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Human beings are wired in different contradictory ways.
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Of course we are wired to be self-interested.
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We are also wired to be tribal and we are also wired to be altruistic and all of these
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run up against each other.
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Everything we want or do or feel inclined towards is a combination of our hardwiring
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or our genes and our circumstances.
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Nature and nurture both shape us into who we are.
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For this reason, never look for simple causes for why people do the things they do.
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Yes, human beings respond to incentives, but there are all kinds of incentives shaping
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us and we cannot disentangle them.
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I thought of this in the context of my guest today, who is a good man, a fine thinker,
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who cares about people and wants to make the world a better place.
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He is also a part of the Indian state, which is often predatory instead of protective or
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The state has too much power over us and power corrupts.
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Even yet, I have met many people working within the system who recognize this and try to do
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the best they can despite these constraints.
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Are they outliers or can the beast called government be tamed and reformed?
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Does humanity's best hope lie in, well, humanity?
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics and behavioral
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Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen.
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My guest today is Ashutosh Saleel, an IS officer who has co-written with Barkha Mathur a wonderful
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book called Being the Change in the Footsteps of the Mahatma.
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The book focuses on a bunch of social workers in Vidarbha who are in different ways fighting
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to change society from within.
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The state is sometimes their adversary, but it can also be their ally.
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Ashutosh was so impressed by their selflessness and commitment over years of interaction that
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he wrote this wonderful book of portraits.
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Do read it, these stories are so inspiring.
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But our conversation was about much more than this.
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Ashutosh grew up in small towns and moved to a big city, studied law, then became an
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IS officer to try and help people at scale.
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I found his life story to be fascinating and his experiences in government are so insightful.
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Rather than talk about big grandiose ideas, Ashutosh has tried to solve small concrete
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problems by interacting respectfully with real human beings.
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I often say that the Indian state treats us as subjects, not citizens.
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And Ashutosh's experiences are a refreshing contrast to this.
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He's a thinker and a doer.
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And luckily for me, he can be a talker when he wants to.
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I learnt a lot from this conversation and I think you'll enjoy it as well.
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But before we get there, let's take a quick commercial break.
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An online community has now sprung up of all my past students.
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We have workshops, a newsletter to showcase a work of students and vibrant community interaction.
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In the course itself, through four webinars spread over four weekends, I share all I know
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about the craft and practice of clear writing.
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There are many exercises, much interaction, a lovely and lively community at the end of
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The course costs rupees 10,000 plus GST or about $150 and is a monthly thing.
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That's IndiaUncut.com slash clear writing.
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Being a good writer doesn't require God-given talent, just the willingness to work hard
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and a clear idea of what you need to do to refine your skills.
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Architosh, welcome to The Scene in the Unseen.
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Thank you for having me over.
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You know, before we get to your book, your rich experiences, your time is in our ears,
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all of those things, let's kind of go back and start from your childhood, which you've
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written, you know, some evocative essays about as well in Outlook, all of which I'll link
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But tell me a bit about your childhood, wherever you were born, what were your early years
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So I was born in Sehersa.
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It's a small town, some 250 kilometers away from Patna, northeast Bihar.
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And my parents, they came from this small village called Pipra in a district called
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And my dad, he came looking for work.
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He didn't see much often farming that he was doing for two kids he had.
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So they moved to Sehersa.
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That's where I was born.
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My brother was already four or four and a half years old when they made the move.
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So that's where I grew up in a very, very new place, new setting.
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I had no relatives there except for my parents.
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But it was a happy childhood, I would say, a small family, but I made new friends.
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There were new people who I got to know.
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And I went to school there in a Hindi medium school.
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And Mr. Shekhar Gupta keeps talking about HMT, so I am one of those Hindi medium types.
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So I went to a Hindi medium school until I was in my class fifth, the school called Gyan
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Sarovar Public School, which at that time it was called Gyan Sarovar Madhya Vidyalaya,
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which was like 100 meters away from home.
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So every day I would walk home to the school, spend most of my time there.
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And that school also had lots of people who came from the neighboring villages.
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And they stayed in the hostel there.
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So I guess those kids became my extended family and I found lots of friends there.
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Their parents would come, I would meet them.
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So lots of growing up was there at home and at the school.
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And then after that, I left for a signing school in Purulia, which was a big shift.
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This was from in the year 1994 for my class sixth.
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And signing school was a different world, it was an English medium school.
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My brother before me had left for Vikas Vidyalaya in Ranchi, which was a school done by Birla's
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So signing school was a big shift from a Hindi medium school to a public school.
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And it was also done by the Ministry of Defense in partnership with the state government,
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like all signing schools are run.
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So there I had lots of adjustment issues.
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First was that of a language.
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I was studying in Bengal, so the overall language of Bengali of the region.
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Then the medium instruction was English.
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And I had never studied in English before, except for English as one of the subjects.
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In fact, it's damn funny, I remember my brother, he's five years older to me.
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So he went to an English medium school, boarding school before I did in Ranchi.
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And when he would come back home during vacation, I was a kid.
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And he would tell me, he'd say like, Ashu, look at my books, they're all in English.
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And they teach me in English.
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And I would like make fun of him.
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I was like, he's taking me for a ride.
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I thought only English could be taught in English, right?
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Everything else is whatever in Hindi.
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So that is where I was coming from, right?
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So I was like, why are you lying, right?
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I was not exposed to any of this.
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And then when I go to signing school, then I suddenly realized everything my brother
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Because you had a completely different medium of instruction.
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I found it very difficult to cope in the beginning.
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But I used to work very, very hard.
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No, also because I always had the realization that my parents are really struggling to give
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both me and my brother good education.
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So that was somewhere in my, they never had to tell us or me, no, whatever they were doing.
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But it always stayed at the back of my head and I'd work really, really hard so much
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so that I'll top my school in my class six, seven, eight.
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So that is, no, that's where I spent my five years.
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I made good friends, except for the initial adjustment issue I had.
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And it was a slightly different school in terms of, no, there was a certain regiment
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And no, you would have all kinds of punishment, which happens in an army school.
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All of that was part of it.
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And in class 10th, post my board exam, I decided I was not very keen to study.
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And then, you know, there's lots of pressure.
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At least there was then for people to study science and maths and do all of that.
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So that pressure was naturally building up.
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Nothing from my parents.
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Unfortunately, although my parents lived all their life in small places, they're extremely
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liberal and they believe in kids making their own choices and not imposing their choices.
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So there was nothing from my family.
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But I could see lots of indirect pressure from your teachers, from your friends to study
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science because you did so well in your class 10th board.
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But my heart was not into it.
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I was not very keen to study science.
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And you're young and you're very confused.
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You don't know what to do.
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Everyone else expects you to do something, your heart says something.
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But I decided that I'll anyway move out of signing school because you could only study
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There were no other streams to study since they prepare you for the NDA and NDA only
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has at least till then it only had science as an option to write the exam.
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So then I decided to come to DPS RK Puram, which was again a huge jump from somewhere
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in Purulia in a small residential signing school.
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And I come to Delhi for my 11th, 12th, this was 1999 when I came.
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My brother was in Delhi.
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He was doing his Hindu college or IMC mass communication that time.
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And then again, I had this problem of adjustment.
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Coming from a small place to a big city, language was again a huge issue because mostly people
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spoke in English in RK Puram.
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By the time I spent five years in signing school, I was okay with, I could write well.
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I picked up the language, but I was still not very fluent in the language because except
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for teachers, students who never spoke in English will always speak in Hindi or Bengali,
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whoever, independent who you spoke with.
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So all that adjustment was difficult.
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I was like, no, terribly feeling missing my school, wanted to go back.
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I didn't know why I was here in a big school, but I guess what it did was it gave me lots
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of exposure, which probably I would not have got in a place like signing school.
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The fact that I went to law school, National Law School, Bangalore, was entirely because
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I got to hear about a place like National Law School.
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So that's how the journey has been at least, the initial journey from a small place in
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Seharsat to the National Law School in Bangalore, the academic part of it at least.
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So there's lots I want to double click on.
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And first of all, I love the way you spoke about how you thought ki English mein toh
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sirf English sikhate hain, right, which is, you know, such a fundamental shift, like from
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where I am sitting, I think of the world in English and I've had that kind of privileged
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upbringing where I'll think of everything in English naturally, but somewhere else you
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can easily see right flipping where, you know, English is just a foreign subject and what
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You think about the world in a different language, but now when you were kind of growing up in
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the nineties, in your younger days, the internet hadn't really fully spread or taken over and
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And you are in a small town to begin with, which is Seharsat.
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And then you go to Purulia from there, which is also, you know, relatively like that.
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So how was your conception of the world kind of evolving there?
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Like in terms of what kind of books and movies and music were you consuming?
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How did you see yourself in this world?
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Did you see yourself doing as time went by and how was this expanding?
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And also, was there a sense during this time around the language that it was in some ways,
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like, did you have a complex about the language?
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Like one of the guests who's been on my show, Vinay Singhal of Stage, was born in the small
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village in Haryana and he speaks about, he had two great phases in his life where he
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The first phase was where he went to another town or city and age standard.
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He found he was suddenly from being the smartest kid, he was right at the back of the class
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because English, but he worked hard much as you said you did.
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And the second phase, oddly enough, was learning Hindi because in that village in Haryana,
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they spoke a particular dialect, you know, and he said that people of my dialect, when
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I would go to a city, you know, I would feel that I was inferior.
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I would feel the pressure to fit in, to give up, you know, my dialect and speak in Hindi.
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And the company he started Stage, by the way, is like an OTT for dialects, Haryanvi, Rajasthani
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And they're doing very well, which is pretty phenomenal.
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But you know, how did languages play into all of this?
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Like at another point, you speak about how, you know, your mother was from Bhagalpur and
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one of her connections to a friend of yours, Zainesh, on whom you've written a very moving
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essay is that they spoke Angika at home, which is a dialect, which is again, you know, most
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people haven't heard of it.
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So what difference do all these languages make?
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Because on the one hand, you might feel, especially when you go to DPSR, which is too posh even
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for me, that you're not, you know, you could be worried about fitting in and do I belong,
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you know, these people are so posh and all of that.
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But at the same time, you know, knowing these other languages also gives you an inherent
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advantage in terms of understanding this country and its diversity, which those kids absolutely
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So tell me about the role these different languages played and how you kind of navigated
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So Hindi is not my mother tongue.
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My mother tongue is a version of Maitri that I speak at home, but which is again interesting,
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I don't know, it happens only in my house or it happens in other houses in Sahel, Sahel
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So with my mother and all female members in the family, we speak mostly in Maitri, which
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is the language I'm very comfortable and I feel at home speaking to my mother.
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I can't imagine talking to her in Hindi, which I at some point would do when I would have
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the issue of complex and I think probably I should speak to her in Hindi when my friends
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But that was when I was growing up, you know, I have no such complex now.
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But so to begin with, I spoke Maitri at home, even now I prefer speaking, whoever, the person
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sitting next to me can speak in Maitri, I prefer speaking in Maitri.
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But surprisingly, now the male members in the house, so my grandfather or my father,
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we spoke in Hindi at home, which was strange.
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So I don't know why that happened, but that's how it was at home.
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And then till signing school, I won't say there was any complex, they only struggled
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to try and understand what the subject was, because most of us were from similar backgrounds,
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people from villages, local area, small town.
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So then there was no complex because you had a similar set of people who were coming there,
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all of us were struggling with the same issue.
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It was when one comes to Delhi or even Bangalore, they are a very different set of people, nice
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people, but their life was very different from the life I had lived, even the way they
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It was so different from how I would speak.
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And every time I would speak, I'd be slow because you would first translate from Hindi
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to English and then speak.
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So there was natural hesitation, you would always be constantly judging yourself, should
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I speak, not speak, am I being judged, not being judged, your pronunciation will not
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be right, you would miss sentences you heard there.
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So all of that, I think obviously affected me.
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I was very conscious every time I would speak, I wished I could have expressed more if I
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was more fluent in the language.
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So all of that issue was there.
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And then I go to Bangalore, Bangalore also because it was a place where people came from
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So you had no choice but to communicate in English.
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And the similar issues I faced, it was only in my third year, fourth year, much later,
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when I could think in English and I didn't have to do that translation thing.
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But it's now, if I look back, and then what you said, the advantage of speaking in multiple
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languages, I think language will also help you understand the ecosystem around that society,
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For example, I speak Marathi also because I am Maharashtra, carded civil servant, I
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can read and write Bengali, I could speak Bengali because I studied in the same school.
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So in retrospect, I don't think I missed out on anything by not studying in an English
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But then at that point in time, there was a problem of fitting in because you are very
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different from almost everyone else around you.
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And when you're a child, you have all these questions, right?
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Because you're not able to see the larger world, you have not seen the world, you have
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not exposed yourself to so many things.
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So those questions were there then.
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But at this point in time, I don't think there is any complex.
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I think it's absolutely fine, whichever language.
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As long as you're able to communicate and that is what the key is.
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So that's how I see the entire and I personally feel like it always helps if you know more
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One of my regrets is that I could not pick Kannada when I was in Bangalore.
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Also because the medium was slightly away from the city, everyone spoke English, people
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came from cities mostly.
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But no, I think it's a regret that I've not lived with, that I should have picked up a
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new language because it lets you get into the entire state, what the state thinks, how
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And language works really well.
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Every time I've spoken to someone in Marathi or in Maithili, the reaction is so different
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than I've spoken in Hindi to the same person.
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My experience in Maharashtra has been, I speak Marathi, but obviously my Marathi is not very
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But I always make it a point to speak in Marathi.
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If I know that you are a Maharashtrian, Marathi comes very naturally to me.
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It might not be the correct Marathi.
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And I can see people appreciating that, right?
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And they like the fact that you're making an effort to communicate to them in a language
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which they know, they understand.
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So a couple of things I want to double click on here again.
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One is I'm fascinated by what you said about how you would speak to your mother and the
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women folk in Maithili and they would speak among themselves in Maithili while with the
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I did an episode with Peggy Mohan who sort of traced India's history through the evolution
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And one of the interesting points she makes is that when migrations happen, like the Aryan
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migration for example, it is really bands of men.
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And what happens and what she says happened here is that you have bands of men coming
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in and taking wives who are local women, consensually or by force or whatever, but local women become
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their wives and the local women have a particular language which they maintain and the men have
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a particular language which they maintain.
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So it's like really two languages and when a boy is growing up, initially he will be
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with the women and he will speak that language, but then he is with the men and he's speaking
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that language until, you know, that world which he was in earlier, that language becomes
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a really small part of that.
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Since I did that episode with Peggy, I've spoken to two or three other people who've
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reported similar things happening in modern times where these, where the women are speaking
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one language and the men are, it's like you have two separate species really in a sense.
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And obviously one sort of functional explanation of that and I'm thinking aloud could simply
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be that in a society like ours, you know, you have the women staying at home most of
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the time, but the men have to go out and interact with the world, so the incentive is greater
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for them to learn the outside language while the women will be more comfortable speaking
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And I'm just thinking aloud, that is one sort of pop sociological explanation.
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But what if you sort of observed in this regard and, you know, are there other aspects, other
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cultural aspects besides language which have such a clear sort of demarcation?
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And why do you think this would be the case?
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I mean, I just came up with one explanation on this.
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I was, you know, just thinking, right, when you asked me this question and I would like
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to believe whatever explanation you were giving, right, because most of the women folks, they
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would be home and men would go interact with, you know, world where the common language
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For example, when for my father, now he used to be a contractor with say PWD irrigation,
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many of his officers would be say from different parts of Bihar, right?
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So the Hindi became the common link language because within Bihar you have multiple dialects
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and multiple languages people speak, Bhojpuri, Maghi, Maitli, Angika.
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So my mother didn't have to, right, go to that space, to that workspace.
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So her work didn't get affected or matter in a sense that if she didn't speak, it didn't
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affect her in any sense because people she had to interact with, they all spoke what
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But my father had to, right, also my grandfather, he was also in politics, he would travel a
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So maybe I think it was function of what they did and that's why they probably spoke more
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often in a language that everyone else around them also could understand and speak.
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Because at times I've noticed, right, my dad also, he would say speak to someone who speaks
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Bhojpuri and Maitli and my mom would get annoyed and she would like, why are you speaking to
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He doesn't, sorry, why are you speaking to him in Maitli, he doesn't understand Maitli.
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So please stick to the language that he may understand.
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So that I think, you know, would happen in a state where you have more than one language
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which has widely spoken, so I'm not sure if this would happen, say, in Karnataka or if
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this would happen in Maharashtra, right, because then Marathi is your common language.
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This could also be a reason, right, because Bihar, you would have multiple reasons having
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their own dialect and their own way of speaking.
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So that was probably, I mean, that's what I think could be the reason why they spoke.
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One of your essays in Outlook was about not having a sense of home, which is a theme that
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I think about a lot and I kind of identify with that as well.
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And it's a question that I've asked various guests on the show, right, what is your sense
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I've got really interesting answers to this.
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You know, Max Rodenbeck, who was on the show, grew up in Cairo and he said, my home for
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me is Cairo, but it's not Cairo as it is today.
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It's Cairo as it used to be.
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And then there might be someone for whom, you know, home might be a particular set of
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things or habits or whatever.
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And when you spoke about how when you meet your mother, you'll just talk to her in Maithili,
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You know, would something like that be a fragment of, you know, what home would mean to you?
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That sense of familiarity or kind of comfort, like you've already kind of written that eloquent
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essay about you don't have a sense of home.
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But if we are to talk about like, what is in your comfort zone?
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What are the things that compose you at, you know, not at an intellectual level in terms
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of things you've studied or ideas or whatever, but just at an emotional level, things that
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I would say language songs, right.
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So today, I mean, Bihar and rest of India is celebrating chat, right.
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And every time I would hear Sadhaseena singing, be it in the US and or wherever, Bangalore,
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right, I'll get goosebumps and then I'd immediately think of home.
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Now, that home is where I don't know, right.
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It could be, it could be where my parents are, you know.
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But in terms of emotions, in terms of feelings, you know, every time I hear my mom speak,
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we have a conversation in Maithili, you know, that reminds me of home.
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So I think it's mostly through these intangible things that you don't feel, don't see, but
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you just hear and they're there in the back of your mind.
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You grew up, for example, listening to chat songs, right.
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And it doesn't matter which part of the world you are in.
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Every time you listen, whether you listen during chat or outside of chat, you'd still
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be reminded of a place called home.
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But how to pinpoint that place and how to define that place, it's difficult.
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It's very difficult because, no, there are no physical boundaries to that place.
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There are no fixed latitude and longitude for me.
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So if I have to define something loosely, what is home, I would say, no, it's wherever
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my parents are around, my brother is around.
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And that could be, you know, because they are the, with them, there are lots of memories.
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The memories, you know, so every time I'm with them, those memories keep coming back.
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You talk to them about, you know, growing up inside or your relatives coming and seeing
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And that reminds you of home.
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I mean, I guess, I guess the feeling of being at home would be conjured up by certain ways
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And maybe for some people, a physical place could make them feel that way.
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And for others, it could be a language or a little bit of music or people having people
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Tell me a little bit about, I want to ask you about your parents.
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But before that, I want to ask you also about the social milieu of, you know, the time,
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the places where you grew up, because one of the things you said earlier was that although
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they were from a small place, your parents were liberal.
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And that gives me two things to double click on.
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One is, of course, parents being liberal a bit, but the other is the although, you know,
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in the sense that one constant theme that keeps coming up in my show is about how liberal
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And people who grew up in the kind of privileged elite bubble that I have, who grew up believing
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ki haan tolerant hai, secular hai, liberal hai, sab kuch hai, right.
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And I think that bubble has kind of burst in the last few years, especially in the course
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of doing the show, talking to people like Akshay Mukul about his great book on the Geeta
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Press, where you realize that in certain ways, India is liberal in terms of how our languages
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and clothes and cuisines can be so assimilative.
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And in many other ways, it's deeply illiberal in terms of caste and women and all of these
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What has Indian society, you know, where would you come down on this?
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I mean, obviously, we contain multitudes and whatever you say, the opposite is also true
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as that cliche goes about India.
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But looking at Indian society, how would you place it?
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Like, you know, your statement about your parents being liberal, even though they were
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from a small town implies that small towns do tend to be illiberal and so on.
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And you know, one thesis that I toy around with sometimes is that we've always been a
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largely illiberal society across many margins.
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And today our politics has caught up with society.
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And obviously, I'm not going to ask you to comment on politics.
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But just in terms of our society, you know, what is your kind of sense, especially growing
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up in small town India and eventually landing up in the cities?
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So where I grew up and my relatives, family, friends, grew up in a very conservative set
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up, right, which was defined by notions of caste, religion, your status.
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All of that was there, you know, very obvious.
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But fortunately for us, both my grandparents, maternal side, paternal side, so my maternal
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side, you know, my Nanaji, he was a product of JP movement, so he didn't believe in notions
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of caste and all of that.
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And at every given point in time, he would try and dismantle that, both notions of caste,
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But did he manage to break all those shackles?
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He did whatever he could.
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So I guess my mother side, she picked up some of what she saw at home, her own father doing
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and her own father's interaction with, say, fellow village people, because he belonged
#
to a certain caste, the people from other castes he interacted with.
#
So what his interaction was, what his reaction was to things, which to her was like a very
#
fair egalitarian man and then largely influenced by ideals of Jabrakas Narayan and he followed
#
On the paternal side, my paternal grandfather, he was the only child of a, I mean, you can
#
He had some land, his father, so he was given good education, he was the only child.
#
So he had the advantage of studying, I think he did his BA and MA and had seen the world
#
because he was in politics, he had traveled around.
#
So they didn't themselves had very strong held belief in things.
#
So because they had seen the world, had exposure, they were probably more open to experimentation
#
And some of that flowed to my parents.
#
So in that sense, I'll say, I'm lucky to have such a grandfather.
#
But was that the case with everyone else around?
#
No, obviously, no, right.
#
And my parents also, I'll say by and large, because of, for example, my mother, she studied
#
only class 10, she couldn't study beyond because there was no school in her village.
#
But because she had exposure, even though she didn't have the advantage of further
#
education, she looked at the world very differently.
#
And my father, again, because he studied, he did his MA and all of that, he taught for
#
So personally, I would say they were very, very different set of parents from everyone
#
else around, including my own relatives, my own uncle and my own aunt.
#
We always felt, me and my brother, that my parents looked at the world very differently.
#
They put lots of premium on education.
#
For them, that is the only thing that matters.
