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Here's a question worth asking yourself.
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Are you living your own life or someone else's life?
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Too often we fall into standard grooves of doing things, of living, we imbibe the conventions
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around us, we give in to inertia, and perhaps we never realize that we've trapped ourselves.
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The only way out of this is self-reflection, and most people don't self-reflect.
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This is especially true when we are young.
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In my 20s, I was so full of myself that I was bursting with arrogance and pomposity.
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But even many people my age don't reflect on themselves.
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That's why I love having long conversations with those who do.
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By allowing me inside their heads, they allow me to understand myself a little better.
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And this is why I urge you, when you talk to people, don't only let it be about what
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my guest today calls information exchange.
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Instead, ask them about themselves and listen with an open mind.
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Do not be in a hurry to respond.
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And when you feel you can trust someone, speak to them without a filter or an agenda.
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When you open yourself up like this, and when you are open to others, you may find to your
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surprise that you're not alone in the world.
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics, and behavioral
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Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen.
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My guest today is my good friend, Murli Neelakantan, whose current occupation these days seems
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to be a full-time father.
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Murli was a spectacularly successful lawyer from the 1990s onwards and spent many years
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in London practicing law.
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He was also a partner at a leading American law firm, but he gave it up to come back to
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And then he left his career entirely to embark upon what he calls Project Arjun, working
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on being a full-time dad to his son, Arjun.
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These biographical details don't come close to capturing how interesting and thought-provoking
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And there's so much wisdom and so much to think about in these conversations, one of
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But before we get to it, let's take a quick commercial break.
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Have you always wanted to be a writer but never quite gotten down to it?
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Well, I'd love to help you.
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Since April 2020, I've enjoyed teaching 27 cohorts of my online course, Sea Art of Clear
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Writing, and an online community has now sprung up of all my past students.
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We have workshops, a newsletter to showcase the work of students, and vibrant community
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In the course itself, through four webinars spread over four weekends, I share all I know
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about the craft and practice of clear writing.
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There are many exercises, much interaction, and a lovely and lively community at the end
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The course costs rupees 10,000 plus GST, or about $150.
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If you're interested, head on over to register at IndiaUncut.com slash clear writing.
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Being a good writer doesn't require God-given talent, just a willingness to work hard and
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a clear idea of what you need to do to refine your skills.
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Murali, welcome to the scene on your own scene.
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Thank you for having me, Amit.
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It's such a pleasure that you're finally here.
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We've been planning this episode for a long time, but I'm going to begin it not by talking
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about something we have been discussing for a long time or something that is there in
#
But something that you just said, where when I started the recording, I said, I'm feeling
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a little disoriented and, you know, you could see me fumbling with my cables and all of
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And you said, why don't you stop and go back and do your rituals before we this thing or
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your routine or whatever.
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And one of the things that really struck me about you, especially when you sent me your
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notes, is the level of organization and detail that is there, like I will tell my listeners
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that Murali sent me such mind blowing notes on himself that I didn't have to do anything
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Everything was like nested entries and de-organized in themes and all of that, like Rome research
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And an added layer, which I don't have in my notes.
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Everything was freaking footnoted, like even a random thought he is having is footnoted
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to something or the other, and I went crazy.
#
So I want to sort of start by asking about the impact of being organized in this way,
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because it strikes me that there are different ways to reach this organization, which is
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either you're an organized kid right from the start or like you went to law school and
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that gives you a certain kind of training that helps you become organized.
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But what I'm also interested in is that how this organization and this way of thinking
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then shapes the person that you are, right?
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Because I would then imagine that someone who is so meticulous and detailed in note
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taking is not going to go on Twitter and give bhashans on subjects he knows nothing about
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or randomly sound off at, you know, all the shit that happens.
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And I'm really interested in how the things that we do, the habits that we take up shape
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And what are your sort of thoughts on this?
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I think you've picked something that most people who know me have picked as this is
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One of the words they would describe me by is he's organized, fastidious, meticulous.
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And if you want to look at it negatively, it's nitpicking.
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So there's a line where it goes from being fastidious to nitpicking.
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But I think it started because my parents were very fastidious.
