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India has been independent for more than 75 years, and one question that we have to ask
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ourselves is, why is progress so slow?
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Why are we still so poor and backward?
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In 1947, we could say that part of our empowerment was because of colonialism.
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We don't have that excuse anymore.
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In terms of economics, it's clear that we chose the wrong path, but we did a course
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correction in 1991, we had 20 years of progress with hundreds of millions of people coming
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And while the last decade hasn't been great, we can still turn it around.
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But on social issues, the pace of change has been glacial.
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Women are still treated like second class citizens in this country and in their homes.
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And we are still a society torn apart by caste.
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How on earth in the 21st century can caste still play a role in our society?
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Well, maybe the eventual solution won't come from top down thinking, but from capitalism
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My guest today is a Dalit scholar and doer who has two great heroes, Baba Saheb Ambedkar
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And he has this incredible line in his Twitter bio, quote, caste and capitalism can't coexist,
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His argument is that free markets, that network of voluntary actions changes everyone's incentives,
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and this is helped along by urbanization.
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We move to cities to be part of larger economic networks where we can express some multitudes
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within us beyond our identities of birth.
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It becomes costly to discriminate.
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Instead, our incentives drive us to embrace a larger melting pot around us in our self-interest.
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Thus, over time, Dalits can escape the rigid networks that bind them down in their villages,
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which Ambedkar had famously described as, quote, a sink of localism, a den of ignorance
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and narrow mindedness, stop code.
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Of course, going to cities, markets are not a panacea by themselves.
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Change takes time, but it's a process in the right direction.
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And it is a process in which two great minds have been our moral guides, Baba Saheb Ambedkar
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics and behavioral
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Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen.
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My guest today is Chandrabhan Prasad, a Dalit scholar, journalist, writer and activist who
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is credited with coining the term Dalit capitalism.
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Chandrabhanji grew up in a small village, made his way to Delhi for higher education,
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went to JNU, became an axillite, took up arms, and later realized that while his fight for
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justice was an important one, the means through which he was pursuing it was wrong.
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He realized the power of markets and cities in empowering Dalits, especially after the
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liberalization of 1991.
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He has been a prolific columnist for this point of view and co-wrote the book Defying
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the Odds, The Rise of the Dalit Entrepreneurs with Devesh Kapoor and D. Shyam Babu.
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He's also written the books What is Ambedkarism and Dalitphobia.
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He was one of the driving forces behind DICCI DICCI, the Dalit Indian Chamber of Commerce
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and Industry, and was a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania.
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These days, he's a fellow at the Mercatus Center and was given a grant by Emergent Ventures
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which has led to him writing a couple of forthcoming books on the Dalit movement in India and indeed
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My frequent guest Shruti Rajagopalan works at Emergent Ventures, so when Chandrabhanji
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refers to Dr. Shruti in this conversation, that's who he means.
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This conversation blew my mind because while every non-blind Indian knows how pernicious
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a caste system is, the detailed lens that Chandrabhanji presented for me was an eye-opener.
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He gave me a new way to think about Gungats and the fall of female participation in the
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workforce and sunglasses and ponches and moustaches and long dhotis and even Indira Gandhi.
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All of these contain multitudes.
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And you'll find out why Dalits wearing white shirts is such a revolutionary act and why
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Chandrabhanji himself always wears a suit and speaks in English.
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It is not a question of status, but of escaping the many ways in which caste is embedded in
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Indian clothes and Indian languages and indeed Indian culture.
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But before we begin it, let's take a quick commercial break.
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Chandrabhanji, welcome to the Scene in the Unseen.
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You know, for a long time I've been thinking of inviting you on the show.
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Finally, I came to Delhi and got an opportunity so that you agreed to come.
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So, you know, I'd like to start by knowing more about you, you know, and starting with
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That, you know, where were you born?
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What was your childhood like?
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Before that, you know, what was the background like, about your family?
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So, I'd love to know more about it.
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So, my family was bit known for various reasons.
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And my grandfather became a Chowkidar with the British police.
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It was the lowest post, it is still the lowest post at police stations.
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But his brother, that means my grandfather's brother, evolved into a major social bandit.
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And he was, he died, he had broken prison once, Gorakhpur prison, and then he was recaptured
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and he joined, he died in Banaras Central Prison.
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So, he was so popular amongst the underclass, amongst Dalits, that after his death, my grandfather,
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that means his younger brother, was made the police Chowkidar.
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My father, there were four brothers, one by one, two of them migrated to Burma.
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Then there was World War II, and Indians were asked to leave this place.
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So they came back to India just before the end of World War II.
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So family had plenty of land.
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And in the family, all the four brothers, that my father and his three brothers were
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considered Muslim men, and my father was a wrestler.
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And everything looked well when I was born.
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But as I grew, I learned stories about the kind of time my father, my uncle had passed.
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For instance, and that's where the caste question comes up.
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Then my two uncles had migrated to Burma, and later they joined, I think in 41 or 42
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So before that, they were getting paid in silver and gold coins.
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So they decided to build a house back home.
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And those days, bricks were not traded publicly.
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So either the government needed bricks for government building, so they will have a private
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brick factory, or any landlord wanted to make a brick house.
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So when the family decided to make a big brick house, and preparations were on, the village
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landlord came to know about the plan of the family.
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And then he wrote his famous white horse came to our family, and then in a very subtle way,
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he threatened that the height of your house should not be beyond our house.
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So my uncle, the eldest one, he wrote a letter to my uncles in Burma that this is what landlord
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Then they said, what you do that you raise the platform of the place where you need to
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build the house higher, but build a house on that, but keep the height lower than the
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landlord's house, so a compromise was made.
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So when I grew up, I was growing up and then I heard this story, then several other stories
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of how landlords enjoyed their power, how they treated their praja, subjects, and the
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property, in particular, absence of currency in Dalit homes.
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There were separate food for Dalits, Dalits were not supposed to eat wheat, bread, and
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So slowly and slowly over a period of time or centuries, Dalits had a different civilization,
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others had a different civilization, Dalits were settled separately outside the village.
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My house was my hamlet is outside the mainstream village.
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So the food also differed, clothing differed, Dalits of my age hunted field rats, hunted
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fish, hunted other wild birds that the upper caste would never do.
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And therefore, Dalits were known that these are the people, they are Dalits, their cloth
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is like this, their ornaments are like this, their ways of life are like this.
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So basically, in terms of caste, there were three social blocks.
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One is upper caste, Brahmada, Kshatriya, Vaishya, those that have the right to wear sacred thread
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Then the Sudra, today's OVC, they were untouchables, they were not untouchables, but they were
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lower in hierarchy, untouchables were outside hierarchy.
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So we had those negative points in society that as Dalits we were doing, our sports differed
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from rest of them, our hunting season was always, you know, we hunted animals in water,
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we hunted animals on the earth, we hunted animals, birds in the sky on trees.
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So I grew up as an untouchable boy, but did not face much economic difficulty, did not
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face much economic difficulty and I was always taunted and that became this Dalit capitalism
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was somewhere there in my central nervous system, but I was never able to articulate
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or I was never able to see it because my brother became a sub-inspector in 1969 and he became
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a police head within years and when I became my college president, union president in 77,
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he sent me his bullet bike.
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So I was taunted not in my presence, in my absence by my class fellows, my friends, upper
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caste friends in the village about my dressing habits, my bullet and as if this is a kind
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of sacrilege I am doing.
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So somehow it was there all the time in my mind that as a Dalit, I was not supposed to
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dress well, I was not supposed to sport sunglasses, that particular reflective sunglasses which
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earlier Rajnikanth used to wear and later jokers took it.
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So that was considered and sort of that I am challenging society, I am daring society,
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but let me frankly say that I did not undergo those economic difficulties.
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The Dalits of my age in my village faced so much economic difficulty because they did
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In my family, at least two seniors were in government jobs, but they did not face the
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social challenge which I faced because nobody would taunt them for sporting sunglasses.
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Nobody would taunt them for wearing new clothes.
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So they were not facing those things.
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I was economically very well, but I was facing these taunts in society.
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So number of things I want to dig deeper into this.
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And the first thing I want to do is I want to ask you to give me a sense of history from
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the Dalit point of view from before independence because the traditional narratives which people
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like me have heard are blinkered narratives in the sense that they are either the British
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point of view or they are the very simplistic point of view that India was full of freedom
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fighters and we were fighting the British.
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But the truth is there were different kinds of oppression and that era, that time 1800s,
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1900s would not have looked the same to a Dalit as it would to say an upper caste person
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who can go and study law abroad and come back and join the freedom struggle and be whatever.
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And for them, they are thinking intellectually there is the oppression of the British.
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But from where you are, there are deeper oppressions that are there.
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It's not just the British, the British might be one level above and the British might even
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be a way out of the more local oppressions that you sort of face.
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When I started my book on Dalit capitalism, I told Dr. Shruti and some of very good well
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wishers in Delhi that the kind of life I have lived and the kind of life my Dalit fellows
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have lived doesn't find reflection in any academic work, not even in films, not even
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So I said, since there is no written narrative, I can only load all that on my soldiers and
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create new narratives that are never articulated.
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For instance, Dalits were considered assets.
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This might look ridiculous for a landlord.
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To explain that, I would take a different route.
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For instance, there is an upper caste landlord who lives in Newark, for instance, some district
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in Azamgarh, some village far away from the would-be bride's place.
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The bride lives in London.
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So the upper caste landlord from Newark, he takes his marriage party to London.
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The question is, how do the fellow upper caste Londoners know the status of the groom, how
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big he is, whether he is a landlord, capitalist, whatever.
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So the landlord would make several efforts to show off his strength, his wealth.
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Number one, he would take along many elephants.
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In some cases, not in my village, there were landlords who would take a hundred or more
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elephants in their weddings, followed by horses.
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Then the celebratory gunshots at the welcome site and the natchicals.
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Some would take, not in my village, a hundred natchicals.
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There have been cases where a landlord some 30 kilometers east to my village had a permanent
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Some 300 natchicals could live there in pukka houses and perform for at least four months
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So the landlord has as a symbol of his strength, elephants, horses, guns, natchicals then praja.
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So I have been into that role that the barat marriage procession that has started from
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New York and will go to London, there should be, and there are a thousand baratis, there
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should be a hundred or two hundred people who must look somewhat different from rest
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They were not expected to dress well, they were not expected to put oil in their hair,
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they were not expected to sport shoes or slippers.
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That is to make a statement that these are my praja, these are the people who serve us,
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I have been in several barats and there have been at times disputes that I will dress well
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and then only I will come.
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So this was not written, this is not written anywhere.
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We were separated while eating, separate queue, that is okay.
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Every one member from the entire Dalit hamlet is invited to eat food at the wedding when
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all have eaten and they will have to throw their plates themselves.
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Next morning, suppose there is the number of guests and hosts altogether that are to
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be fed is a thousand or two thousand, the landlord would deliberately prepare five hundred
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extra meals that will not be consumed by anybody.
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Next morning, members of praja, women in particular, have to go and collect food from the landlord
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and if a Dalit family did not come to collect food, that family would be marked that this
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family is now defying our commands.
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So in that way, Dalits were assets, where is that written?
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In any history, in any academic world, where is it written that when the groom's side
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reaches the bride's side, outside the village, a battlefield-like situation is created where
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in a mango orchard, the wedding party stays overnight or for two nights, three nights.
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They reach that mango orchard outside village, say by four in the evening.
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Then they are given bath, there is a big pond, they prepare themselves and before they move
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towards the bride's house, a battlefield-like situation is created where the bride's side
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and the groom's side stand face to face each other at a difference of say fifty feet.
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Then the third side is meant for prajas.
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The east side is taken by bridegroom and his five hundred, seven hundred thousand baratis.
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West side is taken by the girl's side.
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North side is taken by praja and praja must be there.
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It is the duty of praja to come and watch the reception ceremony.
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The southern side is open and then there is a drumming going on and then there is war
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Then suddenly one, two, three, four elephants appear in the scene and take a round of the
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battlefield and praja is supposed to clap.
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Then elephants disappear, then horses enter the ring.
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They make three, four rounds.
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Then the girl's side fires a gunshot to salute the barati side, groom's side.
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Groom's side is expected to fire two shots.
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The bride's side fires five shots.
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The groom's side returns back with ten shots.