#
And then everything else, right, that you have some land and you belong to this caste,
#
that caste, all of that took a backseat for them.
#
But no, I'd be completely wrong to say that those things were not there.
#
Of course, they were there.
#
I'm sure they also interacted with them in some sort of way.
#
But it wasn't a dominant thing, at least in our own lives and our own growing up.
#
It was there in the society who grew up, right?
#
Caste was an important factor.
#
It continues to be an important factor.
#
Maybe it has, because of changes that have happened over a period of time, things have
#
changed, but they continue to play an important role in who you are, what you do, how you
#
interact with the society.
#
So for example, the role of women, right?
#
How do you treat women at your home?
#
I have always seen my mother being treated with enormous respect and having an equal,
#
I'll say more than equal, which is quite surprising because I didn't see that happening
#
in my own immediate surroundings, right?
#
Women were only supposed to not to be a decision maker.
#
You only cooked for your husband and child, send them to schools, and you did what you
#
So my mother has her own political views, which are very different from my father, right?
#
And she didn't agree with my father, you know, their poles apart.
#
And my dad respects her for that.
#
And so that kind of, you know, does that happen in every household, including my own extended
#
So I'll say mine was, you know, slightly a different family also because of my grandparents
#
and the exposure and also my own parents who gave us the freedom, who put premium on education,
#
who never told us they didn't see, you know, their dreams through us.
#
They were like, they were your own dreams.
#
We don't want to tell you what to do with your life.
#
Go ahead and do whatever you want to do.
#
So I meant in that sense, you know, largely the place was conservative, but they were
#
like people who stood out for their belief and the thing they practiced.
#
I'm also, you wrote this essay about your friend Dinesh, which is quite moving.
#
And there you spoke about your childhood in the Sahirsa.
#
And at one point you write, and I'm quoting from your essay quote, every evening we would
#
ride our bicycles to that part of town.
#
All senior district officials lived and worked where the big trees flanked the wide and clean
#
The bungalows were big, enclosed by even bigger walls from all sides.
#
We could only read the name plates from a distance.
#
We memorize those names and I still remember many such names from those big houses.
#
Every time we would walk past a district collector's house, we would try to peep in, hoping we
#
might catch a glimpse of what was inside of the people living there, stop quote.
#
And I'm just thinking aloud about what drives people, right?
#
Like very often we think that, you know, that there is an authentic self, we are who we
#
We were supposed to be, but I find that more and more we are much more shaped by circumstances
#
and contexts than we realize.
#
And I can totally imagine a small town kid growing up in a small town like that, seeing
#
the role of power, seeing the allure of status, being driven by the desire for status elsewhere
#
at same kid in a bigger city, might not feel that importance of status so much and might
#
be drawn to say a passion for music because you've got exposure to concerts and all of
#
those things happening.
#
And so sometimes what drives us can also, can be so contingent.
#
So in your case, when you look back, you know, what drove you?
#
Because I'm sure there must be some element of status but there must also be various other
#
things like your parents you mentioned without being overt about it, inculcated this desire
#
to be educated, the importance of education.
#
So there is also the education factor coming in.
#
There's also a natural curiosity like, you know, in another of your essays you write
#
about how in the rainy season there would be so many frogs.
#
And you would wonder ki ye frogs aate kahan se hai, jaate kahan se hai, right?
#
Which is a question most kids actually would not ask.
#
So even that shows a curious bent of mind that somebody wants to figure out that where
#
are these frogs coming from?
#
And as an aside, I'm also curious, so I'd like you to answer that.
#
But the deeper question is, what do you think was driving you, number one?
#
And number two, when you looked around you, what do you think was driving the others?
#
How much does contingence actually play a part in that?
#
So what was driving me was, say when I was growing up inside, you look up to certain
#
So it was a small place, there's nothing, no industry, no concerts happening, nothing
#
So only big people in the town were collector and SPs, right?
#
Now they were big in the sense, you know, when you're growing up in 80s and 90s, you
#
know, liberalization had not come, touched, when they touched, they didn't touch my hometown.
#
It took us lots of years, you know, to get, you know, all these benefits of liberalization.
#
So the only people, you know, who were important and who could get things done, who everyone
#
looked up to was collector and SP.
#
So it was there, some coincidentally in my mind.
#
It also helped that they lived not very far from where we lived.
#
So you would go see, you know, there are only a few big houses like that.
#
And one was just curious and, you know, I would read newspaper ever since I was a child,
#
you would see their picture.
#
So, I mean, I would be lying if I said status and prestige wasn't one of the thing, but
#
that wasn't the thing for me at all.
#
No, that was something I was very clear.
#
What actually drove me was the fact that these guys could do things and they're getting recognition
#
My father would say, speak of an officer who had left district long back, it was someone
#
who had left the place 20 years back, you still remembering him or her and the work
#
they did was remarkable.
#
And that was something, you know, which stayed with me that, you know, here was a job which
#
gave you this opportunity to do things that for which people would remember you years
#
So it was there in my mind, honestly, subconsciously, and it was largely, you know, that in my mind
#
and then as they say, right, there's this joke, I don't know if you've heard that for
#
all Bihari kids, I'm from Bihar, they teach you, everyone else ends up learning alphabet
#
A, B, C, D, Bihari parents teach their kid, our alphabet starts from U, P, S, C. So subconsciously,
#
I guess it's there in your mind, right?
#
And it could also largely be because, you know, there are not other options available
#
You don't see it, you know, big factories, industries, at least it wasn't there when
#
I was growing up in my hometown, it's still not there.
#
So who do you look up to?
#
Where do frogs come from?
#
I don't know, they definitely come from the ground.
#
I asked my mother, she says it comes from ground, goes inside.
#
But yeah, I don't know, it's a question that I've not found an answer to.
#
Someone listening to this should do a Learn It Twitter thread on this explaining where
#
frogs suddenly come from and where they suddenly kind of disappear.
#
And you know, also socks, where do socks go?
#
I keep losing so many of them.
#
But in general, then when you look around, when you look at the aspirations of people,
#
do you feel that the aspirations of people have changed say over these 20 years, like,
#
what the percentage of people say in Saharsar, Bihar, whose alphabet starts with UPSC?
#
Would they be the same?
#
Or would there be other alphabets like MBA or JEE?
#
I think, obviously, definitely it would have changed.
#
Because country has changed, and then all of us have changed.
#
So there'd be a large number of people who would be trying different things.
#
People who get into management, there are people who are, and there are a large number
#
of students from Bihar who would be doing that.
#
I think that aspiration has changed for sure.
#
Not everyone wants to be in government services.
#
But there's still a large number of people who would still want to take a shot at civil
#
Also, because they still feel that the service brings lots of respectability, it brings lots
#
of status to the family.
#
So it's also seen as a means to know your upper mobility in the society and the place
#
But I'm sure there are a large number of people.
#
For example, my own cousin, they are like people who are teaching someone in Singapore.
#
All my siblings, I don't think many of them wanted to write civil services or be in civil
#
People are doing all kinds of things, especially with the social media becoming so powerful
#
and then people finding a way of expression through the social media.
#
You have all kinds of stars who are coming up, the people who are taking to singing stories,
#
And they're doing really well because someone who had only access to a certain kind of content
#
now has access to stuff that they never had.
#
For example, I have access to quality content in my Bhojpuri, which I didn't have when
#
I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, because you only have Hindi cassettes mostly playing
#
You would not have talented people.
#
Now you have someone, Maithili Thakur, who sings in Maithili and then the whole world
#
So that, I think, had changed definitely.
#
And thanks in a large measure to the technology that has ushered in the last few years.
#
One of the themes I discussed with Vinay Singhal when I did that episode with him was my impression
#
in the past used to be that at a very basic level, when capitalism comes in, and I am
#
a big fan of capitalism, huge net positive, but one of the sort of negative forces that
#
it was sort of unleashing was this force of homogenization.
#
Like I did an episode on Indian food with Vikram Doktor where Dok mentioned the Cavendish
#
Now the Cavendish banana was a banana that we exported to the world to begin with, and
#
then it became very popular outside because economies of scale and whatever.
#
And then it got exported back to India.
#
And now you are having a homogenization of the banana market where other indigenous kinds
#
of bananas are vanishing.
#
And it happens across various margins.
#
And my impression used to be that it's happening to languages also, that dialects will disappear
#
and languages will survive, that Maithili and Bhojpuri are endangered, but Hindi will
#
survive because as we urbanize and you go to a city, your incentive is to fit in.
#
You're more likely to learn the language spoken by more people, so the dialects are in danger.
#
What I realized in my episode with Vinay is that the next step of capitalism is where
#
technology empowers every individual to the extent that now individuals can make the choices
#
to keep their little subcultures alive, to keep these dialects alive.
#
And that seems to be what is happening with Vinay's enterprise with the stage where,
#
you know, the Haryanvi and Rajasthani content has now a huge market.
#
And what is your sense of this, therefore, that is that worry of homogenization really
#
a futile worry, that eventually technology will help a thousand flowers bloom and not
#
turn everything into the same bouquet as it were?
#
That's very interesting, you know, Amit, this issue of homogenization.
#
I will tell you in a different context how I keep discussing this with my mother.
#
And let's look at the cultural space, you know, in terms of say festivals and the food.
#
So when we were growing up in Bihar, we didn't eat paneer.
#
Paneer was a very north Delhi, Punjab, Haryana thing.
#
People in Bihar didn't consume paneer.
#
It was not our staple food.
#
But when you had lots of people from Bihar who started coming to Delhi to study, a large
#
number of people from Bihar came and they would go back home, they would eat paneer
#
here, go back home, demand paneer at home.
#
So then paneer entered our home.
#
Festival Karwa Chauth is something that was never celebrated in Bihar.
#
It's not a festival of Bihar or East, right?
#
Now suddenly you have aunts and sisters, everyone doing Karwa Chauth.
#
So obviously there is homogenization or marriage, right?
#
Mehendi and Sangeet was something alien to us, is alien to us in Bihari, but it's not
#
Even in South Indian family, I have friends who they say it's alien, but everyone is doing
#
it, they go to Sangeet.
#
Again, it was a very north thing.
#
So in that sense, right?
#
But I also see there is a small counter which happens.
#
So whenever you have homogenization happening, suddenly you will have some set of people
#
who would start digging up what they did, what was the culture like, what was the original
#
food like, what was the song that was sung in the marriages.
#
And that starts catching up with the democratization of technology.
#
So now today when you do Karwa Chauth, at least there will be voices and they will say
#
that, okay, great, you do it for your husband for whatever reason you do.
#
Because that's not something you did anyway, it's not your festival.
#
In that sense, it is specific.
#
So there is also a counter movement, I will say, to this homogenization, which happens
#
So I wouldn't fear as much in terms of local subculture getting totally subsumed, because
#
I think, as you said, technology will ensure, or at least technology would make sure that
#
So subculture gets a much bigger audience than it has, and then counterculture reaches
#
to a large number of people and eventually it will balance out.
#
So you'll have pushback from people and from those cultural spaces, saying that this is
#
what we did all our life, why not do this instead of trying copying or aping something
#
which is now never there.
#
So I mean, I'm not that skeptical that everything would be common throughout the country, we'll
#
all do at the same festival, we'll all dress up like the same, we'll all have Mehndi Sangeet.
#
I think there are people, and I'm glad there are young people.
#
For example, I am very interested in say, subculture.
#
So I keep looking for, for example, there was this time in my head, I kept thinking
#
like there has to be some form of music of Bihar, people must have been practicing.
#
And then I started looking for Darbhanga Gharana, there were artists who trained in Bihar, including
#
Pandit Chanu Lal Mishra, he trained in Mojapapur, Darbhanga.
#
So I'm sure there are many more people who are interested in finding this strand of culture,
#
which is probably, whatever, it got submerged in larger culture or got hidden, people didn't
#
pay attention because they had other things to bother about.
#
But that fear, I don't see, honestly.
#
Yeah, that's fascinating.
#
Let's go back to your personal journey and talk about when you go to Delhi.
#
And I would imagine that, you know, when you make a transition like that, that you are
#
really coming out of small town India, and you're going to a big city, and or even if
#
you're going from one city to another city, frankly, if you're going to a place where
#
you don't belong, I guess there would be two simultaneous pressures on you at this moment
#
And one is the pressure to kind of fit in, right?
#
You are with people who you would think are, you know, cool in different ways.
#
You want to be cool like them, you want to be approved by them, you know, you want all
#
You want all of that to happen.
#
And at the same time, there's another push within you to find yourself.
#
Because you know, if you're in your teens, you're still kind of unformed, you're still
#
figuring out what do I like, you're getting exposed to more and more things.
#
And these are, in some sense, this can even be a contradictory to contradictory and very
#
confusing impulses that on the one hand, you're trying to conform to the way what you think
#
And on the other hand, you're trying to figure out that what do I really want?
#
That's a problem I've lived with for a very, very long period in my life.
#
And I think many of us lived through that problem.
#
I'm no we've been torn between two worlds.
#
The one world of where we come from, where we grew, values, belief, all of that we bring.
#
And a different world where you're exposed to a different set of values.
#
So one is torn between these two belief system and value system.
#
And I'm the one who's always felt that way.
#
There will be a side of yours which will say, no, because that's what you've been all your
#
life, that's your core.
#
And no, and suddenly you come to a different setting, different exposures, you can't change
#
your core, but you have to fit in otherwise you'll not belong and then there's a struggle
#
But how much you fit in?
#
What part of core you let go?
#
So that balancing, it gets to you at times and it becomes very, very difficult because
#
Sometimes, I mean, you're not being true to yourself, so there is a sense of guilt there.
#
But if you don't conform, then you'll not fit in and you'll like, no, I'll be the odd
#
man out and I don't know what am I doing here if I'm not even fitting in here.
#
I should just have been where I came from.
#
No, I think I have dealt with all my school and college life.
#
But yeah, and I'm sure many of us who come from these settings and these backgrounds,
#
we have to go through this.
#
I think even if you don't come from those settings that constant struggle between wanting
#
to be validated by others and therefore to fit in with them and just doing your own thing
#
and even figuring out what your own thing is.
#
Like, can you give any concrete illustrations of this conflict, like, when did you, like,
#
do you look back at yourself at any point in time and say, why did I do this?
#
I mean, it's an example, I can give up only again, right, for example, of just fitting
#
No, I mean, I don't think there are things that I'll feel, no, I should have done, I
#
didn't do because of who I am and where I came from.
#
For example, say, listen to English songs or movies, right?
#
All my friends in law school, no, they would all listen to English songs, they would watch
#
I would have no connect, right?
#
Because I never listened to English songs, so I would not go to concert, no, we used
#
to have this rock band show where, no, all my friends, all of us would go bang head.
#
But I just couldn't relate to any of that, right?
#
And that is where you would find there's something missing because everyone else had the common
#
Your vocabulary was very different.
#
So we are friends, you know, I like them, they like me.
#
But our settings were very different, right?
#
But that didn't, so, but in my, I never had this urge that to fit in, say, I'll do something
#
that I am not supposed to do.
#
That much, I think, you know, self-belief faith I had.
#
If I was not comfortable, I'm not going to go do some stupid thing only because, no,
#
the world around me does that.
#
So I never had that issue.
#
But I had this issue of, right, not understanding what everyone else was doing, thinking, even
#
When you go to, when I went to college, I didn't even know what peeing meant, right?
#
Why would people use, you know, word like pee or whatever?
#
No, it was a very different vocabulary that kids in the metro city use, right?
#
I was not exposed to that vocabulary.
#
For a while, you take some time to understand what's happening.
#
And that, in a way, I don't know, maybe it also affects your friendship, relationship,
#
because you don't have those deep connections, those deep friendship, because you don't,
#
with many people, probably you don't have that shared, you know, growing up stories
#
to share or relate to or talk about.
#
So you are friends, but those friendships are probably not very, very deep.
#
And they're not, you know, they're not like Dineshwala friendship.
#
Tell me a little bit more about Dineshwala friendship in that case, like what I loved
#
about that essay you wrote and the essay for the listeners was about a friend of yours
#
who died when he was 19, you were a year older than him.
#
And you found out he had passed only when you went back home, you were at national law
#
And you kind of speak about that friendship a bit.
#
And just now you mentioned also, you know, forming deep friendships and so on and so
#
How have you formed friendships in your life?
#
Because I have had guests on the show like Avinandan Sekri, who've told me that they've
#
not made a single friend after 25, whereas for someone like me, it is almost the other
#
way around that I find that, you know, earlier one is constrained by a community of circumstance
#
that you have the people around you or the people who they are.
#
And if you find there's too little in common, it's difficult to make friends.
#
But what technology has enabled us to do is form communities of choice where you can meet
#
people like yourself and form those kinds of friendships.
#
So what has that been like in your life?
#
And have you felt the need to then make a conscious investment in friendships to keep
#
them going, to keep those sort of, to bring an intentionality to the relationship, even
#
if you're in different cities or things like that.
#
So how do you think of friendship?
#
So I have a few good friends, very close friends, and they're not necessarily friends from my
#
In fact, I just have one friend from my childhood who's still in Sehertsa.
#
School friends I've lost, touch with college, I have a few friends from there.
#
But I've made lots of friends in course of my, as I grew up in my professional journey,
#
people in service, people outside of service.
#
But I think how I connect with people is basically, if there's nothing transactional, that's the
#
So that is the code for me.
#
That is the first check.
#
If I'm meeting you and I don't come to table saying that I'm meeting Amit because I want
#
So that is the thing I do.
#
If X is meeting me for something and that you figured out, you have one, two, three
#
conversations, it's not that difficult to figure out.
#
So that is the code for me.
#
If my friendship is non-transactional, it's a friendship I cherish.
#
I don't necessarily have to talk, they're friends, right?
#
I meet after a year and I start from where we had left.
#
But I hope that they're there and I'm there for them.
#
But those friendships are extremely meaningful, they are very fulfilling for me because they're
#
the people who I turn up to whenever I need.
#
Because my family is very small, immediate parents, my elder brother, the many things
#
that you don't talk to your parents to.
#
And then you have this close group of friends who I am free to talk about anything, right?
#
Some of my friends, I have zero agitation also because I know I'm not being judged,
#
They come from a place of complete non-judgmental space.
#
That is a huge thing, right?
#
Because in today's time and space where every action gets judged, you're offered advice
#
There's someone who listens to you, who doesn't judge you and who's just there.
#
I have a bunch of people who I can count them as friends.
#
And then hopefully, they're all non-transitional friendship.
#
And probably that's the reason why it also survives because there's zero expectation.
#
I don't expect them to do anything for me.
#
They don't expect me to do anything for me, right?
#
But when we're there, we're there.
#
That's how I look at it.
#
And then you also see lots of...
#
I've always been interested in people, I think, especially in people who are very different
#
I'm just curious just to understand where they come from, what they do, who they are.
#
And that also gets me interested in people in general, some of which translates into
#
friendship, many of them do not, which is totally okay.
#
And then that's why I have friends from across the stream and in fact, from different walks
#
I have friends from services, but I have many more friends from outside of the services
#
because I also go and seek them and try to get some interesting people to talk to.
#
It's also about conversation, right?
#
When you meet as friends, what do you do?
#
And what do you talk about?
#
You talk about interesting stuff.
#
You don't want to keep talking about your workspace.
#
So in that sense, yeah, I'm drawn to those people.
#
And then once you have the friendship, one makes the effort of we all like adult, mature,
#
not kids would fight, but you make an attempt to keep those friendships alive and nurture
#
them in whatever way you can.
#
Yeah, I love your definition of a friendship as something that can be non-transactional
#
and still survive though.
#
I sometimes wonder if everything could be transactional in some hidden way or the other,
#
Like you may not want something overtly from someone, but like I look back to college and
#
there were people who were friends of mine because I hung out with them.
#
It is not that I hung out with them because we were friends.
#
It's like as you're spending a lot of time together, perhaps because I used to stay up
#
Another guy used to stay up late at night.
#
So we would go for chai together at one o'clock, but that in the in the hostel, but that doesn't
#
So, you know, at one level you are friends, but then later on you think about it and you
#
One of my friends, you know, had this beautiful sort of metric for it, which is he said that
#
if you can just sit with someone for a long time and none of you has a need to talk or
#
say anything, you know, that's friendship and that's also sort of a nice comfortable
#
You don't have any kind of pressure to do anything.
#
You're just there in a room and like you do your own stuff, your friends are doing his
#
But that's I think is a good metric too, because you're comfortable, there is no need to seek
#
any kind of validation.
#
You're not trying to impress someone, someone is trying to impress you.
#
And that happens to me with many of my friends, honestly, right now, I could just be sitting
#
and like, you know, do their own thing.
#
Maybe my friend has come visiting me sitting in a room and like after a few hours, let's
#
go for a walk or something.
#
But it's just that like, you know, the person is there and you're comfortable that your
#
It's also very emotional thing and very difficult to put it down in terms of the relationships
#
How do you define them and how do you know, measure them?
#
It's like it works or it doesn't work.
#
For example, I feel always that I never go wrong with people, a large number of very
#
rarely I've ever gone wrong in my judgment of people, right.
#
But I have many friends who keep craving, right, that they invariably go wrong with
#
I think each one of us have our own way of looking at things, people, how you see them.
#
I start with a place of trust.
#
I trust everyone unless otherwise.
#
I'm not unnecessarily suspicious and I'm not looking for motive when there's none.
#
And people are nice by and large.
#
I don't think there are bad people around and there are a few bad people everywhere,
#
which is true for everything in life, but that's how I see.
#
So you know, in a different context, in a context of romance, a bunch of us were sitting
#
around and discussing and somebody threw up the question that if you go for a date, what
#
What is the one thing that will be an immediate deal breaker for you?
#
And one of my friends said political inclination, that agar wo aisi hai, you know, toh main
#
And I find that even in the context of friendships in modern times, it becomes an issue in the
#
sense that pehle kya tha that there is this easy acceptance and understanding.
#
I think that people contain multitudes, right?
#
Toh agar mera dosh Ashutosh hai, toh uth theek hai, usme ek do kharabiya hogi, but otherwise
#
But today, I think when we have become so much more judgmental, like you said, so much
#
more shrill, if we are on social media, so much more performative, these things have
#
suddenly begun to matter much more.
#
And often it is not even for performative reasons, but it is often that we become so
#
polarized that aapko lakta hai ki, arey, if I'm supporting this party and you're supporting
#
that party, we can't even be friends, matlab there's nothing common.
#
Whereas actually, at one level, that's such a ridiculous way to think.