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My mom, I remember the line she used to say, plan your work and work your plan.
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And that's always stuck with me.
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Everything has a place and everything in its place.
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So it was the simple muhawari kind of thing that I grew up with.
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So everything has a place in my house or at work.
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I've never lost anything.
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I've never lost a wallet, never lost a credit card, never lost self keys, never lost anything.
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There was an instance when a friend of mine from law school was sent home to find a book.
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And I have a library similar to this in my house in Bangalore.
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And he went there and I had instructed him as to where it was going to be.
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And the book was exactly where it was.
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It didn't take him more than 10 seconds to find it.
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So I think it's been drilled into us as kids, my brothers the same, that you've got to
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I sell time as a commodity, right?
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As a lawyer, I sell time as a commodity.
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So the more I can squeeze out of my day, the more I can sell.
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And it's a perishable commodity.
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So if I can squeeze 10 billable hours, when everybody else is only managing six, then
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I'm twice as efficient as they are.
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So I'll be more profitable than they are.
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So what happens in personal life then also works in professional life.
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And I made a real conscious effort.
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And I said that to you earlier.
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I kept time sheets of my time through law school, which recorded all my activities during
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the day and I still have them.
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It started a couple of years before law school.
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So soon after I finished school, and it went on for a couple of years after I became a
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So for about eight, nine years, I have what I think is an accurate record of all my activities
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And did this include things like, did this include personal activities, dating, what
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I drank tea, ate a 2 rupee sandwich.
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What is the date of your first kiss?
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I don't remember, but it's recorded.
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Yeah, it's the same with me.
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But I only recorded the big mind blowing earth shattering events like obviously this would
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be, but absolutely nothing else.
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No, I've recorded everything.
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And I think it is the detail of everything.
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I can tell you what I wore, I can tell you what I ate, I can tell you what time...
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If I see it in the notes, I don't remember.
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I don't remember what happened 30 years ago at that level of detail, but I can tell you
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the book or the journals actually say all of that.
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And they also say, so we have tracking progress.
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So if I had objectives to be achieved, at the end of the week, I could look at my week
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and say, we're doing well, not doing well, making progress, not making progress.
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So it's kind of introspection and checking if the objectives you want to achieve are
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And I guess there are two things that can happen with this and one is that you're organized
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obviously and disciplined and this can help because everything is accounted for.
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But the other also is, our man Arapali Prasanna once told me that line is optional, length
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And I think over here, what would happen is that organizational is mandatory, but self-reflection
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And I want to ask a little bit about that because it is one thing to sort of just write
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in your diary notes like first case and this and that.
#
But how much self-reflection was baked in to that because I sort of when I look back
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on my life and especially when I look back on my youth, there's zero self-reflection
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and I look at people around me and there's zero self-reflection for most people.
#
And as we were discussing at lunch and we'll probably come back to that, especially two
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of men, women are forced to self-reflect and be aware of the world a little more around
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them, but especially so for men.
#
But leaving that aspect of it aside, what was the self-reflection like, you know, since
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when did you start thinking and at one meta level where you're actually looking at yourself
#
I think I can't point out the date when it happened, but growing up gave, I think my
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generation a lot of opportunity to self-reflect because there's not much to do.
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So you're staring at the wall, you're an introvert, you're happy staring at the wall.
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But your mind's not blank, right?
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We haven't reached that level of nirvana yet.
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So there's something happening.
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And either you're very creative and imaginative, which I am not, or you're looking at things
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around you, things are happening to you, things how you feel.
#
So I think that started quite early trying to ask, kya ho raha hai?
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Not that there were answers, but at least the questions were there.
#
And I think by the time I went to law school, I knew what my insecurities were.
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So that bit I had figured out, these are two, three things that really bother me.
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I hadn't figured out what makes me happy yet, but I knew what bothered me a great deal.
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So I think self-reflection came from looking at those logs once in a week and saying, how
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And what made you feel the way you're feeling?
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So it gave data points to reach this conclusion rather than, mujhe lag raha hai ki week was
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good, lag raha hai ki x happened.
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So the introspection is actually looking through it and saying, I think I'm feeling this way.
