
Do you remember where that trunk is?
#
And he says, so I was in an auto
#
and the guy asked me for
#
change and I didn't have change so I gave him the trunk.
#
everything, right? And this
#
And at this point in time, he
#
decides two things. He says
#
one, I will buy my parents a house in Mumbai.
#
a young teenager, I will have this particular
#
super bike that I would really like to ride.
#
And he does it all. And he does it
#
all by being a creator in today's economy.
#
So he's got a vlog which I link from the show notes.
#
And again, same work ethic, working
#
damn hard. Like one of his vlogging ethics
#
is that everyday kuch nah kuch jaana chahiye.
#
There are days when he's traveling, when he's put out three videos
#
in a day, which is not trivial.
#
You wouldn't know. And he's
#
kind of done that. So that's inspiring.
#
Now that's obviously, it's something
#
that's starting to happen recently.
#
and those things still matter for a hell of a lot.
#
It's people like us who are visible
#
and have the kind of chances that we do.
#
But I just, that's, if there
#
is one thing that kind of makes me hopeful
#
in these sort of dark times,
#
it is that technology is
#
empowering people. Absolutely.
#
There's no doubt. Dude, I'm in court against
#
Someone who had hired me
#
And I remember back then
#
would often be in office. I mean, I guess she was
#
working on something or the other.
#
am up against a company
#
that I could not even think of
#
if AP would walk in, we'd all stand up, you know.
#
Of course. And that's because of the internet.
#
I don't have to buy everybody, you know, three crore license,
#
have a hundred crores to run a
#
newsroom. Of course, there's no doubt about that.
#
Though I still think that
#
what technology has done for
#
is good and bad because
#
this is something one of my favorite comedians
#
has said often in his rant
#
you ask any youngsters today, he was
#
quoting some research that they did
#
in the US, some like insane
#
50-60% people, what do you want to be
#
An influencer. He's like, dude, this generation
#
is fucked. If like over half
#
of them want to be influencers, that is their ambition.
#
We're done. Was it Warhol who came up
#
being famous for being famous?
#
I don't know. I don't know who came up with it.
#
No, I think that was a post-
#
Warhol thing. I think that was
#
one observer about Kardashians.
#
Kardashians, as I've been told. I remember
#
this from before actually, famous for being famous.
#
But whatever, could have been Maklouhan also.
#
So let's take a quick commercial break and on the
#
other side of the break, we shall talk
#
about politics and activism and
#
want to read more? I've put in a lot
#
of work in recent years in building a
#
reading habit. This means that I read
#
more books, but I also read more long
#
form articles and essays. There's a world
#
of knowledge available through the internet,
#
but the problem we all face is, how do
#
we navigate this knowledge? How do we
#
know what to read? How do we put the right
#
incentives in place? Well, I
#
discovered one way. A couple of friends of mine
#
run this awesome company called CTQ
#
Compounds at CTQCompounds.com
#
which aims to help people
#
uplevel themselves by reading more.
#
A few months ago, I signed up for one
#
of their programs called The Daily Reader.
#
Every day for six months, they sent
#
me a long form article to read.
#
The subjects covered went from machine
#
learning to mythology to mental models
#
and marmalade. This helped me build
#
a habit of reading. At the end of every day,
#
I understood the world a little better
#
than I did before. So if you
#
want to build your reading habit,
#
head on over to CTQCompounds and check out
#
their Daily Reader. New batches start
#
every month. They also have a
#
great program called Future Stack
#
which helps you stay up to date with ideas,
#
skills and mental models
#
that will help you stay relevant in the
#
future. Future Stack batches start
#
check out their Social Capital Compound
#
which helps you master social media.
#
What's more, you get a discount of a whopping
#
if you use the discount
#
So head on over to CTQCompounds
#
at CTQCompounds.com and
#
Welcome back to the Scene in the
#
Unseen. I'm chatting with Avinandan Sekri
#
Also, I'm very curious about the activism
#
bit because it seems at
#
one level to be fueled by an idealism
#
that one doesn't always expect
#
from journalists, say, or
#
people who are in the media
#
and so on and so forth. And before
#
we get to the activism per se, I'm
#
conception of journalism.
#
In a sense, you said you were an accidental
#
journalist. You joined New Stack.
#
At what point do you actually
#
start thinking about what
#
is journalism? What is its purpose?
#
Are there any higher ideals
#
involved? I mean, obviously, working with
#
people like the people you worked with
#
makes a difference to that.
#
formulate what is good journalism?
#
What is bad journalism? And
#
where is this good journalism and bad
#
journalism to be defined apart from the
#
See, I often say that I don't
#
call myself a journalist. I have often
#
corrected people at events.
#
I'm introduced as a journalist. I say, I'm not a journalist.
#
Call me a news professional
#
Because the word journalist suggests
#
reporting. For me, that's
#
And I haven't done any reporting in years
#
and years. I mean, I may have done one story
#
for News Laundry, which was
#
more just Googling, figuring out,
#
putting two and two together, and writing
#
at News Track, I did some journalism,
#
yes. During election, you were expected
#
some reading up, ask questions,
#
you know, put some kind of story
#
series in the run-up to
#
I think, there was an election 97?
#
Was there an election 97 or 96? I mean,
#
run-up to that election,
#
we did a series in partnership
#
I think the BBC anchor, her name was
#
she had come down, the producer had
#
come down. So, you know, putting that together, I was part of the production team,
#
although I had a reporter's
#
role, but because I could go
#
nights, I was always said, okay,
#
you put this together. So, I was
#
involved in the production of that.
#
So, for me, good journalism
#
should have the following,
#
a list of things that it
#
should have, it could have more.
#
be vetted and accurate.
#
be a context to the story.
#
It cannot be a standalone story.
#
You must lay the world that the story
#
as far as the information that you are giving to the audience
#
put as many sides of the
#
story, of the facts. I am not saying it has
#
to be monkey balancing, but
#
you cannot say that this one is
#
corrupt. You have to have, and this is something that we
#
believe, you know, a lot of activist organizations
#
have wanted to partner with News Laundry to
#
they mean well, but they send us a
#
report, a video report, where five people
#
have accused the SDM of corruption.
#
I said, have you asked the SDM? No.
#
Have you sent an email?
#
No. Can you? Only day after
#
tomorrow because it is so far from the village.
#
There is a lot of grassroots
#
organizations and their
#
correspondents are just the village folk.
#
They cannot go 40 kilometers tomorrow to get
#
want to work with them.
#
But journalistically, that is not a story
#
I can put out, no matter how much
#
I agree with them and their cause.
#
Because you have got to ask the guy, are there any other
#
sides to it? It has to be
#
The choice of story has to be
#
some purpose to the choice of story. Can't be
#
kuch bhi. I mean, it may
#
have these things, but it's not, it's not. So,
#
that is good journalism.
#
when do you strew story about what?
#
Now, if today someone has to ask me,
#
because of namaz, a story
#
or not? Yeah, it's a story.
#
Is it the story that I should today? No.
#
And it is not because you want
#
to hide one thing. Is the story
#
corruption? Let's say I get one more,
#
Kalmadi corruption has been done. So, you get one
#
That this also happened. I said,
#
it is journalism, but it's not good journalism.
#
Is that relevant today?
#
journalist, when you say it's the first draft
#
of history, the cliché,
#
to be fuelled by a sense of wanting
#
why someone does something is
#
going to be very vague and very broad.
#
and I'm not saying there's no room for
#
that other kind of journalism. I just do it because I'm
#
good at it, I'm smart, I have access
#
maybe newslaundry is not the place for you.
#
consider good journalism is
#
you are doing it from a sense of curiosity
#
because you want to make things better.
#
is, to me, more or less
#
It can have other stuff, but it should have
#
these things for sure. So, you know, we'll come to politics
#
later, because now that we started talking
#
about journalism, and I thought we'll go from
#
sort of where that idealism developed
#
to activism, and that seemed like a natural segue.
#
But let's talk about the media for a while
#
and we'll come back to politics.
#
And I'll push back mildly on a couple
#
of these things, because I think this
#
conception of journalism that
#
you kind of spoke about is relatively
#
recent. You could even say that it started
#
say with Walter Lippmann's book Public Opinion
#
and all of that, and gradually evolved over
#
a period of time from there. And I'm
#
not saying that any of these are wrong, I'm just
#
saying that there are added shades I'd like to
#
kind of talk about. For example,
#
one way in which the media certainly changed,
#
say from when you would have started
#
with Newstract to today, is that
#
back then there was a broad consensus
#
on the truth. There was something called
#
mainstream media, which was basically mainstream,
#
which was all of the game. There was
#
a broad consensus on the truth.
#
You know, there might have been slight
#
ideological shades here and there
#
with different major publications, you know, the Hindu
#
will be a little left and so on.
#
But in general, there was a broad consensus,
#
ki duniya aisi hai. And that's because
#
had the tools of publishing, the tools of
#
distribution, all of those things.
#
Now what's happened over the last
#
few decades is that that has
#
kind of, obviously by now, changed completely
#
and everything is dispersed.
#
And of course there are good and bad
#
sides to that. The good part obviously
#
is that everyone is kind of empowered
#
and anyone can, you know,
#
add their voice to that mix, like indeed news
#
laundry have done and you're fighting India today.
#
And the bad part of course is that
#
everything seems to be a narrative battle
#
today. There are people for whom reality
#
just doesn't matter. It's, you know, you build
#
your narrative of the world, you choose
#
your tribe and whatever fits that
#
works for you and that's a story
#
you want to hear. So I might consider
#
news laundry to be a journalistic outlet
#
and OpIndia to be not a journalistic outlet
#
but in a sense they are fulfilling
#
similar functions at opposite ends
#
where people have similar views of the world
#
and you might be feeding that view of the world with
#
facts and figures and all of that. My
#
broader question was that, you know, when you
#
speak about you've been sent a story from a village
#
and your point is, listen, you haven't
#
done the rigor. You know, you haven't
#
gone to the SDM and asked
#
him what he thinks of the allegations. And
#
the way I look at it is when it comes
#
to sort of information,
#
there are many parts to the puzzle.
#
You want to put together as complete
#
a picture as you can but you'll never get the whole picture.
#
Yeah, there's no gods there. Yeah. And then
#
there are other people who cannot
#
put together as complete a picture as you
#
but as long as they give some parts of the picture
#
I actually think that is legit
#
and I don't even know whether I'd call it
#
journalism. It's not journalism but it is still
#
legit and to think of the term
#
journalism as a monolithic
#
thing. So I'm kind of rambling
#
and thinking aloud but I'm saying that
#
like one of the things that I have
#
that, you know, there are many things
#
I used to think of in a particular way
#
conceptually and I've realised that
#
I need to rethink them. I need to rethink
#
what this means. I need to rethink what a book
#
is. Does a book have to be a hundred thousand
#
words? Like earlier in the nineties
#
we are restricted by the formats. An article is
#
eight hundred words. A book is a hundred thousand.
#
You know, a Hollywood film is ninety minutes.
#
A Bollywood film is three hours. And
#
over time I've realised that especially
#
in the modern age these
#
concepts have kind of broken down for me.