#
So, you know, when you look around you, and I know in your own case, it probably won't
#
be a factor, I'm guessing, but when you look around you, do you feel that it's something
#
people are conscious of, that it actually matters?
#
Because it has become so common now for people to complain, ki arey mere family WhatsApp
#
group mein sab aise hai, saare uncle aise hai, right?
#
And the thing is that 20 years ago, of course, family WhatsApp group tu thayi nahi 20 years
#
ago, but 20 years ago, you would regard your uncles in an indulgent, nice way, today they
#
Yeah, which I find very difficult to relate to, right?
#
Because I'm someone, you know, who is very high on diversity.
#
I'm like, okay, you're boring, if you are exactly like me, why do I meet you?
#
No, I mean, there's nothing we bring on table because we are identical.
#
So for someone like me, I have never understood this, no, but it's a reality of life.
#
You have people who will quit WhatsApp group because someone has put said something, you
#
have friends who have walked out of friends because of people's political belief, which
#
I don't understand this.
#
I mean, what has my political belief got to do with our friendship?
#
No, they operate at a very different level.
#
So when I think lots of things are becoming, your personal is becoming political, I don't
#
Some people say there's nothing personal, everything is political, which I don't subscribe
#
to, I don't believe in.
#
I like the fact that I would have people who come from spectrum of everything, ideology,
#
belief, languages, because that enriches me as a person, right?
#
If I only interact with someone or friends with people who believe in certain things,
#
you don't add to my own learning, my own values and my own growing up as a human being.
#
So yeah, that's something, I find it really, really boring, very difficult to deal with.
#
I mean, the only thing is, what is something I'm very, very careful and I feel strongly
#
about it, you have to be civil about it.
#
You don't have to be abusive just because you don't fit in what my idea of things are.
#
So that is something I'm very particular, that is where I draw the line.
#
If you become abusive, if you become violent and if you become very difficult, then there's
#
But as long as it's civil and we agree to disagree in a polite, nice civilized manner,
#
Yeah, I mean, the increasing tendency perhaps driven a lot by social media is also right.
#
If you disagree with me, you are evil.
#
Not only you're wrong, you're evil, right?
#
And the other thing that I find on Twitter, which like, if you take a step back and think
#
about it, it's like really funny, is how badly people behave in the sense that you just think
#
of what a court tweet is, right?
#
Say you and I are at a party.
#
I say something that you don't agree with or that you find ridiculous, right?
#
You will call a third friend and you will point to me while I'm standing there.
#
And you will say, Amit just said XYZ, you know, what a fool, what a moron.
#
Yeah, while I am there.
#
And this happens so often on Twitter that people are being so incredibly rude, so incredibly
#
And I'm like, you know, one way of thinking about it is that don't do something on Twitter
#
you wouldn't do in real life.
#
It's like, you know, computer screen ke piche ho, there's nobody in the room with you.
#
You think that it's just, you know, these are not real people.
#
You're just putting on a show for the world.
#
I want to go back on the journey from Delhi to where you end up studying law and choosing
#
to do law and you know, what makes you interested in that.
#
But as part of that, also tell me about the shaping of you.
#
Like, at what point did you begin to think about at what point did the person that you
#
are today begin to solidify in terms of taste, in terms of values, in terms of ideals?
#
Because I know when I was in college, everything was very nebulous.
#
I wasn't the person I am now, you know, so to some extent, you have some idea of taste
#
because music shows it by that time it's kind of forming.
#
But otherwise, in terms of the frames through which you look at the world, the things that
#
you want to do, the desires that you have, they're not solidified yet.
#
So what was that process for you?
#
I know for some people it happens early and by 16, they're like self-assured and everything
#
But for others, it takes longer.
#
Tell me about your process.
#
So for me, all of that started happening when I went to law school, NLS Bangalore, right?
#
Because I think that is the most transformative phase of my life.
#
Whoever I am, whatever I am, is largely shaped by my five years of stay and education and
#
exposure in NLS Bangalore.
#
Until then, I think I was this fluid, you know, I mean, I could take any whatever shape
#
But what law school did to me was it made me question everything, including my belief
#
system, including who I am, where I came from.
#
And that is, I think, the biggest gift I got being in a law school, that you didn't take
#
things on face value, right?
#
You'd question your parents and you'd question your own belief because I changed as a person,
#
That's one of the most aggressive values, you know, in terms of how I looked at things
#
and I looked at people.
#
And then that changed, I saw that change happening in myself, right?
#
I was also very judgmental in terms of, you know, judging people based on what they were
#
and what they ate and what they said.
#
And that, you know, all of that, you know, broke away largely because of the environment
#
I had, the people we had in the college.
#
And I think law is a subject also, right, lots of critical reasoning.
#
You ask lots of questions, you don't accept things as they are.
#
So for me, yeah, I would say my shaping up in terms of my own belief values, who I am,
#
largely happened in law school.
#
Can you talk about some concrete ways in which that happened, concrete ways in which you
#
changed, like beliefs you had, which you no longer had?
#
And you know, was breaking past those beliefs a function of just getting older or also specifically
#
a function that you're there in NLS or, you know, that is a kind of environment?
#
Things like, right, how do you look at issues of, say, gender, right?
#
I also, you know, largely you would have predefined notion of what women should do and what they
#
should wear, even in terms of clothes, right?
#
I'd be uncomfortable if people wore, say, you know, short clothes, women wore short
#
clothes, my friends in my first year.
#
And then I was like, who am I, why am I even bothered, right?
#
But I was uncomfortable, to be honest, when I just went there in the first year.
#
Or like, you know, people who used to call it, you know, PDA, public display of affection
#
I would be very uncomfortable, you know, because I had not seen any of that happening.
#
You know how it is, you know, your emotion, love, you are supposed to pack them and keep
#
them in your room and houses, not on the campus.
#
But then, you know, you realize, why should that be, you know, an issue that two adults,
#
if they are holding hands, they love each other, who am I to question their love and
#
So I'm saying these are the small examples I'm giving, but that's a huge change, which
#
I know went through because for me, all of this was very, very alien, I had never seen
#
I had never experienced issues of, say, sexuality, you know, of the people of alternate sexuality.
#
And then to be able to understand the concerns, we'd go do fieldwork, you know, and meet
#
people from different walks of life.
#
So all that exposure, you had certain notions, you know, say, of people from his community.
#
Now, one would always have some notion, and you've not known the community, you've not
#
worked with them, you don't know what the issues are.
#
But you've already judged them, and I also did.
#
But when you get exposed to when you go and do a fieldwork in sociology and spend some
#
time talking to them, you realize, you know, the kind of challenges people, the marginalized
#
section of this country have, society have, and then your notion starts getting dismantled
#
because what you imagine in your head is so different from what is there in reality.
#
So I mean, there are many such small or big whatever example you can say that for me changed
#
in terms of how I looked at gender, sexuality, you know, role of people, all of that.
#
And many of this is also subconscious, right?
#
You know, the changes happen to you when you're there, you don't only when you probably sit
#
and start realizing that you know that this happened at some point in time, but they become
#
so ingrained in you that you don't actually sit and question when did that happen because
#
they're just part of you know, they're so inherent in you.
#
And I'm just thinking a lot, I'm thinking that the sort of impulses that you would have
#
had and no doubt growing up, I would have had some regressive impulses as well, which
#
kind of go with time and exposure.
#
But these are very common, right?
#
And in your case, those are going because you're now in an environment, which is much
#
more advanced and progressive, and you also want to fit in there and those unconscious
#
pressures are also there.
#
And you are adapting to these new circumstances and you are changing in these ways.
#
But most people who have these impulses or these instincts, they don't have that opportunity
#
to change or a drive to change.
#
And then these impulses can solidify in a bunch of different ugly directions, whether
#
it is a lot of the sexually repressive behavior that people display, whether in social situations
#
or even as parents, you know, controlling their kids or whether it is, you know, just
#
You know, we see more and more incels, for example, an American term, but you see more
#
and more incels in acting out in India, you have things like love jihad and so on and
#
And all of these find different kinds of expressions.
#
And in a sense, you are perhaps the outlier who got exposed to an environment where the
#
But for most people, that is not the case.
#
Do you think that is gradually changing?
#
Because otherwise, what happens is that we get this could be a virtuous cycle where we
#
get more and more sort of liberal in that sense, and exposed to more and more diversity,
#
exposed to more and more people of alternate sexualities, exposed to more and more contexts
#
in which women in short dresses aren't threatening to us and we don't need to control the sexuality,
#
or it can become a vicious circle where, you know, repression leads to repression and so
#
And one could argue like I had an episode with Alice Evans on the differing rates in
#
which gender inequality is changing across the world and in India it's been slower than
#
And for a long period of time, the sense I get from her work is that it was really a
#
That because, you know, repression led to more repression, there was a drive to what economists
#
would call female seclusion, that women had to be kept at home, especially with caste
#
endogamy being what it is in the last 2000 years, and so on and so forth.
#
So you can have a virtuous cycle or you can have a vicious circle.
#
So when you look at the world around us, do you think India is progressing in the sense
#
that, you know, more and more people will lose these outdated notions?
#
Or do you think that it can actually become worse, especially with the kind of polarization
#
and the angry rhetoric we see around us?
#
I would like to believe again, no, there's no data to support this, right, based on what
#
you experience see, and it's say my personal experience, which may be totally wrong.
#
But I would like to believe like, no, based on my observation, my experience and how things
#
have moved that moving towards a virtuous cycle, not the vicious cycle.
#
So I'll give you a very small example.
#
Now I remember my, again, hometown, my favorite place, it was Seher, you know, there was time
#
when women, no, not ride a scooty and all, it was a big thing.
#
And no, everyone would talk, oh, look at that girl, riding a bike, wearing jeans now was
#
a big thing, you know, in a small town, in a village, small town, right?
#
But now it becomes so common, no, people take their scooty to work, no, there are lots of
#
women who are coming into workforce, which was a big thing in the small places.
#
The only job women were, if I can say, permitted a lot to do was teaching, because you affect
#
certain kind of respectability and like, no, so you will not find women workforce, especially
#
in certain parts of the country, say in offices, government offices, working as clerk or doing
#
But now that I see that changing, right, and to a large extent, I think it's also happening
#
function of both, I think the government also is deliberately trying to, especially in government
#
spaces jobs, trying to keep certain seats, percentage of seats for women, so there's
#
larger participation of women.
#
And women also wanting to enter the workforce, right, because then people's aspiration have
#
changed, you need more income to educate your kids, give them exposure to life.
#
So I think the economics of this will, you know, take over and then this entire notions
#
of patriarchy and then all of this slightly my sense and belief is based on what I see
#
and observe a very, very limited sense is that is probably giving going away.
#
Yeah, I mean, Alice's sense was that, I mean, the only thing that will get rid of patriarchy
#
in the long term is job creating growth.
#
So you know, hopefully we kind of have more of that.
#
How else did law school change you, like in terms of the way that you think about the
#
world, I think I have already established from the limited sample size of that one story
#
about frogs, that you have a curious mind.
#
But in general, tell me, you know, how did it change the way that you think?
#
Did it kind of help you think in more systematic ways?
#
What did it do for your reading and for your exposure to ideas?
#
So you know, at that kind of intellectual level, what were the currents and what were
#
So two, three things, first, now you're exposed to all kinds of ideas, people you agree to
#
with or not agree with.
#
Now you listen to everyone.
#
So I might not agree with you at all.
#
I mean, I couldn't stand you.
#
But I'd still sit and listen to you or your lecture, you'd be called, you'd be invited.
#
So that in itself, I think was huge, right, where the certain people who would be seen
#
very differently, but they would still come to law school, talk to us.
#
So I think that was one thing that is, that is something which has stayed with me.
#
The fact that like, no, you're not my enemy just because, no, you think differently from
#
me or you have a different viewpoint than me.
#
The only difference being, you know, Amit, as I said, violence is something, right, that
#
is the one thing that that is where you draw the line.
#
But everything else in terms of was, everything was in the realm of ideas, right?
#
And then you could contest anything.
#
So which was one thing that has stayed with me in terms of training as a lawyer, you know,
#
you do lots of research, you do lots of writing, you know, every time you do so many projects,
#
you know, we had some 60 projects to write, you know, we had a trimester system.
#
So you do lots of research and you would have, so generally train you to, law school trains
#
you to research well, look for a thing, be a little logical and rational in your arguments,
#
also be able to talk for long.
#
So I think all of that skill that you anyway pick up, right?
#
Because they're part of your, you know, course of being a lawyer or, you know, learning when
#
I mean, in terms of larger value sets, in terms of not the skill part of it, but the
#
larger value set, which defines you, because skills, you can go on learning on learning
#
all of that, but values mostly stay with you by and large.
#
I'd say all of this, the fact that, you know, that you respect people who are very different
#
from you, you know, the fact that, you know, you'd question things and you question even
#
the highest, you would question the director very openly, you would ask very tough question
#
So, and the beauty of the institution was that let you do that, right?
#
You were not, I mean, you had, you know, we had a board called 191A, where people could
#
write, the board itself was called Notice Board 191A, where you could write anything
#
So the free speech part of, you know, so I can't imagine, right, being in a school and
#
openly challenging your director, you know, in front of the whole university, putting
#
it out on a notice board, and thanks to those, you know, administrator teachers who were
#
liberal enough to accept the challenge to, you know, the authority and the questions
#
they were asked, nothing was personal in that sense.
#
So that is something I think I've imbibed from that.
#
So even as a civil servant, right, and there are numerous instances where people ask you,
#
question you, many of us get offended, I don't know why, I mean, you are a civil servant,
#
people are supposed to question you, challenge you, ask you, as long as they do it in a civilized,
#
polite manner, I don't think, you know, that should be an issue.
#
So that comes very naturally, this process of dialogue, this process of sitting on the
#
table, having a different viewpoint, agreeing to disagree, all of that, I think, has largely
#
come from my time in law school.
#
And I'm glad that, you know, and that has stayed me and that helps me even now when
#
And were there any, say, speakers or thinkers you came across or any books you read, which
#
changed the way you look at the world, which had that kind of profound influence on you
#
where you looked at everything differently or which was like a shock to the system and
#
made you think in a good way?
#
No, but that has never happened with me, right, there's never one person or one book that
#
had changed my life, inspired, it's always like a bunch of things which happens, no bunch
#
of friends you have, you know, what kind of books you read, a few good professors who
#
taught you, very difficult to say, like, there's one book which I read and changed my life
#
or there's one professor which influenced me, no, but they're good people, like, no,
#
they're still a professor I'm in touch with, Professor V.S.
#
Elizabeth, who taught history, she's now a vice chancellor in law university at Trichy.
#
No, I don't think we liked each other, no, I didn't like the course, I didn't like, she
#
was also disciplinary and in charge of discipline and we would have a huge fight, but now she's
#
one of my, you know, closest mentors, but in retrospect when I think, I realize, no,
#
although I didn't agree on most of the things she said, but she, I mean, she meant, well,
#
you know, she wanted us to, you know, learn things, question things, bring different kind
#
of viewpoint to us, so, and there are many people like, know her, even seniors, so not
#
one thing, but I think it was a larger ecosystem of the place, the place was very different,
#
And one process or rather two processes that people often go through when they kind of
#
grow older and come of age, and process one is that you figure out frames through which
#
you look at the world, in the sense that how do you make sense of the world, you know,
#
you tell yourself stories about it and all stories are incomplete because the world is
#
so complex and all stories are simplistic in some way or the other, but they are attractive
#
because they give us that comfort of thinking we figured it out, so very often many of us
#
will adopt a particular frame or a particular set of frames, and the second process is when
#
these frames interact with the real world and you find that the value is limited, that
#
the real world is messy and complex and you have to find a different way of sort of dealing
#
Now you've kind of, you know, spend that time in the real world where you are, you know,
#
as an IAS officer, and we'll speak more about that at length, but where everything that
#
you believe in is being tested against the messiness of the actual world, but did you
#
have any frames like that or any ideological attractions like that, so to say, which, you
#
know, dissipated when it came into contact with the world or were you just always open
#
and figuring things out, what were those processes like?
#
So I won't say that I would have very strict ideological frames, I will say I would always
#
have values, right, and then you define your own set of values.
#
For me, I always had, say, my core values, which were always fixed, which are even now
#
I don't think they are going to change, but then you also have peripheral values, which
#
are flexible, which change with the situation, time, circumstances you are in.
#
So I, you know, that's how I look at things.
#
I always had a set of values that I grew up with, and then some of these values are like
#
I grew up as a child, values of doing the right thing, being honest, no, I mean, this
#
just came because your parents, whatever you learn from your parents, your mom counted
#
your pencil every time, hoping that you didn't steal from someone else's pencil box.
#
So that's something I can never forget.
#
Did you ever steal a pencil?
#
I think so, no, because I remember getting the only time I got beaten up by my mother
#
was, no, she found an extra pencil in my pencil box.
#
I don't remember if I stole it or it came, and I didn't have an explanation for it, how
#
I know I was taken to task for having that extra pencil in my pencil box.
#
So no, so some of those values are there right every time.
#
So this question doesn't come right when people ask you, it's a very difficult, lots of my
#
friends which I find very difficult, I mean, they assume that people are corrupt environment,
#
which is sad, like, you know, that many of us who are honest, who don't take bribes who
#
And we don't have to go on flaunting it.
#
But no, this assumption by people who are educated have had exposure to think that everyone
#
takes money, everyone takes bribe, no, is quite painful.
#
And that's when I tell myself, right, it's very, very difficult because, you know, your
#
values are very different.
#
And no, you're beaten up for taking a pencil by mistake.
#
So it's highly unlikely that you take something which is not yours.
#
So those values, no, and a few values like that, which have stayed with me.
#
And I hope they stay with me for forever.
#
That's something I don't compromise on, I don't think I will compromise on.
#
But then again, there are lots of other values in periphery, which is not my core.
#
And all of us have to define our own core, I can't define for anyone else, no one should
#
That's how I look at things.
#
That's such a fantastic metaphor that extra pencil.
#
So tell me a little bit more about core values and peripheral values, like if you can give
#
So, for example, no, I'd say, again, how do you define honesty?
#
But I think, you know, being honest, for me is a core value.
#
But you would ask me next, now, what is honesty to you?
#
Is it only, you know, not taking a bribe, or it's also intellectual honesty, or it's
#
No, honesty in all sense.
#
Now, how do I define this?
#
No, because, no, my sense of what is right, may be totally different from your sense of
#
For example, is it okay if I use my official vehicle once to drop my parent to railway
#
Will you call me dishonest if I did that?
#
I will say it's okay if I used my vehicle once to drop my parents to railway station
#
because I didn't have a car.
#
So these are like really complex, right, question to answer.
#
And then that I have to answer for myself, no, I have to be comfortable in my own skin
#
doing things which I think is correct, doing things which are not correct.
#
No, will I do things which I think is not as per law or as per rule?
#
No, I won't do it, no, because there is no reason why I should do it.
#
And fortunately for me, there have never been an instance also.
#
No, again, people look at government and everyone else very differently.
#
In my 12 years of service, I've never been asked to do even one thing that I could not
#
And, no, God forbid, if I'm asked, suppose tomorrow, my response would be to say no,
#
because that's why I've been brought up.
#
So things like I would never say discriminate based on who you are and where you come from.
#
So these are for me the values I have grown up with.
#
It doesn't matter to me that which region, religion, language, caste, sexuality you come
#
from, a basic sense of honesty, being cautious to citizens.
#
For example, that's something I feel strongly about.
#
As a government servant, I mean, you have to start treating citizens as equals and not
#
And I feel strongly about it because my dad, if he has to go to government office, sometime
#
I get scared because I don't know how he'll be treated.
#
And that happens at cutting edge level many times.
#
So I make it a point to make sure that everyone I interact with in my official capacity, no,
#
I do it as an equal, complete respect.
#
I don't know why we should be talking about it.
#
All of us should be doing like that.
#
It doesn't happen, unfortunately.
#
So I guess these are some of the things I try and bring that in my workspace when I
#
Be respectful, polite to your colleague.
#
You don't have to be bullied at work.
#
And just because you're in a position of authority and influence, you don't go on bullying.
#
And there's enough examples of bullying in both corporate and bully bosses.
#
You can be efficient without being a bully.
#
So these are the things I try and stick to.
#
Again, your periphery, no, if you are doing some show and if I know you, can I call you
#
and request Amit, no, you're doing this, hosting this show, can you give me two pass?
#
I think no, because you're a friend, I am okay asking you for that, no, favor, as long
#
as I know you're not asking me to do something in return, that okay, Salil, I'll give you
#
As long as I have this file pending, please clear it.
#
So as long as I have that level of comfort with a friend where I know that there's nothing
#
in return being asked or being given, I am fine asking a friend and saying that, no,
#
I want to come and see that.
#
So that's a small example, but that's how largely I see things, but very difficult.
#
I don't know how to define them.
#
But they're there, right?
#
You know what is correct, what is not correct.
#
How do you lie to yourself?
#
I mean, I can lie to you, put up a face, but I can't lie to myself.
#
So I know when I do this, it's not correct.
#
And when I know when I do this, it's correct.
#
So your own moral compass, I would say.
#
I like the way you defined everything clearly in your own head.
#
So for you, it's easy to say when you're lying to yourself and when you're not, but so many
#
people who haven't defined it so clearly will lie to themselves at times, you know, which
#
is why I think it's important for you to know that you're lying to yourself and you're not
#
So just as an aside before we go in for a break, and after the break, we'll talk about
#
your years in the IAS, but an aside before that, what is your policy with Diwali gifts
#
Like my father, who was an IAS officer, had a strict policy that up to the level of mithai
#
or dry fruits, anything you can consume, everything else just goes back.
#
For a long time, I would refuse, I think, even when I was collector in Chandpur.
#
But then I realized I was being very rude, even fruits and all, people would get offended.
#
So the people who called me, right, there was this mayor of Chandpur who sent me some
#
fruits and I would scream at my guard like, no, why are you taking this, whatever.
#
And then she was really offended and she called me, she said, sir, like, no, I mean, this is
#
the least way we can bribe you through a fruit or whatever, right?
#
So we're not trying to do anything or influence, so I don't know why you get so offended.
#
And that really made me thinking and I was like, that was really rude.
#
So after that, as you said what your father said, my thumb rule is anything that you can
#
consume immediately, like dry fruit and sweets, that you accept and you largely give it to
#
Because there are lots of people who drop a box of mithai, all sweet, and then you have
#
people in your office working, you know, you ought to say, people, house help who come
#
to your house to work, you share with them.
#
But that is what anything which is expensive is a strict no-go.