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At places there have been hundred or more rounds of firing and then the girl's side
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bows down and then the groom's side marches ahead to the girl's side.
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And once they are there, the father of the groom or the uncle of the groom or his big
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brother, somebody from the boy's side, somebody from the groom's side throws coins in the
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The children of the praja are expected to collect and fight for those coins.
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So this would show that the boy's side is really rich, wealthy.
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And the girl's side has plenty of people, men, women, children who depend on their landlords
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for everything and now they are picking and fighting for those coins.
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Then after that the entire night, this dance girl would perform and in full public view,
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the elderly members of the Bharati's would at times take dance girls into their laps
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So that is how the upper caste power, you know, the Mao said power comes from the barrel
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Here the power comes from the arms of the natchigal that in full public view only an
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upper caste man can hold a young lady who is dancing into his laps and give her ten
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So where is that written?
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So the upper caste dominance became part of culture that this is what they are.
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And I have heard my Dalit seniors talking among themselves that if there is a war between
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Dalits and upper castes, all the elephants, all the horses, all the guns, even talwar
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would assemble at one place and finish us all.
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Not a police constable will come to protect us.
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So within the broader Indian state there was at work village republics, state within state.
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And Ambedkar mentioned it during the class by class debate on the constitution and he
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quotes Charles Metcalfe, Charles Metcalfe was son of the senior Metcalfe.
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He was born in Calcutta, as a child he was sent back to London for studies, he completed
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his college, came back to India, joined the company and he went on to become acting governor
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He toured India quite well and he came up with this idea that every village is a republic
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So when I look around, my village was a very poor republic, Romania, Czechoslovakia kind
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of poor republic, small village, small landlords and more upset to Dalits because there is
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a school and college within a distance of one kilometer, yet I could feel that they
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are the rulers and we are the prajas.
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So even accomplished Dalits would not walk into the upper caste side of the village with
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oil into their hair or slippers or shoes on their feet.
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Where is all that written?
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So I told Dr. Sursi that I will, since nobody has written it, I will explain it through
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my village, though my village is only say 15% of the kind of republic I am talking about.
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So then I find that there are, the India that I saw and the way India changed or transformed
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and the transformation is still going on, has no reflection anywhere in whatsoever form.
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So India is explained in terms of GDP, in terms of foreign exchange, in terms of industrialization,
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per capita availability of food, milk, food production, self-sufficiency, all these things,
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but not what I am talking about.
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The village republics, how they had their own rules, how a Dalit bride is not expected
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to maintain a veil, veil, ghumgat.
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So while it can be in a liberal progressive setup, it can be very well argued that nobody
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should have ghumgat, nobody should have prada.
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It looks very, very fair kind of thing.
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But upper caste women have this ghumgat for 15-20 years after, even after their marriage.
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Dalit women even for a week or so, coming in ghumgat, covering her face is considered
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So nobody has written this anywhere.
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Dalit, the kind of food Dalits eat, has anybody, maybe some people have written it about tribal
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society but not about my village, that Dalits in this village could go even up to eating
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jackals, cats, blind snakes, live-along crabs, the mud crabs that is a craze among the elite,
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all these kind of animals.
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At some places in south, people have written even crows in times of distress.
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So in that my book that I have submitted to the Markata Centre, I have explained this
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is Dalit food, this is not Dalit food, this is Dalit garment, this is not Dalit garment,
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this is Dalit jewellery, this is not Dalit jewellery.
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You know there is a term called fufuti.
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In my introduction to this book, I have said Dalit women's transformation from wearing
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fufuti style saree to plate style saree, this journey has been amazing.
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So if somebody has not, if there are no books on fufuti, what is fufuti style of saree?
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When millions and millions of women in the countryside dressed saree in a way where they
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will tie saree around their waist through a thin rope, and saree would be all would
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collect below the navel of the women where they will tie it through some rope and smaller
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than tennis ball type round shape thing would become visible.
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So if some lady is going on, fufuti lady, that means she is a Dalit woman, because they
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have to work in the fields, so they can't have saree tied loosely.
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Now plate means mainstream saree wearing.
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So this journey from fufuti style to plate style has not been explained anywhere, whatever
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little knowledge I have through my readings.
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I know the sayings people have about their past.
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When did you rise in the morning for the work at Landlord's field?
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They would say with the rise of Venus I think, at around 3.30 it rises and it is very bright.
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So they do not, they are short of words, terms, so they would not say pre-dawn or dawn.
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They would say we rise with the rise of Sukhavah, with the rise of Venus.
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So I don't see anywhere these things being explained.
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Then their working conditions, can anybody in this world who lives in cities and universities
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believe that Dalit men and women, when they would start for Landlord's field, would not
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The first water they would take is around 9.30 or 10 when they have their breakfast
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and this is not written anywhere.
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And the kind of food they eat, salt and roti, onion and roti, red chilli and roti, eating
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times of Praja, eating times of Praja, Landlord are quite different.
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Eating a rising time of Rajas and Prajas are quite continents apart.
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So I said that these are not written anywhere.
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So then the slow assertion of the Republic over village republics, that kind of process
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can be captured by scholars like Pratap Bhanu Mehta or Debesh Kapoor only.
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Such an interesting game, how the Indian Republic, the Indian police, the Indian revenue men,
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how they slowly and slowly intervened into village republics.
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And by the way, has anybody written on the social impact of PL 480 food imports from
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You talk to landlords, you talk to upper caste even today about PL 480 wheat.
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That was the food meant for American pigs.
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The wheat was so much in surplus that America forced it on Indians.
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Talk to an Indian, talk to a Dalit about those 480 wheat, they say, oh my God, that was so
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But ask a landlord about that wheat, I once ate it, it is so low quality, tasteless.
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Ask a Dalit aged 90 even today, okay, uncle, I believe the American wheat was tasteless.
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Breast would not come well, he says, we could not make this distinction because we never
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had an occasion to eat the Indian original wheat.
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So this perception of American wheat and taste in the imagery of Dalits and in the imagery
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of upper caste, say Raja and Praja, is there any book on this issue?
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And then state replacing landlords, you know, when I talk to landlords, they say a good
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landlord was expected to have food grains for his family and for his Praja for at least
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So after Indira Gandhi came to power, she went to the US and the food import jumped
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So during distress, that was the distress years, drought years, Praja is expected to
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go to landlord and landlord happily delivers grains to them, to the Praja.
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He takes back later, that's where landlord could enjoy his status, that yes, I am sitting
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here and there are 10 people in the queue.
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So now landlord is sitting in his house with his grains, Praja is taking a different route,
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trying to bypass the landlord's house like thieves and going to block to collect the
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So that was the first hairline fracture between the Praja and the Raja.
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For the first time Raja, that is upper caste, that is landlord, felt that Praja is subjects
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are now walking out of their system of control and dominance.
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So has anybody done any analysis of PL 480 wheat import?
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So I found that the Indian academia has not looked society and its pattern of change the
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way I have seen in my childhood.
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You know, one has of course read about Ambedkar writing about how villages are dens of localism
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and vice and so on and so forth, but the kind of detail in which you've described all of
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this in the last half an hour, I have never read anywhere.
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So you are right that, you know, it's not sort of written about and it's eye opening
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My next question for you is this, that there are many oppressions which are around us all
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the time have always been there and the typical reaction to these oppressions is sometimes
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Like for example, you know, women under the patriarchy will often normalize it and they
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will imagine in their heads ki aisa hi hai, zindagi aisa hi hai, we have to live like
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this and similarly you talk about this relationship between Raja and Praja, you know, such evocative
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phrases and one would imagine that a lot of people just would cope with it by thinking
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to themselves ki aisa hi hai, this is how life is.
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What was the process for you?
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Like did you, when did you start to question it?
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When did you start to say ki aisa hai lekin yeh galat hai?
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Like, you know, we often again just going back to that phrase freedom struggle, we talk
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about freedom struggle as India versus British, but yaha pe there is a freedom struggle that
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it feels to me was, you know, not articulated in the same way and the history of it wasn't
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captured in the same way and it's an ongoing struggle obviously.
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So personally when you were growing up, you know, what was your, what were the moments
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where you started questioning this and not accepting it ki, you know, in a normalized
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kind of way, but questioning it, what was that process like for you?
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Let me, let me cite an example.
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In my childhood, Dalits are not seen anywhere confronting the society.
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At places it would happen here and there, it was the state, it was between the state,
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the Indian Republic and the village Republic.
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My first sentence in the book on Dalit capitalism starts with a story and I'm going to that
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village within a few days.
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There is a village in Azamgarh district called Babuwan ki Khajuri, Babuwan means landlord's
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village called Khajuri.
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This village has had 22 big Jamidars, all the 22 Jamidars had elephants, all the 22
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Jamidars had at least one horse, some had two to three horses.
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And there was a somewhat liberal landlord called Thakur Markandey Singh.
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He was a Gandhian, a young collector came to Azamgarh, he got a posting.
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And since any collector who comes, who would join Azamgarh collectorate as the district
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head would visit, would make a visit to Babuwan ki Khajuri.
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So the collector found this Thakur Markandey Singh very interesting and the collector and
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it was since 1954, the collector Jamidari was abolished in 1951, Republic came into
#
So the collector and Jamidar Markandey Singh, Thakur Markandey Singh hatched a plan that
#
let us take this Babuwan ki Khajuri as a model, a model village that has turned against unfeasibility.
#
So as per the plan, the entire district administration arrived at the village.
#
Local officials had made arrangements for chairs, tables from nearby schools and Samyana,
#
and suites, water, all the 22 Babus were invited.
#
Praja was also invited, small landlords were also invited.
#
But the actual game was between the 22 Jamidar Thakurs and a Dalit youth who is neatly dressed.
#
So when all the 22 Jamidars had assembled and thousands of people, because collector
#
has come down there, district police chief has come down there, all big officers have
#
Then the collector stands and makes a statement that India is now a free country, Britishers
#
have left and unfeasibility is a real curse for this country, so let us remove it.
#
If we can remove Jamidari, we can remove unfeasibility also.
#
So hello Mr. Ramchandra or something, he raises his hands towards the Dalit man and he comes
#
and collector shakes hands with that Dalit man and there is a silence, oh my God, collector
#
is shaking hands with an untouchable, with a Dalit.
#
And he says now this Mr. Ramchandra will serve sweets and water to all of you to break free
#
from the circles of untouchability.
#
Then there is a Jamidar, he rises and starts walking away from this assembly.
#
Then Thakur Markandesingh says, hello sir, why are you going away from here?
#
He says, well, all those who have taken Takabi from the collectorate, Takabi is a kind of
#
financial help to dig wells and ponds and all those things that comes for free.
#
So those who have taken Takabi, that means money from the district collector for free
#
are welcome to have sweets from a Dalit, I have not taken Takabi.
#
Then rest 21 Babu said, none of us, we also have not taken any Takabi from the state,
#
so they also followed the Thakur and boycotted the function.
#
The state in the countryside is, the Indian Republic in the countryside is represented
#
by its district collector.
#
And in broad daylight, the Indian Republic faces defeats from the village republic and
#
they could not do anything.
#
So this battle between the village republic and the Indian republic, this entire phase
#
from say 1950 till early 70s has not been explained by any scholar.
#
Now coming to the women question, you know, this is really funny, I keep reading reports
#
that are well documented and the planners worrying about all these things that you know
#
women workforce participation is declining and this is a real big concern when things
#
are going well, why are women workforce declining in the countryside?
#
So this is really funny and this also shows how poor the Indian planning mind is.
#
Let me recall, my house in my Dalit hamlet is centrally located and it is big, there
#
is a plenty of place there, people gather there, during rain people will come there,
#
if something happens people will come there, if some hawker comes selling something will
#
So when marriages were settled earlier through the marriage settlers and the marriage settler
#
would tell good things about the boy's side to the girl's side.
#
So that negotiations would take place in my house.
#
So I went to confirm for this book and stayed for weeks in my village of my relatives.
#
So the guy who is negotiating the deal, he would say, you know, women of this Dalit house
#
don't go to landlord's fields to work for wages, yes, yes, and you know in that family
#
there are two men with big belly and there is a young boy, he has pointed moustache.
#
And I recall my childhood, I was considered a good boy.
#
So there were seven or eight migrant families to Bombay and Calcutta.
#
So they were very poor, most of them would raise pigs for their extra income.
#
So I would be asked to go and write letters for them to their migrant members of the family
#
and read their letters back.