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What is the data to back it up or am I wrong about it?
#
So I might think I haven't done enough work that week, but actually shows that I've made
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good progress that week.
#
So that is how I looked at data.
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And what do you feel when you look at those notes now?
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Like do you look at those notes now?
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What do you feel about your younger self?
#
And like one common theme on my show, and of course you've really intimidated me by
#
listening to all my episodes and citing from them and all that before this conversation.
#
So one common theme that you'll know is how, you know, on the one hand, we become really
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different people as we go through life.
#
But on the other hand, there is something essential that perhaps doesn't change.
#
What are your thoughts on what is essential and what did change?
#
Like what makes that person a stranger to you and what makes him very much you?
#
I don't feel him as a stranger at all.
#
So I can feel the same emotion of that time now.
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So that's how I remember it.
#
That if you ask me, what did you feel in your first year of law school?
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Right now I can feel it and I get a physical reaction to it.
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So you know, I feel a little bit of nervousness, I feel the tingling, I feel all of that.
#
So my way of remembering a lot of this is this and it actually brings back that level
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So I can remember that person and I can feel that person and I often do to see what that
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So I can feel the insecurity, I can feel the nervousness, I can feel that sense of not
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I can feel all of that now.
#
I've accepted all that now.
#
So at least in the last 10 years, I can say that without choice, it was where it was 30
#
But by choice, I've said, okay, we're fine.
#
I decided then about 10 years ago that I don't have to be a better version of myself.
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Everybody saying you must be better today than you were yesterday.
#
And whoever thinks I should achieve some higher potential, no, please do whatever.
#
So that acceptance came about 10 years ago.
#
But that was not the case.
#
I think when I was, let's say 18, when I thought, there was a lot of uncertainty in every aspect
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I didn't belong to any tribe.
#
I think my academic grades were slightly higher than the highest to be part of the sports
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So all the guys who were playing sport, they were almost as good as to be in the nerd group.
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But they didn't think of me as a nerd because I played sport.
#
So I didn't actually belong to any of these, you know, there's the hostel gang.
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So I didn't go to boarding school, so that gang was different.
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I didn't come from any of the other places, so that gang was different.
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So it just made me feel like an outsider in law school.
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Why am I not part of any tribe?
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What are the signals I'm not seeing?
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Now I look back and think, you know, maybe they put out the signals and your radar was
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not tuned to pick those up.
#
So you didn't know if they're actually welcoming you to a tribe, but I didn't know.
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I didn't see those signals.
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If they were actually throwing out warmth, I never received it because I didn't know
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what form it was arriving.
#
So those are the things I think are different now.
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Is now I get a sense of looking at it, searching for it, looking to detect it, rather than
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face the opposite direction and say, okay, this is what's going to happen.
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I think that's the similarity and difference.
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About detecting signal space, I remember we had a conversation we had when we last
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met at Srinath's book event, where you said that some, you know, at a reunion, some female
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classmates of yours told you that they had also sent signals and you were completely
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clueless, clueless then, kuch idea nahi tha.
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And it comes from how I think we grow up.
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And I look back at it now and I'm able to explain it.
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I didn't know then that we have to learn how to behave in society.
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And unless you're in a family that is very social, where you get a chance to play, you
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can only learn to dance by dancing.
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So you can only learn to behave in society by behaving in society.
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But as a family, we didn't have a lot of social interaction.
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So it was very limited.
#
And as kids, we were meant to just shut up and listen.
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Kids were meant to be seen, not heard.
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So we didn't really get a chance to interact with adults, with other people.
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We didn't have many guests at home.
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So when you get to a stage where you're interacting with society, which law school was, which
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school wasn't very much, but law school was, you have no skills.
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And also you have no way of acquiring those skills.
#
And nobody's actually creating a safe space for you to say, theek hai aajao, hum sikhadenge
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So that was the awkwardness of being introvert, shy.
#
And in law school, where it's quite a vibrant culture at that time.
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Everything is going back to what we discussed earlier.
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We should just have kept the mic on perennially, iski zarurat hi nahi hoti.