#
And similarly when we define
#
journalism in a kind of
#
a rigid way and I understand that you're defining
#
it in this particular way because there's a certain
#
kind of rigor you want and you've defined
#
that as New Laundry's mission and that's great
#
and that's as it should be. But
#
I think that there has to be
#
space for all of this stuff
#
I don't disagree with you. I think that
#
also journalism and a kind of journalism
#
that fulfils a certain...
#
I'm not overwhelmingly in agreement
#
but I'm not in disagreement either. I think it's an interesting
#
there's space for that thought to be entertained
#
and maybe explored and investigated
#
But yeah, it seems like a rational position to have.
#
What I disagree with you is that Open India
#
and New Laundry are two sides of a coin.
#
Open India has no ground reporting.
#
They have outright fabricated lies.
#
I don't, by the way, just to
#
clarify, I don't mean two sides of the same coin
#
in a journalistic sense because they're not journalists.
#
Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying.
#
I mean in a narrative sense. Yeah, so we
#
reports. Now that ground report could lead anywhere.
#
be the face of New Laundry
#
and I'm identified as liberal
#
ideologically as committed as you might
#
many of them are not ideologically committed
#
which is why I like them. They do not think
#
this side is right or that side is right because
#
A, they're young so they still have that
#
doubt. I mean, I have some fantastic
#
this is what is on the ground. Now, one may
#
choose to say that we are
#
exploring stories that tend to be more
#
against the BJP. Therefore,
#
subscribe to the liberal narrative. But that is because
#
the BJP is in power and in
#
2012 when we started, the congresses
#
are punching back and anyone can go to 2012 and
#
what we do is reportage. It is
#
journalism. What OpIndia does is
#
not journalism. So, I mean, and I don't want to give them
#
any more, you know, time
#
mentions because I think it's a
#
really wild gutter level thing. And
#
just because, you know,
#
that is not enough for me to
#
take someone like that seriously
#
from a perspective of the craft,
#
from a perspective of society decay, just like
#
it's important to take Narnab seriously, it's important to take
#
Measles seriously, it's important to take
#
Covid seriously, it's important to take OpIndia seriously
#
which needs to be addressed.
#
But if you're talking about the craft, that is
#
that is one important thing. And
#
entire flirtation with activism
#
deep sense of injustice that
#
And I think that is why I
#
I think, you know, this guy
#
taking on someone who needs
#
to be taken on. You know,
#
for a while, I voted Mayawati.
#
Now, I was at that time, you know,
#
at which election was this when
#
I mean, of course, you didn't win a single seat in Delhi,
#
was that friends of mine, and you know,
#
good friends we'd be, you know, at
#
dinners and parties and you know, the Delhi scene
#
and you belong to a certain privilege
#
set and so you have active social
#
BJP wasn't fashionable then,
#
Congress ko degenge vote, ya yeh karenge,
#
wo karenge. Thika thoda kuch
#
BJP ko degenge kuch. It wasn't as
#
polarized as it is now. But when I'd say
#
mayawati ki party, they'd be
#
pin drop silence, hain?
#
I was like, why not? You know how corrupt
#
she is? I was like, you know how corrupt many of your
#
congress leaders are? Just because they're doskos, it's fine.
#
Ki kayon ki bete hain, humara saathi baith hota the.
#
And what I realized was mayawati's
#
was a special kind of corruption
#
that needed to be pointed out, while others was
#
about corruption. It was about belonging
#
to, so I think it may stem from, and I'm
#
just maybe dissecting myself, although
#
I haven't really done any major introspection
#
and seen where this comes from. Maybe
#
know, in the privilege set, I was
#
not as privileged as previous, so
#
you know, that thing that
#
always root for the underdog.
#
that I grew up with, you know, a set of
#
parents who I didn't see them do anything wrong in their lives.
#
Like, fucking nothing, like
#
like sometimes my dude kuch do karlate
#
yaar, yeh koi bangla bangla
#
chhor de, like nothing.
#
You know, get screwed over by
#
people who were corrupt and, you know,
#
I think, like, there was
#
no reason for us to start news laundry. Small
#
Stream was doing very well.
#
had, like I said, shows, ads,
#
we were doing everything, man.
#
Sarkari programs, private
#
programs, award-winning ads.
#
We were the game in town.
#
keeda tha, yaar. News laundry chalo karna hai.
#
And I remember my partner saying it, yaar.
#
Dude, fine, theek hai, you had your
#
little fun, don't fucking fuck up
#
I mean, now you're gonna go separate, we need to
#
put so much more money in it.
#
VC funding will come in, we need to separate offices,
#
we need to do compliance, we need to do all this.
#
Fuck it, let's just make travel shows, food
#
shows and make money and, you know.
#
get up every morning, I get up fucking excited
#
yaar. I'm trying to get
#
to office, let's fucking pick another fight
#
And that is very addictive for me.
#
I don't care if I am driving
#
into my friend's farmhouse
#
in any case which I think
#
is a very luxurious gadi which costs 15 lakh
#
where everybody's gadi's are 1 crore and above.
#
I don't give a fuck. I don't
#
give a fuck, I'm wearing track pants and chappals.
#
But when I wake up every morning, I am
#
excited, I am saying, let's pick
#
a fight today. And that
#
to me was something that
#
attracted me to Arvind, that's something that
#
So, yaar, I think that is the basic
#
Kida and as long as that Kida is there, I guess
#
I'll be excited by what I do.
#
I mean, I loved, by the way
#
we have, we probably won't discuss it because it's not
#
of any interest to you.
#
Shooting Highway on a Plate was
#
Like, 7 years to travel across
#
this country by road. Like, how many
#
people do you know who can say I have travelled
#
to every state in this country?
#
with, you know, 3 of my closest
#
friends, Rokey, Meer, Prashanth. Like
#
fucking in a car, lade,
#
each other's eye. Because you're not even on the road
#
when you drive from Delhi to Kolkata,
#
Nagaland, you know, you're going to get on each other's
#
man, what one learns about patience,
#
about not holding grudges, about
#
letting it fly when you have to, about
#
end of the world. It is
#
it is just something you deal with and move on.
#
Okay, so I am going to defy
#
your expectations and talk a bit more about that
#
but in a bit, just to kind of
#
continue with the thought.
#
First of all, when you were musing about, you know, why did
#
I support Mayawati? Was it because I was less privileged
#
than them? I think sometimes your privilege
#
is not always a causation
#
for the way you behave. I think, you
#
know, people can have opinions
#
independent of where they come from, though obviously
#
So, here's my question.
#
journalism as having this sacred ground
#
that these are the values and you've named
#
some values of the craft, that this is a rigor
#
you should show. But, you know,
#
often all those cliches will come up about
#
how you comfort the afflicted, afflict the
#
comfortable and all of that, which mean a lot
#
to me as well. And at the same time,
#
it's a business. So, you know,
#
a publisher will tell you, bhai, main charity
#
nahi kar raha ho, profit banana hai,
#
that is my dharma. And I get that
#
completely, that is completely rational.
#
Now, one way of looking at it
#
and I strongly feel that it is true
#
is that even for the kind of news
#
what journalism should be, that there is a market
#
that market will pay and we'll come to that later
#
about how, you know, the implications
#
of that model and how I believe it can work
#
and I think it's working for you to some extent.
#
But, here's a thought experiment.
#
was not there. Supposing the whole
#
country was full of people who
#
don't care about that kind
#
of journalism, they just want narratives.
#
And by the way, I have to
#
say again, I'm sorry, it seems like, it
#
almost seems like, you know, I implied
#
an equivalence between you guys and Op India.
#
I was just speaking in the narrative
#
sense, you know, what I think about them.
#
So, in a thought experiment,
#
that there is no market at all for this. And I don't believe
#
that to be the case, I'm hopeful that there is a market
#
for the kind of work you do.
#
But assuming that there is no market
#
for it at all, my sense is that
#
you would do it anyway. That there are
#
people who would do it anyway. There would be
#
a handful of people, but they'd get the job done
#
anyway. Which makes it a little
#
project. You know, it's
#
like saying that this is my dharma to
#
do this and I will do this
#
and even if there's no one reading it and no one wanting
#
it, I still kind of have to
#
do it. How much do you see yourself
#
fundamentally an activist even
#
now? Like, I kind of, in my mind,
#
when I was thinking about it, I broke it up into
#
two. That it has activism
#
and these are the things we'll talk about.
#
About its media, these are the things we'll
#
talk about. But during this conversation
#
it strikes me that they're actually the same thing.
#
That you are an activist for a
#
you know, what is your sense of this?
#
Now, you know, this term activist
#
is something that I never described myself
#
was described as one in one of these
#
Janlok Palnoomur. I'm like,
#
dude, I'm not an activist. I'm
#
a film producer. I mean, a
#
TV show producer, a filmmaker, a documentary
#
filmmaker. I'm not an activist.
#
Because for me, it was never
#
a full time thing. It was something like, for example
#
dharma against amendments.
#
I had worked with Meghna on a
#
and the hero of that was Palash Sen. He's
#
the lead singer of Euphoria. So I had become friends
#
with Palash at that time. So
#
I told Ardham, I know Palash.
#
So I told Palash, he'll sing here.
#
All the college students will come.
#
So, Palash came with Euphoria and he
#
and you know, this charging up everybody.
#
And he didn't know, head or tail
#
of RTI. He came because
#
Nikku is saying, friend, he must be right.
#
He's an honest guy. I'll go there. I remember
#
he said, shake it. It's not far from here.
#
Parliament House. Shake it.
#
Sonia Gandhi is listening.
#
We have to calm down. We're not picking a fight
#
with Sonia Gandhi right now. Because she's the only
#
hope of RTI. Because Manmohan was killing it, she was
#
So, is Palash an activist?
#
this is I think where it comes from while growing
#
that much. That's still my expectation
#
should do whatever we can
#
things better. Like the Chartered
#
this Chartered Accountant is a nightmare. Because
#
we would get some grant from something from something
#
and because the government is always scrutinizing you.
#
He was working for us for free.
#
You know, if anyone need to be
#
represented, God Prashanthji was doing it
#
Prashanth comes from a privileged family, but there
#
So, whenever you say he's an activist,
#
so I would always think and I've thought this
#
through. This is not I'm just nothing allowed because
#
this question I've thought it through.
#
I don't see myself as an activist.
#
I don't see Prashanth as an activist.
#
I don't see Aruna as an activist.
#
I don't see Nikhil Dey as an activist.
#
something that they enjoy
#
while holding the system
#
possible to be honestly
#
And in making it accountable, it is
#
taking a disproportionate time for them to
#
what is Arunaji's mission?
#
To run Barefoot College, to run a basically
#
place where people who don't
#
have skills, have access, do
#
better off than they are.
#
Now, in so doing, bloody she has to do
#
what do I want to do? I want to create
#
news platform that takes no ads.
#
fighting Kalipuri in court.
#
I don't be fighting Bloody Times in court.
#
But I am fighting both of them.
#
I don't want to be fighting Saqal in court, but I am doing that.
#
I don't want to be dealing
#
with IT raids in my office.
#
But I am dealing with that.
#
And coming at 11.30, bloody keeping me there
#
sitting at 1 o'clock, answering questions which have no
#
So does that make me an activist? No.
#
I want to do my job, which
#
in the way, I will fight you.
#
And I think that is what Prashanth does.
#
That is what Aravind used to do.
#
That is what Arunaji does. That is
#
That is what, you know, I am guessing everyone
#
who calls themselves activists do.