#
So I have at least two instances where I read letters from a migrant who was settled in
#
Bombay that he is telling his parents, I will send 10 rupees a month every month before tenth
#
My only plea is, please ensure that my mother, my sister, my wife, no women from the family
#
would go to work for landlords.
#
So what is a matter of freedom to the Dalits?
#
That yes, my daughter, my sister, no one from the family would go to work for landlords.
#
It is a symbol of emancipation.
#
But the same is a question of concern that why are women not working in the fields?
#
So this is how disconnected the advanced Indian, well-trained Indian mind is, how insensitive
#
the progressive mind is in so far as understanding society is concerned.
#
So as I was telling you about the Dalit struggles, it was 1974 or early 1975, there is a village
#
called Sherpur in Ghazipur district of Ajamgarh.
#
I wouldn't say it was a massacre because only two, three people were shot dead, but the
#
entire village was attacked by landlords.
#
Dalits were resisting two things that landlords take beggar from them and work without payment.
#
And two, they eve-tease Dalit women working on their fields.
#
So to teach Dalits a lesson, they attacked Dalits burnt houses, dozens were injured,
#
two or three were murdered.
#
That was a rupture in the consciousness of Dalits.
#
To protest that, Dalits from my village organized an Ambedkar Jayanti on April 14th.
#
My brother was a police station, police sub-inspector.
#
His batch mate was posted in our local police station.
#
And my cousins went there and they mentioned my brother's name.
#
So they said, what can I do?
#
Tell us if there is any problem.
#
He said, we want to celebrate Ambedkar Jayanti and we want presence of two police constables.
#
And that event became so famous in the entire area that from next year onwards, organizing
#
Ambedkar birth anniversary became the greatest form of resistance.
#
Then followed this registry business that whenever some atrocity takes place, Dalits
#
would collect money, small amounts, go to Tahsil, get an application complaint typed
#
and they would insert it into an envelope and put a stamp and send it to district collector,
#
district SP, chief minister, governor, president of India, prime minister.
#
They would send those letters.
#
That was the biggest, as far as my knowledge goes, biggest method of resisting atrocities
#
Have you read any book on this?
#
So it's completely blank.
#
I think people like Pradhan Banu Mehta and Devesh Kapoor, they can write Das Kapital
#
How things have gone completely unnoticed.
#
So my brush with this resistance came in 1977 when after emergency Janata Party came to
#
power and in every degree college, inter-college, there were student union being formed.
#
Dalit was trying to contest from degree college that is one kilometer away from my house,
#
my village and he was threatened into withdrawing from upper caste student leaders.
#
Then I came to know and Dalits said, you contest.
#
So I contested and then I had to, it has to be a bloody big battle.
#
So Dalits from my village came with whatever daggers and all those things, they came flashing
#
it openly on the day I filed the nomination.
#
So I became a college president and we led agitation with this against the college management
#
because they used to take away one month of scholarship from Dalits as contribution to
#
the college building construction.
#
It is during that period first Communist Party of India, local guys came in my contact but
#
slowly they were replaced by CPIML group, two notable teachers and by 1978 I was a soft
#
Naxal already and I switched over to Delhi, JNU for my MA in 1980.
#
Then a new life begins.
#
A lot of things I want to dive into including of course your personal story but one of the
#
things that I am really struck by is how a lot of things that we take for granted take
#
on a new layer of meaning when you look at it through a different gaze.
#
For example you speak about the Gungat.
#
Now in some narratives a Gungat is a symbol of patriarchy and oppression of women but
#
in your narrative it was the absence of a Gungat not being allowed to put a Gungat that
#
In some narratives women stopping to work not working outside the house is a symbol
#
of patriarchy and oppression but in your narrative it is a symbol of freedom if you look at it
#
through a different gaze and the shifting of the gaze like looking at little things
#
like reflective sunglasses or many other things that you have mentioned like being able to
#
go on a horse with a sword in your hand to your own wedding.
#
You know you have written about an incident where a Dalit wanted to go to his own wedding
#
with a horse and a sword and that was stopped and to someone like me you know a horse and
#
a sword is just something that is there in every wedding you don't think about it but
#
if you look at it from another gaze it is such a powerful symbol it is a symbol of empowerment
#
that you want to be able to do that.
#
You spoke about food also and you know and I have read your writings on it and whatever
#
you said about Dalit foods and again that was stuff I did not know I did not imagine
#
that like I thought that what you eat depends on your social class per se.
#
If you are well off you can afford better food if you are not so well off you are eating
#
more frugally and of course there are certain people who are vegetarian there are certain
#
people who are non-vegetarian but the kind of detail into which you have gone I wasn't
#
I will ask you about two more aspects of these differences which are unseen to people like
#
me right and which I learnt about from your writings.
#
One is clothes and one is language right.
#
So I would like you to talk a little bit about these because you wrote this great piece on
#
the importance of wearing suit boot you know what it means for a Dalit and why other Indian
#
clothes and all are so problematic if you look at it from a particular gaze.
#
I would love it if you could elaborate on that.
#
You know when it comes to suit and boot during emergency a folk song had just evolved all
#
of a sudden the dancers in small notunky drama parties would sing a song oh my god the world
#
has changed the Samar woman is sporting slippers Dhobin Vasa woman is sporting sandals oh my
#
god the world has changed so much then came the film you know I am just forgetting the
#
name of the film I will just recall.
#
You would know I think it came in 74 or 75 that the filmmaker
#
is wondering that there would be a new epoch new era where the upper caste men would collect
#
small fallen grains to eat and these Dalits will be eating all these fancy foods.
#
So there is so much of social tension on the kind of food you ate and the kind of dress
#
I distinctly remember there used to be a Dalit who became inspector and he was very talkative
#
he died few years back he was very talkative he became inspector in the department of electricity
#
and whenever he would come home he would always speak in straight Hindi proper Hindi and at
#
local bazaar nearby my village where which has a college which has an intermediate school
#
so he will serve give people offer tea samosa etc but he will he had a scooter so there
#
are people who would say just who would just pass by him and and say and would would would
#
will ensure that he'll he overhears he he's speaking look at this guy he got into government
#
job and now he speaks Farsi.
#
So even a proper Hindi forget English was Dalits when they spoke they were mocked that
#
bloody he is speaking Farsi if you made a pagdi headgear bloody he's acting like a Thakur
#
if you had there are so many so many maybe a million events of tension when Dalits when
#
some Dalits wore dhoti till their toe and they were attacked and it is well documented
#
in a book written by a scholar he teaches in Indira Gandhi Open University I just forgotten
#
his name he's come from Mojapur there was a mister the former leader Mr. Mahend Singh
#
Tiket was going to hold up was holding holding a panchayat in a Dalit in a village where
#
Jats Jats and Dalits were at loggerheads so when some journalists asked what is the reason
#
for this dispute which you are going trying to resolve he said there is no dispute it
#
is the problem has come up from the Dalit side why is there a need to to wear dhoti
#
till toe why are Dalits teaching of upper caste so it is a new discipline it has not
#
been ever ever explored the violence on the due to due to clothing the violence due to
#
certain food habits I know a distant relative he became a police inspector later he had
#
hunted a big fish during rains it was snatched by village landlords even if village landlord
#
doesn't know that that you have caught a big fish fish worth say one kg two kg the
#
Dalits would the catcher would know the hunter would know that if not today tomorrow it will
#
be known to the landlords so they would go and surrender the fish to the to their respective
#
landlord so so much of tension on the question of food lifestyle and and and newer ways modern
#
ways your outlook going to school going to medical science entering into engineering
#
colleges were all considered an offense and if not that Dalits were fighting state was
#
fighting for on behalf of the list and before I forget let me tell you the other other comedy
#
you speak to any top Indian social scientists or political scientists about emergency oh
#
my god the freedom of expression suspended censor all these things leaders put behind
#
bars and election suspended all these things is that the only truth during emergency a
#
new term came all over India for the list in my area it came as Dalit damad are a to
#
the list the list are now governments son-in-laws how come untouchables become states son-in-law
#
it was called Sarkari damad in Tamil Nadu it was called government Brahmins it had some
#
name in this part of the country or that part but it was all India how could it spread so
#
fast all over India that the list have become son-in-laws of state because by 75 let me
#
ask you a question and through your platform let any Indian answer me any Indian scholar
#
when India was hurtling towards green revolution by 72 Indian government had stopped taking
#
PL 480 wheat pakaran angle had been activated electricity was now being produced Americans
#
were building 13 agricultural universities all over India things were improving India
#
had won a war with Pakistan Bangladesh liberation why was at that particular point
#
a rebellion against Indira Gandhi number one and let me ask and let let let there be any
#
honest mind to answer it was there any connection between anti Indira Gandhi forces in 74 and
#
anti Indira Gandhi forces at the time of the nationalization of banks who became prime
#
minister after janta party came to power Mr. Dasai who whom Indira Gandhi had bypassed
#
in bringing this bank nationalization laws Mr. Dasai the entire group that had expelled
#
Indira Gandhi from Congress party that is the group that initiated anti Indira campaign
#
so how blind Indian scholars could be to not to find a connection between the two and then
#
is there any book why only should Chanbhaam Prasad say you you go and interview a thousand
#
a million Dalits in Tamil Nadu and UP and ask have you heard the term Dalit Damad how
#
Sarkari Damad Sarkar the government was doing everything for the list so it was a it was
#
a you know certain like many parts put together make a machine bike or a aeroplane 1951 Jamidari
#
abolition 1961 first land ceiling act then PL 480 feet import or grain imports then 1972
#
much radicalized form of land ceiling act by Indira Gandhi then the land patta distribution
#
all over India is there any book the social implication of the land patta distribution
#
to the list that Indira Gandhi you know in north India at least in my village farmland
#
is as as precious as your own life people murder brothers murder brother father murder
#
son son murders father on the question of land and why this Indira Gandhi the bloody
#
bitch snatching lands from the village common land and giving it to these Dalits untouchables
#
has there been any intellectual reflection on this entire phase of post-independence
#
India so there is a great field of inquiry why anti Indira this revolt occur and whether
#
the there existed a connection between anti Indira forces during bank nationalization
#
and previous evolution and land patta distribution and mandatory admission of Dalits into engineering
#
colleges and IITs and scholarships a very tiny Dalit I would not say middle class Dalits
#
had become visible with white shirts this Indian entire Indian academy academia history
#
journalism is all absolutely silent on this such a such a hugely you know it's like if
#
it's like a flight from Delhi to Kerala during monsoon every day is a history bookday in
#
my childhood the way that the grim pattern between the public and village publics has
#
there been any any book on the significance of this all Indian scholars duffer not to
#
understand the social meaning of this song hi how can I smell some message in this song
#
and the chappal prachamayin chale sandil par dhubiniya hai more Rama badal gayil duniya
#
you know so since I have got some friends like Pratap Banu Mehta, Devesh Kapoor and
#
Dr. Sruti that I have been allowed to recall the past and put into book form and and thanks
#
to you for this platform so you know the answer to your rhetorical question is of course this
#
hasn't been written about or if it has I haven't read it except from little bits of your writing
#
so I'll ask you to elaborate on this because this really fascinates me that this frame
#
that you have introduced to me of village republics versus the state republic and what's
#
going on here and you talk about how between the 50s and the early 70s the village republic
#
is winning is beating the state republic but then things start to turn around and you mentioned
#
that period in the 70s also can you elaborate on it historically for me to sort of talk
#
about what was going on there like how you know how did it turn around this battle between
#
the village republics and the state republic as you put it and give me a sense of Dalit
#
struggles through this entire period because we have all read the history of India through
#
other prisms so you know give me a sense of this journey.