#
But yeah, but you know, just going back to male-female relations in India.
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Now in our time, of course, like, I think I'm a little younger than you, but we kind
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of grew up in a sense where you, the boys simply don't know how to talk to girls.
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You're basically going with the first girl who is willing, as you mentioned.
#
And that's really the whole game.
#
And the thing is, even today, where there is technology, there's a lot more intermingling.
#
We live in an age of Tinder and Hinge and all of that.
#
Even today, I think that there is a fundamental disconnect because men and women don't really
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And it is more the case that men don't understand women and they don't understand themselves,
#
but not so much with women.
#
And that seems to me to be a profound mismatch.
#
And we were talking about this, of course, in the context of, you know, how marriage
#
is such an artifact and an outdated institution, which essentially traps both men and women
#
in particular roles, except women are aware that they're trapped and men aren't.
#
And the question there is that then if people understand that it's an outdated artifact,
#
we still don't have a template for how to interact with each other.
#
We still don't have an understanding of what the other person wants.
#
We still don't have a sense of how do you even have a conversation.
#
We are all trapped in the fantasy universes in our little heads.
#
And when there is a mismatch, there is, you know, everything kind of seems out of whack.
#
And through the distance of the many decades that you have lived this life and seen the
#
world around you, what is sort of your sense of how all this is evolving?
#
I think it goes back to exactly what we just spoke, which is we aren't taught how to play
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and therefore we don't know how to play.
#
So we aren't taught how to listen to women or other people generally.
#
So we don't listen very well.
#
And listening is more than just the words.
#
It's trying to understand what the underlying thought is.
#
And that realization came to me very late.
#
I grew up with conversation being an information exchange.
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So I didn't need to talk if I didn't need any information from you.
#
I didn't see it as an interaction, a building of relationships, something deeper than just
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So this realization also came to me very late.
#
But I think so that's the fundamental issue.
#
I think in my life, at least it was difficult to have a close relationship, a warm relationship
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with anyone because that's not how we grew up.
#
I didn't grow up in a family that was huggy, kissy, I love you, none of that ever happened.
#
And therefore, my statement to you that my life was like a potted plant.
#
So the potted plant is just happy to be alive, right?
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It doesn't know it's alive, but it's happy to be alive.
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You have to assume that.
#
So I think that was the way and it's not unique to me.
#
I think a lot of people of my generation will be able to relate to it.
#
I've spoken to several of my friends and they seem to have had a similar experience
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where you don't have expressive parents and cooing parents and telling you beta beta,
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shabash beta, mera raja beta, none of that happened.
#
So at least in the families I know and maybe they are of a particular type, there wasn't
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any raja beta syndrome.
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You were just left there and you turned up in the evening, you're fine, you didn't turn
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They look around and see if you're the neighbors and that's about it.
#
So I think that difficulty therefore with having social relationships with irrespective
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of gender, I think is an issue.
#
People through school and college find these connections with people and are learning how
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to do that interaction.
#
But with women, I think also happens with some of us that at home you're told that
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women are a distraction.
#
My wife still says that to my teenage son.
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I thought she says that to you.
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She's given up on me, but that's also the issue with patriarchy, that women are the
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And so again, there's a barrier to having that interaction and then you're suddenly
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in a state where you're supposed to have these interactions.
#
I think this generation is now facing the me too problem that where is that line?
#
So my generation was awkward with women.
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This generation is also awkward with women.
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My generation had the noughties, this generation also has the noughties.
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So I think the problem remains the same.
#
The reasons for them are slightly different.
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Dirty old men, noughties as in N-A-U-G-H-T-Y, noughties, you're the noughties guys.
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So you had e-teasers then, you have e-teasers now, you have stalkers then, you have stalkers
#
Women put up with it then, they're not putting up with it now.
#
But I don't think the men have understood how to communicate.
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The reasons for why we communicated badly are different from why I think boys communicate
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We communicated badly because we weren't taught how to do it.
#
Now I think the reasons are different.
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I mean they lack a vocabulary, they lack this thing about wanting to do it, they're happy
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to just text K and be done.
