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The days are long, but the years are short.
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When a year ends, as 2022 is ending soon, it's a good time to sit back and take stock.
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But for this year-ending episode, I didn't want big serious subjects, ponderous self-reflection,
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laments about the state of the world.
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Instead, I wanted to sit and take stock of all the things that should give us hope.
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I wanted life lessons that could inspire us to move forward.
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I often speak of hope and despair on this show.
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Well, in this episode, I wanted you and me to feel hopeful at the end of it.
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And boy, am I happy with the two friends I called on and the conversation we had.
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This was one of my most enjoyable conversations.
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And when I heard it back, I was blown away by the amount of wisdom that these two guests
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brought to the table, which I hadn't even noticed while recording because we were so
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Now, I know this was a long episode, but my last episode to go over seven hours, episode
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303 with Nikhil Taneja, the loneliness of the Indian man, touched so many people so
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deeply that I'm still getting emails about it.
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I mean, I only go long when the conversation is so great that we lose track of time.
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So do listen to this episode as well in parts if you have to.
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When you reach the end, I promise you'll ask, hey, why did it end so soon?
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But hey, 2022 is also ending so soon.
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But let's enjoy the years ahead of us and the many conversations ahead of us.
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Welcome to the seen and the unseen.
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Our weekly podcast on economics, politics and behavioral science.
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Please welcome your host, Amit Varma.
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Welcome to the seen and the unseen.
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My guests today for the special year end episode are my good friends, Vikram Sathe and Roshan
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Now, if I try to give Roshan the introduction he deserves, that only will take seven hours.
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He's a radio star, a TV star, an events mogul, a filmmaker, an entrepreneur and today a mentor
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and an inspiration to young creators everywhere and older ones like me.
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But most of all, at least for me, he's a good human being who makes me also want to be a
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He's been on the show before and I urge you to check out that earlier episode as well
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in which he talks about his life, his learnings and the creator economy.
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In this episode, we spoke more about his life and learnings and he spoke about what he learned
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and unlearned while playing the role of Lalit Varma in the musical version of Monsoon Wedding,
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which is going to Broadway soon.
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How Meera Nair taught him to have the heart of a poet and the skin of an elephant.
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And how, as Roshan keeps telling me, one must either be interested or be interesting.
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And to me, Roshan is both of those, which is why he makes for such a delightful guest.
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My other guest today is my old buddy, Vikram Sathe, also known variously as Baljeet and
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Parpeetha Ram, who was my contemporary in Ferguson College, Pune in the early 1990s
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and later my colleague at MTV in the mid to late 90s.
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He worked in marketing then, which was kind of at odds with his past as a budding musician,
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Now one of his side skills then was comedy, and one subset of his comedy skills was mimicry.
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He soon got known for that, entertained people with his stand-up act on cricket and what
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was time pass at parties became a profession.
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A decade before India's stand-up explosion, Vikram was doing sold out shows and corporate
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events and did literally thousands of performances.
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He also got into cricket broadcasting and became good friends with top cricketers just
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as he already was with top artists.
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He's one person I know who was close to both the Tendulkar's, Vijay Tendulkar and Sachin
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Tendulkar, and one of his great skills was in imbibing life lessons from everyone he
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He did this from both Tendulkar's, he wrote a best-selling book about his journey and
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then made a wildly successful YouTube show, What the Duck with Vikram Sathe, in which
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he spoke to top cricketers and revealed the way they think for all of us.
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Besides his comedy and his YouTubing, he also became a top motivational speaker and now
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spends time investing his hard-earned money, paying it back as it were.
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I've always loved three qualities of Vikram which I try to work on for myself.
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One, his constant curiosity about the world.
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Two, his humility, despite his many achievements, which always keeps him open to learning into
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And three, his good humour, the positive energy that keeps him moving forward.
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And hey, coming to think of it, Roshan shares these qualities as well.
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We explored Vikram's journey in this episode, in which he shared his learnings from Bollywood,
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from the corporate world, from sport and as Roshan did as well, from life.
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This is one of the most enjoyable conversations I've ever had on the show, not least because
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of the feast of singing towards the end.
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But before we begin, let's take a quick commercial break.
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Roshan and Vikram, welcome to the scene and the unseen.
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Fabulous to be here with you again.
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Thank you Amit for having me.
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30 years I've known you, finally you've given me some respect.
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Okay, that's a good way to start.
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So let me start by sort of bringing up an interesting observation.
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I saw this tweet from Tim Urban basically to the effect of how when you are young, you
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have no money but lots of time and as you get older, when you get to the age that we
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are, you have the money problem is hopefully solved.
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You have more money, but you have less time.
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Time is a scarce resource and you know, Paul Graham replied to this, you know, from an
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investment point of view saying that when you're building something for the young, remember
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that they have no money, but they have time and vice versa for older people.
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And I was kind of just wondering, you know, given that we are sort of middle-aged, so
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I shouldn't, you know, say Roshan is already looking upset because he's young, but given
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that we are, you know, late forties, early fifties, you know, how would you sort of think
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about, think about this, like how has this changed what you do now as opposed to, you
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know, how you lived your lives when you were young?
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So see, personally, I completely agree with the fact of saying that time becomes a scarce
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resource over a period of time as you age, but somehow if you really need to keep optimized
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time and expand it, the first thing that I started doing very early was I make myself
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redundant in every job that I do.
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I immediately, very quickly find a replacement, teach them what I know and move on because
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that's when I again find that free time available.
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During the pandemic, I hired two people, I call them my left brain and my right brain.
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And both of these guys actually do 150% of what I do because 50% of what they do is stuff
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I'm not good with finance.
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I'm not very, very good with follow-up on a couple of things.
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You know, if you really need to analyze things, I react far more, you know, from a creative
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perspective, I love the idea, but I may not think so much about the execution.
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So all of these, you know, so they were able to take that on, they are one is 25, one is
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You know, so I've actually, that's how I'm trying to optimize it to a certain degree.
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But I do feel that these two concepts, I mean, if you have to constantly look at life from
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money and, you know, time perspective, I somehow really look at it a little differently.
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I'm always just trying to see that can you make your life richer in any way, whether
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it is meeting up with friends, catching up on conversation, whether it's reading, whether
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it's writing, whether it's, you know, going out and doing a play or doing whatever else.
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But I just think, you know, I think I'm just a huge enthusiast of jumping into doing things
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Time expands or contracts to fill the space, I think, work does at the same time, so I
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So this doesn't apply to me because I don't see any change in me over the last 48 years
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Because for me, as I mentioned to you in the beginning, Amit, that mera desire vizair kuch
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So nothing changed drastically.
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If I was at eight years, a certain mindset, which is low attention span, doing whatever
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is going on on a daily basis, this is exactly how I live today.
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There was this eight years in corporate life that I was a little bit different because
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it was a nine to nine routine.
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After that, I got back to my childhood.
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So the transition of going into a corporate job was the only aberration for eight years.
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After that, I'm back because I'm a freelancer.
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And for me, I've realized that do little, get more output.
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If you can crack that, I have enough and more time for me.
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So honestly, I can't answer this question because I have no thoughts.
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I've remained exactly the same.
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You mentioned earlier at breakfast that you don't remember anything.
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So every day is a new day.
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But even then, I mean, the question of no desire.
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I mean, I kind of get it in the sense that many people have these long arching ambitions
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ki yeh karenge, wo karenge, yeh banenge, itne paise banange and fine, you don't have that.
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But nevertheless, you have some desires, which is why you kind of have the kind of career
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that you've had, even if you didn't actively plan it out or chase it that way.
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So was it just like a series of was your sort of philosophy and looking back philosophy,
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looking back, but not thinking about it or framing it that way?
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Was it really a thing of just do whatever makes you happy in the moment or jo hoga so
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And that came from a fact that I was exposed to a lot of things.
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I played cricket for Maharashtra.
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I played, you know, my mother's a classical musician.
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So all the cultural aspects were there.
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So I was getting this base level happiness any which way.
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So I didn't have to do ki yeh aage jaake merko yeh concert dekhna hai.
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So I didn't feel any deep desire to do anything.
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But at that moment, I felt ki yaar yeh karke dekhte hain.
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So there's a difference.
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I didn't have any specific desire, but I was curious, yeh maje da rahe hai, yeh karke
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dekhte hain, yeh bhi karthe hain.
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So in that moment, I was getting my happiness.
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So why do I have to change the world?
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That was the core philosophy.
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So you know, Roshan's been on my show before and we've explored his childhood and adulthood
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I won't say middle-aged.
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Though I still believe that we were cheated by that recordist of all our time because
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just as you're getting into the flow of things, he's like, I need to sanitize the studio.
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I've got a recording at 10.
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He was like, I was just like, ah, abhi toh banh shuru hi thi.
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Was the sanitization in Covid time?
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So what basically happened was that Roshan and I did one of those few early recordings
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before I set up my home studio.
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So I'd booked out a studio and I'd taken my four or five hours or whatever there.
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So I assumed ki agar thora extend kar liya, toh theek hai paise paise de denge, but time
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But they said, no, no, there's a recording at 10 p.m.
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And I'm still suspicious ki bhai kya tha, kaun aa raha tha 10 p.m.
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But we only had a four-hour conversation, which was very sad.
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But again, because with Amit, those conversations just keep, they can go on.
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I think if somebody offered to sleep the night here, wo do din tak chalta rahega, wo banega,
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ek 48-hour banne wala hai.
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Toh ye hum koshish karenge abhi aur ek interesting tha, jab Amit ka email aaya, toh mujhe ek feeling
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aisa aaya hai ki the way he had communicated to us, I got a feeling that abhi intellectuals
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Let me lower the benchmark of the show.
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Let me lower the benchmark of the show.
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So that next year, logon ko lagi gaare, wo wala bekha tha abhi achcha hai.
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No, but you know, that's partly what I was aiming for in the sense that not that intellectuals
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bahut ho gaye, they'll all be listening to this and thinking, what bahut ho gaye, mere
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saath paanch gante baat kiya.
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But simply because I think a lot of what happens is a lot of our conversations get damn serious
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and you're lamenting the state of the country and all of that, which deserves to be lamented.
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But at the same time, I think that sometimes you also need to celebrate the little things
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that are there and not so much as celebrate in terms of har cheez mein a positive dhundho.
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But just that, you know, I think all of us have in different ways, found, you know, figured
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out ways to make sense of the world, find happiness for ourselves.
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And it's interesting to sort of for me to look back on that, share the good things and
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And so Vikram, had you had a very tragic life, I may not have called you healthy.
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Who wants to hear that I was impoverished at the age of eight, I mean, I used to beg
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As I said, I'm impoverished, I was probably impoverished, but I forgot.
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As I told you that my ability to forget what's happened in the past, as I told Roshan and
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you in the morning, that I one day made a list of people ki in se mujhe badla lena hai,
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And I forgot why they had done bad things to me, so they decided to cancel the badla.
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And then he forgot the list also.
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I think that is the secret to happiness, low attention span and less memory.
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In the manifestations, which you mentioned it, but I'm sure not by themselves like Roshan
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will know on my writing group, which we are part of the WhatsApp group, I was, I mentioned
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an author yesterday and I said that, okay, you know, he's a good guy.
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But two years back, he exploded at me on social media for something I did, but I couldn't
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I was like, okay, jaan hai toh abhi yaad nahi hai, kuch hua hoga, kuch hua bhai nahi hai.
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Exactly, toh kush hai na tu?
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So to kind of get back to you, so, you know, tell me about your childhood, where did you
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Tell me about your mom.
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So as I said, that I don't remember much, but whatever I remember, I'll tell you that
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I was a service officer's kid.
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My dad was in the air force and I remember most of the postings we were in Bareilly and
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Jamnagar and then the best posting we ever had was the National Defense Academy.
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And that's where I realized that I do not want to join the armed forces because it was
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a beautiful resort, but you don't want to be part of it from the active level.
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And service officers' children have always two options, right?
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Either you get inspired ki humare pardada bhi army mein hua karte the types or second
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is bhai apne pas ki baat nahi hai and that happened to me in the National Defense Academy.
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My dad was, you know, we were on a scooter and the NDA cadets, while they are, you know,
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going on a cycle next to you, if they see a senior officer or wife, you're supposed
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to stretch your arms like this on the cycle, which means that respect diya aapko.
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So we were there and my dad's cosmet, he was also driving and then suddenly he realized
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that yeh cadet ne aise haath nahi kiya tha, stretch nahi kiya tha.
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And he stopped the cadet and asked him, what's your name?
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So I don't remember the cadet's name.
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So it's say, for example, Roshan Abbas.
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So R-O-S-H-S-A front roll sabke samne karnega.
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And that when I saw, I realized, bhai, my dad would start doing this at home.
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So I'm not going to join the National Defense Academy.
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But the good news was because you are an Air Force officer's son, you play golf at a young
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You get exposed to, there's so many cricket grounds there, football grounds.
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So my love for sports started at the National Defense Academy.
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The good news was that some 25 years later, I performed for the 117th course there.
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And I told my father, without doing all this effort, see, I'm addressing the entire academy
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in front of the Admiral of the Indian Navy.
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So that's how my childhood was going from one Air Force station to the other.
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And then one fine day, my parents said ki, yaar isko thoda stabilize karte hai.
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Now Pune at that point of time was, means, you know, Gokhale, Ranade, Agarkar, that was
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the background in Gokhale Institute.
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I know Amit had an interface with that Institute.
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So it was an amazing cosmopolitan world in the armed forces to hardcore puneri.
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And I loved it because in the armed forces, you're not exposed to art in that form, right?
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Everybody, NDA cadets also do a great job when it comes to theater, music and all of
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But when I came to Pune, I realized that there was this new world which I loved, which is,
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you know, getting exposed to going for Sawai Gandharva at six in the morning.
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And my mother shifted with me to make sure my education was good.
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So I was in Karnataka High School.
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I got introduced to Pula Deshpande who I believe is the greatest living legend across the world
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because nobody is an actor, writer, director, harmonium player, music composer, plus ran
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Doordarshan for such a long time and an orator and it's a disrespect to call him a comedian.
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So from that perspective, Indian classical music and my introduction to cricket, I started
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And that's where I realized that I had a lot of cricket in me mentally, but not physically,
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because that was the generation of Sachin Tendulkar, unfortunately for us.
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And that's the reason I wrote this book, How Sachin destroyed my life, which we'll talk
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And I started playing and I realized that I had a good hand-eye coordination.
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The music was going well.
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I started playing the tabla.
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So then once I settled in Pune, I got exposed to this world and I was in Narayanpet, hardcore
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Peshwa territory where music and arts was like flowing.
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Experimental theater was in a big way there.
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And then post that, I joined Ferguson College where I met Amit Varma.
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That's what I was going to say.
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I said Ferguson must have been a common thing for you guys, right?
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That's what you first met?
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The weird thing is, I don't think we knew each other in Ferguson.
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It's only later when we were both working in MTV in the late 90s, 97, 98, that we realized
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that we are both from Ferguson and we had common friends and all of that, whom I'm sure
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He was like, okay, then we actually became friends then.
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So I can technically call him a college friend, but we didn't know each other in college.
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My only theory on that would be that you were, as you keep saying, you're an introvert,
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so you did what to beat you people and Sathe was too lazy to beat anyone.
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No, but you know, I remember him because there was this group of guys who used to play chess
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just near the Ferguson canteen.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Behind the gym building.
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Behind the gym building.
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And I used to see these guys and saying every day they play chess and he was a good chess
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And I was a college captain and played for Maharashtra and all of that.
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So I was told that these guys are great people.
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So if you get a chance to say hello or hi to them, do it.
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So that's why I remember Amit very well.
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And I think, did you ever go to the National Film Archives, NFAI at some point?
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I would have gone there to see films.
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My dad was a director of the FTI, but I would go for the film festivals at NFAI.
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I think I met you there once.
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See, I also forget everything.
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People ask me how is your retention going and I have to tell them that boss, Rome research
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I do all my research one day before the episodes, later on I don't remember anything.
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I have a strange feeling that slowly this episode is going to become Karan Arjun.
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And you mentioned golf.
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And I remember like one of my past guests, Subrata Mohanty, he was in town, I was hanging
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So he told me, you know, the mantra which bankers go by, which is a 963 formula.
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So the 963 formula is, let me see, I don't want to get it wrong.
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Lend at 9%, borrow at 6%, golf at 3 o'clock, since you mentioned golf.
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And I just realized that Roshan a little while earlier spoke about how if you get interested
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in something time, time expands to fill the work available.
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And that's actually where it originates from is Parkinson's law is that work expands to
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fill the time available, which is kind of how I've lived my life.
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Like even if I have one thing to do in a day, it will take the whole damn day.
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So it's, you know, us lazy buggers.
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So tell me a bit more about, you know, Vikram, what you wanted to, like when you were going
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through life like that, you're in a very cultural environment.
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So you're both playing tabla and I presume singing because you do sing quite well and
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you will sing for us later on the show.
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And you're also into cricket and you're kind of picking that up.
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So at this point, you know, what did you think of yourself doing?
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What was your sort of conception of yourself?
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So that is the problem.
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I had no conception of anything up until today.
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So the thing was that my mom was saying that, you know, tabla keep, you know, and today
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in my motivational talks, I talk about the fact that you have to be consistent and blah,
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So whatever I speak today is not something I did and that is the reason I have a gravity
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And I remember having this conversation with Sanjay Manjrekar and he said that one of the
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reasons I can probably analyze the game better is because I was not good enough.
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And I think he did not say it in these words, but this is what I interpreted because this
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was a conversation I had with him about Sachin Tendulkar and he said that many a time Sachin
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Tendulkar did not realize that he was too good to know that there are other people who
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may not be as good enough and therefore you have to plan for them as well.
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And I realized that my understanding of the environment was better from probably a writer's
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perspective is because I could not play the on-drive as good as the other guy.
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Sometimes as artists, as sports people, we do things naturally.
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And this is a conversation again with Sachin Tendulkar and I asked him that, how did you
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And he looked at me like, are you even crazy?
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So I said that, you know, you have to push yourself to do, he said, never.
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If you like something, why would you like to, why would you want to push now?
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He doesn't realize that nine out of 10 people on a bad day require some kind of an external
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stimulus to go and do what they even if they like that activity.
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So for me, I realized that, you know, I was liking this, but there was not that intrinsic
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desire of putting eight hours.
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That is the laziness factor that Roshan talked about.
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But that process of going to Sawai Gandharvan, listening to Pandit Bhimsen Joshi at 6 a.m.
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That gave me joy, and I thought that I have to live in this, I have to live in this joy.
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This doesn't mean that I have to become Pandit Bhimsen Joshi.
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Now that is something I realized that excellence is all right, but I don't have to do it.
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But whoever has excellence, if I go there and stay in that pond, and that is the only reason
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after Ferguson College, when we had no idea about, you know, what to do post-cred, I was
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I realized that, you know, my coach had told me that you got to get at least 300s in that
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season to even come to a point where you will compete with the Mumbai guys, because the
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Mumbai guys were making 2,000-2,000 runs a season.
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Even Maharashtra had a fabulous team at that point of time in Ranji Trophy.
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So then I realized that, boss, this is not good enough, so I will have to prepare for
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the NBA, because the NBA was graduation by that time.
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Boss, you will get a job worth Rs. 8-10,000.
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And thankfully, I had a good set of friends, and I always believed that, boss, five business
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relationships and five friends is what you need to survive in life.
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Because you don't have a bandwidth on this, it's not mine, after that you have acquaintances
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with whom you develop for business, that yes, I will get a business from this.
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But five friends and five business, and I believe that also comes with Pareto's principle.
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If you look back at Roshan's career, probably there are five clients that made his last
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There were a lot of small companies which kind of propelled the 50 lakh, whatever, small
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But the big guys like the Asian page, Amit Singhal, Amit Singhal of the world, exactly.
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And that applies to life as well, that those five relationships, if you develop all your
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life in business and in this thing.
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And this is something that I kept with.
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And I said that these are my four or five friends, this is what I have to do, I have
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to stay in that zone, that boss, I like cricket.
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And then that is where I, I think I interacted with Harsha Bokle for the first time.
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And I said that, yeah, this is an interesting space, again, not because I want to become
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commentator and all, but this is a good space.
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So I was always looking at spaces that I have to swim in this pond, I have to swim in this
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pond, I have to become one or not, I didn't know because as I said, you know, I was living
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those moments at that time.
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And then my friends gathered together and said that, you know, see, again, those five
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friends came to me and said, come on, we will get you educated, you crack the MBA entrance,
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You will not believe I, there was the MBA entrance exam and I was not motivated to
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go for the exam because I didn't know what I will do with finance and marketing and sale.
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There were guys who came to my house, picked me up, took me to the place where the, you
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know, they had taken my study, you know, I had taken the whole preparation for 15 days.
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And one of these guys, Sunil Fattak, who is now in the Bay Area, he knew the system inside
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out, which questions were going to come.
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So he told me that also.
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And I got my MBA entrance and it was a premier college.
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So then I had to do my MBA for two years, there was no option.
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But by that time, I'd realized that media is probably a space I need to go to.
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And thankfully, all these friends, my cricket friends gathered and said, you know, we will
#
find a way out somewhere to get a career.
#
I'd done BSc in geology.
#
You did a BSc in geology?
#
Before that, because what happened was after 12th, everybody was engineering engineering.
#
So I applied for polymer engineering.
#
And again, my mamaji, this is a funny story.
#
My mama came to me and said that, you know, I don't think it's a good idea because I
#
I don't want you to repent.
#
So and I loved my mamaji because he was the one who said that, boss, kuch kar mat.
#
Everybody in the family intellectually oriented, you should do this, you should do that, up
#
So the story is that in BSc, I got five out of five out of 100 in chemistry.
#
So there was a parent's teacher's meetings and my mamaji went to meet the chemistry professor.
#
And I was like, I was really scared.
#
What will he come and stuff like that was outside waiting that kya hoga, kya hoga, kya
#
And I lied to them saying that my parents are out of town.
#
And I told mama that please go on behalf of the parents.
#
So he had also said ki theke isko samaal lumga.
#
And he came out of that parent's teacher's meeting and he hugged me.
#
So I said, why is he hugging me five out of 100?
#
He said, the one before you had three out of 100.
#
So that is the relationship I had with my mama.
#
You know, I think in every family, there is a person like this.
#
There are one set of overachievers and one set of people who are living their life.
#
No, no, because he has suffered.
#
So he sees that one more person is dying.
#
I was thinking that in every family, there is one of these, relax, chill, life will be
#
So to complete the story, he told me not to do engineering.
#
But then there was a balance.
#
You had to satisfy people at home.
#
So it can't be arts, it can't be commerce, it has to be science.
#
So there was B.Sc., which is the most disastrous course in the history of mankind.
#
Because you are neither here nor there, you don't have the status of R&D.
#
So basically, you have to do B.Sc., then in B.Sc., physics, chemistry, the problem was
#
So then geology is now, when I look back, geology was a very interesting subject.
#
So at that time, what is there in rock, in mineral, in mineral, what to see.
#
But finally, I did that.
#
And I remember my grandmother introducing me, typical Marathi family people coming home
#
and said, what has your grandson done?
#
What has your grandson?
#
I told my grandmother, how can you introduce me like this?
#
However, it meant that his career is over, he has done ordinary B.Sc.
#
And there was this look on her face that it's over.
#
So in Pune, you could not have done B.Sc., it was a complete failure.
#
But thankfully, in that process, I realized that even with MBA, I should not be doing,
#
you know, the standard stuff.
#
And that's why when I came to campus, I was one of the toppers and I did not get the companies
#
that I wanted, Coke and Hindustan Lever, at that point of time, you know, my CV was shortlisted
#
and I decided I will go on my own.
#
I went to Mumbai in 1997 and I started a wrestling company.
#
News to both of us, yeh kab hua, yeh kab hua.
#
So when I got my MBA, Jerry Maguire was there and Mark McCormack.
#
By that time, I had clarity that if there was an interface between management and sports,
#
then what would happen?
#
So obviously, watching the movie, I felt that this is a new problem, right?
#
Everybody is watching English Premier League and now every kid in urban India believes
#
that he's going to take the football coach's job at Manchester United or Arsenal.
#
And so I get a call every week from some friend's son who's saying, uncle, I want to be in football.
#
So then suddenly I'll hear why, you know, I want to do something because we lost, said
#
Toh dekho patriotism ka construct dekho abhi, ki patriotism kahan se aata hai ki you know,
#
you play for your college, I played for PYC, I played for Ferguson, I was patriotic.
#
Now this fellow in Ghatkopar is patriotic about Chelsea aur usko udar ka manager ban
#
But that happened to me.
#
That happened to me and I wanted to head IMG, Mark McCormack because he, you know, ran all
#
the businesses, business of sport.
#
And that's what drove me to Mumbai.
#
And that point of time, Premchand Degra had become Mr. Universe.
#
You know, bodybuilding, it's not wrestling as such, but it was bodybuilding, which went
#
And Arnold Schwarzenegger's book I had read at that point of time along with Dorian Yates
#
was the bodybuilder's supreme.
#
And I, one of my friends came to me that yaar apne ko na Mr. Universe Mumbai mein laane
#
So then we contacted Mr. Universe, the franchisee and they said that, you know, we look at you.
#
So I met at that time, instead of doing your summer training or whatever, I met the chief
#
minister of Maharashtra.
#
Chief minister of Maharashtra.
#
And I told him that was Narayan Rane, I said apne ko naane ka hai Mr. Universe.
#
He said, naana ki, leke hao, as if I was getting some like, you know, some bunda ki aaja
#
plane mein baith ke aaja.
#
But that kind of, you know, but that six months was very important because I realized at that
#
time that the sports business is not to do with actually organizing sports.
#
It was about television.
#
And for me, it was important that, you know, to join television, to understand the sporting
#
business and that's where, you know, we, the MTV offer happened and I used to do summer
#
training at, you know, a company called plus channel during my stint and which was owned
#
And there I met this, Amit Khanna, Mahesh Bhatt and there was this movie they had done
#
called Papa Kehte Hai, whose soundtrack was excellent actually.
#
I was there at this recording and then I said, yaar, yeh mazidaar area hai.
#
Obviously Bollywood regular exposure was there, but I said that this is an interesting area
#
that I should probably look at in the future.
#
And there was this American, Japanese boss who you know very well, Niren Hiro, he's a
#
I remember a story that he was the one who taught me, you know, fundamentals of marketing.
#
So what is an ad, dude, headline, bari, copy, baseline out.
#
So he was teaching me this whole principle of advertising in the car one day and we were
#
going past Prabha Devi and there was this creative guy also sitting Pankaj next to me
#
and he was saying, you know, this is how the logo should be.
#
Dude, you got to get this right, this right.
#
And suddenly we look outside and there is a Shiv Sena poster on the side, Prabha Devi
#
There is Tiger and there is Bala Sahib Thackeray.
#
He suddenly like, dude, who cleared that layout?
#
And I was like, this guy is so funny.
#
He actually got me into MTV while I, but before that, again, my love for Mark McCormack made
#
me join professional management group.
#
So what happened during the time when I was playing cricket, I had befriended Sameer Dighe.
#
Sameer Dighe was then Mumbai captain and he played for Mumbai with Sachin and the whole
#
amazing gang, Nilesh Kulkarni, Paras Mamre, Saleel Ankola, the story that Saleel Ankola,
#
every time I meet him, even today, I'm scared of him because a ball that was pitch shot,
#
I still have the bruise in my chest because he was very, very quick at that point of time.
#
And yeah, so Sameer Dighe I knew and I called him and I said that, you know, I started this
#
company and all and I don't know what to do, but I want to be in cricket.
#
So he introduced me to Hemant Kinkre, Hemant Kinkre is Sunil Gavaskar's cousin and he was
#
earlier married to Asha Bhosle's daughter, fabulous cricketer, good batsman for CCI.
#
He said that, you know, I'll introduce you to Mr. Gavaskar and Sumed Shah who ran professional
#
management group, which was the only company at that point of time, which kind of resembled,
#
you know, this cricketing world and management kind of a world.
#
I met Harsha that time and I met Harsha and told him that, you know, I want to be in this
#
He said, you work in PMG.
#
I also worked there years back.
#
So you'll get some basic exposure there.
#
But it was a year's stint with that's where I started imitating Sunil Gavaskar.
#
And you know, I used to do this in front of Vaishali Hotel.
#
I don't know, Amit will not remember that I used to gather a crowd imitating cricketers.
#
And that is where that theatre, music, cricket all came together and you're still at MTV
#
I have not joined MTV yet.
#
So this is the stint before.
#
This is the stint before, just eight to 10 months trying to see whether the sports business
#
And I realized that there is no sports business in India.
#
I think the sports business in India started after IPL, till that time it was only BCCI.
#
BCCI tells you what to do.
#
If you call it business, then it's good for you.
#
Otherwise, there's nothing else.
#
Then I worked with Mr. Gavaskar and I realized that there is nothing here.
#
And television is what I need to do.
#
That's what brought me to music television.
#
Did you get, sorry, did you get Mr. Universe or no, that's what I was going to say.
#
Did you get Mr. Universe?
#
I didn't get it because it was a wrong idea.
#
Oh, a couple of things I want to sort of double click on before we continue with the chronology.
#
And one of them is very interesting where you, you know, you speak about how when you
#
were playing cricket, it was obvious to you that you're not, you know, going to be at
#
And I remember I retired from chess as a 19 year old in the early 90s when I kind of came
#
to the same realization, ki Anand toh banne nahi wala hu.
#
So you know, what is the point?
#
And also in the particular club where I played, which was a fatke club in Pune in the early
#
90s, there were these couple of kids who were really good, much better than me.
#
So I thought ki, ki kids here are beating me bahar gaya chance hai, phir ek grandmaster
#
ban gaya, ek master ban gaya, you know, I shouldn't have been too hard on myself.
#
But the thing here is that in sport, you know, when you're not good, because you're getting
#
that instant feedback ki, you know, Saleel Ankola ne bowl ki, ribs pe laga, abhi, you
#
know, I can't walk properly for two days.
#
But in art, that feedback loop is in there.
#
And therefore what happens is that a lot of people who get into the arts, whether they
#
are singing or writing or whatever, they think they are much better than they are.
#
Now there are two sides to this.
#
And the negative side is you can waste a lot of time doing something you're not cut out
#
for because you don't have the self awareness.
#
But the positive side is that you don't know that you suck because everybody sucks at the
#
start whenever they do something, you don't know that you suck.
#
So you continue and just the sheer hard work that you then put in and the sheer repetition
#
actually makes you good at it.
#
Basically you fake it till you make it.
#
Like when I think of myself as a writer in my 20s, my writing was shit, and I didn't
#
have the judgment to know it.
#
So you know, I, you know, I wrote bad things, I thought I was a cat's whiskers, but it's
#
a good thing because I, you know, that self delusion just kind of keeps you going.
#
So these seem to me to be two very different ways in which it plays out that in sport,
#
you know exactly where you are, and you know the work you need to do to get ahead.
#
And that's got his good and bad aspects in the, the good aspect of that is you can work
#
And the bad aspect of that is that you can get disheartened.
#
Maybe you could have been something good, but you don't put in the work.
#
Whereas in the arts, again, there's the same thing.
#
You don't know that feedback loop is in there and it can work in both good and bad ways.
#
I think it's a very important point that in sport, the metric is very clear.
#
It's what you see, right?
#
And in that under 15 game in Mumbai, when I saw Tendulkar play, when I saw Vinod play
#
and while we were grafting, you know, scoring say 25 runs in 40 balls, and we thought the
#
conditions were difficult.
#
And here was a guy who had scored 120 not out in the first, you know, first one or one
#
And he left that match and went to Thana and scored another hundred runs.
#
So the benchmark was like so high that you are like, you're not even in the play 11 boss.
#
You should not be playing this game.
#
So the metric is very, very clear.
#
In art, there is a very complex problem, right?
#
Because art, you don't know what the metric is.
#
You also work on conviction and everybody tells you that keep boss like, you know, as
#
a filmmaker, also Roshan would tell you that many a times I've seen, and I worked in the
#
movie industry for a couple of years as well, that what is the line where you say that boss
#
I trust my creative as a director, but people are telling you that boss your script is faulty.
#
But no, you have to take a call.
#
Should you listen to the person because they say the script is faulty or because you've
#
been also told that a creator has to have conviction in doing your creative work.
#
This creates a problem.
#
So see, I have a slight disagreement on this, which is the fact of saying that, you know,
#
when you work in the creative and saying that, you know, you don't know whether you're good
#
or you're bad or whatever, not true.
#
What happens is if you make your art incestuous, if you only listen to either yourself or a
#
few people who may be your yes people around you, you know, you can be in that loop of
#
never knowing how you are.
#
But if you put your art to test, I can be using my cricket bat sitting inside my room
#
and constantly practicing a, you know, what some stroke or the other, but till I don't
#
go out and actually do it, you will never get to know.
#
In art, I mean, and personally, I tell you this, that when I moved from Lucknow to Delhi
#
and when I first went out and said, I can think I'm a great debater or I can take part
#
If I lose every debate in the world, then obviously I'm not a good debater.
#
I can get onto radio, which is what I did next or whatever and stuff.
#
And you know, if I'm not moved into A grade recording artist within three months.
#
So you know, I actually always set these little targets for myself because I remember at that
#
time with Oprah, there used to be this other, there was this male Phil Donahue.
#
And Donahue used to do an interview and one of Donahue's articles turned and said that
#
a great career if you're on TV is that if you're lucky, you'll get 10 years.
#
If you're great, you might get, if you're lucky, you'll get five.
#
If you're great, you'll get 10.
#
And if you're God, you might end up getting more.
#
So you know, so immediately when I'm at 25, I did television, I said boss 35 par yeh
#
nahi khata hune wali bhi gud tak toh main hu.
#
God hai nahi hoga, leke good great ka beech mein I'll manage.
#
So I set that as a target, you know, and I sometimes feel this that if you don't, I was
#
at Edinburgh, you know, in August, you're not just doing your show, you're on the road selling
#
You're standing out there every day and saying, come see my show, come see my show and the
#
number of people who come to your show, then other people will go and tell the next set
#
You know, the problem is this that very often when you get incestuous about, I remember
#
Public Demand was a show I used to do, I used to go out on the road, shoot every day and
#
And because we used to be produced by TV 18 in those days, there were a bunch of TV 18
#
interns standing outside.
#
So the cameraman and my director said, yahi shoot kal leti.
#
And we shot with all of those people, got fabulous bites.
#
And it went into the episode.
#
Raghav Bell, who was the head of TV 18, along with Rasi, who was the creative director, used
#
to put up these things on the wall as a review.
#
And I still remember he put up this review and he said, I saw the latest episode of Public
#
Love this, this, this, this.
#
By the way, that last segment is being shot with our people.
#
If you become so incestuous with your production, you will, if it is meant to be public demand,
#
You know, and it really struck home for me saying that aap apne daire ko na chab tak
#
challenge nahi karenge, if you don't keep testing that boundary, I worked with Vikram
#
for years on end, right?
#
I have seen him test that boundary.
#
The first time it was just an impression of X, then it became X plus Y.
#
Then he heard a bunch of us doing singing act.
#
He never used to do a singing act before.
#
He heard it and he said, main tu sachcha kar sakta hu.
#
Then he saw there was, you know, I mean, I've actually tracked him through this all because
#
But I've seen him do that.
#
He's challenged every boundary, tested it, jo nahi chala hai wo drop kar hain.
#
You're conscious of your art.
#
You know, yeh jo kahin par conceit of art ho jaati hai, usme aap phaz jaate hai.
#
So I keep saying, my only thing is I'm saying whatever you do, keep testing.
#
If you were not able to make money from the podcast today, Amit, with all the circles
#
you created around it, at some point in time, you turn and say, ya toh ma apne li kar raha
#
But isme Roshan, art me bhi na, do kind of situations hai, ek hai jo short term me.
#
Like performing art me kya hota hai, aapko metric mil jata hai.
#
End up comedy, performing art me metric milta hai, aapko art show me agar koi hasa nahi,
#
toh aapko pata chal jata hai ki boss you're not good enough or you have to up the game.
#
But in long form art, which is maybe a book, writing a book or making a film, making theatre,
#
what happens is there are a lot of phases during that process where you are going by
#
conviction you're not able to take feedback because you have to decide ki boss yeh kar
#
And that is where I think many a times people, unka problem ho jata hai, because usme hai
#
Magar wo conviction se chal raha hai, magar picture aane ke baad lagta hai ki boss isme
#
And also I'll tell you, Javed sahab ke sath, you know, all the work that one did, once
#
I remember unka ek Tarkash me share hai na, gin-gin ke sikke haath mera khurdura hua,
#
jaati rahi lumps ki nami, bura hua.
#
You know, I was so busy counting money that at some point I lost the sensitivity, I lost
#
Very often when we, and see we've been through this thing, we are sensitive to the world
#
outside, we are sensitive to all reaction, I mean we react to everything that's happening
#
around us, which creates, which in some sense, you know, provokes our art or creates our
#
After a point in time when you lose that focus and you move ahead, see when you talk of cricket
#
also, here's this guy who's bowling really really well, but there's also this guy who
#
is just practicing the bowling 24-7, wo bhi toh achcha khiladi hai.
#
Aapka assumption, Zakir ne bhi show me kodi cheez kahi thi, apni success ko aap isse
#
measure karein aapne shuru kahan se kara tha, wahan se na measure karein aap kahan pohj
#
Chuki agar aaj mein kahoon ke main raees hua, phir mein Ambani se compare karon, toh
#
mein kahan hua, lekin jahaan se main shuru kara tha.
#
If you can at least do some kind of a progress report of what you have done, where you've
#
reached, look at what you, I mean look at where you've reached or I mean Amit when he
#
talks about his podcasting, I hate the 30 minute format because today the format has
#
evolved to where it is, but it has also evolved because you've got feedback, you've got constant,
#
I mean I think you built so many feedback loops and building feedback loops into anything
#
But you know, okay, so I'll all of which is correct and I agree with that, but I'll add
#
a layer to that, which is that with a sports person, with a cricketer, if you're a batsman,
#
there is one metric, it is an objective metric, it is how many runs you're making, you can
#
get unlucky in one innings or whatever, but over a decent sample size, pata chal jata
#
With art, the problem is that there are two different kinds of metrics, right?
#
And one is the metric of just immediate popularity, that you're getting the talis now, you're
#
getting the numbers now and that is one kind of metric and you do what, and you focus on
#
that and you do whatever it takes to get you there.
#
The other is a metric where you are really sort of not catering to that mass, where you're
#
saying ki mujhe niche pakarna hai or mujhe niche banana hai from scratch, there's no
#
niche there, but I will make it.
#
You know, people who have a certain sensibility, who will appreciate what you do, where you
#
say that those numbers don't matter and therefore the metric of mass popularity doesn't matter
#
and you're catering to something else, which at that moment is invisible.
#
Like for example, if I had to go by the mass popularity method, by the feedback I was getting
#
through the feedback loop I had, everybody would have said do one hour episodes.
#
In fact, initially do 20 minute episodes.
#
You know, the point that I do the long episodes that I do is because I stuck to saying that
#
I will do what I want to do and you know, and that will attract audience of a similar
#
sensibility to me and the only way I can become good at it is by doing it again and again.
#
So even if I'm initially there is no feedback in that direction, I have to keep doing it.
#
But that Amitna is somewhere that I'm saying that see that feedback that was coming to
#
you was not listener feedback, it was supposed people who know podcasting, when no one knew
#
podcasting at that time in India.
#
It's the Balaji problem of Netflix.
#
Wherever, any place you go now in OTT, there is a set of people who thought they knew storytelling
#
and boss, I used to come to GC, the format of GC was different, the pattern of GC was
#
Now if you apply the same metric somewhere else, you went by your conviction, but ultimately
#
the conviction got ratification by today that those mad fans of yours everywhere.
#
I mean, I see those meetups that are happening in cities where you're traveling.
#
It is that ratification.
#
It is Sathe being called by Sachin to his house saying, that is the ultimate ratification.
#
But you know, Amit, you're making a very, very important point and that is something
#
that you suffer because you put your marketing lens.
#
I remember having a conversation with Vijay Tendulkar, the great playwright and you know,
#
I became friends with Tendulkar and you know, every Tendulkar verse, so thanks to that background
#
and knowing people from the theater industry, Tendulkar, Dubai had kind of become my personal
#
friends and my house in Banda, they would come, they would have a drink with me, share
#
stories from when he wrote Gidhade and Ghashiram Kotwal.
#
And he used to always tell me when I used to ask him that, you know, what drove your
#
He said, this is what I wanted to tell a story.
#
Now the moment you go into consumer feedback and you put your marketing hat and then you
#
do a quintessential marketing thing that has been taught to us.
#
What does the youth want?
#
The only question in marketing conferences, what does the youth want?
#
But the moment you go into the lens of what the audience wants, I think you will start
#
killing your creativity because the genesis of creativity is coming from what I have felt
#
from the surroundings in my nature nurture journey.
#
And I am now putting it into a format which is called art, whether it's performing art
#
And in that process, now when I put a lens of my consumer, who are there, they want Vikram
#
to start with singing, defeats the purpose.
#
And the problem is your first creative work is what you feel.
#
Unfortunately, most creative work after that is what people want when you turn into a marketer
#
from a creator and very few creative people are able to maintain that integrity, probably
#
because they've got success in a big way in the initial phase of their career because
#
of the original stuff that they created that they can afford to follow their creative field.
#
The moment you go that, you know, my market research tells me that 15 to 24 require this
#
And I think that the point that you make there is very critical is that how does a creative
#
person figure this challenge out?
#
Because he's been told that Roshan Bhai, the picture that you have made now, have you seen
#
Make something like that.
#
There should be something visual.
#
And poor Roshan took a script, a story and he's putting Pushpa's action in it.
#
And that challenge for creative remains forever.
#
No, no, but see that's what I'm saying that there has to be, so do not give in to the
#
fact of, oh, he's asking for the market, but I'm saying over a period of time, you get
#
a set of people who you know are giving you, like, I mean, you know, you have a set of
#
people who you will turn to for advice.
#
We'll occasionally have those conversations, right?
#
And I think building this virtuous circle around you is an important thing.
#
The second thing which is really important is, I think, is, they go, a great cricketer
#
should be able to play all three formats, true or not true?
#
Not true because it's a different sport.
#
Now that's what I'm saying.
#
So is he not a great cricketer?
#
If he didn't serve, no.
#
So is it a matter of conviction or is it a matter of choice?
#
So I'm just saying that he knows how to play cricket, he's playing well in the test, he
#
couldn't play one day, he couldn't play T20, he's playing well in T20, he can't play
#
Now, is he, therefore, I'm saying that, see, success is not the length, it's not the measure
#
Ultimately, it has to be, I know this craft and I'm doing enough with the craft.
#
I mean, I'm telling you, I'm such a big believer in experimentation and trying new things,
#
which is actually exactly the opposite.
#
We have this thing all the time, aah, bahut karte, you know, agar nahi karoge, toh wo
#
nahi duniya kaha dikhenge, agar Amit ne clear writing nahi shuru kara hota, I mean, I'm
#
still dying to see your TikTok course, which we were doing on WhatsApp, because I want
#
to know what was your view on it.
#
Even today, when I'm in Dubai on another phone, I'm watching TikTok because I want to know
#
what is that short form format?
#
Is there anything I could do there?
#
The minute commerce enters, the equation is very different.
#
Just for the second, I mean, I was doing this play, what was it?
#
It's completely different.
#
And yeh, yeh karta hai.
#
Commerce ki lens, saate ke liye commerce ki lens liye, because for you, it's a thing
#
Itne time mein so bhi sakta na.
#
In this management, there's a time when he was doing 20 shows a month, and then, aap
#
And that is him, because that time away when he's sitting at home and he does these baithaks
#
in Pune, or he's doing, you know, work around spot, is when you're actually fermenting
#
That I think is really the best part of the process.
#
And I think, you know, consumer feedback is a problem for creative.
#
I would like to believe that in the past during, even in Bollywood, if you say the, you know,
#
time when Raj Kapoor and, you know, your metric of failure was only box office.
#
People didn't, it was not like the social media technology changed the game completely,
#
because now you're getting negative feedback from people who have no understanding.
#
They've not even seen your work.
#
And that's a problem, because today if you Raj Kapoor made a bad film or, you know, Prithviraj
#
Kapoor did some bad play or whatever, hey wo baar yaar maja nahi aaya hai, itna hi feedback
#
Aaj problem kya ho gaya, creative boundary, cross karne ko creative dar gaya hai.
#
Because he's saying, nahi aaya hai, social media pe yeh na, yeh log gaali dete hai, ek
#
aisa type ka main meme banata hu, wo jada chalega.