#
They are doing what they think is
#
them, gives them satisfaction and gives them
#
two meals a day or whatever their aspirations
#
are. And if you get in the way,
#
In a certain way, for some people activist has almost
#
become a bad word. But I was just
#
kind of thinking in a different kind
#
of semantic sense and thinking, maybe even your
#
journalism is a kind of activism.
#
I don't think it is a bad word. I don't find the word
#
bad or anything. It is just that it doesn't
#
I have always wondered, like
#
when someone calls me, and now senior journalist,
#
entrepreneur. I am trying to
#
create a model, which I was told
#
is impossible, but I was convinced of.
#
And I am fucking thrilled that, you know,
#
and what you are saying that, if there was not a
#
single reader, you are right, I would still do this.
#
I would convince them one at a time. I would come to your show
#
and convince you. Then I would convince them.
#
I mean, let the investors go.
#
News supported by subscribers.
#
Everything is going on through ads. CPI
#
was then, it was 300-400 CPI.
#
What is CPI today? 15 rupees?
#
12 rupees? Those clicks
#
per index, YouTube pre-roll, post-roll ads.
#
It's not even one-tenth of what it used to be
#
in 2012 when we started.
#
And we started in 2012 because I was busy shooting
#
having a plan and my mother used to get very irritated.
#
She says, you are never in Delhi. When are you going to start this?
#
Otherwise you would have started in 2011.
#
Not only were the investors
#
completely unconvinced that you can have
#
a model like this, friends of mine,
#
who meant well, who meant well for me, they said,
#
Nikku, we want you to do well. You do well. You progress.
#
But this is a very bad idea of yours.
#
Nothing is going to happen.
#
I convinced 10 people first.
#
Okay, we were friends. Please subscribe.
#
100 rupees per month. Clicking like this.
#
Today how many? We probably have 12-15 thousand
#
paying subscribers. We can say
#
we are sustainable without any
#
advertisers. We don't need ads. I don't
#
Kejri, you know, his ads
#
are cheap. He gives ads to Arnav also.
#
I mean, all the stuff that we make fun of others,
#
I mean, I understand he's doing politics. His ads are
#
apparently, my friend Sujit Nair,
#
our ads are appearing in Maharashtra
#
papers and go like Delhi government ads.
#
if you want to run with ads,
#
just if you wanted to earn money,
#
there was no shortage of opportunities.
#
we gave three doses, now we are in Tihar.
#
people print a lot of money here.
#
And I know how they print.
#
That was not the purpose.
#
So, we have grown it from
#
zero subscribers to these many subscribers,
#
convincing them 10 at a time, 12 at a time, 15 at a time.
#
I'll probably shamelessly plug it on your
#
show also. You must try.
#
In fact, for your readers, we'll give a
#
discount and we'll figure
#
something out right now. But, see,
#
Amit, whatever I have done, I have
#
done by instinct. And that is when
#
doing a news track. I had just
#
taken my final year exam and I haven't got my
#
result. I am not highly educated.
#
I am a BA pass. Economics, Honours, that's a
#
good course to do. I am also just a BA pass.
#
So, you know, many of the
#
kids who work for me have done something from
#
Amsterdam University. Someone has done something in Oxford.
#
I'll be my editor. Maharaj is in
#
Oxford on some... That's why they tell you how
#
to run a business. You don't listen.
#
I have done things by instinct. Like, when I
#
went to Ajtak, me and Prashanth
#
had no idea what the f**k we're going to do.
#
And like I said, that served out to them. When you turn on the TV
#
laddoos are sitting and
#
reading the news and you're holding your head,
#
this guy is like there and we are
#
bloody struggling like suthiyas f**king
#
railway stations, getting a tape, shooting ourselves,
#
editing. And I can shoot, I can
#
edit, I can wrangle cable, which I have done.
#
I have never been ashamed to take a
#
job, whether it was to pick up tea or whether to
#
wrangle cable. And I remember Naseer
#
sir was such a gentleman, when we were
#
on the set of Monsoon Wedding
#
and a lot of the kids there who were working were friends
#
of Meera's friends, kids
#
or, you know, other privileged kids.
#
There were very few kids who were really
#
you know, assistant material.
#
Most of them were rich kids
#
having a nice September,
#
you know, Meera's shooting of film as well.
#
came. I mean, the most well-known cast member was Naseer
#
and they said, yeah, Nimupani Lani. So, you had
#
the spot boys. That spot boys hadn't come very early
#
in the morning. So, I had
#
no problem getting, picking up Nimupani and getting
#
them. And I remember the scene where they said,
#
He says, no, you don't have to serve us tea
#
and coffee on a tray. You're not a spot boy.
#
I said, I don't fucking care. Let's just
#
So, like wrangling cable, I was
#
24 at that time. Some of the other
#
productions were 21, 22. And a small
#
scene had been set up. Chadar had been
#
made and I'd had won an award in San Francisco.
#
And I was wrangling cable.
#
I don't have a problem with it.
#
Kida is what, you know,
#
like I said, you know, everyone says it's a shit idea.
#
So, everything is by instinct.
#
When we quick news track,
#
let's do something. We'll do a travel
#
show. Okay, one document is left.
#
a lot of people are very surprised
#
know me otherwise that, you know, my
#
in God and I pray every day. And that is
#
something a lot of people who know me can't
#
what the fuck? Like you
#
who's rational, who's scientific, who has a
#
evidence-based approach.
#
things that have happened to me
#
there has to be some other
#
in 99, you're quitting a job
#
travel shows when there is no fucking
#
market for travel shows. It doesn't
#
exist. There are four channels.
#
Cable TV has just come in.
#
There used to be only one when you started.
#
years later, you have the fucking biggest travel show
#
in the country. Like what explains that?
#
We'll do news laundry. Friends
#
telling you, no, you'll drown, both companies
#
will drown, you'll drown yourself.
#
We are sufficient, self-sufficient.
#
We don't need anyone's fucking funding. We have
#
subscribers. What explains that?
#
being that is watching over. Now
#
if you ask me why the fuck is he letting others starve, I'm sorry
#
I don't have those answers. But someone
#
has been very good to me.
#
And I can't explain why.
#
So I'll link a column in the show notes
#
I've written just about how we underestimate
#
luck in the sense that just the fact
#
that we are born at all is really a few trillion
#
to one. And I actually try to calculate the numbers
#
and all of that. So you'd imagine that
#
it's just incredibly unlikely
#
that we should even exist. But the point is
#
it is inevitable that some things will exist.
#
Similarly, it is inevitable
#
that some people will get very lucky.
#
Like even I feel I got extremely lucky in the sense
#
for five years ago, if I were to
#
pitch to anyone ki yaar, main chaar gante ki
#
podcast karunga, chaar gante logo se
#
audio mein baat karunga, I would have
#
been kicked out of the room, right? But luckily
#
in these times I could just do it and it
#
can work. So I think some people
#
inevitably get lucky. So I don't think
#
that's necessarily evidence of a higher
#
force. In fact, mathematics indicates that
#
there will be some people who are extremely lucky.
#
And it just happens to be you and me sitting here.
#
But regardless of that, and I'll kind of get back
#
to that. And by the way, Monsoon Wedding, I would have carried
#
cables for that as well because that's one of
#
my two favourite Indian films
#
of that decade along with Luck by Chance.
#
I think they're just both
#
incredible. And the stories I have from that
#
insane. That film got made as a
#
miracle. Yeah, so you know
#
Monsoon Wedding being such a dear film to me.
#
I'd love to hear your stories from there.
#
not part of the script,
#
but he had fractured his hand. So I had to
#
be woven into the script.
#
It's not always sexism, but it's
#
tell me what you make out. What will you call
#
this? Now the camera department,
#
the cameraman was Declan Quinn. He had shot
#
Casino and he was one of the top 10 cinematographers
#
in the world. So I was so thrilled that
#
I'm carrying the camera because he was in his late
#
You know, he's in Monsoon Wedding, he's all on the shoulder.
#
So I was wrangling cable with him and as soon as
#
I was to take the camera from him. It was an airy
#
film, you know, learning how to change the
#
Because it's hard on the shoulder,
#
so you know, long shots when
#
Vasundhara's name. When she's running out,
#
he had to run, you have to
#
make sure it doesn't trip over. He wasn't a
#
So now, the entire camera
#
department was, you know, there was this
#
other than a few of us, the entire crew had come from
#
overseas. Now we're going there,
#
you know, a crew from New York
#
September in Delhi, humidity,
#
we're wearing short pants, banyan,
#
you know, a little vest.
#
Okay, we have to go to Chandni Chowk and shoot
#
so you guys get the audio locked down, it will sync
#
sound and get all the production
#
and the location ready.
#
So now we're telling these ladies
#
to tell them that Chandni Chowk
#
if you want to go shoot, don't come dressed like
#
this. Because we were in charge
#
of security and it wasn't
#
you know, now of course it is very scary
#
things are for security but that time it was
#
it's not like we had like
#
bouncers and all. It was assumed that
#
Nikku, Ruman, Manav, you guys do the security
#
just make sure the crowd is away.
#
Now we're saying that now
#
if we say that, you know, don't
#
come to Chandni Chowk, we'll sound like those
#
Abbas beta aise kabde pehenke jaate kahi
#
we say boss, we have to control security
#
aur kuch hogaya hum pit pita jaayenge waha
#
hum teen machudu se kya
#
what will we control the crowd if
#
these five white girls are coming in their
#
who do you tell that? Can we dress
#
little conservatively when you
#
go to shoot in Chandni Chowk? Can you not expect us
#
to do the security or let us be home?