#
And we were talking about the Agya episode earlier and one of the things that kind of
#
struck me about Agya and I think you agreed with me is that, yeah, interesting man and
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this is by the way, Agya was a great Hindi writer, I did a recent episode with Akshay
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And married a number of times and all of that.
#
And for me, more than Agya, I found the women in his life much more interesting.
#
Because Agya was just living his life and using people and not self-reflective at all.
#
While all of these women were seeing everything.
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They were seeing him and they were seeing themselves in relation to him.
#
And you know, in the great episode I did with the great Shanta Gokhale, I don't like to
#
use so many adjectives but it is justified here.
#
And she spoke about how, for example, when her second husband Mr. Khupkar is proposing
#
to her on the beach and there are two voices in her head and one voice knows that this
#
is a bad idea, he's a womanizer, kya kar rahe ho, nikal jao.
#
And the other voice is saying, yeah, this is what I want.
#
But at least there is that awareness ki these are my conflicting impulses.
#
Men don't even have that awareness ki kar kya rahe hai.
#
You know, I mean, I'm not generalizing, some men do, you know, we are the good ones as
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they would say but I don't think so.
#
I mean, there seems to be this enormous asymmetry here that women, to get by in the world, have
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to account for themselves and they also have to be aware of the men.
#
And not aware of the men in the sense that men may pose a threat to them or whatever,
#
but what are they like, what, you know, whereas men don't, men are just kind of by and large
#
are oblivious to a lot of this.
#
Is this a cultural thing?
#
You should speak to an evolutionary biologist or something to say, you know, is this how
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men are wired because we can just sow the wild oats and move on, whereas women have
#
to think long term because they're going to have to bring up the babies.
#
Maybe it's evolutionary biology in that sense, that we don't think longer term than what's
#
happening now and women are just tuned to thinking longer term on many things.
#
I mean, at the heart of it is biology and genes, of course, and I completely agree with
#
this, but at the same time, it's really interesting to see that, number one, our genes can wire
#
us in different contradictory ways at the same time, like we can be wired for extreme
#
selfishness but also for empathy and altruism simultaneously.
#
And number two, I also find the interplay between nature and nurture really interesting,
#
like the great, I mean, what makes humans unique is that we are the one species that
#
can mitigate its own programming.
#
And that is what culture does.
#
And to me, that is the enlightenment project that we try to amplify the better angels of
#
our nature and to, you know, subdue what is even the opposite, the demons, the devils,
#
to subdue what we want to subdue within our nature.
#
So we are hardwired to want children, but people can decide not to do it.
#
We can be hardwired to sow their seed wherever they can, but we can decide to be monogamous.
#
But at the same time, the hardwiring is there and it is always having an impact.
#
And we, you know, a lot of how we deal with it is rationalizations and delusions.
#
It's true, but also think of it this way, the criticism of women seems to be, and it's
#
researched, is that they marry the man they want him to be.
#
So the downside of projecting so far into the future and thinking long term is that
#
you're not marrying the man he is, but you're marrying the man you think he can be.
#
So the disappointment on the other side is when I don't meet that expectation of the
#
person she married, causes her to be frustrated, angry, unhappy in the relationship.
#
So I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but there's an upside to it and
#
Do I want to be my wife's project?
#
Her big project is the husband.
#
That can be quite difficult.
#
Yeah, and also a lot of marriages happen really early.
#
People change, people become completely different people.
#
Now, you might be lucky enough that at the end of it, everything's kind of worked out
#
fine, but it isn't always like that.
#
And I feel that if there is like, it's that whole thickened and desires, right, that you
#
follow the mimetic desire that we will marry, we will do this, we will do that.
#
And then the decades pass and...
#
Actually, this didn't happen to us.
#
I didn't think I would get married for two reasons.
#
I grew up in a family that wasn't, I didn't see happy marriage.
#
Not just in my family, but I didn't see any happy marriage anywhere around.
#
So they weren't these lovey-dovey couples.
#
They weren't these parents who looked happy all the time.
#
Just seemed like two people in a house.
#
The institution of marriage didn't really represent itself in anybody I knew.
#
I just thought of them as two people.
#
Marriage didn't add anything to them.