#
And I think the biggest challenge, the good thing about technology, we discovered more
#
That was the good thing.
#
But I think good creative people are going to get scared to put out newer forms of creative
#
work only because it's not popular.
#
So when I used to teach my podcasting course, I remember at one point somebody asked a question,
#
sir, where are the gaps in the market?
#
And I was like, boss yeh bahut galat nazari aaya hai, because if there are gaps in the
#
market, a million people will go for them, find them, do whatever.
#
The point is the only thing that makes you unique among the seven billion, uswak seven
#
billion tha abhi eight billion ho gaya hai shayad, people on the planet is you.
#
So you just be authentic to yourself and do what you have to do.
#
Now the thing with feedback loops also is that they take a long period of time.
#
Like honestly, Roshan, even with my podcast, first three or four years even, I had no idea
#
that I was doing something which was really valued by people.
#
It was just, you know, I liked it.
#
It was only after COVID when I said, okay, whoever wants to, you know, contribute financially
#
to the show, you can do so.
#
Suddenly, month one, I was like, what is happening?
#
You know, that's when I kind of realized.
#
And then with the clear writing course, when people signed up, that's when I kind of began
#
to interface with those people and realized that it means so much to so many people.
#
But otherwise it is a completely dispersed thing and I have no idea.
#
But once I know, then I can double down on the things that I find of value in it.
#
And what you're saying about creators, Vikram is so true because if you are chasing the numbers,
#
everybody's going to the lowest common denominator.
#
And secondly, today we are in a space where AI is going to do that way better than us.
#
You know, if you look at, and friends, I'll be to GPT 3.5 children, but GPT 4, some friends
#
of mine have seen it in private and they're raving about it.
#
They're saying it's mad.
#
And you know, we are recording this at the start of December.
#
But what we, so even the GPT we see today is not at the level, you know, it's going
#
to just exponentially get better.
#
So I think for an artist, you know, you have to not chase gaps in the market as it were,
#
You know, to add to what you said over there, but this morning I saw something incredible.
#
There's a show called Bed This Day, which is currently taking the world by storm and
#
whatever, you know, and, and I wonder who watches what nowadays because it's crazy.
#
Now Jenna Ortega, this girl who's in the show, who in the last 10 days has gone to from 2.3
#
million followers to 12.3 million followers every day, she's added, she's just acting
#
She's a brilliant actress.
#
I think she really gives so much to the character, but it's directed by Tim Burton, but Tim Burton's
#
vision is visible in every frame that you see.
#
And in one era, there was a cult, there was no mass.
#
When Edward Scissorhands, etc, at the time you were saying, oh, Beetlejuice, what's
#
But that's what I'm saying.
#
But you know, he has conviction in himself.
#
Jenna Ortega will find it very difficult after Bed This Day gets over, though it will obviously
#
run into multiple seasons, to that when she does her next work, if it doesn't get this
#
appreciated because this dopamine hit now of constant like, like, like, like, which is
#
why I say that over a period of time, I've done something like 15 years, so I know that
#
when I've been, you know, people say, oh, so, I said, no, boss, you see success, I've
#
I've seen it many times.
#
I've seen it in small things.
#
I've seen it here and there.
#
I've made this show, it didn't work, it didn't work, it didn't work in the film, it didn't
#
But the fact is that I'm constantly keeping up with this whole space of saying, try new
#
things, have a set of people and it's not I'm not asking you for feedback, but even
#
if I have the conversation with you, there is enough to take away.
#
See, the problem is that everybody, whether you're a theatre actor, whether you are a,
#
you know, say, Bollywood actor, whether you are probably, you know, making, you're a sculptor,
#
everybody can't get an eight billion audience here.
#
And this is a standard problem that we have even in sport.
#
And many times I go and I'm talking about the game, everybody says, sir, you are cricket.
#
You don't know how wrestlers are suffering.
#
You don't know how chess players are suffering.
#
And I said, you know, you have to understand that every sport has a different audience.
#
And just because something is 10,000 crores doesn't mean 50 crore is bad.
#
A small scale company doesn't, you know, just because Reliance is a big company doesn't
#
mean a bearings manufacturer in Pune is bad.
#
Reliance has his own space.
#
So you're saying that everyone has to become a big company.
#
There will be no space for MSME.
#
Similarly, there is a market for chess, but you have to think about whether you are at
#
the top in the market for chess.
#
But unfortunately, if everybody wants to become cricket and a, you know, a $10 billion company
#
and there is no argument, right?
#
If we are going to play cocoa or we are going to play atta patya or we are going to try
#
to make these, you know, sports that have been there in India for a while successful.
#
Why are we looking at cricket?
#
Let's make a successful five crore enterprise.
#
Let's make that sport, you know, successful in that particular segment and therefore get
#
the economics right in that segment.
#
But unfortunately, every conference you go to, you know, this is the problem.
#
Badminton should be the new cricket.
#
Couple of thoughts on this.
#
One, of course, is from the creator economy where Kevin Kelly wrote that famous essay
#
12 years back, thousand true fans, where the thesis is key.
#
Don't think of it any more in terms of winner takes all, which the entertainment industry
#
has been before that the people at the 1% will make all the money and the rest are strugglers
#
But instead, you know, if you get a thousand true fans who are willing to pay a hundred
#
dollars a year for your work, that's enough.
#
And we see that on Substack with some the standard subscription model is a hundred dollars
#
a year and you have many previously unknown Substackers making a decent amount of money
#
That's sort of one aspect of it that you don't have to necessarily reach out to all those
#
So, you know, so on this, there's this new podcast, which is being done by the Bombay
#
I hope I don't take the wrong company's name, but you know, the Shantanu, this guy who's
#
an entrepreneur has been doing and he's talking about entrepreneurship.
#
And one person in that podcast we interviewed said this, saying that, you know, a tennis
#
He said that the hundred tennis player earns about half a million dollars and the top guy
#
And he did exactly this.
#
He said, look at badminton, where the number one player earns X and the number hundred
#
He said, you know, the comparison, you should know the extent to which you are playing.
#
That whole thing, which you occasionally joked about saying that Mr. Gavaskar is very upset
#
even today about the fact that he didn't make money from cricket because the time when he
#
was there, cricket was not a money making sport.
#
Now today it's such a money making sport.
#
But he made the maximum money in his 10, which he forgets.
#
Which is what I'm saying.
#
That's what I'm saying.
#
But Satya, that's what I'm saying that do not, because I was an anchor to a very large
#
degree, I often had to stay in this thing of he has a car, he has this, he has that,
#
he doesn't know what it was.
#
I don't know whether it is the Lucknow upbringing, whatever it is, but I never compared it.
#
But I said, where have I come from?
#
Exactly Roshan, here the problem is also in cricket and also in Bollywood.
#
Even in cricket, 20 people are earning a multi-million salary in IPL.
#
The other 100 players are in the small range.
#
Similarly, even in our entertainment industry, you take the 20 Bollywood stars out, you take
#
the five or six TV stars out, rest are not going to make that much money.
#
But the aspiration of those guys is to become Ranveer Singh.
#
Now the moment you start comparing yourself with Ranveer Singh's annual income, you have,
#
The problem is in every field, you want all everyone in that entire ecosystem to become
#
the unicorn of that field.
#
And unless we reconcile to the fact that even the smaller guys are viable, as long as you
#
are viable, as long as you know that you can continue building good sportsmen or good artists
#
in that sphere, you should be happy.
#
But then if you also want 150 million likes like Cristiano Ronaldo, when you are playing
#
probably Kabaddi in Tiruchirapalli, then you should be worried about how your success in
#
that state is rather than getting followers.
#
See what's happening with startups, right, over the last three years and also this thing
#
about suddenly, I mean, everybody will join whichever new trend is coming.
#
But now startups, remember that I used to joke and say that in the late 80s, if you
#
didn't do anything, then people would ask you what do you do, you would say, I work
#
Then a few years later, you turned and said, I work in event management.
#
It continued and last was, I work in digital.
#
Now it was, I'm an entrepreneur.
#
Everybody is a startup entrepreneur.
#
And whoever lost their job, how will they get credibility?
#
I'm just working on my startup.
#
Now my problem, and because of my thing, seeing investor, because I invested a bunch of startups
#
or whatever, there's a set of emails every day and I promise you they're a case study.
#
Because one thing is the flattery one, I have seen your life, I want to become you, blah,
#
One thing is, I've got this idea that no one else has ever had, you know, and ideas are
#
Where's the implementation?
#
True entrepreneur will be seen right now when this funding winter is going on.
#
Suddenly there's a big funding.
#
Now you'll find out who's actually in how much water.
#
Look, the rising tide carries all boards, but now you'll find out that when it's coming
#
down, who's in how much water, right?
#
Suddenly those same people who are giving you that million dollar check are not even
#
I mean, they actually say, boss, I'm sorry, no more money.
#
Two of my friends had to exit.
#
I exited a company last year because I thought I'll get a great value.
#
I said, no, no, no, five X or better called me two weeks back and he said, you know, I
#
had to take a haircut and take what you 30% of what you took because they said markets
#
So this thing of following, chasing that train, tick tock star banjao, ye banjao, basic talent
#
jo hai na, pehle dekhlo bhaiya wo hai ki nahi hai.
#
I have never taken a haircut.
#
You know, you mentioned startups, so I remembered the second point I wanted to make with the
#
thousand two fans point, which was that I did an episode with Vinay Singhal right now.
#
Vinay Singhal is one guy who said, I won't follow the trend.
#
He started this company called stage.
#
Have you heard of Vikram ko puchta haan.
#
So what, so what stage decided was that we will be an OTT for Bharat, but not an OTT
#
for Bharat in terms of Hindi, Punjabi in these major languages, but for the dialects.
#
Now I had always thought that, you know, that with urbanization and the forces of capitalism
#
and people going for scale, that there's going to be a certain homogenization that you grow
#
up in a Haryana village, you have a particular dialect, you go to a city, but then your incentives
#
are to learn the languages of the city, which could be Hindi if it's a North city or it
#
could be English and gradually dialects die.
#
And Vinay's narrative has a lot of this happening in the first part of his life where he is
#
embarrassed of his dialect.
#
He speaks about a struggle learning English and then he speaks about a struggle learning
#
Hindi, you know, and so, but he started an OTT for dialects like Haryanvi, Bhojpuri
#
I think are the three that they have now and that's worked remarkably well.
#
They've got a lack and a half subscribers at Netflix rates.
#
And I see a movement towards the opposite direction now again fueled by capitalism, but
#
also with the aid of technology, which is empowering individual creators where a creator
#
can today go out there and say, ki, theek hai mai Haryanvi ho, mai aise baat karta ho,
#
You know, I'm not going to try to fit in.
#
I don't care where the large market is, mai apna karunga.
#
And those markets are now taking shape.
#
Like Vinay spoke about this reverse migration from Bollywood, ki pehle Haryanvi bache Bombay
#
aate the, Bollywood mein film kaam karenge, today they are going back.
#
And I find this very interesting because what this means to me is a semi-permanent shift
#
away from the mainstream being everything.
#
They will still be a mainstream, but it will no longer be everything that people will also
#
have their own ecosystems where, you know, they'll be dispersed audiences will be whatever,
#
but they can form the, like I have my little ecosystems, which I, as a consumer, which
#
I keep dipping into, like including chess, for example, which you guys might not even
#
And they are big enough to be successful.
#
You no longer need scale thinking of financially viable.
#
No, but are you comfortable with the niche that Haryanvi actor going back and working
#
on the stage has to be comfortable currently with the fact that it will be perhaps a hundred
#
Now, if he again goes back to the Ranveer Singh comparison, he'll be sitting and saying,
#
yaar yahan ka hi ussarvanveer ban dia, lekin wahan ka kab ban bhiwa.
#
But kya hai Roshan, jab yeh organize hoega aur iska evolution hoga, toh uska jo revenue
#
hai probably will be better than many Bollywood actors here.
#
Forget the top 8-10, but if I'm a Haryana, Haryana ka Ranveer Singh, I will make more
#
money than a whole lot of people in mainstream Bollywood.
#
But my point is you don't have to be Haryana ka Ranveer Singh.
#
You can be Haryana ka whatever.
#
But the fact that Gajraj Rao can survive and make money in Haryanvi is, is a great thing.
#
Is where we need to be.
#
And the other unique thing that will happen over a period of time is, one is you get comfortable
#
with telling stories in your own bhaasha boli, as he said, that beautiful line.
#
Ke main apni boli mein apni dialect mein kahani batara hu, phir aap dosri cheez karenge,
#
aap pehle toh apni kahania batayenge.
#
And when the stories are deeply personal, they are absolutely universal.
#
So when a parasite suddenly wins an Oscar, it's why?
#
Because and this is where I believe that AI, etc. is going to say, here is a Haryanvi thing,
#
but I'm able to dub it.
#
I'm currently working with two startups where these guys are doing dubbing, which is going
#
So first it will take any dialect as long as the AI has got the ability to translate
#
So from, from audio to text, then it'll take the text, translate it into another language.
#
It'll contextualize with a human individual to see whether that is working.
#
And then it's going to lay it back in another emotional voice.
#
Now imagine what will happen to content then, then it'll be the, then it'll be the success
#
And that's what I'm saying.
#
And therefore going deeply niche is actually going to bring about something unique.
#
And I'm hoping for that.
#
And I think what it will also do is that if at one point of time for a hundred years,
#
the aspirational cool dudes have been mainstream Bollywood actor,
#
Did he cut or suppose my Haryana, I see that my hero is the star of Haryana.
#
So then, and he also has a BMW 7 series, which used to be with Ranveer Singh.
#
The moment all those parameters come in my local hero, then my need to relate to Ranveer
#
Singh or probably any Bollywood actor is much lesser because I know that my heroes also
#
And therefore I think it will kind of equalize.
#
And that is probably the reason the South Indian stars in the past, Rajnikanth wanted
#
to come and do mainstream Hindi films.
#
They don't want to do it anymore.
#
Now why would they want to?
#
They might just want to do it because they want to have a North Indian audience.
#
But now that problem has also been solved.
#
North Indian audience is watching South Indian films.
#
The Pushpa you saw, sorry, I'm just butting in, but the Pushpa you saw in Hindi, because
#
you saw it in Hindi, was dubbed by Shreyas Talpade.
#
And dubbed so beautifully, look at that level of dubbing.
#
And that's what made the film.
#
They didn't change the film.
#
And the problem Bollywood is doing right now, so many of my friends tell me this, they say
#
that they make a South Indian film, no brother, it's their narrative, they can tie a lungi
#
and slide their slippers there.
#
If you do it in Bombay, someone will slap you.
#
But the thing is, sir, conventionally in India, from Punjab and North India, we look, because
#
they had a celebratory culture, they wore nice clothes, so an aspiration was made that
#
But now what is that now in every state, if the same looking people are speaking in Haryanvi
#
or in Gujarati, then my aspiration is over, right?
#
I don't want to do Bollywood's film because my hero is sitting here.
#
And I think that will be a very, very good thing for India.
#
The appetite in the small cities right now, I was telling Amit about the concert market
#
or whatever, saying that there are three cities in India that make money, which is Delhi,
#
These are the only ones where you can make money off big concerts.
#
But today, who's stopping you from taking those 20 and 90 other cities, where there
#
is the money, you just need to figure out what is the model and take those shows there
#
You don't have to make money here, you have to make it here.
#
The opportunity that is India right now, honestly, and people say this, saying that, okay, for
#
everything that is wrong in the last so many years of governance or whatever, the growth
#
of the small city is mind blowing.
#
And what have you given them?
#
You gave them infrastructure, you gave them IT, and now, boss, the road is open.
#
They have the hunger and hiring people from smaller cities.
#
I've always seen people turn and say, oh, there's a Lucknow quota at it.
#
No, no, this is the ultimate thing.
#
I tell people, those who don't know English, recruit them because they'll have a fire.
#
More hunger, more desire.
#
There's a selection bias that they've come so far as to reach you, so they wanted that
#
Look at sport and look at Haryana.
#
I mean, today, no fast bowler from urban places will go beyond 120 because he's not seen distance
#
So I'm very, I'm very struck by what Roshan said about, you know, that tell your story
#
in Haryanvi and all stories are universal and it will reach everywhere.
#
And I'm reminded of Ayan Rand's quote about how the smallest minority is individual.
#
And I think the biggest niche is individual.
#
If you're just true to yourself, it will reach everybody, which is a big lesson here.
#
And also I could see Vikram's brain working over time when you mentioned that AI, which
#
will do the dubbing and all that, anybody's voice can be done.
#
You know, you put an AI to work on all three of us, we don't need to physically talk and
#
have this conversation.
#
AI will have the conversation and I'm telling you, Vikram is always working towards what
#
is the highest output with the least input and I am the king of minimalism, that's leveraging,
#
And I sat with him and said, Vikram, let's do this, he'll support me to death, but it's
#
My frustration, the type, why I want to do this, let's do it, because I can see the effort.
#
When we went to celebrate his 40th, we're sitting there, my wife says, Vikram, you can
#
I don't like this surprise concept.
#
You had a surprise party.
#
They had a surprise party.
#
Look, I say all this, but control is very important to me.
#
If you gave me a surprise, it wasn't in my control.
#
That means I'm not happy.
#
So you can't do a surprise 50th party.
#
I don't plan a surprise party for myself.
#
It will be a surprise if you execute it.
#
So before we get back to your chronology, I wanted to double click on something else
#
that you said, which was fascinating, where you said that what you need to get ahead in
#
life is five friends, five business contacts, five people, and you get by.
#
I was sort of thinking is what I was thinking about that is that one, I sort of agree with
#
the importance of friends.
#
So I have realized late in life that one has to be intentional, like I've lost touch with
#
so many people, same laziness, who's going to make the effort, you know, he remembers
#
So, but now I try to make more of an effort to stay in touch with friends and all of that.
#
But I am wondering about the role of intentionality in this.
#
Like even in whatever little career I had, you know, I was never a person who wanted
#
to go out networking that meet people and hand out a visiting card in the age where
#
visiting cards existed and do all of that.
#
That just wasn't for me.
#
I was like, if I like talking to you, I'll talk to you.
#
Otherwise, you know, I'm not going to make the effort.
#
But how important is intentionality to this?
#
Because it's one thing to say, these are the friends who help me and these are the people
#
So, you know, it's one thing to come at it post facto and it's another to say that I
#
need to cultivate friends.
#
I need to stay in touch with my five friends.
#
I need to stay in touch with, you know, I need to make business contacts because I don't
#
know when it will come in handy.
#
And that second attitude is very difficult for me, though in the context of friends,
#
But in the context of business, my mind just doesn't think like that.
#
So how, how much is that intentionality important?
#
So I struggled with the same because I came from a middle class Pune family and which,
#
which you know, even your skills that you have, you're not supposed to display it.
#
Let your work speak for itself.
#
It's not important to market yourself.
#
This is where I come from.
#
So even I thought intentionally to make friends with someone, it means you're taking out work
#
This is not the right lens you should go and I continued with this thought for a long
#
So whatever four or five friends I had, they were natural friends and it automatically
#
happened that I invested in them.
#
There was no intentionality.
#
But then I met a very interesting guy who's a very close friend of mine whose name is
#
Sunandan Lele and he's somebody lovely guy, you know, one of the most eminent cricket
#
journalist that has, you know, has been in our part of the world.
#
Most importantly, he's somebody who is what I call Jag Mitra.
#
He has close to 5,000 friends across the world.
#
There is no cricketer who's not his best friend.
#
And I used to go on tours.
#
I started touring since 2002, 2003 up until Tendulkar retired actively 2013 and then three
#
four years and then I stopped touring.
#
And I was like amazed by this guy that he intentionally, but see, he loves people.
#
So he doesn't have to do it.
#
But he told me one thing, he said, Vikram, when are we happy?
#
When somebody acknowledges us, there is a deep engagement, someone says good things to me.
#
Positive thoughts, engagement, relationships, acknowledgement, meaning of life.
#
On these five pillars, the production of happiness and dopamine is dependent.
#
So if you like these things, it means others like it too.
#
So if you are giving happiness to someone, then why do you have intention and guilt in it?
#
If randomly you have to go to Roshan and say Roshan, I think what you did was nice, even
#
if it is false, but if it makes somebody happy, this is the greatest charity you can do.
#
That's the perspective he got in me.
#
And he realized that, and I realized that, you know, spending time with him, he would
#
The first tour I did with him in South Africa, the driver who came to pick us up at Johannesburg
#
airport 20 years later, he's the same guy who comes and picks him up.
#
Because from Tulsi Bagh, Pune, he took a small purse for his wife, Sunandan.
#
What will happen in it?
#
He says that human relationship is the only reason we should exist on that planet, on
#
And therefore, whether it is Tendulkar Kohli, if at all Virat Kohli talks to anybody in
#
the journalism fraternity, it's Sunandan Lele.
#
Because Sunandan Lele believes that a gift is a thought transfer that happens from one
#
It is not that I came to you with a bottle of wine, if you have not thought about it
#
and you have not brought the correct gift for it, then your gift has no value.
#
These are the values that he taught me and I said, what a great perspective, he's saying
#
my job is to make people happy.
#
You knew me all these years, you didn't learn from me.
#
Because you said it, now you know why.
#
And everything you've told Roshan about him is false, just to make him happy.
#
You have told me so many things, why should I be happy?
#
So the positive things out of this is that Sunandan calls me from London once and says
#
that Vikram, the value of the gift is not important.
#
I said, this small purse I gave to the media manager at Wimbledon, I'm just watching Roger
#
Federer live at Centre Court.
#
So what I learned from him is that this guilt of making other people happy and feel important,
#
why am I living with this?
#
On the contrary, I should develop this skill, whether it is helpful in business or whether
#
it's helpful in life, it does not matter.
#
But do it for its own sake.
#
Do it for its own sake, because its life is, I mean, charity, today we are giving millions
#
of dollars for people's upliftment.
#
Just be nice to them, just do a little bit of an act which makes them happy.
#
And that changed my perspective and I realized that I don't do one-tenth of what he does.
#
Roshan knows that I don't keep in touch generally because again, laziness and forgetfulness
#
But the value of that, I understood thanks to Sunandan Lele.
#
And even today, if you go to any part of the world, whether it is the West Indies, whether
#
it is Australia, the only person who's the best friend of John Bradman is Sunandan Lele.
#
John Bradman does not associate with anybody because of the baggage of being Donald Bradman's
#
But every tour, he will come and meet Sunandan at Melbourne or Sydney or whatever and say
#
that, Mr. Lele, you are the man of this world.
#
And that I used to see and said, wow, man, wow.
#
Even Tendulkar today would call Sunandan and say that I am doing this.
#
Do you think this is right?
#
He has most advices because the trust amount of charity work that I did with Sunandan because
#
he said that, boss, this is your duty to help others because you are one of the 0.1 percent
#
of the humanity who's talking about cricket and you are getting money to play a joke.
#
So that when I saw and then I realized that, yes, boss, it's about relationships and you
#
On the contrary, it should be part of your checklist on a daily basis.
#
That's where the intentionality and that guilt that I am meant by this, all those issues
#
And honestly, I genuinely believe in intentionality.
#
I think it's been the defining part of what I have been on my life because these guys
#
know that I am number one, a problem solver.
#
So if you give it to me, I will solve it.
#
I'll try my best to solve it if I can.
#
And I try to solve it at this size, my parents, that I'm not doing it with my couple fitting
#
that is not at all important.
#
So I think that is something which has worked for me.
#
I remember when I'd gone to the first Thinkfest or whatever, after two days of great conversation
#
or whatever, we had only met and I said that there should be a DoFest after this.
#
Because everyone does think, they talk a lot, their dreams are discussed a lot.
#
But I am saying that finally implementing it, because I somehow find that this ability
#
or just this bias to action to do things, to make this recording happen, to push for
#
this conversation, it makes all of us richer.
#
And so I'm getting to know parts of Sathe Rai, I don't know, I'm like, wow, I didn't
#
know this, I didn't know about your chess, you know, so these are these are discoveries
#
I'm sorry, I'm going back to something which I did very recently.
#
But I'm not a professional actor.
#
I've been more, I used to act and then suddenly because I started writing and directing, I
#
in every play I used to do, I would do a little walk on because it was fun and people used
#
to enjoy it and they knew me as a face on television, so it used to add some value.
#
But I genuinely wasn't acting to a thing.
#
I finished Aladdin in 2018, I did that also at that point because a bunch of my friends
#
What are you scared of?
#
And I knew that I was a little scared of dancing on stage, singing I'm not scared of acting
#
But again, I was doing it for a...
#
I got tons of offers for acting after that, and every time I would I would do a couple
#
Tess Joseph is a very dear friend of mine, wonderful casting director and she somehow
#
This is a big belief in me as an actor.
#
And she keeps calling me for wonderful films.
#
I, on two occasions, even got the roles,
#
and then the dates didn't match.
#
When suddenly this play happened to me in September
#
and whatever, you know, and out of the blue,
#
Dilip Shankar, who was casting,
#
who I was asking for help in my film in 2011,
#
suddenly reaches out and says,
#
listen, I've got a reverse thing for you,
#
which is, will you read for Lalit,
#
and Lalit Verma in Monsoon Wedding.
#
And I had remembered the film and I said,
#
man, for me, the first thing was Naseer Sahib's role.
#
So, you know, that thing that you say,
#
a thick and thin desire.
#
So, suddenly this thing,
#
oh my God, I'll get to do that role.
#
I worked my butt off, did the audition,
#
For one week, I was like, oh my God,
#
the one song I heard was very classical.
#
I said, I won't be able to write a note.
#
I actually thought of starting at that time saying,
#
I don't know if I'll be able to sing this or not.
#
You know, it's a scale or not.
#
I said, it will come, man.
#
You know, three months,
#
we did 12 shows in Doha.
#
There was a very good audience.
#
Some people globally saw it, whatever.
#
The play will travel internationally.
#
But what I learned from the people around me,
#
you know, and not, see, I could also go there,
#
Amit, every morning, do my lines,
#
sit in a corner, have my assistant with me,
#
give me my cup of coffee, go into my room.
#
There was this girl, Sharwari Deshpande,
#
who was acting opposite me, brilliant actress.
#
And I just said, I said, you know,
#
you're present in every scene.
#
I'm not, my mind is racing on a hundred things.
#
She told me, you know, I studied this in my master's in theater.
#
Now I'm reading something on perspectives in theater.
#
I'm reading something on breathing.
#
It's giving me something.
#
I have a 30-year-old music director
#
who I think is a genius.
#
Emily Whitaker, 30 years old,
#
standing there and just playing the music.
#
And we had one song change a day before the play.
#
Day before the play because some rights issues happened.
#
And this girl is sitting there
#
figuring out Dama Dama Mast Kalandar
#
with the entire orchestra in two hours.
#
And then you sit and say,
#
but where do you do this or where does,
#
but agar ek intention hota hai kaam karne ka.
#
Doosra intention hota hai logon mein invest karne ka.
#
People don't invest in people that often.
#
I feel that if you invest in people,
#
I will chase him down and follow,
#
and he's in Pune and he's there and whatever,
#
and I know, because I understand the kind of person.
#
I also, like, for example,
#
I realize that you have a small set of people
#
who you like to meet or whatever, et cetera.
#
But I'll be, do your message, yeh karte hain, chalo aisa.
#
Because logon mein invest karne se zyada
#
bada investment duniya ka nahi ursata.
#
Jo tubhe, and I'm telling you,
#
everything you were telling about Sunder Lele,
#
mujhe lag raha tha ki yaar,
#
pe kuch gift wali baat mein,
#
and I, in fact, sometimes have thought of this,
#
ke aar, kuch knick-knack saath mein rakhne chahiye,
#
apni kitab ki copy thoda sa,
#
wo ho jata hai, egoistic main lagta hai.
#
Isliye maine gaya, nahi wo badh kar dete hai.
#
But just doing that, paying that compliment,
#
remembering the person,
#
humare hotel ke reception mein doha mein jo doh log the,
#
I just went the first day, I said,
#
why don't you come and see our play?
#
Oh, abhi bhi I would like to come,
#
but what about the gate, and whatever you said.
#
We said, yeah, there are always some seats,
#
aaja na, we'll get it organized.
#
So the guy came, and he waited after the play.
#
And I said, mujhe toh usme,
#
like I had tears in my eyes,
#
because when I came out, this boy,
#
the way he hugged us, everyone,
#
oh my God, you're all our stars,
#
I think, no, you are, you know.
#
Phir usne apni kahaani batayi,
#
Ab ek wo dost ban gaya hai doha mein,
#
jo mujhe almond milk subhe provide kar deta tha,
#
because main ek din kya raha hai gaya.
#
Sunandan used to always, from the first tour,
#
said that, Vikram, you have to understand,
#
your Indian team is young boys from all over the country.
#
And the one thing that they miss on a tour is food.
#
And Sunandan is a good cook.
#
You will not believe I have had hundreds of times
#
when Dhoni and Irfan and Sachin
#
and all these guys coming to our room,
#
they're sitting on the ground,
#
Lele is cooking veg biryani and giving it to them.
#
And Dhoni is taking the utensils and washing it.
#
Lele sahab, har tour mein yeh biryani zaroor banana hai.
#
And it's such an important thing.
#
You're playing in South Africa two, two months.
#
You don't get the food that you want.
#
They're coming from Jharkhand.
#
They're coming from various parts of the country.
#
Sunandan is a regular cook.
#
He said, pehle bachon khana khilao, fir saw banenge.
#
So these are small things, right?
#
And it just changed the game.
#
One of the early things in events that somebody told me,
#
I remember, actually, this was a,
#
you had done a show with them also, I remember.
#
So with Kodak, this guy, Richard Fleming used to be there.
#
And he had turned in, so he used to go on,
#
when we used to go and recce a venue,
#
he used to first go and look at the bedroom.
#
Roon ka bistar kya hai.
#
Then he would go and say,
#
what food will you serve them?
#
Don't serve me a special meal.
#
What's your regular meal?
#
And if he could, he would try and go
#
without actually telling them he's coming.
#
So he said, these are the two things that matter
#
when you're out of your house.
#
Ultimately, kis bistar mein sote ho, kya khaate ho.
#
He says, event toh 2 gante ka hota hai.
#
Chaar gante ka hota hai.
#
Usme toh aap spectacle maana denge.
#
20 dancing people will come,
#
there'll be lights, there'll be sound,
#
there'll be motivational speaker.
#
Ultimately, that guy will go to that bed to sleep.
#
And that meal that he will eat.
#
And I have seen that change relationships.
#
And I'm like, when Amit is there,
#
Amit is with the people till 4 a.m.
#
Because he's with them.
#
Drinking, eating, laughing,
#
knowing their families, knowing them by first names.
#
Main wo hi kya tha jaata ho hameesha.
#
That investment that you can make in people.
#
And when people used to ask me saying,
#
how do you become a good anchor or a good whatever,
#
I used to say, boss ek line,
#
be interested or be interesting.
#
aap thoda apne baarein wo shosha kar sakte hain.
#
But if you are interested in the other person,
#
And you know, I know Sulandana a little bit.
#
I've, you know, travelled with him
#
when I was sort of touring and in the cricket scene.
#
The Pakistan tour especially.
#
The Pakistan tour especially.
#
And I remember him as this lovely, warm person.
#
He's a warm, gentle person.
#
So everything that he tells you
#
about the importance of meeting people,
#
is I would imagine it comes naturally to him.
#
And it is not as if, you know,
#
agar wo intentionality dala bhi hai,
#
to post-facto dala hai.
#
To me it seems like that's the kind of person he is.
#
And I'm wondering what is the feedback loop
#
Because if you are, for example,
#
intentional about something and you do it all the time,
#
at some point it becomes a part of you, right?
#
So, you know, so Roshan, when you talk about,
#
for example, investing in people,
#
is it that you've always been a warm person
#
who's looking out for others?
#
Or is it that at some point you realise
#
that this is a good thing to do?
#
It works for me, it works for them,
#
I'm going to do more of this.
#
And then it becomes natural to you.
#
Can I answer this for Roshan?
#
He knows what to do with that.
#
I think he's going to say something like,
#
mai jab pehle mila tha, bahut kharusa.
#
I think Roshan is hugely structured.
#
So there are two aspects to it.
#
He's a warm person and therefore he's interested in people.
#
He's inclined to do this.
#
But the moment he realises the value of it,
#
Because he is an entrepreneur at heart
#
with a creative, three organs, creative,
#
two organs in other, this thing,
#
one organ continuously looking of return on investment.
#
So he's actually left, right, middle brain sub-combination.
#
How many organs are there?
#
I'm trying to identify.
#
That's why it's called organised.
#
So basically, jab usne dekha ki yeh...
#
See, every time you have to understand,
#
and this is Roshan's plus and this is minus,
#
is because the moment you become an entrepreneur,
#
and I've seen this in many YPO events
#
that I perform at where there are millionaires
#
see, your lens becomes entrepreneurial.
#
And that sometimes is good,
#
that sometimes is bad because you are looking
#
at return on investment on everything.
#
And you have to be wired like that
#
to become a good entrepreneur.
#
So the moment the entrepreneur realises
#
that this is a place of value,
#
his checklist will have that.
#
And which is a good thing.
#
So it is now second nature to invest in people.
#
Now it starts with warmth,
#
but anything that you want to excel in has to be routinised.
#
And that's what, you know,
#
Atomic Habits is all about, for that matter.
#
That is what sport teaches you.
#
It's about doing the same things again and again.
#
And that's why if you see Dhoni coming and taking strike,
#
he will, you know, wipe his brow first,
#
then he'll do this and that.
#
Because to come to a point of extreme concentration
#
a routine is what takes you to that point.
#
So many people, you know, ask me,
#
why do you, when you're imitating Sachin Tendulkar,
#
why are you doing that?
#
I have had a conversation with Sachin.
#
I said that if I don't make my cup of tea in the morning,
#
till the point of time I'm taking strike,
#
everything is the same because that brings me
#
to that state of consciousness
#
where I'm facing somebody at 140
#
and trying to see whether the ball is reversing
#
or going the other way.
#
So that routine is what defines excellence.
#
And I think Roshan, with Roshan, I've seen that,
#
that when he knows that,
#
boss, yeh dhande mein bhi kaam aane wala hai,
#
personal relationship mein bhi aane wala hai,
#
mai routinise kar leta hun.
#
That's why it's become second nature to him.
#
With Sunandan also, I have seen that.
#
He will not go to anybody's house
#
without taking that small thing.
#
And if you've said in one of the conversation,
#
kiyaar mereko na wo saffron wali biryani hai,
#
bas uske database mein aa gaya.
#
toh Amit tera saffron mein leke aaya ho.
#
Now the thing is that's coming naturally to him now,
#
but he realises the significance
#
of making other people happy.
#
No, also I'll add to that a little or whatever, etc.
#
So this being warm, etc. was a very Lucknow thing.
#
My mother had this lie which used to always go,
#
she used to call her Kalyadi Devi,
#
because poori mahalega khayal rakhna.
#
Right, from the maid to that person,
#
the ironing woman, the sweeper,
#
iska ye problem hai uska wo.
#
Aaj bhi meri maa jo hai,
#
now we have, after years, we have a live-in,
#
you know, a help with a husband
#
who pita hai, wo achha hai dilka,
#
Whatever, that's the thing.
#
Par uske jo do bache hain,
#
like they are my mother's project right now.
#
Unki kitabo ko cover karna,
#
usf karna, unka project hai.
#
Ab unko bacho ne kaha ke,
#
they came home and they said,
#
Nani, aap humare science fair mein chali hai.
#
You know, my father who doesn't step out,
#
And I said that, look at what it does,
#
it gives them a reason to be.
#
Because we all need, finally, that reason to be.
#
and main batara ho mujhe me saad ye,
#
just to his Saffron Biryani story, I'll tell you.
#
I love, I'm curious, I love discovering things.
#
One day I discovered a place where somebody told me,
#
there's a place called Love Fools
#
that does this incredible sit-down dinners in Bandra.
#
Mai pehli baar khud gaya, test karne ke liye,
#
because I won't introduce my friends
#
Toh you know, properly they viewed lovely meal
#
and whatever, love date and stuff.
#
Talked to Sarita Pereira, who was the chef,
#
Now nobody, people just appreciate the food.
#
I sat in with her for half an hour and I asked her,
#
I was in Spain, I learned here, I did this, da da da da.
#
Mai Turkey mein jaara hoon through the market,
#
and suddenly mujhe yaad aata hai
#
that she had mentioned to me,
#
kiyaar, many of the spices I used to use in my food,
#
And I just messaged her, saying,
#
Sarita, I'm in Turkey, I'm in the spices market,
#
Anything I can get for you.
#
When I was in Doha, the message I sent,
#
I just sent you that, nothing.
#
I just suddenly said, Amit, are you fond of football?
#
Whatever, so it's that thing.
#
Koi usmein, there's no,
#
yeh isme koi profit ki baat nahi thi.
#
She said, Urf Babir naam ka ek wo milta hai,
#
Pepper, wo mujhe nahi milta hai.
#
Mai gaya, maine saab ek dibba liya,
#
Urf Babir ka milta hai.
#
Love Fools is now one of the best known
#
private dining experiences in Bombay.
#
There are days you can't get a seat or whatever.
#
I can get anything, anytime.
#
But because, and now, but it's not just that.
#
I will continue the relationship.
#
Sarita will call me, I'm thinking of opening a speakeasy on top.
#
We'll come in, come and do something.
#
Of course, we'll come and do something.
#
You know, this, you have to participate without this thing
#
of, mera isme kya paplu fit hoga?
#
One, which is a big problem.
#
And then mujhe yeh lagta hai ki yeh problem nahi hai.
#
Aur yeh reconcile karna hai.
#
Paplu fit karna yeh problem nahi hai.
#
Mujhe se, meri se bohot.
#
Aur yeh main struggle karna hu,
#
Kyuki maine 99% cheeze nahi kiye hai,
#
Kyuki meri lens mein, Pune se lens hai,
#
Ki kisi se kaam mangna galat baat hai.
#
Mere liye, main to yeh matam.
#
Abhi iss lens se agar aapki pehda ishi hui hai.
#
So then what happens is that,
#
Arey yaar, hum log poori duniya chali hai merchants ke karan.
#
Humne paplu fit fit karke hi Columbus waha paucha nahi.
#
To usko kaya ko jaane ka tha, udar pe.
#
But yeh humko okay karna hai ki,
#
As long as hum win-win dekh rahe hain,
#
Jaise bolte hai ki wo Sapolsky ke kitab mein ki,
#
Ki when two people win, the dopamine production is also high.
#
So iska matlab hai, kahin na kahin we have to accept that,
#
Trade mein agar hum dosti banaate hai, it's fine.
#
Isme koi buri baate hai, dosti bana rahe ho na boss.
#
Dushman toh nahi bana rahe ho.
#
So I think paplu fit karna hai has to be acceptable now,
#
In order to create a...
#
I think what Roshan means,
#
And I really agree with that and I think there is something to that,
#
Is that at one level you can be instrumental,
#
And you can say that I will buy this spice,
#
So I can get a reservation when I want.
#
At one level you can think like that.
#
But if you make it a part of,
#
You know the rules by which you live your life,
#
A normative part of you,
#
That whenever I can, I will give a friend what she wants.
#
And I think that that leads to,
#
Paplu's fitting in unusual ways which you could not have imagined.
#
But I am reconciling, I want to come to a point where it's okay,
#
To say that boss agar main isko saffron deta ho,
#
But it is not you, because I mean it is not me.
#
And don't become that, I will tell you one more thing.
#
I am not becoming that, I will never become that.
#
But that's what I am saying, don't get...
#
But it's okay if you do it.
#
This is your YPO, EO corruption, which I am very worried about.
#
See, YPO and EO events that happen in India,
#
You have to be a 100 crore plus or whatever, etc.
#
To be part of one of these organizations.
#
Vikram has shown me a beautiful story.
#
Actually, I think you should tell me about the negotiation story first.
#
Then I will build on that.
#
At least you'll never understand this.
#
So I was being called by these YPO, whatever that agency,
#
And every now and then,
#
That you give a discount, you know, Bombay YPO,
#
They are the trillionaire economy.
#
They are giving you an opportunity to perform in front of...
#
I said, boss, I am a middle-class Maharashtan.
#
I don't need opportunity.
#
I cannot do and be happy.
#
If you want a discount, I will give you the discount.
#
No matter what happens, no problem.
#
No, no, it's not that I don't want to do that event.
#
And no corporate negotiates that much.
#
They will tell you, they want you,
#
They will give you the money and blah, blah, blah.
#
But they were at it, at it, at it, at it.
#
Finally, I told a lady there,
#
I said that I want to do this event free of cost.
#
No, no, sir, what are you...
#
Why are you saying that?
#
I said, I want to do it free of cost.
#
Only so that I can tell my grandmom
#
that I work for the trillionaires for free.
#
I did a favour on them.
#
That you will also be happy that there are so many big people.
#
And I told them, come on, you don't have money, so I'll do it.
#
Okay, you poor people, I'll do it for free.
#
So, no, no, no, sir, what are you saying, sir?
#
No, no, we will give you, whatever.
#
And the fee was agreed.
#
I did the show, Touchwood, it was super successful.
#
Everybody who was anybody and stuff like that
#
came and said, what a fabulous performance, blah, blah, blah.
#
And then I got drunk along with three or four people
#
who were probably one lakh crore each.
#
I can't name them, but...
#
But they were there, and then one of the guys who was the organiser,
#
I had three or four whiskeys.
#
I said, sir, why do you guys negotiate so much?
#
Like, why did you bother me so much?
#
So he said, son, should I tell you something?
#
So I said, yes, tell me.
#
So I said, I don't understand, what is victory?
#
He said, why are these people so big here?
#
They win in every negotiation.
#
Whether the negotiation is yours or that of a million crores.
#
And it dawned to me that at one level, maybe he is right in the way.
#
But for me, who comes from an art, culture, giving, charity,
#
Gokhale, Agarkar, that kind of a background,
#
I'm thinking, what kind of a life is this?
#
The one who wants to win in relationships,
#
wants to win in negotiation with the artist.
#
But then I realised what an, I mean, I'm not saying all entrepreneurs,
#
and it affected me for seven days.
#
I said, he wanted to win with me.
#
But then he explained to me, and then it explains the psychology
#
that when you're negotiating two rupees with Rikshawala,
#
the bhaji worker works so hard, give him 10 rupees extra, what difference does it make?
#
But that gets ingrained, which is good for entrepreneurship,
#
but when it goes into normal human relations, it becomes so bad.
#
And still, from that part, then that answered that thing,
#
that why don't you go on holiday with 200 crores?
#
It's because the psychology is not about making money to enjoy.
#
It's about making money because I want to show the other guy that I won.
#
No, no, and see, which is what I'm saying, that the curse that I'm saying that he...
#
And thankfully, he's not affected by it.
#
He thinks he has a term for it, but it is the thing of, you know,
#
to build contacts because it will get you eggs, blah, blah, blah.
#
It's not him. And I'll tell you, and this thing, no, I'll tell you,
#
this thing about Papplu fit.
#
I used to do an interview based show with film stars at one point in time.
#
And one day we were doing an interview.
#
And in that interview, another film star came,
#
looked at this big vehicle, you know, Land Cruiser, whatever,
#
in those days, early, I'm talking late nineties.
#
And the other actor looked at this guy and said,
#
yeah, I love this vehicle you've got and whatever.
#
How did you get it? He said, don't worry, I've got a great guy.
#
And I was watching this, I said, yeah,
#
you know, between the two actors.
#
And he said, I'm giving you this guy's number.
#
You call him after half an hour.
#
The other actor went off.
#
This actor who owned the vehicle called that guy and said,
#
listen, I'm sending you so and so.
#
You know, in front of me, all that veneer is gone, friendship,
#
this bond is a bond of love.
#
And I said, OK, but I will never do that.
#
And I cannot do that because I don't want to be remembered like that.
#
I do not want to be known that I made a percentage in this deal.
#
I'll tell you what the beauty is.
#
And it is very difficult for people to understand.
#
I have at least three people who give me equity in their company
#
without me putting a rupee, without me asking once, because they said,
#
we're so, we don't understand how to pay you back.
#
You advise us, you read my contract, you give us a business,
#
you do it, you don't ask for anything.
#
So please, we're giving you this five percent in the company.
#
Five percent in a company which is going to grow.
#
And I know it will grow into something big.
#
And I was like, listen, I don't need this.
#
No, no, no, but if you don't need it, give it to me.
#
But two and a half percent, 60 and two and a half percent to me, sir.
#
Look, there is no such problem after the outcome.
#
We're happy about that.
#
That's why I didn't make friends with you.