#
Amara bhi phir face saving nahi hoga
#
You know, I remember this was a very interesting
#
conversation that happened and then
#
there was this one scene if you remember
#
the guy who is the anchor
#
making out of the Sundhara
#
actually was not in a car, that whole
#
scene was in Jamali Kamali
#
fogged when they went to New York
#
they went through the X-ray. So the first
#
shoot was run at Jamali Kamali
#
in one of those old tombs. Now in Delhi to
#
shoot you have to get like hundreds of
#
permission iski uski. So
#
police permission and that was about it
#
now you had to do that scene
#
and Meera said and it was
#
sync sound so you couldn't have, it wasn't dubbed
#
and that time sync sound was very new
#
in charge of the audio lockdown just making
#
sure the set is quiet, wrangling cable
#
landed up. They said bus do gante hoga hai, nikklo you
#
have to get out and the scene wasn't done
#
so Meera's instructions to us, so you do what
#
you can, I have to finish
#
the scene. So first you try to
#
talk to the cops outside and tell them
#
to talk quietly, you know pretend that you are just talking
#
to them while she finishes the scene
#
then you keep talking to them then they start
#
getting in then at one stage
#
I was physically holding a cop back
#
from going into the scene
#
and he said tu ne chui kaise meri
#
vardi, tere himmat kaise hoi
#
I was like fuck I'm gonna get beaten up here
#
and it's like later and we had gone to 12
#
12 1 and next morning you had to get to the location
#
like no other, I mean it was
#
scene, this thing scene in fact if you
#
see and I've also posted this
#
on twitter, the party scene
#
chunni chunni when Neha's dancing
#
I'm ordering bakadi at the bar
#
because there was no budget for
#
so whoever is not required immediately
#
imperatively for this shot
#
go to wardrobe, put on a pair of shadi clothes
#
and come stand in the crowd as guests
#
so all those guests were madhus, you know that old lady
#
that's sorry Meera's mother
#
they're friends of hers from defence colony
#
so of course all of us who could be spared
#
for like 5 minute shots went, wore
#
shadi clothes from the wardrobe, came
#
bakadi and started doing stuff like that
#
so now I freeze that scene
#
you know the young girl who
#
which is played by Vora
#
at the bar talking to someone
#
so I'm at the back ordering
#
one bakadi coke please that was my line
#
and then you're trying to sip as long as you can hoping that
#
so that we get a breather because otherwise it was hard work
#
it was a trip man, it was just
#
a wonderful wonderful experience, I learnt so much
#
I'm also curious about you know
#
this is media but at the same time it seems
#
very different from everything else that you're doing
#
did you want to be a film maker? I mean I know you've made
#
many documentaries and done a lot of that
#
but did you also at some point say that
#
okay these are the kind of movies I want to make
#
I have 4 scripts written
#
and sitting at my table for the
#
I wrote my first script in
#
2002 when I was working on
#
the whole experience of filmmaking
#
most of our time used to be spent waiting for either
#
Sushmita or some star to show up
#
disagreed a lot with people
#
that oh Bombay is very professional, Delhi is not professional
#
Bombay is very professional, Delhi is not professional
#
I was like dude I've just come from a set in Delhi
#
where we shot a film in 26 days
#
and I was a foreign crew there, this is completely different
#
I was like dude here I'm spending 4 hours a day
#
just waiting for a star to show up
#
what are you talking about
#
what are you even talking about
#
so that is something I didn't agree with
#
I've written a piece on this also on one of my earlier
#
just the whole experience and you know our producer Jhamu Sugand
#
I don't know if you remember
#
there was that Bharat Shah
#
that whole that he was laundering money
#
so Jhamu Sugand was the guy who
#
produced Hum Dil Dechi Ke Sanam he became very big after that
#
and he produced a whole bunch of films
#
so there was some enquiry on him
#
Bollywood lingo you have to call him Jhamu Ji
#
whether the 5th schedule will happen or not
#
I was finding it bizarre
#
you will not be hanging with the stars
#
because I was Meghna's friend
#
and she was a director so
#
places where the AD did not really belong
#
would go like Sushmita's birthday bash or you know
#
because when you are shooting a film for that duration
#
it's just those people who
#
are your life and which is
#
what I find very strange which is why I have a thesis
#
in showbiz in Bollywood
#
we would call normal emotionally
#
that is their normal but
#
in our world that would be an unhinged
#
unequilibrium place because
#
you work with such intense proximity
#
with the crew for like a long time
#
jhagda, ladai everything with those people
#
then you move on to another crew
#
and you might not see these people ever again
#
or you might not see them even 3 years
#
like even some of the people who I meet from
#
you know monsoon wedding today
#
it's been what it's been 20 years
#
chuddy buddies we are not
#
together for 3 months 3 intense
#
months when you were on set for 16, 14,
#
15, 12 hours so you were
#
like sadowing together, bitching
#
people out together, laughing together
#
so you get very intense bonds that's why a lot of
#
affairs happen on film sets
#
because that is your life
#
like normally if you have a birthday party
#
or I have a birthday party the 20 people there
#
will be my close friends
#
if I am having a bigger party then the peripheral
#
circle then the further
#
circle if you are having a grand party
#
but if you have a party of 20 people
#
now I used to feel very strange there
#
there are 20 people in this party
#
I am also a chuddi buddy
#
now don't take me or give me
#
and that too is a chuddi buddy
#
that my Bollywood when you are on a project
#
your friend is shooting for some other project
#
in Thailand or Australia or Malaysia
#
because if all your friends
#
they don't fit in with this world
#
they are not from Mumbai
#
showbiz you have to be a little unhinged
#
to have an emotional kind of to make sense of your
#
world because your closest friends are
#
so many such experiences I said
#
so while I was there I had so much time
#
I started writing a film
#
and I wrote it then I wrote another film this is about
#
voting and elections because I saw news
#
is such a ridiculous space
#
so I have got 4 scripts ready
#
you want to do too much in life I want to do that also
#
I want to do activism I want to do news laundry also
#
so maybe in another 3-4 years when
#
someone else can take over a sea of
#
news laundry and run it
#
crowdfunding kar lo abhi aajayenge
#
I think maybe another year it will be
#
stable enough to just run
#
systems will completely be in place but
#
yeah I absolutely want to make
#
being on a film set is a magical experience
#
if you have been on a film set man
#
it's addictive and I can see why people
#
wanting to make it and spend their lives
#
drugs, alcoholism, attempts suicide but they
#
let me give up and go back and do something else
#
if you make it you fucking make it man
#
the energy like I remember
#
and also the bitching I remember you know this is one
#
scene I will never forget
#
those days Devdas was shooting
#
so there was an accident and at that time
#
bunch of films were being made there was this
#
just this small dream with
#
4-5 film sets were having lunch together
#
at least us lower down people would do lunch
#
in the lawn together with the light men, shite men etc
#
this olive was a new place
#
went there at the end of the shoot
#
people at my level didn't but because I was
#
friend who was good wherever she was invited
#
so I would also go there
#
so we were there and I don't know
#
whether we were celebrating
#
it was of course stars there was
#
you know Phil Hulfe there were stars
#
of other films sitting left
#
right and there had been
#
an accident on Sanjay Leel Bhansali
#
set where one of those storm
#
fans had fallen and had killed
#
one of the light men or the set
#
spot boys. Do you remember this at all?
#
I don't remember this at all. But if you google it there was
#
a death on Sanjay Leel Bhansali set and then
#
Devdas's shooting stopped
#
whether it would start or not
#
now that is when I realised that
#
no one is anyone's friend
#
bitching out that this film
#
and every table was talking about that
#
because I was a fly on the wall
#
no one wanted to talk to Saidi Ad
#
so I was just there because I was
#
I would go hang out near this table
#
hang out near that table
#
everyone talking about the same thing because it's a very small
#
it's like if you think the news world is incestuous
#
everyone talking about each other navel gazing
#
that was rotten, that fell
#
I found it very fascinating
#
I looked there a little bit and I saw Charu comes in
#
in his typical style half his shirt
#
tucked in half out looking very tired
#
in his shoes type and jeans
#
like they are doing a baraatiyon ka swaghat
#
hey Charu how are you man
#
everything ok oh man love you
#
I was like fuckers you were all
#
bitching him out in front of me 5 minutes ago
#
have you no shame I can see you still
#
but dude that's the fucking world
#
and I have given you one instance
#
there were just so many instances I saw that
#
no one is anyone's enemy
#
no one is anyone's friend
#
for the period of your film
#
emotionally that puts you
#
in a state of relationships
#
when I commit to someone
#
of course a single guy at 47 saying this but I don't mean
#
romantically commit I mean
#
when I commit friendship to someone
#
and that person is my friend everybody else
#
is noise I may be nice to you
#
I may be friendly with you but I am not your friend
#
my friends remain constant through
#
life I have old friends who
#
we have been together since you are 6 years old
#
8 years 10 years old I have made very few
#
new friends in my life maybe
#
in my mid 20s I kind of
#
finished I have made maybe
#
half a dozen since but if
#
someone were to say who are your friends it's been the
#
same names for years in showbiz it's not
#
like that which is like
#
for example Amitabh Bachchan's father died
#
like tomorrow god forbid you know
#
my parent any parent you know they all
#
have to die at some point who do the people by
#
side you know my friends who knew him who grew
#
on up with him you know
#
not Amar Singh and Dhanil Ambani who I met 5 years ago
#
but do you have any close friends
#
that world doesn't allow it
#
and the emotional equilibrium of
#
are very different maybe it's different
#
for sports persons I have never observed them closely
#
but yeah I observed that
#
so I wrote about that I wrote films
#
maybe they will never get produced maybe I will just leave them
#
and if someone wants to produce them I think
#
they are fantastic scripts maybe I will one day
#
f**k yeah I want to make a movie
#
may aapko likke de deta
#
the day you decide the day you find a CEO
#
for news laundry and you open this up for crowd
#
funding no worse you will get the
#
funding likke de deta but
#
we will come back to that later from what you
#
said about the emotional equilibrium of Bollywood
#
shaped so differently one of the things I have been
#
musing on recently is how
#
changes us in such profound
#
ways like just you know at the very basic
#
level of my podcast I am doing 4 hour interviews
#
or whatever that forces me to research and go
#
deeper than I otherwise would it forces me
#
to listen you know for shorter
#
stuff you don't listen it forces me to read
#
a lot more all of these things
#
and I feel that changed me
#
in some ways now obviously
#
you see these changes in
#
a much more extreme and obvious
#
form in something like Bollywood where you
#
are in those compressed environments
#
so on and so forth you see those
#
perhaps in the work you do you see
#
those in politics where I have always held
#
that politics invariably
#
corrodes character because you are constantly making
#
compromises and building
#
personas who are not who you are and eventually
#
the you know the mukhottas you wear
#
become you you know I don't know if that's
#
the case with Arvind you know him much
#
better but I would I have always
#
thought of it as a general rule of politics
#
your reflections on that and also
#
think that the kind of work that you do
#
in terms of what you are because of course
#
you are I saw the slip of yours where
#
you talk about journalism being a combat sport
#
so in a sense that causation
#
is coming that the kind of work you do is because of the kind of
#
person you are but does it
#
also work the other way because
#
you constantly have to therefore
#
in your line of work especially if you are
#
doing journalism with rigour as you
#
spoke about you have to be a constant
#
sceptic you have to constantly question
#
everything not be quick to judgement
#
what's your sense of this
#
friends who have known me for years will
#
scoff if you say that I am not quick to judgement
#
they find me the most judgemental because
#
you know have arguments and fight
#
at social do's where you
#
should not do that on political
#
issues on someone saying something
#
I wouldn't just let it pass I am like
#
that's not okay fuck you
#
they took it as judgemental I didn't see
#
that as judgemental it's just that you don't let certain things
#
become habits you know like
#
smoking like writing is for
#
seeing what was the right thing to do
#
at a governance level following governance
#
following the news in a way
#
which is unhealthy for you like
#
you know I had gone with my sis for
#
a holiday and we were you know driving
#
the whole that whatever
#
what is that Colorado river Grand Canyon
#
and you know you do that whole Vegas
#
keep checking NDTV App Indian Express
#
App she said fucking switch off
#
switch off that's something one news professionals
#
most news people I know can't switch
#
off now I am sure that takes its toll on us
#
maybe someone to someone else
#
I am a complete fucking basket case
#
the equilibrium it is different for different people
#
not being able to switch off
#
and also the model you choose
#
because we are subscription based
#
to go for the click thing
#
stuff that is solid but
#
people think it valuable enough
#
it is not like I don't want to be
#
news lawyer to be a really big
#
I am in no hurry you know
#
it has to be done on our terms
#
it does shape you because of
#
the decisions you made it
#
and many you know I have changed my
#
view about many other things
#
now the other thing what you said
#
I had a very judgmental
#
view on politics and politicians
#
a more nuanced view because I understand the game
#
that is being played I mean I will give you
#
considering I was one of
#
there are several million people in the party why am I
#
not there it was the most obvious
#
Santosh contested Manish contested
#
well I fucked it into they could not contest
#
I knew that was not for me
#
how would I know that was not for me was that
#
when we were running that whole
#
jamboree circus call it
#
what you want of course it was an event we had to get eyeballs
#
that was the whole idea I mean I asked Mayu to come I asked
#
Rocky to come they have no interest in
#
activism they came because they are friends of mine
#
we will get coverage that Rocky Mayu will come
#
then you call up a friend report
#
because it is about media management
#
let us not kid ourselves that was a very
#
important one when Arvind will
#
go on stage it should be in the evening people are
#
we used to be sitting there so you know
#
and again I think this whole emotional
#
in a bizarre land if you have to be
#
this combination like I have a
#
theory that bureaucrats
#
have to be either servile or
#
completely obnoxious and bossy and I asked
#
Mr. Lavasa this in the interview
#
that either they are will treat
#
you like your shit that means you are below
#
the joint secretary is sitting and the secretary has come
#
three axles sir like fucking have some dignity
#
if the minister comes then we will be late
#
are going from such civility
#
to such obnoxious arrogance
#
you are fucking mentally
#
fucked here when we would be sitting
#
days there were no crowds would be coming we don't
#
figure out how do we SMS
#
bhejo ye karo wo karo studio
#
jao I used to be going from studio to studio you know
#
arguing with Singh V and
#
Sanjay Jha and all and that's another thing
#
me and Sanjay Jha used to have such
#
because I was representing team
#
Anna what was called and I would rather call it
#
team Lokpal and he was representing
#
the congress because he was
#
like quasi spokesman of congress
#
and we had such ugly exchanges
#
in fact we bumped into each other and we were the think fest
#
if we meet we are friendly you see
#
it's changed now we have a common
#
that time he was my adversary
#
now his adversaries of BJP was mine
#
then you know I had very close
#
friends from who are now in this camp
#
who would happily entertain me
#
so when we used to be getting
#
these crowds etc together
#
we would be sitting and I don't know
#
if you remember you were in Bombay but
#
that whole Jan Lokpal movement was no
#
one we hadn't seen anything like this in India
#
it had become an event and now
#
the farmers the numbers that
#
on their bad day what we had on
#
our best day you know they are 10
#
but is it a television event?