#
You know now I in my childhood I wasn't a scholar or a thinker I just hear things and
#
then leave then I started traveling for this book last year and started talking to since
#
I was a college union president and I had become a bit popular for raising public issues
#
I know so many people so many of my friends who dropped out after the college settled
#
back into their villages so I recall my classmates I say that do you remember do you remember
#
or not there is to be a teacher who was newly recruited teacher of arithmetic in high school
#
he was joined the school in ninth when we were ninth and midway class tenth he got some
#
job government job he left so he's son of a landlord and it's not a social science
#
course subject he would every month find or sometimes every week find some reason to curse
#
Indira Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru that bloody he was a Muslim he ate cow meat he drank
#
Daru he had hundreds of girlfriends and this bitch Indira Gandhi she has married a Muslim
#
and she also smokes and she has both father and daughter have unsettled a well settled
#
society there is a I am going to interview a teacher he was a bit liberal he was a congressman
#
so he was telling me few years back when I asked that how did when used campaign for
#
Indira Congress party in 77 how what was the reaction of your upper caste fellows he said
#
you know they were all accusing me of being a bloody fool for siding with Indira Gandhi
#
who has destroyed our society so I met one of my teachers who introduced Maoism to me
#
that what all you wanted to change that Indira Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru did they destroyed
#
the village republics they brought Dalits out of the control and command system of upper
#
caste so they are better naxals than you he said he says all right tell me about your
#
children how are they doing and all that he is not prepared to discuss all these things
#
so this at every you know land is the most precious things Jamidari evolution had taken
#
place they lost land elephants fled from their home from their homes horses disappeared within
#
a decade or so the last asset they had after land horses and elephant was Praja Praja also
#
started moving out of their control system so this battle is not fought by progress forces
#
of reform progress political parties this battle has been taking place between the state
#
and the village republics after 90 the situation changes where market is now fighting the whatever
#
was remnants of caste order market has become a has become a new social revolutionary how
#
so ever unintended it may be market has made money more important than caste this too has
#
not been written about recently I wrote and many people were angry some angry in a very
#
friendly manner that you are saying that when I visited my mama's Nana's house after
#
such a long gap I found many Dalits with the tooth is considered as in the in the cities
#
and in India International Center and elsewhere as a bad health symptom but in the countryside
#
oh my god three members in that family have tooth that is the family is well fed and Dalits
#
also now have there are Dalits in every village who have who are diabetic now for a scholarly
#
mind this would look funny that bloody they are suffering from diabetic and Channam Shah
#
is saying this is a symbol of progress first ever in my lifetime I see Dalit elderly having
#
leisure time that doesn't mean they have become equal to landlords and equal to Tatas
#
and everybody for the first time and even further first ever I see the elderly Dalits
#
feet that are not cracked and the blood is not coming out in my childhood I have seen
#
almost every second Dalit elderly Dalit men and women's feet with the heavily cracked
#
and the blood you know comes out in such a manner that you can't see that there is a
#
blood coming out but you can see red lines and they remain in pain for 20 years 30 years
#
till their death how come there is no PhD title the end of cracked heels and with that
#
the sufferings so this transformation has not been accounted for not explained not even
#
being explained and the 19 the 2012 protest at Delhi by Anna Hazare who sold the EDM Bharat
#
barbaad ho gaya so is there any point in the history of India that is documented where
#
India was in any on any parameters better than the India during 2010 12 14 on any account
#
so this anger against this republic is you know identified with Congress party with Nehru
#
with Indira so when you say somebody is speaking against Nehru in Delhi you still think that
#
this man is a fool why is he is beating a dead horse in the countryside when you go and
#
tell Nehru to tell ask a landlord he was a bad man he destroyed us he finished us and
#
Indira Gandhi she was a bitch she took away the village surplus land she made Dalit heroes
#
she left us wounded so somewhere some reflection of all these things that have happened should
#
be seen so I told Dr. Shruti that I will carry this picture on my shoulders because there
#
is no no literature literature to quote and that's why I said it is slightly autobiographical
#
so again this is you know it's such a fascinating lens to look at periods of history we are
#
familiar with people that we are familiar with and you know to sort of re-examine them
#
and add this lens to the others through which we already look at them I was also struck
#
by you know and this is of course a recent piece you wrote talking about how Adam Smith
#
and Ambedkar both lifted this village out and the village you are referring to is I
#
think your mother's native village Tofapur so you speak about how people have ponches
#
and how people are living sedentary lives and with that's a good thing and how they
#
have moustaches which they weren't allowed to earlier and in some somewhere else you
#
also wrote about another symbol of empowerment which I would never have thought of in that
#
light you spoke about shampoo where you pointed out that you measured you did a study where
#
you measured the economic progress of Dalits by what they shopped for and you found that
#
in 1990 of the places you surveyed less than 0.85 percent of Dalit families use shampoo
#
and in 2007 that number was 81 percent of people using shampoo regularly yes earlier
#
Dalit women used to wash their hand with a special clay found in villages village ponds
#
upper caste women at that time they used to use plants of shikakai I suppose as shampoo
#
and they had plenty of plants so they had this shikakai so one could easily distinguish
#
between a Dalit woman and a non-Dalit woman if one happens to go inside their house that
#
what is the kind of you know it might look something one can might smell something racial
#
about this thing I never thought that in my lifetime Dalit women Dalit women I do not
#
mean the Dalit women from the Dalit middle class society village the Dalit women buying
#
fair and lovely cream and Dalit young boys smoking cigarette so a progressive intellectual
#
at University of Pennsylvania and Harvard and London School of Economics would say Mr.
#
Prasad are you selling cancer so I asked a teacher he said in Hindi the mean I when I
#
translate he says caste is worse than cancer so even if you have you have you have money
#
to buy cigarette you have you had to smoke cigarette secretly that is all about freedom
#
not about equality so Dalit men smoking cigarette is is symbolizes their you know
#
having come of age and the the Dalit women using fair and lovely cream
#
also symbolizes their you know having come of age I could never think that young Dalit
#
schoolgirls would apply lipstick soft lipstick and look for packaged kajal and then you go
#
and talk to there is a professor in Delhi University she just retired from a college
#
she was talking to some upper caste women she had a project in Azamgarh district and she says
#
they figured out that this lady is also upper caste and they said they are so abusive of Dalit
#
women that these bitches have left our house left us they have left us bloody we have to do all
#
ourselves so when the a great scholar at the day school of economics is worried that Dalit men
#
workforce participation of Dalit women is declining he is not you know it is like this
#
Congress party with the midday meal scheme gave a priority to Dalit's health over Dalit's education
#
so it might look very sexy that unless you have proper food how can you pursue
#
how can you pursue good education how did the Dalits of my time pursue and became
#
doctors engineers from the two teacher school Harijan Vidyalaya so-called so congress replaced
#
replaced slates with plates that's the difference the people sitting in planning
#
commission should understand and that that my famous battle with the battle of planning
#
commission when I fought with Montekin all over here and I said he said what is your
#
complaint I said I have this the battle began at the reception the reception guys were saying what
#
is this chemicals you are carrying I said no this is a orange juice 200 ml this is
#
sugarcane juice 200 ml he said drink and drink a bit so I drank both one by one they said okay
#
what is this I said this is a roti made up of this chonkar what is chonkar when you
#
crush the wheat small small pieces and inner brawn would be used in making chapatis okay
#
okay I told him I asked he said what is your main complaint I said the intellectual side of
#
the planning commission is very poor it's rotten I said I have proof I said this 200 ml I have
#
I have drank a bit at reception it has 54 calorie
#
the same bottle of sugarcane juice it was November it has 184 calorie or 180 calorie
#
I said all the food Dalit's ate are heavily carbohydrate based and the food at in South
#
Delhi homes is less on carbohydrate more on protein and other minerals and if there is an honest
#
and if there is an honest inquiry then they all the members of India international center would
#
win red cards over the list so 22 calorie based or 27 calorie based measurement of
#
of poverty is absolutely nonsensical and since then we became became friends so
#
you know despite such wondrous impact of economic reforms ask any common man
#
about its impact the common man will say because the economic reforms people have marketed economic
#
reforms through citing figures of GDP foreign exchange reserves malls and roads and expansion
#
of cities and and all that the common people you have not said that did your grandfather have a
#
phone did he wear slippers in his marriage so they did not sell economic reforms that has brought
#
freedom to Dalits that's where Adam Smith comes into being and my friend say what all you are
#
saying is absolutely correct we didn't know but why to put Ambedkar and Adam Smith on the same
#
pedestal I said that is the truth what can I do so Ambedkar brought state capitalism
#
Adam brought capitalism so we can discuss this after tea break yeah let's let's take a quick
#
break and after that we'll continue
#
have you always wanted to be a writer but never quite gotten down to it well I'd love to help you
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of what you need to do to refine your skills I can help you welcome back to the scene in the
#
unseen I'm chatting with Chandrabhan Prasad Chandrabhanji you know a lot of the phrases
#
you used during you know during the first half and the images you came up with are so resonant
#
I was really struck by the what the gentleman you quoted saying cast is worse than cancer
#
yes or you put an image in my mind Dalits wearing white shirts yeah you know very resonant and in
#
fact you have written about clothes also in detail where you've you know described the 1893
#
revolt of Mahatma Ayyankali and spoken about how that was an important point in the Dalit struggle
#
for self-esteem and one of the things he did was he dressed like a nair from toe to neckline sporting
#
a white pagri stop quote and elsewhere you've spoken about the Perinath mutiny of 1915 or
#
waha pe you've written about how you know women in the Perinath village which is now in the Kullam
#
district set their Kallumala ornaments on fire and these were made from stone and they were
#
Dalit ornaments so you know just got such a vivid sense of the importance of all these Monday what
#
seems mundane to us but is actually so important language ke baare me bhi batahiye because you know
#
you you have spoken earlier about the importance of English in Dalit empowerment how there is a
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temple to English in this particular village but I always looked at it from one point of view I
#
thought ke theke English will obviously be important because it opens doors to jobs and
#
it is in that way of a tool of empowerment but what you have also pointed out is that
#
Indian languages carry within them the caste system whether you are saying pranam to someone
#
or whether you're using common phrases like chorichamari or ye to bhangi hai you know and
#
most people don't realize it they use these terms automatically but our society is embedded in our
#
languages and therefore that is another reason why Indian languages you know from your gaze are so
#
problematic elaborate on this a bit because I never thought of language from you know and the
#
embeddedness of society in it in the way that you've described celebration of Lord Macaulay on
#
October 25 2006 it was covered by union express on its front page and economist wrote a
#
a editorial describing me as Don Kijot who is going to accept Macaulay as a father of
#
Indian modernity modernity today there are hundreds of there are at hundreds of places
#
every year October 25 Lord Macaulay's birthday is celebrated at that time and then many television
#
debates followed so there was a RSS ideologue on the show in one of the television debates he says
#
Mr Prasad don't think that I am opposed to English I am opposed to Angrejit then I figured
#
out the true meaning of English because English is is is not just a tongue it's a civilization
#
let me contrast whenever I would meet a local uppercast man say when when I was 20 years in age
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I have to say Pradham Pradham the response from the other side is not Pranam Khusro beta be happy
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does it happen the same way in English and whenever you say Namaste Pranam your head is
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always a bit down when you say good morning automatically your left hand right hand goes
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up your head goes up and the other side will say good morning you say hi the other side will say
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hi so there is plenty of level playing field dress English dress it destroys the English
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it destroys the the design of the Hindi dress or Telugu dress where Dalits were not supposed to
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wear dhoti beyond their knees and they had to wear shirt without collar
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but English they spent you can't do anything either it has to be half pant that is your school
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student or it has to be full pant and Pagdi there are so many ways caste identified headgears
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English it is cap or hat and the entire notion towards life you tend to be
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western if you are English educated then your dining table must have spoons
#
and you have middle class member then plates your entire architecture your table you know
#
the traditional way of Hindi eating eating go to Sanskriti Patsala Lal Bahadur Shastri Sanskriti
#
University near JNU you are supposed to sit on the floor and eat you see many
#
you see many BJP leaders who go to Dalit houses to dine with they sit on the floor
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so here you you have a table chair table spoon plates there is no hierarchy here
#
so and then you turn to be western and by definition you turn to be
#
pro-democracy pro-science so you see English has it's a that kind of civilizational personality
#
so I do not say that is to learn English as a language I say learn
#
and that's why I sport suit and boot Ambedkar sported suit and boot when Bombay was so humid
#
and there were no air conditioners in the first half of 20th century not in office not in house
#
not in courtrooms not in assembly houses yet he sported a coat and he launched his
#
mahar satyagraha he wore a coat when the temperature was 42 degree celsius so
#
and the the British could easily identify with Ambedkar they could they could really relate to
#
him he sported hat not gandhi topi he did not wear dhoti he was always in suit he spoke good English
#
so the English man could easily relate to him and invite him in 1942 cabinet formation so to us to me
#
English is a civilization and there is no way Dalit can ever claim to be a civilizational person
#
English is a civilization and there is no way Dalit can ever claim independence from all these
#
things freedom from all these things except in a western kind of setup
#
I'll just quote these lines from one of your pieces which of course I'll link from the show
#
notes where you know you have written how English can help you break the backbone of the caste
#
system where you've written quote for centuries Dalit could not marry outside their cast to maintain
#
caste purity but if a Dalit knows English then there is no way he will be climbing a toddy tree
#
and end up doing a manual job the English-speaking Dalit will not be made a sweeper or cleaner of
#
toilets good knowledge of English will emancipate him and give him leverage to liberate himself from
#
traditional occupations stop quote and I was also struck by you know this goddess of English this
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temple in banka village which you made and and you wrote about how you wanted it to be a symbol of
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Dalit resistance so you know this two feet tall goddess of English you know has a pen in her right