#
You don't touch, you don't look, there have been instances when, you know, you got something,
#
I remember I got something and I didn't, also I thought it was rude to open, right?
#
Someone is giving you something, you just don't open it in front of them.
#
You do it when there is a family.
#
But in a formal setting, and never in my head I thought, right, in the wildest of my dream
#
that someone would give me a golden ring or something, during one of my farewells.
#
And then I was just like, I didn't know, so I just called that person.
#
She gave it out of love, whatever she was, you know, in the Jilla Parishad.
#
But I had to tell her that there is no way I can take it, you know.
#
So in rare instances, once or twice, where it has come to me by mistake, because I couldn't
#
check there, I politely returned, called them, and they have understood, you know.
#
And I didn't think they came from any bad place, it's just that, for them it was like,
#
hey, this is good, the boy is leaving the city, you know, he is making sweets, so out
#
of love, I don't think they meant anything else.
#
But yeah, that is, anyway, inappropriate for us to have taken it, accepted it.
#
So you return them politely and you say, whatever, send me a sweet instead, if you really want
#
Oh, sugar is poison, so sending you sweets is like, in a sense, killing you, if they
#
don't like you, they'll do that.
#
You should have, you know, while returning the ring, you should have given the filmy
#
dialogue, that madam, this is not a ring, this is a pencil, this is a pencil.
#
Time for the interval after the filmy dialogue, we'll be back after a break.
#
Long before I was a podcaster, I was a writer.
#
In fact, chances are that many of you first heard of me because of my blog, India Uncut,
#
which was active between 2003 and 2009 and became somewhat popular at the time.
#
I loved the freedom the form gave me and I feel I was shaped by it in many ways.
#
I exercised my writing muscle every day and was forced to think about many different things
#
because I wrote about many different things.
#
Well, that phase in my life ended for various reasons and now it is time to revive it.
#
Actually now I'm doing it through a newsletter.
#
I have started the India Uncut newsletter at indiancut.substack.com where I will write
#
regularly about whatever catches my fancy.
#
I'll write about some of the themes I cover in this podcast and about much else.
#
So please do head on over to indiancut.substack.com and subscribe.
#
Once you sign up, each new installment that I write will land up in your email inbox.
#
You don't need to go anywhere.
#
So subscribe now for free.
#
The India Uncut newsletter at indiancut.substack.com.
#
Welcome back to The Scene and the Unseen.
#
I'm chatting with Ashutosh Saleel on his career, on his wonderful book, Being the Change.
#
And you know, so far in the show, we've kind of reached the stage where you are at law
#
school and you're about to join the IAS.
#
But tell me about how that process is going.
#
Like on the one hand, you know, that sense of your alphabet in Bihar, starting from UPSC,
#
that's there at the back of your mind.
#
But at the same time, you are now in a world where UPSC are not the only letters in the
#
Your horizons have kind of changed.
#
So tell me about the process that led you towards thinking, ki haan IAS karna hai.
#
Yeah, so see, the UPSC thing was always a subconscious thing, right?
#
So when I go to law school, I'm not thinking of UPSC then.
#
I'm just trying to learn law.
#
And also, how do I go to law school?
#
Law is not something I have decided beforehand.
#
I have no background to law, no one does law, no one is even remotely.
#
In fact, my mother was, although I said she was very supportive of what I did, but she
#
She asked my brother, after all his education, going to DPS and all, is he going to be a
#
lawyer and practice like in a small court, district court, where she used to see lots
#
So she just couldn't understand all.
#
After she had not heard of law school, I went to law school because I didn't want to study
#
And law that time was a good option.
#
India Today had started coming with all these best law colleges report, National Law School
#
would figure prominently, I happened to read one of those, India Today report, which said
#
that once you pass out, you'll get immediate placement, 50,000 rupee in your pocket.
#
So that was the charm, 50,000 per month to me, which took me to law school.
#
It wasn't the love of the law, I knew nothing about law, it was also through exclusion because
#
you couldn't study science and maths, you needed to study something which was neither
#
science nor maths, biology, and it gave you a job and money.
#
So that's how I landed at law school, I wrote the entrance test, got through.
#
But once I was there, because it's also five year course, integrated course, they also
#
teach you liberal arts, sociology and economics and history, all of that you study.
#
That's when I started liking what I was reading.
#
And when I was there, I was like any other of my batch mate and general people, most
#
of us would usually build a CV around to get into corporate law firms.
#
That's how at least then, hardly anyone who wrote civil services, very, very few people
#
would get into, very few.
#
As it is, we had a smaller batch of 70 students per batch.
#
So civil service was there, but it's not something I was looking and seriously considering at
#
I was just doing my internship, working with judge or a lawyer, doing placement at the
#
And it was my fifth year again, the last year, that's when you start sitting for placements.
#
I sat for placement, I think I got into HLL and law firm, Amarchand Mangaldas, they were
#
I was still not very sure then also, whether I wanted to do corporate law or I wanted to
#
do something else, trial litigation, all of those questions were there in my mind.
#
I was not very sure where I wanted to be.
#
But I thought I will try corporate law because I didn't want to regret later.
#
They offered you decent amount of money, which was a big thing for someone like me.
#
So that's how I, I was quite clear that I would do it for some time, figure it for myself
#
If I don't enjoy doing what corporate law had to offer, then I either think of litigating
#
being a lawyer in the court or do civil services.
#
And that is what I did.
#
I finished my five year, I sat for placement, got into Amarchand Mangaldas, in fact, came
#
My first six months I spent in Mumbai, in the Mumbai office, lower Parel and then I moved
#
But then working there, I realized I was just not a fit, I was not meant to be a corporate
#
I didn't enjoy my work at all.
#
Every day, if you ask this question, what are you doing with your life?
#
That was unfortunately happening to me every single day.
#
I was asking this question to myself, why am I here?
#
Also with no disrespect to corporate lawyers, I have many good friends in that space.
#
There's good money, all of that.
#
I didn't see how I am contributing.
#
There's no direct dealing with citizens.
#
I'm sure the transaction that they do helps a great deal, the economy and all of that
#
obviously helps the country.
#
But the impact was indirect, right?
#
As a civil servant, there's a very direct impact of your work and what you do.
#
And there's lots of public interaction.
#
That was something I was always yearning for, which I never got as a corporate lawyer, right?
#
You only deal with, interact with a few clients, there's no larger public to interact with
#
and then try to find solutions to their problem.
#
I was solving a very, very small niche problem, not a larger administrative problem.
#
And then the fact that I was not liking it, in 12 years of my being in the IAS, not even
#
once I have asked that question, what am I doing with my life?
#
Which is a huge thing, right?
#
Every day asking that question, vis-a-vis in 12 years, never asking that question.
#
So I'm hoping that it's a correct decision that I took and made of making that move and
#
If I stayed for longer, I would have probably gotten used to that kind of money that many
#
of us get used to, right?
#
Because you have lots of money, you get used to a certain kind of lifestyle, good vehicles,
#
good house, lots of money to spend.
#
So I left at the right time because I thought if I stayed for longer, it will be difficult
#
to get away from that kind of lifestyle that lots of money brings to you.
#
So people will often speak about this trifecta of things that individuals need to figure
#
out for themselves, which is number one, what they like doing, number two, what they are
#
good at doing, and number three, what they are paid to do.
#
And obviously these can intermingle, but if you make a Venn diagram, the point where they
#
intersect is really the thing that you should be doing.
#
What you've kind of indicated here is in terms of what you liked or what you wanted to do,
#
it was to make a change in the world, to make a concrete change that you could see.
#
Would that be correct and what are the things you would then add to that?
#
And where do you think this came from?
#
Kind of thing I would want to do, I mean, make the change, yes.
#
But again, that's very, very, very big, right, very subjective to say make the change, all
#
of us say that's a very cliche also to say, I would say like, you know, try and find solution
#
to the administrative problem, you know, so there's a problem, there's no water say coming
#
Now there could be 10 reasons for water not coming, there could be a technical reason
#
that notarian is such that it can't come, there's no money, you know, there's no permission.
#
So there are 10 dimensions to that problem.
#
Now how do you solve that problem?
#
So bring everyone together and there are multiple stakeholders, there are village people, there
#
are different departments working, there will be state government, there will be some external
#
So to bring all of them together on the table and say, here is the problem, right, now let's
#
find a solution to that problem.
#
And then if you can solve that problem and make sure the water reaches that village.
#
So I think that brings me lots of joy and the challenge is to like, you know, make everyone
#
sit and say, can you find solution to that problem?
#
If you can't tell me what is your problem, let me help you find that, answer that question
#
So that is something I think that I find very interesting and that is something I keep looking
#
Also the fact that, you know, I keep asking that question in terms of even in government
#
there are lots of reliance on precedent, right?
#
And also this could happen for multiple reasons, it's easier.
#
People find it, you know, instead of answering 100 questions they will say, sir, it's like
#
Which I like, which really annoys me, I'm like, that cannot be reason, right?
#
Just because, you know, we have been stupid in the past, you can't continue to be stupid.
#
The fact that you question things, how you simplify things, you know, one other thing
#
that interests me a lot is simplifying things.
#
If you are asking for 100 things, do you really need those 100 things?
#
Why are you asking that question, you know, is it actually needed?
#
You know, how do you make it simpler for citizens to access and what are those steps that you
#
So I think all of this process really excites me and in the process, if you manage to do
#
some of it, you really, the impact it will have is millions and millions of people, you
#
know, one form you simplify in your district, right?
#
Some districts have 2 million, 3 million population, imagine the impact it will have.
#
I don't think any other job gives you that kind of exposure and the opportunity to do
#
So you've spoken about the push that made you leave your corporate job, that there's
#
no discernible impact, you don't wake up looking forward to the day.
#
Like today, when you talk about, you know, the pull being the desire to change things
#
in the way that you describe, you can articulate it clearly now because you have so many years
#
of experience of doing that.
#
But at that time, how would you articulate it to yourself?
#
And when you left your job, were you clear that right now it's IAS, that's where the
#
Were you clear or were there still doubts on how you, because even in a sense, entrepreneurs
#
are solving problems as well.
#
And very often, like they can choose any problem to solve, it's just a question of, you know,
#
how you apply your mind to that.
#
So but so what was your thinking?
#
How did you decide that you want to do IAS and, you know, in hindsight, everything looks
#
like it was destined to happen, but at the time, were there options that you were looking
#
What were your feelings about it?
#
Yeah, so there, I always had litigation in mind too, right?
#
Because I, you know, I thought, will I do a job or will I work for the government?
#
Otherwise, I'll do my own job.
#
I won't do anyone else's job.
#
That was something I had decided.
#
My father, the biggest example, he sincerely believes in it.
#
And no, my brother not follows the same thing.
#
He does his own stuff after working somewhere.
#
So that was, I think, was there in my head.
#
I had two options before me.
#
One was being a lawyer.
#
And second, this, honestly, if you ask me, if my parents were lawyers, I would not have
#
gotten into civil service.
#
Because being a litigating lawyer is not easy.
#
You know, there's a lot of struggle, you don't get paid, you have to slog for 7, 8, 10 years.
#
I was not too sure if I wanted to put in that kind of struggle and not that much work without
#
being paid reasonably well.
#
I don't know what the situation now is.
#
I still don't think litigating lawyers get paid well.
#
So that was one factor that pushed me away from litigation.
#
And then that's when IS became a serious thing because that I had ruled out temporarily.
#
But my backup option was always litigation.
#
If I had not gotten into civil services, IS specifically, I would have gone back and litigated,
#
been in some court somewhere.
#
Did your law training help you in terms of giving the IAS?
#
I think my law training was the reason I sailed through in all phases.
#
So law was obviously one of the subjects I chose for my mains.
#
But I do very well in essay, because I had spent a lifetime, five years writing those
#
We're generally good at writing essays and long paper.
#
In fact, two days back, my colleague, I don't know where, from where he picked up my essay
#
marks for my UPSC selection.
#
And he also had everyone else's essay mark that year, people who got selected.
#
And he said I was probably the highest or one of the highest.
#
So it happened twice, I wrote, and I would get very good marks.
#
And then interview, because in law you tend to be slightly more articulate, speak more.
#
So I think those two phases, essay and interview, I do very well.
#
And in general, I think when you write answer, you would be logical, you would structure
#
it well, you would stick to the word limits.
#
So largely I would credit to my training as a law student and also as a lawyer for a year.
#
So what happened there?
#
Yeah, so when I wrote, it's funny, and I felt ill, I was very happy.
#
I don't know if you know, but IAS is three phases, UPSC, exam, prelims, mains, and interview.
#
I wrote prelims, I was very happy, I did very well.
#
So I was like, ap to ho gaya IAS, aaram karte hain.
#
But prelims is only a clearing thing, right?
#
The main thing is mains, which is very subjective.
#
And then I went home, I felt ill at Typhoid.
#
I did no coaching for my subjects, except for GS, I would go take some coaching.
#
I was very confident I'll manage on my own.
#
So when I come back home post my Typhoid, I had very little time left, I had not studied
#
much for PABAD, I went to everyone, asked them for help, they all refused saying that
#
no coaching sab khatam ho gaya, abhi aap khudse paro.
#
And that was a very difficult phase, right?
#
I would give up every single day, I say I can't do it types.
#
But I stayed the course, I wrote the exam, every single evening I would question myself
#
ab nahi ho raha hai, salil chodde.
#
Nahi abhi tum Arun Jaitley ban jao, nahi yeh ban jao, achche lawyer ban jao, paise
#
kama ho gaye, civil service sab choddo tum.
#
That's how you rationalize when you don't want to do something.
#
So I kept doing all of that, but I stayed the course, I wrote the exam, I got into it
#
I got 195th rank, if I remember correctly.
#
And when you fill that UPSC form, you also have to give choices of services, there are
#
17-18 services you fill.
#
So I had only filled for three services, IS, IFS and IPS.
#
With my rank, I was getting IPS, but I was told I'm partially colorblind.
#
So I'm not fit for IPS, which is a little surprising because I can see all color individually.
#
They make you read this book called Ishihara Plate, there I had some issue reading that
#
numbers inscribed on those pages.
#
So then they didn't give me anything, I didn't get anything.
#
So I cleared the exam because I had put 0-0 against all other services.
#
So here I was, I get into a service that everyone wants to get into in the country.
#
I get a decent rank when I was not expecting anything and I still don't get into anything
#
And surprisingly, when I got into IS next year, I got the letter from the last year,
#
they had some seat left in some service saying that will you still be interested.
#
But then my result had already come for the IS.
#
So that's how I had to know that I wrote again.
#
And I was happy that I got into IS.
#
Also honestly, I was not too sure if I would have been, I would have made a good police
#
officer or a good, I think it's also temperament, right?
#
I don't think some people are not meant for some kind of jobs.
#
So I don't think I'm meant for a policing kind of job.
#
Although if I would have got it, I would have done it probably, I don't think I would have
#
I would not have given my 100%.
#
So in a way, I think it worked out well.
#
I'm glad for whatever reason, wherever I am.
#
Your rank in the first year, by the way, according to my notes was 194th, which reminds me of
#
Virender Sehwag in Melbourne.
#
I think that's how much he scored there.
#
So you know, when you got into the IS, tell me a little bit about your initial impressions
#
Like, you know, my dad joined the IS in the mid, in the early sixties.
#
I remember him talking about how in that generation, everyone was so full of idealism, we will
#
build the country, this, that, a lot of which dissipated through the generations.
#
I had Mahima Vashisht on my show recently, and she and her husband both passed the UPSC
#
and in fact, they met while training at Nagpur.
#
And one of the things that brought them together and made them bond is that they were in it
#
for idealistic reasons.
#
While most other people, according to them, were in it for the wrong reasons.
#
You know, status being one of these key reasons, ki laal batti wale gari mein main apne village
#
jaunga, sab dekhenge, you know, that kind of thing.
#
For the ROI kind of reasons, extra pencils, as it were.
#
So when you joined, were you an outlier?
#
You know, what did you kind of see around you?
#
And I know it's an awkward question for you because obviously you don't want to necessarily
#
comment on your batch mates, but this is also a public perception for a reason, right?
#
So how would you like to correct this public perception?
#
And what was your sense looking around you?
#
Because the idealism was that your idealism is a kind of pragmatic, specific idealism
#
that I want to solve problems more than something abstract, like desh ko pragati dilayenge.
#
So tell me a little bit about those early days and how your expectations matched with
#
So I'm afraid I don't agree with Mahima's observation of no services for two reasons.
#
Also, I see it slightly differently.
#
So there's also lots of democratization of civil services that has happened, right?
#
In the 70s, 80s, who were the people who wrote civil services?
#
People from cities, people who went to Stevens, Hindu colleges.
#
Now, who are the people who write civil services now?
#
People from official towns, small towns, farmers, rickshaw pullers, and all of us have an equal
#
chance of getting the thing.
#
And also people who are getting into it, right?
#
They're also a product of who they are, where they come from, right?
#
It's a huge thing if a rickshaw-waller's son today gets into an IAS on merit, right?
#
And if that person, right, for a moment feels that he wants to go home and whatever, I won't
#
judge that person, right?
#
I don't think that's the only reason that person wrote that exam.
#
So a large part of this is also where people are coming from in the services.
#
People are coming from lots of places from all castes, community, religion, people whose
#
family and generations I've not seen.
#
For example, I'm the only one in my family, you know, ever, paternal or maternal side
#
And I'm like more privileged than many of us people who write UPAC.
#
So I think a large function of this, like, you know, in terms of status, prestige also
#
comes from because, you know, who they are and where they come from.
#
That will be unfair to say that those people are not driven by idealism, they don't want
#
I will not make that judgment.
#
So my personal opinion is that many of us, when we come to the services, we may not be
#
All of us do not have to vocal about it and go on saying that, no, your initial interview
#
Because someone will come, local press, kya karenge abdesh ke liye, so you also don't
#
know ab kya karenge, no?
#
So you make those, abhi aapko kya pata, ab toh service mein aaye hain hai, you don't know
#
how things work, kuch toh aap bolenge unko, toh you say these nice things because you
#
genuinely don't know what else to say.
#
You will not say nahin jaunga kuch nahi karunga, sounga, toh aap yahi bolenge ki mai indeski
#
shiva karunga, achcha kaam karunga.
#
And that's why like, no, you get this response and these are all initial response.
#
No one comes to us after five years to ask, kya abhi aap kya karenge, kya karenge.
#
If you come and ask us, there will be a different set of answer that people will give.
#
But I would like to believe that by and large, people who come to the services, they are
#
driven by things to do.
#
Some people will always be there.
#
I mean, like, IS is also a representation of the society, right?
#
We don't exist in isolation of things around us.
#
And that is true for any service, right?
#
Any doctor, journalist, all kind of profession.
#
And so is the case with the IS officers.
#
But my experience and my feeling have been that many of us want to do good things.
#
And then because many of us are coming into services after having worked at multiple places,
#
the people who have studied abroad, the people who worked in private sector.
#
So the people are coming to do things because they've seen the world, they have seen how
#
They have seen money also because they have made money and they realize that they want
#
to be in different space.
#
And there will be some percentage of people, as I said, always.
#
So I, in that sense, tend to defer from people who think that a large number of us come to
#
services driven by no ulterior motives.
#
I still want to believe that, no, you want to do a good thing.
#
Even if everyone who gets into a particular situation is idealistic, ultimately, you'll
#
be shaped by the incentives around you, by the structures that you're part of and a common
#
criticism about any kind of big government anywhere could be that power corrupts.
#
You know, as Lord Acton says, there's this great book by Northcote Parkinson called Parkinson's
#
Law, where he talks about how the incentives of a bureaucrat would always be to maximize
#
their budgets, to have more people reporting to them, to increase their power and so on
#
You know, and those would be the incentives.
#
So you could get in with the best intentions and the best character.
#
But ultimately, you're a creature of your circumstances.
#
And if you're a part of that system, then you follow the incentives of that system,
#
whether it is a politician giving you an order from above, or whether it is, you know, incentives
#
from below, from civil society all around you saying, ki yaar mujhe contract do or a
#
10% law and whatever and everybody does it and what do you get by not taking so many
#
extra pencils and so on and so forth.
#
I'm just putting the most cynical question I can to you.
#
And even that other thing that you said about how a bureaucracy will be a reflection of
#
the society, it can in a certain sense also work the other way.
#
Like Jagdish Bhagwati once made an observation, I think around 2000, that in China, people
#
have a profit seeking mentality and India, people have a rent seeking mentality, right?
#
Now, I don't know how true he was about China, because I don't know China at all.
#
But what he would have meant by a profit seeking mentality is that in a free market, you only
#
make a profit if you provide a service to the other person.
#
So people are always trying to make money by providing value, whereas in India, a rent
#
seeking mentality would mean that people just want to make money by using the power they
#
have over others, whether it is in the government or whether it is using state power, you know,
#
as a crony capitalist would, for example, right?
#
And therefore, that would be an instance of a certain value in society of thinking of
#
everything in rent seeking terms and zero sum terms, you know, or even negative sum
#
terms because of the structure of government and not the other way around.
#
And obviously, these interactions can work both ways.
#
So I'm not saying that everything is the fault of the structures.
#
But the structures are the way they are, even, you know, thinking of someone who had bureaucrats
#
in his family and also thinking of what I have seen as a citizen, it does seem that
#
by and large, our state does have too much power over us, which will naturally lead to
#
It doesn't mean that individuals are bad people per se.
#
And it is also the case, in my view, that in India, we are less of citizens and more
#
In 1947, we replaced white skinned rulers with brown skinned rulers.
#
But it's the same top down oppressive system of government.
#
So what would be your response to all this?
#
Yeah, I mean, in the sense, yours, I won't say what you're saying is incorrect, right?
#
Because it's very difficult to say that, you know, because you have a system designed in
#
And unless you find an alternative to it, what is the option, right?
#
Because, you know, you have a country to govern, you will have those institutions, you will
#
So what you do is then you try and figure out, right, within those existing system structures,
#
how do you, for example, know one of the questions that really I find interesting is, how do
#
you make, and I think it keeps getting talked about in bureaucratic political circle is
#
that interaction between citizen and government minimal, right?
#
And that is what we should all aim to arrive at, right?
#
I don't want you to come to my office.
#
That's where I think the interaction happens.
#
If I can cut down on that interaction, we should be possible now with the use of technology.
#
There are many offices, departments, for example, passport, right?
#
It's a given example of how everyone talks about how the entire, you know, the passport
#
issuing system has totally been revamped in this country in a short span of time.