#
no it's not 5000 people on
#
Jantar Mantar was a bigger television event
#
then 1 lakh farmers out of him 20
#
it's more probably number is 50
#
our production was a small production it was a fucking big event
#
every night in prime time we were all there
#
during that time the amount of people who got excited
#
and said Desh Badlenge next revolution aayi hai
#
jazba humme bhi tha hai we used to get excited
#
jab wo stage se you know
#
dil diya hai we used to
#
fucking we used to feel the
#
of course back stage jaake we used to be two sewing ourselves
#
and we'd say bloody Anna is not eating
#
so when he would say tumhe sharm diya hai tum kha rahe Anna nahi kha rahe
#
toh uski choice hai mene toh mene kone me
#
jaake khaal deta tha but there were some guys
#
who wouldn't eat ya until Anna eats I won't eat
#
one of them still works with Arvind till today
#
I was like dude you'll fucking die Anna is used to it
#
he's doing this every 2-3 years you've never done this
#
you're like 25 your body is eating up
#
fat faster he didn't fucking eat till Anna
#
there were people like that at the back
#
and they're still there in his team
#
the one thing that fucking used to get
#
my goat and we know how hard it is to produce
#
excite people and want them to make change
#
Ghaziabad mein office hota tha some fucking
#
three chutiyaas will walk in tum lo
#
ye karna nahi aata tum ye ho tum gande ho tum wo
#
Arvind and Manish would sit and listen to it ya
#
haan toh humme kya karna chahi hai chhaan bataiye
#
who the fuck are you to tell me kya karna chahi hai
#
chahi hai tu ne kya kiya hai life mein
#
roz gali khao kisi se naa hum so rahe hain
#
naa paisa kama rahe hain
#
aur log aake lecture din lag jaa se I used to get very irritated
#
Arvind said you can't lose your temper
#
you've got to listen to the guy
#
he has a worse life than you
#
he is probably in some slum
#
his day has been shit naa his life is shit
#
let him come and vent here
#
I couldn't do that I'd fucking flip out
#
fucking they could sit and listen to
#
people tell them that they are fucking shit
#
having had such a miserable day
#
this is not for me man I fucking
#
can't do this I can't sit and bloody listen to
#
some people telling me I am a chutiya
#
after I have been working my ass off
#
just because his life is worse than mine
#
I am giving you one instance
#
there were many instances of
#
me is that many journalists who have covered
#
politics for much longer than I have
#
and I am not saying they should not criticise they must
#
criticise but even when they are not
#
publicly criticising when they are
#
discussing politics their understanding
#
politics is not the game you are playing it is a
#
different game it's up to you whether
#
you want to play it or not you play your game
#
but many of them say this is what this
#
one should do I am like dude you have no idea
#
when there are 20,000 people
#
joining your party every day
#
if you think you are going to be doing a
#
you know due diligence and
#
head hunting on each of them which one should be allowed
#
your party will be like Jaiprakash Narayan
#
you get one seat at some point and then that is it
#
of a board that is vetting
#
when anyone joins news laundry they have
#
three stages of vetting
#
when you are launching a party there is zero stages
#
of vetting they are just fucking coming
#
jo chipagya chipagya jo nikal liya nikal liya
#
I mean I am giving a review basically
#
how messaging works I understood
#
how politics works I understood what it takes
#
to make a movement that
#
became the biggest thing since fucking
#
you know quit India movement or whatever
#
it's not my game I don't want to play that game
#
maybe you know when I am 60
#
and I feel that I have zero fucks
#
to give you know like we were talking
#
what fascinates me is how
#
few people understand that
#
and what your expectations from that
#
game should be and what your expectations from
#
this game should be again I repeat
#
your values on politics otherwise
#
they will go off the rails
#
they have to be held to account to what they said yesterday
#
there are too many compromises
#
that I would find hard to
#
did that game change the people who did
#
have otherwise they have no business being there
#
in the pan and that's the end of it if they want to grow
#
and I was telling about
#
you know Barkha a lot of people critique her
#
and criticize her for a lot of reasons and some
#
completely unjustified some completely unjustified
#
but she's a super hard worker for which I have a lot of respect
#
works harder than people half her age
#
phenomenal learner she does one
#
fuck up she knows what the fuck up is
#
she's got the intelligence to identify it
#
and move on to the best she will
#
transition with the only person who I've
#
seen who's a better learner than her is Arvind
#
not knowing how to handle
#
10 people to figuring that out
#
to not knowing how to handle 100 million
#
to fucking knowing how to handle million
#
and he'll keep fucking up
#
but the thing is that when he
#
like when that whole thing happened
#
and I mean Tavleen Singh used to keep writing this
#
that was a proto-op India in a way
#
every third week this is the end what a foolish mistake
#
oh my god master stroke by Amit Shah that
#
Kiran Bedi I've worked with Kiranji
#
the moment she was made chief minister in carry of BJP
#
I tweeted it and you can see on my twitter
#
they will be happy if they get double digits
#
because I've worked with her
#
that oh he resigned he this is the end of the movement
#
this is the end of the party that movement and that party
#
obituary has been written so many times
#
in print shamelessly after getting it wrong
#
that times of India piece that I wrote I was like the one thing
#
that I can tell you is this guy
#
up he will identify his fuck up
#
he will say okay let's fix this
#
move and he will become
#
bigger and better at that game
#
the game he chooses to play
#
so I have a follow up question
#
recorded with MR Madhavan of PRS
#
yesterday and I don't know
#
whether that episode will come before this or after
#
but one of the things we were discussing
#
involves many different games not one
#
game and the context in which I mentioned
#
this to him was one game is how to win elections
#
which a party may master and if
#
it comes to power obviously it has mastered
#
and the other game is governance
#
where they might be starting with a completely
#
insulate and have to learn from scratch and all that
#
and he pointed out how there is a third game after
#
you become a minister but let's not go there
#
I don't know personally and you have obviously known
#
him very closely and this
#
is a question that could apply to many similar politicians
#
to in fact many people who enter politics
#
is that it seems that there are
#
for him you know maybe three
#
but here are the first two one game
#
is that you get into the kind of
#
work you do whether you call it activism or not
#
social work whatever because you have a
#
set of principles you want to
#
bring about a certain change that's why you get
#
into it then you enter politics
#
and you're playing actually a different
#
is to win power no matter what happens
#
those principles are orthogonal
#
sometimes they may help sometimes they may not
#
matter at all because what you need to
#
need to do to win power is
#
something completely different
#
and then you get to power now there's
#
of course the third game of governance on
#
how you make things happen but let's leave that aside for
#
me that there are times where there can be
#
between these two games you might
#
for example begin with liberal principles
#
elected if you have to appeal to say
#
an illiberal polity you know
#
if you have to you know like one of the
#
things that I have criticized
#
the Yamadmi party on for example in recent
#
years is not speaking up
#
adequately on issues like the abolition of
#
NRC protests or at different
#
points in time. Not speaking up would still be
#
okay but endorsing it saying we welcome
#
what happened in Kashmir. In Kashmir is
#
I mean I don't have words for it it's just
#
and I understand the political rationale
#
which members of the Yamadmi party
#
have given me that listen
#
his focus his narrative is a governance
#
narrative he'll do the work in
#
education and health and all of that and that's
#
what people want and he will not fight
#
with the BJP on you know
#
social issues because the Hindu vote is
#
what it is. Or not yet anyway. Or not yet
#
that doesn't sit well with me
#
I understand the political logic
#
but what I would then say is that
#
okay he might be making some
#
progress or he might be doing it for reasons
#
that are rational within that second game of
#
getting votes and winning elections
#
so my personal view is you cannot out out
#
if you're saying I won't fight on that
#
front I'll fight on the governance front where I'm in
#
a strong position I get that logic
#
but that first game then I would say you have
#
completely lost it because then what do you stand for
#
and I find that there is
#
a certain kind of contradiction there
#
and I have asked this even in the context of the BJP
#
because on the one hand the BJP comes
#
out of the social movement that has
#
again I could not disagree with more
#
strongly and on the other
#
hand they also have this great will to
#
power where no matter what
#
it takes they will win elections
#
they'll go to the north east and say aap log beef khao
#
no issues with you guys eating beef
#
or politicians that they were abusing one day
#
they'll welcome into the party the next day
#
or buy them off when they lose their elections
#
because there is a will to power and my
#
question there to you know people
#
within the know or people sympathetic to them
#
has always been that is there a conflict
#
there between their true beliefs
#
and you know actually winning
#
the vote but that's a separate question you
#
have seen sort of Arvind close up
#
how would you respond to this I mean
#
how would you respond to this? See I mean
#
and at the same time I don't want to
#
my proximity to him to discuss
#
stuff that I don't think is fair
#
as a friend who has known him for 20
#
and through being a co-traveller
#
you know at least a part of
#
and you know when the first election
#
not joined the party officially like it
#
was this confusing thing like
#
on the one hand I was a founder member but
#
I did not take party membership because when
#
the party was actually announced
#
there is whole thing that you know when Digvijay Singh
#
khud chalaad laddo is like you are not agreeing
#
with anything and he had no intention
#
of fighting any election
#
had those continuous barbs
#
provocation not happened
#
there would be no up to date
#
now many people say that oh he had a long game
#
planned and all I can tell you with certainty
#
to get him to contest an election the Arvind of
#
2006-2007 even up to 2009-10
#
ab usse vote nahi dalwa paaye hum salla election ladwaenge
#
he was not interested that continuous
#
you know this Manishankar
#
here these gutter snipes
#
these kidas I remember the way he used
#
to talk contest election
#
contest election he said okay fuck you I will
#
contest election ya it was pure
#
that is why he contested
#
happened it happened you know behind us
#
where all the Emporiums in Delhi were
#
piche badi see accoritorium hai pata nahi
#
kis ka tha diya tha hame
#
and it was all that we will do everything by referendum
#
which of course came to bite him also
#
you know shiru mein tha karna chahiye ki
#
nahi karna chahiye ha karna chahiye
#
and now we are all founding members
#
but before that you know there had been a smaller meeting
#
with Kiran ji with Prashant
#
and all that the party will be
#
which way the crowd is going to go and if he wants a crowd
#
put the proposition in a way where
#
he will win the proposition
#
which is why when Prashant and Yogan
#
and all left the party who left with them
#
did it impact the party kuch nahi hua
#
to the 2-3 other things that I learnt
#
one thing I learnt is you cannot come on Sunday practice
#
and be the captain of the team
#
to be the captain of the team you have to be in the bunkers
#
if you are not everyday with the boys in the bunkers on Sunday you come
#
and say I am the best player because I have a law degree
#
the players will say thank you
#
but you are not our captain the guy who has
#
been in the bunker everyday with us is our captain
#
they got that wrong they thought cause they are
#
smarter they are more articulate
#
no that's not how politics works
#
it is the time you spend
#
give it 24 hours of your day
#
the guy had no life for that time
#
whereas the rest of us would go home
#
naaad hoke phir monday ko aate the
#
wo toh saara din wahi tha toh jo aap aayenge
#
aur waha hazaar log bethe hain unko
#
bolenge bas meri baat sunenge
#
na it's common sense ya
#
and we privileged don't get it we think cause we are smarter
#
we are more articulate we are better looking they listen to us they won't
#
what is your question sorry
#
now I still have faith in him
#
what many of the others
#
like to do what a couple
#
do I always agree with what he does?