#
I couldn't see what it added to them.
#
So I wasn't really a fan of it growing up.
#
And in some ways, I was a bhakta of your theory that it's a sin on society and a crime on
#
But then somewhere along the way, the marriage took place and the child was born.
#
You're saying it in your own voice.
#
You did it, didn't you?
#
I'm using exactly the term that...
#
Boss, this is a little homage to every one of your episodes in this conversation.
#
Yeah, I gotta tell people.
#
I was discussing with Murli on a Zoom call yesterday about what we should talk about.
#
He quoted from some seven of my episodes.
#
At one point, I told sir that I was telling him an anecdote about Mrinal Pandeyji's mother
#
And he stopped me and he said, no, this is not Mrinal Pandeyji's mother and aunt.
#
This is Sara Rai's mother and aunt.
#
You are confusing episode 255 with 263.
#
And of course, he was right.
#
And I said, oh my God, like, my own memory, look, but you know, speaking of memory and
#
going back to the theme of parents, like, I remember my mom died in 2008 and my dad
#
died during COVID during the second wave.
#
And I remember going through all his old papers and everything.
#
And I'd come across letters from my mother to him earlier and I also came across, I basically
#
came across things which gave me a sense of the inner state of both people.
#
And what I realized that both of them were desperately lonely all the way through their
#
marriage, that they were, you know, like you said, two people together, but living sort
#
of solitary lives within that.
#
And at some point, I think what happens is that you reach that stage of inertia where
#
you kind of give up on the other person being what they want, but you don't give up on the
#
thing and you're just going through the motions.
#
So I totally kind of empathize, you know, let's get to biography now and you've described
#
your childhood as, you know, as you being a potted plant and in your words, quote, fed
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and water checked every now and then to see if it was still alive, so, you know, where
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What was childhood like?
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I was actually born in Pune.
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My grandfather was a minor civil servant in the defense establishment.
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And so my mom came to have me in Pune.
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So I was born in Pune, but I lived most of my childhood in Bangalore because my parents
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And so it was a very middle class upbringing in the real sense of the middle class.
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So I think of it as my parents never owned a house.
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So you know, one of the aspirations of the middle class is to own a house.
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By that logic, even I don't own a house, but that's for different reasons.
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My father didn't do the math.
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Actually he's quite bad with money.
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So it was a, I think an upbringing where we had enough food, we were not wanting for
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And some would say my father lived beyond his means.
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So money was always a big thing for me growing up.
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It was a huge insecurity growing up that the whole point of this exercise is to make money.
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Point of working is to make money.
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But I was also practical that there will be a number in mind.
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So when I graduated law school, I had a number in mind that if I get this much, then it's
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At that time, it was a crore.
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How much does it cost with an adjustment?
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So I had predicted in 96 that I would have crores of rupees, so I can quit.
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Boss, that is my secret weapon, that I'm very good at doing nothing.
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So money was always a thing at home.
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Not that we were wanting, but that fixes lots of problems.
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So yeah, I went to a school that was quite well known in Bangalore, but didn't produce
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It was kind of a nerd school.
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That everyone will become an engineer doctor and have middling lives.
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And so that was, I think, little school and middle school.
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Nothing much to talk about, it was quite uneventful.
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Now I think back and I think I find significance in events there.
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But at the time, it was a very ordinary life.
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You ask people on your podcast, what books were you reading at that time?
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Because the library was one room in the school with cupboards that were locked.
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And you're allowed near it twice in a month for one hour.
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To just sit and read, you can't take books from it.
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So it was a library to show off.
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Nothing really got used in that library.
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It is just like PTV was like that.
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We never actually did anything useful during those two hours a month.
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So I went to a school that didn't really think very much about extracurricular, physical,
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That good marks should not be found in exams.
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That our students take good marks in CBSE and become a doctor-engineer.
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So that was growing up.
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But now I look back and look at, you know, the people who play, who say, oh, I went to
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play tennis or basketball.
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I noticed that in law school that who are the kids who play tennis, squash, basketball,
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The clear class divide.
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We can't play basketball, we will play volleyball, not basketball.