#
hand she is dressed well she is wearing a top hat you know instead of some Indian thing and in her
#
left hand she is holding the constitution and she's standing on top of a computer stop quote and it's
#
just so resonant that's that's a western civilization that's a western civilization and
#
more western Dalit becomes more powerful he becomes that even if somebody wants to attack
#
that kind of Dalit finds it difficult to attack because he has that you know that
#
that he has he's a metaphor now symbolizing modernity science literature clothing machine
#
like computers so when I was trying to make this temple I didn't say that then to study in
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in English if you is I'm an atheist but a goddess was born in my house I thought this
#
medium will spread the message of angrily get faster than me going to every house and
#
telling every child you study English and dress well and all that so and and now the fact that
#
that is celebrate celebrate my college day birthday as a English day is my little victory
#
without any sponsorship from the queen British queen or any such place
#
let's go back to your personal story you know when we left off on that narrative
#
you were doing your MPhil and at one point you started a PhD but you didn't finish it
#
and you were getting drawn to naxalism so take me about through this journey of yours like if I'm
#
looking at the young Chandrabhan Prasad you know describe him for me you know what were the things
#
that animated you and how did you feel that you can change the world well in 1978 when I was a
#
president of the students union we launched an agitation against the college management
#
and then the two naxal gurus got me one was my he's still alive my inter college and he lived in a
#
hostel one bedroom kind of hostel meant for faculty in Maladari so whenever I would go there
#
my teacher's wife she's now a teacher would her husband and me would eat together
#
same plate same thing same glasses and she would wash in front of me the plates and then he would
#
talk about new democratic revolution and our chairman your chairman is our chairman and
#
our chairman your chairman is our chairman so I thought unless this upper caste man is true
#
truth is beaten he would not feed me in his plates he would not feed me eat with his family
#
when I went to azamgarh and met the superior guru abrahamine teacher of
#
chemistry and well known as a very good teacher his family would also treat me
#
like any of their relatives so that was my my instant that caused instant attraction towards
#
marfism and in that extreme form of marfism that is nationalism or maoism we used to call CPI-ML
#
CPI-ML with that respect
#
for these two teachers that they must be they are not at all practicing
#
untagability they are actually rejecting untagability so my faith in nationalism became
#
because of that not that I read mark and lenin and mao very well and I was young 19 year old man so
#
power comes from the ballot of gun that also had an appeal when I
#
went to JNU in 1980 to pursue my higher education there were two three groups CPI-ML groups from
#
Andhra Pradesh from vihar and then I found many people like me and I started getting deeper and
#
deeper and deeper into that at one point of time I purchased military uniform I purchased a big boot
#
I purchased a cap but they didn't have that red that kind of stuff that mao used to have
#
so it took days for me to get somebody to stitch that red color kind of thing and I started believing
#
that I am a potential mao and when you go for your MPL and PhD in final years you have to
#
choose your area study so I chose eastern east asia in that china and got even closer to
#
maoism kind of ideology and then my party set up a unit in Delhi and I became part of that
#
and started dreaming of revolution I was distracted from my studies at least one friend kept telling
#
me that you are walking a wrong path first you study became a professor or a IS officer then do
#
something this that but every summer vacation I would go home and that these teachers would tell me
#
that all that indira gandhi has done is to prevent this very revolution she is inducting the list into
#
IITs medical colleges giving jobs in railways postal services banks here and there is to prevent
#
this revolution and then I would believe all that without making any objection and when the great
#
student movement of 1983 took place I was one of the front line leaders and there were a little bit
#
of flower pots breaking and all those things and Gherow was actually a kind of soft violence
#
Gherow of vice chancellor and then we were arrested and university was closed sign a die
#
then we were issued so-called notices why should not you be investigated notices were issued to so
#
many hundreds of students finally 44 were pinpointed and then there was a prithviraj commission
#
a retired judge of rajasthan high court he kept telling us boys don't insist
#
you that you are part of the movement just say sorry and you have long career to go 13 of us
#
I think seven eight pro-Naxals are Naxals and rest Gandhians stood our ground that yes we
#
participated in in the moment we led the moment but where is the violence so we were resticated
#
for many months we roamed around JNU campus slept on the ground ate the leftover food in the mess
#
then we were barred from entering campus then the campus was shut down and then finally our party
#
unit decided to dispatch me to my to the Uttar Pradesh unit where I would formally join
#
the CPI ML in Varanasi in a cousin brother's railway quarter I reached early in the morning
#
one of my cousin brothers who also became Naxal he was supposed to join us and celebrate my joining
#
the party so there he did not come to attend the meeting he was very punctual used to be punctual
#
we were all worried and a big leader from Krakata had come to witness my joining the party he came
#
next day and he said something to them in their ears and then I was told that my father has passed
#
away so we will I joined the party and left for home and and then I thought I should be there with
#
my mother for a few months somehow the people started talking about me why is he not going back
#
to Delhi one month passed two months passed three months passed then the party gave us the duty to
#
educate and make cadres in villages here and there so there was no party presence anywhere so
#
I would go to my relatives places my cousin brother would always accompany me we used to have a
#
six round I used to have carry a six round revolver always loaded so I had asked during my joining
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I thought that I am going to join the party I am going to commit my life also for the sake of
#
revolution I said how are we going to challenge the Indian state in terms of logistics so I was
#
told that and now since I am a student of Chinese politics I know those days China was a backward
#
society Mao could lead the revolution then I was told that
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was Mao MA from JNU no you are MA from JNU you are much more knowledgeable than Mao
#
so when the society has and country has progressed you have also our cadres have also become
#
more powerful than the previous revolutionaries then I said all right then how will
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how will such a great country how will we mobilize millions and millions of Indians
#
then I was told that it's like something similar to you know Newton electronic hydrogen bombs
#
something atomic energy that you pick up a village convert four Dalits from that village
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like you who commit their life for the revolution and then each one will spread to another four
#
villages then another four villages so like that it will within few years we will have converted
#
the entire countryside into a revolutionary zone when I actually started going to people they
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to people they thought they were more keen in getting into cities for jobs
#
then encircling cities from countryside and sometimes they would sleep while we speak of
#
new democratic revolution and what would be India post-revolution and China could threaten America
#
India could also threaten America and all those things people were not interested
#
and in fact one of my cousins at my village he said I think I have become half-mind
#
I'm not mentally okay and this is spread like wildfire that the that Mr. Chandram Prasad has
#
is somewhat mentally disturbed he's not going and joining back his education and going around
#
villages talking some nonsense people were more interested in talking about then I also got bored
#
then I was losing interest what is this there is no revolution happening only we have two pistols
#
with us revolvers with us and there is none else following us all this how long I was started I
#
started then I was posted in Varanasi first in Azamgarh to publish a open magazine that would
#
advocate the cause of prisons and workers then I was sent out to Varanasi without a proper place
#
to stay I would stay here there my cousin brother's railway quarter then I found two of my juniors
#
who had left JNU because there was a you know she was closed cyanide so they were rejoined
#
BHU and they were living in Budila hostel so I would go and I started staying with them and
#
and sometimes I would speak English so someone was I heard someone I was a smoker saying that
#
you know that when people lose mental balance they speak English and they speak English very
#
loudly so I thought bloody it is spreading here also then I met Dalit who was doing his M.Tech
#
with IIT Kashi he asked me a pointed question how did you reach JNU he said I am from Patna
#
I know about nationalism I know this faction of CPI Ambal that faction Vinod Mishra this all that
#
I know did you use reservation I said yes you forgot you forgot Ambedkar I said not that way
#
he said no no you forgot Ambedkar if Jamidari could be abolished without gun if Dalit could
#
become damad in public imagery without gun if all these things progress has happened without gun
#
why don't you do all this through constitutional means
#
so my faith in the revolution was I was thinking that this is not going to happen and this is not
#
a proper way also and violence is not good so I came back feeling very sad went to my brother
#
who was a police officer in Gonda he gave me good cloths and he gave me some money
#
but he didn't ask me what to do what not to do then I came back and then my mother said there
#
is a letter lying here from your university registered letter it was unopened so I opened
#
and then the letter said that Mr Prasad your investigation period is over three years you
#
are most welcome to join in fact I was investigated in two cases two years two years I thought it
#
will be four years so then I did not talk to anybody I straight came to Allahabad
#
I had my batch mate as a fire station officer he accompanied me to Delhi and I rejoined GNU
#
the registrar asked me to say sorry I said no I will not say sorry then Prasad G.P. Responded
#
took me to the Y chancellor at the time he said why do you humiliate this young man he has now
#
come back to join his city he is a Shilurka boy he is a very bright boy so why do you humiliate
#
this young man he said okay all right join so I joined and then I began to feel very sad
#
I joined so I joined and then I began losing interest I lost interest in
#
Marxism and this Mao's Maoism and all that I did my M field I did my
#
PhD synopsis on the history of Chinese sciences at the time I had become so I was so blinded with
#
that love of barrel of power comes from the barrel of gun so the entire PhD thesis was to
#
praise Chinese history of science and Joseph Nidham became my god
#
this LPG this gas was found natural gas was invented by China paper printing
#
magnet everything happened in China so then
#
I during my one good lesson I learned that during my travels in eastern UP
#
I would we would have conferences secretly in villages in small towns mostly on Dalit villages
#
and meetings in Dalit officers or officers quarters I found two types of Dalits that have
#
progressed one through education and government job the other through migration to cities
#
very very few though then I started thinking that migration to cities is good
#
is good and factory sets are better than the landlords farms this got stuck into my brain
#
because I had evidence for that then I started looking at my relatives
#
those who went to Bombay joined Hindustan Lever joined Mahindra & Mahindra company joined Tata's
#
my own uncle had joined Godrej group where he worked in Tizori department in early 60s
#
who had come back from Burma and that's where the cash again started coming to our family
#
that's why I say I am Godrej product my family we have there are seven PhDs in our family
#
one boy is going to get another PhD and many officers here and there so I was convinced
#
that cities are good for the list factory sets are good for the list in comparison to feudalism
#
and countryside so but I didn't know how to articulate it saying that it capitalism is good
#
was like a shin you will be lynched it was like like that but it had got into my my brain then
#
I joined several movements Dalit Sikh Chandal and these that I felt it is all bakwas
#
education and then finally english government jobs that only few will get migration migration
#
to cities is the best way and then I figured out many people who had migrated to cities like my
#
uncle who joined who joined Godrej group in early 60s his own son became engineer and a top level
#
executive with Indian isle and another brother got into Tata factory and he has now two flats
#
in Bombay so I saw all these things but didn't know how to articulate it and I didn't have a
#
I didn't have a passport but my knuckle colleagues declared me that
#
Mr. Sarnath has been bought by American imperialism
#
um so and it would be like a kind of class
#
when I would say that Ambedkar loved America you know he didn't love China he didn't favor
#
Soviet Union so if I am a follower of Ambedkar I should also
#
look America with the admiration and then PL 480 we started all these things started coming to my
#
mind and then finally I thought a modern India can be built only through methods modern America
#
is built modern Europe is built and uh and let us see I didn't have any scholarly evidence
#
to say that it is capitalism I used to say it is industrialization I used to say industrialists
#
I used to say industrialists and not capitalists and why only me even now talk to any top
#
industry body if anyone ever says that yes we are capitalists yes our our organization represents
#
Indian capitalism so if nobody is saying that why should I be saying that
#
and if I am I would be saying that I will be completely isolated and in JNU
#
Mao, Che Guevara all these people are great revolutionary America lives on our surplus
#
in JNU I did not know those days the trade balance between
#
uh India and US America lives on our surpluses Britain plundered us and became modern I started
#
I asked somebody somebody those days I I keep talking I I would I like to be in conversation
#
where was wheel invented where was a steam engine in invented did British
#
Europeans stole it from India where was European invented so uh no no no no this
#
uh English have plundered us that's why they are rich today America lives on our surpluses and
#
the wheat it produces for pigs whenever it is extra they would send it to poor nations like
#
India and Africa so all these false notions were so I compared it this ideology to my cigarette
#
smoking which I was not able to quit slowly slowly I quit smoking I quit all these things
#
and I started looking at the world from a fresh mind and from my life experience
#
uh that uh one relative who worked for Hindustan Lever his son went on to become a
#
uh inspector in uh Air Force his two sons have settled in are settled in California
#
California so all such examples came hitting at my mind and then finally I got this
#
opportunity to go to Kashi the center for the advanced study of India before that I would add
#
a line about state capitalism you know people say public sector private sector
#
but what is the nature of this public sector one one knows you that this is owned by state
#
private sector means it is owned by private industrialists what are they if not capitalists
#
so since nobody's saying I then I gave private sector a capitalistic name a name called state
#
capitalism because Ambedkar argues in his manifesto for the 1951 election that wherever
#
wherever state enterprise is necessary we will promote state enterprise wherever private enterprise
#
is necessary we will we will promote private enterprise nowhere Gandhiji or Mahatmaji or Patel
#
or any any or Dange any thinker scholar except Swaraj kind of people ever said that private
#
sector will I'll promote private sector so my argument is this the public sector
#
Bael, Sale, NTPC all the IELTS companies all these 260 or so public sector companies are more
#
corporate patterned than the private sector pre-1990 and public sector companies also make profit
#
they also pay taxes to the state state authority of india limited competes with Tata Steel
#
and they take care of the interest of their workers much better than the private sector
#
and of course some private sector companies make losses don't private sector companies make losses
#
don't private sector companies need bailouts so I said this is the this is the state I say this is
#
the state capitalism that has been promoted by Ambedkar and then I draw a parallel Russian
#
Chinese revolution was not a socialistic revolution in the beginning it was a
#
capitalistic revolution a new democratic revolution it turned a socialist state only in 1954 and that
#
socialist state is nothing but state capitalism Chinese companies also made profits they were
#
more corporate pattern than than the earlier private companies in China so I am from that
#
this is state capitalism then comes the question of Dalit capitalism and that's where I think I have
#
grabbed truth that has been unspoken unarticulated so far.