#
which is not the reason I could probably never be in politics
#
I'd have to go and speak I mean
#
I remember when we had to go and defend Kiranji
#
I remember when she did that whole mukhata
#
she did this whole skit
#
I remember I was holding my head I was like dude come on ya
#
don't ask me to defend this on prime time at night
#
cause sometimes you can't defend shit man
#
if there is anyone who can take
#
down the BJP in this country
#
otherwise you think they gave a shit
#
Rajnath Singh removed that one ACB that was under him
#
Delhi Chief Minister has only one police station under her
#
which Sheeladisha didn't use for 15 years
#
as soon as he came he got an affair against
#
Sibbul, Ambani and Moili
#
remember and they did that
#
in parliament they passed that whatever resolution
#
they have been doing politics long enough to
#
identify the guy who is their biggest threat
#
and like I said I think that his
#
utterances on Kashmir were
#
they just did not sit okay with me
#
Kashmiri brothers and sisters like that
#
ironically fucking they came to
#
do the same thing to the Delhi
#
LG was overruling everything
#
but I also understand politics
#
enough to know what is being
#
I will never publicly endorse it
#
and I will always question because as a journalist
#
that is my I just use my
#
call myself a journalist okay
#
but as a citizen I cannot
#
endorse that but do I understand that
#
yes I understand that and do I believe
#
I will still vouch for him
#
one can you know reject it
#
if there is someone I have seen
#
I will tell you talking
#
about whose support you should take or not
#
take we were to set up an RTI
#
it happened in the Nehru center
#
what is it? Teen Murthy center
#
it was in partnership with Zee
#
Mr Goyal was very fond of Arvind
#
so Zee used to do a lot of support to us
#
they had sponsored the RTI wards
#
one year NDTV had sponsored the RTI
#
from now I was very fond of him
#
because I was associated with NDTV
#
camps to be held all over the country
#
we did this big event in Delhi and there were camps all over
#
it was called Ghusko Ghusa
#
internet wasn't so major in 2005
#
but you will still find some remnants of that
#
huge, logistically huge
#
there were about 60 organizations from around the country
#
people who had boots on the ground
#
in South Avenue where the MPs houses are
#
Digvijay Singh had his house there
#
we are fighting with these guys
#
we are doing dharnas against these guys
#
why are we meeting with Digvijay Singh
#
he said you have to file RTIs
#
they have a carder who will start doing RTIs
#
whether it is because Sonia wants to
#
fight Manmohan, internal politics
#
whatever it is, we don't let them
#
we say we have to file RTIs
#
what can you do, how can you do
#
I have attended a meeting with at that time
#
I don't know if it was 2004 or 2005
#
Sarsan Chalak of the RSS
#
that you have a carder here, do RTI
#
corruption is it, our money
#
our rights, we have a right to know
#
he said I am asking you to join the RSS
#
if they sit and file RTIs on why is this broken
#
he says people should use the RTI like they use currency
#
everyone should be able to ask
#
why the fuck is my sadak broken
#
how much have you spent on MP lads
#
where has this money gone, where is this corruption
#
now a guy like me would never go and sit
#
and there is another thing
#
and this was a big difference
#
in the Sangh and the Congress
#
and this was even when I was reported
#
with news track, if you go to
#
any of the Congress guy's house, you are treated like a chaprasi
#
tea will reach, matthi will reach
#
breakfast will reach, don't come inside
#
when Jagmohan had run on Sudarshan
#
you go for an interview, it was like an uncle-aunt
#
middle-aged uncle, eat laddu
#
when I went to interview Jagmohan I remember
#
I had to get back, I didn't want to sit in his office
#
in home and have laddu, but I was sitting in his house
#
on his sofa having laddu while his
#
wife was talking to his aunt
#
it was very Gharelu type
#
the RSS, but I can't deny
#
that when we left Mr Sudarshan's office
#
he came up to the car to leave us
#
he is the bloody Sarasanchalak of RSS
#
I am Chutiya Nikku here, who the fuck am I
#
but when you are dealing with a Sibbul
#
or something, you are a chaprasi
#
and you will be treated as such
#
that doesn't mean I love Sudarshan
#
when are we talking, are we talking when the UPA
#
Sibbul is my primary combatant
#
so, these are things that
#
I understood, I figured
#
so, I hope you are right and I won't push back on that
#
but it does strike me that
#
like, when I think of what
#
I will think of his actions
#
and you know, when you mentioned incorruptible
#
and I just look at that Kashmir thing for example
#
either he genuinely believed
#
that it was a good thing
#
maybe that I made it in a shallow way financially
#
maybe, ideologically, okay
#
ideologically, yeah, that's what I meant
#
because financially I can, I mean, I know
#
sure, I mean, look I am sure even Modi is incorruptible
#
financially, what does that do
#
I kind of disagree but anyway
#
okay, I mean, if you have inside info
#
feel free to give it here
#
but what does that do? I mean, Hitler was a vegetarian
#
so, what did you do with him?
#
Mohan was incorruptible
#
I mean, he was a primary, I get what you are saying
#
I don't disagree with you
#
like I said, very contextual
#
I voted for them earlier
#
parties are ideological, voters should not be
#
well said, yeah, honestly
#
the Prime Minister's seat and back to back
#
victories, I would vote against him
#
I don't believe anyone should be given that much
#
now, Delhi Chief Minister has no power
#
so I don't really care one way or the other
#
my Dadi used to say, I am a congressman
#
that generation was like that
#
they took part in the freedom movement
#
she was in Kanyamaha Vidyalaya for her Bapu
#
they had met these people
#
I am a congressman, meanwhile my side
#
of the family that had seen the partition had come from
#
Lahore, they were for the Sang
#
they are not even for the BJP, which is why
#
in 2004, the Sang wasn't
#
Modi may be bigger than the Sang which is
#
why many pieces have been written about it
#
and will it last, can they?
#
but at least pre-Modi, you could not be bigger than the Sang
#
grand aunt, you know, from
#
they were extended relatives
#
from my father's side, from Punjab
#
I mean, just one of them is alive today, otherwise they were
#
they were nice, they were wonderful
#
they weren't bigoted like these bloody open-air types
#
but they will say, we will vote for who the Sang says
#
if the Sang says BJP, BJP
#
the Sang says Congress, but what the Sang says
#
that generation of voters
#
our generation of voters should be
#
who can take down A, who can take
#
down B, is he the perfect
#
was Mayawati the perfect candidate, no
#
but I was sick of the Congress
#
saying that we are so cool
#
because we are rich, sophisticated
#
and corrupt, but she is not because
#
she is not rich, sophisticated, but she is corrupt
#
I won't vote for Mayawati today, if someone who
#
I can't argue with anyone saying that Mayawati is the
#
best candidate, I know she is not
#
but at that time I wish a couple of
#
hundred thousand people had voted for her
#
and bloody she had, if you read
#
the book Behenji by Ajoy Bose
#
her coming to Chief Minister was a bloody
#
miracle ya, and it fucking jolted
#
UP like nothing has before
#
we needed something like that, so right now
#
if you don't like the way the
#
I don't see anyone even close to
#
Arvind being able to take, and also not just
#
Shah Rukh Khan ki film, Baniye ka Deewag
#
aur Miya Bhai ki daring
#
anything, like he doesn't, he has
#
that is the reason I think
#
I kind of agree with you about how voters
#
be fixed on one party and how we should
#
be prudent, but I am also reminded of
#
something, was it Hannah Arendt who said this
#
I forget who, but those who vote for the lesser
#
evil should remember that they are still
#
so my kind of pessimism
#
runs much deeper, I just think that
#
like you, I will oppose
#
whichever party is in power, because
#
that is kind of the nature of
#
the beast. Let's move on to talking
#
about the media and I will end the show by asking
#
of Highway on a Plate, because
#
you intrigued me a lot with the little that
#
you did say about it, but
#
when I look at the media, one of the things
#
that I think is really exciting
#
for creators of any kind
#
look back at the 1990s, creators
#
were dependent on intermediaries
#
so if I was a writer, I could not
#
reach my audience directly, my audience
#
may value my work, because time is money
#
they are spending time reading or listening or whatever
#
but I have no way to capture that
#
I have to go to intermediaries like
#
Times of India or a news channel or whatever
#
intermediaries, they collate eyeballs
#
they get advertising, I get a tiny
#
tiny chunk of that. I think that whole
#
model has broken down completely, as you
#
have also mentioned earlier
#
and experienced and in fact led the way for that
#
the model has broken down in two ways
#
one, I think that the way
#
people discover content, consume
#
content, filter content
#
has changed completely, but I also think that
#
advertising model is completely broken
#
like John Wanamaker once famously
#
said, half the money I spent on advertising is wasted
#
I don't know which half, I think today
#
the percentage is like way more than that
#
all these metrics which
#
publications used to get ads are basically
#
just being gamed, it is a mugs
#
game, and I think consumers
#
are now more and more reaching
#
creators directly and creators are
#
able to not only build communities of
#
their audiences, but also
#
because, and especially what
#
I feel is that the more
#
you provide value to the consumer
#
the greater the level of engagement
#
so it is not just a total eyeballs
#
that matter, it is a degree
#
of engagement, like a news laundry
#
support reader would 100%
#
more engaged and feel much
#
more ownership than say a Times of India
#
reader, right? Tell me a little
#
bit about your experiences of
#
this because you are essentially
#
the first pioneer of this kind of
#
thing where you are, where you have decided
#
that advertising jai bhar mein
#
we will take the support of those we serve and
#
us working out, so tell me, I am very
#
fascinated to know more about how your thinking
#
on this evolved and how it spanned out
#
so I won't go on too long
#
I mean there are just so many young people who have lived
#
with this for so long and learnt so much
#
you know, it could take hours
#
few basic things, one is
#
like you said, your immediate
#
tribe has to be very committed and convinced
#
to what you are doing because they will
#
carry your word faster than you will carry your word
#
further. I will not get into
#
too much detail in that but
#
you know, giants like Google and Facebook
#
need to be controlled and
#
regulated, they need to be broken up
#
but how do you break up something like Facebook and
#
Vivek Kol and I discuss this and
#
usually wonder how because it's a network
#
how can you break up a network, it's not like
#
big oil that you divide into five
#
they have is deeply, deeply worrying
#
shut you and me out if they choose to
#
which is why regulation is an important
#
believe we live in a post-ideological age, I find
#
the whole commentary around
#
you know, people who identify themselves
#
as communist or socialist as
#
idiotic as people who identify themselves as capitalist because
#
I shouldn't use the word like idiotic but
#
unwise, it is not a thought through
#
if you look at history, political history
#
and economic history of the world
#
I mean some of the most capitalist
#
countries so to speak have the
#
biggest socialist programs whether
#
But the argument then would be
#
that you shouldn't call them capitalist and vice versa
#
Exactly, on the other side
#
what's wrong with you, I am blanking out, US what do you get?