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So there's a clear divide.
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Kids who had gymkhana memberships, lived in South Bombay, that's one type.
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Your kid lives in South Bombay and has a gymkhana membership.
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And it's interesting you say that, Amit, because I was having a conversation with somebody
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and it came out of an incident.
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When we were living in London, we had tickets to come back and had tons of miles.
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So I had cashed my miles.
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So they upgraded two of us and not the third.
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And the upgrade was obviously mine because it was my card.
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So we had two tickets in business and one in economy.
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So who came into the economy, out of the three?
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Because that is the role we have been taught.
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No, because I am the son of a poor man.
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My son is the son of a rich man.
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He's never seen this life.
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Right from the time he was born, I had so much miles that we used to fly first on BA.
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Not business, first on BA.
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So we have photos of him, tiny baby, watching his video of whatever cartoons and eating
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by himself from the time he was a year old or so.
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So he doesn't know that there is so much space behind the plane, people go to the other side.
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We entered the gate from the gate and went to the left.
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We didn't even see the right at that time.
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So that's the difference that some of those things, I can't explain why I still worry
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But that's just me now.
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It's become part of me that at that time we were going to be frugal, we are still frugal.
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If I pay more than Rs. 60 and go to the Uber Premier, I won't sell it.
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It's not about affordability, it's about how you are wired to think in a particular way.
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And this is a social wiring in the sense that, I remember when my dad came to Bombay, I'd
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take him to the Marriott for the breakfast buffet and he would have everything on the
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And if I'm not in the mood, I just eat an omelette and I'm done.
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It's not that I have money, I want everything and all of that.
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And yeah, it's kind of interesting that even when you are aware of that process within you,
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but you're still like, no, I won't take Uber Premier.
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I don't think it's a universal thing.
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Because my wife comes from a similar socioeconomic background.
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She has no qualms about it.
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In fact, she will buy the most expensive thing.
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So I think she's the exact opposite of me.
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She thinks of expensive as quality.
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So if it's an identical thing, one costs, let's say, five lakhs rupees and the other
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She will buy the five lakh thing.
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I think that is the other fallout of not having the money.
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You think if it's more expensive, it must be better.
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So we have two divergent, contrasting views in the family.
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I will go for value and she will go for quote unquote quality.
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And the two can often lead to the same direction because I used to think as a young person
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when I couldn't afford big brands, I used to think this is more expensive.
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This is the brand name and nothing else.
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Today I've kind of realized that no, there is a difference in the product.
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Sometimes you've got to pay the three X because it just does make a difference.
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And I have very mixed emotions when I'm there.
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It's not an easy thing.
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And when I was in London and I would go and buy a suit, I knew what a good suit was.
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And it took a lot of real persuasion of myself to say you deserve it.
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But I would never buy it on the first attempt.
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I used to go and see it.
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I used to see it for the second time.
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I used to see it for the third time.
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Then somehow made the effort to go inside and be fitted for it.
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And then still have second thoughts at that time that really it's like $1,200 or £1,000 or whatever.
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That it's on sale at $1,000 or £1,000.
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But I guess the process of actually acquiring...
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The one that fits well.
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But how do you define fitting well?
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See, the problem is in this is you said something that really hurt me the other day on Twitter DM
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where you heard my episode with Pushpeshji and our lament on how nothing fits us because ponch and all that.
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And you told me that I will wear slim fit.
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Which as I can see, it's not a video podcast.
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You don't have to post anything.
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But you came on slim fit.
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So I guess a fitting for you would be different than a fitting for me.
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And I won't even know what a good fitting is frankly.
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But leaving that aside entirely.
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Did you watch that movie Casino Royale, the remake of it?
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With Eva Green and Daniel Craig?
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I did watch that but I don't remember anything except they got the poker terribly wrong.
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There are dinner jackets and there are dinner jackets.
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It's the line that she uses for a jacket that she gives him to wear the casino.
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She didn't do my writing course.
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I say in my writing course, never say the latter.
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Because then the reader has to go backwards to figure out what was the second.
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And the line is catchy of course.
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The way you deliver it.
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There are dinner jackets and there are dinner jackets.