#
And there are many other services, right?
#
Many states are doing that, some at the district level.
#
So you will always need some structure.
#
You will always, otherwise, how will a country of this complexity and size will work?
#
So that will always be there.
#
But within those existing structure, how do you find innovative ways and solutions to
#
ensure that citizens are citizens, they don't become subjects.
#
And then their interaction, especially at the cutting edge, is reduced to minimal.
#
If you don't come to me, I don't know you, where's the question of, right?
#
But if it doesn't happen, of course it happens.
#
Anyone who is in a power of authority will try and exercise that power over you.
#
And it happens very often.
#
So when I said that I get slightly scared when my dad has to go to a government office,
#
I was coming from there because I don't know the clerk sitting there.
#
My dad doesn't go and say that, no, my son is an IS officer or whatever.
#
No, he may just say that, like, you know, find 50 reasons to not do the work.
#
He can't keep fighting.
#
You can't keep going to the court or keep complaining.
#
But like, if he has the option where he could do this on his phone, then this doesn't happen.
#
So I guess, and then people are thinking in that direction, honestly.
#
The government is also serious.
#
Income tax already started with something called faceless assessment.
#
So where tax, you're sitting, you're an income tax officer, initially towards jurisdiction
#
So if you're posted in Bombay, you're at this zone, you assess these 50 people.
#
Now, you could be assessing someone from, say, Guwahati.
#
You don't know the person, it comes randomly to you through a lottery, allotted system,
#
whatever software design system.
#
So things like this, you know, would probably make the interaction between citizens and
#
government much, much more better.
#
And this rent seeking, the only way is to improve your structure, modernize it, use
#
modern technology, you know, make sure we don't, as government, we interact very little
#
when it comes to delivery of services with the citizens.
#
That is the way ahead, otherwise, you know, but that problem is there.
#
I don't deny that problem at all.
#
But then there's also work which is happening to address that problem.
#
Now, what will all of that get addressed?
#
No, because the problem is also humongous, the size is so big, right?
#
And there's so much difference within country also, right?
#
You have state subject, you have, you know, central subjects.
#
So it's also a very, very complex country, right?
#
Ours is not an easy country to administer.
#
And then that's why I think, you know, that things take time slightly to work.
#
No, I'm heartened by what you're saying.
#
And a long time back, I did an episode with my friend, Madhu Menon, about regulations
#
He used to run this famous South East Asian restaurant called Shiok in Bangalore, ran
#
it for a few years, cult place, amazing food, sadly shut down.
#
And in that episode, he spoke to me about how of the many regulations he had to contend
#
with, there were two which contradicted each other, where the excise department said that
#
there can only be one entrance to the restaurant because they want to control the supply of
#
alcohol and the fire department said there have to be multiple entrances for safety reasons.
#
So the thing is that this is clearly, there is no way he can comply with every aspect
#
And in fact, he would invariably end up giving bribes to both the inspectors concerned.
#
And this was just a cost of doing business.
#
And on the margins, it drove many people out of business.
#
So you know, what you're talking about, the sort of the mindset of reforming government
#
and making it actually work, you know, I believe in that I've seen that, you know, I've interacted
#
with government servants before you, who I found to be outstanding people, so good.
#
In fact, I wondered, but and we've seen some government services improve dramatically.
#
But in general, at some level, and I'm not even asking a question so much, I guess, as
#
expressing pessimism, that the people who are asked to change the system are the people
#
who are gaining the most from it, you know, who will give up power voluntarily, right?
#
And that becomes difficult.
#
And this is by and large, I think also a large public perception where people have kind of
#
given up on the state, there's an apathy about it, ki kuch nahi hoga.
#
In fact, people will want to, you know, avoid interacting with the state.
#
I had a Rukmini S, the outstanding journalist on the show, she's done a book on great data
#
where she talks about how such a significant percentage of crimes, including crimes against
#
women don't even get reported because people simply don't trust the police.
#
So you know, from the inside, is this something that you see changing?
#
Because from the outside, it is quite likely that my view of it could be ossified and it
#
And I can't see the change, but from the inside, do you feel that there is that impetus and
#
more importantly, the incentives for change to happen?
#
First, I don't agree that, you know, Amit, when you say that people are giving up on
#
the government, I'll say there are certain kinds of people who are giving up on the government.
#
People who don't have to deal with government, people who have privilege, access, elite,
#
their interaction doesn't happen with the government because you don't need government.
#
But there's a large part of people, civil society, who are not giving up with the government
#
because government is too entrenched in their life, right?
#
So they'll never give up on government.
#
And that's a good thing.
#
Second, also, see, when you look at administration, how do you look at it?
#
Okay, I mean, it's not that we work in isolation, right?
#
There's so many pulls and pressure.
#
You know, there's so many pressure from, say, media, the judges, courts who hold us to account.
#
There's lots of political churning that happens.
#
So you might not want you to change yourself, but the people around you will force you to
#
Because if you are not keeping pace with the mood and realities of the time, I mean, you
#
can't just like, you know, be ossified and say, okay, I'll not do anything, but you'll
#
not be allowed to do that because there'll be so much pressure on you that you'll not
#
And that happens to us, right?
#
Even as a small level, when you work at the district collector level, you are under tremendous
#
If your caste certificates are getting delayed, you can't say that citizens have no option.
#
The journalist will roast you, someone will take you to the court, there'll be dhadna
#
And first, your own driven incentive where you want to do things, but there's also pressure
#
If you don't want to change, there'll be lots of outside pressure, which you'd rather avoid,
#
Why would you want to be, you know, get encircled by, you know, thousands of people chanting
#
slogans against you, raging slogans against you, you'd rather do things on your own, try
#
So I don't think there is an inertia and also because you think people are interested, party,
#
they wouldn't want to change.
#
If you don't want to change, then people will force you to change.
#
So you'd rather, you know, be with the time, change wherever one has to change.
#
So I'm like still very high on government, I'm a firm believer in, you know, what government
#
does, what I do, and I'll not be as pessimistic as, you know, some of us would be about the
#
And I accept your point that only the privileged are apathetic about the government because,
#
you know, that does kind of fit me.
#
Let's get back to your sort of concrete narrative about, you know, when you joined the IAS,
#
you know, what was the training like and what was then your first kind of posting?
#
How were those early days like?
#
Yeah, so, you know, I'm sure, I don't know if you know, you would know because your dad
#
So all of us do this two-year training in Masuri, you know, the foundation which you
#
These are like basic training, which is more, you know, there's lots of talk about this
#
Training equips you to now deal with the situation in the field.
#
But there are again two ways.
#
You know, the way Academy looks at it is that, you know, you're people from different walks
#
Because anyone can write in UPSC and BSL 70, you don't have a prescribed qualification.
#
So what training does is that it just brings everyone on a common platform.
#
It necessarily does not equip and, you know, prepares you to deal with a, say, riot-like
#
situation or someone, you know, forcing you to do something which is incorrect.
#
It's also very difficult to, I don't know, so there's lots of demand, you know, when
#
we get trained in the Academy and go to the field and we are met with real life situation
#
and you're like, this never came up in the training, right?
#
And then you go back and you crib to your seniors and you're like, your training is
#
irrelevant because it doesn't relate to what happens actually in the field and on the ground.
#
So I don't know, but there is a merit in what they have to offer in terms of the idea is
#
Lots of you learn on your own, which can just give you basic stuff to deal with, basic skills
#
Large of this is also value and ethics driven, right?
#
How do you teach value and ethics when you are like 26, 27, 28 years old?
#
A large part of what you do and how you function comes from your value systems, right?
#
So skill is one part that is given.
#
You can be skilled and taught some skill, some CPC and IPC section.
#
But right, I could be crooked, I could come from a bad place and use that IPC section
#
in a manner which is absolutely antithetical to what is just and correct.
#
So I think that is the most challenging part and that is the difficult part.
#
Is there any way to tackle that?
#
And then there's a concern, so there's also a general concern that many of us are getting
#
into services at a higher age where our values and belief systems are already fixed.
#
There's very little that an academy or institution can mold in that way.
#
So there is this aspect, but I think people by and large pick up things on their own.
#
You expose, there are some lectures which will happen, you will have people coming from
#
field who will talk about their experience exposure.
#
But I think the one year that you spend, one spends in the field as assistant collector
#
after your Masuri stint, where you are just a probationer and you are tasked in a district
#
with the collector and you look at multiple departments.
#
So for two months I'll be BDO, I'll be a Tehsildar somewhere, that gives you lots of exposure
#
to how things work at the lower level in the government, at the artistic level or the block
#
That's a good exposure that you get for a year.
#
And after that, you get your first posting, all of us get our first posting, go to field
#
and that is when you are supposed to decide your romance with training, Masuri, everything
#
gets over and comes the action field, field posting where you will have dharna, you will
#
have hartaal, you will have people going on fast, indefinite fast, you will have all kinds
#
of pressure, you are new, you are not too sure what you are signing on, you are looking
#
everything with the suspicious eyes, you read every file, sometimes the language is new.
#
For example, for me everything was in Marathi, so you have to learn a new language, you have
#
to read the rules and regulations in a new language, right?
#
Which is not in English.
#
So to be able to cope up with all of that simultaneously and still be able to deliver.
#
And I think there is pressure, but there is also lots of fun in it because that's what
#
you wanted to do and now you are getting to do it, so why complain?
#
So tell me about your first gig.
#
So I was posted in 2012, that was when I was posted, August 2012, in this place called
#
Chandrapur in Maharashtra, either luck would have it, I just kept doing all my posting
#
So much so they call me, everyone calls me that, you would be called Chief Secretary
#
So I go to this place which is a forest, 47-48% forest.
#
So from Bihar, never seen any forest in my life.
#
You go to this place called Chandrapur, which is eastern Vidarva, 2 hours, 2 and a half
#
So it's duo, we call it assistant collector.
#
I was also, our batch was also given charge of travel department.
#
So we were doing two jobs simultaneously.
#
So first posting two jobs, travel department, complex, complicated, lots of issues of land
#
and everything, civil wars, you do land and other job.
#
I quite like the place, I go to Chandrapur in August, which is monsoon, it's all green
#
Honestly, I fell in love with the place because I had never seen so much greenery in my life.
#
Then so much so, as the luck would have it, I did my first posting there, which was, in
#
a sense, you're also learning, everything is new to you, right?
#
You're learning the language.
#
For example, just a funny instance, if I can quickly narrate.
#
I was learning Marathi, Chandrapur is in Vidarva, which used to be part of undivided MP.
#
So people in city were comfortable with Hindi, because Vidarva was part of MP in Nagpur,
#
People would speak Hindi.
#
So I was learning Marathi.
#
It was difficult for me to learn Marathi because everyone would talk to me in Hindi.
#
So I would try and speak to them in Marathi, but they would all know Hindi and they're
#
like, Arieski Marathi bahut tight hai, isse hum Hindi kam chalate hai, bhaiya ye to kya
#
bol la hai, kuch samajh mal nahi aata hai.
#
Unlike my friends who got posted in Western Maharashtra, Kolhapur, Sangli, they picked
#
So there this, and I was doing two jobs, I had two offices, there this bunch of women
#
who come, they met me in the travel department office.
#
And then they had to again meet me, they were following up for some issue.
#
So next time when they came to meet me, they came to my SDO office, other office.
#
And there are two words in Marathi.
#
One is aavartu, which is I like you, and then is aurakto, which is I recognize you.
#
So I meant to tell those women that I met you before, I recognize you, mi tumala aurakto.
#
And I ended up saying mi tumala aurakto.
#
And their face fell, right, because from I recognize you, it suddenly meant no, I like
#
And then I realized, okay, there's something I've said, which is not correct.
#
But I'm saying, but yeah, I was new, I was learning the language, no one would judge
#
So did you realize what you did?
#
So then like, because their face fell, they're suddenly, they're smiling and suddenly they
#
were like the puzzle look on them, their face.
#
And then I realized, okay, I said something totally different to what I meant.
#
But I guess it was fun, but also lots of learning, especially in travel department, you're dealing
#
with lots of rules, travel sub plan, non-travel sub plan in your first posting, the money
#
to be spent, you have to ensure that the approval is right.
#
So all of this is learning and there's no one to teach you that, right?
#
I mean, it's not that there's a teacher and you say, I have a doubt, can you clear it?
#
You are on your own and many of the seasons people can question you, challenge you.
#
But then I guess, you get trained to do that.
#
You keep read files, you ask questions.
#
For me, I'll always ask many questions and that will help me probably decide.
#
And also I think the fact that I did law, in a way I think it still helped me because
#
I'm not stuck with the black and white letter of the law.
#
I also look at the larger intent and I interpret, right?
#
So I'll not go by the mere words of the law, which many of us do.
#
And I don't blame them because not everyone is trained as a lawyer, right?
#
But my training as a lawyer gives me that comfort.
#
When I decide, I look at law slightly differently, I also look at the larger picture, I look
#
I'd also look at like, if I interpret in a particular way, is it more just or is it not
#
So all those questions I ask, even small decision that you take and make, that probably I've
#
always felt that has helped me.
#
Some of my friends think that, in my cadre, that that helps me because of my legal training.
#
Thinking aloud, I think one conflict that someone in your position, any IAS officer
#
would come up with is a conflict between the law of the land and the people's understanding
#
of what the customs are and what natural justice is flowing from there.
#
In the sense that Hayek made a distinction between law and legislation where in his case
#
he spoke about law being sort of the conventions of a particular place which have evolved for
#
a reason and which have that sound basis, whereas legislation is whatever the rules
#
set by the state which may or may not match the rules of the game that society actually
#
And it strikes me that especially in a situation like tribal affairs, you must be running against
#
this conflict because even something as basic as land rights, there would be one, there
#
would be the view of the state on this, and two, the view of tribals would be completely
#
And in your book, of course, you speak about people who fought this exact same fight from
#
the tribals' point of view.
#
So is this something that you became aware of gradually or you were cognizant of from
#
And then how do you navigate this?
#
Because as an officer of government, you do have to uphold the primacy of government in
#
these matters and the primacy of the rules of the game that you play by.
#
But at the same time, you realize that what you are doing and what the state is doing
#
can in their eyes be incredibly unjust.
#
So it can get very complex.
#
Let me be honest about this.
#
It's not easy because there are a set of people who think these laws are unjust.
#
They don't answer their aspiration or how they see things.
#
They're in contrast to what they do.
#
And then you have a set of rules for whatever reason they're there.
#
In land issue, it will happen.
#
It may happen in other stuff also.
#
Forest in terms of collecting forest produce, access to forests, whether can you go inside
#
There is a classic argument of we've been doing it for thousands of years, right?
#
Now you are not letting me go inside the forest.
#
What do you do in cases like that?
#
So what you do is, again, how do you implement those laws?
#
Are you going to be, if there's some practice which is going on for thousands of years,
#
are you going to be so strict that you will create a law and order situation or are you
#
going to go easy with that?
#
So again, very difficult to define, but it becomes very case specific.
#
Most of us would take a liberal view and would say, these poor people, are they taking away
#
these resources and building palaces out of it?
#
This is for livelihood.
#
So most of us would take a liberal view in that situation and would say, it's not harming
#
It's not affecting anyone.
#
Can we go easy with people on this?
#
But they would say, right, like situation or like a caste conflict.
#
In those cases, obviously, there's no question of going easy, because then it just questions
#
your own very basic foundation of the state and whatever values that state is built upon.
#
So in those cases, probably, you would be very, very clear and you would not use that
#
You would say, what is right is right, what is wrong is wrong.
#
But again, very, very case specific.
#
Someone could read that very strictly and say, no, rule is rule.
#
And that could lead to conflict and that could lead to issues.
#
Do you remember any concrete instance where you had to take a particular decision, but
#
at the same time, you empathize with where these people were coming from?
#
And had you not been in your official chair, you would have agreed with them.
#
But it's just a borderline thing where you can't possibly know what the right decision
#
The second thing off and immediately is, no, there's something called caste certificates.
#
If you interact with government or you have to do anything with government, job, anything,
#
most important document one can have.
#
So there is a rule that say, suppose if you are a tribal and if you need a tribal certificate,
#
you need to have documents from 1950s of any of your father or grandfather, which would
#
not show your school living certificate with your caste name in it, something like that.
#
Many cases, someone will have documents say for 1951, 1952, or people who do not have
#
any documents, but you know it's a tribal village, he's only tribal.
#
What do you do in those cases?
#
So if you start giving certificates, then you may open a floodgate.
#
It becomes very difficult because then discretion can also be misused.
#
Say you are not misusing it, but people down, there could be 10 people misusing that discretion.
#
Then you will have people who are not entitled to get those certificates, getting those certificates
#
and appropriating the benefits which should go to a schedule tribe who is from that particular
#
So your heart will bleed in cases like that because you know that person is a schedule
#
tribe or like one year, but the law has put a arbitrary cutoff marks of 1950 year.
#
So those situations you feel terrible, you feel very bad about it, but there's nothing
#
you can do because if you do it, the larger one is of course you being people will question
#
Even if you go ahead and do it.
#
The larger question, if there's no guarantee that someone is not going to misuse that to
#
give it to people who don't deserve it.
#
So those dilemmas do occur and you do feel bad, but then I guess you go ahead, move on.
#
You can't solve every problem, so you try and do your best.
#
So you know, I mentioned to a WhatsApp group of my writing students today that I was chatting
#
I did this in the context of I wanted to share your lovely piece on your friend and I send
#
And one of them mentioned that she actually worked with you in your time as in Chandrapur
#
and she had very good things to say about you.
#
I forgot to take her permission to name her, so I won't do that on the show, but she told
#
me three things about you.
#
And I want to ask you about each of them and don't worry, they're all positive things.
#
And one of them is that you were extremely good at balancing political influences in
#
the sense that there might be pressure put on you from wherever.
#
And at the same time, you know, something that you're doing is the right thing to do.
#
And you'd be very good at navigating those pressures and making sure that, you know,
#
you acted optimally as it were.
#
Tell me a little bit about this, because another classic, perhaps Bollywood influence view
#
of the Indian state is that politicians will, you know, put their feet up on their chair
#
and give orders and the poor bureaucrat, if he doesn't do something, he is transferred.
#
So I'm guessing reality is, of course, way more nuanced.
#
You just mentioned that in 12 years you have never been asked to do anything that you felt
#
uncomfortable with fundamentally.
#
So what was this like, because the other side of that view that I get is that, listen, even
#
politicians are, in a sense, accountable, they want to govern well.
#
But sometimes they just don't know how, because they are very good at playing the game of
#
coming to power and winning elections.
#
But the game of governing is something completely different.
#
But they want to do well.
#
And luckily, they have trained people like you to help them do that.
#
Like, have there been moments where you've had to kind of juggle political sort of pressures
#
and how does one deal with this?
#
Is that an extra constituency you have to cater to, that if I'm doing something, I also
#
have to sell why I am doing this to the person above me?
#
So I can only speak from my experience and that of working in Maharashtra now, one year
#
So this I've never understood, this vilification of politicians.
#
There may be a few examples here and there, right?
#
But to paint all politicians with the same brush, I've not understood.
#
I mean, right, people might think I'm whatever saying whatever I'm saying.
#
But my experience, again, as you said, they are also accountable, right?
#
And then politicians life in this country is not easy.
#
They are held 24x7 accountable.
#
As bureaucrats, we switch off our phone, go to sleep, right?
#
But I know of MLAs and ministers getting called at 2 a.m. saying that there's no light in
#
my house, in my village.
#
Not many IAS officers get called at 2 a.m. in the night and they have to answer.
#
And I can choose not to answer because I'm not getting votes from there, move on.
#
But that he or she has to get elected from that place.
#
So she can't afford not to answer that call because that person will not vote next time.
#
So first, I think it's slightly unfair, in my opinion, because I have met, seen lots
#
of hardworking politicians.
#
They also have lots of balancing competing interests to balance, right?
#
I don't necessarily have to do that.
#
But when you are a politician, what is your skill set, the multiple competitive interests
#
in society, how do you bring them all together and try and speak for that, bring some kind
#
Or at least that is expected of a politician.
#
And that's what probably all well-meaning politicians do.
#
People who are here in politics for the long haul, I think they understand this much better.
#
Now, if someone is here for a short term, no, I'm here for five years.
#
This is what I want to do and get away.
#
Then it's a different thing.
#
But any politician with this salt who is in the game for a long haul, I think wants to
#
No, they would want to do things while also catering to their constuency, there will be
#
Now, what is this relationship between a bureaucrat and a politician, especially IAS officer, I'm
#
saying, because our interaction is probably the most with the politician.
#
I don't think any other service interacts as much with the politician as an IAS officer
#
So someone was telling me, I remember, I don't know where I heard this, they're like politicians
#
for us, they're like the fireball.
#
You have to be closer so as to keep getting the warmth.
#
But you can't get very close, otherwise you'll burn.
#
So that balance, that distance is very important.
#
And also, it's slightly, I think, arrogant on anyone's part to assume that politicians
#
are not smart, they don't know things.
#
They might not be articulate like us, some of us who have had the exposure to education.
#
But any single day, there is no way you can beat their knowledge of their constuency.
#
When I go as a collector, how many years I spent in a district, two years, three years,
#
I've not worked there in that district before.
#
But he or she as a politician has been there for 30 years.
#
Why would I want to fight with that person?
#
I would rather learn from him or her, take her expertise, understand what the issue is,
#
I'm not saying that there will not be pressure, I'll be stupid to say that there's no pressure.
#
Of course, there'll be pressure.
#
The people who will ask you to do certain thing that you'll not be comfortable, you
#
don't want to do things.
#
But then how do you do this?
#
You make that clear through your action and you say very politely, sir, these are the
#
five things which can happen.
#
And you make sure that those five things happen.
#
You don't delay those five things.
#
Then the politician has the confidence in you because then you've said, I can do these
#
five things, these are in the norm.
#
And you deliver on those five things because at the end of the day, he has to go seek votes
#
I don't have to go and ask for those five things.
#
But for those three things you can't do, you tell the person politely, sir, I can't do it.
#
But you can't pick up the phone and say like, who are you, why are you saying all these
#
Because then he also, he or she has ego, right?
#
See, they've spent 30 years, 20 years, 25 years in that place.
#
You come from outside and you make them feel that you know all.
#
They might not know the nitty-gritty of the rule, but they know the context, they know
#
the society, they know the issue much better than I would ever know.
#
So why would you not capitalize, not partner with them?
#
And again, it's a very personal thing.
#
I have not done things which I could not do and they've not, no, whatever, felt bad about
#
I mean, they also judge you, right?