#
But I'm saying the same thing.
#
But that is the, to me, that is the true joy.
#
And it's the same thing.
#
Now, to bring what he said, also think that, oh, you know,
#
I look for routine and I put it into my structure.
#
I actually just I'm saying I'm I'm an anomaly in these terms.
#
I discovered that India doesn't have a musical company culture.
#
So in America, there is a company theater thing where there'll be a company
#
and the company will be paid for the rehearsing every day,
#
which is why they can put up a musical every year.
#
In India, we recruit what we call triple threats.
#
Triple threats are you can act, sing and dance.
#
So that's a triple threat as a performer. Right.
#
And a triple threat performer is very rare to find in Disney in the West.
#
How do you get all these big actors?
#
Because they start from summer camps.
#
Now, for me, there's a problem to solve.
#
If you want, there are eight big musicals happening in India.
#
Believe you me, six of them are going to be disasters
#
because you are trying to make a Bollywood film musical.
#
We do this. But, you know, are you training the actors?
#
Are you training that base talent?
#
You will get by because you will pre-record the songs and therefore they'll lip sync.
#
Then it's not a true musical.
#
Right. You will do it because you got pre-recorded music and not live musicians.
#
Then it is not a musical.
#
So to preserve that form, you need to develop this.
#
Now I found a creative problem to solve.
#
How do you set up a musical theater company?
#
So I went to my community and said, guys, I think we do workshops and this, this and this.
#
Now, I will solve that.
#
This is saying trying to find a problem,
#
trying to find a business solution for it and see if it is implemented.
#
If it happens only once, it was a creative act of passion.
#
If it finds repeat business, it's a business, right?
#
If it can be repeated, that's one part.
#
But jumping in and doing crazy things like going and doing this play
#
or suddenly going and doing a writing workshop.
#
I mean, when I did the writing workshop with you, it was what?
#
Let's do it once and see what happens.
#
I attended Satyanshu's lectures on filmmaking because I really thought his...
#
And today, Satyanshu is a friend.
#
We are working on something together.
#
That was not the intention from day one.
#
The intention was to learn.
#
The intention was to do something crazy and new.
#
Sathe does the same, but he does it at a pace of doing that
#
now comedy is happening, it is happening, it is happening, it is happening.
#
But it reached a point where I'm telling you, he got it right. I told him this.
#
When he got pissed off because everybody would call him a comic.
#
But his logic was, boss, that's a lot of intelligence.
#
Some of his observations in shows, I said, my God, that's a life truth.
#
Zakir today with the dhanshu, everybody is going nuts.
#
Yeah, it's life truths, which is just captured in a format.
#
So Sathe said, no, to prove that I have much more,
#
I must write a book also, I must do this.
#
I have to tick off all the intellectual hallmarks.
#
I have written a book, I am a motivational speaker.
#
He does all of those things because he has the ability to.
#
But he is very reticent about it.
#
In 20 years, in 10 years, one googly will kill.
#
No, but that is the truth.
#
Because the person who was not intellectual in his system
#
and did not do the engineering and did not do the IIT
#
and did not do the study abroad kind of a thing.
#
There has been, again, from the background, you know,
#
I could have been a classical singer.
#
I could have been a good cricketer.
#
So I thought that I have a brain.
#
So to satisfy my inner self, I have to become an intellectual.
#
I don't know if it will happen.
#
That's why I am a stand-up comedian.
#
We didn't know anything about that.
#
And coming back to the chronology, I'll come to the point
#
where somebody told me that this is stand-up comedy.
#
There was no stand-up comedy 2002.
#
If you remember, Amit, at that point of 98 to 2002,
#
there was Cyrus Brocha, because we recruited the VJs
#
Shekhar Suman moves Shekhar.
#
That was still later, right?
#
No, no, that was around that time.
#
That was around that time.
#
So English stand-up comedy was not there at that time.
#
But the one great value that MTV added,
#
and I think that changed my life, and many people don't know,
#
and probably Roshan would know a little bit,
#
that I was actually a socially anxious person.
#
I had major social anxiety.
#
you're a comedian, how can this happen?
#
People don't realise that you might be a cricketer
#
who scores in front of 80,000 people.
#
But in a small social setup, you can be extremely anxious
#
because you can't make personal one-on-one conversations
#
And it was because of certain incidents of rejection
#
that happened to you in school, college.
#
Again, I don't remember when and how,
#
but it was there, for sure.
#
And that kind of changed in MTV.
#
Because MTV was an environment where I had left Pune
#
and I had come to this place where...
#
And that was the first phase of MTV, right?
#
Everybody suddenly had become creative.
#
Everybody was acknowledging that bad jokes are good.
#
And that bad jokes culture kind of opened my mind and said,
#
that bad jokes are appreciated here.
#
And as Woody Allen would say that,
#
there are 100 bad jokes and there is one good joke,
#
and that one good joke goes into the library
#
to make a stand-up comedy act six months later.
#
So it's a compilation of 100 good jokes
#
which come after 10,000 bad jokes.
#
But that bad joke culture in MTV kind of opened my mind
#
and I got appreciated for doing these one-liners
#
Then one fine evening, a common friend, Jiggy George,
#
saw me imitating Sachin Tendulkar.
#
And he said, what are you doing here?
#
And then there was a VJ hunt next week.
#
And Brocha called me on stage
#
and I did a five-minute act.
#
And somebody told me, this is a stand-up comedy.
#
And I said, what is this?
#
Because there was no Google and whatever.
#
The only people we idolized-
#
This would have been 98, if I remember.
#
So it so happened that then I found out,
#
Jerry Seinfeld, I think Seinfeld last season
#
was happening at that point of time.
#
Somebody sent me some clips.
#
So I started watching that.
#
And that's when I realized that there is some game
#
in these imitations that I'm doing.
#
And this Sachin imitation just resonated.
#
And Sharjah, it just happened, right?
#
So that Tony Gregg, Sachin Tendulkar imitation,
#
which I used to do post the 1998 Sharjah tour,
#
everybody started liking it.
#
And I was like, yeah, that was the seed when,
#
I realized that something can be done about it.
#
But the MTV environment and all allowed me
#
to do these experiments on stage.
#
And you know that imitation, right?
#
My theory at that time was Sharad Pawar
#
had paid off Tony Gregg and told him,
#
the more you praise Tendulkar, I'll increase your salary.
#
It was his economic model.
#
So Tony Gregg went completely mad.
#
Well, it's all happening here.
#
Sachin Tendulkar's on fire.
#
Smash them all over the place.
#
What a play to the ears.
#
Gollum, now that's a six.
#
All those people are watching the telecast live on.
#
Dude, Sean will be dancing in their lounges
#
because Tendulkar's on fire.
#
Smash your strides all over the place.
#
What a wonderful, wonderful play.
#
Cut to the presentation.
#
Sachin Tendulkar, the play comfort level
#
is of what important these one day matches.
#
I think you played some quality cricket out there.
#
Yeah, I thought most definitely,
#
I thought the cricket was great.
#
At the end of the day, what matters is that
#
we play well as a team.
#
And I thought we played better cricket than them.
#
In one match, he said, definitely the wicket was great.
#
Second match, he said, most definitely the wicket was great.
#
Third match, he said, almost definitely the wicket was great.
#
And this imitation just,
#
and there was no virality at that time,
#
but word of mouth was there.
#
So we were organizing this.
#
But before that, before that.
#
So this happened, and I started getting on stage
#
on many of the MTV shows.
#
And we used to have this get together
#
where Sunil Lullahu, the MD at that point of time,
#
saw me perform on stage
#
doing this five, 10 minute act
#
as to imitate around eight to 10 cricketers.
#
And then Ashish, my friend, said that,
#
there is a diamond merchant.
#
There was no stand up comedy, right?
#
So you were, what were you called?
#
And you guys also did that for around eight, seven, eight years.
#
So our name for our profession was filler.
#
So will you become a filler?
#
Wherever you fill it, we will fill it.
#
It was the first show, so we weren't getting paid.
#
Still, he said, we will pay a little.
#
So I go to this Pancharatna building in South Mumbai,
#
where the diamond, this thing is there.
#
And I enter this diamond merchant is sitting
#
and there's three levels of security.
#
Filler, I said, if you called me for filler,
#
I will fill it, what else can I say?
#
So I did this imitation.
#
And that's when I got my first show.
#
He said, only a week later, I realized that this was a big show
#
of the diamond industry, along with the Oppenheimers of South Africa.
#
And they were playing a cricket match.
#
And there was Daler Mehendi and I was a filler.
#
That day, I realized that, boss, if 200 diamond merchants
#
are laughing for 10 to 12 minutes as a filler,
#
there is something there.
#
And in that MTV time, in that marketing, wherever I got this opportunity,
#
I played Sidhu along with Cyrus Savkar
#
in that show called MTV Fully Faltu, which did you write that show?
#
I don't think I wrote that because I don't remember it,
#
but my memory is a bit like yours.
#
So I think I think Brithinjay wrote that before that.
#
So you did a couple of shows.
#
And then that's when I realized that, boss, there is something here.
#
Something is going right here.
#
And then the big break happened.
#
And that was the time I had left MTV and joined the movie industry.
#
The promoters of Sony had started a company.
#
And again, see, my thing was Metallite Productions.
#
So we were, as marketing guys, we were the first to enter the television industry.
#
And I said, before I experiment with these shows and all,
#
let me do Bollywood ones.
#
And that was the time promoters of Sony started a film company.
#
And this one and a half years were great lessons in human observations.
#
I learned about the entertainment industry and I'll share some with you.
#
I did marketing for three films.
#
Nagesh Kuknoor's second film after Hyderabad Blues, which was called Teen Diwaare.
#
There was Madhur Bhandar's second film after Chandni Baar called Satta with Raveena Tandon.
#
And there was a film called Dil Vil Pyar Vyaar,
#
which was Anant Mahadevan's debut film.
#
This is when I entered the movie industry, before we come to that legendary moment
#
that I had with Roshan Abbas, which kind of propelled the stand-up career.
#
I spent one and a half years and I realized that this is a fascinating place
#
just for people who like to observe other people.
#
And here is where this, you know, small town
#
interfacing with the established community is what I saw in real time.
#
And it was great, right? At that point of time, there was no corporatization.
#
I was the first marketing guy in an unorganized sector.
#
So the old school script writers would come and, you know,
#
show you scripts and stuff like that.
#
You make it, sir. And there was this funny incident that happened.
#
Script writer in Varsova came and said, you are a new guy.
#
I will make you listen to such scripts, sir. You will go crazy.
#
Listen to this. Two hours and we were still at the first shot.
#
When a person comes in, what happens next?
#
The camera catches the person.
#
This went for one hour. We were still in the first scene.
#
Then I said, sir, I have to go out a little.
#
This is what people like you will not understand.
#
So I said, what should I do now? You come later.
#
Sir, I will tell you one thing.
#
Once you get this shot, you will have to take it off.
#
I was like, what a lie.
#
Oh, man. I said, what a world this is. Unbelievable.
#
I don't know. It never happened.
#
So here I got two observations.
#
I got to learn very closely watching a lot of actors.
#
And I'm sure Roshan relates to these observations
#
because I realized that there is an amazing thing
#
that is happening between the established community,
#
which is people who don't consider this as a big thing
#
because they are born in families who have all the resources.
#
And then they are they have set the benchmark of coolness.
#
Right. So they will talk Americanism.
#
This is the kind of cinema we watch here.
#
Hey, Bollywood, we have to take pictures, but they will do all of this.
#
Now, this is a benchmark that is set.
#
And this is the value of cool that has been attached.
#
Now, the small time actors from smaller cities
#
come and interact with them with a lot of social anxiety.
#
And they realize that their work or their abilities
#
is not what is going to be judged.
#
How they behave in this milieu is what they are going to be judged on.
#
And this is where I see a lot of this sad thing happening,
#
where a Marathi actor has come from, say, Satara,
#
who's a good actor, comes and goes into a party
#
where those standard boys and girls are behaving in a certain way.
#
And the entire next three years, this guy is practicing to be the
#
that person so that he feels that they will now accept him
#
and give him that first role.
#
And that one and a half, two years is so traumatic
#
because I'm seeing the Marathi because I am now a guy
#
who's MBA educated, can speak English and I'm this.
#
So that my social acceptability is reasonable here.
#
And it is because I can speak good Marathi,
#
my acceptability with this guy is also good.
#
And I see this guy from somebody who's discussing Pula Deshpande,
#
Gadi Matgulkar, you know, Kumar Gandharva,
#
to suddenly meeting me in a party one year later.
#
Hey, babes, what's up, dude?
#
And I'm like, what has happened to this man?
#
And then I realized that this man is over from inside
#
because his entire focus has gone away
#
that how can this director, who lives in Yuhu, accept me?
#
And he goes inside that party, they are making fun of him.
#
And then I realized that if there was an organization
#
which just makes these two ends meet properly, talent will be discovered.
#
But trust me, nine out of ten talents that I met during that time
#
was struggling to just fit in because they wanted to say dude and babes
#
rather than practice their craft.
#
And unfortunately, that is the part I saw and I realized
#
that this, the Haryana factor that you are talking about,
#
that that time, 20 years back, I thought,
#
I wish they were stars in their own domain
#
and they didn't have to suffer this.
#
That was one thing I learned, which I saw very closely.
#
The second thing was the dynamics of actors coming late
#
or behaving in a particular manner.
#
And I used to say that, dude, what's the problem of coming on time?
#
And then there was this celebration culture
#
that sir, this actor takes at least six hours late.
#
And what is this? He is a big actor.
#
And this was getting celebrated.
#
And I said, what is the psychology of people celebrating bad behavior?
#
And then one actress, she started behaving very badly on the set.
#
So I went to her and I said that, ma'am, I mean, everybody is normal.
#
If you have any issues, just let me know.
#
And I was trying to be structured because that's the only thing
#
I knew I coming from a corporate background.
#
And if you were structured, you were considered uncool.
#
But I told her that, you know, this is what.
#
And then one day she got drunk and she called me to the set.
#
And then we went to the vanity van and she told me that,
#
hey, come here, I'll explain to you what industry is.
#
And I said, yes, ma'am, explain to me.
#
You read a little less on the set.
#
She said, if I behave well, you all will take me for granted.
#
So I make sure that every day of my film, first day, I break a glass.
#
I had to do something so that I start getting respect.
#
If I don't do that, then the spot boy won't give me tea.
#
When I do taandao on the first day, then I will get respect in the industry.
#
And I was like, what kind of behavior is this?
#
But then I realized that all this creative ecosystem here
#
was about getting attention to yourself.
#
And therefore it was important to behave badly.
#
And that became culture.
#
So if an actor came on time, he was considered an idiot.
#
So he came three hours late so that there was this dash and stuff like that.
#
And this human behavior was great to watch because this was exactly what is
#
the opposite of what is taught to you in management school that
#
systems and data and all of that.
#
And then I realized the creative industries about interplay of all these
#
emotions put together and to give structure to this emotional ecosystem
#
is going to be the biggest challenge for the future.
#
And that point of time, there was no corporatization.
#
So these were observations that kind of made me interested in this
#
and say, like, how do people behave?
#
And that point of time, the magic moment happened when I got a call from Mr.
#
Roshan Abbas and said that he didn't know me at that time.
#
He said, yeah, I've heard that to a filler,
#
if you do a filler, you can pull it for 12-15 minutes.
#
So I said, yeah, we'll do stuff like that.
#
And this is for the Seattle Cricket Awards.
#
Which is the biggest property.
#
And this is the property I had worked in professional management through
#
where, you know, how the rating systems is created for cricketers and stuff like that.
#
Now there were, Roshan said, there's no English stand up.
#
He doesn't know what I do.
#
So he says, you come to my house.
#
Okay, whatever you're going to do, you'll have to do it in front of me.
#
I said, okay, I'll dance at his house.
#
What's the big deal about this?
#
Same time, he said that after doing this at my house,
#
Harsh Goen, who is the chairman of Seattle,
#
his people will call you and you'll have to go there too.
#
So imagine a time where the stand up comedian first goes to the event agency.
#
Roshan Abbas is sitting there with his friend and says, do it.
#
Roshan has no idea about cricket, but Roshan knows that it is working.
#
So he says that I think this is fine, but obviously,
#
because imitations and all is something that he would know.
#
He said that tomorrow you have to go to Mr.
#
Harsh Goen with six people are sitting in a boardroom.
#
And I suddenly feel I am in MBA entrance exam going for my first job.
#
And they say that because nobody knows, right?
#
What is a stand up English comedian going to do?
#
Because what is the lineup for the Seattle Awards?
#
Akshay Kumar, Priyanka Chopra, Urmila Matonkar, Mahima Chaudhary
#
and to put an item in between.
#
This is 2001, I'm guessing.
#
And our lineup was Priyanka Chopra doing her first event.
#
There was Gohar, there was Mandira, there was Priyanka, there was Ramona.
#
I forget the main actor.
#
No, no, there was Akshay Kumar.
#
Urmila Matonkar was there.
#
But it was a big lineup.
#
So I go there, I do my 10 minutes.
#
I am still working in Metlite.
#
So I remember the day when this happened.
#
My boss was not letting me go fast.
#
So I said, no, I have to go to perform at the Seattle Awards.
#
I came to Taj Crystal, where the Seattle Awards were there.
#
And I was so badly dressed because I was in like corporate apna trouser.
#
And there only, I mean, I realized everybody's in jacket.
#
That's my first exposure to the fact that yes, stand-up comedian ko aisa.
#
Main ne sirf apna Jeffrey Boycott ka topi leke chala tha mai wab.
#
But thankfully Roshan said that, you know, we need a little bit of design in your act.
#
Tab se yeh log soch rahe the, inki soch thi.
#
So he got me one, kya ek aisa bar bana ke diya, jaha pe I could hang my caps.
#
So that every time I do an impersonation, I wear that cap.
#
And I met Ian Chappell there.
#
And that was my, you know, all these years of cricket ka jo bhadas tha.
#
I was very happy to meet Ian Chappell there.
#
And he said, you know, so I got myself introduced and said, I'm doing this act and stuff like
#
And I reached there and I find out that the India and the Australian team are going to
#
be in the audience, which I was not told.
#
I thought there would be ex-cricketers and stuff like that.
#
But these two and the God himself, I mean, people who we have idolized got exasperated
#
bowling to him and so on and so forth.
#
And they are all sitting there and I am jamure naach.
#
That 15 minutes changed my life.
#
Because when you see a Sunil Gavaskar, Bishan Bedi and Ricky Ponting laughing, and you've
#
been propelled into a world which was actually your world, right?
#
This is all the precursor to that world that you wanted to be part of, not only as a player,
#
but as somebody who loved the game so much.
#
And that 15 minutes and imitation of Gavaskar's walk.
#
And I came down, Bishan Singh Bedi hugged me.
#
And Chappell came and told me that, you know, next time in your act, I should be there and
#
stuff like that, I said, boss, yeh iske liye mera birth hua hai, yeh merko domain this
#
Na mujhe wo Akshay Kumar aur Amitabh Bachchan se hai, Amitabh Bachchan, obviously yeh sab
#
luckily I interacted with this world.
#
But for me, I was a failed sports person.
#
So I had to live the dream in another way.
#
And that kind of got me thinking.
#
And I think another one month I gave my resignation.
#
But the beauty of that, no YouTube generation, no Google, that actually clipped went viral
#
because they showed that show some 50 times on Sony.
#
And because of that, I started getting calls, Roshan got me a show with Castrol, if I'm
#
Sahara Golf and Castrol became your regulars in any show we used to do, we were very big
#
That was a little later.
#
But it just kept rolling.
#
So every six months, Sathe's rates used to double because he would have done so many
#
shows that his marketing bite would work.
#
Or he knows that by agencies have their own little layer.
#
Itna demand hai, itna demand hai.
#
Boom, boom, boom, boom.
#
Itse tab mai 10-12 minute mein tha.
#
Isko mujhe 40 minute leke jaana tha.
#
Aur abhi mere paas sirf cricket ka mal tha.
#
By this time, I had increased my reading.
#
I had started writing on observations, whether those were the standard observations.
#
I had started following what is the concept of the American beena.
#
Pula Deshpande, I mean, I believe that no comedian ever in the history of mankind can
#
touch him because there was no standard thing of premise and punchline.
#
This is a very bore concept, premise and punchline.
#
It is basically very populist way of getting a laughter.
#
Pula Deshpande would talk two hours on walking in Veli Parle and he would make you laugh.
#
It was that quality of humor.
#
But then I realized that boss, ye ho toh literary humor hai, tumhara uska understanding of life
#
and society should be so high that you pick so many nuances.
#
So then I followed the quintessential American model of that build the story and then the
#
Build story, get punchline.
#
I started doing that in cricket as well.
#
And while I was doing this writing and stuff like that, I realized that my corporate job
#
was now coming to an end, though I have started enjoying putting a movie project together
#
and, you know, seeing it till the end, I said that this looks like a far better, you know,
#
And then I quit my job.
#
And just before quitting my job, I got a call from the Sony network.
#
This was 2003 World Cup.
#
So my last film was still to release.
#
And one of the shows that I'd performed in MTV, the Sony chairman was there and Kapil
#
And these two guys had said ki ye, you know, bache ko dekho hum log extra innings karke
#
launch kar rahe hain, ye Mandira Bedi kar, you know, I always joke in my initial years
#
that nobody noticed me on extra innings because of Mandira Bedi and even Bishan Singh Bedi
#
didn't get noticed for years after taking 266 wickets.
#
But to me, that extra innings moment changed my life.
#
I went to South Africa for the Cricket World Cup 2003, we stayed in Cape Town for two months.
#
I witnessed the Centurion big game, India, Pakistan as a cricket presenter.
#
And the first day, Amit, I land in Cape Town.
#
I don't know what I'm going to do, right?
#
I've been told extra innings, you have to be a filler and you have to fill in between
#
And as soon as I land, this studio head takes me to a room where I enter and I see the mighty
#
Tony Gregg, six feet, seven inches, and I'm like, wow, this is something and it's South
#
Africa 2003, India touted to win the World Cup, the big team, Tendulkar, John Wright
#
saying that, you know, this is the team that will win the World Cup.
#
And I'm sitting there and saying that, boss, I don't know about comedy, but what has got
#
me into cricket is these impersonations.
#
So I have to continue stand up comedy in the way it is, because that is going to get me
#
to this world, which I've always wanted to be part of.
#
So when, you know, sometimes journalists ask me, what does comedy mean?
#
It was here to go, then it continued because it had a financial model and I continued.
#
And then a few amazing things happened.
#
Tony Gregg called me and said, hi, you do a good Tony Gregg.
#
And my first episode was with Tony Gregg himself.
#
Is it online somewhere?
#
And, and we were talking about Inzamam Olaq, who was in prime form during the World Cup.
#
Is impersonation, please, please, please, please, please.
#
So Inzamam, at that time, I always say that whatever may be the question, you had the
#
It was like Azruddin, right?
#
So Shastri would go, Azruddin, it's a, it's a great wicket out here.
#
What did you, what was your strategy?
#
Yeah, I mean, the boss player, the right speed, that's not important.
#
But do you think the Duckworth Lewis will come?
#
Yeah, the boss player, the right speed, that's not important.
#
But Azhar Sehwag at five may, right play, by, by, you do whatever same.
#
And Inzamam was exactly the same.
#
Inzi Razak is your key bowler.
#
Allah taala ka shukar hai, ladke kaafi mainat kar rahe, ladke disheart nahi hua hai.
#
But Inzamam Afridi is your key weapon, ladke kaafi mainat kar rahe, ladke disheart nahi
#
So if you can get Tendulkar out, ladke kaafi mainat kar rahe, he would not end.
#
And we did an India Park review with Tony Gregg, where I am Inzamam and he's Tony Gregg.
#
This is a dream come true.
#
Is Tony Gregg's imitation of Tony Gregg as good as yours?
#
So this is what he said, not bad, my time.
#
That was his first reaction as well, that it was great.
#
And then look at the thing, right?
#
Next episode I'm doing with Ian Chappell.
#
Then I'm doing an episode with Michael Atherton.
#
Then I'm doing an episode with Nasir Hussain.
#
Then I'm doing an episode with Tiger Pattodi.
#
Then I'm doing an episode with Kapil Dev.
#
This is like a dream come true.
#
And I'm discussing cricket with them.
#
And you've been paid for it.
#
More importantly, I've not paid too much for that at that point of time, but what worked
#
for me was my knowledge of the game.
#
And that kind of, I could befriend anybody.
#
And I remember having a conversation with Soha Ali Khan years later and I told her that,
#
you know, Tiger Pattodi had become a good friend of mine.
#
And she said, impossible.
#
My dad was a very private person.
#
He would not befriend anybody.
#
And I said, I'm really telling you, I spent the best two months of my life chatting cricket
#
And she said, no, impossible.
#
He will not talk to you as I'll tell you the story.
#
Second day, I'm there and Tiger Pattodi calls me and says that after I'd done an imitation
#
of Jeffrey Boycott, he said, can you do that again?
#
And I said, I'll tell you a tag episode, the absolute legend of the game.
#
And he started laughing.
#
And from that day onwards, I became his best friend.
#
That same evening, Vikram Sathe, Tiger Pattodi, Kapil Dev having a glass of wine, discussing
#
Can it be bigger than this for me, who has not even been close to the world of cricket
#
so far and now and joined by Ian Chappell and they're talking about those times and
#
the ashes and the carry packer.
#
And I was like, boss pinched me because this is like big stuff.
#
And that when I came back after the Centurion game, I said, that's it, brother.
#
This is what you want to do in your life till the time you can extend and do what you can
#
I think that will be life.
#
And that I came back, I gave my resignation.
#
Thankfully, I was called by the Sri Lanka Cricket Board.
#
Oh, very funny story 2004 Sri Lanka Cricket Board.
#
I get called to do a stand up in the India versus sorry, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh
#
for playing that Asia Cup.
#
I was told that except for president, I think Kumar Tunga was the president of Sri Lanka
#
I said, if you apart from that, you can imitate anybody in Sri Lanka and otherwise we'll throw
#
you back from the airport.
#
So I went for the Asia Cup, I think 2004, 2005, I don't remember.
#
And that's the first time I got friendly with Tendulkar.
#
And I called Samir Digg and told him that, you know, I'm doing this act in Sri Lanka.
#
He said, don't need to tell Sachin anything.
#
You go and chat with him before the show and tell him that you know me, blah, blah.
#
He's anyway seen you at the Seattle Awards a little bit, he'll be fine.
#
I land there and I go to Sachin and at the show and say, Sachin, I'm going to imitate
#
He said, what are you going to do?
#
I've seen you for five minutes.
#
And I do a 20 minute act there, 20, 25 minute.
#
I mean to see the Indian team, Pakistani team, Bangladeshi team, enjoy Sri Lankan team,
#
sorry, enjoying and stuff like that.
#
I said, boss is just getting reinforced.
#
And then I am walking outside.
#
I did the Inzamam imitation in front of Inzamam.
#
So I remember walking out of the banquet area and suddenly I bumped into Inzamam and I think
#
it was Yaseer Hameed, if I'm not mistaken, the opening batsman of Pakistan.
#
And Inzamam comes and looks at me, sabke samne pant utaarne mein maza aata hai.
#
And I said, what an evening.
#
The next day I was to fly back to India.
#
I was at the breakfast table and Sachin Yuvraj Singh and Harbhajan Singh was sitting out there.
#
And that was my first taste of a cricket story.
#
You know, and that's what I realized that this is what I want to experience all my life.
#
This comedy and all is okay, it will keep happening.
#
And about the Sri Lanka wicket or something like that, I had this conversation and Sachin
#
gave a five to eight minute explanation on how to play Murali Tharan.
#
So I was asking him that, you know, to pick kaise karta hai isko and stuff like that.
#
So the moment he realized that this was a relevant question, toh I remember Yuvraj
#
Singh, abbe yeh toh cricket wala hi hai yaar, finally yeh pakayega.
#
But he said something, something.
#
And then Sachin said that, you know, you pick him from the arm, you'll be able to.
#
And I realized that there was some chemistry brewing between somebody who you idolized
#
and kind of became friends with later on.
#
And that's when I, he knew that this is my kind of a guy.
#
And my friendship started with Tendulkar.
#
And in that journey to discover a champion and a whole lot of champions all over starting
#
to tour with Sunandan with me.
#
And the big moment was obviously when I was part of the ESPN commentary team in 2006.
#
So yeah, coming back from the 2004 Asia Cup performance, it got reinforced that boss,
#
It was my gateway to the world of cricket.
#
Comedy was just one way to reach there.
#
Cricket was never a way to reach there, but yeah, at least making fun of cricketers and
#
creating jokes around the game kind of made me go closer to the game.
#
And that's when, you know, things started happening, corporate shows started happening
#
and the big break happened, which was 2006 ESPN when they called me to be part of the
#
Now, up until now, you have to understand that Harsha Bhogle is the only external person
#
who's in the commentary box.
#
Gautam Bhimani is doing picture stories, but he's still not in the commentary box.
#
But I have been called to be in the commentary box, obviously with a view of making test
#
cricket interesting in terms of, you know, what's happening with the broadcast.
#
So though I was in the com box for certain periods, I was mainly doing a show called
#
Tea Spot, which was in tea at the tea interval break along with Alan Wilkins.
#
But I was in conversation with Vasim Akram during the game in between and so on and so
#
forth and Gavaskar and Shastri and Harsha and all of that.
#
But that was a big, big break for me because I thought that now they are kind of accepting
#
me as somebody who understands the game beyond the comedy and this is 2006.
#
So three years of two years of active comedy had already happened.
#
And so looking forward to going to South Africa, three test match series, there was a chance
#
everybody was saying that, hey, there's a good chance that India will beat South Africa
#
So there was this buzz in the commentary box and, and it so happened that we reached their
#
Indian team was in good spirits and we won the first test match.
#
If you remember, that was that big test and we thought that from there on things will
#
go good for us, which didn't happen.
#
Now I am there, I'm doing my stuff slowly getting popularity and you know, because see
#
at the end of the day, cricket expert experts are a lot, but when you add humor to it, suddenly
#
there's this vibe in the box and the broadcast, which everybody is enjoying and stuff like
#
But one incident happened there that kind of put me off commentary forever.
#
And that was during, I think the second test match, I don't remember whether it was a Durban
#
or was it the first test match?
#
I think the last day of the first test match where I was doing a small piece on the ground
#
near the pitch, which was kind of a humorous take on the first test match.
#
And I was wearing India colors because I'd been told when I was going to South Africa
#
by the Sony team, I mean, I was lucky to go to South Africa because earlier they wanted
#
to shoot everything here, but because there was paucity of time that finally got to come
#
And I got these clothes from the Nike shop, which was the Indian attire.
#
And by that time that big deal with Nike had happened with the BCCI.
#
I went into the middle of the pitch and I was just about to record and walks in Sunil
#
Gavaskar and he says, why are you wearing these colors?
#
So I got a shock of my life that in front of the entire crew and all this guy shouting
#
at me and I was what about 29, 30, so I just stopped for a moment, but I didn't say anything
#
You've not played test cricket for India.
#
Why are you wearing the India colors?
#
And this is just ridiculous what this has come to test match cricket has certain value
#
and started giving me a lecture on the ground in front of everybody.
#
Now I am thinking this is an official merchandise that I've picked up from a Nike showroom.
#
Anybody can wear it now because it's merchandise.
#
So the producer is there and I'm asking him that what is the story?
#
Suddenly I see Harsha Bhogle walk and Ravi Shastri walk close and say that Sunny by this
#
is available in the shop.
#
Anybody in the audience can wear it also.
#
No, no, this is just, you know, you test cricket is for pride and some shit he gave me for
#
I kept quiet, did that episode a little bit.
#
Now that's when I realized that this guy is extremely moody.
#
I walk up to the commentary box, I tell the producer that, you know, this is not something
#
I'll appreciate, but he said, no, don't get upset and stuff like that.
#
That same evening, if I'm not mistaken, was a small episode that I had to do with Gavaskar
#
only along with Vasim Akram and Alan Wilkins.
#
So at that point of time, there was this thing about wives and girlfriends coming to cricket
#
So when Alan asked me this question in that segment in Auntie's spot, I said that this
#
is a question I cannot answer.
#
I think I'll leave it to Vasim Bhai and Sunny Bhai.
#
I don't know what Sunny Bhai thought.
#
He gave the answer and then he threw a big tantrum after that.
#
And remember I have worked with this guy in professional management group in my, so he
#
knows me and he started behaving.
#
So I went and said, Sunny Bhai, did I say something wrong?
#
I'll apologize and all of that.
#
Then he said, he didn't, he didn't acknowledge me and he just walked away.
#
That's when I went to the producer and I said, listen, give me my ticket back.
#
I'm not going to take this shit anymore.
#
I haven't, I never wanted to be a broadcaster.
#
You got me into broadcasting.
#
I will do a standup act for your guests and whatever, but this is the behavior I will
#
And the worst thing is he's my hero.
#
I mean, we've idolized this guy and he said, no, man, he's like this, he's that, he's that.
#
And I said, okay, let's agree.
#
We had unfortunately kept down.
#
We lost, but there was some good innings, great cricket to watch.
#
And, but I, the baggage was still there because he was behaving very rudely throughout, throughout
#
means he was not acknowledging me only.
#
And then that day I decided on my flight back and interestingly on the flight back just
#
before the flight, when I was driving to the airport, I got stopped by cops.
#
And this is like, you know, I'm an ICC, whatever ESPN commentator.
#
They stopped me in the middle of the journey to the airport.
#
And those two cops look at me and said, you know, open, open, open drugs, drugs, drugs.
#
I'm like, what is wrong?
#
This is like, I'm going to the airport to catch my flight.
#
And they take all of the money out of my wallet and say that, you know, you go like this.
#
These are cops doing it to a commentator in South Africa, going, somebody going to the
#
I was going crazy at that time.
#
Anyway, I went to the airport, sat on the flight, and I said that never come near broadcasting
#
Because what I had seen, Amit was that Harsha had gone through all of this for a long time,
#
but Harsha is obsessed by cricket and commentary.
#
He, he can't do anything else.
#
So he did not have the option that I had, but I said, because they will not accept anybody
#
It's not means they they're insecure and especially sunny by was insecure about any.
#
Because what was, what was I going to do to Sunny Gavaskar, he's a living legend.
#
And why am I going to do anything that is going to affect him?
#
But then I realized that this is how it's going to be in commentary.
#
If you are able to, and Harsha has taken all of this stress and the insults over a period
#
of 24, 30, 40 years or whatever he's done broadcasting, but he knows this is his calling.
#
There's nothing else I'll do.
#
And therefore he did that.
#
I said, I'm not going to do it.
#
I came back and I'd heard that a lot of things happened in ESPN after that.
#
I said, boss, when standup comedy karenge, and we will, I'll create my own ecosystem
#
of content, which I will do on live shows.
#
Luckily, YouTube had just started.
#
So that clip of Seattle awards now as the first comedy clip on YouTube to go viral.
#
So everybody knew what I was doing.
#
And therefore I said that any content that comes, which is apart from broadcasting, I
#
will do on cricket and hopefully at some point of time, create my own content on YouTube.
#
And I will leave this game from that point of view, because I realized that this is the
#
only country where the board decides who the commentator is.
#
It's not the broadcasters prerogative.
#
And these guys are not going to accept any outsider coming and stuff like that.
#
And that's what changed my life.
#
And I'm very happy that I didn't stay in broadcasting because I would not have been able to live
#
this, you know, under pressure kind of a life.
#
Came back home, thankfully the corporate boom and that was that period of, you know, great
#
fun because every corporate was taking their dealers and this thing, employees to South
#
So with that 2007 to 12 period, I probably would have done hundreds and thousands of
#
shows of two, 300 shows, just traveling abroad with 500 dealers.
#
And sometimes I do it in my jokes as I think that's to say that Gujarat became more vibrant,
#
not because of the chief minister there, but because of Bangkok.
#
Because all sales targets were dependent on going to Bangkok.
#
And if you did well and Gujaratis who had never gone beyond Bhavsar and Nadiad, they
#
went to Bangkok and they were happy.
#
They doubled their turnover.
#
And sometimes I feel that we revived the Thailand economy.
#
They turned over and they turned over.
#
It was a family show, sir, family show.
#
But Amit, you will not believe and Roshan will agree to this every weekend we were in
#
Bangkok because every corporate did gigs only in Bangkok.
#
Thailand hates India because the kind of rada that Indian dealers have done in Bangkok is
#
I must, I'll just tell you about small incident, we're doing one event together and this is
#
for a erstwhile computer company.
#
And we've done the thing and whatever and the show has gone up very well, awards night
#
We guys are back at the hotel and we are eating something late night, whatever.
#
Even the marketing director of the company is a good friend of ours because, you know,
#
Everything's gone well.
#
Now, all these dealers after the show have gone to town and they've come back with people.
#
And as they enter the hotel or whatever, suddenly they see that the lobby is tending the marketing
#
director and we all are behind.
#
Now they have told all the women to buzz off and they've entered the lobby and these girls
#
are holding their passports saying, I'm clean, I'm clean.
#
I can come to your room.
#
I mean, I mean, and they say, no, no, madam, sister, madam, sister, madam, sister, madam.
#
You know, you've seen so many of these scenes, people would, you know, some dealers would
#
shoplift, people would, because, you know, they're saving it.
#
No, no, it was crazy because Indians had not traveled abroad to that extent.
#
now all these companies were taking, which is good for us, right?
#
Because we were entertaining these people abroad.
#
But many of the stories were they did not know how to use an Indian, sorry, Western toilet.
#
And they would do things on that toilet, which had to be sorted by the company heads
#
before they had exited the hotel.
#
But what would they do in the toilet?
#
Just let your imagination wander.
#
Not just that, I'm telling you, so occasionally when people used to go through security check
#
and they had to open their bags, they would have bath towels, bath robes, soaps, someone
#
even carried the safe from the toilet.
#
Sir, was it in the room?
#
They've taken everything from the room.
#
But it was crazy, the cruises, performing and you know, we were always, the fillers
#
were always just before the item number performed.
#
So all the actresses or whatever, it was called item number show.
#
And after the stand up comedy would come the item number.
#
And so I was always in trouble because dealers, internal audience, they would still listen
#
to humor and all of that.
#
But the dealers would want the item number to come.
#
So for that 20 minutes for me in between, I was the big wall between them.
#
But still I managed to do 3000 shows, which shows how hot I am.
#
So that was a fun journey.
#
But this is where my intellectual part of the story started.
#
The touring was going on.
#
So because I had befriended the cricketers by now in the middle of a tour, having a,
#
you know, a nice meal or dinner with, say, Rahul Dravid, for that matter, a sort of Ganguly.
#
Maybe sometimes members from the opposition team who had seen me perform in a, you know,
#
probably a ICC cricket event somewhere.
#
This was where my actual journey started to live international sport at the time when
#
the action is happening.
#
So when you know the next session for the test match is interesting and you've had
#
dinner with, say, Anil Kumble the night before, because you bumped into him in some Indian
#
restaurant and then he's kind of sharing the dynamics.
#
That's when the sport started.
#
The games kind of started, you know, opening up for me where I started understanding the
#
psychology of sport, the physicality of sport, the, you know, the human behavior side of
#
it, the, the competitive advantage that people get out of sledging.
#
What is purposeful practice?
#
What is advantage during sessions?
#
So this started getting, you know, you know, easier and easier for me to understand because
#
I was hearing it from the horse's mouth at the time when the action was happening.
#
So 2006 onwards to 2014 till 2013 till Sachin retired, that seven years, I lived cricket
#
in its totality because even before the Sydney gate happened or after the Sydney gate happened,
#
I was in that press conference.
#
What Roebuck was writing about Ricky Ponting, my interaction with Ricky Ponting during that
#
So this was like was gold dust coming to me and saying, forget the comedy.
#
This is what you've been waiting for.
#
And that was the reason that book happened because I thought that, Hey, I am privy to
#
so many of these stories real time.
#
Let me try and see if I can use humor and put it in a book format.
#
That is where I got interested in sports psychology, where I said, boss, the dynamics of understanding
#
human behavior in the context of high performance sport is the ultimate you can ever get.
#
And cricket is a very amazing game because it has so many facets, unlike football where,
#
you know, whatever number of people playing for one and a half hours and it's over.
#
There's a wicket keeper who has his own story.
#
There is a third man who has his own story.
#
There is a spin bowler who's coming with a new ball who has his own story, which Ashwin
#
beautifully explains in What The Duck, my show where he talks about, you know, Ashinkya
#
Rahane giving him a new ball because he realized that there's moisture and spin might help
#
And that's how he got Steve Smith out.
#
So all these stories, imagine happening to you while the process is on was like means
#
I was learning and learning.
#
I said, cricket is life.
#
So many things are being taught to me through this wonderful game.
#
And I was growing as a person and I thought that was cricket is actually the real subject
#
I should have learned in school.
#
And then the unraveling of Tendulkar and I'm understanding attention to detail, the preparation
#
I remember Sachin Tendulkar was not in form, Rahul Dravid was getting bowled to Hilfenhaus
#
every test match that he played, we lost that series after winning, after losing a close
#
I remember going with Sachin to a vineyard and he explaining to me the dynamics of how
#
we lost that test and you know, talking to Rahul about how his mental frame was extremely
#
good during the Melbourne test.
#
And after that, it started going down.
#
This was a lesson in psychology.
#
This was a lesson in human behavior, which I was just grasping I said, Hey, let me just
#
continue my comedy till the time I can in order to get a sense of what is happening
#
But I realized that my money was coming through corporate India.
#
And that's when as Roshan said that the musical part of it, I started developing observations,
#
politics, current affairs, all these things, I started writing on my own so that my act
#
would become more robust because at any given point of time, a stand-up comedian should
#
have three hours of material.
#
So your 20 minutes get repeated, which is your best because you're safe unless you know
#
the audience is a little open with experimentation because unlike the comedy movement, which
#
started with say Vir Das and Papa CJ sometime in 2008-9, I had no concept of experimenting
#
in a club, getting my material tested and doing it in a corporate show.
#
All my testing was happening on the real time shows.
#
So my risk taking ability went down because I could not have risked material in the Asian
#
So what I would do is make three to five minutes of new material.
#
If I would go from Asian paints to Procter and Gamble, I would test this five material,
#
five minutes from Procter and Gamble to ICICI.
#
I would test another two minutes, but it took me six months to make 30 new minutes.
#
Whereas if I was a club comedian, I would have tested material every day.
#
But by the time this culture happened, I had already done eight, 10 years of work.
#
And then again, inertia had set in and I was saying that I had bargained for comedy.
#
I told him, why don't you do a TV special?
#
He says, wo hi joke mein saw baar alag-alag corporate mein karunga.
#
Ek baar TV pe kar diya, sab de sun liya.
#
And it's a philosophy because I work with Vir and Zakir and all these guys and whatever.
#
When I see them, they will develop material for a year, they will test it, possibly take
#
another year to hone it.
#
And it's got a two-year kind of cycle and at the end of the two years, they'll do a
#
Then that material is over and then it moves on to a new chunk or whatever.
#
I really think Saate could have done that, but what happened was that this was not in
#
I had done my prime and I was excited by this other thing than this.
#
Then that comedy movement started.
#
Roshan used to tell me that, Saate, tu ye zone mein aaja, tu inke bahut aage hai.
#
I said, I'm not in the game, what do I do now?
#
And that's where I think it's my fault that I didn't push myself.
#
I could have probably got six or eight specials by now because I had so much of material gathered
#
But then this interested me more and then this journey started, which led to what the
#
And as we go further, I will probably break down on various special qualities of the sports
#
people that I saw and probably put it in context of what is that one thing I learned out of
#
But this journey of unraveling a high performance athlete was the best thing I experienced in
#
So five or six things I want to double click on.
#
And one of them is this, you mentioned that, you know, initially, of course it was an accident.
#
You were good at imitating people.
#
Then you go to South Africa and it works so well and you are, you know, fully in that
#
mahal and you're thinking, okay, this is working for me.
#
This is what my comedy will be.
#
And it seems there that what happens is that the incentives that are at play are taking
#
your comedy into a particular direction and not allowing you to take it into other directions,
#
which could also have been rewarding for you.
#
And I'm thinking in terms of creators, right?
#
These are choices all creators are confronted with at some point in time that you can take
#
your work in one direction or you can take it in into the other direction and you make
#
a choice and that choice changes what you do.
#
And then what you do changes who you are and you become a completely different person.
#
Like maybe for example, if the actual standup scene, if you think, maybe the scene starts
#
earlier or you come later, then you might say cricket to TK, that's just one thing.
#
And then you become the weird ass or whatever, you know, or the line you chose, which was
#
to go sort of much more into cricket.