#
So there's a great phrase in the language I love called mugged by reality and mugged by reality
#
means that people will hold a particular ideology or a particular way of thinking
#
but then there'll be mugged by reality in the sense that the real world won't conform to that
#
and when they see the real world is different then they have to adjust now what has happened
#
in modern times is that people can express any kind of principles but ultimately it's not the
#
pursuit for truth that drives them but they have joined a tribe they have joined an intellectual
#
tribe or an ideological tribe and they are part of that tribe and then they will not adjust they
#
can't be mugged by reality because they will ignore it if reality says something they'll be
#
like you know you neoliberals have been bought by American imperialism like you know somebody
#
said about you and what I see in your case is that you have just been open you want to
#
solve a social problem that you see and you are open and you go in this direction and then you
#
go in that direction but eventually you see enough of reality and you adjust to that right but I am
#
guessing that many of your fellow travelers they would not be listening to your arguments
#
you know they would be stuck where they are and we can discuss modern day even even though they
#
are convinced that economic reforms have authored freedom for the countryside Dalit they say why do
#
you give Adam Smith's credit for this yes Kuwait sir yeah so take me through all the things you
#
saw about the real world which convinced you that capitalism is a way out that capitalism is what
#
will empower Dalits and capitalism is what will help Dalits break the shackles of the social system
#
before that let me come to the Dalit capitalism please and a very good friend of mine
#
I don't want to bring him into controversy he said you are a very
#
clever man but very good man I said what he said you are defending capitalism
#
to do that you are inventing a state capitalism that belongs to Ambedkar now the modern Dalits
#
if they come to know through your propaganda that that Indian state capitalism comes from
#
Ambedkar then they will have difficulty in opposing it you are saying Dalit capitalism
#
is a self-respect movement then Dalits will have no hesitation in accepting capitalism I said
#
I'm not clever since these things are not said people have said if a cow is black then it is
#
buffalo it could be buffalo also so why is Dalit capitalism I am not being clever I am being
#
correct a self-respect movement I hold the view that there has been an economic sanction
#
economic sanction on Dalits building wealth and this is this is forcefully argued in Manusmriti
#
Manudharma if Manudharma prevents Dalits from building wealth it is all the more necessary
#
for Dalits to pursue wealth and build wealth become capitalists the question is
#
did Manusmriti's these dictums written 3000 years or more still applicable in society
#
so the my answer begins with Ambedkar Ambedkar burnt Manusmriti in 1927 or 28 on on the Christmas
#
day he says Manusmriti is the is the the region the region for our of our fall and while giving
#
an interview to the Simon commission he submitted a written statement as how in the city of Bombay
#
a Dalit woman was selling wet watermelon somebody from her colony recognized her and he went and
#
filed a complaint with police and police arrested her that without exposing your social base you
#
are polluting society so but Ambedkar was asked how is Manusmriti relevant today
#
and Dalits celebrate every year Manusmriti Dahan Divas so one day an apple fell on my head
#
I I have three four Tulsi plants I drink tea every day
#
and I don't put milk or sugar I have a class school time friend a Brahmin he lives in Chhattisgarh
#
Mr. Virendra Tripathi I once said send picture of we keep exchanging things since whatsapp came into
#
being picture of this tea if you boil Tulsi tea and within four five minutes if you put it into
#
if you put it into your glass it would be it would be light green it would really look so beautiful
#
then I said guess what is this he made two three guesses he was wrong I said it is Tulsi tea
#
oh my god Tulsi tea do you boil Tulsi tea I said yes that's how I drink it Tulsi is a wife of Vishnu
#
I said what does it mean he said ki we all all Brahmins celebrate Tulsi Tulsi as a Tulsi
#
Ma Tulsi it's our our religious symbol I said then I felt an apple had has fallen on my head
#
I must proceed I have I have I had a copy of Manusmriti the penguin translation
#
and I have a download of Bohler's original translation of Manusmriti so I went to the
#
index of the penguin book Tulsi so many references then I said Tulsi where is this cow cow cow milk
#
cow ghee cow urine cow dung all auspicious then where is this Agni it is there in Tulsi how
#
on all these things in Manusmriti so I started my my friends what does it mean
#
it means nothing it's a it's a matter of our tradition culture religion then I said how far
#
people still worship Tulsi how far use cow dung and cow urine as a sanitizer do Haman Agni Puja
#
Surya Namaskar Surya Puja so I charted out a new course and I I kept believing that the apple
#
apple has fallen on my head so I made a 15-day trip to east Ajamgarh I stayed for two hours in
#
a village near Atraulia within the Ajamgarh district a actual Thakur Jamidar village
#
from one family there are now six families
#
so that village is famous because somewhere in 1940 or so or 45 a girl from that village
#
was married to a Jamidar son in gondalistic and the Jamidar son brought along with the
#
Bharati's 151 elephants 151 natch girls few hundred horses and river Ghagra passes by so
#
while the horsemen took a longer route because they could not horses could not swim the river
#
elephants entered the waters and as the villagers say the water level from the west side
#
went up by one feet and one could see river some 30 percent water was blocked
#
so elephants tamed the river Ghagra for that reason it is famous so all the six houses have
#
Tulasi plants elderly men in all the six houses do Suraj Puja every morning all the six families
#
observe Haman do Haman do Agni Puja all that is written in Mansmurti next day I went to my village
#
figured out the Tulasi presence in upper caste localities 90 percent next morning by six o'clock
#
we were in village Kathaicha it is a Brahmin majority village and there is a small temple
#
that I have known since my childhood because there used to be and still a village fair
#
I went and then I met the Tulasi the priest and asked about Tulasi he said so many Tulasi plants
#
asked about Suraj Puja he said I am just going to do it Suraj Puja sun is likely to come
#
please wait for 20 minutes then we went to Dalit Basti nearby Tulasi is not there
#
Suraj Puja is not there Haman is not there then we entered the mainstream Brahmin village
#
there also I am known because it is hardly two kilometers away from my village 90 percent Brahmin
#
houses elderly men observe Suraj Puja after bath this is their first act in show the Brahmin elderly
#
Brahmin woman almost all do Tulasi Puja every day except few days in winters they don't do it
#
or whenever they are sick all sanitize their houses by this cow dung all do Haman
#
all avoid garlic all avoid onion all have this three triple card ceremony
#
and all do Agni Puja I spent the entire day there next day I we the same day we entered
#
Bhumihar village 30 kilometers east to my village we spent the village the night there we got up
#
five o'clock in the morning took a tour of the village along with the village head who is
#
known to me we found 80 percent Bhumihar practicing this Tulasi Suraj Puja soon
#
and then we went to a big Thakur village the village of my study right now
#
that had 22 Jamiras and all had elephants 70 percent households practice this I came back to
#
Delhi he spoke to some of my friends journalists women journalists my of my time they say yes we
#
have we have it for medical reasons we practice Tulasi for medical reasons Tulasi other like all
#
these things then I did a survey of my own apartment and there are 21 flats in my tower
#
there is one Sardarji family Sikh family they don't have this they don't grow Tulasi for
#
religious reasons and my family we have Tulasi but we don't do it for religious reasons
#
the rest all have I spoke to all why this they said it is good for health
#
so there is one Brahmin family that doesn't consume garlic I said what about garlic
#
garlic something something then I asked all of them for one I spent one entire week that
#
that they said this is our culture some said this is Hindu tradition some say it is Hindu religious
#
practice none where is this written no idea is it written in Manusmriti we have not seen it
#
but it is part of our culture then I said I argued with myself that if
#
sanctions against Dalit making capital
#
has relevance even today not because of any upper caste conspiracy it is in the culture of the caste
#
Hindu society the way Tulasi is part of their culture disliking Dalits for riding a horse
#
in their wedding for wearing good clothes for wearing gold necklace in fact that
#
that kerala that mutiny it should be it should be titled the gold mutiny
#
because I visited this in this summer that a place women were asked to participate come to
#
participate in this only when they have a they had a alternate ornament made up of gold
#
gold to Kallumala to replace that Ambedkar submits cites a report of a Madhya Pradesh village
#
Indore of 36 or so published in Times of India that the upper caste people had had ordered Dalit
#
not to use gold necklace gold ring colorful borders on the dhotis and the recent Gujarat case where
#
the Dalit was almost lynched for sporting a gold chain so my question is I'm saying it is not a
#
matter of of conspiracy there can be a dispute even violent dispute even murders between two
#
individuals belonging to two different castes are within their caste on the question of
#
some competition business rivalry land dispute something related to women but
#
a man who does not who has not seen a Dalit before this particular Dalit man before
#
and he learns that this man is riding bullet and there is an instant anger in him
#
either that is with the pointed moustache that he risks his own life in attacking him
#
so I'm saying sanctions against Dalits are a cultural question it is very much into the
#
central nervous system of the caste Hindu society so if Dalits want to reject Manusmriti or Manu
#
Dharma the only way for them is to follow the path of capitalism so that's why it is a self-respect
#
moment now when I am coming up up with these these are facts they are not opinions ask anybody
#
ask any caste Hindu in any part then I went to confirm whether it is in the south I went and
#
visited a village in Tamil Nadu it is there I visited two villages in Kerala it is there
#
I visited two villages in in Karnataka it is much more and in fact in West Bengal
#
in Kerala in Tamil Nadu in Karnataka it has a respectable name Tulsi colors Tulsi that
#
Tulsi that stand is more popular in the south than in the north and as if there has been a some kind
#
of United Nations direction that the size of the Tulsi pot has to be identical to a pot in
#
a pot in Tamil Nadu and a pot in Ajamgarh village so that's why I call Dalit capitalism a self-respect
#
moment now because of this I find Nehru closer to Ambedkar than Nehru closer to Gandhiji
#
Gandhiji is fond of village society village republics village economy
#
Nehru opens Bhakranangal dam and all these big big companies public sector companies and if
#
if Adam Smith symbolizes capitalism philosophically then Adam Smith is
#
closer to Ambedkar or Ambedkar is closer to Adam Smith this is not my opinion this is for all to see
#
and for this neither Ambedkar is responsible or nor Adam Smith not Chandraman Prasad it is a reality
#
that factory sets have windows of fresh air and freedom everywhere villages the feudal society
#
the feudal society is is is a social prison so what order should Dalit
#
walk this social prison prison or the factory sets and then science democracy all these things
#
follow I still have resistance to my ideology to my way of thinking I am still in minority among
#
Dalit thinkers but that doesn't prevent me from see from saying what I am seeing
#
this is a very sharp insight about how just as worshipping Gau or worshipping Tulsi is part of
#
Hindu culture so is keeping Dalits in their place right it's such a sharp insight that I feel
#
my life will become relevant for this very apple falling on my head and that's also such a great
#
phrase this very apple falling on my head tell me a little bit more about how Dalit capitalism
#
and urbanization have changed the lives of Dalits on the ground from what you see you
#
you've of course written that great book about Dalit entrepreneurs with a you know with a
#
wonderful introduction as well which you know I recommend all my listeners read by you and
#
Devesh Kapoor and Shyam Babu tell us a little elaborate a little bit more on this because
#
there is still a conventional view in some circles that you know that capitalism is all about a
#
certain class of people being oppressed and other you know it's a very zero-sum vision of the world
#
so there are two factors there is a place called Sangli in Maharashtra and there is a village
#
where lives a Sadamte family I think an entire book should be written on that family
#
Sadamte family a Dalit family Sadamtes were working for for Kiril Oscars and those who know
#
Kiril Oscars must know that Kiril Oscar has a large plant probably the first plant in
#
Sangli he was working there as a technician I think it was 1990 or 91 Kiril Oscar is an
#
international multinational company so they knew about this outsourcing much before than others
#
was realized he said all 55 plus have an option to retire they can take money for the
#
entire period period that they are going to lose or take machine and some money also
#
prepare manufacture small small things at their home and supply to us Sadamte chose a machine
#
steel cutter and some some three four machines now he implies more than 100 workers
#
so what I figured out most of the list that we have covered and I that I keep figuring out
#
we are earlier working with big companies as technicians as workers as supervisors
#
as supervisors they when the what we call chutney when companies said you go out and
#
do something else take your salary for the coming five years so these Dalits came out
#
from this factory they started selling back small small products to there was no