#
Because for us, they tell us that before you go to an ex-district or posting, your entire
#
chitta reaches there, your entire history, geography, if someone smokes, what brand of
#
cigarette he or she smokes, what kind of clothes they wear, all of this is there in public
#
And all of this reaches much before you reach your new place of posting.
#
So it's also how you conduct yourself and how you act and what you do.
#
Like if you've been compromised, then why are you complaining about it?
#
If you have been doing it for a benefit, then I think it's likely too much to get up and
#
say that no politicians have been telling me because you yourself have been compromised.
#
You have done things in the past you shouldn't have done, then I mean, yeah.
#
So by and large, I don't know, I would work if there are issues, it's okay.
#
I would politely say and say, please move me out, I can't do this.
#
And then people have been moved out.
#
People go out if they don't work well with politicians because you have no choice but
#
to find some common ground.
#
You can't keep fighting in a political democracy where politicians are your bosses.
#
How do you work if you keep fighting every single day?
#
Who suffers in a district if you put me as a collector?
#
And if you are my minister and if I don't get along well with you, what is the fault
#
of these 3 million people?
#
Did they have any choice in getting me there?
#
Why should they suffer?
#
Because I bring my ego on the table and I can't get along and have a working relationship
#
So I don't think we should lose sight of all these questions because at the end of the
#
day, you are there to deliver and do a job.
#
And if you can't find a way to work, then you should make way for someone, not just
#
be there and make life difficult for citizens who have no say or choice.
#
This is a great point and in fact, I am struck by what you are saying about every future
#
posting a dossier on you will be sent to the politicians in question.
#
I think they can just end this episode and they will straight away know that hey don't
#
mess with this guy, yeh matlab sida kaam hi karega.
#
You know, I recall recently with all the political drama in Britain when Liz Truss's government
#
was on its final days, there was this video which went viral from this Tory MP who was
#
sort of complaining about how the abysmal performance of her government had endangered
#
the Tory MPs and they'd have trouble in the next elections.
#
And he gave this fantastic line where he said there is nothing as X as an ex-MP, right?
#
And that totally sums up the kind of incentives that politicians have to deal with, they have
#
At the same time, I would say that politicians come to power on the basis of support from
#
different interest groups and particular vote banks, which then want their pound of flesh
#
So the pressures are of course there, but as you've pointed out, it is up to the individual
#
officers to sort of stand their ground wherever they can.
#
And is that dramatic sort of Hindi film thing of, you know, give it to me in writing?
#
Have you ever said give it to me in writing to someone?
#
I haven't, honestly, I don't know, I've been lucky, I hope I continue to be as lucky as
#
I haven't had that situation at all, nowhere I had to pick up a fight or no.
#
I have told people and politely, again, the one thing, you know, thumb rule for me is
#
if I don't agree with you, if you are a minister and you're sitting with 200 people, I mean,
#
I don't question your authority like, you know, and in front of everyone say, no, no,
#
sir, ap toh kuch bhi bol rahe hain, aise thodi hota hai, you know, that man would feel completely
#
He like, no, there'll be no authority, no one will go to him for any work.
#
If the message goes that like, no one listens to him as a minister, then why would anyone
#
So the one thing thumb rule for me is that you never say these things in public when
#
a politician is sitting, you meet him or her in private, explain to them, this is not how
#
it's going to happen, it doesn't work.
#
And it has worked fine for me, I may be lucky, I don't know, maybe other people's experiences
#
But fortunately, at least my batch, some of the people I know, again, batches are bigger,
#
people are in different states, you don't interact so much.
#
At least I can speak for Maharashtra, you know, because I work in that cadre.
#
My batch mates, I don't think would have had that kind of experience.
#
I have not heard that someone being victimized and someone being hounded because they didn't
#
do things which they were asked to do.
#
So that also brings me to the other aspect of it that beyond the point, you can't really
#
hound an IAS officer because it's like a job for life, right?
#
And another common complaint people will have about IAS officers is that accountability
#
Like in the episode I did with Mahima, for example, she pointed out that if once you
#
join the services, where you are at age 59 will depend on your rank in an exam that you
#
gave at age 24, 25, 26, whatever.
#
You know, it's almost as if your destiny is kind of marked out by that.
#
And now I'm extrapolating and these are not Mahima's words, but beyond that, that because
#
there is no accountability per se, no way of rewarding for good performance or punishing
#
bad performance, the incentives to actually work with intensity to work hard kind of the
#
external incentives go away.
#
You could still be internally driven as you no doubt are, and I'm sure many of your colleagues
#
are, but not everybody is.
#
But those external incentives are A, towards complacence and B, towards a status quo bias
#
where you will never want to change anything because God knows what you could be accused
#
of, you know, and it's much better just to, you know, always take the safest route while
#
that may, the safest route may not always be the most optimal.
#
So what would your response be?
#
I think that's a fair criticism, right?
#
That's fairly talked about and written about, you know, it's that, you know, incentive for
#
people to do certain things because time on all of that I think is fairly talked about.
#
I'm sure people are aware of this, you know, and they're trying to find some answer and
#
there may be lots of inertia resistance from within the bureaucracy also, system also,
#
because all of us are happy with this status quo, right?
#
You don't want to be, I wouldn't want to be held accountable every three years,
#
show how much work you've done or not, and then be confirmed.
#
No, so I'm sure, no, it's complex.
#
So that's a fair criticism, you know, which is that, and that probably in a way, you know,
#
makes many of us status quoist.
#
You, I would still become a principal secretary even if I didn't sign 10 files sat on it,
#
you know, because that is not a determinant in my promotion, only thing being the number
#
So that, that does, it shouldn't be left to your only inner drive, right?
#
There has to be some incentive for people who are bright, who want to work hard.
#
Otherwise, no, as of today, it's left to my inner drive.
#
I want to solve problem.
#
If I don't want to do it, I don't do it, right?
#
This, it's very difficult to get rid of people once you are in the service.
#
So all of this is there, I mean, I can't say that they don't exist.
#
So the second good thing my friend said about you is that she said that you use data very
#
And I want to ask about that as well, because our systems of governance often seem incredibly
#
ossified in the sense that you go to a regular government office for some Chota Mota work
#
and there'll be all these piles and piles of paper files and dusty and whatever.
#
And it just seems like it's stuck in not even the 20th century, the first half of the 20th
#
century, that ways of doing things are archaic.
#
And even when the government actually tries to modernize itself and build a website like
#
famously the IRCTC website, the website's a mess, nothing really works.
#
And I understand that in certain areas, like you mentioned passports, there's been a lot
#
of modernization and all of that is happening.
#
Now, the counterpoint to that is that there are people like you who are then bringing
#
their modern training and their modern methods into governance and kind of using that.
#
So what was your experience like in sort of entering this vast rumbling machinery of bureaucracy
#
and applying everything that you had learned in law school or otherwise, applying all of
#
these things to make this machine work better?
#
So, I mean, again, I look at it two ways.
#
One is that I think your heart needs to be at the right place.
#
That is the core thing, if you ask me, right?
#
Are you guided, directed by right thing, correct thing?
#
You bring, there is no personal motive that you bring on table, right?
#
I'm not doing X because no, it helps me.
#
So I think that is the core of it.
#
But again, that's slightly subjective.
#
Second is in terms of processes and in terms of technology you use, processes you adopt,
#
systems you try and put in place, that is also equally important.
#
So the second part, for example, data you mentioned, right, you talked about, and I'm
#
reminded of very famous Nayan Moorthy's quote, and I'm sure you've heard of it.
#
No, I mean, in God, we believe everyone else bring data on the table.
#
So I'm a law student, I don't like number, maths, I hated it.
#
But when I look at things, how do you, you can't be deciding things based on intuition,
#
If I have say money as the stick collector, to put in some place, how do I decide which
#
block to spend that money on?
#
It can't be like some officer said, no, unko lag raha hai ki wahaan pe iski kami hain, unko
#
Unke paas koi figure hain, number hain.
#
So that is the one question that I keep asking, you know, and that data makes me comfortable
#
because then it's shown of any bias, subjectivity, right?
#
I could have my own biases, I can have these and XYZ for pushing for one particular thing,
#
but data, I'm hoping that won't have any biases.
#
So that helps you decide, you know, well, so that's why I was, when I was in the district,
#
I was pushing hard to get data from the block level, village level, and then use that data
#
to make a decision for say allocation of funds.
#
So if you know that electricity fund has to go, you look at the data and you say, as far
#
as my data is concerned, I see a need here.
#
And if you are an engineer, you are saying, no, I should spend money there.
#
Then you better explain to me, no, because my data is saying something else.
#
And that really helps because when you confront people with data, they really need to give
#
They just can't say, I feel that way.
#
They either need to counter that with the data or like something, whatever, you know,
#
that they can justify solidly.
#
And that's why I think, you know, I still feel and believe that all our decisions have
#
to be rooted based in data, we should have good data because then that will help you
#
decide not on intuition.
#
And I don't think it works because you're dealing with no real problem.
#
And you need to understand what those real problems are.
#
And no, you're not dealing with issues of right now, feeling vacuum in friends life.
#
So come on, give me some solution, give me some knowledge.
#
We don't have water in our village.
#
So you have to get it in this village, you have to get it in this village first.
#
How do you decide that?
#
There are a thousand people here, there are ten people there.
#
So maybe we brought a thousand people to the village first.
#
And data helps you do that.
#
Can you give me a concrete example of some complex problem, which you helped solve or
#
at least you tackled with the use of data?
#
I won't say complex, it was a daily routine problem, right?
#
When you work, when we work in district Maharashtra, slightly function differently because we have
#
something called district planning committee.
#
So lots of district planning happens at the district level.
#
Collectors are the member secretary, you have a minister who is in charge.
#
And they would spend money, say 300 crore, 350 crore in a year in the district.
#
That's lots of money for a district.
#
In addition to fund that you get from government of India, state government.
#
And then there are multiple heads on which you spend money.
#
And state government gives you a very broad guideline.
#
That health, 3%, education, this person, that person.
#
And as you said, like there will always be pressure group, political pressure group.
#
So you will have someone, some MLA who would say that, no, they would want money for this
#
PHC in their constituency and you would have someone else who say, no, I want money in
#
So the one way to resolve this is show them this data, right?
#
Then it's not your headache, it's their headache.
#
And you say, this is what it says and show it to your concerned minister.
#
So I think it really solved lots of problems.
#
And also I think it also helps you reach out to people who may not, who you may not reach
#
And if I don't have a voice and if I'm not represented, if there's someone not speaking
#
for me, then there's a chances in a noisy political democracy like us that you may be
#
But if I have the number and I know, okay, there's some people who are being left out
#
there because they have no, don't have political representation or there's no one speaking
#
for them for whatever reasons.
#
You'd still as an administrator would want to do something there.
#
Whether you succeed or not succeed again, may depend on multiple thing, right?
#
But you will still think about that issue, you read that issue, you bring it to someone's
#
notice or someone will talk about it.
#
So I think that is a gap, that data helps you address really well.
#
It helps you answer those questions where people with very little voice in a system
#
representation, administrator can still reach out and do something about it.
#
And is it becoming normative in certain situations like the ones you mentioned that data should
#
be used, make decisions on the basis of data, or is it an, are these ad hoc initiatives
#
by people like you and other places, it may not happen.
#
So I think district level, I think, you know, it's still not being formalized totally.
#
You don't have like every district dashboard and using that data.
#
I honestly don't know even know what's happening in the district I worked, if they're still
#
using the data or not using the data, because as you said, it was an ad hoc mechanism, right?
#
So some states do, I've been told that, you know, Gujarat has a very good dashboard, they
#
use lots of data in decision making.
#
Some states are, I think, getting there.
#
But there's obvious recognition of the need to use data in administration, there are people
#
who are talking about it, and there are people who get that data, even like presentation
#
in the ministry, like culture, right?
#
Lots of this focus and presentation is to show the number, right?
#
The people participated, you know, everything is numbered, so you just can't say large
#
number of people were there.
#
So I see that change happening for sure.
#
Do we have systems in place?
#
Had it been totally formalized?
#
Had it completely settled in the government mechanism system, especially at the lower
#
But I think eventually it will get there, or it should get there.
#
And if we can't get there with all these IT products and all the technology we have in
#
a country like us, I mean, not a good situation to be in.
#
But I'm hoping that this will happen.
#
In the long run, we are all dead.
#
I hope it happens before we are dead.
#
The third thing that my friend told me about you is that you had very good young people
#
working with you, right?
#
Tell me a little bit about this.
#
And are these young people within the system of government or are there civil society mechanisms
#
where citizens work together with arms of the government?
#
Tell me a bit about all of that.
#
So there was this wonderful initiative, which started in Maharashtra by the then chief minister,
#
He was the chief minister then, called Chief Minister's Fellowship, CM Fellow.
#
And it was run very well.
#
There was an OST of the chief minister who wished to run the entire fellowship.
#
So they would give the ad, invite, application, have two, three rounds of interaction with
#
them, select all these bright young people.
#
And then they would be placed in different departments, including districts.
#
So collectors would be asked if you need people.
#
And I have been getting them from the very first inception of that program, in Vardha,
#
Chanpur, Mumbai, everywhere.
#
So you will have these bright young people who have passed out of college, again idealist
#
want to figure out what government does, want to do something.
#
And they would come and work with you for a year.
#
Because they were young, full of ideas to make them run around.
#
They were not status quo-ish.
#
They would find reasons to do things.
#
Some of the things I could do, thanks to these young bright students, because jokingly I
#
And I'm in touch with all of them.
#
I meet them, I'm in touch with all of them.
#
I think that is how, I mean, Haryana started it later, I think they still have it.
#
You need to bring people from outside into government, the people who genuinely want
#
Everyone cannot get into government services, you only have so many seats.
#
But the people who are genuinely interested in this country, they want to do something,
#
And small changes they make, trust you me, right?
#
The kind of memories they carry back, they keep talking about it, they go talk to their
#
family, friends, small change in some system, some process, somewhere they did.
#
Which is a huge thing, right?
#
For those young people who have never been exposed to government, have never worked with
#
So that is, and I've always personally benefited from it, because you would have four extra
#
hands who are thinking out of box, willing to look at things differently, who are not
#
saying no to everything you say.
#
So it works really well and it worked very well.
#
For me, I've asked for, they'll give me two, I'll say give me four.
#
Because more hands for you to work.
#
I think it's a wonderful experience for both government and for these individuals also
#
I had someone from Mumbai who had never lived outside of Mumbai.
#
Imagine she coming and living in Chandpur.
#
From picking up a house to live, to deal with everything, she had not seen anything outside
#
Now the experience of being away from home, doing things on your own, doing small, small
#
things, making some reference to people's life, I think it's a fantastic initiative.
#
So one of my good friends and one of our finest thinkers, who's also been a guest on the show
#
a couple of times, Ashwin Mahesh, he does a lot of his, he does his work in Bangalore.
#
And he leads a lot of civil society initiatives there and an argument that he makes really
#
strongly is that people in civil society, instead of just criticizing government from
#
the outside, should work with government to make things better and should be involved
#
Now the counter view to that, of course, is that, hey, listen, you know, the state is
#
there to do a particular job and if you know, it's up to them to do it and we should hold
#
But his point is that no, you know, civil society and government can work together better
#
and we should kind of make that effort.
#
So what has your interaction in that sense been with civil society groups and is that
#
a typical sort of interaction which the government would have with civil society groups?
#
Was your approach to it in any way different from others?
#
How valuable do you think it is?
#
Again, there are two ways to look at it.
#
See, most of this is not institutionalized, right?
#
That government will say that the process, this is how you work, left to individual to
#
Many of us tend to look at them suspiciously for whatever reasons.
#
For me, I've always seen them as partner and it has really helped me.
#
Last two years I was in Mumbai, joint commissioner, I was looking after education.
#
I worked with many of the civil society, Pratham, Teach for India, Pehle Akshar.
#
Fantastic people, they're driven, they're committed.
#
They just complement our effort, supplement our effort.
#
And the people who have been doing this for 30 years, 40 years, why would you deprive
#
yourself of these enormous experience and benefits that they bring on table?
#
And the well-meaning people, they're not asking for money from you.
#
They're just saying that, okay, and what is their interest?
#
Their interest is scale.
#
If they were doing on their own, they would probably reach say 10,000 people.
#
The moment they partner with you, they're reaching now three like people.
#
So everyone wins, right?
#
If they want to do some work, they get the platform of government, you know the limitation
#
of capacity, you will have vacancy at times of teachers, they would try and fill those
#
I'm not saying that government shouldn't fill those pores and you can't keep relying
#
But again, in a country of this size, if you have good people working and supplementing
#
your effort, why would you deny yourself of that?
#
And why would you see them as anything but friend and partner?
#
They're not your adversary.
#
They are, you know, so I have had, even in field, I would know, try and work with good
#
civil society and because at times they also bring issues to your notice, which might not
#
come through formal official channel, right?
#
So my say official education thing, they might have a certain way of saying things.
#
They might not bring certain things to my notice.
#
Those guys, they don't have that obligation, right?
#
So their idea is to tell you everything which is there and then help you find solution to
#
So I think it serves its own purpose.
#
As long as, again, there's mutual respect, you know, that you are in for larger good
#
of common people, I don't see there's any issue.
#
There may be a few instances of it getting misused, people doing things for certain reason.
#
But my personal experience has only been fantastic.
#
I've been lucky to work, learn, I'll say.
#
Pratham, there is Farida Lambeji, there is Teach4India, there is Shaheen, there is Radha.
#
So I know, like all of these guys I've learned, I've never worked in the education space.
#
I didn't know how things worked.
#
But when you interact with them, you realize because some of these guys have 30 years of
#
How do I match that learning and that kind of skill?
#
So I think it helps you also grow personally, it helps the institution, it helps you grow
#
But are you an outlier in all of this?
#
I don't know, again, I don't think so.
#
Maybe like, you know, what is also happening is that people don't interact with many of
#
We sort of may be inaccessible, you don't get to meet so, you know, every time someone
#
meets someone who doesn't fit into a certain way of a civil servant bureaucrat, because
#
I get asked this question many times, honestly, right?
#
Because they would people would say this.
#
I think there are many people who do this.
#
It could be the reason that you don't get to see them, hear about them, they're not
#
around, they're not necessarily the most vocal people, they're doing their work quietly
#
in some part of the country.
#
But there are people, there are quite a few people, I would say.
#
One of the reasons you mentioned that you were happy to give up your job and keen to
#
get into the civil services is that any small difference you make can actually affect millions
#
You make a form slightly easier, it is actually having a massive impact, which you can't quantify,
#
but it's a massive impact, you know that it's there.
#
So can you tell me in your years in service, like, what are the things that come to your
#
mind first when you think about something that changed life, something that gives you
#
satisfaction that, yes, I was able to do that, you know, even if it is not something that
#
you can necessarily put on a poster or boast about, but small changes can make a very wide
#
difference to the lives of people.
#
So small things again, right, certificates that we give, all kinds of certificates.
#
So first, you would try and look at how to simplify, so you will simplify the process
#
in terms of the three documents, you only ask for those three documents.
#
Second, what I could do was I could also do end-to-end digitization, in the sense, what
#
happens many times in government is you say you're digital, they will ask you to put everything
#
online, but they'll still expect you to go to the office and whatever.
#
So I was very keen that once as a citizen, you uploaded your document in some citizen
#
service center in a remote village, your certificate should come back to that center.
#
So sure, in a village which is 120 kilometers away in a remote tribal pocket, you go to
#
your village civic service center, you submitted your documents, then there are multiple layers,
#
right, from there it will come to TSE, it will come to SDO, it may come to collector,
#
then the document has to make this return journey.
#
So that like, you shouldn't come to that multiple level, you shouldn't come to TSE, you shouldn't
#
come to SDO, you shouldn't come to collector, you should only ask that guy, and then someone
#
So I would monitor that regularly, I'd look at the login, first I made sure that there
#
was no offline business, because the moment you keep both online and offline, nothing
#
works, neither online nor offline.
#
So that times, people come with all kinds of excuses, but you put your foot down and
#
you say, no, this has to be done, and you insist.
#
And then because again, you have the benefit of data for you, right, all I have to do is
#
open and look at that Tesla, his login and say, you have 40 car certificate pending,
#
this I couldn't have done otherwise before, right.
#
So that guy has no choice, I mean, no, there's no way he can do the rent seeking, sit on
#
it because I'm seeing this.
#
So that was something I felt very happy about, I don't know if it's continuing or not continuing,
#
Because these small things, right, what are the citizens, I mean, especially in villages
#
and small places, right, the aspirations are not very high, right, they're looking for
#
these small services, land document, your car certificate, if you can't deliver them
#
at ease and convenience without them having to run around, then what's the point of all
#
So I think, yeah, that is something I feel good about.
#
Another thing that I feel good about emotionally is, you know, we did something called Mission
#
Shore, we sent travel kids for Everest expedition.
#
So that was the first time in Maharashtra, you know, so that was one of the time I felt
#
actually very emotional, I almost I teared up when those kids were being sent off.
#
And then this was only I'd seen this movie called Purnah, which is about a girl from
#
Telangana, 13 year old, she climbed Everest, Telangana government used to do this.
#
And I saw this with a friend of mine who is a police officer, Maharashtra carder Sohail.
#
And he was posted in Kolhapur then, additional SP, I go see the movie and I was like, we
#
can do it in Maharashtra also.
#
And then we reached out to people, I had an assistant collector who is now Sangli collector
#
Aljoa, he was from Telangana, he reached out to those folks.
#
So imagine these kids from tribal families who've never moved outside their village.
#
Abto Everest chhod do, Chandapur nahi aaye hain, utne remote area se the, bache hain
#
maare aur 46 degree, 47 degree ki dhoop, garmi, wahan se to go to right, minus whatever, 25
#
degree, 30 degree, it's unbelievable.
#
So we managed to send there lots of risk, right, because we're damn scared you sending
#
these kids for an Everest expedition, if something goes wrong, God forbid.
#
So those 10 kids we sent, of which five of them managed to climb Everest, that moment
#
when they're going and we're sending them off, that was something, those are some of
#
the moments I think you live for in the service.
#
I felt very emotional about that.
#
These kids suddenly became a star, right, once they came back, they were flagged off
#
by the CM, they went and met the Prime Minister and the President, all of that happened.
#
So suddenly they were the stars and the idea was to send a message that people from the
#
least privileged background could do anything they wanted in life if they were given a chance
#
And that was the large message that we were trying to send.