#
So do you, did you feel at the time that it was a compromise that you were making that
#
there was a trade off involved or were you just fully happy saying key heart TK, children,
#
let me just, you know, not overthink it, just go with it.
#
I mean, as we discussed, there was no calling of standup, right?
#
Whereas people like Veer and CJ and all those, they wanted to become comedians.
#
Vir Das has been studying comedy since the time he finished his graduation and stuff
#
I was an accidental comedian, but for me, what was important was my first love, which
#
And therefore the comedy was just a way to reach the world of cricket.
#
The moment it started working and I realized that boss, I have it in me to explore the
#
That is when again, I started doing other material to survive in this world.
#
And then obviously there was a business model at pay the incentive was very, very simple.
#
If I have to continue my standup career in the corporate, which is going to pay my bills
#
and not cricket because cricket is a choice I've made.
#
I have stayed away from broadcast because broadcast is where the money is.
#
So I have stayed away from that.
#
So I'll get my ROI from my corporate shows for which I now need to start talking about
#
what is happening around the world, human behavior, a little bit of Bollywood cause music and
#
That keeps my system going and makes me go into the world that I love to be in.
#
So my ability to spend two months in Australia during a test series was actually only one
#
The extension was paid by me so that I could find only because I could do this, unfortunately,
#
because I didn't have the drive for comedy, which is like,
#
So I think it was a problem of again the core point that I made that I was just happy in
#
the current moment and that didn't drive excellence from a creative perspective, which today I
#
don't have any regrets, but I thought I should have pushed myself a little bit more to explore
#
Today I feel it because I am now evolved into, I want to know more about so many different
#
things under the sun, which was not there 10 years back in the last eight to nine years.
#
Probably I've said that, Hey, I don't even want to do comedy now.
#
I want to actually try something completely different because when your growth stops,
#
then you realize that boss, that profession is not worth chasing.
#
And that has happened to me every five, six years with what I have done.
#
So today comedy, absolutely not interested at all, but now I'm putting a frame to myself
#
and saying that, Hey, can I spend three sessions with Vijay Gokhale, who gave me a great perspective
#
And can I put something interesting, which may not be pure standard, but a perspective
#
on what happened from Deng to Xi Jinping?
#
I'm thinking on those lines.
#
It may never happen, but I'm just giving you a China because example, because it just happened
#
But maybe my way of comedy is now to explore areas because what is the beauty of comedy
#
is the moment you want to look at humor in a mundane subject, your ability, your ability
#
to grasp things become stronger because comedy means thinking.
#
And that's why if I'm reading a book today, I would take six months to finish a big book
#
because every eight pages, I would be probably thinking, Oh, this is like this, you can treat
#
There is a correlation in this.
#
Comedy is what you're joining two dots.
#
This is also read to you, this is also read to you, when you join in comedy, it's fun
#
So today I'm seeing if I can evolve myself and use comedy for something else to get
#
knowledge and be curious about a different world, which I did for cricket.
#
But it's still an exploratory thought.
#
Unfortunately, my outcome has never been that they make a great creative piece.
#
And that is what Roshan always criticizes me for, why aren't you giving creative output
#
that you have to make this?
#
I said, man, I can't do that, what's going on and survival is for that moment, tomorrow
#
he tells me that, hey, I'm doing a show, you have to make a 20 minute piece on this.
#
Then I will go and do it.
#
But that's not creative.
#
That is this beautiful word that they told me once, Vijay Tendulkar, I asked him what
#
He said, Vikram, sometimes the creative is also done more, I was the editor of the Maharashtra
#
Times, I used to get so much time and I used to write my story in the train and I had deadlines
#
to submit that story and my best creative work happened in deadlines.
#
So that urgency of the project helped me get the most creative I could ever get.
#
Now some people might disagree with this theory, but I think this is a very interesting theory
#
because my good creative work also has come under pressure.
#
But because I was freelancer, my pressure on myself was not good enough.
#
This is the, Sathe will not admit it, this is the M cube theory of Vikram Sathe, middle
#
class Maharashtrian millionaire.
#
Look, brother, I had a very small circle, I was getting a salary, that was enough, I
#
suddenly discovered comedy, from comedy to cash register, I mean, boss, he was raking
#
So I tried to put numbers in it, he gets so shy, we don't have to discuss our money
#
You will get, you are reading, favorite life, tell you, my thing is my maths immediately
#
If you do 3000 shows, if I also do Calculate, set a base of 1 lakh, it will be 30 crore,
#
no, no, I used to do 2000 in the beginning, anyway, but the logic is now what happened,
#
so you found that source creative goal, and comedy was never his goal, right?
#
But it was a combination, as you said, what he said, that cricket, which was something
#
he loved, yes, intellectual pursuit, see his desperation is to be known as an intellectual,
#
I can tell you even today, why did he write a book, because when a person writes a book,
#
he becomes one, I am saying something else, why did he do TV, that time, Sathe Sandeep,
#
the creative entrepreneur and Sathe Rose, he did three creative ventures, multiple things,
#
he does this too, event company, he does this too, he does this too, he does this too, whatever,
#
then he realized, this is too much hard work, it was the middle class Maharashtrian, why
#
should I do so much work, like, make four jokes, exactly, it will be 10% in a 1 crore event,
#
after two months of work, I could earn that 10% in four days, at that point in time, now
#
in two days, right, so why should I do, effort, input, output, effort, now that is done, now
#
everybody was doing TV, everyone is doing YouTube, everyone is doing, then reluctant,
#
you know, reluctant creator, come on, let's do it, you know, but again, safe reluctant
#
creator, we will not do it without a sponsor, so now sponsor, I found a person who will
#
pay me to make the show, now I will make it, Sathe is taking a risk, no, I will not take
#
a risk, but that's why I say, because what he has achieved within this framework is so
#
good, that if he just once took that leap of, he will keep saying this all his life, he
#
will avoid me like this all his life and say, let's meet, that's it, but that's what I
#
keep saying, that it's that, that now, and I'll tell you one thing, what did he, a comedy,
#
what he's not told you, Sathe believes that in the first 8-10 years of comedy, he was
#
lucky, no, he was bloody talented, right, and he had a niche, oh sir, we have taken
#
out 10 years in comedy, after that, look, there is a comedian in every corner, you get
#
even 10,000, you get 50,000, now you are seeing threat to livelihood, you don't need livelihood,
#
Sathe's entire thing was, he built a beautiful little house with this lovely little place
#
below where you can have concerts, Sathe's thing is done, Akbar Aizen, his Navratans
#
are going on every day, okay, everything is happening, now what is left, what is left
#
on the next intellectual level, give back, so that one area, we have to focus on that,
#
where is the money coming from, because motivational speakers make a lot of money, he knows, right,
#
so man, he gets 10, the host gets 2, how can he go in the range of 10, Sathe's figured
#
out creative business, more than most of us, he doesn't say, but only applies it to the
#
individual enterprise, I keep pushing him saying, you should have used it for a bigger enterprise,
#
to become an entrepreneur, you require tremendous amount of drive, and I start with this thing
#
that, that drive is not in me, it is in Roshan, so Roshan, the problem is that I push Roshan
#
but I didn't give a stake in any business, very sad, very sad, I pushed so much, you
#
can do this, but he didn't give a stake, so that is where my fiending or whatever,
#
I think of every creator in a sense as an entrepreneur of his own brand, so do you
#
actually think like that, or are you more like me, unfortunately, I should think more
#
like that, but, or are you more like me, where you are just taking joy in the things that
#
you do, that you stay happy in what you have to do, absolutely, see, it's sad that I can
#
do marketing plans for everyone except for me, because somehow again that thing, right,
#
intentionally making friends, that is the groove, that what marketing for yourself,
#
shi, aisa koi karta hai kya, aaj tak meri poori career mein ek bhi PR item nahi kiye,
#
as an entertainer, you should have a PR company supporting you, because your brand should
#
be built, but for me, I have recommended PR companies to a hundred talent, including
#
cricketer, that you should design your PR, this is what you should, but when it comes
#
to myself, I can't do it, because I have too much of a baggage, of somebody, my father
#
or my mother telling me, don't buy your own thing, exactly, never do this, your work should
#
speak for yourself, yeah, I keep telling people, good product is the best marketing, but maybe
#
I'm reflecting the same thing, and a little bit of, you know, somebody should sing a song
#
to you, PR kiya toh dana kya, exactly, that was my joke also, yes, that was your joke
#
also, yeah, I think it's that MTV heritage of, you know, celebrating bad jokes, yeah,
#
so a couple of more questions on your cricket times, and they both sort of arise from the
#
same situation, where you are someone who played cricket passionately, knew the game,
#
understood the game really well, but you didn't reach that level of that, and all of that,
#
and then later on, you make an entry, and you're with all of them, so now, a couple
#
of sort of questions arise here, and one is, that in terms of human beings, like all these
#
guys are your personal friends now, right, but the thing is, when you first interact
#
with them, they are also wary, because they are superstars, and they are wary of anybody
#
else, basically, you know, and some, like Sunny Bhai could be, you know, are also fierce
#
about protecting their turf, but otherwise, they are wary, they've learned to be wary,
#
they've learned to distrust the press, and distrust others, and they are kind of in their
#
own bubble, so how was it then, but I would imagine that once you break past that bubble,
#
for you to have that personal relationship with them, becomes much easier, because you
#
have also played cricket at Dadar Gymkhana, or Shivaji Park, or wherever you played, you've
#
gone through the grind of doing all that, you bowled to Sachin, you once said, which
#
in fact, you must answer first, what was that like, so how was it like breaking through
#
and then those personal relationships, and do you find that people at the top like that,
#
are a special kind of lonely, because you have access, cut off completely from the normal
#
world, and the normal life and the normal friendships, ki chal yaar Starbucks me milte
#
hai, and you can't quite do that, yaar katte pe milte hai, so what was it kind of, what
#
was that like, that once you break past a barrier, can you also then just see them as
#
normal people, who've reached a new level, but essentially, you are the same, you also
#
love cricket, you also play cricket.
#
So after my experience with Sunny, and when your idol lets you down, what happens is
#
that you create a philosophy for yourself saying that, never meet your idols, right,
#
because let them be there, just admire them, because when you know them as a person, you
#
kind of get a little defeated by this entire experience, and that happened with Sunny,
#
but life was good, yaar, then came Sachin Tendulkar, who probably is one of the finest
#
human beings that I met in this, specially in this cricketing zone, the most secure,
#
and we were very lucky that we toured at a time when there are too many good people in
#
See, whatever said and done, I don't think, it's like, you know, in one of your episodes,
#
one of the speakers says that, you know, there's S.G.
#
Berman, there is Naushad, there is Madan Mohan, there is Shankar Jaikishan, this is a time
#
of music that can never be replicated again.
#
I think Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag, Kumble, it's very difficult to get this kind
#
of people in the same team, and I was lucky that all these people were very secure, thankfully
#
they first became my fan, okay, and they realized I was more than a fan, and I think this transition
#
of being more than a fan is when you get into the inner circle of cricketers, when they
#
realize that, boss, this guy is not there as a threat, he's genuinely interested in
#
the game, he's making me laugh also, and he's asking me questions that are not journalistic,
#
okay, how do you feel, aur aapko kya lagta hai, when I'm talking of Anil Kumble, I'm
#
saying that, you know, Anil, when did you realize that the LBW decision is going to
#
be the biggest decision for you in your life, because you're a leg spinner, typically only
#
when you bowl a googly, it will get you an LBW, and he said, let me tell you how I did
#
It's also a very funny story, you can prompt me when you want me to tell this story, so
#
it's a fascinating story, and I asked Anil Bhai this question and said that, you know,
#
how do you get an LBW decision, especially when you got it so often, he said, Vikram,
#
the biggest thing in life that I had to do is to convince the umpire that I was not a
#
leg spinner, so he said, most people perceive me as a leg spinner, and that's why they would
#
never give me an LBW decision, because for a leg spinner, the ball is pitched middle
#
and off, it's going outside, and spinners, anyway, in that time when he started bowling,
#
you put the front foot out, you were not given, I mean, if you look at today's generation,
#
probably Gavaskar, Venk Sarkar, Javed Miyadad were out 10,000 times, because there was no
#
concept of deliberate padding right now, they used to pad their life through the entire
#
test match, but that had stopped, so Anil said that there was this umpire, South African
#
umpire, who in the West Indies, I had to convince him that, hey, you got to give me an LBW decision,
#
but how do I do that, so he said there was net practice, Mohamed Keff was batting, and
#
he said, I told Keffu, that I will call Brian Gerling, don't play this, and let it hit the
#
pad, so practice sessions happening, he says, Brian, why don't you come and do a little
#
bit of umpiring in the nets, and Anil said, I started bowling to Keff, Keff would not
#
play the shot, I said to Brian Gerling, how was that, yeah, looks close, second ball again,
#
he bowls, Brian, how was that, yeah, looks close, Anil said, that's what I want to tell
#
you, I don't get the leg spinner going, it's the straighter one that matters, he said I'd
#
left that thought with Brian Gerling, next day, he gave me four LBWs, so the fact that
#
I had asked the right question to Anil Ghumle, gave me a great story about how a bowler thought
#
through and realized that if he had to get LBWs, he had to make the umpire believe that
#
he doesn't spin the ball, it's also, I think somewhere, somewhere, see again, it's the
#
knowledge, I find that I believe that the teleprompter was the death of the true host,
#
because the true anchor had all that reservoir of knowledge, they knew what to pick when,
#
Sathe doesn't use a teleprompter, I see comedians use teleprompters, I see actors trying to
#
tell jokes as anchors of very, very big television shows or big stadium shows, every line is
#
up there, then where's the joy of what you do, where's the joy of choice, where's the
#
joy of this will get that reaction, and it is because of his reservoir of knowledge,
#
that he can again be interesting and interested in a manner which is not, it's the, I don't
#
know whether when we'd spoken last time, I had spoken about that Mr. Bachchan interview,
#
which was the first thing that I had to do on TV, and it was just that I could have just
#
been a fanboy, I was a fanboy, but I did my research, I did my homework, and so when I
#
go in and I say, you know, what does it feel like to be the man whose voice brings the
#
country to a stop, and be the person who was rejected by All India Radio, everybody is
#
asking, how do you feel about Mr. Mithu Duttam, how do you feel about Mr. Mithu Duttam acting,
#
how do you feel about Madhuri Dutchi working with him, he's her dad, there is a level of
#
numbness that sets in with the predictability that people do, it is the googly that we can
#
throw, that makes the difference so often, and that really comes, I mean, what people
#
love, there are so many of your interviews where I've seen people warm up to say, oh,
#
you did your research, right, haven't you seen, I mean, they are mostly, a lot of people
#
I think would be contentious at times on your show, but they just warm up to the fact of,
#
you have given me this much respect, you have shown so much interest, and this is something
#
which is a commodity, I'm telling you, the number of, there was a person who called me
#
on their podcast and whatever, he read out my resume and made every third line a question,
#
I was just so upset, I said, man, you wasted an hour of my time reading a LinkedIn profile,
#
and after five minutes, I started leading him saying, okay, you're not going to go there,
#
I'll take you and I want to, but I don't want to waste my hour, but it's just that, people,
#
I just feel that that celebration of research, of depth, is what you say about radio, that
#
radio is shallow and wide, right, because you have to tell them in the morning, what
#
happened, and they have to cut the popat, and do this and that, and then there will be a
#
commercial break, and they have to play 12 songs, and they have to speak for three minutes,
#
you're free to do what you want, and I think Sathe is best when he's free to do what he
#
really, really wants, and in these interviews, etc., is where he's really, really, I mean,
#
he just comes out so beautifully when you see those episodes and stuff, and I really
#
think he should be doing a lot more of it, I'm sorry, by the end of it, I think I'll
#
take it from here, let's do it now.
#
You know, coming back to the point that you made, and why I want to bring it up.
#
Loneliness at the top, I think this is an overrated thing, it is the problem of the
#
person who goes to the top that also creates the loneliness, and I have seen that with
#
Tendulkar, the friends that he has, and he has a lot of friends, he has a lot of groups,
#
and they have remained faithful, not only because he is Tendulkar, it's because of the
#
effort that Tendulkar and his wife have put in those relationships as well, so you will
#
be lonely at the top, because you have also chosen to be lonely at the top, and it so
#
happens that people who go to the top automatically form an impression of people down below, saying
#
that they are fan level and stuff like that, they won't resonate with me, but in human
#
relations, not everyone is intellectual, not everyone plays cricket, they were your friends.
#
Tendulkar's every friend from Sahitya Sawas is in touch with him.
#
Even when he was playing, he was on message with all the Sahitya Sawas, the Mumbai cricket
#
gang, and therefore this proximity to him made me realise that this loneliness at the
#
top is a choice that you make also.
#
I mean, there are people in your, I mean, I have spoken to a lot of people at the top
#
and they have said that, yaar kya hai na, wo jo log hai na abhi, unse merko ye, inko
#
And I have had this argument with these people and said that yaar, insaan, har insaan apna
#
paplu fit karna jata hai, iska matlab ye nahi hai ki wo usme kuch flaw hai, wo das log
#
tere the, tu unse abhi baat nahi karta hai, usme chalo chaar baat paplu fit karte hai,
#
che toh hai, unse tu ne koshish kariye, effort lagane ki, because the moment you become a
#
celebrity, your friend also gets a little scared of reaching out to you.
#
But if he reaches out to you, have you tried to reach out to him again?
#
No, you haven't, because you become a top guy and you want to now hobnob with all the
#
people who are in that zone.
#
You are lonely because you are hobnobbing with them, and which I have always mentioned
#
to all my creative people and they say, you know, Mumbai is such a lonely place and this
#
I said, the problem is that you are looking at transactional relationships.
#
If you are looking for friendships in your office, which are based on a fundamental of
#
transaction or for that matter, if the business community, if Roshan is meeting six clients
#
and he's now one of the clients doesn't reply to his call when he's not feeling well and
#
say, this is such a lonely world, wo usne kiyo, kyun ki Roshan ke mann mein wo mera
#
naya dost hai, uske sath maine 6 bar daru pari, but wo dost thayi nahi tha raha hai tera,
#
so usse tu ne apeksha karna shuru kar liya hai or people who go to the top now want those
#
top people to start giving him unconditional love, like what his friends did when he was
#
And I do believe that if you in the journey of going to the top are going to forget the
#
people who were with you during that process, because they are now down, they are down market
#
and you are up market now.
#
That is when loneliness at the top happens.
#
Many people I have seen have managed this because they've just remained normal.
#
And Sachin is a great example because he became a prince at 14 and 16.
#
So there can't be a bigger celebrity in India during that 24 years.
#
And he today is in conversation with all the people that he played with in his early years.
#
So I think that it is to do a lot, it's to do a lot with your perspective after you get
#
And I've seen a lot of people fail at that level.
#
Also a lot to do with who you build, what world you choose to participate in.
#
Sushmita Sen had become Miss Universe and then she came and she was Epson's brand ambassador.
#
We were doing a big show.
#
When she was 18, I'd done something with her as a fashion show in Lucknow, which I'd hosted
#
And I went backstage and for the same TV show I used to do with actors, I was backstage
#
and I turned to her and said, Sushmita, how does it feel like to be in Bombay?
#
And now you're part of the film industry.
#
And she loves Shiro Shireen.
#
And she just turned and said, no one will even give you a hug that you'll embrace with
#
This is the city of new talents, get together from a distance.
#
There are very clear cut in this big commercial glamour world of Bollywood and film and all
#
of this etc. and success at this level, you know, with all the awards and all the A-List
#
There is a lot of these things that people have to do.
#
The machinery around the star today, sometimes if a star does a show for you for free, I
#
had a very dear friend of mine who was doing one cookery show and something and she invited
#
some big, very big celebrity, who was a friend of hers, who was to be at her house and whatever
#
and came and she said that, you know, the stars said, of course I won't charge you
#
The entourage cost was so more than the cost of the show and said, I'm sorry, I can't
#
afford these people, you know, so people build these machineries around themselves and this
#
becomes, it becomes more and more lonely because even the set of people keeps people away.
#
Very often there is a set of people who now feel that because they have access and access
#
means money, access means power, they will cut off the access of everyone else.
#
There was a newspaper, a TV journalist when Jeena Isika Naam used to happen and a friend
#
of mine was working on the show as a producer and Akshay was in fact doing that episode
#
and the person who had coordinated the interview, this journalist said that Akshay is not coming
#
just now and whatever but he is very angry.
#
The producer got very upset saying, what happened, no, no, no, won't come, won't come.
#
So after about an hour of saying the person still inside not coming or blah, blah, blah,
#
this producer went, opened the vanity van door and said, I'm just walking in and sitting
#
inside with Akshay saying, when are we starting?
#
She said, we've been ready for the last hour, sir, no one told me, right?
#
And then the famous statement again and sometimes people say these lines to you, Farooq sir
#
when I was trying to cast him, I couldn't get access because I was being blocked and
#
he turned and said, Roshan, this city is such that sometimes here the plate gets hot more
#
So people build these things, they build this area, it's very lonely, no one wants
#
See, this emotional thing gets glamorized, but it is not because I tell a lot of young
#
cricketers that brother, see now your journey, you have reached here, your job is to make
#
a relationship, this is not the job of people and if you don't make an effort to make a
#
relationship, then the people on your side will become your friends, that is the wrong
#
So the people on that side are your protective cover, they are not your friends, but they
#
will tell you not to call your friends, you should understand that your friends are important
#
And which world do you choose?
#
Like you said, do I have to choose the world of Hi Babes or I am happy doing my art concert?
#
I think you should choose both the worlds, but you have the right to call your friends,
#
you have grown up, it doesn't mean that the more you doubt that responsibility, then
#
you will say it's so lonely at the top, you don't know, it's all fake relationship.
#
Brother, how much have you tried, have you tried, no, because I am important, I don't
#
call people, people have to call me.
#
I think I have seen that with a lot of young cricketers also that the moment they leave
#
their small town and come into this world where everybody is, now they are also looking
#
at, if I get Vikram Sathe, then he will do a sponsorship deal, if I come to his show,
#
then my 10 followers will increase and I will get a deal for Citibank.
#
If your lens becomes like this, then that guy in the village becomes immaterial.
#
So I have a follow up question, two angles to it, one is I had done an episode with Harsha
#
Bhogle a long long time back, very small episodes were done, it's only been an hour, but one
#
interesting point he made there was that that generation which you spoke of, Sachin, Dravid,
#
Kumle, all of those guys, they had a solid middle class background with middle class
#
values which he said played a part in making them who they are, for example, you know my
#
speculation about all the great Pakistan talent that used to come up, you know, like every
#
year there would be a new 19 year old blazing his way forward and in one year he'd just
#
And one possible factor for that was that there was at that time, I don't know, but
#
now at that time, no real middle class in Pakistan.
#
So many of these would be small town kids who have come up and who simply cannot handle
#
the fame and the money and they kind of fall apart.
#
And what has happened since in Indian cricket and it's a damn good thing that it's happened,
#
that small town India has really asserted itself that players can come from anywhere,
#
perhaps starting with the Dhoni Yuvra generation.
#
But small town has kind of taken over and you have people from many different backgrounds,
#
But it means that the sort of, you know, even if Sachin, Dravid, Kumle were from different
#
cities, it was homogenous in terms of those middle class values, which means that you're
#
much more settled and you don't go through those experiences.
#
And the second angle is coming to a city, right?
#
When you speak about Sachin, sure, he became a big star very early, but he was already
#
part of what seems to me to be part of a really settled community that Bandra East, you know,
#
Saikar, Sivas or whatever, that community of artists and cultured people and whatever.
#
And you're part of that where nobody gets too big for their boots is that, you know,
#
again, the classic middle class Maharashtrian mentality, even if in terms of income, you
#
And that sense of community is there.
#
But for a lot of people who come to Bombay, including me, when I first came to Bombay,
#
You know, there is no community.
#
Everything initially is transactional.
#
Everything is transactional.
#
Maybe over a period of time, you build a community of friends.
#
But if you've come from a small town somewhere and you're thrust into the spotlight like
#
this to say that loneliness is a choice, I don't think is completely fair in those cases
#
because you don't even know, you know, at the one hand, you might be mixing with the
#
babes, dudes kind of thing and saying, I don't belong here, which is actually a better thing
#
to say to yourself than trying artificially to fit in.
#
And on the other side, you no longer have any common thread that connects you with whoever
#
you might have known in your hometown back there.
#
It just feels very awkward on both sides and those kind of frames.
#
So there are some people who do it well, like MS did it very well.
#
So what they do is that they involve all their friends in business in their own company,
#
which is also not the right thing to do, which is not a right thing to do.
#
But everybody is, see, left, right is not right, answer is somewhere in the center.
#
But they have tried in such a way that my four or five people who put me on hold in
#
my life, I will involve them because I am touring.
#
So you will always have some people find a balance with three or four people traveling
#
with them or being with them MS after he finishes his cricket, he's not in any party.
#
He's in Ranchi with his friends in his old distinct, but they are in touch with him regularly.
#
So the fact of the matter is MS Dhoni is not lonely at all.
#
So people coming from small towns have cracked it because Dhoni for whatever it's worth
#
also is a very smart guy.
#
But maybe you would not have an Umraan Malik get this kind of education.
#
Maybe you would not have a Kuldeep Yadav get this kind of education.
#
But is there a system which tells a Kuldeep Yadav ki bhai abhi tu fast path mein hai, doston
#
Kyuki ye hi terko level pe rakhenge.
#
This has to come in your primary education or this has to come in your family value system.
#
And those who are able to crack that don't suffer loneliness at the top.
#
And if you leave all of that behind and it's not necessary that they have to travel with
#
you, there is a phone and you can be in touch with them.
#
And many cricketers do that on a regular basis.
#
But the moment you try and cross the boundary and say that I want to be friends with the
#
Juhu boys, or for that matter, the Bandra boys, that becomes a problem.
#
And if you keep the balance that these are important people to know, but I come back
#
to my own pond, which Dhoni did beautifully, Dhoni never involves himself in, he doesn't
#
He is back to Rachi and farming.
#
Play MS Dhoni the legend, go back to Rachi.
#
Do five shoots in Bombay, kaise ho be?
#
Even for us, we know him for so many years, he'll not meet more than once.
#
Ha kaise ho Vikram bhai gaya maja aage toh rahe ho, 3-4 jokes.
#
Never will he make an attempt, he doesn't carry a phone.
#
So there is a great example for somebody who's kept the balance of being in a party in Bandra
#
and being in a shoot, go back to his hometown with his six friends.
#
The only thing is that he is an evolved person, he understood it quickly, the younger kids
#
may not be able to understand it, so how can they be understood?
#
But education has to be done to make them understand that boss, the story is not to
#
find friendships in transactions.
#
And this is a question I would like to ask you also that in a city like Mumbai, where
#
everybody has come for a transaction to seek friendships in a pond, which is transactional
#
and then hope that it will give you unconditional love is also a challenge.
#
But see, that's what I'm saying.
#
I'm not saying that nothing can be done, transactional relationship also can be nutritious, but still
#
So I'm just answering what you're saying that see, when you come to, if you think that
#
because this is a city where, okay, city of dreams, dreams get fulfilled, head of business
#
and Bollywood both exist here, whatever, and therefore you will possibly find the top layer
#
I feel that if you're going to come here saying this is a city of transactions, then you will
#
make transactional relationships.
#
But if genuinely, when I came to Bombay, I came to Bombay chasing Shaheen because, you
#
know, she was here and I was like, okay, whatever.
#
I didn't chase Hoppachur and again, I'm not saying that there are many, and I can tell
#
you a lot of young people today are not like this, they are not, there's a set of people
#
and I genuinely believe in them, call them the young creators.
#
I call them this really the, the unafraid generation, they are unafraid.
#
I know the word, I'm flawed, but I'm awesome, right?
#
First time I've heard the word.
#
So I, so I, so I use this very often.
#
So I turn and say that this is generation, they are very happy to own up to this.
#
They're very happy to have conversations beyond the transaction.
#
And frankly, in any relationship, if you and I came and we were supposed to discuss Amit,
#
can you do this podcast for me?
#
And that is the transaction over.
#
So I have a remaining half an hour and that I want to get to know Amit and find that there
#
are places of commonality, they will happen.
#
You will find that, you know, that, that common relevant thing that will happen.
#
I made a film, I'm not in touch with 89% of the people there, but there's a 10% people
#
that I'm still in touch with, not because of transaction, but because there was a common
#
something that we shared, right?
#
I just did the play Namit Das.
#
I just discovered Namit, what a great singer, what a great performer.
#
One day he was sitting and he started telling me a story that was in his head.
#
Loves cricket, has played cricket, you know, and now that's there.
#
Sagar Deshmukh is a brilliant actor from the Marathi stage, played Ambedkar on the television
#
show for two years, learned something with him, ek nahi relationship bin gayi, koi aur.
#
So, you know, aap dhund kya rahe hain, wo hai.
#
And I know that sometimes at a young age, you might be wanting this thing of saying,
#
oh, I need to quickly reach to the top.
#
So what is the fastest transactional path?
#
But genuinely, I find a lot of young people, while they're aware of this, suddenly, see,
#
remember what you were taught at that point in time was just work, work, work, because
#
enjoy karne ka time baad mein aayega, some of us chose not to do that.
#
But I find a lot of the younger lot, because of this whole work, life, you know, what is
#
my balance, mental health, breaking down, my daughter is 15, whatever, yes, I mean fine,
#
my children come from a slightly privileged background now, but I find them to be about
#
a lot of these things, which normally mujhe lagta, they are happy enjoying certain aspects
#
Gap years have become such a common thing, pehle gap year used to be a slur.
#
Oh my God, they took a gap year.
#
Now taking a gap year is like an international thing of I want to go and discover the world.
#
I want to go and find things.
#
Being a digital nomad, not wanting to own a house, not wanting to have a car.
#
I think a lot of this is breaking down.
#
Obviously a lot of it has to do with this new generation.
#
And of course, we live in a multitude of India's as well.
#
So when you go to a smaller city, it's a very different thing.
#
You go to a, you know, you go to an industrial town, people behave very differently.
#
You talk to a business community.
#
But I mean, in all of this, I am very happy that I largely exist within the creator subset.
#
And I really find young creators are now in this, you know, flossom, honest space of ownership,
#
which I personally really love.
#
So I have a broader question for both of you, which, you know, ties in different threads
#
of what we were talking about.
#
Like earlier you mentioned, Vikram, that you were at this event where they wanted victory.
#
They were negotiating, right?
#
Paplu kaise fit kare, transactional mindset and so on and so forth.
#
And while a lot of people I imagine who would be successful today in my mind, whenever I
#
meet a successful person like Roshan, I find them to be very humble and open, completely
#
different from this, where the norms are that, you know, I will be warm, I will be whatever
#
and a paplu fit doesn't matter to me.
#
And it seems that there is a difference in norms here.
#
Another place in which there is a difference in norms here is the Bollywood example you
#
give where the actress tells you that, you know, I have to throw tantrum on the first
#
And here, and they're all responding to rational incentives.
#
You know, she gave you a rational reason.
#
These are the incentives.
#
I need to be taken seriously.
#
So therefore, on the first day, I have to do this.
#
You know, the people who were in that meeting who said ki boss victory, I love the way you
#
said that, you know, they're also responding to incentives.
#
And I remember something that Jagdish Bhagwati said a while back where he said that India
#
has a rent seeking mindset, China has a profit seeking mindset.
#
Now I don't know how true this is of China, but with India, the rent seeking mindset has
#
certainly been there because a lot of people I used to meet who would talk of business
#
or talk of whatever, were always looking for ways in which kisi ko chutiya manate, you
#
know, let's take advantage of someone, which is a rent seeking mindset and it's complete
#
But this is what also this was.
#
So my theory of that is that it is not that a cultural norm comes out of culture itself
#
per se, but it is part of a feedback loop with the institutions that exist that because
#
since independence, we were so statist that the only way for decades that you could make
#
money was either if you were part of the state or if you could use state power to, you know,
#
be a crony capitalist or whatever, but basically use other people's power and earn rent that
#
That brought about the rent seeking mindset ki scarcity economy tha, kisi ki paas kuch
#
You know, double thank you moments in that sense are not conceivable if you don't have
#
So from that, after 91, perhaps over the decades, we evolved to the situation where today the
#
best way to make money is you make somebody else better off positive sum game.
#
So do you sense a shift in mindsets from the Pablo setting Pablo setting rent seeking mindset
#
And even in terms of Bollywood, like I'm just wondering, you know, we talk a lot about cultural
#
norms and we think of it almost as in terms of hum to ese hi hai and I don't buy that
#
I don't think that a cultural norm is purely cultural.
#
And I don't think that, you know, when you say young people are like this today, I don't
#
think that it's young people are like this today only.
#
I think the environment, the incentives are responding to plays a big part.
#
So you know, Roshan, you would be in better position to answer this, but generally about
#
culture, you know, you behavioral change takes a long time to set in.
#
But I have seen in certain organizations come back to MTV, right, that if the organization
#
has a cultural point, at least you know that there is a cultural change in that organization.
#
And when you say creative people, the young creative people and your observation, I would
#
like to believe that a large part of them are working in the organization culture that
#
you have set in, which is at commune.
#
Like in MTV, the game changing moment for me to come out with my creative thoughts was
#
there was this beautiful philosophy set by MTV US, which was based on the principle of
#
WQ, which is vacuum is quotient.
#
So the whole principle was any communication that goes from the marketing department, creative
#
department, whichever has to have a WQ.
#
So even if you were making a merchandise in form of a cup, you wanted to see how creative
#
That was a cultural value, which meant that even the finance guy, the accountant who's
#
going to give you your salary has to do it in a vacuum is quotient manner.
#
And I think that cultural value set the cultural tone of music, television, and therefore the
#
creativity flourish at a country level.
#
Is there a cultural value that can be set in is a big challenge.
#
And therefore, when you say have things changed, maybe in certain places where there has been
#
an active role played by a certain senior member of the organization or for that matter
#
that milieu that, you know, we want people to do this.
#
And therefore, like, you know, there's this beautiful example that happened in Sweden
#
where they said that we want to inculcate the habit of exercising on the go.
#
And therefore they created this escalator.
#
And then next to the escalator, there were normal stairs which were designed in the form
#
Every time you stepped on the first step, there was a different sound.
#
And they realized that 50 percent of people using escalators had shifted to.
#
So the visual cues were so strong in order to create a cultural value to exercise.
#
And I thought that was a great example.
#
We do it in one of the companies that I've invested in.
#
We're trying to see if cafeterias in offices can be designed in such a way that the first
#
thing you see is protein and water.
#
So even if you have to go to the water power, you have to ensure that you're crossing the
#
visual cues of having water, having the protein and then going into carbohydrates in order
#
This is in that book, you know, where they actually change the entire order of shelves.
#
Nudge would have things about it.
#
It is in nudge and whatever.
#
I think nudge can be taken too far.
#
But these are great examples, I totally approve.
#
So the thing is that this can be created, but the behavioral change with all these visual
#
cues, cumulatively in an entire generation, how they should be done, like, you know, for
#
me, this World Cup, the winner is Japan.
#
I mean, if the Japanese have built one value in this world today has been when the Japanese
#
fans cleaned the stadium before they left.
#
And then the PR happened on the players after they left the dressing room.
#
That was completely clean to me.
#
And then what happened in the next game, Saudi Arabia, people clean the stadium after.
#
This is the greatest example set by have a behavioral of behavioral change by a team
#
which is so influential today because of the kind of football also they're playing.
#
And I think if something of that nature happens in society, I think we will also move Delta.
#
Whether that's happening at a large youth level, I do not know.
#
But I think it is happening at an organizational level.
#
No, I definitely think that, you know, I mean, yes, at Commune, we do practice that kind
#
of mindfulness, et cetera, but I notice it even outside.
#
And and today, there will be young people who will be part of your organization.
#
I remember on the group, I would often use this word guys, right, guys, can you do this?
#
So one day, you know, this person said that, you know, I'd appreciate if you actually
#
were a little more conscious of the fact that the team has people who might be gender fluid
#
and people who, you know, have not, you know, would prefer if they referred to you referred
#
to everybody from a different thing.
#
And the entire team appreciated it.
#
I mean, we all actually sat and when I'm now conscious of this or whatever.
#
Now sometimes it turns out you're taking things too far or whatever.
#
Our discussion sometimes on these things, they they're unafraid to say it.
#
Now will everybody accept it at large?
#
As you said, this is a great example that you gave about, you know, what's happening
#
Today, there was a thing that when Japan lost the the manager was standing there and bowing
#
I mean, it's beautiful or the the Brazilian team guy hugging because his teammates with
#
the rival team with the South Korean player and hugging him and saying that, you know,
#
you gave your professional best and I did.
#
I really it is these things that need to be celebrated a lot more somewhere.
#
I feel that we have also started in some bits like when roadie started happening, I was
#
a little scared because you are somewhere when Big Boss or roadies may you bring in
#
people and characters where you're celebrating the lowest common denominator, not the highest
#
You are doing it for TRP, et cetera, et cetera.
#
But believe you me, you're setting a bad precedent to give you an example.
#
On the other side, one of the boys used to work with me, my content team, and he was
#
on the train going to Lucknow and he came back and said, I've got to tell you the most
#
He said that we were sitting on the train and suddenly, you know, his phone was borrowed
#
by the other person because he wanted to use the internet, so he said, use these phones.
#
He said, why two phones?
#
He said, my parents also use this one.
#
I mean, I see MX on this, right?
#
And sometimes there is a channel of Balaji, there is some adult content on it, I see that,
#
but I keep this for my parents.
#
India, most young people, everybody still has this sense, which is why a panchayat works,
#
which is why a gullac works, a tathaastu works at one level.
#
And we just need to learn to celebrate it a lot more.
#
It's not that just the, okay, fine, the blood and gore in Amirzapur suddenly shocks you,
#
but then it becomes that everyone wants to do that.
#
You know, like if you go to a OTT today to say, what do you want to see for two years
#
ago, I remember when we used to have meetings, all discussions were boss, you know, sex,
#
crime, murder, extramarital affair, what are you talking about?
#
But there's a bunch of people who went back and said, no, we'll keep bringing different
#
things and they have created that space.
#
So somewhere I do feel that this is a lot about, I believe that this generation is very,
#
I think one of the big things is remember that most of these people are born with the
#
They've been born with a window to many worlds.
#
We had a window to either our neighbors or our parents.
#
My father told me about those values, the other one, our one world is college or school,
#
They have a million words.
#
I can't stop my daughter from watching Euphoria, which I'm very scared that a 14 year old
#
So Euphoria is this show on Netflix, which, which actually, if you see, had themes that
#
were very extreme, you know, so an underage person having an affair with a married woman,
#
married man or whatever, because of a dating thing that happens, drug use, et cetera, casual
#
sex or no, as a parent, there was this big thing, but I also know that at the same time,
#
she has a set of values, which she's been brought up with.
#
There are conversations via my daughter can sit with me and have conversations on topics
#
I can't believe my sister could have ever had with my father.
#
Sometimes it is to me a little difficult, and I'll tell Shaheen to sit and say, listen,
#
can you have this chat with her or whatever?
#
I have to say, you're giving me that dad look, you know, if she's dressing up or whatever
#
and she's going out, she's at that age, there'll be boys, there'll be discovery.
#
But you know, as long as there are these multiple windows open, my fear is when the single window
#
becomes that one window, which everybody is celebrating, which becomes the fad of the
#
And 90% of fads, as you know, are the negative fads about algorithms pick up and put out
#
because shock gets a lot more response, we react a lot faster.
#
But somewhere, when I see the better India story coming up on my feed, I'm a lot more
#
happier saying, okay, this is also coming.
#
Or when I see the work that you were does, Nikhil was on your podcast or whatever.
#
I mean, I'm happy that there are channels like that as well, which are giving.
#
And I think what Roshan you're saying is something that I've been saying to a lot of people because
#
human beings are wired for negative, right?
#
You have a hundred good things people say to you on social media, but one guy abuses
#
You live with that and that will depress you.
#
And the only way to cure bad content is to make good content.
#
There is no other way out.
#
And that's why this whole thing, don't make this, don't make that, that's not in our
#
Make it good so that if five out of a hundred people shift here, you've created a movement.
#
So that is why as a principle on social media, I do not write anything negative.
#
I will just see when you say good things that these guys have done good work, you might
#
If you just one guy, you'll get a thousand, so your fan following, which is a trap is
#
going to make you say negative things.
#
But as a principle, if we are all in it together, we have to ensure that the only way to break
#
down negativity is to say, Hey, this guy did this Amit's podcast is very good, Roshan's
#
Because even positivity, now that the time has come that the public has been given positive,
#
then he can be addicted to positive.
#
And I think that's the journey we all are probably taking in.
#
I think what I've kind of noticed is if you look at the sort of virality that happens,
#
it's really shitting on other people because here's the thing.
#
If I'm on Twitter and I quote tweet you and I say something rude about you want something
#
I would never do in real life, but Twitter makes it easy.
#
Then what happens is by standing in judgment over somebody else, I have made myself feel
#
more knowledgeable and virtuous.
#
And within my tribe, if that other person is hated, then my status also goes up a little
#
Because if someone curses you and I say Roshan's my friend and Roshan's given a curse to you,
#
we both are going to beat up Amit.
#
So I'm getting a dopamine rush because this guy has said something to you on Twitter.
#
Now that's dangerous because what I'm creating is there are billions of people like this
#
abusing billions of people and they're getting a rush out of it.
#
And that is a monster you cannot control.
#
This is amplified at scale.
#
In fact, I wrote a recent post about how Twitter could change for the better.
#
And, you know, these incentives, I think, can be changed as a structural thing within
#
Twitter that it's just, I mean, they're trying to maximize engagement, but it's kind of just
#
I mean, I said this to my friend that if Elon Musk really is serious, he should make sure
#
that after every thousandth tweet, positive tweet, only those will get verified.
#
In the sense that you are at least saying that we are using it more as an educational
#
or, you know, unifying medium rather than all the negativity.
#
But that's, I mean, it's just, you know, and see what happens.
#
Look at this thing is that that the half life of social mediums is decreasing as we go along.
#
Facebook lasted for a long period of time.
#
Then comes an Instagram little, you know, I mean, it's there, but again, you can now
#
see that certain parts of it are crumbling, WhatsApp, et cetera, Tik Tok.
#
Now there's this new thing which these young kids are using where you just take a picture
#
I'm just forgetting the name of the app.
#
I'll try and not Snapchat or something.
#
So there's something new.
#
It's called BU or something or whatever.
#
It's just once a day, you've got to post a picture and it posts a picture of both sides,
#
you and what you're seeing.
#
Because they're saying overfeeding is not going to work.
#
You don't need to constantly fall trapped.
#
So they are themselves reacting to it.
#
They are building their own networks and these new networks will continue to happen.
#
Everybody the minute Twitter started, people started worrying about Twitter dying.
#
Everybody suddenly started talking about this new network, which is an online server based
#
kind of network or whatever.
#
People are making those choices.
#
It's just that you do not get Twitch, for example, for gamers, we'll be here.
#
Now in, I mean, you know, dating app started or whatever, Tinder, et cetera.
#
Oh, this is too male centric, blah, blah, blah.
#
So for people who want to choose, there is Grindr, there is Hinge, there's so and so,
#
I mean, people will keep creating new ways.
#
It's a matter of where people are going to move.
#
I mean, the larger picture that I look at is that if you think about the biggest sort
#
of endeavor that human beings have embarked upon in the last few hundred years, it is
#
the endeavor to mitigate our programming with our culture.
#
We are the only species which can actually reflect on our programming, by which I mean
#
our genes that can think about our instincts and say that, no, this is wrong.
#
For example, a choice not to have kids is actually against your programming.
#
We are wired at some levels to be tribalistic.
#
We are also wired for the opposite.
#
We are also wired to be altruistic.
#
Now the point is, like I love Steven Pinker's words that nature gives us knobs, nurture
#
Now, the thing is, we have all these knobs.
#
How are they being turned?
#
Now, what social media has done is especially Twitter in trying to maximize engagement,
#
like Jonathan Haidt has pointed out how toxic the Facebook like button and the Twitter retweet
#
button are and specifically the Twitter quote tweet for the kind of rudeness and interactions
#
What it has done is that it has amplified the worst aspects of our character, the tribalism,
#
the antagonism, all of that.
#
Whereas I think that it is possible to be intentional about it and say that we won't
#
amplify these particular buttons, but we'll amplify others because we also have that sense
#
that longing for community, that longing, you know, you want to start those positive
#
But I think all of that is possible.
#
But the one thing which will make it possible is if people are well fed.