#
no parental factory that's when I realized that globalization has democratized
#
capital more than the any government law and all these Dalits have from worker to owner
#
have become thanks to this global practice of global practice of outsourcing and it will further
#
continue wonderful story and I'll link to many pieces by you also where you've kind of written
#
on this tell me also about the conventional view of the caste problem in India like what does it
#
get wrong like one of the things that I typically find is that a lot of the discourse around this is
#
paternalistic right and one of the resonant phrases I discovered in your writing is at one
#
point where you wrote about how we must free Dalits from the ration card right so tell me a
#
little bit about this because there is one view that oh these people are oppressed and we must
#
people are oppressed and we must give them this and we must give them that and all of that and your
#
point is that no markets and cities will empower us has been empowering us for many years you know
#
that is a way forward and so on and so forth and that the paternalistic view is offensive we don't
#
we don't need that you know free Dalits from the ration card as you said so can you tell me
#
of useless the biggest criticism of capitalism is that it makes poor poorer rich richer and widens
#
the equality inequality gap in my village and in my family I have written in that book that I have
#
submitted to the Mercator Center I have found out that inequality has been the greatest trigger
#
for migration so let me give one example Babulal my classmate till class fifth we took admission
#
the same day months before the fifth board examination he dropped out I argued with him
#
he said I can't do anything my parents are asking me there was a practice those days that if a
#
school boy drops out the headmaster would assemble a team of well-built
#
students to go and capture him and bring him so a team went to capture him including me
#
but he's physically much stronger he chased us back then I sent my mother to convince Babulal's
#
mother to rejoin the school she said her husband is a halwaha tied to a landlord we are our entire
#
family works for him we need a small hand for this two dozen picks that we have because it's
#
only picks that bring cash so this boy is needed so Babulal replaced his father
#
I came I kept studying and then came to Delhi and all that he kept his fleet of these picks
#
and kept working for the landlord also half of the family is at landlord's home and half of the
#
family is behind picks he has four sons so it was early 2006 when I was invited by a German group
#
to come and participate in discussions on Dalits in several German cities so I
#
there was a wedding in the family I went back to the family my village and there is a practice
#
amongst the Dalits I think amongst everybody that if a man from the village a family has gone
#
and he works in Delhi or Bombay is officer or Babu or worker he is expected to give money the
#
same day to the household owner thousand five thousand ten thousand whatever and when he leaves
#
for Delhi back or Bombay he gives 100 rupees 200 rupees 500 rupees to the people who come to see
#
him off so I was giving him 500 rupees note because he was my classmate childhood friend he refused
#
then I took out a thousand rupees note he refused he says God has given me everything
#
he insisted I insisted he did not accept and then out of frustration I gave it to some
#
woman standing there whom I don't know much I said Ragalo we boarded the car for Lucknow
#
and from Lucknow I would come to Delhi I asked my cousin that why did he reject my offer of 500
#
rupees and then 1000 then he said I think his children are doing well two of them have become
#
drivers of the 22 wheel trucks then I said call back somebody he has studied in my village he
#
called back he says hey Babu Lal he is now he carries a Lota for Maidan you know Lota yeah he
#
is a tumbler and earlier people used to go for washroom outside villages so they would carry the
#
water some water to wash the the the that vessel if it is earthen made or if it is a bottle of
#
wine bottle or a scotch bottle if you are carrying water in those things or if you are carrying
#
water in aluminium made thing then you are Dalits are very poor man if you are carrying water in
#
bronze this Lota then you have come of age so he is carrying bronze Lota these days
#
don't worry about him his sons are doing very well they are sending him money
#
and out of four sons three have got employed so now one is working in a in a
#
medicine factory so I started making calculations
#
Babu Lal when Babu Lal worked for the village landlord he was unfree
#
and the inequality gap between him and the landlord is one to ten
#
landlord has ten acres of land he has one biga so I calculated their possible income and then I said
#
this much of inequality is there and he is unfree doesn't get good food to eat doesn't get
#
good food to eat doesn't get good clothes to wear doesn't get shoes or slippers his son has joined a
#
pharmaceutical factory in Gurgaon or somewhere and that factory owner is a billionaire
#
now the gap income gap between Babu Lal's son and his employer is much broader than the income
#
income inequality a gap between Babu Lal and his employer in the village now if that boy who makes
#
work in a factory or the boy the two sons who are drivers in Nagpur suppose if they become drivers
#
in a Tata factory the income gap between the present employer and Babu Lal will further
#
increase they are more unequal now but they are getting more salary now when they are more unequal
#
so while they have they have and if they get a job in a in a in a apple factory as a truck driver
#
the apple is a much bigger richer man so they will become more unequal to their present employer
#
inequality index will go broaden even more but he will have freedom he would have more
#
money to have good life and all the members of the family will have bronze vessels
#
so and if there is a Dalit hamlet all are equally poor all are working for landlords
#
if one becomes a factory leverer Mahindra and Mahindra company or Tata company or Godrej
#
then he has rest of his Dalit fellows have become unequal to him so what is likely to happen
#
and I have a data to show what will what has happened the rest of the Dalits villagers
#
start looking at him and they also find ways to migrate to cities
#
if and then 20 have migrated in by as the data shows our Kashi study by 1991
#
on an average seven Dalits had left their hamlets on an average by 1990 by 2007 on an average 50
#
Dalits had left for cities now it will be around 150 so if one Dalit escapes to cities becomes
#
richer becomes more unequal to their employers others follow him if none left for the cities
#
then all remain at that very level serves to the landlords so I am arguing this not because it is
#
my opinion this is how my family has moved up this is how my Dalit hamlet has moved up this is how
#
every third Dalit in my Nana's village has a bike in my childhood my Nana's family was the first to
#
get a bicycle and I distinctly remember I was a child a big pig was butchered and there were some
#
kind of ceremonies women sang song and put up tilak on the bicycle wow now if you buy a bike
#
it goes unnoticed because so many bikes in the Dalit hamlet so this is due to this inequality
#
caused by capitalism I agree completely with the point you made about inequality in the sense I
#
have written columns about this as well and I think people mistake inequality and poverty and
#
they're two very different things like you know people like what you mentioned about rich getting
#
richer poor poor getting poorer that's not what happens that's a zero-sum view of the world it
#
would happen if the world was zero-sum but the world is positive sum and therefore the way growth
#
happens is that everybody gets richer the rich get richer at a faster rate so inequality grows
#
but you're eliminating poverty as you do so so you know which is why a question I often ask in
#
a thought experiment is in which of these two countries would you rather be poor America or
#
Bangladesh and everybody would rather be poor in America but America has greater inequality
#
so I agree with you that you know and this is also why people go from villages to cities
#
cities have much greater inequality yes but people go because they want to escape poverty so that is
#
so resonant you know one of the points you've made in your book is about how when you went around
#
asking landlords that how have things changed for them and you found a landlord who was bemoaning
#
that you know in the olden days there would be Dalits outside my house every morning
#
looking for work now there is no one right and you came up with this great line modernity is
#
a villain for caste Hindus right and so I want to ask you a question based on this that
#
when I think of progress as far as caste is concerned and I'm also atheist and I find
#
a lot about every religion completely repulsive when I think about progress as far as the issue
#
of caste is concerned there are two ways we can look at it one is that Dalits are getting empowered
#
are empowering themselves are finding agency can live better lives and so on and you've spoken
#
about the many ways in which that is happening the other is that discrimination stops that that
#
anti-caste feeling stops that upper class people who feel this way not all upper class people feel
#
this way upper caste people feel this way of course but those who do that the feeling of caste
#
eventually goes away that is the ultimate progress right what I find is that I'm inspired by many of
#
the stories in your books and it is clear that thanks to markets and urbanization many Dalits
#
are empowering themselves and obviously the process will take decades nothing is a panacea
#
my question for you is that the other side of the thing is that changing in the sense that to me
#
the the battle is finally won when there is no consciousness of caste at all you know when even
#
someone who is privileged enough to be born in an upper caste he is no longer feeling angry at
#
Dalits for getting ahead no longer discriminating against them and so on and there I feel that the
#
progress has been much slower so what is your sense of this because I think one of the great
#
projects at the start of modern India was that we shall transform society and we shall transform it
#
from the top down and I'm not sure that happened because if anything because of our politics the
#
way the tool of reservations have been used for example within our politics the way vote banks
#
are constantly being carved out it seems to me that the question of caste is still potent that
#
yes you know yeah that through markets through cities you know people can get away and empower
#
themselves and all of that but what is your sense of the overall progress we've made as a society
#
and you know do you feel hopeful about that as well see my next twin books are titled one is titled
#
blessings of economic reforms cash fall in Dalit hamlets
#
this allows the list to enter into caste neutral occupation
#
second book cash starvation amongst upper castes
#
is triggering an underclass formation within upper caste this is curse of capitalism
#
that is that is hitting at the caste you know caste has two bases
#
caste stands on two legs blood purity and occupation purity
#
thanks to the birth of caste neutral occupations
#
Dalits are able to quit caste-based occupations and enter into class caste neutral occupations
#
upper castes on the other hand that could not migrate and would not easily migrate and become
#
a factory worker they are now choosing occupations entering occupations
#
that has been sacrilege for them for millenniums like raising cows and buffaloes for selling milk
#
starting chicken farms starting fish farms for which they would have been lynched 30 years back
#
so this is the curse of capitalism it is hitting at caste so this is how i see this is happening
#
so sir let's let's uh let's talk about one of the great influences in your life and one of the great
#
men in of our nation obviously Ambedkar ji uh you know one of the interesting parts of your book
#
uh of of all your writing in fact is how some of the most important parts of Ambedkar's writing
#
and that made the greatest influence on you especially the 1951 manifesto are actually like
#
that you mentioned came in the 17th volume of his collected works it was like hidden away towards
#
the very end and to you that is the part of his work which is most powerful written relatively
#
late in his life so everything that he has learned has gone into that so tell me a bit more about the
#
1951 manifesto and what are the lessons that that holds for all of us actually these editors of
#
Ambedkar volumes distorted Ambedkar as a philosopher
#
philosopher Ambedkar wrote one small booklet in a way an alternate constitution
#
writing hinting at basics of what the constitution of india should look like
#
when he was not sure that he will enter he will be able to enter a consent assembly
#
so he gave that manifesto that memorandum to pandit jawala nehru in that he says talks about
#
state socialism right so the very usage of the term state socialism makes him a socialist
#
kind of thinker closer to Karl Marx that little book written in 1946 was published in the very
#
first volume of Ambedkar writings in 89 so a generation of two of Dalits grew up thinking
#
that Ambedkar was a socialist thinker in his 1951 manifesto that was published in 17th volume
#
few years back in that socialist in that scheduled caste emancipation manifesto that is the only
#
book or paper he wrote where there is a clear mention of this is how should rule caste will be
#
caste will be emancipated so the last thing first
#
Ambedkar asks people of this country to keep distance from Vishwa Hindu Parishad RSS and
#
communists so it is clear it is his manifesto it is written after 1951 in 1951 it is written after
#
he has finished his constitution so he is not a socialist he is not a communist he proposes
#
somewhere else to write a book against marxism and he proposes the complete chapterization that
#
you will find in this book what is ambedkarism when the entire world talked of a socialist society
#
he never took china or soviet union as his model and he says instead we should develop
#
friendship with america so he was a modernist he loved western democracy he loved sciences
#
what is there in his manifesto he says
#
we will introduce farming on large scale farms
#
which is this model if not a capitalistic model that we have seen in the u.s.