#
You get after the great depression
#
the fatigue of talking about
#
three hours is completely, the big deal, what is it
#
the new deal, the new deal
#
and giving everyone that basic
#
unemployment that you live on
#
In Singapore, the housing
#
that you get is like way subsidised
#
there is no place like Singapore
#
where everything is like market
#
market, capitalist, capitalist
#
so to speak communist state or
#
A, the regulation that is required
#
I believe regulation is something that is very
#
call regulation is what is like
#
this whole debate around news media
#
should you not be regulated, of course we should regulate
#
but who says we aren't regulated
#
the way it is worded that there is no regulation
#
there is a regulation, we do abide by laws
#
we have to, there is some compliance
#
we have to do, so what is regulation
#
is important, now that is a very important part
#
in the world going forward
#
with people like Google and Facebook coming as powerful as
#
honeymoon that you and I are going through right now
#
can really be brought to
#
a very rude and abrupt end, I think Germany
#
is going down the right way, I think other countries
#
because they are cornering
#
the growth of the internet
#
when it comes to the financial aspect
#
or the commerce of it, is being cornered
#
by four or five big guys
#
that is not healthy for any society
#
so let's put that aside
#
that is all I have to say about this aspect
#
and it's a very important aspect of the growth
#
but when it comes to what can you and I do
#
identify that tribe, convince people and I have also realized
#
that in the first stage
#
people don't identify with
#
or a mission, they identify with
#
the person, do they like Amit
#
do they like Madhu, do they like Abhinandan
#
and that's also true for politics
#
today in the digital age, which is why this whole
#
oh it's a one man party, oh it's
#
dude, if you understand politics and
#
it will be, at least in the
#
foreseeable future, at least
#
consumption and consumer
#
right now, your party will
#
not be bigger than your leader and no matter
#
you may have been started by, that we are
#
against central commando,
#
high command culture, high command culture
#
do without that, your party will not
#
similarly, stage one has to
#
be person, people have to like
#
you, so you have to put out what
#
you believe, your message is you
#
and then they say okay, what this guy is saying
#
we agree with or disagree with, like a lot of
#
people in the beginning
#
and now I have stopped getting that hate mail
#
and that hate tweets, we thought you were a
#
good boy, why, because in 2012
#
was at Manmohan and gang
#
now it is at your boy, now
#
you hate me, but at that time
#
you liked me, okay, enthusiastic
#
he fights with everyone, he is fighting
#
then I heard my message, then I tweeted
#
that if I had to choose
#
between two and a gun was put to my head
#
of course I choose the congress because I hate
#
religious bigotry, oh my god
#
he is like this, hello, welcome to the party
#
of course anyone sensible will be, you know
#
if I had to like, for you
#
a single podcast, if Abhinadas doing a podcast, I can
#
make a living doing a podcast, you know, I can
#
get a few hundred, couple of thousands of subscribers
#
that's enough to take care of my needs
#
but if I want to do reporting, I want to
#
make a difference in the news world
#
you cannot be the only star
#
take the back seat, you have to become the sidey
#
and you have to have a bunch of people
#
really good at what they do and are passionate
#
as you, they aren't there for the
#
anchor, you know, many people
#
want to be an anchor, this
#
Narasimhan guy, he was from Mr. Model or something
#
were you ever interested in this
#
you know, have 4-5 such people
#
who are as driven by the
#
you know, we have such a phenomenal team, you know
#
our design team, you know how committed they are
#
they are so young, and they have
#
should we come to office, I said, kids you stay home man
#
how have they not named us, bloody they are willing
#
to jump into the fight with you
#
and they are 24, I am fucking
#
you know, have that team
#
and you will go through
#
mistakes, you will hire 5 lemons here
#
who are just there for the ride
#
and then when they realize, dude these guys mean business
#
why I am joining times here, I was like, congratulations
#
why would you even come here
#
if that was your intention
#
ground reports, the crux
#
of growth is ground reports
#
first post had more opinion piece than
#
anybody does, they will, no one is going to pay to
#
feed first post, nobody
#
your ground reporting has to
#
be of a certain caliber, if one has
#
to grow, and podcasts are very important
#
because podcasts are very important
#
for your primary tribe, your primary tribe
#
podcasts are high engagement
#
absolutely, and we started
#
podcasts, you know, before anybody
#
had, because I was addicted to
#
podcasts from the mid 2000s
#
to the NPR podcast, when that bloody
#
lemon broke and they started Planet Money, I was
#
addicted to that podcast, and I
#
haven't missed an episode in the last so many years
#
and I was like, podcast
#
chalu karna hai, and I think we started as in 2013
#
14, I forget when we started our podcast
#
why the fuck you want to start a podcast
#
I was like, dude, it is the most highest
#
engagement thing, and sure it was
#
and when we pulled it behind the paywall
#
you know, that's when we saw the
#
biggest spurt in subscribers back then
#
when we just had 3 or 4 ground reporters
#
today we have, what, maybe 10, 11
#
12 ground reporters, and we want
#
to take this number up to 50 ground reporters
#
we want to have the network of
#
reporters who are passionate, driven
#
about, you know, a handful
#
of these networks owning the internet
#
is that, yes, I think that's an existential
#
threat to all of us, and I'm incredibly
#
I also feel that we should not
#
reflexively think of state coercion
#
as the answer, if state coercion is
#
to be the answer, then it's people like Modi
#
who could be deciding, or people like Trump
#
and so I'm just really wary of that
#
that fine, you want to regulate the media, but who's
#
regulating you, you know, any
#
organization that really regulates you
#
through the power of the state
#
will crush dissent in some way or the other
#
and that's kind of what, I mean, yeah, that's
#
a more complicated discussion that
#
we can leave for some other day
#
an inevitability to governments
#
governments framing regulatory frameworks
#
So you want to influence that
#
as much as possible in the limited way
#
Now, how you go about that is different, but
#
at least in the current
#
state of how things are run in
#
the world, you can't get around that
#
problem, and one thing that I've learned from
#
like Arvind especially, is that
#
identify the problem that you can't
#
and then fucking set that aside as a
#
given, this is a given we're
#
living with, now what can I change
#
to get to where I want to get
#
Governments framing policy
#
for anything is a given
#
How we get about influencing that is
#
You know, you mentioned highway on a plate
#
and all that, I won't ask you to elaborate on it at
#
too much length, but I have
#
a broader question that also kind of touches
#
upon that experience, which is that you
#
spoke that while shooting highway on a
#
plate, you visited every state
#
in this country, which is phenomenal
#
Now, both of us grew up
#
in little privileged bubbles
#
over time, we came out of it little
#
bits at a time, and our eyes opened, and you
#
see something new, and a layer falls off
#
somewhere, and a veil falls off somewhere else, and you
#
see something in a way that you didn't see
#
thing, you know, when you look back
#
the 20 year old you, and you look at you today
#
what are the layers that you think
#
fell off, in what way are you
#
kind of different from that
#
and would this experience of having
#
states for this show, and would also
#
the experience of so much ground reporting
#
getting out in the field and
#
even though a lot of your ground reporting may
#
have been back in the day
#
how did this make you see the
#
country differently, like if there's a young person
#
who has the same kind of background
#
as you and I do, but they're young, they're 22, what do you
#
want to tell them, that bro the world
#
is not how you see it, but what else would you add to
#
that? I mean, there are
#
many things, but I mean
#
maybe a couple of things that are
#
most important learnings for
#
I had this cockiness and arrogance
#
a home that is very well read, I have read
#
so many books, I went to a good school, I
#
passed exams fairly effortlessly
#
I never owned a textbook
#
in my life, and yet I'd
#
and people would, so you know you have
#
The one thing that I learnt through my travels
#
the documentary films I shot
#
central planning is something that I'm completely
#
against, the whole Swaraj
#
and I'll illustrate this
#
one specific example, because
#
while I was shooting Highlander Plate, I was also
#
flirting with activism at the time, you know
#
Again, you called yourself a journalist earlier and you spoke
#
about spreading the accuracy right now, great
#
So, you're exhausting me to
#
submission. This is the whole reason of
#
four hour podcasts, you tire the person out and then
#
we were in the north east, I think
#
maybe somewhere near Nagaland
#
I think this was in a village
#
called Thembang if I'm not wrong
#
and you know, have you traveled
#
to Arunachal Nagaland etc?