#
So we'll take a quick lunch break, then we'll come back and discuss the lessons that both
#
of you have learned in your rich careers.
#
Long before I was a podcaster, I was a writer.
#
In fact, chances are that many of you first heard of me because of my blog India Uncut,
#
which was active between 2003 and 2009 and became somewhat popular at the time.
#
I love the freedom the form gave me and I feel I was shaped by it in many ways.
#
I exercise my writing muscle every day and was forced to think about many different things
#
because I wrote about many different things.
#
Well, that phase in my life ended for various reasons.
#
And now it is time to revive it.
#
Only now I'm doing it through a newsletter.
#
I have started the India Uncut newsletter at indiancut.substack.com where I will write
#
regularly about whatever catches my fancy.
#
I'll write about some of the themes I cover in this podcast and about much else.
#
So please do head on over to indiancut.substack.com and subscribe.
#
Once you sign up, each new installment that I write will land up in your email inbox.
#
You don't need to go anywhere.
#
So subscribe now for free.
#
The India Uncut newsletter at indiancut.substack.com.
#
Welcome back to The Scene In The Unseen.
#
I'm chatting with Roshan Abbas and Vikram Sathe and Roshan just asked me to ask Vikram
#
Vikram, when are you getting married?
#
I haven't thought about it yet, but maybe one day.
#
So it's not a principled stand that we will never get married and that we will be alone.
#
I told you, I don't think so deeply.
#
We unfortunately lost a friend who actually said that I will die if you don't get married
#
and that's what happened.
#
You know Sajja Chuna Wala I think or whatever.
#
I didn't know he passed away.
#
He passed away a few years ago.
#
I used to make a standard joke every time.
#
That had nothing to do with me.
#
Poor Sajja used to always say as a line that Vikram, I will die if you don't get married.
#
But Roshan can't say this because Roshan is going to live till 120 years.
#
So, you know, in the beginning, let's do this before we come to everything else.
#
In the beginning, we were talking about time and money.
#
But when I asked the question, I thought that Roshan has a lot of time because I think there
#
were the three of us and a fourth person.
#
We were sitting in Roshan's house and Roshan was talking about how we are all going to
#
live till 120 and healthy lives.
#
Not that we have been through dementia for 30 years and don't remember anything, which
#
is already the case with you.
#
And I asked Roshan, okay, so how many of us will, how many of the four of us on this table
#
And he said at least two.
#
But I want you to expound on that because when you sort of explain that, it's everything
#
about it seemed very rational.
#
And in fact, over the last few months, I've also been doing my little bits of biohacking,
#
reverse type two diabetes, all of that.
#
So I understand that we know a bit more than we used to.
#
And a lot of progress has been made in this field, not in terms of understanding it to
#
Tell me your thoughts on it.
#
No, so I think I think, you know, when we were growing up, and I remember in school,
#
whenever there used to be any and you know, textbooks used to have a little bit on India's
#
And I always remember one thing that it used to say that in the Vedas, they used to say
#
that there are four, you know, parts of a man's life.
#
And they used to say 25 years, which is Brahmacharya, 25 years, which is Grahasthya, 25, which
#
is Vriddha and 25, which is sanyas.
#
So obviously, they were looking at a hundred year lifespan then as an imagined idea.
#
Now, let's say whatever happened, life happened, you know, and stuff.
#
Today, we have now reached with a certain number of scientists and I mean, which is
#
why this whole thing about, you know, what alternate therapies work, what don't.
#
And now, I guess when I have a certain amount of time, I've started exploring that a lot.
#
I think a lot of it started with my parents aging.
#
I am like any other person, I'm sure I mean, I'm obsessed with my parents and I keep constantly
#
trying to see how, you know, my dad's 82, okay, so how can he live to leave a healthy
#
And a wealth conference, which I host every year, had a person who came and said, so once
#
you have made money, what stands in the way of you enjoying it?
#
And people said, you know, time and this and that, and the person said, no, it's just health
#
And which is why most entrepreneurs, you know, who have made big money are now investing
#
in health tech and are looking at longevity as a science.
#
What this has led to is a lot of, you know, looking at the future and some amount of looking
#
at the past for solutions.
#
Yesterday, I was reading something about the vagus nerve in our body, because, you know,
#
we were talking about anxiety, me and my wife and stuff, and it said it's a vagabond nerve.
#
It doesn't, it's not present from one point to one point, it's present in so many places.
#
And then the ways in which bringing down anxiety, et cetera, was mentioned seemed a little bit
#
of yoga, seemed a little bit of science, Deepak Chopra was talking about it as well.
#
And I'm slowly going towards the fact of saying that there are five facts that I have now,
#
David Sinclair, someone I follow now very closely.
#
There is of course, Huberman, I think, is another person who talks a lot about health
#
and these two people I follow and David Sinclair, I follow like obsessively now.
#
He's written this great book called Lifespan.
#
And apart from the book, the podcast he did on Lifespan with the person who helped him
#
co-author the book, in which they asked a lot of questions, and it seemed to break it
#
down ultimately to a couple of things.
#
One was a very simple thing of turning and saying that your body needs enough time to
#
regenerate, which is why it requires more than eight hours of sleep.
#
Most of us don't get that.
#
So A, if you can move towards that.
#
Secondly, cells need to be shocked out of complacency.
#
So over a period of time, our body becomes absolutely complacent, our muscle tissue at
#
some point will stop generating because your brain is saying, I can only now take care
#
So if he's not using his arms too much, let that muscle degenerate, let me focus on the
#
legs or other parts or whatever.
#
So therefore, if you really want to look at how to keep your cells enhanced, you've got
#
to give them extremes, which is why you see there's a lot of extreme temperature therapy.
#
So if you go towards the fjords or anything which is above the Arctic Circle, there's
#
a lot of ice dipping that happens.
#
I had gone to Finland for a thing and one day they were doing this breaking an ice thing
#
and actually everybody was diving and how long could they stay inside?
#
But today it's a scientifically proven fact that if you spend time in really water which
#
is below zero degrees, the cells are shocked into saying, oh, these cells have crossed
#
their extreme, they should die.
#
These cells are now in their prime and they need to be primed to handle this as well.
#
Saunas and extreme heat.
#
So therefore, extreme temperature events, if you introduce in your life, they immediately
#
lead to more longevity.
#
Personally, I've researched it, read about it and I'm trying to see if one can do it
#
I've tried a little bit of it.
#
The ice therapy is bloody cold and difficult, but it's crazy when you do it, you really
#
There's something about it.
#
The two things which are chemical formulas which seem to really work is what David Sinclair
#
Of course, a lot of the research is on mice.
#
Now some of it is getting into human trials or whatever is two things called Reservatrol
#
One he calls the petrol, the other he calls the accelerator.
#
So it says that you need both of them.
#
So after a certain point in time, the cells do not produce internal energy to be able
#
to keep themselves going, which is why NMN is needed and Reservatrol is the pedal which
#
makes sure that there is acceleration in terms of that.
#
So these are two more habits.
#
Then breathing, where a lot of what I have learned over the years is now, I mean, when
#
I did yoga many, many years ago and then gave it up entirely, and now I just try to practice
#
Most of us do shallow breathing, which is like we take about 12 to 15 breaths in a minute.
#
Whenever you will practice breathing as a practice, you will realize that people are
#
bringing it down to about four breaths a minute.
#
And that is, again, because a simple technique is what you call a four, seven, eight, which
#
is you take a breath in a sharp inhale of four, hold for a seven and exhale at eight.
#
So with various kinds of breathing, you are actually able to get your body rid of a lot
#
of toxins, get a lot of your anxiety out, your stress out.
#
And I've always looked at cancer and I know that somewhat of cancer, obviously, I don't
#
know about the hereditary back, I'm not a doctor, but I've always somehow found it
#
is a lot of life events that are associated with a set of people who get some of these
#
diseases, which has a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety and stuff.
#
So I think if one can follow some of these things, definitely we will bring our lifespans
#
And it is happening already.
#
You know, I mean, I can easily see 100.
#
But if you are able to even do your diet, you know, which and food is something which
#
is the only place where I don't want to control my diet, I want to enjoy good food with this
#
combination 120 and it is happening.
#
You go to Okinawa and I mean, this entire research that happened about Japan and why
#
the people in this particular region of Japan have an average lifespan of about 100 plus
#
and some of them are 120, 118, etc. have lived that long and lived healthy lives to that
#
So I personally believe in this.
#
I'm trying a lot of this right now.
#
So maybe in episode 3000 and whatever, when you and I have reached that healthy, happy
#
Sir, you will reach it.
#
Don't expect too much from me.
#
No, no, I mean, I mean, the part that scares me about aging is really the decline.
#
You know, I saw my father's quick decline where he kind of almost lost his personhood
#
Your autonomy goes, your dignity is at threat and all of that.
#
And that's something that kind of scares me about it.
#
So what kind of lifestyle changes did you?
#
Have you actually, are you living?
#
So as I told you that the supplements is something I'm definitely doing breathing, I definitely
#
Currently, I try to do it for about 15 minutes.
#
I'm also a big hacker in terms of finding tech.
#
So there are, there were at least two desired devices that I started using quite regularly.
#
One was almost this brain scan, you know, I am Muse is what it's called.
#
And it's a band that was actually created originally to check brainwaves.
#
And they realized that they can actually start telling your theta state, your beta state,
#
And if you actually use that app, and it is phenomenally well done, the app, it's able
#
to give you a very deep understanding of which meditative state you're in.
#
And I really, really enjoy that I practice that, you know, it's now reaching the next
#
level as another device that is coming in.
#
We both tried to do that, you know, glucose monitoring, CGM, and Sathe is a big proponent
#
In fact, he's invested in a company that's working on that as well.
#
I just think the price point is very high for average people right now to be able to
#
Because 4000 bucks sold for 15 days, a little high for everybody to invest.
#
My mother almost died when I told her, okay, but again, I think, I think as long as you
#
can monitor, of course, there are people who have views of saying how much you should monitor,
#
but I don't get anxious.
#
So the thing is that I'm not, I'm, I'm constantly looking at it and saying, Hey, this is just
#
one more parameter that I can possibly tweak with alzheimer's if you don't know the reading,
#
but the drug, which is, which has now shown about 28% people have had reduction of symptoms.
#
It's definitely going to come into clinical trial.
#
It's already doing some human trials, I think it'll be full.
#
So there was another book that I, that I, that I came across, I think, which factfulness
#
if I'm not mistaken, and which turned and said that was look at the facts around you
#
and some of the facts would actually prove to you that we're in a better world than before.
#
What was disease 200 years ago and what it is.
#
So if you look at just that cycle, look at where we're going to go.
#
So I'm constantly monitoring it.
#
I keep doing a couple of these things that extreme.
#
So we've just yesterday started looking for a bathtub in which we can put ice and do ice
#
I don't know whether to lead, but it's going to be so I'm very excited by it at the moment.
#
So I, I also kind of interacted with a lot of scientists in that company that I'm invested
#
in called gene part diagnostics, and these are mostly geneticists.
#
So they typically avoid answering these questions because they are into pure science, right?
#
They're into solving medical problems at the moment saying that, Hey, how do you detect
#
How do you solve the problem of spinal muscular atrophy in Turkey where we've got a great
#
deal with the Turkish government believes that the amount of money that you're going
#
to spend in curing patients will be far higher than money you'll spend on diagnosing.
#
So it makes sense that you diagnose an entire population and it might be cheaper for you
#
to identify those patients, treat them effectively rather than doing a random, you know, cure
#
for a lot of people and having the insurance come into play.
#
So I, what I realized after talking to them, there is a three, it's a triangle.
#
One is what Russian talked about is stress and anxiety.
#
It's the cause of major diseases.
#
Now that you can solve by yoga or whatever you do, breathing exercise and stuff like
#
The other two components that kind of excited me.
#
And as you rightly said, whether it is the Google's, whether it's the Facebook's of
#
the world, all the big boys want to live for another 40 years.
#
So all that excess research in the name of, Hey, we want to do impact work in health is
#
basically trying to solve these problems.
#
And the two problems that I thought were that resonated with me.
#
One was a field called pharmacogenomics.
#
The other field was basically slop, slowing down degeneration of white loggers.
#
So the pharmacogenomics is a very interesting field of play.
#
What it essentially says that suppose you use a certain statin or for that, you use
#
a blood pressure medicine for your blood pressure.
#
You have to understand that all blood pressure medicines may not work on everybody.
#
So therefore I will do a clinical analysis of your blood sample.
#
I will do a full analysis and I'll tell you that for each of your organs or each of your
#
medical problems, these are the set of medicines that you should be taking.
#
So the effectiveness of the medicine on your body is post a genetic tailor to your genes.
#
And that I have seen with a promoter, Dr. Nikhil Zakardar's father, his father was
#
diagnosed with fourth stage cancer and nothing was working.
#
And unfortunately in the Indian system, it's more about cure.
#
It's sometimes beyond the realm of cure, you don't go into problem solving abilities.
#
So he went and spoke to a company in the US and they said that the best way to treat this
#
is to kind of find out which medicines work more effectively on him.
#
They did an entire pharmacogenomics genetic study on him and they realized that two basic
#
problems, which are not cancer related, they changed the medicines and he got better and
#
So the moral of the story is that there will be customized medicine in the future.
#
And the moment customized medicine happens, you're automatically making it, you're increasing
#
So all your diseases or medicines that you're going to take after the age of 50 or whatever
#
statins, whether it is diabetic medicines, you are automatically increasing by 10%.
#
So if you're 80, you already gone to 90 to some extent.
#
The third part of it is very interesting.
#
He's saying that if there are six or seven vital organs, I don't remember how many we
#
have, but if you identify a weak spot.
#
So for example, sugar is your problem.
#
Two of the biggest killers, as we all know, is sugar and salt.
#
And it's obviously coming from a point that our brains are still wired millions of years
#
ago, but our technology has enabled us to not adapt to the, from a physical condition.
#
And therefore we human beings have created N number of sugary device, sugary foods and
#
salty foods, which kind of up dopamine levels.
#
But we have to understand that we got all of this through the forest, through only one
#
discovery of a little honey in one month's time.
#
So we stored all this salts and fats, and now we are getting it in huge quantities.
#
And therefore that's causing the degeneration.
#
You identify, suppose your weak link is heart or your weak link is liver.
#
Then you make sure that all your degenerative organs are treated in such a way using even
#
to the extent of bio hacks as well as bionic, I mean injectables and make sure that your
#
degeneration overall degeneration stops.
#
So if you do these two things automatically 20 years, you are up.
#
So apart from that, I think they're getting there.
#
You'll solve the problem 20% by just doing these two things.
#
And then if you have a technological breakthrough, like what you're saying, the two medicines
#
or whatever, what was that?
#
MN, Reservatrol, if all of this comes, and Reservatrol increases our reserve, then nothing
#
That must be why they named it.
#
No, they must have said that people will feel that if they take Reservatrol, the reserve
#
I must tell you that they discovered that it comes from the skin of grapes.
#
So somebody said, how much wine do you have to have when thousands of glasses will give
#
you the amount you require.
#
But that's the problem, right?
#
That if the medical industry ties up with the alcohol industry.
#
Today, if you look at the degeneration caused because of the component, which is not sugar
#
Now, for example, you wear the CGM, your single malt doesn't cause you a spike, your gins
#
don't cause you a spike.
#
But with the tonic they will, right?
#
But that's anyway a non-alcoholic tonic.
#
So the point is that if the degeneration is caused by the alcohol component, if now imagine
#
tomorrow Google creates antidote to the alcohol that's settling on your liver or your fat
#
liver deposits that are happening.
#
I'll tell you what a game changer is.
#
So there's this guy, Abby Phillips, who's known on Twitter as a liver doctor.
#
He recorded with me a few days ago.
#
His episode will come out after yours, but this is not a spoiler because what I'm about
#
to tell you is something he told me after the conversation.
#
So it's not part of my conversation with him.
#
And during the conversation, he mentioned that he did the first stool transplant in
#
the world for liver disease.
#
So I asked him about it after the thing, what is a funda?
#
And the funda was he was trying to prove like the same way people say type two diabetes
#
is not reversible, even though I have reverse mind, people also say cirrhosis is not reversible.
#
And he decided to try and reverse it by basically changing the bacteria in those parts of the
#
body, whatever they are.
#
So they were bad bacteria.
#
He said, I'll do a stool transplant, introduce good bacteria, see what happens.
#
And he's published studies on this and all that.
#
So let me finish the most interesting part comes later.
#
So stool transplant to a person who had alcoholic cirrhosis, one, the cirrhosis reversed because
#
a good bacteria took over.
#
That is not incredible.
#
That's what you would expect.
#
But the incredible part is a person stopped wanting alcohol.
#
He stopped wanting alcohol because his addiction pathway or whatever the technical term is,
#
the good bacteria affected that as well.
#
And apparently what was happening was there was a feedback loop between his taking all
#
the alcohol, the bad bacteria forming and the bad bacteria wanting him to take more
#
alcohol and it became a vicious circle.
#
So my next question to Abby, which they are really still looking into is does this mean
#
that suppose cirrhosis has not happened, but the person drinks a lot.
#
Can you do a stool transplant and have him drinking less?
#
And he said that yes, that's eminently possible.
#
That seems to be the, and these guys, he's published 165 studies and all and including
#
So you know, science is incredible, you know?
#
And if you look at it, I mean, you know, when you, when you start, there was a time when
#
there was so many of these food shows coming in one, then one went down a rabbit hole.
#
And this whole thing about how the sugar industry took over and created these norms in our head
#
of what is good and what is bad to eat.
#
I mean, it has now been proven that so that he, I mean, he is now considered to be the
#
My mom has given me so many caps.
#
I said, eat yellow, only egg.
#
But the actual truth is the joke is the healthiest part of the egg.
#
Like whenever I see people having an egg white omelet, I'm like, bro, what the hell is this?
#
No, I'll tell you what I think the science of nutrition is.
#
Because people think he medical science is in the same state of advancement across domains.
#
There are parts of it where we are not that advanced, like, you know, we are not as good
#
as understanding say pancreatic cancer as we are at understanding prostate cancer.
#
You know, both of them would kill you 2000 years ago.
#
Today, one of them kills you.
#
So I think nutrition is kind of like that where we are discovering more.
#
But what we do know is that the sugar lobby funded all these studies at Harvard and elsewhere
#
in the fifties and sixties, which demonize fat and said sugar was fine.
#
The American Health Association or whatever the official body was brought out a dietary
#
And if you look at a graph of obesity in America, the graph goes up from there.
#
And do you know that the very first report they did talking about this either show, you
#
know, about what fat does to you was a study done on three people.
#
And that was a published result saying, this is a study, three people, like, I'm just the
#
three people in this room.
#
You heard about that joke, right?
#
That about the founder of KFC comes to the Pope and says, can you just replace, give
#
us this day, our daily bread for give us this day, our daily chicken, right?
#
And they said, no, no, no.
#
And he said, I'll cut a million dollar check.
#
And he said, no, no, no.
#
He said, we have to do a 10 million dollar check.
#
A hundred million dollar check.
#
So he goes back to the congregation and says, guys, you know, I've got to tell you, we've
#
got a hundred million check, which has come in.
#
Give us this day, our daily bread to give us this day, our daily chicken.
#
But we've also lost the modern bread account.
#
And I genuinely feel that the way media has manipulated minds over the years.
#
See, apart from that, as I was saying before, that sugar and salt was something that you
#
stored in the past, right?
#
And now the options of sugar and salt is so high.
#
And then they've used visual cues of saying, slicey and yes, so your need for sugar and
#
salt has been taken into like a hundred X, your body's degenerating at a regular basis.
#
And I'll put all these links on why sugar is bad and fat is perfectly fine in my show
#
notes and I'll also have you know that my HbA1c in July was 7.7.
#
It is now 5.7, reduced with purely with diet, keto plus intermittent fasting.
#
So any doctor who tells you type two diabetes cannot be reversed.
#
His knowledge is outdated and he's probably over 40 and you certainly should treat him
#
And I must tell you that diabetologists have no idea of diet.
#
It's a very broad statement.
#
Because they did, they got the medical degrees at a time where the knowledge wasn't that
#
And also the thing is that it's not in their interest to tell the patient that you shouldn't
#
If they solve that, they'll even look at the medicine.
#
And the OPD system, which is a flawed system, I think that you're spending 15 minutes with
#
You're not understanding their lifestyle.
#
You're just saying what is your HbA1c score and we are giving you medicines, right?
#
But the idea of a good diabetologist is to tell you how to prevent diabetes.
#
And that requires a lot of study on the science of diet, which is probably not covered in
#
It's purely a dietary disease and can be reversed with only diet.
#
I stopped medication on the day that I am.
#
And this happened because of CGM, continuous glucose monitor.
#
And you know, everyone should, everyone should understand their own body.
#
I mean, this is just a no brainer.
#
And everybody should know that single malt does not increase sugar.
#
The big question is what does it do to your liver, which my friend Abhi Phillips, who
#
Let them discover it then.
#
For two weeks, for two weeks, you'll finish low single malt.
#
After you listen to that episode, no more single malt for you.
#
And I must say that what you just reminded me of about this intermittent fasting was
#
one of the things that David Sinclair also spoke about.
#
Saying that we were used to eat our cycles, you know, or max 12 hours.
#
And you know, if you notice, every religion of ours, at some or the other level, is fasting.
#
Fasting is there in every religion.
#
We have left it because, you know, but you just do that.
#
And I mean, I've seen Shaheen do intermittent fasting and it's, I can just see its impact
#
You talk like this and now you're ordering food.
#
No, I'm ordering it for myself.
#
Let's, I mean, this is a big lesson and by the way, speaking on sleep, I'll also link
#
another great book from the show notes called Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker, which also
#
opened my eyes to the importance of sleeping well, which is why I fed you all the lunch
#
Whether it's a conversation or not, you'll get a good sleep.
#
So I want to ask both of you about lessons that you've learned in your life because even
#
in personal conversation, I feel like I've learned things from you, but I'll start with
#
you Vikram and I want to ask you about, you know, earlier we spoke about how in a sense
#
when you entered these cricketing circles, you were quasi part of them in the sense you
#
were a player yourself, you understood the game.
#
It's just an accident of talent that you weren't, you know, in the side with Tendulkar, but
#
You just made me feel good.
#
It is an accident of talent, agony.
#
Don't tell me you were as talented as him and didn't work hard.
#
So tell me a little bit about two kinds of lessons that I've heard you speak about.
#
One is lessons about sport itself and the other is lessons about life that you have
#
then extrapolated from those or which you felt applied to much deeper things.
#
So the life one, I'll probably cover the second part.
#
The first part, I think, let me give you a couple of examples of a few cricketers, which
#
sort of exposed my mind to what happens when you discover yourself as a sports person and
#
find your own path in your journey of becoming an international sports person.
#
And let me start with Virendra Sehwag.
#
I had the opportunity of spending a lot of time with him in his initial years and up
#
And I realized that India is full of untapped Sehwags.
#
The reason why he got tapped is because he understood himself.
#
And I remember that interview that Ravi Shastri was doing in Sri Lanka and I was hovering
#
around there and Ravi Shastri tried to complicate Sehwag's mind by asking him technical questions
#
in English in the post-match interview, which he was doing his initial years.
#
And he said, Sehwag, the ball was coming on to the back, not much grass on it.
#
Whatever little grass is basically dead grass rolled on to keep the wicket together.
#
How did you gauge the bounce of the wicket?
#
And that was a fabulous innings.
#
And when he said this, I said, yeah, this guy is special because he did not complicate
#
the answer and he did not complicate his cricket.
#
And that's when I went to him and said, what are you thinking about?
#
He said, Sir, let me tell you a couple of things that I learned and that is that no matter
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how simple the game is, it is the ultimate goal of life.
#
So I said, explain it to me.
#
He said, the thing is that when I came to cricket, I came to be a Tendulkar.
#
And the biggest lesson of my life was that when I understood that I have to find my inner
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Sehwag, I don't want to be a Tendulkar, because I was going to be a Tendulkar and it was not
#
happening because Tendulkar's benchmark was very high and I was trying to do this around
#
So I thought that until I find the player inside me, and that time I talked to John
#
Wright, I talked to Tendulkar and I started to prefer the opening slot.
#
Because I knew that the game can change only when you dominate in the first 10 overs.
#
And see what a revolutionary idea that is, right?
#
You look at the modern day T20 cricket, you're talking of the power play.
#
The reason England won the T20 World Cup is because of Butler and Hales up the order.
#
And the reason we did not win it, because your best two batters on top of the game were
#
So he explained to me that how this was a thought which he backed himself to do under
#
the guidance of John Wright.
#
And there was this very funny story that he said that sometimes he said that there are
#
two types of players who do over analysis and those who are like me, who have more faith
#
He said, we were sitting in Sri Lanka and cracking Murali Tharan.
#
So Sachin Paji came and said, if you see the thumb of Murali Tharan, then you can play
#
Because if the thumb comes up, it means that his arm has turned and it means that he will
#
So Rahul Bhai said yes, he is correct, he played his video on video, yes Sachin, you
#
are absolutely right, we have got to pick the thumb.
#
Laxman is saying that yes, this is very good.
#
I said to Paji, I can't see anything, Murali black, thumb black, I didn't see anything.
#
He genuinely said it, he said, but I have decided that I don't think like Dravid Tendulkar,
#
so I will use my methodology to tackle Murali Tharan.
#
So he said, what did I do?
#
I said, I played with the mind of Murali Tharan, I decided that whatever Murali Tharan will
#
put, first I will play it off in 8 balls.
#
As I will back myself and play it off, Murali Tharan will feel that I am holding on to his
#
mind and he will change his trajectory and he will get the normal off spin, and Sathe
#
sir, you know, off spinner is not a bowler for me.
#
But look at the method in the madness and that is what Rahul Dravid explained to me
#
that you have to understand that non-conventional people find easier solutions, but that won't
#
I and Sachin would always look deeper into the problem, but to ensure that he doesn't
#
emulate a Tendulkar and get over analytical and put himself under pressure, he found a
#
solution which worked for him.
#
And I thought that was a great lesson that I learned for him that at the end of the day,
#
you may study whatever you study, understand, you read books, but when you have to solve
#
a certain problem, you take everything around you and then you solve it your way.
#
And I thought that was a great lesson and today, many a times when you look at new players
#
like Suryakumar Yadav, you look at David Warner in his own way, you look at Joss Butler, you
#
will see a methodology of finding themselves.
#
Even like David Warner publicly says that for me, Veeru's suggestion of going up the
#
order and finding myself actually changed my cricket.
#
So that is one lesson I learned from somebody like Avarinda Sehwag.
#
Very interesting lesson I learned from Ricky Ponting and I think this is something that
#
Roshan will resonate with as well, because it's about perspective.
#
I was in conversation with Ponting, we were doing like a seven city tour with ING Bank
#
and I asked Ricky Ponting that, you know, I played a little bit of under 19 cricket
#
And we never found gaps when you are a batsman, you play by instinct.
#
If it goes in a gap, you take a single or you just whatever you don't take a single.
#
So he said that this is where the growth of a batsman happens.
#
And I said, explain it to me, how does it happen?
#
So he said, in the initial years of my batting, when I came into bat, I would look at the
#
fielders and I would have these fielders in my subconscious.
#
And that would give me a framework based on how I'm going to react.
#
Because at the time the ball is coming at 140, you are just backing what you have learned
#
But your subconscious graph that you have will give you a sense of where the ball will
#
He said, over a period of time, I started realizing that my gaps were going down.
#
And I thought to myself, what was the problem?
#
And one day dawned to me that I needed to change my reference point.
#
So I said, what is the reference point?
#
And that one sentence I thought was the most outstanding statement said by somebody said
#
a good batsman imprints the fielders in the subconscious.
#
A great batsman imprints the gaps.
#
The moment that reference points had become the gaps, he said, I started finding the gaps
#
And I remember sharing this story in a Bajaj auto show and Rajeev Bajaj came up to me and
#
said that become this is the most profound thing I've learned in business.
#
When you look at competition, you behave like the competition.
#
If you look at the need gaps of the market, you create a great product.
#
I have a before you resume, I have a story which this reminded me of.
#
So around the time of the Second World War, there were a bunch of experts, I think, in
#
the American party or the allied forces that put together a bunch of experts, which was
#
so unique that I think at one point they said that Milton Friedman had only there been in
#
a room where there were two people smarter than him, that kind of company.
#
And one of those guys was a guy called Abraham Wald.
#
Now, Abraham Wald was given a problem that a lot of our planes are coming back from the
#
war and we are losing a lot of planes.
#
But can you look at the planes that are coming back and figure out why we are losing them?
#
Where are the bullet holes and what's happening?
#
So he looked, okay, there are so many bullet holes in the wings, there are so many bullet
#
holes in the fuselage, the nose has so many bullet holes.
#
What are the problem areas?
#
Where do we need to put armor?
#
The engine had no bullet holes.
#
So everybody is like, let's do the wings, let's do the fuselage.
#
And Wald said, no, do the engine.
#
And they said, why engine?
#
There are no bullet holes there.
#
So he said, obviously there are no bullet holes there.
#
That means that every time a bullet hits the engine, the plane is going down.
#
So none of them are coming back, which is also a way of sort of looking at the gaps,
#
Not thinking in the way that others do.
#
And I have seen this pattern in all great plays that they see gaps and whereas others
#
see other reference points.
#
And so during this journey, talking to a pointing like, you know, the other great story that
#
I heard from Glenn McGraw, and he's written it in his book as well.
#
And many people talk about visualization.
#
And that's where again, the longevity factor also come into play that.
#
And that comes from yoga also, that a good yoga teacher, which normally doesn't happen,
#
you don't find a yoga teacher, good yoga teacher easily, they'll, they'll focus on the flexibility.
#
But very few people will tell you that in the Shavasana process, you actually have to
#
leave your breath from every part of your body.
#
So when you are leaving your breath during Shavasana, my yoga teacher would tell me now
#
focus on the artery where the blood is flowing from and now breathe out from there, which
#
is the weakest organ you think of your body, leave your breath from there.
#
So what essentially they're saying is about the act of visualization, which is huge in
#
That Sachin Tendulkar jokingly used to say that many people talk about me not being able
#
to sleep before a match.
#
He said that when I visualize a game, what happens in when I'm sleeping, that game is
#
So I can't sleep, not because I have insomnia, it's because the next days I am visualizing
#
three slips and a Gully McGraw bowling at 140.
#
That's why I can't sleep.
#
But that also helps me prepare better in the next game.
#
And this amazing story about Michael Phelps about visualization, which is one of my favorite
#
stories is every big session of Michael Phelps.
#
And this is a mixture between visualization and purposeful practice.
#
As you would know, purposeful practice essentially means that you start practicing under pressure,
#
you do the difficult things.
#
So the great Alex Ferguson had said that many people ask me that, you know, why does man
#
you score the best goals in the last 10 minutes, because he said we practice for it.
#
After every session, I make sure the last 10 minutes, I would tell a Ryan Giggs or a
#
David Beckham, you've got five minutes to go, you've got to score a goal.
#
Only when you practice this high pressure situations, you see it in the match.
#
Whereas for the person who's watching, are you are you look solid patch minute?
#
But by his practice, so I forget his name, it is Bob Bomer, who used to be the coach
#
He would last 10 minutes, tell Michael Phelps to swim in the dark.
#
He would shut all the lights in the stadium and he said, now you swim for half an hour
#
or whatever in the dark and Phelps used to hate that, you know, because it's to be disorienting.
#
But what Bower was trying to do is to get Phelps a sense of how big the pool is without
#
And that would train his instinct to understand the pool without actually knowing anything
#
It would give him a sense of how the pool works.
#
And imagine Sydney Olympics, the 8th Olympic medal.
#
He was disoriented in that particular race.
#
His goggles were full of water and he did the last 50 or 70 meters or whatever without
#
seeing any big got the gold medal.
#
So for me, this is a fabulous story of purposeful practice or for that matter, visualization,
#
where you actually have lived that moment a hundred times.
#
But for the audience for it is like, oh, he couldn't see it, but he won.
#
And I think Nasir Hussain had said a very interesting story.
#
He said that visualization for me was so important that in the ashes, I would even visualize what
#
Hayden was sledging to me so that I won't be surprised in the morning.
#
And so, yeah, these were these small, small lessons that you keep on learning and every
#
day there's a new lesson.
#
For more kindly hire Vikram Sathe, motivational speaker on cricket, philosophy and birth.
#
Sir, I feel that by telling him the story, Nasir Hussain is trolling the corporates of
#
Because he knows that he will get it.
#
And people will analyze in Procter and Gamble how to do it.
#
This boss is not going to kill me during the appraisal.
#
Visualize this and the whole thing will be completed.
#
And when you're talking about life lessons or whatever, and I was listening to Sathe
#
and I was quickly going through some of my notes, my note taking thing or whatever.
#
And I genuinely feel that frankly, if you look back, there are some lessons that stay
#
with you and then every day there are new lessons that you find, right?
#
I mean, there's a film called The Swimmers.
#
I don't know whether you've seen it.
#
Real life story to Syrian girls whose father was swimming for Syria and then couldn't
#
qualify and put these girls through and then suddenly the Syrian, you know, the crisis
#
happens in Syria and the girls have to go and become refugees and whatever.
#
And you know, the film has a motto.
#
I don't want to tell people about the more about the film because you must watch it.
#
And it says stay in your lane, you know, and swim the race.
#
So it was, you know, the most important thing is the lack of focus, which is just keep your
#
eye on the thing and keep going or whatever.
#
And you'll see how remarkably it comes out in the film or whatever, you know, and I just
#
found this to be, I just found everything about that film to be so beautiful.
#
And then, you know me, I go down rapid holes, I started following both the girls whose lives
#
it was connected with one thing, will you come to smoke and pass?
#
Well, I'll definitely get someone of that caliber.
#
I was hoping so that, you know, we get some international stories as well next time.
#
You know, this was something that stayed, which is currently trending on Netflix.
#
It's a Bihar cop story.
#
It's about the Amit Lodha, you know, book on, you know, killing the biggest criminal of
#
that time and caste politics and everything else, which is going on.
#
And in the beginning, they were traveling in a train, it's the first time he's going
#
There's an old couple sitting in front of him.
#
And the guy turns and says, why are you going to Bihar?
#
He says, who goes to work in Bihar?
#
And the old man turns and says, sir, if you're going to work there, because he's an IPS
#
officer, he says, you can do two things in life from Bihar.
#
He says, either you can earn a lot of money, or you can earn a lot of fame and respect.
#
Now you have to decide what you want to earn.
#
And you know, one very old Jeep ad used to have this Jeep on the top of a cliff.
#
And I don't know where they were trying to make that correlation or whatever, because
#
this whole thing about spirit and blah, blah, blah.
#
But below that was that line, which I often quote saying, do not mistake your net worth
#
And this constant thing nowadays, this constant following of these success metrics that are
#
so obsessive, somehow I find, and I think Vikram and I and a whole bunch of our friends
#
resonate on the fact that it is not our primary driver.
#
I think our primary driver is a lot more about just enriching life, doing things to a very
#
One beautiful lesson that I had in life was Javed Sahib, we were going to record a song
#
for Colgate and we were crossing the Juhu flyover to go to the highway and then we had
#
to go to Film City to shoot.
#
My son had just been born and I was very excited and I turned to him and I said that Javed Sahib,
#
my son, I really want him to read and I really want him to study and you know, he should
#
have the right upbringing.
#
Ikhlaq hone chahiye achche, jitni mujhe urdu aati thi main puri use kar raha tha.
#
And you know, Javed Sahib just turned and said, aap jahate hain wo padhe, padhe hain, aap jahate
#
hain wo achchi baathe kare, achchi baathe kare hain, kata bache shisha hote hain, jo
#
dekhte hain, ussi ko reflect karte hain.
#
And then he gave me multiple examples from Bollywood of people, he said, you know, that
#
people who did things and how it reflects and I genuinely find that, that, you know,
#
do not say do, and I love you guys as a bias for action, I keep saying this, karo yaar,
#
agar duniya mein kis cheez ko ek cheez khalti hain, to usko badalne ke liye kuch karo, agar
#
koi cheez hai jo fulfill karna hai to, karo to, page one to uska complete karo, page, don't
#
keep it just stuck in your mind, that's one thing for sure that I keep telling people.
#
And across all the people, I mean, you know, Bachchan saab was one of the first people
#
I said I did the interview with, then I did another interview, I worked with him on one
#
or two other projects and whatever.
#
Even today, everyone, there are a hundred stories about Mr. Bachchan, good, bad, all
#
kinds, but his punctuality, someone everybody will even today talk of.
#
Because ek work epic hain, there are so many times that I end up going to functions and
#
stuff and I reach on the given appointed time and I'm the earliest person in the place and
#
I've been rated by everyone around saying, kyun karthe ho, kyun jaate ho.
#
But I just find that keeping a good work ethic and a professional work ethic is a very important
#
thing that somewhere in this jugad, shortcuts, let me tell you five life hacks to do the
#
following, nahin, the simplest hack in the world is put in the work.
#
Just put in the work, keep putting in the work and it will ultimately, you know, bear
#
fruit to that, whatever, and it's an important thing, I think, for people to do.
#
The other thing that I have actually now started and I think a lot of it is actually realization
#
is Angad Daryani is this boy who I, we were doing something for DRGO and we had to get
#
a bunch of, so we do a couple of these culture immersion.
#
So we wanted people from various fields, so Masaba came and spoke about fashion, then
#
we had Ankur coming and talking about music and from Gully Boy to Gehraiya, I mean, look
#
at the diversity of those two albums and how he did it, right, fabulous.
#
We had agenda activists who came in called Durga, amazing again, great conversation.
#
And then we had this boy Angad Daryani, all of 20 something and whatever.
#
And Angad has set up a company called Pran and they are actually building these large
#
format filters which, sorry, they are actually taking carbon from the atmosphere and in a
#
filterless technology because his logic was that even creating the filter, one of the
#
biggest polluting processes is creating the filter which absorbs the carbon.
#
So why can you not have a filterless process which is built?
#
A very interesting model where you don't have to pay for the machine, you pay per person
#
per month, et cetera and stuff, now being adopted by the Tata's, just today the government
#
has taken up a lot of this.
#
And then all brands wanted to know about the metaverse and what's going to happen and
#
So I turned to Angad, what about the metaverse?
#
He says, let's first save the universe, then let's think of the metaverse.
#
I genuinely felt that this generation, as I say, this generation unafraid, doers, really
#
putting themselves out there.
#
And he said it is just a simple way that it was that I just carried on that conversation
#
It was a beautiful emotion of knowing how they're doing it, why he's doing it.
#
And today, like two days later, I said, is there any way I can help you?
#
I'm now invested in the company, very, very small, minuscule amount.
#
But I'm invested in him and that idea because that idea for me is a world changing idea.
#
All world changing ideas will not be yours.
#
You don't need them to be.
#
But if there is somebody else doing that, you can either get out of the way or you can
#
actually push them along the way or help them along the way.
#
And I genuinely feel that that is so important to do in a hyper-connected world, when nobody
#
You know, when we wanted to get spoken, everybody said, I once wrote to JK Rowling, she replied.
#
She said, listen, currently I'm not available, but I do want to come to India, great.
#
This thing about wishful thinking, you want to learn a hundred new things, you want to,
#
Prasoon said something very nice at a conference that we attended.
#
He says, this generation, the device that you have given, in which you can do everything,
#
you can create whatever you want.
#
And he gave an example of a mixtape.
#
He says, you know, many of us grew up as the mixtape generation, right?
#
I used to earn money in college by recording mixtapes with voiceovers in between, and shero
#
shairi and poetry, I used to write, I made a lot of money in that.
#
Everybody was lovable and it was a taste for everyone.
#
In that conversation, he said, you know, we used to measure the exact amount of time in
#
There would be a calculation you would do of saying this song is eight minutes long,
#
this is six minutes long, if we combine six and five and seven, then dot 45 will come.
#
And you would do that permutation combination and then do that recording.
#
But importance of choice and curation was so much that you curated that, you took the
#
effort and that effort made you value that object.
#
Limitless choice is killing that to a certain degree.
#
When Spotify Unwrapped came out, there was a huge thing, everybody posted Unwrapped.
#
And then a bunch of people posted what they said Unwrapped did not come.
#
We just said, what about natural selection?
#
What about just going and finding something unique?
#
What about discovering something?
#
And I'm trying to do a festival around this in February next year, building around this
#
But I just think that it is important and what Prasoon was saying was limitless choice
#
and the option of limitless creation.
#
He says, there should be a pause button next to the record button so that you don't put
#
up everything you think.
#
I'm a little scared of the amount of problem solvers that are available on your feed of
#
Every well-talking, semi-good-looking person is a friend, philosopher, guide making money
#
when they really don't have knowledge as a base sometimes.
#
So somewhere I think that this mass consumption, mass creation is both a solution and a problem
#
But I really feel that the world needs a lot more of curation at that level as well.
#
And before you record, before you write, press that pause button and think for a bit is an
#
So I have a couple of questions based on that before we go back to cricket lessons and life
#
lessons from Vikram, which is number one, of course, it's a great advantage that the
#
youth of today have the world at their fingertips.
#
Like I was just in the break, I was telling Vikram about Robert Sapolsky's great biology
#
lectures on YouTube and how we never had anything like that at our disposal in the 80s when
#
we were in school and college.
#
But the flip side is that the mode of how you experience a world has become much quicker
#
and you're always swiping, swiping, scrolling, scrolling.
#
It's in a sense made for short attention spans, which I know, of course, is a cliché and
#
people do listen to my seven hour episodes, so it's not all that.
#
But a lot of how we experience the world is in little slivers without really going deep.
#
Like Jonathan Haidt once spoke about how despite having all of knowledge available to us, all
#
of us are consuming something that was produced in the last three days, except those listening
#
to this episode because we are recording at the start of December and it's releasing
#
But you get what I'm saying.
#
So one, there is that because as a creator, I have, you know, in the past written about
#
how the form of what you're doing changes the content, changes the character.
#
So because I do five hour episodes or whatever, I have to listen better.
#
I have to keep my ego out of it because I'm now listening, not to respond, but to understand
#
that makes me a better listener.
#
That makes me more empathetic and it makes me a different person.
#
If I was doing five, five minute episodes, it would be very different, but that's as
#
But even as a consumer, I think that applies that if every time I was itchy and instead
#
of reaching for a smartphone, I picked up a book and I read that for an hour instead
#
of scrolling through Twitter and Facebook and whatever for an hour, I think I would
#
fundamentally be a different person.
#
So that is sort of one question about where the youth of today do have something tremendous
#
at their disposal, all the knowledge and wisdom of the world.
#
They're also going from immediate gratification to immediate gratification, one dopamine hit
#
And the other thing is earlier when you were talking about the youth, Roshan, you mentioned
#
about how the kids of today are evolved in different ways and all of that.
#
And I wonder if there's some selection bias in that which has to do with essentially interacting
#
with a certain kind of English speaking elite in a big city because India is full of multitudes
#
And these are multitudes who are really responding to incentives and algorithms in the sense
#
that if today a 15 year old child gets a video that this has happened in Bihar and a cow
#
has been mistreated or there's an attack on a temple and he sees one video like that,
#
then the algorithm will make sure he sees more and more like that till everything he
#
is getting is from there.
#
And the odd thing that he might hear from somewhere else seems to him to be completely
#
He must be anti-national.
#
What are you talking about?
#
And then they get drawn into those echo chambers and those are possibly people that we would
#
Now both of you have traveled much more than me and you've actively worked with young
#
people beyond, you know, whatever little urban conclaves there might be.
#
So it's like these two questions in one really that what is your sense of how the quality
#
and texture of our lives is being affected by this?
#
Because I certainly think that if I like sure in the childhood, it's I didn't have all the
#
knowledge in the world available to me, but instead of reading all the books I did, if
#
I was scrolling on Twitter and install all the time, I think I would be a different person.
#
And therefore, I think this generation could be a different generation, not just in terms
#
No, so I think I think the fear that oh my God, the algorithm is going to take you down
#
You know, I also feel that very often our generation consumes without putting too many
#
The younger lot, I must tell you the way they disguise their identity, their IPs, the way
#
they shift across platforms, the way they will use a new browser against something else
#
because they realize this is a cleaner browser, they are very aware of that identity.
#
Do they still get sucked in?
#
I think the WhatsApp university is where they actually get sucked in.
#
But I feel these are the well educated young people you run into.
#
You know, outside this bubble, it might not quite be like that.
#
So that's what I'm saying.
#
The example I gave you of that child who was on the train who turned and said this is my
#
browser, this is my parent's browser.
#
He is aware that if he is watching X or whatever, this might throw up something else.