#
he says we will completely mechanize farming what is this philosophy in 1951
#
who else would say it when the entire world was talking about lent to the tailor
#
and machines were hated that the machines destroy jobs
#
he says of course that we might think of cooperative farming because that is what
#
the entire world spoke of then he is the only philosopher to talk of
#
giving space to the private sector in his manifesto and it's strange as it may seem
#
it might appear he is dead against against prohibition of liquor and he gives argument
#
you know throughout his writing you will see ambedkar
#
are prefixing liberty before equality
#
because as a modern man he could know that was there any way blacks would ask for equality
#
without abolishing slavery so if you don't have equality how are liberty fraternity and then equality
#
his preamble is ambedkar written and if there is any proof i have the proof his rpi republican party
#
of india the aims and objectives of the republican party of of india are
#
the same word by word comma by comma full stop by full stop preamble of india's constitution
#
do you need any more hint to say that ambedkar believed in a capitalistic order
#
in western democracy in modern sciences and nehru and ambedkar were closer to each other than
#
other than anybody else and also just to sorry to interrupt but just to add this one point that
#
people don't realize is that the preamble written by ambedkar did not have the word socialist in it
#
that was added by indira gandhi later in the amendment she made during emergency yeah so he was
#
so he was a now think of a dalit who was not a drinker is against saying arguing against
#
prohibition and then saying wherever private sector is enterprise is necessary we will allow
#
private enterprise who else could say at the time when all the half of half of the world had
#
turned red could any dalit scholar dalit thinker take that risk so he was a modernistic modern
#
philosopher believing in modern economics modern sciences modern democracy so that's what ambedkar
#
was but the entire two generations of the list have taught him to be closer to marxism and i
#
don't want to name top top dalit scholars still argue even a couple of weeks ago a top dalit scholar
#
at harvard tweeted that the list should join the global left
#
so even to speak truth i must gather courage truth can be easily spoken spoken
#
why do you have to need why do you need to have courage for that
#
that so and so far my present stage of my life
#
it all goes to kashi narish can i ask you a couple of follow-up questions on ambedkar first
#
yeah yeah like one i'm of course struck by how some of the lines you quoted from this
#
uh manifesto of 1951 are actually coming straight from the dalit gaze in the sense that mechanization
#
of agriculture and what does it do it frees dalits from having to work in farms you know
#
something that you've also kind of written about talking about capitalism again talking about
#
modernity you know empowers dalits again and fights against the system my question is like
#
one follow-up question i want to ask on this is that in your writings you've written about
#
how dalit leadership is failing it's out of touch with the new generation which has aspirations and
#
you're not like focusing on those uh you know aspirations i think in the introduction to your
#
book on dalit entrepreneurs you uh davesh ji and shambabu had written about how you know the
#
dalits of today are looking for ahead to the future they are not imprisoned by what happened
#
in the past you know but that's not really so reflected in what some dalit leaders and
#
dalit intellectuals are doing and just now you spoke about how you know ivory tower academics
#
will talk about you know talk talk about this whole issue in marxist terms so tell me a little
#
bit about this because earlier you mentioned that you are not in the majority among even uh
#
dalit intellectuals or dalit thinkers that you are still a minority you are still like a voice
#
in the wilderness tell me a little bit about what is wrong with the mainstream thinking on this
#
subject see first let me talk about the spirit of ambedkarism you know in his manifesto if
#
if it is the pages are taken out from the manifesto from his 17th volume part one
#
and given to a top dalit intellectual i'll take a printout and just say guess who may have written
#
it i have told dr manmohan singh in a meeting sir that is middle class thinks that you have
#
been stolen from ambedkar's uh manifesto your economic reforms comes from ambedkar so he was
#
smiling he he marries dalit's interest with the interest of india as a republic there is one or
#
two strangers about sidur kast dalit it's all about a modern india its economy its politics its
#
sciences it's all about modern india and at later stage when he writes manifesto aims and objectives
#
of the republican party he just reproduces the preamble and if i am there to interpret ambedkarism
#
i would say ambedkar is hinting that let let there come a situation where entire society
#
dissolves into some gas that's why he is not talking about dalit and non-dalit and anybody
#
in his republican party programs and objectives so dalit the intellectuals
#
are ambedkarites because because they have a sidur kast certificate
#
they are not ambedkarite because they have read ambedkar if someone has not read the
#
sidur kast emancipation manifesto that talks very little about about the list then that person has
#
no right to call himself ambedkarite all these people have uh have uh become ambedkarite because
#
they have a sidur kast certificate and therefore they are ambedkarite so the mainstream india
#
and when i say mainstream india whatever you read every day in newspapers whatever you read in
#
classrooms whatever you read for your examinations you tend to take the mainstream view of india where
#
take the mainstream view of india where freedom to dalits is not in the discourse
#
the equalities the utopia uh ambani brothers are unequal to each other and uh all americans are
#
unequal to what is that uh warren buffett and the car maker tesla all americans are
#
unequal to them should they commit suicide so this nonsensical thinking of this equality
#
and putting ambedkar into that frame has hurt dalit's interests most
#
and it just strikes me that that what that 1951 manifesto which i enjoyed reading so much written
#
by a man at the peak of his powers after full reflection of all that he has lived through
#
what it shows is that while ambedkar was much closer to adam smith ambedkarism went on to be
#
hijacked by marx which is you know uh which feels so you know uh simple thing about capitalism
#
capitalism replaces social markers with material markers if you don't have this smartphone
#
buddy what kind of upper caste you are
#
ambedkar and and dispossessed dalits if they have this smartphone in their hands
#
society will will feel jealous and today whatever is happening you are saying about
#
caste not going and all these things see caste is is an institution
#
like purana kila in delhi it extends there what is its use value
#
so a a person in my apartment is jealous of chandrabhan prasad but what can you do
#
except curse me in his mind and install a some deity and worship that deity that chandrabhan
#
prasad should suffer and should undergo all kinds of things it is it will be there it is there in
#
your mind 30 years back 50 years back raising a moustache pointed was an offense committed
#
so caste consciousness in practice caste consciousness in mind not in your hands
#
and not in action still there will be something and i i very firmly believe
#
that unless your neighbors become jealous of you you have not achieved anything
#
and so before i go on to the next question i i found that passage and i want to read it out
#
which devesh and you and sham babu wrote uh from that brilliant introduction to defying the odds
#
where you wrote quote how have these entrepreneurs overcome their childhood experiences of social
#
marginalization and the multiple humiliations of poverty and caste in some cases it surely lingers
#
but the absence of rancor is striking given the tribulations they face growing up their dreams
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outweigh their memories they certainly occasionally glance back but but for the most part they are
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focused on driving forward knowing that one can't drive too far if one is obsessively focused on
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looking back while dalit intellectuals continue to focus on the past to make sense of the present
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dalit entrepreneurs look at the present to create opportunities for new futures stop
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quote and now i'm going to ask you about kashina ratios so tell me you know in the known history
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of india dalit saint evolves in kashi varanasi
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and he becomes very famous jala bhai of chittor maharani becomes his disciple
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it is also said poetess meera bhai also became his disciple
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sikhism in gurubani has adopted his poems when kashina race was becoming famous
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when kashina race was becoming famous pandits of top pandits of kashi approached the king
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called kashina race that this man being an untouchable
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is claiming intellectual superiority over us claiming intellectual leadership
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then the king said what do you want he said let there be a shastra then the shastra is
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organized the entire city was informed brahmin said we five of us as per our religious system
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five of us will will argue together to that ravidas has no has no objection then
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pandits argued their case as how rituals at every stage is like a staircase to the god's home
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and the pandits are the ones who will hold hands of the disciples
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and introduce disciples to the god
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santraviraj argued he argued intellectual purity and not these systems of worship
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is the only direct staircase to the god
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requiring no middleman and he said purity of man
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if your mind is pure then this then in this very wooden vessel you can see
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ganges and people clapped and he was the winner and king of the kashi the judicious king
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took an untouchable on his wrath and gave him a tour of the entire city and the entire city
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clapping clapping that is the first history here historically known victory of dalits over
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brahmins at the hindu seat of power that is kashi i i had all these things which i am talking about
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about capitalism about migration about inequality equality cities and factory sets
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but i did not have a platform from where i can speak it and it can spread throughout the world
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i need a kashi type of seat of knowledge i need a an ibilic to host me i am not rabidash and there
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won't be a kashi in a race they are all histories and idioms now something similar to that
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something similar to that so i found a kashi in a race that is the west who was heading kashi
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center for the advanced history of india university of pennsylvania and i believe in
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school he hosted me in 2007 as a visiting scholar although i did not have any phd i had dropped phd
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after i decided to abandon mau i abandoned china also he hosted me and he provided me
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infrastructure to study impacts of migration on the life lives of dalits that shows
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thanks to urban expansion capitalistic expansion factory sets requires men and women from the
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countryside in millions and millions and millions in numbers and our study of two blocks in utra
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pades east up west up shows that by 2007 on an average 50 dalits had migrated to cities
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whereas by 1990 only seven had migrated to cities that completely caused collapse of european
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serfdom in india europe needed a black death india needed monty king alualia and and manmohan
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singh too so in that sense this kashi in a race of of philadelphia university of pennsylvania has
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put me on this on this pedestal where i have been praised by nobel nobel laureate professor gary
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baker i have been profiled profiled by by washington post i have been profiled by new york times
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and now i am an affiliated scholar with the marcata center george mason university
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with the marcata center george mason university so i found my kashi in a race as judicious
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and anti-caste as original kashi in a race of kashi thank you sir thank you so much
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i will i will only say that all of these people you mentioned
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uh davish and mercatus and all of that all of them are lucky to have you and uh and uh you know
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associated with them and and so am i i've learned a lot from this episode and a lot of it is so
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insightful i will take time to process it further but i want to end by asking you to recommend books
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films music whatever is dear to your heart for me or my listeners it could be related to this
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subject it could just be something general whatever is really close to you that you really love
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one must read ambedkar's book that he wrote for his phd in the university of columbia
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small holdings and their problems and solutions it is in the part one of ambedkar's writing
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in ambedkar's manifesto ambedkar's aims and objectives for the republican party of lindia
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india that he was going to launch ambedkar's memorandum to the british vice ray when he
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joined their cabinet that is there in ambedkar's volume 10th and to understand what was in what
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was happening in india this song
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thank you sir thank you thank you thank you so much sir yeah
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yeah if you enjoyed listening to this episode hop on over to the show notes enter rabbit holes at
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will do go to your nearest bookstore online or offline and buy all the books written by chandrabhan
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prasad there are more forthcoming which i can't wait to read you can follow chandrabhanji on
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twitter at cbhan p that is c b h a n p i'll link it from the show notes you can follow me on twitter
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at amit varma a m i t b a r m a you can browse past episodes of the scene and the unseen at scene unseen
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