#
And that's something I felt happy about.
#
Telling story, let's for a moment move into the domain of the personal.
#
So you mentioned that when you were posted in Vardha, you and a colleague of yours, every
#
morning you would cycle eight kilometers to Sevagram and you would sit below the tree
#
there and it gave you a lot of peace.
#
And I was impressed by this and also jealous by this because I wish I did something like
#
this more often, you know, find a little terror in my life, find a little peace in my life.
#
And I'm imagining that for someone in the civil services, like both you and your friend
#
in this particular instance, it would be that much tougher to do because when you join a
#
service like this, where you are so busy, where you're in charge of so many important
#
things, where so many people are supplicating before you, that it can affect your self-image,
#
it can get to your head, it can make you arrogant, it can make you whatever, and you can also
#
lose touch with yourself.
#
So tell me about, have you seen that happening to your colleagues around you?
#
Have you seen that happening to you?
#
Is it something that you have said, I must watch out for?
#
Do you make an intentional effort to sort of take time out, time out and be with yourself?
#
Yeah, so I think that happens to many of us.
#
Once we get into the service, you know, we get used to power and position and start looking
#
at us very differently.
#
I think the problem probably is, it also happens because the service becomes everything.
#
It becomes core of who you are and then you forget that there's more to your life than
#
For me, I've been fortunate, again, one, because of my upbringing, I would say largely.
#
My parents, my brother, they have kept me very, very, very grounded.
#
My parents are extremely simple people.
#
They don't fall for any of this at all.
#
So I think a large part of this, I've stayed grounded is because of where I come from,
#
And second, again, my college and all of that, I have never had, I've always moved around
#
in circles where people have been more rooted and have gone for stuff which is solid and
#
So I have never consciously felt the need to do this where I have to check whether I'm
#
becoming arrogant or whether, no.
#
I keep telling myself, I hope I'm not too soft and in a state where you have to look
#
sometime, you're difficult and you're stern.
#
So I don't think I felt that way, but this thing of finding space and time for yourself,
#
And no, I also realize that what I do is extremely important and an important part of who I am
#
and what I do, but there's so much to life than just my job.
#
And that I seek out, right?
#
So meeting new people, making new friends, try it, follow some other pursuit.
#
And part of which would be doing things like going to Sivagaram every morning, just sit,
#
do nothing, contemplate.
#
And do you sometimes, A, do you think of the counterfactual that if this hadn't happened,
#
what else you could have been doing besides being a litigating lawyer, for example?
#
If you hadn't passed the UPSC either time, for example, let's say it just doesn't happen
#
and there is a lot of luck involved because so many people give it.
#
What else would you have done?
#
And as a twin question to that, that as you kind of look ahead, do you think of other
#
things that you could be doing?
#
Maybe writing, because I've enjoyed whatever writing I've read of yours, your four Outlook
#
There are other problems in the world that can be solved that don't require you to be
#
a part of government, for example.
#
So do you sometimes feel that, yes, you can make a big difference within government, but
#
I'm sure it is also frustrating sometimes and it can also seem slow and boring and difficult.
#
So how have you sort of dealt with these conflicting?
#
As much I love government and what I do, I'd be lying if I say those questions do not
#
And especially, I think, of late, there have been times when I have not thought about this.
#
Is there other stuff that I can explore, look at, will it interest me?
#
But I don't know what, right?
#
So unless you figure out what is it, there is no point even.
#
So if I can figure that what, probably no one can start thinking about it more seriously.
#
And then there are other things to do.
#
For example, writing, you said, I honestly never thought I could write for an audience.
#
I thought I'll write all these essays and whatever.
#
I was okay with it, you know, done reasonably well.
#
But I never thought I could.
#
I never had the confidence, honestly, if you ask me, that I would write stuff that people
#
would be interested in reading.
#
But yeah, now like, you know, I've got decent feedback on what I've written.
#
So hopefully, write more and then probably think of that also as an option.
#
If at all, you know, the need arises or someone feels that one needs to do something else
#
As of now, I am quite happy, I want to explore more because I think there's still two decades
#
And then it's a huge country, it gives you lots of opportunity.
#
And IS, I think, as a service, gives you enormous opportunity.
#
Honestly, I can't think of any other job, you know, in the world that would give you
#
this kind of exposure that it gives you at a young age.
#
So it's not going to be easy if at all one has to make that decision ever in life.
#
Let's talk about your book now and in fact, let's talk about Vidarbha because, you know,
#
the two are almost sort of the same thing.
#
And one question that you've kind of looked at early in your book is that, why does that
#
area have so many people who are willing to be the change that they want to see in the
#
So tell me a little bit about that, that when did you start noticing these remarkable people
#
that you write about, like Bandhu Dhotre and so on, who are essentially, you know, agitating
#
against the state and yet you notice them, I'm guessing you become friends with them,
#
you want to write about them, you admire them.
#
How did all of that happen?
#
And why Vidarbha, what is so sort of special about it that so many, you know, civic-minded
#
people could be out there who selflessly want to, you know, put themselves out there and,
#
you know, be the change as it were?
#
That's why Vidarbha, again, there's no empirical data to say why Vidarbha, right?
#
And I quote in one of my articles, my friend, dear friend, Vinay Sitapati, because, you
#
know, I would ask him this question, two of us would talk, he was researching for his
#
book, he would visit me.
#
And one of the plausible explanations we could come up with was, because Mahatma Gandhi lived
#
in Vardha for 12 years, right, 36 to 48 in Sehwagaram Ashram, and Vinoba lived again
#
38 onwards in Pawanar, close to.
#
So there was an ecosystem, you know, surrounding these two great men in Vidarbha.
#
There are lots of people who got influenced, including Baba Amte, you know, so if you look
#
at people who have been covered in our book, you know, a large number of them, in some
#
way, their family, grandparents or parents have been, you know, influenced, affected,
#
lived closer to Gandhi and the ashram.
#
So one reason could be because of Gandhi and Vinoba's influence, because they lived there.
#
You had, you know, it's quite natural, you know, in the periphery and the area around,
#
you would have people who take up, you know, look up to them, go there, work with them.
#
So one could be this, you know, it's a product of, you know, who were there at that point
#
And my interaction, as I mentioned before, whenever I get posted, wherever I go, I'm
#
always curious to learn, know more about people.
#
So every time you would hear, there's someone who's doing something very different from
#
We've only covered, say, seven stories, you know, 13 people, but there's so many more
#
people who were there who we couldn't cover for whatever reasons.
#
And these people have been working and then I would know them because, you know, you'd
#
be a probationer in a district and then you would hear about them.
#
But then you'd go out and reach out to them, try and understand what they're doing, why
#
There's this gentleman called Baba Paparkar, who we've not written about.
#
Trust you me, he works in Amaravati and I've been there two, three times.
#
There are kids who stay in his place, they are all kids who have physical infirmities,
#
They've been abandoned at railway stations, dustbin, temples, he picks them up.
#
All of them, 150 kids have, they've taken his name, Adharkar, his old, father's name
#
is this gentleman who is now 78, 79 year old.
#
Every time I've gone to that place, I've cried, I've literally wept.
#
And I wept because you can't believe that there's so much, there can be so much suffering
#
When you see those kids, you realize that how can there be so much suffering in this
#
And there's this one man who's made his mission to give those kids a life of dignity.
#
He gets them married, tries, gets them a job.
#
And that's something I can never ever do in my life.
#
And there are many such people who do that.
#
So I think it also comes from my general curious nature of trying to meet people who do things
#
which are very different from what I do as a civil servant or I would have done as a
#
professional or whatever.
#
Because it's not an easy job, like, you know, bring up one child, a special child at home.
#
It takes lots of work for the parent.
#
But to bring such 150 child single-handedly, you know, in a village, in a district in Maharashtra,
#
a tremendous amount of work.
#
And there are many such stories, you know, there are many such people who work.
#
So yeah, so I don't know.
#
So I find these people inspiring, their story inspiring, they are the one who that they
#
And then I find my fuel from people like them, they're not as you said, they're not necessarily
#
be with us on the same page.
#
But then again, there's mutual respect, right?
#
No, I have a job to do, they feel they have a job to do.
#
And as long as it is, you know, within the four corners of the law, I mean, I'm happy
#
to have that interaction with them and happy to know more about them and learn something
#
everything they say is not incorrect, right?
#
And everything I say is not necessarily correct.
#
So yeah, but but then again, I'll say I'm being selfish.
#
I mean, it just enriches me as a person.
#
So more than anything, I think I'm driven by no own selfish motive of becoming a better
#
person of knowing something more than I would have known otherwise, if I would have just
#
confined myself to those files and my office and my residence.
#
So again, purely maybe driven by selfish motives to improve yourself.
#
It strikes me that in a sense, what you are doing is the very opposite of what they are
#
doing in the sense you're both doing good, but with opposite approaches in the sense
#
that you are trying to make small changes in a very big system that affects a lot of
#
people while what they are doing is with great intensity and passion, they are doing big
#
things on a really small stage.
#
So an entrepreneur could look at something someone like the gentleman you just named
#
and say that yes, scale like he's doing good, but scale, and yet these are the people who,
#
you know, can, as you mentioned, they can make you tear up with the work they do.
#
They may change 150 lives, but they change them so incredibly profoundly and you will
#
never touch one life like that.
#
It's just an observation and this is true of all the 13 people across the seven stories
#
in your book that they are all doing things at a small scale that someone has gone to
#
a village, made a hospital there, built a small school there, built another school on
#
demand there, you know, someone, a woman who might have a flourishing career in a city
#
as a doctor and she's wearing fancy saris and moving around, chooses to marry a social
#
worker in a village because she wants to go there and actually help the people, but how
#
Not so many people, you know, and at some level there is also the human tendency that
#
once you become part of the fabric of their lives, even those people will take you for
#
granted, right, but people do this and where does this come from?
#
And I'm sure this is a question you've asked yourself very, very often, where does this
#
And there's another nuance that you pointed out, which I want to ask you about because
#
it struck me where you spoke about the difference between social work and being the change where
#
you wrote in your book.
#
We are not talking of social work.
#
We are talking about being the change we want to see in the world of making one's life,
#
one's message, the teachings of Mahatma Gandhi that are increasingly becoming relics in the
#
maddening machinery of modern life, stop quote.
#
And this also struck me because at a surface level, I would look at someone like that and
#
say social worker, maybe great social worker, but social worker.
#
But you're saying that there's a qualitative difference between social work and what they
#
So can you expand on that for me?
#
Yeah, so the difference being, right, you may be doing social work, right, many people
#
do in multiple space, a social sector, how do you do that, right?
#
Your social work is an end.
#
But what are the means that you're adopting?
#
So I think what is spectacular about these individuals are, right, they're also stuck
#
to the means that, okay, if I have to do education, will I adopt any means to do deliver the education
#
Or will I adopt the correct means?
#
Will I live by what I preach or will I only preach and not live by those values?
#
And that is different, right?
#
Because you can be doing those works, but like no one is asking you, you'll anyway
#
be fitted and you'd be said, great work, you'd be recognized.
#
Because I think this sticking to the means part, which is difficult for all of us, even
#
in government, personal life, wherever, I think it is that part, which is incredible.
#
Because you said, I'm not going to leave my means, they are as important to me as my end
#
And that's why probably some of these guys at great personal cost don't deviate from
#
So there might be a false case against you, but you'd still stay the ground and say, no,
#
I have taken the part of truth, I'm not going to deviate.
#
So I'm not going to go and compromise with you and not speak against something just because
#
you filed a case against me.
#
That needs lots of courage.
#
What's interesting, I was reading your excellent narrative of Bandhu Dhotre.
#
What I kind of liked about it is before he does the extraordinary things he does, you
#
talk about the ordinary things he does, like he's trying to get into the army.
#
Before that he has to get into the NCC, he's unable to do so.
#
The very first trial, he can't march past properly because his shirt is loose and one
#
hand is trying to tuck it in.
#
And we hear, and it's almost a comedy of errors, his attempts to get into the NCC so that he
#
can get into the marketing in the army.
#
And then later on you talk about his career in network marketing and all these things
#
And then eventually he kind of stumbles upon his work with ecology because somewhere a
#
snake is loose and the slum where it is loose, they can't afford to catch the forest guard
#
because I think they have to pay a hundred bucks.
#
So he decides to learn it and help them out for free and everything revels from there.
#
Unravels, it's the opposite of unravels, isn't it?
#
I don't know if there's a word called unravels.
#
So my thought there is, and I wonder what you think about it, is that at one level when
#
you look at a person at a particular point in time where the outcome of their life in
#
a sense has already happened, you're looking with hindsight, it might seem, oh, man of
#
tremendous passion and conviction, yeh to hona hi tha and extraordinary.
#
But on the other hand, it's a train of accidents that has led them to this place ki shirt loose
#
tha, march pass nahi hua, NCC mein nahi ghusa, army mein nahi ghusa.
#
Similarly, there was a snake to be caught.
#
So you know, that spurs him to do what he's doing.
#
So on the one hand, you have a person doing something extraordinary, but who could have
#
done something ordinary.
#
And at the same time, you know, even when you look at someone like yourself, maybe,
#
you know, you could have been doing something different from what you are doing.
#
And so once you get on the path, it feels like he get single minded, great career done
#
all of this, you know, helped 150 kids, all of that incredible.
#
But initially, perhaps that spur wasn't there.
#
And these are not just outliers, but kind of accidental outliers.
#
And I don't mean to demean all the great work that they do, because what they do is what
#
You know, you and I are not doing that.
#
And, and with each of these people in each of these stories, there is that element of
#
contingency that is there, that happy accidents are taking them in certain directions, maybe
#
not with the kids of you know, Mr. Amte, because of course, they are born to that family.
#
And it's sort of more natural that they should continue that kind of social work.
#
But with a lot of the others, first generation social workers, as it were.
#
So how important a role does contingency play in it?
#
How important a role could incentives play in it?
#
If you got that kind of respect from your society, if you did things like this.
#
So I know slightly differ from you in the sense not everyone is there because of some
#
So if you look at colleagues, or if you look at Satav, look at Google, they're very clear,
#
No, he Dr. Ravinder Kohli, he read the book 40 miles, no doctors.
#
So he was very clear from his medical day, that's where he wanted to be.
#
He could have read some other book.
#
Well, I'm saying he had made up his mind to anyway, that that book only helped him decide
#
that he has to go to the most remotest part.
#
But the fact that he had to go serve in a travel pocket was anyway decided, the book
#
only helped him choose a location.
#
Similarly for Satav, he knew and then you have Bandu and you have Matin.
#
So I think it's a mix of both that some people who are decided, there are some people who
#
figure out they are there by accident.
#
But once they are there, they are on that path.
#
So it could work either way for any of us.
#
I don't know if I could have been a Bandu ever in my life, but who knows?
#
You set out to do something, it doesn't work, you are pushed into doing something and that's
#
where you find your destiny calling and you go ahead and do it.
#
So I would say, no, it's a mix of both.
#
It would not be fair to say that most of the people are into that space because they couldn't
#
That was not my, obviously my intention at all.
#
So maybe like whatever, if they couldn't do anything else, they are there because whatever,
#
chain of circumstances pushed them there.
#
So I think a large number of people just wanted to do that.
#
For example, Deva Ji Tofa and we have Mohanbhai.
#
He wanted to be with travels all his life and then he consciously did what he did.
#
So I find it other way around, except for one or two, in a story, I think most of the
#
people, they wanted to do what they are doing.
#
Fair point and you know, I was struck by Ravindra Kohli's story because he decided to go to
#
this little far off village called Baragar and practice medicine there, even though there
#
He was practicing from under a tree, as you point out.
#
And he went with a friend who eventually left the path because life is too tough.
#
And then Dr. Kohli goes off to get his post-graduation, but is determined to go back, but he would
#
He reaches out to his friends and he gives three conditions, four qualities rather that
#
And I love this, so I'll read this out.
#
One, she should be willing to walk 40 kilometers, be ready to manage the house in rupees 400,
#
which is the number of patients he would see for rupees one per patient in a month, agree
#
to a court marriage shorn of pomp or an expenditure of rupees five, and be ready to beg for others
#
if need be, stop quote.
#
Because part of what he did was that if the villagers didn't have enough money for medicines,
#
he would actually beg for it, you know, following the example said by Gadge Maharaj, I hope
#
I pronounced that right.
#
The remarkable sort of thing here is that his eventual wife, Smita, had started a successful
#
homeopathy clinic and she was quite the driven person, wearing sari, wearing fancy saris
#
and you know, a driven person around town.
#
And she just happened to hear of him and then decided to meet him.
#
And had she not happened to hear of him, she would have lived a very different life.
#
And of course, once she got into the life, incredible commitment.
#
But there is also happenstance, but I mean, this is almost a mundane observation that
#
I mean, of course, circumstances affect everybody.
#
So what is there in that?
#
So around what point in time did you begin to feel that these extraordinary people that
#
you were meeting, that they need to be documented and recognized in some way?
#
Like what was the spur for the book, per se?
#
The spur for the book was I went to Harvard for a year on my study leave.
#
I was at law school and I was homesick, I was missing home.
#
And I had moved away from Chandipur.
#
And I've spent all my posting in Chandipur, everything I've done in that district.
#
That place had become home, I still relate to that place a lot.
#
I know most people there than I know anywhere in the country.
#
So I was there, I think it was January, mid-January, to be precise, 24th or 23rd January 2019.
#
And I was just lying in my room, I was thinking of my days in Chandipur, people, friends,
#
people I have left behind.
#
And that's when I was thinking of people like Bandu and Paparkar, who we've not written
#
But this idea was there in my head, I found this story is incredible.
#
And I would look for inspiration in common people like them who are doing these works.
#
I always had in my mind that if I'm getting inspired, I'm sure there are so many more
#
people who could get inspired if they got to read about them, hear about them.
#
Because there's something exceptional about these individuals.
#
But it started taking shape only when I was a little free, had more time, was missing
#
And that's when I reached out to Barkhaji, who had interviewed me for that every story.
#
On phone we couldn't meet because I was leaving for the US, he was doing that story then.
#
So that was my only connection with her, a phone reporting that she had done for those
#
And I mailed her and I said, I want to do this, can you partner with me?
#
And can we do it together?
#
She has always lived and worked in Nagpur, so she knew all of them, had written about
#
But she thought I was just like, no, guy missing home types, not serious type.
#
Then I wrote again with more details, like I've done some research, now we can start.
#
Then she thought I was serious and she felt, although she was slightly skeptical, I guess,
#
working with a bureaucrat on a book, but she came on board and that's how I came back from
#
I met almost all of them, except for one or two I couldn't meet.
#
So but come I met and we did the stories together.
#
That's how it shaped up.
#
How does that kind of a collaboration work?
#
Because you know that you'd have to disagree on an approach to the book, on a language
#
to the book, on a voice for the book.
#
How did all of that happen?
#
But I think what helped was two, three things.
#
First, we had enormous respect, all of that, she's much senior to me in age, everything.
#
So that was one part, right?
#
So you're not working with someone who's of your age.
#
So in that sense, and then she was extremely generous kind.
#
But I think what, two of us, what did we have in mind?
#
We're not here for fame through this book.
#
She had done her journalistic career.
#
We just wanted these stories to go out.
#
And then for that, and we had multiple discussions, every line, also because I'm a civil servant,
#
I have to be very careful, everything, which goes out in print.
#
So every line, every voice, every comma, multiple times we'll go ask questions.
#
Everything we wrote, we checked for it, if it's actually correct, not correct.
#
Barkha ji jokingly said, you know, we file a story, we'll see when the next story comes.
#
In terms of, you know, so much rigorous due diligence.
#
But that was something I was very, very, extremely particular about.
#
Every single word had to be correct, there has to be some source.
#
Just because I feel based on my perception, I don't think we can put things about community
#
But it was because there was lots of mutual respect, we never had.
#
And I would say to her credit, she was extremely kind and generous.
#
She put up with lots of my arguments and my point of view.
#
But that's how we worked back, forth, back, forth, multiple urgent, multiple times, you
#
know, multiple checking, cross checking.
#
And just a process of learning the craft of writing, like, obviously, you've not just
#
co-written the book, you've also written your Outlook essays and so on and so forth.
#
So in terms of the craft of writing, how did that evolve when you started thinking about
#
Did you become a better reader in terms of reading what others were writing and noticing
#
the craft and noticing what they were doing with it?
#
Did you have any models, like, so and so writes exactly, tells a story exactly the way I would
#
How did that process evolve?
#
Yeah, so one of the person who's writing I really liked and admired is editor Outlook
#
So what do I like about what she writes is when you read a story or even her story or
#
I'll give you other example, but to just finish her a bit, she brings lots of emotion, right?
#
When you read that piece, I can relate, I can see a story happening somewhere, you know,
#
and I feel strongly about the characters which are there in the story.
#
So I think that style really is something that I found very interesting.
#
That's something she does brilliantly.
#
Even Rohintan Mistry, right, I've read all his book.
#
So when I read, I don't read fiction mostly, but no, I've read him.
#
So for me, the hallmark of a good story or anything you've written is, can you see that
#
happening in front of your eyes?
#
So every time I read Mistry, right, I can see someone walking down the stairs, picking
#
up a glass of whatever water.
#
So that is the larger thing I have in my mind.
#
No, I've never been trained.
#
I don't think consciously I try and write in a particular way or one thing.
#
But something probably, when I write is to write it very, very simply, extremely simple
#
I use absolutely no complicated words, short sentences, simple words.
#
And I write about personal experience because that's something I have experienced.
#
I can't go wrong with that unless I'm lying.
#
And I try and be honest about those experiences.
#
And people relate to it, I guess, because many of us have been through those experiences
#
in one way or other, if not all.
#
So that is largely what I've been trying to do.
#
I almost subscribed for your course, which I thought I would do later.
#
You don't need it, perhaps.
#
But yeah, that's how I do.
#
But no, I'm not a trained writer.
#
I don't know if I can write.
#
Lots of people are encouraging, pushing.
#
Let's see how it happens.
#
But I can only write stuff, honestly.
#
If I can't write, then I won't write.
#
No, I loved your essays for Outlook and what I also found interesting about them is the
#
way that it is not just a text.
#
The storytelling is, of course, beautiful, but you're also using photographs, like in
#
your story about Dinesh, you have this photograph of your mother and Dinesh sitting in the courtyard.
#
In your story about frogs, you have a photograph of this, which also, to me, it holds a lot
#
of possibility because the personal essay need not only be words, I think, that you
#
can do other things with it.