#
The person in the BNC town right now, I mean, there's an amazing study that we're currently
#
looking at, which said that this is a generation of vertical invaders.
#
They are people who are going to, they don't want to stop for anything on the way.
#
There is no, if this ladder is taking me too long, I'll find a new ladder.
#
I may not take a ladder.
#
I might find a pole vault and I'll figure my own way up there.
#
So I think they're making their own rules, they're doing it their own way.
#
Definitely yes, there is the WhatsApp part is what I'm scared of because I find that
#
to be too controlled and manipulated.
#
Twitter is really not their medium.
#
I mean, the younger lot, I don't find Twitter to be their medium at all.
#
Their largest consumption actually currently is on either viewing where they are viewing
#
So therefore they're seeing long form content.
#
So while there's the real short form content and stuff, and when I see the smaller Indian
#
TikTok look alike, I genuinely find them to be poor cousins at the moment because what
#
that is doing is next level.
#
And there, again, the choices I see young people make, and I'm now talking other geographies
#
as well because I travel globally as well and I interact with young people there.
#
And many of them are making choices that are very different.
#
I mean, the kindest, I saw a lot of activism happening in the Middle East, which girls
#
were doing online in smaller groups that they were building.
#
What's happening in Iran, for example.
#
I mean, see today they're saying they're pulling out morality police in its entirety.
#
I mean, a week before they were saying 30,000 people will be killed, you know, and it's
#
that that I think these people are aware, yes, yes, there is a propensity to, but I
#
think the propensity to question is a lot more.
#
You know, the uncle is a believer beyond whatever, you know, the WhatsApp uncle is ye hi sach
#
But I think the younger lot have a lot more of this questioning ability, and I would grant
#
Plus, their peer groups have got, yeah, I mean, what Nikhil said again, I thought was
#
that, oh, very often in the in the loneliness of the person, they will find these people
#
because at least they feel that they find a group.
#
But I assure you that even today, universities, colleges across the country, that the discussion
#
which even you used to have in colleges are still alive.
#
Yeah, they may get colored by a lot of this falsified information, tumne ye dekha, tumne
#
wo suna, but at least there are still enough viewpoints that exist.
#
Itna nahi ho gaya hai ki everybody is just thinking one particular way.
#
What we must acknowledge is what many of your episodes have acknowledged that we have been
#
sitting in this little belief that we are a socialist, equality, egalitarian, blah, blah,
#
Nahi hai yaar, sach mein nahi hai.
#
And when you discover that, it's a very bitter pill to swallow, particularly for someone
#
from Lucknow, because I mean, you know, wo Ganga Jamuni Tahzeeb wo language ka, you know,
#
that evolution of a language, which is actually everyone's language today.
#
A friend of ours, a common friend of Sathe and I, was asked to write a song for one national
#
initiative and then was told to ask to remove Urdu words.
#
And so isko Hindi aur banayiye.
#
And he was so upset, he says kaise mana sakta hu, iss shabd ka translation nahi exist karta
#
Toh aisi bhi cheeze ho rahi hai, par uske reaction mein, bahot saare aise log hai, jo ki ground
#
level pe hazaaro aise cheeze kar rahe hain, and mujhe lagta hai ki wo pehel ho rahi hai.
#
Chahe wo Josh Talks ki apne level par kar rahe hain, wo aapta kar rahe hain.
#
They are building their, it is their TED equivalent, but it is Josh Talks and it's in Hindi, and
#
it exists and it's giving you that India.
#
You know, there is Lallantop, I mean, again, I'm saying all of these things, yeh, sabh
#
is there, TVF, yes, for all that they've been through or whatever, the narratives that
#
Ik hai wo Hindustan pe.
#
Aur mujhe abhi us Hindustan pe bahot yaki hai.
#
And us Hindustan pe cricket bhi hai.
#
Let's go back to cricket lessons.
#
I think this was a very interesting conversation.
#
I don't have any experience with the young people in terms of what you have.
#
But to me, I put it in two buckets.
#
One is knowledge in terms of knowledge exposures.
#
As you said, Amit, what they are learning from across domains, you and me would never
#
have got that exposure.
#
We just did it later on and we evolved into that.
#
My worry more is on the psychological aspect of it.
#
That's when the BCD town cities come into play, that what is the impact on that young
#
girl who's watching the affluent Alia Bhatt of the world, putting out content.
#
And many of my child psychologist friends tell me that we, every time we meet a young
#
girl who is, who has a mental health issue, we know that it's Instagram.
#
To me, I am worried, I'm not worried about knowledge.
#
And obviously the fact that, you know, in the scrolling, are you deep diving into the
#
subject and are you exploring that subject in totality is something I'm a little worried
#
But I, people who are interested will still carry on and do it.
#
But I'm really worried on the psychological aspect because you see that on a daily basis
#
and you don't want an intelligent person who has a very little emotional quotient.
#
And that combination is actually very dicey because the guy is too smart in his work,
#
but unfortunately he's not sorted here.
#
And if he sorted in at the EQ level, his output at a knowledge level will also increase.
#
And how that balance plays out is something I'm not really sure.
#
I'll just add to that or whatever, because, you know, I'll tell you pre pandemic, I used
#
to come across a lot of people and one line which you used to use it commonly very often
#
was that we know in a hyper-connected world, we are so deeply disconnected internally,
#
you know, and the fact is that you're so, your social dyslexics was in fact something
#
that I used to turn and keep talking of saying, because I met a boy who used to blog beautifully,
#
write beautifully and when he came in person, he couldn't even talk with his eyes.
#
And I thought that ultimately schools, colleges were a lot more about social behavior and
#
understanding how to be around people.
#
And a lot of these people ultimately don't have that ability or whatever.
#
The pandemic I think actually put a lens to even young people to realize a lot of this.
#
The behavior that we are seeing, and I'm going to talk of a completely different world, you
#
know, in the concert and going out space, we were very worried that, oh, this behavior
#
has changed, people will want to do everything virtual or whatever, complete rubbish.
#
People are spending five X of what they were spending before, but they are a lot more conscious
#
Earlier, they would have gone and said, come on, let's try 10 things.
#
Experimentation has become a little less, the genre definition has become very strong.
#
I want to listen to independent music, I will go.
#
I want to listen to Daler Mehendi, I will listen to Daler Mehendi, I want to listen to Mikka,
#
I will listen to Mikka, I will listen to Arjeet, I will listen to Arjeet.
#
I will vote with my wallet.
#
And they are doing that and doing a lot more of that.
#
In fact, it's an underserviced market, I believe, and people are really stepping out because
#
now they know, okay, this, this, they are lonely, yes, but now they realize it also
#
and I think that they are trying to do enough and more things.
#
Frankly, there should be a lot more things in that space for them to interact.
#
The one thing that people are not being able to handle is the empowerment of women.
#
Women, you know, have changed, that entire gender is a lot more aware, they have a lot
#
more opportunities and they're using them.
#
And that is creating a certain amount of problems where the coding of that middle class, patriarchal
#
coding or whatever, I mean, Nikhil's episodes has a lot of this, Maima's episode talks
#
a lot of this, so we don't need to go into it in depth.
#
But that is where I still believe that there's a lot of friction and people, they just don't
#
know what to handle because the other definition which I really resonated with what Nikhil
#
had said, that if you want to do everything, then why do I have that choice?
#
Why do I only need to do engineering?
#
I don't remember that whole bit which was there, it was a lovely bit saying that, boss,
#
you told me to make these choices because you were safe bets for earning, but now you're
#
also earning, so why can't I make crazy killer bets or whatever.
#
The other thing I must tell you is that YouTube as the university for learning is a crazy
#
The boy who works with me, Siddhartha Garbar, his family is in Nainital.
#
He has learned everything on YouTube.
#
His brother is the programming guy for Arjeet Singh.
#
Learned music on YouTube, not done a formal course, but learned everything there.
#
So for those who really want to learn, I think that this thing about the availability of
#
Now what is the use of it?
#
And I have the same problem here that this thing of becoming, you know, laddites or lotus
#
eaters to a certain degree, sitting, listening, doing, not doing.
#
And the first time I had gone to Kashmir, just after mass communication, I met one or two
#
people who are very well known in the intellectual circles or whatever, over tea.
#
And every evening I felt that this world will change tomorrow morning, but it didn't come
#
Then the next day there was the same discussion, then the next day it was groundhog day.
#
They were just stuck in that cycle.
#
And that's the only place where I believe that if there's over consumption and you're
#
just consuming and not acting, doing things, that's the only thing that really worries
#
But I have loads of faith in this generation.
#
Of course, there's always friction.
#
Wasn't there friction when you were in college, I came in from Lucknow and came to Delhi.
#
And suddenly, you know, I'm standing in, there's an SFI guy saying politics, decide your life,
#
But I don't want to decide any politics.
#
And as long as that spirit of experimentation is alive, there's there's hope.
#
And if this world doesn't exist, there's always Elon Musk and Mars.
#
And then also, I think it might be a little bit of, you know, nostalgia also, ki humare
#
zamane bhi most people were doing nothing.
#
You know, it was a few people who would take the initiative and do shit and most people
#
At least this is zaman mein log consume toh kar rahe hain.
#
Haan, yeh zaman mein kuch toh hai, kuch toh chance hai.
#
But, you know, humare paas sirf mujhe aata hai ki, you know, people turn to say, aapne
#
I say, bacha humare time pe toh college ke maan theater tha hai, ya cricket hota tha.
#
Hum sports water tha hai, toh theater karthe hai.
#
Hum jaiche gatte hai, humare liye wo tha, humare entertainment, humare pool bhi wo tha,
#
humare bowling bhi wo tha, humare video game arcade bhi wo tha, hum sab kuch hoi karthe
#
Isi liye physical activity hone ke karan endorphins bhi achche the, isliye wo aspect
#
jo hai, abhi probably 20, 50, 100 years later, inko yahan se bhi endorphin aana shuru karega,
#
technology se pata nahi humko.
#
But now this new creature that we have, we have, who's born on the internet or born on
#
this device, how is his or hers physical development will take place is I think a big challenge
#
because when you spend eight, eight hours on the phone, what changes will that, that
#
human body have over the next 20 years is going to be a tricky one while you want to
#
increase the lifespan to 130 years.
#
But you've played cricket, you've gone out, you've trekked, but imagine a generation which
#
is not doing all of that.
#
And as you say, you want everybody to do something.
#
How will that impact, impact their physical health is also a challenge.
#
So recently there was like this, when Ronaldo gave his infamous interview, spoiled brat,
#
useless Ronaldo, who's a liability to every team he's part of, gave his interview.
#
He was complaining about the young people in the team and saying ki, yaar humare zaman
#
mein hum itna kaam karte the, itna training karte hai and kind of saying that their whole
#
lifestyle was completely different.
#
And I've heard this in a cricketing context from some Australian player, I forget who
#
you must be knowing this and must have seen it firsthand, ki, you know, all the young
#
players are now playing video games and consoles and their interests are completely different.
#
The ways they bond with each other is completely different.
#
So do you see that in these sports also?
#
I think what Ronaldo's point was, they aren't hungry, they don't, you know, for us it is
#
The young people are just not hungry, they go through the motions, which is absolutely
#
You know, he's a lazy bum who sits in the box and waits for the ball.
#
The rest of them are pressing.
#
But apart from that, just as a general comment, I mean, I would like to say that in the urban
#
setup, maybe, okay, because, but as we discussed earlier, the guys who want to prove something
#
and they fire in them, they will not show such signs.
#
But yes, I mean, video games and all this normal for players, even Dhoni's generation,
#
they went inside, they played FIFA and stuff like that, but I don't think, you know, the
#
incentives for the younger guys is pretty interesting.
#
And I've seen that in the evolution of Hardik Pandya, for example.
#
I mean, you look at a Hardik Pandya and I remember him seeing years back in Baroda.
#
Look at his transformation and that's what exposure can do, right?
#
Today is the captain of Lucknow, this thing he's, he's led the team beautifully because
#
native intelligence is a lot in these guys, if he gets the channel, then his intelligence
#
is much ahead of urban intelligence.
#
So the hunger definitely is there.
#
I don't know what Ronaldo is talking about because Europe is a different ball game.
#
No one does work in Europe right now.
#
So maybe in his context, he might be right that, you know, I was watching a test match
#
in Nottingham years back and there was this English teacher sitting next to me and we
#
were talking and I said, what's happening in education and what do you teach and he
#
was teaching in a school in Nottingham said, what, like, how do you communicate with the
#
He said, Vikram, the biggest communication I have to do with young children in Britain
#
is to tell them that you have to work for a living.
#
No, you have to understand.
#
He's seen his dad in front of the television with his beer in hand.
#
He's seen his grandfather do the same.
#
Now there is a teacher like me who's telling them, brother, you have to work because otherwise
#
you won't get any salary or you won't get that telly life that your father's.
#
So he's saying that the challenge is different in Europe.
#
But in our case, it's not that this might become in pockets in urban India.
#
But it's amazing how material wealth also drives many of these in a good way.
#
So it's, uh, he went through his, Hey, do you face also with coffee, but you know, I'll
#
tell you what that is still there, but the evolution and understanding that boss next
#
time when I'm going to coffee with current, I don't think it's hard to find a spot.
#
So the thing is that you are a 24, 25-year-old boy.
#
I'm at a great time with this chick, man.
#
Same Anna had a good, good time with this girl that night.
#
The thing is that can totally India below the at the work down market.
#
I think the current your dynamics was that he understood it.
#
and see what his journey is going to come out of a back injury and be playing the way he does is amazing.
#
I mean, and work ethics again, you spoke about work ethics, right?
#
I think some of these guys just are amazing.
#
Their work ethics, the priorities at E20 cricket, what can you do about it?
#
I mean, that is because of the economic set play.
#
You suddenly make more.
#
I mean, it's a very simple problem to solve.
#
I always tell anybody from BCCI that make marquee test tournaments and pay Cheteshwar Pujara 20 crore rupees.
#
Hardik Pandey will also start playing test cricket.
#
The problem is you have to change your incentives according.
#
I actually think that, you know, Hardik's injury was unfortunate
#
because he was at that time in the test team as a number six.
#
I think he'll be a great test player.
#
I don't think he needs to do anything differently.
#
But, Ramit, the problem is that he wants to prioritize it to T20 cricket
#
because now you, a player knows that boss, I have six to eight years.
#
He's my thinking, right?
#
Six to eight years, you keep more ROI and I don't blame him.
#
Sir, he should meet with Roshan and hear this 120 years funda.
#
Then brother will play test cricket so much because there is a lot of time.
#
But, you know, I wouldn't make a value judgment there.
#
There are separate sports where he's decided to excel in one.
#
And there is only one thing about this, boss.
#
You, like Europe has cracked that,
#
that boss, we have to keep Opera alive.
#
We have to keep their Parallel Theatre alive.
#
They will get a show, they will get 100 shows.
#
Their funding should be stated.
#
State's work, art, culture, ministry has only one job.
#
The culture that is dying, keep giving it money.
#
Rest, you don't have to do anything.
#
Once you have empowered 40 directors of Parallel Theatre
#
and told them that I will fund one play of yours every year.
#
Those 40 plays will be made and people will come to see.
#
But the problem is that they don't solve the capex.
#
And they don't solve their livelihood.
#
State should not make plays, but they should just fund a dying art.
#
And that's what is happening is that BCCI has 5 billion dollars in the bank.
#
They have just to create marquee test matches.
#
And the guys who are playing test cricket have to be paid equal to IPL.
#
And you have the money.
#
It's not that you have to get the money.
#
You say that Pujara, you will play this thing,
#
but you will get your 10 crores, which you are missing out on IPL.
#
Unless you incentivize test cricket, why will Hardik Pandya play test cricket?
#
Yeah, but my question is that you're making an implicit value judgment here
#
by saying that test cricket is superior to T20.
#
So you should incentivize it.
#
I'm just saying that three forms are very high.
#
This is my personal opinion.
#
I'm saying there should be two.
#
There should be two forms of cricket.
#
One you keep Bollywood music, which is T20 cricket,
#
which is a great format everybody enjoys.
#
One you keep as whatever.
#
As we discussed in this thing, there is chess which can't go to 8 billion people.
#
So there are good art forms which have to be kept.
#
But chess has to become viable.
#
And you have an organization which can make test cricket viable.
#
What I would say is that first of all, chess chess as it happens is...
#
And one day cricket will be finished.
#
Yeah, no, first of all, what I would say is that chess chess,
#
like actual chess, not in this metaphor, is viable today.
#
Yeah, I'm sorry, bad example.
#
Yeah, but number two, what I would say is that no, I disagree with you.
#
I don't think T20 is Bollywood music.
#
I think T20 and test cricket are different sports in the same way.
#
Badminton and TT are separate sports.
#
Badminton and tennis are separate sports.
#
There is something similar that there is racket, net.
#
They are hitting from there, from above.
#
But they are actually separate sports.
#
I will not make a value judgment and say that one is mass and one is class.
#
I'm perfectly happy with the BCCI keeping test cricket alive.
#
I mean, T20s are basically subsidizing test cricket.
#
I'm happy with that out of nostalgia.
#
But to incentivize them to the...
#
Artificially to the level where people there get the same kind of money.
#
I don't see, you know, why.
#
It depends on whose skills are on demand, are in demand.
#
Like if you think about it, a T20 game, for example, is much, much longer than a football game.
#
So, you know, why aren't you looking at football through the same lens?
#
Why aren't you saying match three-day football?
#
This is my personal opinion.
#
This is my purely personal opinion because just like I like T20 cricket,
#
I find test cricket more engrossing.
#
This is my personal opinion.
#
No, no, because I get more out of a session in test cricket.
#
Again, this is not my value judgment on the entire.
#
But therefore, it is in my interest, personal interest to keep two formats alive.
#
One format is probably based on market economics.
#
It will be alive for the next 20 years at least till the time a T10 comes and replaces T20 cricket.
#
And I think there is a lot of potential in T10 cricket also.
#
But that's a separate thing.
#
But given a choice personally, I would like Indian classical music also.
#
Classical musician who currently is worried about surviving
#
do not get Arijit Singh's 2 crore per concert, but at least get 5 lakh rupees.
#
So, I'm not saying 10 crores to 10 crores, but I'm saying keep this.
#
But my feeling is that, you know, Indian classical music is alive
#
because of Indian classical lovers who are still paying money to go to concerts
#
and buy records and do all of that.
#
So, I think test cricket will stay alive the same way.
#
And also, you see, again, look at this podcast again, right?
#
For example, everybody is podcasting globally in America.
#
Podcasting in this million plus listens, which doesn't happen in India.
#
You know, and people keep giving this bullshit of I've got so many listens
#
and I've got so many listens and whatever.
#
And I track this, you know, just generally because of interest in the space.
#
And I keep saying that, boss, it's not a viable medium
#
if you try to do advertising funded.
#
It is viable the way he is doing it saying, you like my podcast?
#
You know, pay me enough, either pay me for a coffee.
#
He very subtly puts that coffee or what do you say, what meal?
#
But I don't even advertise it anymore, but enough comes in.
#
But it comes in, obviously, because...
#
And sell your other products on it.
#
Right, and you're selling your other products.
#
He has built this little, you know, economy around himself, which is there.
#
Is it enough for him to survive?
#
Similarly, with test cricket, there should be an economy
#
and X number of people who enjoy it will like it.
#
Similarly, classical music. That's what I tell all the marketeers also, right?
#
That every time you go and sell a concept to a marketeer,
#
the marketeer is basing the money given to you based on impressions.
#
So I one day explained to a head of marketing
#
that you have to understand that the highest selling item on the internet is pornography.
#
Pornography drove the internet.
#
But that doesn't mean that a show where you are showing fully clothed people
#
talking about a certain issue is not good enough.
#
You cannot compete with pornography.
#
And I'm saying even violence also, just like the OTT, we are discussing that, right?
#
But as long as the head of marketing understands that these 50,000 views
#
are also important from the product point of view,
#
and these 20 million people, I will not be able to give you that.
#
But today, if you go to a company which is even selling to those 50,000 people,
#
they are also wanting to go with an influencer who has 10 million followers
#
because the marketing head said,
#
I had done 4 influencers, they have 50 million, so they haven't come yet.
#
That is what I'm worried about that, boss.
#
The guys have to take a call.
#
I'm saying if you're paying 10 rupees to this guy, pay 2 rupees at least to this guy.
#
Otherwise, this content will never come out.
#
Okay, two things. One is I think that a lot of the people who tell me
#
we love test cricket, don't watch test cricket. If they watched it,
#
this problem would be solved on its own.
#
So I think that's where the 2 rupees will come from, from the voluntary actions of people.
#
I think just to interrupt you here, the younger generation does not watch test cricket.
#
That's my personal experience, my sample size that I've watched.
#
But today in England, when I say again,
#
somebody might say that statistics shows that in the last Ashes test,
#
40% of the crowd know what I'm saying. Purely my observation over the last 8 years
#
watching test cricket is that they don't come.
#
Our 42 onwards, these people come to watch test cricket
#
and it will gradually decrease because the game of brands will be dependent on 15 to 34.
#
As ex-marketers, we would know that all money is spent between this segment
#
unless it's a brand that caters only for the top segment
#
because that also they say that if 15 to 34 accepts this,
#
the upper segment also gets shadowed.
#
So from that perspective, test cricket will suffer.
#
But you know, going back to what Amit said earlier,
#
that younger people have time and less money,
#
old elder people have got money and less time or whatever
#
and that bias can actually be programmed into doing things.
#
See, if you built more intimate test viewing for 10,000 people,
#
but intimate, right? But people don't solve. People want the same size,
#
fit, solve. In the same stadium, they also want to play cricket, right?
#
When I watched my, I hated cricket because in Lucknow,
#
going and sitting on a bench and warming your ass
#
was something you didn't want to do for things you couldn't see.
#
Now, you go to South Africa, the first time I went during,
#
you know, when we were doing the Ultra Tech events or whatever
#
and we went down and it was just a joy to see the thing.
#
And I said, it feels good to go here.
#
Then we do IPL work here. God save us, we don't want to go.
#
But you go to the newer stadiums, you feel it's better.
#
So, I think people need to, product has to be redesigned.
#
That's the problem. People don't do that.
#
And I'm saying, you know, the concerts for Floyd,
#
the concerts which are harkening back to Woodstock are selling more,
#
People just don't package a great show with one or two of these people,
#
right? And see what will happen. But that, that creating experiences,
#
you know, again, this was a conversation that you're having earlier
#
that, oh, the only artist in India who sell is, you know,
#
Arjeet and there's A.R. Rahman and maybe one or two others or whatever.
#
Not true. They sell the most.
#
Now, Anumita Nadesan is a girl who's just started.
#
She attracted about a thousand plus people,
#
I think on every show that she's doing.
#
Build a show which is for a thousand people.
#
That is something which people don't do.
#
I find that there are so many people who are not creators.
#
They are, they are riding a wave.
#
Right? And this is our problem.
#
That if you want to be the facilitation economy,
#
the facilitation economy is not the creator economy.
#
I keep trying to explain this to every artist management agency
#
which are run by many of our friends saying,
#
Creator economy, jo create kar raha hai.
#
Kusha Kapila is in the Forbes 30 under 30,
#
for being one of India's most influential women
#
because she is. Her brand integrations are so beautiful
#
that you watch that brand integration
#
because the girl has figured out
#
and she doesn't let anybody else control her narrative.
#
She's not letting some manager come and say,
#
suno ek popcorn pakalke aise bol dena.
#
Because she's in control of her narrative.
#
So, this creator economy separated from facilitator economy.
#
And this facilitation economy is the killer of most of these things.
#
So, I have a question for both of you as marketers.
#
But first, I want to comment, you said that
#
aap test match jedh nahi dekhne jate the
#
why will you warm your ass on a bench?
#
The thing is with your love for extreme temperatures
#
you are now paying to warm your ass.
#
But then you should do test cricket in extreme temperatures.
#
Test cricket in extreme temperatures.
#
Or after watching test cricket in Lucknow
#
you can go watch ice hockey in Canada.
#
Warm your ass, cool your ass down,
#
soon you don't know where your ass is.
#
Or your ass from your elbow as that saying goes.
#
And kindly refer to Amit's
#
I boiled my buttocks, yeah.
#
So, my question for you as marketers is this.
#
And this in a sense feeds into the ODI
#
the T20 test match argument.
#
Is that just in the creator economy
#
I think one thing that advertisers
#
and marketing people simply haven't figured out
#
how do you distinguish from high numbers
#
with relatively less numbers with high engagement.
#
and I think any podcaster would really say
#
that I would rather have 100,000 people listen to an episode
#
view a video that I put on YouTube.
#
your average engagement time might be 15 seconds
#
here for example an average session is 40 minutes
#
and people listen over multiple sessions.
#
is insanely off the charts.
#
And luckily because I have figured out
#
a way to monetize that directly from listeners
#
it's cool. But advertisers
#
simply haven't figured that out.
#
plays into the T20 test
#
thing because the argument then
#
could be that somebody who
#
watches test cricket both has
#
a deeper engagement while watching test
#
cricket and has more money to spend
#
on it as Roshan pointed out. So
#
one test cricket viewer
#
could be as valuable to you
#
as 10 T20 viewers if you
#
know how to tap into that.
#
Agree. I mean Roshan would be able to answer
#
this question better because he sells
#
is that yes they might be doing their
#
metric data analysis and consumer
#
audience surveys and stuff like that
#
but I think it's Lethaji. Because
#
a feeling when I talk to brand managers
#
and stuff like that that
#
getting a big celebrity
#
I mean I have nothing against
#
Baiju's but sometimes I wonder as a marketer
#
selling what do you call
#
the next ad is Baiju's education.
#
How does that work? Is there
#
some kind of a methodology and I have
#
nothing against Shah Rukh Khan also but I'm just saying
#
understand this brand marketing thing and
#
sometimes I think this is an investor push.
#
Like Vedantu signed Aamir Khan.
#
If you would have said what has
#
Aamir Khan learnt in his
#
journey as a film maker and he would have
#
done a series and that was the reason
#
Vedantu signed on Aamir Khan
#
I would have said probably this is a
#
good reason why you should sign Aamir Khan
#
but he is coming and saying aap Vedantu ka
#
klas lo. So that's the part I don't
#
understand because it's Lethaji. So build
#
vehicles of deep engagement rather than
#
No it's basically my point is that
#
I have given Aamir Khan X number of
#
crores of rupees. He was our brand ambassador.
#
This is a marketing plan versus
#
going deep down understanding
#
what these guys want and maybe
#
telling Vedantu to invest
#
in a podcast like yours because
#
that will have deeper engagement that may
#
not have the economic play as Aamir Khan
#
but still there would be something but if you
#
go to Vedantu they'll say no yaar
#
it's too much of hard work.
#
option because many a times
#
I have seen that the guy who's working in that
#
company wants to show a successful
#
metric of a great signing
#
and get another job in the next company
#
So he can get an Aamir Khan and say
#
ki haan 5 lakh view aage.
#
So incentive nahi hai brand head ko
#
ki dikhane ke liye ki maine bahut acchi
#
tarah se study karke ek ye
#
banaaya taaki merko iska
#
company zyada paisa dege
#
hai incentive aisa nahi hai but
#
mere khayal se wo long term me play hota hai
#
aur usko incentive itna nahi hai.
#
So let me break this down a little
#
to a certain degree and I'm just adding to what you're saying.
#
You're right to a certain degree means you're completely
#
Abhi kya extreme temperature me kitna
#
having worked in the marketing
#
space in various avatars from
#
trying to sell radio to TV
#
to events to whatever etc. What I've realized
#
market years life span in company
#
has shrunk from 10 years to an average
#
of 2-3 years. When it is
#
down to 2-3 years there is no
#
long term brand building.
#
Long term brand building is about investing
#
in things that will give you
#
results over a period of time.
#
If you're there for 3 years what do you need?
#
You need to win a couple of awards
#
you need to keep your quarter job
#
safe which means is quarter me
#
maine kya achieve kara and any metric
#
can be proven. You know you torture
#
statistics enough they will say whatever you want them to say.
#
in media coming. Sorry I'll interrupt.
#
I remembered a Siddhu line.
#
mini skirts. They reveal
#
more than what you hide. It may
#
not be his original line but still.
#
Yaar usne Crick and Foam me jya maine likhta tha
#
maine se line chori ki thi.
#
and I was also too clever and it's a bad
#
line. I had written something to the effect
#
of the light at the end of the tunnel as a torch
#
of a serial killer. Tu usne apne
#
No it's an oncoming trend.
#
And I was like shoot yaar.
#
And when you're dining with the demons you've got to have a long
#
So what happened is that
#
economy which exists on doing the
#
the end of the day does the marketing director
#
want surprises? Does the CEO
#
suddenly want a surprise? Ye tum ne kya kiya?
#
There's so many articles I read
#
about where's brave new marketing?
#
Where's the brave new campaign?
#
Imagine the number of celebrity endorsements we
#
an ad break. Where's the brave new ad?
#
Where's the storytelling ad?
#
When you see the storytelling ad
#
it does brilliantly. The Google ad by Uglvi,
#
recent things that I remember
#
and then of course just before Cannes you'll have something called
#
a flurry of advertising.
#
Har ek duniya ke jisko problem hua hai
#
uske baare mein ad banega. Right? And it's become
#
like it's called the advertising season.
#
People just keep looking for kya milega.
#
Langda Lula I'm very sorry to say but they actually look out
#
like that. It's horrible. But
#
in that entire thing you're looking for
#
quarter ka ek result aajaayi.
#
80% of jo sab kar rahe the
#
maine kuch alag kara. What is the kuch alag
#
o naya artist sign kar liya?
#
The number of brands that have come to
#
be saying, you know what we're doing? We're doing a brand
#
revamp and we're doing a new music video.
#
music video ki reach milti. Kyun? Kyun kya T-Series
#
pe play kar hoge maximum played YouTube
#
channel in the world hai. Itna percentage to dekhi
#
lete sir. Yeh picture aapko badaayi jata hai.
#
But did you really invest in making
#
a unique video? Did you really get
#
like I mean there's this lovely director called
#
Reem Sen who's been doing some fabulous work
#
and you see her work or whatever and you know
#
she did that, you know that dada ding
#
that lovely I think it was a Puma commercial
#
that she did or what. Brilliant.
#
But that requires bravery.
#
When Piyush, even today, you know aap
#
Piyush ke saath baithi hai, Piyush sir bai saath tinda kaam karte hain
#
it's a two way street. Discuss to karo
#
kuch naya to create kar raha chao. Wo nahi karna chaate hain.
#
The other thing is if you
#
want to get into the good books of
#
market here is win them an award.
#
Because awards shine on
#
CVs and are very good for getting your next job.
#
ne itne bana diye hain.
#
I sometimes tell people saying if you really
#
want to value an award, don't enter
#
so many. Nobody does it.
#
Everybody wants to see their name somewhere.
#
agency so and so awards
#
I won. Bada chal lagta hai.
#
So people are constantly building
#
around them. I believe that
#
the brave new marketeer is returning.
#
I'm seeing it. I'm suddenly noticing it.
#
Don't know whether it's a post pandemic thing.
#
People are taking more risks. People are
#
working with organizations.
#
Maximum number of people advertising today
#
in India are digital companies.
#
Right? They are mostly digital
#
brands. These brands have
#
always dreamed of interacting.
#
Firstly, they've dreamt of legitimacy.
#
In India, what's the biggest legitimacy?
#
Standing next to a celebrity.
#
The minute you hire a celebrity for
#
your brand, screw what it does
#
to the brand. The next thing that it does
#
is you have a picture with a person in your arm
#
and all your relatives say, hey, my son is
#
Vida Bachchan's friend. Exactly. And the CEO
#
was sitting with Shah Rukh Khan.
#
That's it. That's all they want.
#
The biggest demand is not
#
in 4 hours, sir, 1 hour ad,
#
2 hours with the dealer, 1 hour with the CEO's
#
family. What kind of marketing is this?
#
This is appeasement of a certain ego.
#
And people endorse this fully.
#
I attend so many of these
#
media events and then I stopped doing
#
it recently because they said that
#
everywhere the same thing.
#
Same conversation, same thing, same
#
set of people, whatever. But really
#
it will require a bunch of people
#
And they do. And again,
#
TVF has really come back
#
and I say that because I'm noticing it.
#
You go there and people say, you know, I want a
#
narrative like TVF. I want
#
something like this one. I'd like
#
happening. It's happening
#
with a bunch of creators. And I keep telling people
#
rather than put all your money
#
See which one is working and
#
then pump in the media money to make it big.
#
50% do whatever you want. Let people
#
This thing of working with agency
#
You know, that concept, oh, because
#
they understood the brand, the agency
#
invested in it. Agencies are so
#
into functions. So, JW was
#
known for strategy. Ogilvy was known for creative.
#
So and so known for media muscle.
#
today knows so much more.
#
I keep saying that have a culture council.
#
Have people... You know, we were chasing
#
at Commune for a long time.
#
We thought content, content and pandemic actually
#
because the only thing we could do was generate content.
#
So everybody became a content company.
#
I believe every creator is a content company
#
by themselves. But the issue
#
is what kind of content
#
realized that our strongest play is
#
So I've stood and said, for making great
#
content, I'll hire great people and work
#
with them. And if I even need to put it out
#
beyond the Commune network, I'll find you five
#
great networks which give you efficacy and return.
#
nobody is able to create the engagement
#
and experience I do, which is why
#
Commune will build far more physical
#
IPs. In culture, because
#
I deal with so many creators of
#
such diverse interests, I
#
am building culture councils and going to brands
#
saying, come, we will be your culture
#
and we'll be a culture lab.
#
We will come and tell you what to do in culture.
#
Should we execute it? No. The
#
best person should execute it.
#
But typical advertising behavior is,
#
do it with me. I'll make it in Ganavi.
#
I'll write an ad. I'll do this.
#
It doesn't happen, boss. It has changed a lot.
#
actually spread your wings
#
ally with a lot more people.
#
Break these big walls that you're doing
#
or whatever. And I'm telling you, it's
#
Marketers really, and some marketers
#
are really waking up to it. I genuinely value
#
them. I value them by giving them more time.
#
I value them by sending my best
#
ideas to them, provoking them.
#
That's a very important point. The structure of
#
marketing needs to change. Absolutely.
#
That means it has to come
#
from the education of marketing as well.
#
cricket lessons and life lessons.
#
No, I say very true. I mean,
#
the reason I don't have a particular response
#
to it is that I think that a lot of what you
#
said is stuff that I will re-listen to
#
and process over a period of time
#
and we'll continue this conversation.
#
That was your struggle as well, right? Selling
#
your content. It doesn't go on sale.
#
You don't go to the sponsor.
#
I have really decided as far as sales is
#
concerned that I won't do it.
#
I'm a product person. Product is best
#
marketing. So I won't do
#
Some advertisers come themselves.
#
put a code unseen. And then they will
#
realize that hey, it's really worked. So I get repeat
#
marketing. So there's this company called The Great
#
Courses Plus, which renamed themselves
#
Wondrium. So they advertised with me for a year.
#
in September, they said, we want to buy
#
out all your inventory for 2022.
#
okay, it's all in one shot. Because they
#
saw that my commercials had worked for them.
#
But then these RBI regulations
#
on recurring payments came in and
#
they changed their mind because they said that
#
now the client is saying that
#
they probably won't be able to pay
#
anyway. So let us suspend it. We'll
#
discuss it when the problem is resolved.
#
So I lost a massive chunk of money because
#
Roshan, give him a 10% stake.
#
I give Roshan a 10% stake.
#
Roshan will ask, what's the value?
#
I say, what value can it be?
#
my story is I love what I'm doing.
#
It's a labor of love. Whatever comes
#
in is a kind of a bonus. But I've always been
#
very impractical. I'm going to throw
#
that back at you in terms of saying what are some lessons
#
that you have picked up? Because I mean you are
#
interacting every week with such
#
If I was to say what are five lessons
#
that you have picked up and
#
I couldn't say it over 300 episodes.
#
But what would you say over
#
the end of the episode we were going to have this section where we all
#
gave advice to youngsters and I had
#
a bunch of points for that. But I won't look at
#
that. I would rather like since you asked
#
me. I think I've learned
#
listener. I've learned to be a little bit
#
I've learned to be less judgmental
#
which is very important. But that's
#
more a life lesson that I think just comes
#
with growing older and not necessarily because
#
over the last year especially as I've done
#
these long oral history kind
#
what I really like best is the stories
#
that people tell about themselves. And I find
#
many of my listeners will echo this and some won't.
#
thing is if you want to listen to subject X
#
on subject Y, you'll put it on YouTube
#
and search it. You'll get it. You'll get a thousand.
#
But if you really want to understand
#
someone's life, how they grew up,
#
their vulnerabilities, their insecurities,
#
their turning points, you don't really
#
get that anywhere else. Just
#
that personal touch. Like Ninal Pandey
#
came on the show and I asked
#
my first question about her childhood. She spoke
#
for one hour, ten minutes.
#
She spoke for one hour, ten minutes and she took
#
me from the fifties to the seventies.
#
She covered thirty years and it was
#
magical. Talking about her
#
mother, talking about her sister, talking
#
about her early childhood years.
#
You know, the first time they were at a balcony and
#
a group of people were going past in the early
#
fifties and she asked her mother
#
what is that or her grandmother, what are
#
these people and the grandmother
#
And she repeats it like that to me
#
seventy years later. And
#
for me those moments are magical
#
when you have a person revealing
#
themselves. Like Nikhil did so much
#
in his episode, Nikhil Taneja, the
#
loneliness of the Indian man. And I think
#
kind of special just listening to these
#
stories and these human connections.
#
And many of my listeners agree.
#
I've lost some listeners because I don't do
#
two hour deep dives into subjects, I do five
#
hour deep dives into people. But that's
#
just a direction that I like to
#
go and I think that's kind of
#
of value to me. And I'm wondering
#
something that happened with
#
you Vikram in the course of as we get back
#
to your cricket lessons. But in the course of your
#
interacting with cricket
#
you see that these guys, these guys are almost
#
larger than life, right?
#
Tendulkar, Dravid, Kumle. I mean they're just
#
you know, I still remember Kumle
#
with, you know we were doing live
#
bulletins for a test match in the West
#
Indies where he broke his jaw and he went out to bowl
#
with that, you know. And that makes them
#
so much larger than life. But then you're responding
#
to them as people and you're seeing their
#
frailties and their weaknesses and you're
#
learning lessons from that which of course we'll go
#
back to now. But what has been
#
your sense through this
#
time of relating to people as people?
#
And the reason I ask that is that I think
#
what I did when I was younger
#
and I don't want to generalise about whether
#
young people do it but I think all people do it to an
#
are the centre of the world, right?
#
You are the, you're playing the lead role
#
in the play in your head.
#
Everybody else is a proper aside character
#
but you are everything. You look at
#
people only in the sense that they are instrumental
#
to you or they are important for your story
#
but not as people themselves.
#
And then I think what I
#
have learnt most of all through my journey
#
have that humility and to respond
#
to people as people which obviously
#
listening to their stories
#
helps me do a lot. So how has
#
that journey been for you guys?
#
Absolutely and the joy that you
#
get unraveling people and
#
their stories is exactly the
#
joy I got in the journey of covering
#
when you meet people who you
#
admire because of the nature of the profession
#
they are in, you realise that
#
life are noticing people
#
in relatively low pressure
#
right? You notice people in high
#
pressure zones and unlike
#
that is why, what is the most exciting
#
thing about high performance careers, right?
#
People who are astronauts or for that
#
matter mountaineers and
#
cricketers and stuff like that, that when
#
the quality of the insight
#
it just opens your mind and says
#
oh aise bhi ho sakta hai. In normal
#
circumstance hum kitna visualise harte hai
#
but when you hear a story of
#
a cricketer or a basketball player visualising
#
of that concept hits you harder
#
so when you talk to maybe
#
an economist or for that matter somebody who
#
has been a foreign secretary, you know
#
it's a high pressure zone that the person
#
has performed and therefore the
#
higher the pressure the
#
more interesting the story gets
#
this is what I have realised and because
#
you love a particular sport
#
or for that matter a particular
#
profession, when you start
#
and what is our joy, right? And I think
#
we like to go into other people's
#
world and that's why you read so many
#
books, right? What is a book, yaar?
#
A book basically is transporting you
#
to a different profession, a different
#
person, a different thought process
#
where you are saying ki boss mai
#
agar economist ka kitap pada toh mai economist bhi
#
ban gaya, cricketer ka paya toh mai cricket bhi
#
khel liya, so somewhere you are
#
in which you live other people and that's why I like
#
autobiographies and that's why when I went
#
into his world and I am saying that boss
#
I am sitting with a guy
#
who's actually scored the hundred
#
he will tell me ki boss kya hua
#
jab wo batata hai toh mera toh dopamine
#
dope level pe chala jaa
#
kyunki main soch raha hu yaar
#
isnu toh merko wo kahaani bata di
#
kahaani sunna ye toh apne ko
#
achcha lagta hai, hum sab kahaani ke
#
that is why on What The Duck
#
happened, What The Duck moment for me
#
was like your seen in the unseen
#
moment, right? Where you are going and asking them
#
questions and they are putting
#
I mean just putting down their entire
#
life story but I don't deep dive
#
that much, I had 45 minutes to an hour
#
more because they are people with limited
#
time and they would not like to share
#
their life and they would not
#
like to share their life in public, they would share
#
that with me over a drink
#
or whatever and stuff like that but
#
when you hear those insights the joy
#
this entire activity special
#
and you talk about work ethic, right?