#
It's really, I mean now of course when you go
#
into Arunachal that you have to stop
#
to show your underlying permit etc, now there's
#
lots of shops there where I had gone for the first time
#
it was like, you go there and there's
#
this deep green river and lush
#
forest, it's like Jurassic Park, you know
#
it's a very dramatic entry and then
#
as you go further because there are
#
clouds very low, now you're like driving
#
It's really, I mean the visibility
#
and the weather isn't that great all the time
#
So, and you know in the evening
#
when you're not shooting, you sit with
#
I was like, what would you want
#
given the funds in this local
#
someone said a hall where
#
we can have marriages, parties
#
you know music, there's enough
#
I was like dude like seriously
#
this is why you know central planning
#
may be a good idea, here you know
#
make a canal, make electricity, what do
#
they want? Cinema hall, they want a
#
and then when you stay and talk
#
you understand why, they said because
#
in our village if any kid wants to
#
watch a movie or wants any entertainment
#
they have to go to, you know depending on which
#
village, Kohima, Phunichalong
#
and you've seen the roads here
#
X amount of kids every year to accidents
#
if they had a place here
#
they wouldn't drive 40 kilometers away to watch a film
#
or to go for a party or to play in a
#
band, there should be one
#
and I'm like you know, would a central planner
#
here saying that you know in the north
#
east in these 8 villages
#
what should he put, would anyone say cinema hall
#
would they say a bloody hall for music
#
system and a stage where people can't
#
khamba lagao, bambu lagao, whatever the fuck lagao
#
no no, those guys know best
#
and talk to them you get, so one
#
lovely story which you might
#
I know you listeners would have said this on a highway
#
and I played podcast, there's a place
#
near Rajasthan called Sendhada
#
it has the best dahi bhalla's in the country
#
Prakriti Pradhan was demolished, there used to be
#
an annual food festival there
#
best charred, these are
#
winning best dahi bhalla
#
so we were supposed to go to Jaipur, from Jaipur we were
#
going to you know, via Jaisalmer
#
but we had to make this detour to Sendhada for dahi
#
bhalla's because our research showed that there's this place
#
I was like dude we're going to take a 100km detour for
#
dahi bhalla's, like one
#
as a producer you're thinking is it worth the trip
#
so I was in any case in a very negative
#
frame of mind, I was like how special can dahi bhalla be
#
so while I was sitting there
#
waiting for the shot to be set up, I was telling
#
Rocky yaar, bloody fucking
#
how special can dahi bhalla be
#
dahi bhalla is a dahi bhalla yaar
#
now you're cocky, arrogant, city slicker
#
he doesn't know English, he knew everything
#
although he was dressed in his
#
he said, are you talking about Scotch whiskey
#
why is Scotch whiskey special, and why
#
he said because Scotland's stream
#
has special water, their air
#
keep it in wood, that wood is special
#
so you can't get that taste here
#
we will extract milk, the curd
#
that is made, is made in this air
#
you know when you come to Delhi
#
Prakriti maidan, to make dahi bhalla
#
we bring 3 tankers from here, we don't make
#
dahi bhalla with your water
#
if Scotch whiskey can be special
#
why can't dahi bhalla be special
#
I was like fuck man that makes sense
#
from here, I will tell you
#
what we add, how much we add, make it in your heart
#
neither you have our water, nor my cows
#
nor my grass, it won't be made from you
#
okay fuck you Nikhu, you fucking talk too much
#
How were the dahi bhallas?
#
Outstanding dude, and I am not a dahi bhalla guy
#
and I was like fuck you are right man
#
there is something about this which is
#
I mean other than the film that I want to make
#
one thing that I want to do is with
#
Rocky, Mayur and Prashanth, I want to write a book
#
we have about 12,000 photographs
#
and Prashanth and Rocky
#
have photographed us, they were fucking
#
I am an impatient guy when I am shooting
#
and photographers are very patient
#
I said we have to make 500 kilometers today
#
we have to, one more photograph
#
just borrow my bund by bloody
#
taking pictures, but now
#
I see why, because we have
#
got pictures from Kashmir to Kanyakumari
#
from Kutch to fucking Arunachal
#
like I have a big poster
#
in my house which has about
#
100 pictures this this this this size
#
it starts off on the left corner with Kashmir
#
ends with Kanyakumari and there is every state in the middle
#
like from Somnath temple
#
to Ajmer to bloody Nagaland
#
one mission that I want
#
and I am not saying this in the
#
chest thumping that I love
#
my India, Subhash Ghai and Akshay
#
Kumar way, but the magic
#
being out there, probably this will happen to
#
any country, but our country is very
#
diverse, I think there is one cliché about India
#
that is that everything you say about India the opposite
#
extremely kind, we are very cruel
#
what Vir Das has just said
#
what he is getting a lot of flak for
#
he is making a different point, but
#
everything I say about India is the opposite also very true
#
and callous because of how we see lynchings
#
happen in front of us like
#
in a country which is not considered so civilised
#
even if a guy who looks like me
#
with a daadi, brown skin and all
#
if I am suffering with someone, dude you are okay, can I help you?
#
this guy really poached my cab
#
the guys in line said we are really sorry
#
Germany is not like this, that guy is not from here
#
because I was standing in line
#
the line was behind me and some guy just came and took the cab
#
would that happen here?
#
no, and we said we are more civilised, no
#
was unwell, bloody people
#
who you can't stand will come and give you blood
#
we don't see eye to eye, we fight so much
#
politically we are on opposite sides
#
Sushant is you know Sushant's brother
#
Sushant said you see him on times often
#
he is as right as they come
#
and I remember we used to fight so much
#
when I needed blood he was there
#
he says dude I am like 100 kilos, take 2 liters from me
#
and if that is something that I want to do
#
maybe when I am, if I live to be
#
60, 65, maybe I will spend 5 years
#
finally putting all these pictures
#
my travels and learnings
#
from people like this guy
#
who used to run this small dosa shop
#
between, where do all the South Indian
#
to Mangalore I think that was the stretch
#
he runs a small dosa shop
#
he didn't even have 2 clothes
#
we were a crew of 10, we must have eaten
#
and we had a policy, we would pay otherwise
#
we will not review because you can't go eat for free
#
so we would tell all the dhaba owners
#
restaurants and they would understand
#
all the hospitality because after rocky mill became
#
big names, people would want to see
#
so we said and people would say
#
then they would say ok fine
#
take the money, this guy said I won't
#
take money, I said dude
#
you can't not take money, there are fucking 10 of us
#
your hole in the wall is
#
worth less than one wheel of a car
#
so please please no no no
#
there was a language barrier
#
then I usually pull out my trump card
#
then we won't feature you on the show because that's our policy
#
he says don't feature me
#
he said I don't want to be featured on your show
#
it's late at night, you've come here, I enjoy talking to you
#
I'm not going to take money from you
#
if that means you don't feature me, don't feature me
#
you know you fucking meet magical
#
people who have nothing and will give you everything
#
and you can't cross dicks also
#
yeah I mean that cliché is one in fact
#
I keep repeating about the opposite also being true
#
in India, I'd done an episode with JP
#
Narayan where I put to him
#
I mentioned what an illiberal society
#
India had and of course I meant things
#
like how we treat women, caste, all of that
#
and he said at the same time it's very
#
liberal in some ways, you look at the cuisine, look at the food
#
which you ate, everything and every
#
meal you must have eaten has really come from
#
all over the place and just to
#
add something to this daivalla
#
angle, one angle he probably forgot
#
why do people eat so much
#
tomato juice when they're flying
#
because at that altitude your
#
taste buds taste and tomato juice
#
better for that way which is why
#
they sell more of it up there than down here
#
so maybe there's something to that as well
#
as you would know I have a deep distaste
#
for central planning but that is
#
one way in which Modiji and
#
Heruji are exactly the same
#
great belief in doing everything from
#
I've really taken enough of your time
#
and you've been very kind with your time and
#
insights so I'm going to ask you one final question
#
which I can't help but ask
#
which I ask on my guests
#
I'd like you to recommend some books
#
for my listeners to read, books that
#
might have shaped you, changed you in
#
somewhere, had a dear to you or even books
#
where you want to stand on a soap
#
box and shout read this book
#
because there's so many and
#
also what phase of life
#
are we talking about like I would not
#
Guha's India after Gandhi or many
#
of his books because I think he
#
because his wealth of knowledge is so
#
you a story that would ordinarily take
#
someone hundred thousand words
#
he can tell it to you in ten thousand
#
so India after Gandhi can tell you a lot about
#
the odds that India was shaped
#
I mean think about how big
#
know but I would not recommend that to someone
#
who's in class 10, 11, 12 or even first year college
#
maybe you should read that if you're in your 20s or
#
recommend Thomas Hyde to anyone who's
#
late 20s or... Let me give a twist to that
#
what would 47 year old Niku recommend
#
to the 20 year old Niku?
#
Woodhouse is going over your head so fucking don't
#
waste your time by reading them because your mother says they're funny
#
I love P.G. Woodhouse but continue
#
honestly I read a lot for my age yeah
#
so I actually wouldn't but what I will say is that
#
completely knocked my socks off
#
Jerry Pentland. I think
#
and you know I've read some other books of Jerry
#
after that which are not that
#
great but don't hold me to it
#
but I will hazard saying
#
that that's probably the best
#
book by an Indian author I have ever read
#
the language, his craft
#
Rushdie has. Rushdie is very
#
good with language and I would also recommend
#
Shame, highly recommend Shame
#
for me it's better than Midnight's Children
#
but he's able to communicate
#
the most profound emotions
#
and like forwards like how the
#
fuck does he do that and
#
that story it is so honest it is so
#
many of your life instances there
#
so I'd say M and the Big Home
#
is a must read for anyone
#
when I read it and when you say no
#
five copies and whoever
#
I met in the next week I said here
#
read this book, read this book, read this book
#
have had that effect on me M and the Big
#
Home is one, I loved Shame by Rushdie
#
I think Thomas Hardy should be read
#
when you're in young 20s it has an
#
and I think when you're that age you should
#
be a romantic fuck politics it'll come to
#
you eventually you know think
#
of the romance and the beautiful things in the world
#
I mean so in your early
#
by critics I loved The Ground Beneath
#
Her Feet by Rushdie I even liked Shalimar
#
The Clown a lot I loved
#
Graham Greene I mean it's
#
like a punch in the gut you know that like
#
the darkness that he creates
#
that's the thing about books there's so many
#
dozens and hundreds of them
#
like for me The Great Gatsby
#
was like a wonderful book
#
it was so thin it's the only book that I
#
finished because also because it was thin
#
and I was on a flight and I
#
flipped it over and started reading it again
#
so many things fall into place because then you're curious about
#
Fitzgerald why did he write it what was
#
this Gilded Age all about what was he
#
today to people you're in
#
my age whose eyes are getting weaker I recommend
#
podcasts because they are a
#
is one that I highly recommend it is just
#
very well and also before I finish
#
I must plug News Laundry
#
and I will say all for Amit's listeners
#
abhinandansekri.gmail.com I repeat abhinandansekri.gmail.com
#
abhinandansekri.gmail.com
#
and we'll get you 25% offer
#
and we'll also send you a gift hamper from News Laundry
#
if you're in India I can't ship it overseas
#
but if you give me an Indian address I'll ship it
#
so you can mail me and we'll give you
#
a 25% discount but just
#
have to say that you came through Amit's show cause otherwise
#
I'll get other mails also so yeah
#
yeah so kindly do that and even if you
#
don't want the 25% discount even if you're
#
abroad if you've reached this far
#
in the show it's because you care because you're
#
engaged so please do subscribe to
#
News Laundry it's I love the work you guys
#
do thanks and thank you
#
so much for you know coming
#
here being so patient sharing your insights
#
it's a pleasure thank you for inviting me and
#
it was wonderful having you at the Media Rumble a couple
#
years back hopefully when you get physical
#
again you'll come and we have a lot
#
more exciting guests and a lot more podcasts
#
so thank you for your show and
#
which people had abandoned
#
I'm so glad that you're doing this
#
thank you for listening
#
did you enjoy this episode
#
of the scene in the unseen if so
#
would you like to support the production
#
of the show you can go over
#
to scene unseen.in slash support
#
and contribute any amount
#
you like to keep this podcast