#
Just like W.G. Sebald used photographs and stuff in his novels, but even in this form,
#
it can be just so evocative.
#
And there's, you know, another passage from one of your essays you write, which kind of
#
So we'll take a digression and I'll read that out where you wrote, My mother is a keeper
#
of our childhood memories.
#
She kept a few items from our growing up years in a small aluminium trunk.
#
Once in a while, both my mom and I opened the trunk of time.
#
The smell of memories brings tears to our eyes.
#
The tiny universe even holds a milk feeders I used as an infant, the cold box mom used
#
to apply dots on our forehead to ward off evil, stop quote.
#
And have you always had vivid memories of the past or do you feel that in the act of
#
writing, you are able to remember better and, you know, understand better?
#
Thank you for asking this, you know, because I keep telling everyone that I have very bad
#
I don't remember anything like, you know, your friends, school, college, they discuss
#
things and I draw a blank because I don't remember most of the stuff.
#
So I thought for some time that maybe I have no suffering from dementia, memory loss, no,
#
because I won't remember lots of stuff.
#
But then when I started writing, you know, these things would come and this is what is
#
extremely surprising, you know, this is what I've discovered, that things that there's absolutely
#
no way I would have remembered those, you know, those frog, that trunk, you know, all
#
of that feeder bottle, you know, everything, you know, comes back, which is extremely surprising.
#
We don't happen in normal courses.
#
In normal course, if I'm having an interaction, you ask me, my college incidents, I don't
#
But I think the process of writing has really helped me connect with my past, those memories
#
that I thought I had forgotten.
#
But I don't think you ever forget they're there.
#
You just need to probably dig them deep and they come out.
#
So that's what happening.
#
I'm discovering it in the process of writing.
#
I thought I'd forgotten everything.
#
So do you have a writing habit, like do you write every day?
#
There's no writing habit, no, if someone pushes and say like, no, can you write a piece?
#
Probably I would write otherwise, no, or also because I'm still, you know, I still keep
#
doubting myself, honestly, if I can write well, should I write, you know, so there's
#
also some self-doubt in terms of if this is something I should continue or not continue.
#
So probably that could be the reason why I've not taken it very seriously.
#
I've been doing it incrementally once in a while you write something.
#
But I'm hoping that I get over that inhibition and that fear maybe in days, months to come
#
and write more regularly, especially write about my experiences, right?
#
Maybe another book this time about your own experiences.
#
I'm so frustrated by good people having the imposter syndrome.
#
I'm obviously going to link all your stuff in my show notes, but I would request all
#
my listeners to read the essay about your friend Dinesh and then if they think and then
#
to tell you about the writing on Twitter, because I just find this lovely writing and
#
I'm really happy to know that you want to do more personal essays because I found that
#
personal writing was what really touched me and what really moved me.
#
So I'd absolutely love to see more of that.
#
Getting back to the book, I'm not going to ask you to talk about each of these people.
#
I'd rather that listeners just buy the whole book.
#
It's a quick read because it's so well written and all of these stories are really inspiring
#
and you could actually make movies on all of them if they haven't been made already.
#
But pick a couple of them who mean the most to you and tell me a little bit about them,
#
not just about them in a biographical sense, but how they make you feel, why you admire
#
So I think I'll start with Bandu because I know him probably, I've seen him the most,
#
So Bandu for a long time, I was also skeptical of who he was and what he did, right?
#
And lots of time you also get fed lots of information by people around you.
#
He was obviously not a very popular guy because he would have issues with everyone for his
#
department, all other departments.
#
So I had some opinion of him which I'd made up in my mind.
#
But this didn't reflect in my work or in my job as collector of the place.
#
But then you'd start noticing, you'd pay more attention to what he does, the issue
#
he brings to the table.
#
None of that would be personal ever.
#
And then you realize that a large part of it could also be because people generally
#
could be a function of jealousy and all of that.
#
And that's when I started getting to know him better because as collector you'd often
#
He would bring up all these civic issues, environmental issues, and all of this would
#
And then one would try and know more about him.
#
He did this campaign for the fort cleaning, which still continues.
#
And you would ask this question to yourself, why does he need to do that?
#
That fort has been there for the last 300 years.
#
Everyone in the city forgot about it.
#
We all forgot about that fort, it was lost to encroachment, everything.
#
So what does this man get out of this?
#
He's not even actively seeking publicity or anything, he's not going to fight in an election.
#
And that's when you start asking that question, start trying to know more, get to spend time,
#
see the work, ask more people around him what he does, not does.
#
So that was the official, then I knew him only officially, there was no personal in
#
the sense I didn't know his family, where he came from, all of that details.
#
That happened much later, but it's only in the course of writing the book, I got to know
#
But even the professional side of him, what I liked was the fact that he was just so driven.
#
He was so cleared in his head, he would come, but always be polite and try and find solution
#
He was not someone who was trying to prove a point to you.
#
So all of that I found quite endearing, he was a person who was well-meaning, trying
#
to do things, wasn't in it for his personal fame, name, whatever.
#
And then you'd also go probably try and help him, because you know that person comes from
#
a place of integrity and honesty.
#
So that is when I got to know him and then when I got to know his story, I was totally
#
blown because if you come from a background as he does, it's so easy to compromise.
#
All of this you can compromise with multiple interest holder and still put up the facade
#
of being whatever you are and be at least financially and economically happy because
#
that is your immediate need.
#
Your family is suffering, your kids are suffering, but he doesn't compromise on any of that.
#
So that kind of value system, at the cost of extreme personal difficulties, you stand
#
When you could have whatever, I think this is what probably I find interesting about
#
Bandhu and the work he does, the passion about wildlife, the environment, how he would go
#
to rescue every animal at the cost.
#
Because not all of us are sensitive about wildlife, because we are sensitive about what
#
affects us immediately, our family, our land, this thing.
#
To be so sensitive about your environment, people, animals, and to fight for them.
#
Because when you fight for them, a man-eater tiger, the entire village is against you.
#
So then to have the courage and to say that, okay, let's not kill the animal.
#
Because people are agitated, they've lost 10 people in that village to the tiger.
#
It's not an easy choice.
#
All of us would not face the fury of the mob and other like, be with them and say, okay,
#
let's get rid of the tiger.
#
So that kind of courage, where do you get that kind of courage from?
#
He doesn't have lots of money.
#
He's not an influential guy.
#
That's the personal thing, right?
#
Your personal trait, your personal attribute, how do you build that kind of attributes?
#
That's something I just find interesting about him.
#
So that's what the Bandhu story.
#
Before we move on to the next guy, like a thought just strikes me that when I was reading
#
about Bandhu, you know, the thought that struck me was that there can be a conflict of values
#
here that doesn't have an easy resolution.
#
So that the state, for example, or people like us can say that, look, development is
#
There are trade-offs to be made, but human welfare is what is the most important thing.
#
Like in the case of a village, if there's a man-eating tiger, 10 people have died.
#
We cannot allow one more to go.
#
That's more important than the tiger.
#
That's one set of values.
#
And someone like a Bandhu could come with another set of values and say that, no, humans
#
are not the only thing here, that ecosystem matters, ecological balance matters.
#
All of this stuff matters, right?
#
And both points of view are coming from certain first principles.
#
And you can't really negotiate with them because, you know, they are both completely coherent
#
and cogent in their own way.
#
But the job of what a society does and what politics is sometimes a tool to sort out is
#
that you find some way to negotiate these different values.
#
And someone like Bandhu can then almost seem an artifact in that situation where he is
#
firm to his values and more credit to him for that because you need people like that.
#
But that firmness can sometimes, you know, seem like it's going too far.
#
Like even how you've described his wife and his kids are living in this shawl and there's
#
no money and they are starving and they want him to take up a job, but he won't take up
#
a job because he is committed to this.
#
You mentioned he was a part-time LIC agent, but he said that if I'm trying to convince
#
people of help people or convince people, I'm not going to sell them insurance policies
#
So you know, it's a very interesting situation where you have admiration for someone's property
#
and integrity and all of that.
#
But at the same time, you're thinking ki bhai thora practical ho jao.
#
So and given that you are part of the state and that you must have been in this situation
#
where you want to tell him ki bhai Bandhu, sit, let's talk, you know, what are your thoughts?
#
But I think that's what then makes who Bandhu is, practical ho jayega toh aap ho jayega,
#
Toh iske liye Bandhu ko toh Bandhu rahena hai.
#
And we need the Bandhu's.
#
And we need also Bandhu's in this world.
#
So yeah, and also I think what he does is, I'll not say that he'll not be practical when
#
he also negotiates with villagers.
#
He doesn't want villagers to turn against the animal, right?
#
That is the challenge because he thinks once that happens, then the battle is lost.
#
So it's not easy for him also.
#
So while he takes the stand, he'll still find a way to work.
#
Maybe he'll go after a few days when tempers have come down.
#
No, he'll try forest department, work with forest department, get some fencing there
#
so animals do not cross the field or come home, get lighting done.
#
So he'll also do these measures, right?
#
So maybe immediately he has to take that stand for whatever he believes in, but he would
#
not see of those people as enemy because he also sees some point in what they're saying,
#
10 people dying, people's lives are important too.
#
You can't let that happen.
#
So how will he work on this?
#
Then he'll work with the department when the tempers have come down, try and make them
#
see reason because the last thing he wants to happen is he becomes very strident and
#
he becomes very tough and people, the entire village is turned against him and the animal.
#
Then where is the conservation, right?
#
You can't conserve if your local community is not interested, involved because they are
#
the one who have been conserving, right?
#
Not people like us, we've been writing, talking about us, the tribals and the people who live
#
The animals have survived because they have co-habited, lived with them and worked to
#
So that also happens, but I think he probably does it shuttily, he doesn't.
#
So the second coalesce, I had not met them before.
#
I had read about them, heard about them when I was a provisionary in Amaravati, but I had
#
not met them in person.
#
They have been written about and book in Bharati.
#
They've also been given publicity, so they're slightly more well known than many of the
#
people who we have written about in the book.
#
So my first reaction when I met Smita Kohleji, like I had not met a woman as fiery as her
#
She was so honest, she was so honest, she was like force of nature, right?
#
She was having conversation, she was, you know, there's nothing which was taboo about
#
what she was saying, right?
#
She also documents, talks about her own sexual harassment and I was, we were like, no, shall
#
Should this go or not go?
#
So she was the woman, right, who I had never seen or met in my life, the kind of woman,
#
who comes, lives in that place, has very strong belief in few things, lives by those beliefs,
#
has left behind everything, does all of that.
#
So I was completely mesmerized by her personality, the force of her personality.
#
Because she was the first, I mean, we met her first in the car, then we traveled with
#
her to meet her husband, you know, for two hours.
#
And then the way she was telling us the story, I was curious, so she would make me shut up
#
and like, no, you please listen, don't like talk too much, I'm the one telling the story.
#
So she was like, I'm interested by her.
#
Then I meet, then we meet her husband, right, Dr. Ravindra Kohle.
#
Great contrast, a small, quiet man, who was very, very like one of those really lovable
#
uncles who you go to and would smile and who would only say nice things and so very different
#
But when you talk to him, you realize, no, there's so much gravitas, there's so much,
#
no, he's seen and he's done and the humility of it, no, I don't know if you remember the
#
line that they say towards the end, right, they say we came here, no one asked us to
#
come and no, we're not doing any service, social service, this is what you think.
#
We are here because this is the life we wanted to live and we're here for our own selfish
#
So imagine to have that kind of humility, right, to have given your life, they could
#
He did his MBBS 1770s from medical college, right, like his friend, he could have been
#
in Australia or UK, US making money, but he chooses to come there, no, make a life there
#
and obviously not looking for fame, anything, the fame, little name comes only much later
#
to him, 30 years, 40 years you do this.
#
So how do you do something like this, no, and also the humility, right, many of us become
#
so arrogant with little success we get in life, no, we start defining everything through
#
those, no, matrix of small successes that we've achieved, and what makes these people
#
so grounded humble, no, what could be more successful than this, I don't know.
#
So that was something that left a deep, especially the parting lines that he says towards the
#
end to us, I like here is a life spent, no, working for others, no, a life which could
#
have been lived anywhere with all the comfort need, no, still they live in a simple functional
#
house, imagine the house they've kept that roof, that roof still there, when they used
#
to live there, walking 40 miles, I can't imagine honestly, right, I actually cannot
#
imagine someone, no, with good education exposure, his parents were, no, they're not very rich,
#
but they were well, in a sense, middle class, father was a railway employee, mother also
#
used to teach, so came from relatively decent economic background, family, then, no, to
#
do all of this, I was, no, I have not met many people like them, and I hope there are
#
many people like them around, so yeah, that is one story, and then obviously Smita, no,
#
how she changes completely, because her life was, Dr. Kohle was anyway given to this, from
#
a very early childhood, because of mother's influences, no, uncle's influence, where
#
he comes to, but Smita Kohle, no, she was not like this, no, she was not given to this
#
life, it's only later when she achieved success, she starts looking for, no, what she's doing
#
with her life, and no, that question, search for meaning in life happens to her, no, because
#
she asked that question, no, after she starts making that money, what is this money for,
#
she starts reading, reading Gita, all of that happens to her, but what a transformation,
#
right, from a Nagpur city woman, no, to go to a village where that khadi thing, and do
#
everything yourself, be in a place, no access, no electricity, nothing, so I don't know how
#
many people can, how many of us can do that, maybe like, we want to do that, but I don't
#
think the kind of commitment, the kind of effort, the kind of courage it needs, many
#
of us do not have that kind of courage, sacrifice to make, so I think that, and then the story
#
of Matin Bhosle, so Matin, I couldn't personally go and meet because at that time there were
#
lots of issues with the administration which was happening, so I had to, no, I couldn't
#
go because his office was being, school was being demolished, so I had to avoid going
#
and meeting him in person, so I did lots of sessions with Barkha ma'am for this story,
#
he had went and covered, but the story is so powerful, where does he come from, look
#
at the community he comes from, no, I don't think there can be any communities more marginalized
#
in this, the entire community, you look at them from the eye of suspicion, and you brand
#
them as, one brands them as criminals, so coming from that community, right, it's so
#
easy to continue doing what you know, to get a job, and forget about all of that, no, you
#
have short got a job for yourself, how many of us go back and think where we come from,
#
and what do we do about them, just for the, just to tell the listeners, you're talking
#
about the Fancya Pardis, who have a reputation of being thieves and all of that, and there's
#
an early anecdote in the story about how Matin is in school for the first time, and the teacher
#
tells all the children, there is a Pardis among us, watch out for your valuables, yeah,
#
so no, so coming from where he comes, and then, no, he gets a job, and then he's not
#
happy and he says that, no, this is not what I intend to do, I want to do something for
#
my community, for my kids, so how many of us would give that life of relative privilege,
#
I will not say, no, lots of privilege and comfort, to go back, travel across Maharashtra,
#
get kids, right, he also collects kids from different places, from this community, from
#
this community, because he wants to give them the benefit of education, it's not easy, right,
#
because people doubt him, they suspect him, they don't let a child go, but he's at it,
#
gets them, gives them the value of education, now some of these kids have joined government
#
services, so no, look at the impact, okay, it might not be lakhs, millions, but even
#
if he changed ten lives, I'm sure it's much more, because no, presuming he had changed
#
ten lives, where were these kids, they were at some railway station, some traffic light,
#
and then you not only change that kid, you change the family, you change lots of people
#
around them, because there are people who are seeing this, watching this, so that kind
#
of impact, at great personal cost, I think it's a phenomenal story, I don't know many
#
people like Matin in this world, and the people who've not given up, who don't give up, right,
#
it's easy for him to, if he could have lost hope, and he said, okay, it's enough, I can't
#
do this, for whatever reasons, he encroached on a government land, and that land had to
#
go for the highway, so I'm not defending what he did, he himself knows that it's not correct
#
what he did, but the point is to build up again, right, anyone in his place could have
#
lost hope, like this is your lifetime of collecting funds, doing something, you've lived for that
#
all your life, and it suddenly goes away from you, and then to again say no, and these are
#
not your kids, these are not your cousin's kids or sister's kids, brother kids, you have
#
no common bond except for the fact that they come from a community which is not privileged,
#
and you move to do something about them, that is the only thing that drives you, and then
#
to build that all over again, to fight some cases that he has, and multiple courts, and
#
to still be optimistic and say that no, every life I change is worth all of this, I think
#
I think what I found really thought provoking about this, and which no data can really throw
#
further light on, is that someone like Matin, it seems to me, had a deep and profound impact
#
on a few people, now how would you balance that with say having a more superficial impact
#
on a lot of people, and I really don't know, because this impact is so deep, I mean to
#
give a potted note summary of his story, essentially he was from this community, and he decided
#
that he wants kids from this community to be educated, so he went around the state gathering
#
them and there is this powerful anecdote about how he is at Dadar station, and he sees this
#
girl Yogita who is 11 years old, whose parents are no more, and she is an orphan, and he
#
asks her, will you come with me, I will give you an education, and she says I will come
#
with you if you give me tobacco and booze, and 11 year old orphan girl, and if you can
#
change one life like that, in such a profound way that this person gets an education and
#
gets a job and has a family, and all the knock on effects of that, that's incalculable.
#
What I really liked about these stories also is that you show the human side of these people
#
in your storytelling, like the anecdote about where the Koles get married and she goes to
#
the village and she is all, let's do this and all that, but I don't know how to cook,
#
and he says, don't worry, I know how to cook, and then she later finds out as she says,
#
he doesn't even know the difference between sugar and salt, so a charming little touch
#
of the relationship between them in the middle of all the larger things that is happening,
#
I think played a part in making these people real to me also and thus appreciating what
#
they have done so much more.
#
How do you think writing this book changed you?
#
So, I don't know, one, I think this has made me very conscious, aware of my own privileges,
#
and then the fact that with so much privilege and with so much, if I can't do things that
#
I should be doing, then what is the larger point of being in services?
#
Because these guys didn't have any of this, I have the access, I have the privilege, I
#
have the states, I work for the state.
#
So I think one is that feeling which is very, very clear in my head now that this is the
#
least that is expected of us, and if you don't, if you waste your life and if you don't do
#
things which you are supposed to do, then the larger purpose of life thing, I think
#
it helped me figure out and helped me form up my own beliefs.
#
Second, again, just the fact that it helps me stay very grounded and inspired.
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When you meet people like them, because a part of that stays with you, you don't have
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to keep talking about, thinking about, but it's there, a part of all these stories have
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become a part of my own life, and then they stay with me wherever I go, whatever I do,
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and keep informing me in some way or other, subconsciously, consciously in the work I
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do, how I conduct myself, how I go out and try and help people.
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So every time I'll think, a call will come to my head, if there is some similar setting,
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similar context, and one would probably be driven to do that extra bit.
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And it made me, I think, I don't know, a better person, hopefully, because when you
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see so much goodness around, or even Satav, when you meet them, Kavita Satav, what I was
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struck by was, I was like, you know, she's living in, what, for a second place, jungles
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everywhere, there's so much happiness on her face, and all of this was very natural,
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So I was just intrigued, and I was like, no, what is it that, why is there so much calm
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and peace and happiness on your face, because obviously, no, I didn't have that happiness
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and calm, Barkha Ji didn't have, you know, and she's like, no, her reply was very profound.
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She said, I've only got love in my life.
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So if you get so much love, what do you do?
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You radiate love, and which I think was, you know, so nice, because she said, I was so
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loved by my family, my parents, kids, not here, no, when do I do this work, you know,
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by these patients, these travel families.
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So only thing I've got in my life is love.
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So that is what I radiate, that is what I give back.
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So those things, you know, they have stayed, right?
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And they will stay with me for 30 years, 40 years, how long I live.
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And then that makes me a better person, right, because, you know, that is the only language
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she knows of non-judgment, no bias, no hatred, no anger of love.
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So I think, you know, very intangible, I don't know how to define, you know, how it impacts
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you, but hopefully in a good way.
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No, and what she said about getting love is also such a profound insight on one way to
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I mean, what is wealth?
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If you know, isn't that the greatest wealth that you can get?
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So yeah, so really inspiring.
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So I'm grateful to you that you've given me so many hours of your valuable time.
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I hope, you know, as it is, people complain about the weak state capacity in India and
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here I'm sitting with an IAS officer for five hours, I'm contributing to the problem.
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But thank you so much, and I'll ask you to end this episode with the traditional request
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for all my guests, which is, why don't you recommend for me and my listeners, books,
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films, music, any kind of art, which has meant a lot to you, which you'd like to share with
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So I think I'll start with music.
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I listen to quite a lot of Kumar Gandhav's, one of my favorite is Nirvai, Nirgun, Manure
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So even in office, I remember when I was collected, I would switch on YouTube on a low volume.
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People would walk into my office and they'll suddenly hear Nirvai, Nirgun, what is happening
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But no, and I've listened to his other bhajans also that he sings.
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I also listened to lots of Kabir's songs, there is Mr. Tipanya, Pulat Singh Tipanya,
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who does, who sings lots of Kabir bhajans from Malwa region in MP.
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So that again is something that I listen to.
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Books I mostly read non-fiction.
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I've currently been reading two books, again, both biographies.
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One is of again, it's a thick big book, but I'm reading it and the second and I was reading
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the English one, then I realized because I know I can read, write Hindi.
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So I've ordered his, the one written by Shekhar Ejjivani.
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So I hope to read that once I finish the English one.
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I'm also reading George Fernandez's biography.
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So these are the books I'm reading, but my all time favorite would again be, I quite
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like reading Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl.
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I keep going back to that book very often.
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Movies, I don't think I've stopped watching TV, cinemas, not seen anything in a long time,
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but I'm looking forward to watch Kantara because I've heard so much about, I know everyone
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is talking about it, but yeah, largely this and thank you so much Amit.
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I didn't realize that we spoke for so long and then I've heard so much about your podcast
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and then people who come here honestly and know, and I told you right, every time I look
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at your tweet, my heart sings like, ne to yahaan pista da rahe hain, mai aake kya bolunga.
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But thank you for making me so comfortable.
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If you enjoyed listening to this episode, check out the show notes, enter rabbit holes
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at will, do buy Ashutosh's wonderful book, Being the Change.
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You can follow Ashutosh on Twitter at Saleel Ashutosh.
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You can follow me at Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-B-A-R-M-A.
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You can browse past episodes of The Scene Unseen at sceneunseen.in.
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Thank you for listening.
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Did you enjoy this episode of The Scene Unseen?
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If so, would you like to support the production of the show?
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You can go over to sceneunseen.in slash support and contribute any amount you like to keep
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