#
One of the biggest events I have done
#
point of view is a concert
#
Sachin Tendulkar was in conversation with
#
Ustad Zakir Hussain. Oh my god, I was there
#
days of sitting with Zakir Hussain and
#
Sachin Tendulkar curating this
#
flow and what they will be speaking, it's a
#
tough one, right? One is a cricketer, one is
#
to two common points where they talk about
#
final output should be oh my god
#
because Zakir Hussain was saying
#
things about his life which were like
#
wow, what a story that you know he told
#
and imagine this is Sachin, this is
#
Zakir Hussain, this is me, this is Sunandan
#
and like a conversation is happening
#
where Zakir Hussain is saying that
#
Sachin, first show me your hands
#
and he showed his hands and
#
Zakir Hussain touched his
#
hand and said that just give me 30 seconds
#
wo haato ki power mere haato me jaane do
#
his hand for 30 seconds and Zakir is
#
a maestro, right? At all levels
#
and then he said that ye
#
actually haat mere bhi hote the
#
so I said Zakir bhai aap kyun aise bol rahe ho
#
main Shivaji bhak main wicket
#
aur hum Mahim mein rehte the, main regular cricket kheel tha
#
main achha wicket keeper tha
#
ek din ball mere left hand pe
#
collect karte samay lagi
#
tere haat na ball collect
#
karne ke liye nahi bane hua hai
#
nikalne ke liye aapke haat bane hua hai
#
and he said for me that was a day where I felt
#
really hurt because my cricket was
#
being taken away from me because I love
#
wicket keeping and then they had
#
you know the sound of the tabla
#
and then Sachin said you know
#
for both of us sound is important
#
there is twice in the net when you get
#
that and you know the sound
#
indicator of whether you are in form or not
#
and he said exactly jab
#
hum sam pe aate hain toh wo sound se
#
tabla jab hum lagaate hain
#
Amit this went on and I am like
#
and you are also a tabla player and a batsman yourself
#
again I am a failed tabla player
#
and a failed cricketer so I appreciate this more
#
and then Zakir bhai said
#
something interesting he said
#
Sachin aapko yaad hai aapne 241 banaya tha
#
brett lee ke short ball ko aapne wo
#
nikalta hain tab aap form mein
#
and then they played that
#
we curated that as well
#
work ethic question so I asked
#
aap kitne gante riyaaskar mein
#
I was looking for 12 hours
#
and he looked at me and said
#
kabhi kabhi ruk jate hain
#
and said like kya bol rahe hain
#
he said that ek jo acha artist hota hain
#
uska riyaas kabhi rukta nahi hain
#
behte hain wo bahar aata hain
#
abhyas aapke dimaag me chalte rehta
#
toh aesa ek waqt nahi jata ki aap
#
already waha pe hoti hain
#
aur aap usko join hote ho
#
aur tabla ke madhyam se nikalta hain
#
so work ethic wo hi cheez hain
#
jiske dimaag me ye chalta rahe hain
#
imagine Sachin Tendulkar said
#
this guy making and he said that
#
as a kid I didn't know when I was
#
stopping batting because I was always
#
playing the ball in my head
#
great place even Kohli talks about it
#
the fact that my success
#
he says is because of the fact
#
that I am constantly practicing
#
whether you are practicing actually
#
or whether you are practicing in your brain
#
does not matter and that kind
#
experiencing both professions
#
but reaching to the common goal of
#
excellence when you said work
#
ethic kind of these were memories that
#
I could not forget and there was another
#
very interesting memory Martina Navratilova
#
I was interviewing in Thailand
#
while all the dealers are taking massages
#
the most important lesson I have
#
which has come through sport
#
but in a sense it kind of is
#
the most important lesson everybody should
#
learn about and that is being in the moment
#
I asked Martina that you know
#
person decide to call it
#
it's a very simple answer
#
and it happened to me at Wimbledon
#
and I could hear the plane pass by
#
tossed the ball and I could hear the plane
#
and that day she said I am
#
she said because in my life
#
I could not hear anything
#
and the day I heard the plane
#
I knew it was time for me
#
and Ian Chappell said the same thing
#
said Chapelli when did you retire
#
he said there was a match in Adelaide
#
when I was in second slip
#
and I looked at the watch again at 4.45
#
the human mind has the ability to focus
#
only on one thing it's the past
#
if something is disturbing your
#
current moment it's an area of concern
#
and you have to evaluate it
#
and you know that is not the right day
#
and that brings me to an amazing
#
story of Virendra Sehwag
#
where everybody knows about
#
I had a chat with him one day
#
and he said what is the theory of singing
#
so before this I had read
#
a very interesting book by a guy called
#
he talks about the mental state in tennis
#
so it's a very interesting thing
#
he said when you are playing
#
tennis you will normally
#
what are you doing hit it short
#
I also play tennis so I know
#
so he said there are two states of play
#
in a human body when you are playing sport
#
self one which is that guy
#
who is playing tennis who has honed his skill
#
over the years and he has allowed
#
so your ball is coming you are reacting
#
because you have learnt it
#
the whole system is geared to pick
#
the ball length drive play the
#
second is a guy called self two
#
which is there in the body which is the mind
#
this is the most dangerous guy
#
because this is the guy who is creating
#
self doubt in self one and disallowing
#
so the whole journey of a sportsman
#
is to keep self two away from
#
and sledging and my analysis
#
is sledging is exactly to
#
activate self two so the moment a
#
batsman comes into bat and a wicket keeper
#
says hey mate yesterday you couldn't take the
#
and the moment self two has said
#
that boss you can't play the bouncer
#
the entire mind will shift to the fact
#
that you can't play the bouncer and you will
#
so how do you deactivate this
#
self doubt fellow to allow your body
#
to be in the natural state
#
so that it reacts to the ball at play
#
is the entire journey of being in the moment
#
and now in that context I had read this
#
and that's why if you see what you have to do is
#
play a tennis shot tennis players are told
#
to count the strings of the racket
#
worry about the bad shot
#
that you played and you reduce
#
the anxiety of the next shot you are going to play
#
so that's the logic of being in play
#
he said ya Saate saab dekhon kya hota hai
#
ek ball aur dosre ball ke
#
antar mein aapki wicket jaati hain
#
suppose maine cover point pe maari
#
toh mere dimaag mein chal raha hai
#
agla ball agar aise aage hain
#
Gillespie ne aise kar diya waise kar diya
#
aur main dekh raha hoon ki jaise meri thought waisa
#
waisa meri gaya aur main next ball aise out
#
Dravid ko pucha Dravid bola ki
#
main deep breathing karta hoon
#
square leg position main
#
toh main dravid bhai ko bola bhai
#
mujhe toh meditation aati nahi hai
#
jabbi meditation karta hoon neend aajati hai
#
toh he said mainne apna
#
ek ball aur dosre ball ke andar apne ko
#
kishore kumar bharna hai
#
and he said the moment I played
#
the ball and I came this way
#
main zindagi ka saath nivata
#
till the bowlers mark I would say and as many times
#
I have told Ishaan Sharma ki bhai
#
main lyrics bul gaya ho jaldi aaja second ball
#
ka yahi kaam hota hai Indian cricket
#
it's happened in a match in South Africa
#
isme se leke aaya bhai tu gade
#
and he went on to score some 100 runs
#
so I thought these were very deep
#
philosophies of being in the moment
#
anybody to like I told my nephew
#
the other day who has a little bit of attention
#
issue like me and say that now that
#
you are doing this can you just for the
#
next 15 minutes do this without getting
#
distracted and now in this mobile
#
generation is getting tougher and tougher
#
so many young players today
#
Raul would probably spend more time
#
in telling them to be in the moment because
#
rest of the cricketing skills as Dravid says
#
they are these boys are far better than what
#
and the 90s because they have far
#
more strokes than I can ever imagine
#
through cricket there were some great
#
life lessons that one got exposed to
#
of basic things that everybody in
#
life should be doing and
#
said we all share this thing of
#
just understanding people's lives
#
makes others life more interesting
#
fact you know when I started
#
Commune and before that
#
every time I mean before that I think most of my
#
things that I was doing
#
and when you started with this thing of saying that you know
#
this self belief and wanting to
#
do everything for yourself
#
I initially was just doing
#
things because you know I had these
#
period of time when I was doing stuff because
#
it was all very safe zone similarly I might
#
be doing four television shows but they were all safe
#
I wasn't acting because that I was unsafe
#
then when I got into the film I said
#
yaar aap baas ban gaya and you know the problem was
#
and I mean Satya knows this very closely because he was
#
with me in that journey with a whole bunch of our
#
friends and at that point in time I
#
started imagining the outcome
#
more than concentrating
#
on what I was doing like I
#
swear I swear the stupidest thing was to think
#
ke main toh Indian Idol ka judge bhi ban jauga
#
you know ke bhai itni badi film marane ke
#
I'll be an Indian Idol judge
#
you know and you get seduced by all
#
the stupid things in the world you know
#
the role to hell is paved with
#
good intention kind of stuff and
#
there is this classic problem
#
if you are a democratic decision
#
maker which I normally am I like to take
#
everyone's opinion on a film set
#
and Quentin Tarantino said this he says you know
#
at the altar that you worship
#
main jo bol raha ho hi ho gaya
#
chahi mujhe khud nahi pata ho
#
Imtiaz has told me the same thing at time saying that I'm on the
#
set and suddenly somebody will ask me
#
I didn't know nothing about cinematography
#
a shot being done and in the middle of the
#
shot my cinematographer would come and say Imtiaz
#
I'm thinking of doing a mid shot moving from here to here
#
what do you think? So I used to
#
listen to him pause for a bit and tell him say
#
maybe you could start a little
#
I didn't know what to tell him
#
but I couldn't show people that I don't
#
know I would very often naively
#
acknowledge the fact ki yaar okay
#
and I realised that on a
#
film set na everybody wants to make their own film
#
and they will never get that opportunity
#
so you open up that opportunity once
#
the gaffer to the AD to the actor
#
to the make up person will tell you his
#
and that is so hyper confusing unless you are decisive
#
so you can hear and make your decisions okay now shut up
#
pe kaam karne ke baad na main nichur chuka
#
tha mere andar se sab nikal gaya tha koi
#
kahani nahi bachi thi nothing was
#
left so when commune started
#
and Sathe knows this that I said
#
every time a session happens
#
I am richer because meh
#
meh das logon ki vision se sunta
#
and because I hear them
#
a film so every time it's
#
acha gari yeh aise hota to aise ho jata hai right
#
now this has been happening to 2015
#
onwards roughly 17 actively
#
absolutely I am now set again I am about
#
to write I am half written a book which is
#
going to be a film writing to OTT
#
shows but it's all because I have
#
been so enriched by these stories
#
that I have listened so as you said
#
that I have actually repicked
#
because I feel I picked it till I was 23
#
24 then I implemented it for a good
#
15 years sab nichlo gaya ab phir
#
bharna shroo kar raha tha
#
did all that this being
#
present is something that I again
#
recently in the play I realised because
#
play acting as an actor till
#
I realised in the first 20 days ki mere
#
charo taraf sab actor the unka profession
#
there were one or two of them who were like Namit is a great
#
but you know and he used to have a band and everything
#
but everybody else was just an actor
#
so the first thing was that on the 10th day or something
#
I actually went up to Sagar and I said Sagar
#
will you do my lines with me and he was like
#
kya baat kar rahe hain aap and I said ne ne bhai
#
ye mai aapko guru maan ke kah rahe hain
#
and he was like arre Roshan bhai aap aisa
#
maat kar rahe hain and I was like no I am not joking
#
I am not trying to chadhao you
#
I am being very honest in telling you this is your craft
#
I am a learner teach me
#
and I said you do it you do it you do it and I would
#
love observing him and seeing this
#
or like Sharwari was in every scene and I found her
#
to be so and I went to her and said tell me
#
and then she told me this thing about saying that you know
#
and says it's not just my breath
#
it's your breath because we are
#
envelope of air meise saas
#
le rahe hain toh agar aap zyada le henge toh mai
#
kam lungi aur agar aap kam le henge toh you know like
#
this thing and to think of something
#
ikti khushi hoti hai toh know ki kisi ne
#
you know kwaare mein itna socha hai
#
then aap usko implement karte hain you know
#
there is a scene in which Lalit
#
just realized that the house is crumbling
#
and he's got to make this big decision between
#
the magic child who is his
#
cousins daughter or does he manage to
#
banish the brother what does he do
#
and there was a moment and Meera kept coming
#
to me and explaining because I was
#
so I would perform the thing perfectly
#
and then there was a point where I suddenly have to say
#
where's the scene is over and it
#
switches the tone to where's the photographer
#
and I would say it and she would keep saying no
#
I think I'm doing a great job and the scene
#
see if you were present
#
you cannot switch emotions
#
so quickly you've just banished
#
a man who meant everything in your life in
#
three seconds if you're saying where's the photographer
#
you can't be all hunky dory
#
would still be there and I couldn't feel it
#
couldn't feel it couldn't feel it
#
kept asking that I ask the other actor ask the other
#
actor and stuff and everybody said
#
tum kaise karte tum kaise karte tum kaise karte
#
ultimately you know what I so I had
#
to develop my own thing and I remembered this breath thing
#
so from the point of the
#
banishment which is about a minute and a half of the scene
#
I start holding my breath
#
my voice gets more constricted
#
because saas kam hai to you know barti jaari
#
whatever whatever and at this point
#
I used to have to take such a deep
#
emotional change automatically
#
when I said where's that photographer
#
you know and I was still
#
she said yeah you're there
#
wo understanding jo hoti hai
#
by listening by being present
#
by rehearsing that craft and I
#
just feel this that you know we're always
#
must believe that you know
#
your craft you can only keep improving
#
you know and I'm telling you ever since I started
#
listening to the podcast then the classes
#
then our conversations and I'm
#
I'm a sponge main wo khichta rahaunga
#
nichod uska kab nike lega
#
mujhe nahi pata ya saathi hum logi jab aate hoti hain
#
hum logi hain macha gaha hai
#
yeh kammun mein sab stories aane huye hai
#
nahi dekho main aaj jo script
#
likha hua isse liye because mujhe
#
mujhe wo grammar, wo text, wo
#
canvas wo sab firse mil gaya hai
#
aur mera confidence ab usse level pe ki
#
tere maa ki hain aap dekha hai
#
Meera said something so what happened was a week
#
before the play suddenly we were given a message
#
she came saying that tomorrow morning guys we have
#
har ro script parne new script read kiya hai
#
toh we were told that the culture ministry
#
and doha I mean there are some things
#
and whatever cultural sensitivities we'll have to
#
address and I'm seeing this
#
bloody world renowned director 65
#
year old handling the world on one
#
side doing this play against
#
all odds our equipment hadn't reached Amit
#
on time we were delayed
#
but she's coming every morning
#
with this good morning sunshine how are
#
you all doing come here my loves give me
#
a hug you know and I would turn to
#
and I remember that morning when she
#
had to do this all of this I turned to her I said how
#
are you doing not good but I'm a better actor
#
than all of you and she just told me in my ear
#
I said yaar dekho yeh kya hai
#
toh jab wo show khatam lua bahot achha show tha
#
and she was just absolutely delighted
#
and I went to her and she said it's what I
#
always say it's what I always say heart of a
#
poet skin of an elephant
#
meri toh is meri toh latest
#
learning of haar jagi hai usko apne diwaar bhi chalata hu
#
meri line add kar diye heart of a poet
#
hide of an elephant brain of a
#
I think uska theek tha aapne business kiya
#
but it was just that I just felt
#
that it was such a great
#
you know to just constantly keep
#
evolving along this line is
#
the biggest lesson that I can
#
possibly give to anyone
#
to the younger generation there's one lesson
#
that I definitely want and it's more of
#
less a lesson more a request it is
#
be gentle with your elders because
#
when I handle my parents there are
#
one day I could see that my mother was
#
low about something and I said shall we go
#
and see her and I couldn't even complete
#
I said mom I go and see
#
a therapist you know Shaheen and I have gone
#
when they needed counselling
#
but for them it means something else
#
unke ek stamp laga hua hai
#
and I am like I haven't been able to explain it
#
to her and I was very frustrated
#
very angry because I knew that if she did
#
it would make her such a difference but she won't
#
because it's got this thing attached
#
and I just have to be gentle
#
and say I can't change this
#
yeh mein nahi badal paunga
#
toh theek hai uske saath jeena
#
you know after he had his
#
gallbladder thing here before
#
iske baad meh hospital kabhi nahi jaa raha hai
#
I am like God forbid na jaana padhe
#
leke gana padega toh main toh leke jaaunga
#
he was like no you promised me that you will not do it
#
because I have done my share I am very happy
#
again you know like my mind is saying
#
what the hell what are the resources there is everything
#
medicine blah blah blah
#
and sometimes when I deal with my children
#
I find that there are moments of
#
deep resentment, there are moments of
#
my daughter wrote a poem
#
and I got so impacted because
#
you know and I said this is about us
#
it's poetry and I am exaggerating
#
and my fear was I hope what if she is not
#
exaggerating what if she really means every word
#
of this have we scarred her
#
in this manner is it because of something she observes
#
just that and I just feel that
#
logon ko idusre ke saath thoda
#
mental hona zaruri hai because
#
bahoti everyone has their own set of
#
battles everyone is coming from a
#
different set of you know beliefs
#
which have cast them a particular way
#
we try very hard to change
#
but I think after a point
#
our generation which looked both ways once
#
to the computers and once to
#
the online offline worlds I believe
#
we are a lot more resilient
#
personally I like to believe that we are a lot more resilient
#
but you know the other two
#
sides ki generation hai wo bade
#
extremes hai to unke interaction me to
#
bahoti gentleness honi chayegi hai
#
aur humaye generation ko bhi thoda gently
#
I think one person I like to bring up
#
in this context is a guy called Phineas Gage
#
have you heard of him? No
#
so Phineas Gage was a railroad
#
main kaise jaanunga yaar
#
because you are interested in
#
neuroscience and this is a famous neuroscience
#
railroad worker tha toh he was working
#
with some rods or whatever so at one point
#
he was distracted by something
#
and there was a blast and the rod went
#
through his like yaha eye se gaya
#
came out from the head it literally went through
#
his brain right so you would imagine
#
him to be dead on the spot but he wasn't
#
and people came they managed to
#
take the rod out I think 2-3 hafta
#
hospital mein tha and then he was
#
released now physically he got back to normal
#
his frontal cortex now what
#
happened was that physically
#
he got back to normal his memories
#
were identical his intelligence
#
was the same but his personality
#
changed from being a gentle
#
and I can't even think of a comparison in
#
this but he became a very violent abusive
#
ugly person where he would shout
#
at people and all of that and lose his temper
#
all the time he became a completely different person
#
one of his friends described him as
#
not gage you know from phineas gage
#
neuroscientist studied him and you know there are
#
photographs of his skull with the rod go through
#
it or maybe it's an image whatever but
#
the conclusion there was
#
that and this is I think a profound
#
truth for all of us that character
#
is more contingent than we
#
think right that we think
#
ki main hoon main hoon you know
#
roshan hai boh gentle person hai good man
#
re put a rod through his head phir dekho kya hai
#
knowing him he'll put a rod through our head
#
put a rod through his head he'll change and he'll put a rod
#
through our heads no but the point being
#
is so contingent like I think back on
#
one of my favorite musicians chris connell
#
he took medication for something
#
and that medication it was later found
#
out makes people suicidal
#
and he killed himself right so
#
otherwise a person who is living life to the
#
full always in the moment actually
#
changing completely so so much
#
of what we are is dependent
#
on things like the structure of the brain or the
#
chemical balance of that day you know
#
if I miss my breakfast on a particular day
#
I might be a different person in the afternoon
#
just for a short span of time you're
#
reading behave by Robert Sapolsky so that is
#
so much about how contingent all of this is
#
and I want to double down on the advice you
#
gave roshan for young people and for people
#
everywhere in general and say that
#
please don't be judgmental of
#
other people number one reason
#
might be that you are wrong young people
#
are often wrong later you change your mind you
#
understand nuance you understand the world differently
#
so you might be wrong but even if you
#
are right even if you are convinced that you are right
#
and somebody else is wrong in their doings
#
do not be judgmental because
#
everything that we are is contingent
#
we are all going to die anyway so be
#
gentle be compassionate always
#
be good to everyone and why am I
#
sounding more and more like a self-help guru
#
so let me come to another question
#
with this which is that you know
#
what you were mentioning was very fascinating about
#
you know martin and everett lova
#
hearing the plane just such a mind
#
such a beautiful mind blowing story
#
wrote a post 18 years ago I think
#
why athletes choke I think I was
#
basing it on something gladwell wrote
#
and it's exactly the same thing that there is
#
one part of your decision making brain
#
which is just automating everything so
#
if I'm driving on the street
#
I'm not even thinking actually
#
it's really complicated driving you know there are the
#
laws of physics different objects of
#
different masses moving from different angles
#
at different velocities it's incredibly
#
complicated but the part
#
of our brain handles it but the moment the other
#
part of the brain comes in where you begin to overthink
#
it you are screwed like
#
I can type anything I want but if you ask
#
me where is why on the keyboard
#
you know without looking down I can't
#
tell you even though I obviously know because I'm
#
always typing without looking at the keyboard
#
or if I say how do you sign
#
show me you know and you'll suddenly
#
find the other part of your brain has come in and you
#
are having trouble signing and
#
you know you no longer control
#
your bank account and everything's gone
#
to hell but you know leaving
#
aspect of being in the moment
#
right is super important
#
not just for a Martina Navratilova
#
or for a Virender Sehwag
#
for all of us and it's something that
#
I try to do but it's incredibly
#
hard because most of the time
#
you're just a little bit in the past or a little bit
#
in the future and earlier
#
you spoke about Roshan routinizing
#
everything and this is something I also
#
want to ask about that boss
#
if I hadn't met you I wouldn't have believed you're one person
#
I would have thought it's a collective of people
#
who call themselves Roshan Abbas and do all this
#
in fact after this recording I'm
#
going to check if during this recording he's posted
#
then I will know that there is someone else
#
it's a team of people who call themselves
#
Roshan Abbas this guy is a front
#
so I want to understand
#
a little bit from both of you
#
in your case it's your mastery of
#
work ethic and discipline
#
and staying in the moment at each of the times
#
you do this and in your case it would be
#
like in my case an attempt
#
to be sort of like that
#
so I'd like to hear of both your
#
sort of experiences with this aspect
#
and then we'll get back to the cricket and to Meera Nair
#
and you've forgotten the singing
#
that will come in the end
#
so I'll sum it up my way
#
and then you can take on because you're actually
#
practicing it but I'm actually asking about
#
you like what have been your experiences
#
personally how do you find a work ethic
#
for yourself because I have the same problem
#
as you in terms of attention span
#
and mind always wandering and seeking
#
dopamine through various
#
a thousand times better than me
#
I have had this problem since I was a child
#
read more than 10 minutes
#
is not there and I've struggled
#
but because I'm a lazy person this I
#
could have won over only by
#
discipline and routinizing which Roshan now
#
it comes naturally to him so
#
if I would have practiced maybe today
#
I decide to go home and I do
#
the routine like you know you look
#
at any cricketers post match
#
interview it's the two words routine
#
and process because that's the only
#
way to come to the moment there is no other
#
for example you and me have to come
#
to a point we will have to design
#
in the morning do that for 100
#
days to get that behavioral delta going
#
and only then we will be able
#
to get that you know as Gulzar Saab
#
friends that irrespective
#
of what I do in my life
#
so once you write for 4 hours
#
every day you might write
#
the worst thing in the world but on your
#
100th day you'll realize that the quality
#
is improving but I don't get
#
whether I do it one day or not
#
that is purely work ethic
#
and discipline and the moment you
#
do it I have been told by people who
#
are performing at the highest level
#
that you'll be surprised with the power of
#
routine and that's what Automic Habits
#
also talks about right it is just about
#
doing that drill again and again
#
playing those 200 balls on a daily
#
basis and then you are also surprised
#
how you hit that that's why if you see
#
see him react in that post
#
match interview and I do post match I listen
#
to post match interviews very clearly because
#
it's a good representation of the state of
#
mind of the player that at that point of
#
time he says I don't know how it happened
#
which means he's in the moment
#
the moment you you are in the moment
#
that's what in sporting
#
parlance is called a zone where you
#
actually are not able to think of anything
#
and that is where your anxiety is
#
the least why do people say
#
that boss in the moment when you are there
#
then there is no anxiety and stress in in your
#
life because the past and present have been eliminated
#
so philosophically also
#
Patanjali 4000 years was trying to
#
tell you the same thing
#
that if you are on your breath then you can't
#
be anywhere else, humanly it's not possible
#
that when I am talking to you
#
I am on twitter, Roshan is different
#
but I am saying generally
#
once you have to come to work
#
and he looks at the ball like
#
once Tendulkar told me that at
#
by the colour of the ball I could
#
pick at what point Magra would
#
reverse swing and that I had
#
done by observing how colour of the ball
#
changes but this is genius
#
right, I mean how can you
#
figure out colour of the ball and the nature of
#
the reverse swing that comes because the guy
#
is seeing and there is a huge significance
#
when the commentator says that he is seeing
#
the ball like a football
#
we think that yaar ye ye, wo bada
#
aisa zone mein ki uske pupils bhi
#
dilate ho raha hai and jaise
#
bolte hai na ki when your adrenaline is high
#
is when fighter flight me
#
jab tum aate ho tab tumhara sab
#
blood pressure achcha ho jata hai and that's when the time
#
your body is the best to react and that's
#
why you are in that state of
#
and I'll come to that last point of pressure
#
handling is when the adrenaline
#
output is the most optimum
#
jab hota hai iska matlab over analysis me ho
#
kam hota hai which means you are not
#
nervous so at a stand up comedian
#
level when I am a little nervous that's
#
when my best one liners come
#
when I am complicit my attendance
#
is not there so I have just done my
#
this thing when I am super nervous and
#
I prepared so heavily so the
#
amount of preparation which is process
#
and routine also is because it has to be
#
calibrated and that is why most sportsmen
#
say that the best time I have performed
#
is when I have rested well
#
how much output to rest
#
defines a good sports person
#
and my last point before the great
#
Roshan Abbas tells his routine
#
is the pressure point right
#
that there are two perspective
#
of high performance athletes to pressure
#
where they say shit kall India
#
Pakistan hai lag gayi boss
#
and that's nothing to do with your
#
other thing which you'll see Virat Kohli
#
mentioning that I am waiting for an
#
Rahul Dravid would say in
#
India when you met him after a test match
#
waiting for England to begin
#
now these two perspectives
#
because the moment you say
#
I am looking for pressure
#
pressure does not affect you the moment
#
you want to run away from pressure is when
#
you give a catch in the second slip in the second
#
over knowing that this batsman could
#
be actually better than this batsman
#
and that is why the greatest
#
philosophy I have heard on pressure is
#
Jimmy Connors statement when he
#
was asked how do you deal with pressure
#
used to crumble under pressure
#
then I made a perspective for myself
#
when I said when is the
#
became the richest when is the time
#
when I was the happiest ever when
#
is the time when I got the most attention
#
it was when I performed
#
after a high pressure game
#
which means if I have to get rich
#
it means I have to be under pressure
#
so if there is no pressure what a boring thing to
#
his mind in such a way that pressure
#
is where my incentive will be the highest
#
and I will get the most return
#
out of my profession and he said
#
that the only quest now was after
#
I had that perspective was
#
wait for a high pressure game and that
#
is why my last submission
#
is that you see the greatest
#
players in the world they don't
#
perform in Ranji Trophy games
#
there is a great quote by
#
Keith Miller Australian all rounder
#
in World War 2 and there is a particular kind of
#
German plane called the Messerschmitt
#
so Michael Parkinson once asked Keith Miller
#
about pressure and Keith Miller said
#
you know what pressure is? Pressure is a Messerschmitt
#
and then he was asked about Captaincy
#
pressure he said that is not pressure
#
the whole thing into perspective
#
what is pressure and I came across
#
this very interesting distinction
#
between panic and choke recently
#
where the distinction is that
#
choking is when you are over thinking it
#
and panic is when you are not
#
which I found really fascinating
#
so the answer is somewhere in between
#
the answer is like you said that specific
#
point where everything is just
#
kind of in place and you probably
#
only get there if like you said if you are
#
well rested you are fresh and you know
#
you just kind of do your
#
Kishore Kumar before the ball
#
I have actually currently
#
been thinking a little deeply about
#
I actually wanted to ask
#
you forgot your question
#
that I have made my life so much
#
that am I fulfilled by the relationships
#
because my work relationships my friends
#
extend from my work relationships only
#
my frankly all the work
#
I do is work that I enjoy so I don't think it
#
is work it is really a great environment
#
the other thing that happens
#
incapable or inadequate
#
so after Nikhil's episode I actually called him and said Nikhil
#
give me your therapist number so I said guys
#
I want to discuss this because
#
with no therapist have I ever been able to discuss
#
this aspect they do some of us
#
that we are maladjusted elsewhere
#
and Sathe has known me so long and he knows
#
that I genuinely try my
#
best to give time to family
#
you know whatever and I really do it
#
there was an app I found some last
#
year called garden and garden
#
is an app actually which says almost how to
#
nurture your relationship so it says it allows you to divide
#
business and then accordingly
#
it allows you to set reminders when to
#
connect with them so automatically it will do
#
family once a week friends
#
say you know once a fortnight
#
business maybe once a month and you can keep
#
wearing that and I used
#
it for 2-3 months and I realised that I automatically do it
#
I call my parents every morning
#
normally wait for him to get in touch with me or
#
whatever because I know he is in that phase where
#
I was in college so I didn't want to be in touch with anyone
#
I can do I do or whatever as I said
#
there are lots of topics that I might end up discussing with her
#
because we are trying to lead this
#
two country life at the moment and I have just
#
been taught this new thing about a three flag life
#
which is can you chase the
#
season of your choice across three countries
#
life to lead right but then it is
#
a nomadic life and I am okay with a
#
nomadic life I think somewhere we
#
are still struggling with the fact that we are in two countries
#
now a days we are spending
#
a lot of time where Shaheen is running her business there
#
I am here or whatever and you know and
#
we have been a very very close
#
family overall even otherwise
#
realising that there is all of these aspects and
#
sometimes I have been just trying to understand that
#
work oriented and are we
#
emotionally a little dissonant are we always
#
brought up not to show our
#
emotions so often for example
#
I cry at a patriotic film but normally most other
#
things do not make me cry at all
#
and again and I am saying all this
#
because otherwise my work
#
routine and ethic is very clear
#
I wake up really early I normally
#
get up with my daughter in the morning so that I
#
can see her for that one hour before she goes to school
#
on certain days and I tell her listen I am waking up
#
an hour before just to be with you
#
please at least be happy
#
and then she says it is not you it is me
#
and I was like no no beta I understand
#
and then you know she has found it so there are
#
days when she will give me that happy radiant smile and
#
agni and whatever and there are days when she sort of just
#
slink out of the door as if somebody was
#
the cat is dragging out but it is
#
that or whatever I then
#
because nobody else wakes up really early I get those
#
two hours with myself which
#
is when I am doing all my
#
opening portals going into trap doors
#
all of it down or whatever as it were
#
right after that in the morning
#
with breakfast and if I can I try
#
to work out three times a week sometimes I will do
#
five days if I am in Dubai I will just go and cycle for
#
fifteen kilometers while listening to you
#
half the time you know at
#
1.5x which now I have managed to get to
#
1.5 so and I know that my
#
fifteen kilometers in mean that it will take me
#
45 minutes and in that 45 minutes
#
I have almost covered two hours
#
of the podcast so I am done half
#
then I will try and do it the next day and that's one
#
routine that I follow after that I have got
#
these two calls that are normally scheduled one with
#
my internal team so which is my left brain right
#
brain and I say today I have to do this
#
very often I don't need to do that call because they now know
#
it so well that they know and they will just tell me what to do
#
of the day normally will end up being
#
things that I have to engage with
#
so for three months when I was doing the play
#
I had to just change that entire day
#
but I informed everybody saying guys I will be
#
sporadically available in this time
#
and because the biggest commitment at that time was
#
given up on Encompass which was my main company and I
#
exited at 100% we were like oh my god
#
but that was you and the umbilical cord
#
and I said no I had sold
#
this company had already
#
left the house a long time ago
#
now I was taking care of it
#
externally I don't need to anymore
#
at some point we need to cut this umbilical cord
#
whatever and now the decision is WPP
#
are they continuing or not continuing their life or whatever
#
there's a bunch of people
#
think I am only mentoring them there's a lot of times
#
that I am just listening to them and getting so whether it's a
#
Pooja who's a very dear
#
friend and who was running Glitch or whatever
#
Nikhil I consider more like
#
and again I will not say these are all mentees these are all
#
people I love to interact with because
#
our work intersects and stuff
#
and there's a host of these people
#
I like to take a little snooze if I can in the afternoon
#
doesn't happen more often than not but
#
if I can't take that half an hour siesta I think nothing
#
beats it I am a tea addict
#
we do have 4-5 cups of tea
#
we have had 4 with you till now
#
and that's how it continues
#
I like to engage with a certain
#
amount of you know that that
#
famous book The Artist's Way
#
had two things one which
#
Sathe in fact said that do something and do it
#
continuously so with her it was morning
#
pages I did morning pages after
#
the film just to break that block and it
#
did help me I did morning pages after
#
clear writing as well and again that
#
really helped me because that's how I got a lot of work
#
done I think but there's a beautiful thing in that
#
which says you know date an art form
#
and I try to do that like yesterday
#
I really wanted to go to the Thespo
#
festival that's happening at
#
Prithvi because I wanted to see
#
Sunbehen because it's a very good play
#
I couldn't see it but I will
#
definitely do something
#
so I think this is how I try
#
my normal routine is this
#
people I was so and I am normally very
#
very polite so I don't normally tell people to
#
there's a simple way of knowing if I am interested
#
or not now which is that if I give you a reply
#
that means I am not interested
#
if I give you a reply I will say
#
let's meet now which means let's meet tomorrow or whatever
#
if I give you a definite yes or no then I am into it
#
again I don't call it work because I want to make a film
#
I want to grow a commune
#
started experiences as a company I will extend that
#
in India because again I feel that there are really no
#
quality experiences and the more I
#
see them the more I realize the gap and I want
#
to fill all of that and I think
#
this is pretty much what we
#
do Shaheen makes sure that in the
#
year we get enough breaks we have enough time
#
to connect with family and stuff and whatever
#
she is the love laughter
#
of these things and honestly I think she is a lot
#
more emotionally grounded
#
but this is an area which currently
#
I am trying to explore because I find this
#
an area which either I am underservicing
#
or is it truly underserviced in people
#
is the thing that I don't have an answer
#
this is the way I sort of
#
that are as I told you that when I
#
discover like I mean see for example this
#
was a very clear 10 million dollars goal I mean
#
I was very clearly told it's a 10 million dollar goal
#
or whatever etc I think I achieved it
#
thing it should be liquid
#
wo nahi hai itni liquidity nahi banayi thi
#
but properties banayi hai
#
ghar hai when nobody is
#
you know there is no hand to mouth you can make
#
your choices or whatever you want to do
#
recently discovered in Dubai because Dubai is now
#
filled with billionaires
#
and billionaires and whatever
#
I try to avoid one or two of those circles
#
because it unnecessarily creates
#
Sathe said the some of these networks exist on a
#
mere paas ye hai, tumhare paas
#
kya hai kind which I hate as a conversation
#
me toh samayiv nahi aata hain you know
#
agar aapko share karna hai toh
#
chalo yeh karte hain saath mein and mere bese bhi
#
dos mein hai they are billionaires but they are like
#
chal yeh saath mein karte hain which is great it doesn't
#
come from a place of privilege it comes
#
from a place of let's do this together and
#
that could be sitting together on a ukulele
#
and singing stupid songs while having wine
#
it could also be going and seeing a play together
#
or doing something you know
#
to a certain degree but
#
I just find that this three flag life
#
concept is something I currently find very
#
intriguing right when somebody
#
said that if winter is your favorite season
#
would you not be able to chase winter through the
#
you would be living in the season of your choice
#
it was fuck off I am choosing my season
#
so what's a fuck off number
#
so I was told it's about 25 million USD
#
which is a lot 200 crores
#
because uske baad aapko kya karoge yaar aur pese ka
#
main saaj bataar aur main to yeh bhi
#
calculate kar chukha hoon because hum log bhot baare discussions
#
hote hain saath hai humare other friends
#
of ours who have done really well
#
main discussion yeh 10, 12, 15 million yeh
#
nahi hote, karta nahi hain
#
kitte nahi chaap rahe hoon
#
that's all you keep saying
#
the thought of discussing money is enough
#
for me no and it's fine
#
I also find that many people are just trying
#
somewhere to peg their own success to yours
#
about, I know so many people who meet
#
me because I know that they are somewhere saying
#
very weird to say but aaj ki roshan hain
#
radio show 2 event karta tha
#
aaj many of them do that today
#
wo 2 podcasts 3 yeh whatever kar rahe hain
#
somewhere they are trying to peg that success
#
now if they want to peg it monetarily
#
fine some of them do try to peg it monetarily
#
sir main tab chaach karoon
#
show ka kya lagta hai aapko
#
and I know what they want to do
#
ke main kya karta hai, would I have done it
#
have I done it, do I do this much or whatever
#
and I am very honest and happy to share
#
sometimes I am told by Shaheen and others
#
my mother says itna maat discuss karo
#
paise aur loon ko whatever
#
I say kya chheen lega yaar
#
sab tax paid hai, kabhi koi alat kaam kiya nahi hai
#
toh mujhe koi darr toh hai
#
nahi nahi, jalan hoti hai, buri nazar lagti hai
#
mujhe yakeen nahi hota hai, sab cheezon mein
#
I just feel that you know
#
and while I am given a lot of
#
sometimes I am given a lot of gyan about
#
being spiritual and religious
#
and whatever, where I have one
#
very old my father put up one poster in
#
Lucknow in our house which said
#
I think F.P. Azmi sahab ka sheer tha, ghar se manzil hai
#
ghar se masjid hai bohot dhur
#
chalo aisa kar lein, kisi rote hua bache ko
#
hasanaaya jaayein. Beautiful and even
#
I understood it. No no it's very simple
#
nahi dekho achi shaheri mujhe kya lagta hai
#
lagta hai ki wo samaj mein aise aajati ho
#
itni khupsurat baat hai. Humanitarianism
#
I think is genuinely the best religion
#
main pachas cheeze karta rehta hu, I don't want
#
consider charity. They are, can you
#
help someone in their education? If a kid has
#
got a thing saying I am doing a photography
#
because I am short of some money and they put up a post
#
somewhere, do an anonymous
#
donation to it or whatever, they'll
#
never know of it but it's fine. When that
#
person posts that first picture you'll know you were
#
good enough and if you can do
#
that it's very fulfilling, main toh bahut karta rehta
#
hain sab cheeze hain. Bada maza aata hai, bade khushi lagta hai.
#
It's very interesting, there's a
#
friend of mine I've known for
#
I don't think you guys would have
#
come across him but I was chatting with him recently
#
and we were all just sharing
#
stories about ourselves and
#
about a side of him I never knew
#
where he said that I like to give away
#
10% of my money every year
#
and he started speaking about all the little things he does
#
and I never knew that side of him because he had
#
never revealed it and he's doing all of it
#
anonymously. Toh kisi ko batana nahi hai
#
kisi ko, matlab signal nahi karna hai
#
logon ko ki see how virtuous I am
#
just quietly batke, MBA hai
#
banker hai, sab kuch hai
#
kone mein batke kar raha hai, kisi ko bataya
#
bhi nahi, you know it took me 15-16
#
years in the course of a very specific conversation
#
and I was very touched by that, I thought that was a
#
lesson because so many of us want
#
to be good so we can show we are good
#
absolutely, I have a theory on that
#
mera theory aisa hai ki which is something
#
that me and Sunandan did
#
we've been doing for the last 15
#
years, what I realized was
#
about USA was they made charity
#
and I think that is important in India
#
and the way to make charity cool is
#
and early IS2 Singh ki batana nahi batana nahi
#
IS2 also not say ki apna apna karo
#
then I realized yaar, log Instagram
#
me photo dali rahe hain, phal tu phal tu
#
photo dali rahe hain, dalne do ki
#
lakh rupee kisi ki education me diya
#
propel karega aur fir agar jaise
#
Warren Buffet de raha hai fir Bill Gates
#
bhi dega fir ye bhi dega ki
#
unki pratistha uske karan
#
acchi cheez ke liye apni pratistha
#
banane me koi problem hai, that's true
#
me and Sunandan actually said that you know
#
tomorrow we did so many fundraisers
#
I mean for Baba Amtesh foundation
#
we raised 4 crore rupees and thankfully
#
you know MS Dhoni supported, Sachin has
#
supported so many things, we had so
#
many projects that we are doing and
#
you will not believe Amit, we used to tell
#
the sponsor, tumhara sab ka
#
photo hum nikal ke denge, tum paisa
#
dalogue to, because for us
#
bolte pipe of change, humare
#
pas khud ke paas nahi, hum thoda sa 5%
#
contribute karenge, but Sunandan
#
said that our duty is to connect
#
jiske paas paisa hai, usko
#
with achha cause, uske kliye
#
agar hum log apni jaan dekhe, photograph
#
bache ka mundan me bhi kisi
#
ko lana pade to, hume koi
#
isme nahi hona chahiye, because the outcome
#
10,000 people are having food
#
and I realised this when
#
and then suddenly the other guy would say
#
kya ho tumhne kiya tha,
#
ye bhi ek charitable hi hai
#
so suddenly that guy paid
#
money for our orphanage foundation
#
that we celebrate people
#
who are giving money or doing
#
something good, because if
#
it creates a chain reaction
#
I know it may not be your personal thing
#
it's your personal choice, but if you can
#
create a movement that's like
#
what it has happened in America
#
of our billionaires start
#
putting money back into society
#
I think we have enough money to take care of our country
#
I think to be honest people like Azim Premji
#
and the Nelikani foundation
#
and all of these people do put a lot of work
#
and they have started this coolness
#
see today in any Azim Premji
#
conversation, what is the first thing
#
you tell him, tell each other
#
not that he built a great company
#
not that he built one of the
#
most successful businesses in the country
#
he has done a great job
#
even for that matter, new age companies are doing it
#
because like you know the other day
#
one of the guys who is an
#
I told him that you know one of the biggest problems
#
of education companies is that the teacher
#
is becoming richer than the student
#
you should be doing the
#
maximum giving it back to society
#
because you are making money through education
#
only then you will put in a word that
#
we are billionaires but we are ploughing it
#
so new age companies, startup companies
#
I interact with, I always tell these guys
#
whatever, that boss when you
#
are getting so much money, put it in
#
because what you will get from it
#
will not get from your billionaireism
#
but he does not understand so much at a young age
#
I will negotiate with you
#
but that I have told all my sponsors
#
you will put money in charity
#
I will do a show for you
#
free, no problem at all
#
that's why many people call me to do this
#
there is a charity, obviously there has to be a
#
genuineness in the charity
#
because even in the name of charity
#
I am going to start Amit Verma podcast fund
#
I will give you the bank account
#
it's the best, if it's a charitable event
#
but nowadays I am doing something new
#
because he doesn't understand where the money goes
#
let me hand over the check to the person
#
he also gets guaranteed
#
and even in all the charitable work
#
that we have done, I don't like to call it
#
charitable work, it's more empowering work
#
the kids, we tell the donor
#
because what happens is
#
when you put up an organization
#
people start suspecting your integrity
#
that is something I get really hurt about
#
that he must have done this
#
you have 40,000, what does a sportsman need?
#
a sportsman's expenses are simple for empowering
#
and when he wants to travel
#
for an international sporting event
#
you need to pay for his fees
#
today the success of Japan against Germany
#
is because all Japanese players are playing
#
and today unless we empower players
#
to play global leagues which cost a lot of money
#
you will never create a champion
#
so now my next project is to make sure
#
that in the sporting ecosystem
#
I am tying up with Go Sports
#
and a few other organizations where
#
we are trying to raise money to
#
look after international expenditure
#
that's a separate thing
#
and you have done it very smartly
#
oh Bavras was a great idea
#
which unfortunately did not
#
continue but the work continued
#
in our individual levels
#
and that happened during a drunken evening
#
was there and in one of the earlier meetings
#
Shreya Ghoshal was there Kaushikki Chakravarthy
#
was there and obviously
#
Roshan you were also there
#
Sameer was there and the whole
#
idea came from actually Shantanu
#
we have been reasonably successful
#
and that is something me and Sunandan
#
were already doing in our little way
#
so I said hey great idea
#
so how do we do it? So we will do concerts
#
and the money that will come out of the concerts
#
who is doing something interesting
#
in unconventional professions
#
and that came from Swanan Kirkire's
#
song Bawra Man Dekhne Chala Ek Sapna
#
that all the Bawras in this world
#
and suddenly I got a call from
#
Shantanu one day that Krishna Patil
#
after climbing Mount Everest
#
she was the youngest to climb Mount Everest at that time
#
money to climb the next mountain
#
which is Mount Makalu which is a tougher
#
mountain Everest relatively in the 8000
#
is an easier mountain though it's the highest
#
for the listeners that's a meme
#
that we have that whenever
#
somebody talks about doing something
#
we say even dogs can climb
#
and once I was called out on it I think
#
when I was at my friend Gaurav Chintamani's
#
studio in Delhi where it was something to the effect
#
of I said even dogs can drink
#
and somebody said no I call you a bluff
#
so I googled and showed the photo
#
video that dog is drinking soil
#
so the basic funda is that
#
dogs can do anything literally
#
but I'm sorry it's a bizarre
#
meme but kindly continue
#
in today's time when everybody
#
is suffering from lot of anxiety issues
#
biggest best profession is
#
Kutta because getting the most
#
best profession is Kutta
#
what do you want to do for a living I want to be
#
anyway so yes you were saying
#
so Bawraz started Krishna Patil
#
actually it was a very emotional story
#
and we were sitting so we asked Krishna
#
how does it feel to be on Mount Everest
#
she said I climb Mount Everest
#
and when I looked down I said how
#
am I going to repay this loan
#
because she had been given loan by
#
I think Saraswat Bank to the extent of
#
30 lakh rupees very expensive to climb Everest
#
climbing Everest if you're worried about
#
how to repay the loan then we've
#
got to do something and that
#
got me thinking as to what we
#
should be doing and we said let's
#
start with a Bawraz concert and
#
we did that concert at Rangsharda
#
to fund that concert and all
#
the money thankfully we had
#
Roshan supporting on the
#
console he did the show I was directing
#
I was just generally console directing
#
crew because I went company came to help
#
as I said Aditya Birla group
#
and all these guys supported we raised
#
money and based on that
#
we collected this corpus and she went to Mount
#
Makalu so that got us very
#
excited but you know fund
#
raising is not an easy thing I
#
spent nearly a month and a half
#
then what happened is this was another
#
very interesting thing we did
#
we tied up with Go Sports and I remember
#
that was the time when Gopichand
#
to even run the academy so
#
the probably the Andhra government
#
and all had given him all the infrastructure but
#
running costs and all is not easy
#
to build so many champions and
#
so Go Sports said that can you do
#
an event so we did one event in
#
Smash where Ankur Tiwari
#
and Arpita and Justlean
#
Royale I got them to perform
#
Swannand also performed and we raised
#
money and can you imagine at that
#
point of time it was some 8-10
#
lakhs or something like that to be raised
#
Hyderabad had come down
#
for this event and we presented
#
the cheque to Go Sports who had an
#
association with Gopichand and now today
#
Gopichand probably would
#
be charging thrice that amount for his
#
personal experience so I would I'm very
#
proud to say that in the initial years
#
of the badminton movement we played
#
a very small role in kind of
#
doing that we then raised money for
#
I think three or four very
#
smart IIT guys by doing a concert
#
so this continued for a while
#
realized we were getting too busy
#
that we needed that boss if
#
we get 2 crore rupees then we can
#
line up concerts but the money
#
problem will be solved because I can take
#
artist's time to do concerts
#
but then to sell it and all was
#
taking too much of my time and that's why
#
it kind of took a back seat also the
#
three bhavras were bhavras right
#
these bhavras are doing their own work
#
whatever they are doing and they are
#
artists who are busy also and you know
#
commune was also we were
#
discussing all these ideas about how do we
#
enable so with me it was how do we enable
#
creators with him it was how do we
#
enable anybody who has a cause
#
or a purpose which is worthwhile therefore
#
it was sports and I can see it comes from
#
what is your subset of interest right so
#
with them it seemed to have become sports
#
for a period of time and honestly even today
#
while bhavras might be more in spirit
#
but I often see them doing
#
even when they have these couple of
#
they keep meeting each other
#
in that I see that bhavra's spirit
#
you know when it's you and there's Shreya
#
and there's that Aditya
#
gentleman Mr Ghosh and all of
#
these people I see that he's still got that
#
net work baby he'll work it again see
#
what started the issue was
#
may yeh kar sakta hu yeh yeh kar sakte aap iske
#
so that is it that I think I think
#
somewhere that that becomes a bit of a thing
#
hurdle of saying then I have to go into the
#
entrepreneur which he doesn't want which I don't want
#
to do and that stops me from taking
#
any idea to the next level
#
because the moment you become an entrepreneur
#
goes and that is why Roshan Abbas
#
is special because he can manage
#
both these because he's good at delegation
#
and because he has those
#
I don't have those goals. Mujhe kya ek basic
#
security chahiye aur samne wala
#
achha ticket bejke duniya mein ghumaye
#
I feel you are just like me except
#
actually one more thing you know what happens
#
yeh maine usko yeh cheez batayi thi
#
bahut pehle kya hota hai
#
and it's a thing I had to
#
I was taught over a period of time because I remember
#
once or twice speaking to
#
people who I would say were similar in terms
#
of they were entrepreneurs and they were performers
#
and I would say that what is
#
the difference that you do. So I said listen
#
when I enter a business meeting
#
I leave my showman, I leave my
#
performer quote outside
#
but I put the rest of that baggage of being a performer
#
outside because if you actually start
#
evaluating for satay it would be
#
easier to go four days do a show and
#
give that money because that would be equivalent
#
to that amount. No Roshan you need to like
#
that. Exactly it's the same thing
#
creation and putting that that's why
#
you say no execution execution execution
#
you like to do that process I get
#
bored by that. I also tell him
#
like for example I said you know and this was another thing
#
one of our common friends once said
#
we were having a chat and he said he says
#
me and my ex-partner in my business Sukrit
#
he used to say hum log jab hall ke
#
andar hota hai na aakhon mein chamak hoti hai
#
chukke hum wo light dekh ki
#
gin raha hota hai agar chaar yahaan par hoti the yeh hota tha
#
agar kursi mein hoga toh yeh uskta
#
temperature you are playing because
#
we are experiential people we like to play
#
and therefore the more you put us outside
#
humara bias for action isi liye hai
#
ki humko wo karna hota. You know I'll tell you one thing
#
Bawra has happened and the only role I had to play
#
was that kis din karna hai
#
and he said yeh date free
#
and we booked the date remember
#
and I said the date is now booked at Rangshan
#
and then you did it but nahi yeh nahi karta
#
2 maine 3 maine but it was that you know you have to put
#
the gun to his head just for that reason
#
and again it's that but again it's a very clear
#
bias for him. I know for a fact that one day when I meet
#
somebody who says that hey this idea is
#
amazing I am going to put 2 crores
#
let's do 4 concerts everybody will come
#
I have also not taken effort because it takes
#
a lot of effort. I think you
#
know Varun Grover in his episode
#
with me had given this great quote
#
about which he heard from somewhere
#
I love the writing but I don't like the paper work
#
so I think you know you and
#
I are kind of in that same boat
#
our man Roshan here has done the writing
#
done the paper work. That's why he has more paper work
#
besides your extreme productivity
#
the other thing which I am very
#
sort of impressed by and
#
something we can all learn from
#
is the hunger for new experiences
#
So tell me a little bit about
#
you know Monsoon Wedding
#
Meera and I directed musical which is going to Broadway
#
now. You know how that came about
#
what was the experience like what were your learnings
#
that creative curiosity. So see like
#
this festival which you are
#
already a part of as I mentioned to you
#
we are doing this next year in fact. But the idea
#
was it's a festival of creative curiosity and
#
everybody said you know what 2-3 people who
#
worked with me said aapko jo jo
#
apne ghar pe karna hota usko aap expand karke
#
festival malha dete ho. I said haa yaar
#
mujhe wo lagta hai. But this need
#
creatively because you know
#
when you make a little bit of money you get
#
approached by so many of these funds and everybody
#
who comes and says sir aap
#
ek lagayenge me uska 100 banatunga.
#
main ko botta ho sir aap na mujhe return
#
nahi desakte jo meera dimaag deta hai
#
mera dimaag zero ko 100 banata hai
#
toh wo multiplier aap kabhi laahi nahi
#
sakte hai. Wo multiplier kahan se
#
aata hai. That multiplier comes only
#
it comes to learning and I have childlike enthusiasm
#
this year it had started
#
with me after Dubai when
#
we did one or two concerts and actually
#
I spent a lot of time with Veer and Veer
#
has a lot to do so the day we were doing
#
the Veerdas event the first day
#
unfortunately His Excellency
#
the head of Abu Dhabi passed
#
away and they in the day it
#
happened and by the evening they said no shows will happen
#
and we had already said we won't do an event.
#
So Veer came home and we were talking
#
and then in conversation he was telling about the television show
#
he is making and about his New York special
#
and I mean the most amazing story about
#
Chris Rock where he went to their Comedy
#
Central performance place in New York and he said
#
you know I was there and I was going to perform
#
and they had about 5 performers with 5
#
5 minute or 10, 5 performers with 10
#
10 minute slots and they said you got a surprise
#
act for the rest of the evening
#
and suddenly they came and said guys we are
#
knocking off all the acts before
#
because Chris Rock is performing and he is going to come
#
and Chris Rock is legend in life.
#
ultimately I went and I was like you know
#
they said will you just
#
introduce Chris Rock so he went and he did
#
the 5 minute set before Chris Rock
#
and then when it finished they said will you also close
#
so he said you know he said
#
I closed for Chris Rock
#
so his wife was sitting there and he said no
#
Veer's the same thing about Veer
#
his bias for action and his ability to keep doing
#
Edinburgh Fringe is happening let's go
#
and I've always wanted to go to the Fringe
#
and every year I've had this thing because August used to be work
#
time and kids used to come back from vacation
#
so I said I'm going to go for a
#
fact and I went for 10 days
#
so much experimental theatre
#
7 days. I had a backpack
#
I used to get up at breakfast and go
#
whatever show I used to get because you know you can't pre book
#
and I stood in lines for 2-2 hours
#
you're meeting waiters who are trying stand up comedy
#
from New York who have flown down to do their
#
experimental set. A girl who's 19
#
who's written her first play and been called
#
somebody who's been there at the SPM for 30 years
#
standing on the road and distributing his tickets
#
you have to go to a Fringe
#
just to experience this
#
madness of a city coming alive
#
with the arts. I think somewhere
#
there in my head this wanting to get back to theatre
#
because I've been offered a lot of plays to do here in Bombay
#
and things but I was like here
#
whatever I had to do here I did because honestly after doing
#
Aladdin and before that a lot of other things
#
I was like what will I do after this
#
you know Prithvi did, single play
#
happened from Dilip Shankar and he said Roshan
#
you know they're looking for somebody to
#
do this and I called Amol who sort of
#
manages my work at Commune and many other
#
artists and he was like sir
#
I want to give you a month
#
and that is when the first big
#
2 months in Bombay and this was
#
premiering at the World Cup at Doha
#
because it was part of the Qatar Creates
#
thing and then we were told that next
#
year which is in April-May
#
it will go off Broadway which is the process
#
you go off Broadway then producers
#
come then if they selected then it goes on Broadway
#
then there will be an India tour and a global
#
tour and the way Meera has lived with this
#
story ever since the film was made and the
#
play has happened twice before but
#
in smaller avatars so Berkeley they did a show
#
where Javed Jafri played Lalit
#
and Javed is a very good dancer
#
and Namit was there from that show only
#
and Sharwari was there and many other actors
#
I think at that point in time Ali
#
Sethi was being considered for something
#
as a role and beautiful
#
shows there for 6 weeks, they were
#
powerful shows that I had heard of
#
the script was still evolving then in 2019
#
they did Delhi, they did 12 shows
#
again completely new and
#
see with theatre, unless
#
you are in a resident theatre space
#
the play changes to adapt to the place
#
and Qatar was going to be
#
a revolving stage, LED screens
#
it was Meera's biggest vision
#
and therefore the fact of being
#
part of that vision, being part of
#
a film that I had loved to watch
#
acting, singing, dancing
#
he came and he said that Roshan
#
we are treating this as an ensemble cast
#
which means that while you might be playing a very
#
significant role, there will be other scenes
#
where you might be playing a peon and walking on
#
with a suitcase and whatever, are you comfortable
#
with that, I said I don't
#
have anything like that, I said I don't mind
#
so I did the audition, I was by myself
#
in Dubai, there was no one there, I called my friend
#
who used to act with me in theatre 25 years ago
#
we did a print out of the script, he sat opposite
#
I did a decent audition, then with the songs
#
I had to sing, I took 2-3 extra
#
days to learn the songs
#
my daughter reviewed them online and
#
passed them saying yeah it's decent
#
that's when I, there was a song
#
which is towards the end
#
so when I heard it for the first time
#
so this raga is based on the country
#
so when I heard it for the first time
#
I felt a little bit like
#
still I think I'm singing
#
half note lower than the thing
#
which is the music of Nishal Bhardwaj
#
there were a lot more songs
#
all the other songs that I had
#
ensemble songs were beautiful
#
so when I committed to it
#
I realized that I'm doing this with love of theater
#
theater it was paying, but theater pays you
#
theater money, and there is a beautiful line
#
that I read in a broadway article because after this
#
I researched broadway first
#
what happens, how it happens, how much it happens
#
all that, so it was very clear
#
that in broadway you can't make a living, you can make a killing
#
can be earning a great sum of money
#
sometimes people who work at Prithvi
#
get a thousand rupees a show
#
so there is no comparison
#
I'm comfortable with this as long as I can get
#
four days off to do my regular
#
event work because I still
#
thankfully as a live event host get paid well
#
and I made sure that I get enough of these shows
#
you know I don't like living off interest
#
I like to live off my current earnings
#
so that was something which we took care of
#
they were very accommodating, they gave me the dates
#
I came to Mumbai, we started doing
#
for a month we rehearsed there
#
and suddenly we had everyone from
#
Emily Whitaker our music director
#
Carrie Anne who is actually the movement
#
director and the choreographer for Six
#
which is a Tony nominated
#
play and I mean as one a couple of
#
Tonys as well, plus there was
#
Shampa Gopikrishna who was the other director
#
who was the other choreographer
#
brilliant brilliant set of musicians
#
who were working with us on a daily basis
#
and the cast, I mean frankly I have never
#
worked with a more eclectic
#
set of people, more talented
#
because you know I have
#
done plays before where there will be
#
and then you know he has ego
#
he will fight, he will argue, he will
#
temper tantrum, he will come late
#
small things will happen but
#
so there is a saying in poker
#
if you don't know who is the fish at the table it's you
#
so I think if you don't know who is the bad one
#
these are the two beautiful stories
#
10-15 days and Namit was playing P.K. Dube
#
which was the beautiful role by Vijay Raaz
#
I am playing Naseer Saab's role
#
Charu Shankar was playing my wife, brilliant
#
actress from Delhi, person I knew
#
before as well also because you know we worked
#
on one or two other projects, small projects
#
earlier but Lillet ji's
#
role is there, Sharwari was
#
playing Shifali Shah's role, I mean
#
and honestly everybody, Kulbhushan Kaminda
#
's role Sagar Deshmukh, fabulous cast
#
playing the love interest and Mansi Multani
#
playing the daughter Aditi
#
again like I can't, I can go on
#
and on about each of these people, each of these people are
#
Pia Bhairupia, World Tour, so and so
#
and the Beast lead, these are all people
#
in between them there is Roshan Ammar
#
this whole thing of saying let's learn
#
some people don't like it
#
consider everyone like a family, so I am very
#
empathetic or whatever, so if someone needs
#
something, I will tell them, it comes from here
#
before Dua, one day Navitu Siddiqui
#
what is that deep dark hidden
#
I mean, something will happen
#
what should I say, I am like this
#
No, Roshan Bhai, I don't talk
#
that whole day they all wait after
#
what is your habit or whatever
#
I said, you have to ask Shaheen Waheen
#
because maybe they will know that
#
this Waheen, I mean my parents, my Delezees
#
rehearsed here, I managed to get
#
my parents here to come for the dress rehearsal
#
which happened at Andrews, Vishalji
#
attended that show, Nasir Muni
#
Kabir came for it, many other
#
everybody was allowed to invite 2-3 people, so my parents
#
Shaheen had an exhibition in Dubai
#
so she said she will come to Dua, my parents
#
flew in from Lucknow, so for me
#
the fact that my parents, my dad in 82
#
took a flight on my mom and
#
came, was itself the biggest
#
and the performance really went off well
#
because by this time it had become muscle
#
it needs to become muscle memory for you
#
you have to go from point A to point B
#
and it's the only medium, so in fact one day
#
when Meera was directing, when one actor came
#
and said that you know, there is so much direction
#
right now, we will see it in the play
#
so the girl turned and said
#
she said you know, ultimately
#
theatre is the only medium where the actor
#
has control, because nobody stops you
#
they can't stop the scene and say
#
no, it's you, and I said
#
I have never thought of this
#
so I know I have to go from here to here
#
what craft can I use in it
#
how aware am I of my body
#
how am I standing, where am I looking
#
and you know I swear to you
#
I have never enjoyed the craft as much
#
there is a scene in which I am running after Rhea
#
it's a very, it's just a very pillared
#
kind of metallic structure
#
there was a light at the bottom
#
what I started doing was
#
and after that the light was on
#
so a man is standing in the dark
#
a light is on on Sunday and I turn in it
#
so you can see my half lit face
#
see I have imagined this and I have told someone
#
now this is where you are playing with the thing
#
I just have to go and tell her Rhea
#
please come, Rhea, Rhea please
#
and then I turn slowly as the music
#
but that is where you enjoy
#
the craft and frankly when we did the performance
#
Roshan, we have done this show three times
#
but this was a big thing for me
#
came to me and at that time she turned and said
#
you are the essence of Lallit for me
#
and obviously a director says
#
things to all their actors to motivate
#
the first day she sat and did a session with me
#
she said you know Lallit and Pimmie's love
#
but it's also very disregarded
#
this was such a big thing
#
she didn't tell me to behave like this with her
#
this was enough direction
#
enough direction for that relationship
#
it's a classic show don't tell
#
and she does it with everyone
#
Dubai have the Marigold flower
#
and so cheap in the eyes of everyone
#
Marigold flower is not expensive
#
there are so many things
#
like understanding of music
#
that was on a different level
#
sometimes I used to have a directorial mind
#
don't start directing in your mind
#
but in the off times I would sit with an Emily
#
and say so how does musical theatre work in the US
#
whatever and now as I said I want to do
#
musical theatre workshops next year and let's see
#
what happens with all that should we do a play I don't know
#
but all that will happen
#
but when we reached Doha it was a brand new
#
challenge because new auditorium
#
brand new placement, brand new plotting
#
technicals all of this started
#
and the challenge of World Cup
#
is happening is your visa done or not
#
in the middle of which Spokane Fest is going on here
#
so my lunch breaks used to be how much sponsorship
#
who wants to call I will call
#
but I would only use that one otherwise
#
I would be totally immersed in the play
#
again Sourav, Varun the entire team here
#
without Tess and Shantanu the curation would not have
#
happened for Spokane and so what they
#
build is absolutely unique so they
#
created that but they gave me the space
#
to do this when we started
#
the day the show happened
#
Meera walked on stage at the premiere
#
and danced on stage with us
#
and I know her she is very very fun
#
and then I got that one hug on
#
just you know in my ear she turned and
#
said she says you were impeccable and
#
to me that was, for me it was a very big
#
thing because from where I was coming
#
I was thinking that either she will take me out
#
or I will leave because there was a lot of pressure
#
I have to dance, I have to do this
#
she knows I am not a dancer
#
I can do two steps with her
#
but I am not a dancer but I played it
#
as a father of a bride who is an
#
average dancer that's fine you can
#
play like that so that happened
#
immense amount of learning
#
very very satisfying and very humbling
#
right so I think that whole
#
thing of learning new things comes
#
in this manner it has been
#
incredible and we are now all waiting to
#
see whether the show is definitely
#
happening in April now it's a matter of how many
#
Queen Anne theatre people where it is going to be
#
done had come they loved the show
#
we had lots of discussions with
#
them and these are discussions where we are talking about
#
the tapestry of the show what do you feel
#
you know what would you
#
have done in this, aisa kar sakte the
#
and she has played with the place
#
so much now over these years that she has got
#
spoiled for choice about scenes and other things
#
that we could do absolutely I mean
#
I could not have asked for a better
#
learning creative experience
#
at the age of 52 you know so
#
I'm really happy about it and hoping next
#
year that we get what's called a call back
#
the actor call back will happen for all of us
#
but it's a union driven thing
#
so we also need to wait for how many
#
how many actors get because you know you have
#
a limited number of international actors you can take and all
#
this but we are all sitting and praying and
#
onsa union hai CM se baat
#
it's not like we will come
#
kaun sa aap ke paas hai card hai ke nahi
#
yeah what I found impressive
#
about your stories of this play is
#
how you were able to go
#
through an unlearning and learning process
#
especially with regard to singing
#
tell me a little bit about that
#
no you see the first thing is that
#
and Indian classical singing
#
unique combination in this play
#
to sing on an out breath, one tells you to sing on
#
aap jab gaate na aap jab
#
raag wajra kar rahe hain
#
actually told me this see sir
#
yeh aap pe cheez hai to yeh sunke
#
seekhna padta hai then what happens is that
#
western singing is a lot
#
had come down and whatever for the play
#
and he was watching it from a third
#
and he said you know I will tell you one thing I have seen a lot of broadway
#
it has so much technique
#
he says you all have so much heart
#
and this is the truth because
#
opera singers and the head voice
#
and this voice and all that
#
we sing with open heart
#
was nowhere else and when this whole thing
#
was happening about learning the singing
#
we had Marianne who was this lovely teacher
#
in Bombay who was telling us how to sing
#
and she was taking extra
#
classes with a few of us who had weaker
#
voices which included me and another
#
couple of actors and we were allowed
#
to ask for more classes and I took more classes
#
and learnt that to a certain degree
#
working and you are harmonising
#
you know now there is a song in which
#
no matter where you journey
#
there is a song called Arnman
#
so that is going on and I am not going to break it
#
no matter where you journey
#
you are going to play bass, somebody else is soprano
#
and when you see that come together
#
we had a day which was called a
#
oh my god, it was called a
#
sitzprobe, we said this sounds
#
rather weird, sitzprobe is what are we doing
#
where will you do the probe
#
so we found out that sitzprobe is
#
the day when the musicians and the singers
#
come together as a group for the first time
#
otherwise they perform individually
#
which is what we were doing, rehearsing with the piano and stuff
#
and we would do vocal exercises in the morning
#
vocal exercises in the morning etc
#
used to happen, but the day the sitzprobe
#
happened is the day I actually put up my post
#
on Instagram where I said you know 3 months of doing
#
Fernanda Douglas who is a brilliant
#
teacher, absolutely brilliant
#
sitting with me and telling me when I was
#
singing this, again this song
#
Meera used to say, say the whole word
#
Angan starts with me singing
#
now when you are coming and saying lines
#
and walking and breathing
#
comes in time, whatever and stuff
#
but she told me, she said listen, the word is
#
and she would just make me visualise it
#
and four walls and the sun
#
now the expanse of the sky
#
should come in that word
#
I don't think about all this
#
and I used to sing more power
#
you used to bring the qualities of playback
#
a lot, whatever we hear
#
when people tell us before the show
#
that's Sonu, because he
#
Sonu Dikka I remember was doing a bunch of shows with us
#
for Toyota and backstage
#
and he is talking to you
#
and I was like what happened
#
and he is standing backstage walking to the stage
#
and that he has learned from
#
I still feel that I am not good enough
#
can you give an example of something which you sang one way then and now you sing it
#
Ria my child my life my own
#
the child should be child
#
and he said you know in one rehearsal Vishal ji sang it
#
and I just heard it and I was like oh my god
#
and I swear to you I used to sing and the audience used to cry
#
you know that the person is talking to his child
#
which means that when I can't hit a note
#
but I was not allowed I had to hold
#
back and do it and there is only
#
one line in this which is where I am actually
#
saying come home with me
#
you are crying that he is not coming
#
and right after that there is a beautiful speech
#
and again and Meera used to
#
finish the song and I would come into the speech
#
she says stay in that moment
#
and I was like but there is a beat
#
she says Roshan the musicians will
#
we know that we have to come on three or four
#
and the ability to feel
#
Shaheen watched the first show
#
then she watched one more show
#
then came for the third show
#
then we had a double show and she couldn't
#
because she slept and she was so upset
#
if Shaheen saw three shows
#
and my wife is very loving
#
but she is also very critical of my work
#
and each day when she came back
#
she was like I could see that she had cried her eyes out
#
all our friends were here when will it happen in India
#
and whenever it happens here
#
Insha Allah I will be able to show everyone the same thing
#
so hopefully November in India next year
#
I don't know but it was very good
#
I am saying please note
#
how many Shaheen saw the three shows
#
I will tell you something
#
there were a lot of Waheens
#
which were Qatari ladies
#
so what happened one day
#
the actors have small joys
#
one gets a big applause
#
when you take your curtain bow
#
does the audience's applause increase
#
we have also given the last curtain bow
#
which is a very big thing
#
you are taking off your make up and going out
#
from where we used to go
#
there was a way which you could just go anonymously
#
but as an actor you don't want to do that
#
you want to almost bump
#
and you do it for that audience
#
these ladies were there
#
so suddenly the manager said
#
can you do some pictures
#
people used to take their hands and
#
now there are Qatari ladies
#
I stood in front of them like this
#
and they took pictures of me
#
as if I was a specimen in a museum
#
very happy, thank you so much
#
it was just solo pictures
#
with me standing like this
#
then there were all our
#
I was watching you from Delhi on the radio
#
there was also an audience
#
but the happiness was too much
#
so the ladies were like this
#
tell me about your journey through music
#
because what I have noticed is that you sing damn well
#
I know that you would sing as a kid and all of that
#
you did all of these things with the Bhavras
#
so you weren't singing obviously
#
or were you singing also?
#
no I was not singing with them because they were very good singers
#
kindly do Bhimshan Joshi
#
influence because of the classical
#
unfortunately what happened was when she was
#
doing her Riyaz I would sing
#
those songs and I would go
#
and at one point of time she started cursing me
#
because she also started singing wrongly
#
can you sing us an example?
#
I basically can't give you
#
an example because this was some
#
it was not this I think it was a
#
Malkauns or something like that
#
which I had completely messed it up for her
#
but Bhimshan Joshi was somebody
#
6 am in the morning and
#
he had this unique ability
#
and he was damn funny right when he was in
#
once I believe he pulled
#
tabla wala and stuff like that and tabla wala
#
was playing and he was getting dragged
#
while he was playing his tabla but
#
he had this unique style you know
#
That was the great Mishra and Bhimshan Joshi
#
You need a video portion of this
#
to see the facial expressions
#
We need a video portion of this
#
It kind of became more of imitating
#
when Roshan and we were all together we sing
#
everybody from S.G.Burman to
#
because I am a huge Shankar Mahadevan fan
#
the kind of work that he's done
#
I must tell you because he doesn't want to give up his entire
#
but the bit that he does about
#
so he does this whole various singers
#
and their levels of constipation and why they
#
So yeah this was an act I used to do
#
I'm sorry to give you all your
#
Don't even do this act anymore
#
suffers from constipation and the
#
first stage is Kumar Sanu
#
If this guy can constipate I can
#
The song from Lagaan started
#
But see what happened to it
#
Vaat laga di constipation ki
#
Which was hugely popular
#
With a little bit of constipation
#
Like the same song that you sang Rosh
#
So extended constipation Sonu Nigam
#
I would not even touch Himesh Reshmi
#
Because it would be an incurable disease
#
And then one song that kind of united
#
Baavra man dekhne chala ek sapna
#
Baavre se man ki dekho baavri hai baate
#
Baavri se dhadkane hai baavri hai saanse
#
Baavre se karvato se nindiya kyun bhaage
#
Baavre se naincha hai baavre jarokon se
#
Baavre nazaron ko takna
#
Baavre man dekhne chala ek sapna
#
See I didn't put the base with his soprano
#
Roshan bhai aap bhi ek gaado
#
Which is very dear to my heart
#
It was my way of expressing my frustration
#
And my temperature used to go from 100 to 104
#
So Nilesh our friend used to say that
#
Through his singing I would know
#
My temperature is 101, 102, 103 or whatever
#
Mitwaaa, kahe dharkane tuj se kyaa
#
Mitwaaa, yeh khud se toh na tu chhupa aaa
#
Abhiye thoda-thoda. Abhiye...
#
But Amit, how can we forget Baljeet?
#
I guess. I've been waiting.
#
First, let's tell the history of Baljeet.
#
Actually, both of us have a bad memory.
#
But we know that we had made a cult.
#
How it was made, why it was made, two cults were made.
#
One was called Conehead and the other one was called Baljeet.
#
And one was called Parpitaram.
#
Parpitaram was there but it was an accounting company.
#
It was a front-face company.
#
So, in a time, Amit Varma used to not only diet.
#
He even tried to exercise once.
#
And this was probably 20 years back.
#
And one fine day we decided that let's exercise.
#
And let's not let the feeling pass, we'll exercise.
#
So, we felt like exercising and both started jogging in the morning.
#
It's been two days, three days.
#
No, it was a bit of a momentum shift that why do we have to jog.
#
But then at the joggers park in Lokhandwala, we met a guy who gave us tea.
#
And somewhere at some point of time when we turned, we realized that he had a conical head.
#
Yeah, we started calling him Conehead.
#
Because his head was a cone.
#
Like you would see in the Star Trek films, I think, but very pronounced.
#
So, after that, it became like a thing.
#
That there is no mood for jogging.
#
Who will get up early in the morning?
#
And if we don't sell his tea, we'll feel guilty.
#
So, for just this, whatever.
#
Sometimes I think he was an imaginary character.
#
No, no, I remember Conehead.
#
And because of Conehead, we went for two months of jogging.
#
And that guy became like an underlying, what do you call it?
#
Conscience keeper in our life.
#
That if we ever had a lack of motivation, we would remember that Conehead is there for us.
#
That's why we have to go.
#
And I'm sure before every recording, Amit remembers Conehead.
#
But now I will because you have said it.
#
But the Baljeet is a more interesting story because that actually there was a Baljeet song and a Baljeet dance.
#
So he will sing it for us, but no, I won't dance.
#
But the lines were that Baljeet is my brother, I am Baljeet's sister, Sanam is disloyal.
#
I have no freaking idea how we came up with the lines.
#
But this was me and Vikram.
#
This was for both of us.
#
So the day I left MTV, not the day I left, but my last day in MTV, we decided to dance a little on this.
#
So I remember we got Yasmin Jain, who was the head of production.
#
Hemant Kinkre and Saurabh.
#
And I think one more person.
#
And they paid tribute to his exit.
#
So we all and I still remember the steps.
#
So we did a we did a dance.
#
We did a dance to Baljeet.
#
And yeah, it was a very poignant moving moment because it was my last day there.
#
But we have carried Baljeet with us.
#
Yeah, we have carried Baljeet with us.
#
And you know, it so happened that one day Amit and we used to drive from Lokhandwala to MTV.
#
And for some strange reason, one day we started calling each other Baljeet.
#
Because I used to call him Amit, he used to call me Vikram.
#
What Baljeet, what's going on?
#
So he said, yes Baljeet, everything is fine.
#
So Baljeet became a binding factor between us.
#
And then there was this song in the 90s, if you remember.
#
My beloved, unfaithful.
#
The film Sanam Bevafa Ka.
#
I think it was Salman Khan.
#
So Sanam Bevafa Ka's song got into Baljeet.
#
One evening at 8 o'clock.
#
And then, as you said, what's your word, acting?
#
Even we had a triple threat.
#
Even we had a triple threat.
#
Seriously, it was a threat actually.
#
It was a threat, dancing.
#
And then came this legendary sound.
#
But we don't know why this is the reference of Baljeet and Baljeet's sister.
#
But the song and the dance sequence was clapping.
#
So Baljeet is my brother.
#
We still don't know why Baljeet existed.
#
Why this dance existed.
#
But I think the best farewell Amit Verma has ever received in his life.
#
It's the greatest farewell in the history of MTV.
#
And if you remember, it went downhill from there.
#
Roadies, Vodies, everything came after that.
#
That was like, Baljeet was a high point.
#
And if Baljeet has been mentioned, then Jack and Jill has been mentioned as well.
#
So I think, actually, just like Sathe had developed his act.
#
So I used to host many years before that.
#
And it started in Lucknow College Festival.
#
Where I had to go on stage.
#
And I used to go to festivals for money.
#
I used to know that I was getting Rs.200 or Rs.500.
#
I used to get Rs.1000 in pocket money and it used to get supplemented.
#
But you used to go for money.
#
No, girls colleges used to have more opportunities.
#
I am sorry to be very honest.
#
But I used to go to Lucknow and suddenly this thing happened.
#
You know, I saw a brilliant actor.
#
And I mean, I don't know what happened to him.
#
But there was an actor from Aligarh Muslim University.
#
He came on stage in mono acting.
#
He did so well that he was able to do.
#
He used to say that I am coming up and playing Jekyll and Hyde.
#
And he would first do Jekyll and then do Hyde.
#
And then he acts amazing.
#
I don't know how he could do it.
#
But he could keep one half of his face absolutely straight
#
and only contort the other half.
#
So we looked at him and said, no one can win with this.
#
You think this guy is Baljeet?
#
You know, but I swear, but you know Sathe is a twist.
#
And I have never seen a better mono actor.
#
So I looked at him and said, look, there is no chance of winning.
#
So let's go and entertain.
#
So I went on stage and I think this was the first time that...
#
So Jack and Jill became a story where I would get on stage.
#
And this has lasted me till...
#
Even I think I don't host corporate events in that manner.
#
Now I only go for talks.
#
But till I did, any moment,
#
whether it be a fashion show, a corporate event,
#
Malaykar Roja's clothes backstage are not ready,
#
the dancer has not come, the light is not working.
#
So I asked Roshan to send me to the stage and he said, boss, you have to handle it.
#
And I said, for how long?
#
So I don't know, because Jack and Jill is me doing Jack and Jill
#
in as many singers as possible.
#
If I've heard the singer, people respond to the tune.
#
Because sometimes the tonality, obviously, I don't end up getting.
#
But they respond to the tune if I can do it.
#
And the story used to be that, you know, just like the stars are gathered in this hall.
#
So it would be at a conference or if it's a show,
#
all these lovely people were gathered in this hall.
#
Just like that, once there was an auditorium which was filled with a great audience.
#
But there was another auditorium, unfortunately, next to it, which was filled with children.
#
And all these musical stars had to go and collect their awards at this galaxy of stars.
#
But they ended up at the children's auditorium.
#
And when the curtain went up, there were only children who were looking at them.
#
And they said, oh my God, what do we do?
#
And they said, boss, we're entertainers and we have to entertain.
#
So kids are kids, if we don't know the lyrics, then Jack and Jill must know.
#
So we'll come up with our own style and perform Jack and Jill.
#
So I'll say a couple of things and then you can request.
#
So various singers and Vikram, you can always give us your requests as we go along.
#
So the first person who got up to do Jack and Jill was Elvis Presley.
#
And Elvis reached up on stage and this is what he said.
#
Well, Jack and Jill, they both went up the hill.
#
Jill, she broke her crown, it was a Jack and Jill.
#
Went up the hill, shoo-bee-doo-bop-doo, a-dee-dub-da-doo.
#
So Elvis would be the first person who went up to do it.
#
And then one would turn and say that the next person who came on was Stevie Wonder.
#
And Stevie Wonder, you know, had this big grin on his face at every point.
#
And he came on and this is what he did with Jack and Jill.
#
He said, well, Jack and Jill went up that hill.
#
And Jack fell down and Jill, she broke her crown.
#
And Jack and Jill went up that hill.
#
And Jack fell down and Jill, she broke her crown.
#
Jack and Jill, they both went up that hill, yeah, yeah, yeah.
#
Jack and Jill, they both went up that hill.
#
And I mean it from the bottom of my heart.
#
Michael Jackson was a very famous performer from Bihar with his original name was Michael
#
He got a visa from the American Embassy, came back to Michael Jackson.
#
And I used to crack one very bad joke, which I'm going to do in the video.
#
Which is about his favorite song being in Elton John song, don't let the sun go.
#
But I was so anyway, so I will not open, but I will.
#
So, so, so basically this was Michael Jackson got up and he did his version.
#
while Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water and Jack fell down and he broke
#
his crown and Jill came tumbling after Jill came tumbling after Jill came tumbling after Jack Jack
#
come on everybody is Jack and the whole world wants to tell you right now that the guy fell
#
down it's Jack so Michael Jackson happened so there was Khalid who would have his sister crush
#
and therefore would sing Jack and Jill went up the hill Jack fell down and he broke his crown Jill
#
came tumbling after Jack then Jill then Jill they both went up the hill and Jill they both went up
#
the hill. Shanker Mahadevan who was going dremalous in those days and he said Jack and Jill they both
#
went up they went up the hill and Jack fell down and broke his crown and Jill came tumbling after
#
Jack and Jill they both went Jack and Jill they both went up the they went up the hill together
#
Jack fell down and broke his crown Jill came tumbling after Jack and Jack and Jill they both
#
Both went up that hill together.
#
Jack fell down and broke his crown.
#
And so this was, we used to do this.
#
And then, it's kind of my favorite.
#
Oh, yeah, of course, ALTAF RAJA.
#
I did ALTAF as well, so.
#
They both went up the hill.
#
They went up the hill too.
#
Together, together, together, together.
#
Jack fell down and Jill, Jill, she broke her crown.
#
And finally, dollar mehendi.
#
Dollar mehendi, because they used to earn in dollar,
#
they used to sing on mehendi ceremony.
#
Rehna, Rehna, Jack, Jack and Jill, Jack, Jack and Jill.
#
Jack, Jack and Jill, Jack, Jack and Jill.
#
Jack, you know he went up the hill and Jill, she fell down
#
and Jack broke his crown.
#
Jack, Jack and Jill, Jack, Jack and Jill.
#
Jack, Jack and Jill, Jack, Jack and Jill.
#
They both went up the hill, up the hill, up the hill.
#
Up the hill, up the hill, up the hill.
#
Jack fell down, Jill broke her crown,
#
and they came tumbling after.
#
After, after, after, after, after, after, after.
#
Tunak, tunak, tun, tun, tunak, tun, tunak, tun, tun.
#
Amazing, amazing, amazing.
#
So these were the infinite versions of Jack and Jill
#
until the audience was not tired, or we were not tired,
#
or we used to say, this gentleman is like a rogue.
#
These are old stage tactics.
#
What all did you not do?
#
You made a good Christmas, you made a New Year's party,
#
Amazing, everything is done for me.
#
So, you know, I've taken enough of your time,
#
so I think I can finally begin to let you go.
#
But, you know, if for people watching this,
#
especially young people watching this,
#
given that we are old fogies, however much you may disagree,
#
Roshan, if you had to, no, I'm kidding,
#
but if you had to sort of, from all the things
#
that you've learned in your life,
#
give advice to young people today, you know,
#
what are the, like, if you had to talk to a young Roshan
#
who's 20 years old, what advice would you give him?
#
Honestly, to a young Roshan, though,
#
it would be, do exactly what you did,
#
because frankly, I had a very, very fulfilled life.
#
But if it is to young people at large,
#
as I said, that there is a lot of hope
#
we all have in this generation,
#
for the simple reason that remain unafraid,
#
keep experimenting, keep doing, you know,
#
in this digital ether, in this digital world,
#
that virtual like, that virtual heart, that virtual share
#
is a small dopamine hit maybe for you and for others
#
around you, but if it doesn't get translated into action,
#
you know, it's a tail full of sound
#
and fury signifying nothing almost by the end of it.
#
If you really want to go, there is no better,
#
there is no generation which will be as empowered as you,
#
no generation that will have as many tools as you,
#
no generation where the ability to break down
#
all those old guardrails, you know,
#
all those guardrails you can break so easily.
#
We had to knock on doors of all India radio,
#
stand outside film studios, read 20 scripts,
#
do auditions, do all of those things.
#
And I did a very small share of it,
#
but then thankfully the success was incremental.
#
But do that, also in the initial years,
#
work for experience, not for money.
#
I know this sounds very easy from where I'm sitting today,
#
but I can tell you about 50% of the jobs I did
#
in my first seven or eight years of working,
#
and maybe even more than that,
#
were done for experience, not for money.
#
They gave me all the skills I have to make the money.
#
They gave me all the bad experiences in small doses,
#
not being paid, not signing contracts,
#
being cheated, being stood up at an event,
#
having to suddenly, you know,
#
see be replaced by another person, all of those things.
#
Everything, those small hurts,
#
because till the age of 25, maybe your brain
#
is still learning how to process
#
and how to react and respond to things.
#
Delve into as many experiences as you can.
#
Don't fall for this trap of money today, money today.
#
Don't look at only the success charts.
#
I genuinely feel that there needs to be
#
a failure slash stumbling chart as well.
#
And every stumble is a learning.
#
Go for those, because there is so much to do that.
#
Along the way, don't forget the people who build you, ever.
#
Don't forget your family, ever.
#
Because in the end, they will be around you.
#
I'm going to end with a line that I just heard
#
in the Thasur from Zakir because I absolutely adore it.
#
He turned and said, professional loss is temporary,
#
personal loss is permanent.
#
Just make sure that you give enough time to those.
#
And there's another line from his show,
#
I think that guy is a soothsayer for this generation,
#
He says, don't spoil anyone's magic.
#
There's no need, be gentle.
#
Everybody has had a bad day, everybody's do that.
#
If you can, if you can find that empathy within you,
#
that's all that everybody needs.
#
Yeah, one thing I've learned is don't give advice
#
Actually, it may not take it.
#
But having said that, I would have taken Roshan's advice
#
to myself if I was young, is that I don't want
#
to change anything, especially my mental state
#
and the fact that I live without any goal
#
But still I'm curious enough to,
#
I think curiosity is the fundamental thing.
#
If you're curious, lot of your anxieties,
#
your stress kind of gets canceled
#
because you are anyway in the moment,
#
you're trying to seek out of life and others.
#
And I would have taken one piece of advice
#
from Roshan to my younger self,
#
that yes, you live the life that you have chosen to
#
in the way you are doing right now,
#
but just get a little more execution friendly
#
and put out more creative in the universe
#
so that, and take it to the logical conclusion
#
and just don't get away from it.
#
Yeah, I would just say that I disagree with you
#
in the one sense in the context of my own life
#
that I would do things differently,
#
I would do a lot differently
#
and I think my advice comes from there.
#
Advice number one is respect the passing of time.
#
Time passes quicker than you know it.
#
There's a saying, the days are long, the years are short.
#
The years go by before you even realize
#
how fast they are moving.
#
So respect that time, don't waste any of it.
#
I would also say better on yourself.
#
Kids today are so fortunate,
#
not just kids, we today are so fortunate
#
that we live in a world where you can learn anything.
#
You can go online and you can pick up any skill
#
So respect time, bet on yourself.
#
Compound yourself, as Sam Altman says.
#
Always try to figure out ways
#
in which you are getting better at something
#
and ask yourself every day, every week,
#
what have I learned this week?
#
Also, look within yourself for happiness, not outside.
#
I think too many people spend too much time
#
worrying about what other people think of them,
#
where really nobody's thinking of anybody else.
#
We've all got our heads up our own asses, right?
#
So just look within for happiness.
#
Validation doesn't really matter.
#
And the words from James Clear in Atomic Habits
#
sort of ring really true to me when he says,
#
everything you do today will impact your future self.
#
And I think that's supremely important.
#
I'm very angry at the young me
#
because he didn't compound himself
#
and he wasted too much time.
#
And I think that impacted his future self.
#
And what I think we all have to remember is
#
that everything you do today
#
builds the person you are tomorrow.
#
Think of that person, be compassionate towards him.
#
And this doesn't mean that you work, work, work
#
Being in the moment is great.
#
Listening to a piece of music and giving into it
#
and not looking at what your calendar says is also great.
#
But the point is that overall,
#
you've just got to sort of think about that.
#
You know, there are many ways,
#
like one good metric is that if you think of your ideal self,
#
what is the perfect version of you doing that you don't do?
#
And what is the perfect version of you not doing
#
And if you just, you know, do a journal entry,
#
and in fact, writing a journal every day
#
is also great advice that I would give.
#
And I would say that, you know,
#
make that your first journal entry
#
and write about, you know, that ideal self.
#
You know, what are they doing that you are not
#
and what are they not doing that you are doing?
#
And I think they would also listen to this podcast,
#
Basically, what you're saying is find your own Baljeet.
#
Find your own inner Baljeet and make him your bhena.
#
I sometimes, when Sheru Shah, he says to me,
#
remember, he says that,
#
you know, this Urdu-English guy,
#
Kashmakash, whatever, whatever, he exploits a lot.
#
So, I get a lot of such things from time to time,
#
and I keep writing, I keep searching.
#
So, there is a very beautiful,
#
The ones who cannot make their blood water,
#
cannot bring a new color to life.
#
The ones who lose in the darkness of the roads,
#
cannot find the light of their destination.
#
The blood of thousands of moon and stars,
#
then one morning, they smile in the air.
#
I'm just forgetting two lines in between,
#
because it's that whole thing of turning and saying that
#
it takes a lot of effort,
#
and you know how I keep talking about this thing of saying,
#
do it, do it, do it, do it.
#
You know, it's very important to do it,
#
and doing to that extent,
#
that that pinnacle is, it gets, you know,
#
it gets smaller after going there,
#
but if you want to reach there,
#
then you have to put in that much effort.
#
whatever he said as a joke, or however he said it,
#
ultimately, I think it's that,
#
that there is so much to do in life,
#
do it, you know, go and do it.
#
He said, no, do it each day, compound it,
#
But I think bias for action is something that,
#
I just want to reiterate that or whatever.
#
I wish I was ahead of you.
#
He said, why is he promoting anemia?
#
I mean, you know, one of those is,
#
However difficult it is, try to find your why.
#
Do you need to find a why, Vikram?
#
You see, why means whether it is goal setting or what,
#
but if you get a little meaning,
#
that if you want to do this,
#
then I have seen that psychological issues are also solved a lot,
#
which can be handled in the younger generation.
#
For that matter, even just, I mean, to this thing,
#
even when my mother was unwell,
#
when I, she has lived her life,
#
she has taught me the thing,
#
but the moment I triggered that, you know,
#
you should do this and that will distinct,
#
suddenly her healing process got better.
#
So I know, I don't mean to say the why is a very
#
philosophical construct about your existence in the universe,
#
but it is that small, ki ye mirko karna chahiye,
#
that kind of solves a lot of problems before.
#
That's what I'm still trying to find.
#
Let's hope that in 2023, we all find our why,
#
as all three of us and everyone listening in.
#
So thank you guys for your company today.
#
If you enjoyed listening to this episode,
#
check out the show notes and their rabbit holes at will.
#
You can follow Roshan on Twitter at Roshan Abbas.
#
You can follow Vikram on Twitter at Vikram Sathay.
#
That's V-I-K-R-A-M-S-A-T-H-A-Y-E.
#
You can follow me on Twitter at Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A.
#
You can browse past episodes of The Scene
#
and the Unseen at sceneunseen.in.
#
Thank you for listening.
#
Did you enjoy this episode of The Scene and the Unseen?
#
If so, would you like to support the production of the show?
#
You can go over to sceneunseen.in slash support
#
and contribute any amount you like
#
to keep this podcast alive and kicking.