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It works in this context.
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I think it works beautifully in this context.
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You see it, you know it.
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And everybody has a different body shape and some things fit better for some kind of people.
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So slim fit works very well for me.
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It doesn't work for a lot of people.
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So I'll ask you a question because we're talking material things and objects and all that.
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And I asked this to a group of friends.
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I had gone for lunch with Roshan Abbas and Subrata Mohanty and Rain Shanoi and Amit Chhandilya and Sudhir Sarnobert, all good friends of mine.
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And I can't give you any of their answers because that is private.
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I'll give you my answer.
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And the answer was to talk about one object in the world that kind of defines who you are or where you are and all of that.
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It's a very interesting one because my son did a project for a subject called Theory of Knowledge.
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He had to pick an object which is the unknowable thing, something that can't be known.
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And it made me think a lot about what is this object that symbolizes the unknowable.
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And we had a very, very interesting discussion.
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And he picked Schrodinger's cat.
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His teacher said he couldn't have it because it was not an object.
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It's a mind experiment.
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And he refused to accept it.
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He said, to me, it is real.
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And this is how it is real.
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He doesn't let us watch him play sport.
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We can't go and watch him play sport.
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And his explanation for that is that he thinks he will have performance anxiety if daddy's watching.
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And he said, therefore, I am the cat in the Schrodinger's cat.
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Sir, your son turned out to be your father.
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So to me, those will be the kind of things, the objects that I would describe as the unknowable.
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I haven't figured myself out yet.
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But that's a different thing.
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But out of the objects, like I'll give you my answers.
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You kind of get the drift.
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And my great regret, which I have been lamenting about recently, is that the only thing I wanted to do in my life is really write fiction,
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I should have written 10, 12 books by now.
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I haven't done anything.
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One is young relatively.
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But still, there is a sense of decades gone and lost.
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And to me, the object that represents that is when I was clearing out my dad's house.
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I remember in the 1980s when I was a little kid and I had announced at the age of nine and the age of 10 that I would become a writer.
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And what he used to do as a government servant is he would get all these diaries at the start of Jan.
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And he would give these diaries to me and he would say, write better.
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So I have a diary he gave me in 1986.
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It is a brown leather diary, which he gave me in 1986.
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And he said, son, write on this.
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And I said, okay, I'll be a writer.
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And I wrote two or three pages and didn't write after that.
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And I still have that empty diary.
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And that's the story of my life.
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I have no such thing that I can identify.
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I'll think about it, but I can't identify the one thing that represents any one thing, not the one thing.
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Because after all, multitudes, but something connected with law, with childhood.
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No, I don't connect to law as a personal thing.
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I did law because it was a way to make money.
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Something of your mother's.
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No, I think the one thing I'm really passionate about, but doesn't love me back, is playing billiards.
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Playing sport generally.
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That I love it, but the sport doesn't love me.
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What does that even mean?
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If you love it, the sport loves you because it is giving you red love.
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So for example, I've broken my neck three times.
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So I can't, I don't have good technique now while playing billiards because it requires you to bend down and lift your neck up.
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So my technique is very poor, which means my shot making is very poor.
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Also, I need different sets of glasses.
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So there's a whole lot of issues that make it difficult for me to play to the level I could play once.
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And definitely nowhere near the potential I exhibited as an 18 year old.
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So it's a kind of one sided thing there.
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You know, I don't play it elegantly, gracefully.
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I'm effective, but I was never coached and so I'm self-taught in that sense.
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I'm still better than a lot of people.
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I can still give the kids a run for their money.
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I still beat the school high school team when we play against them.
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So I wish I could be more elegant, more graceful.
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I think sport is what would represent.
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I think there are, you know, two ways to think about that.
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And one way is that you're playing sport because it is fundamentally competitive and you want to be, you want to win.
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You want to beat the other guy.
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You want to humiliate the other motherfucker and all of that.
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And the other way is that you're just playing it because you love playing it.
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So in that sense, if you love playing it, why does it matter?
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Okay, neck is not up, form is not good, ball didn't go in.
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Because it caused a lot of frustration.
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This is a shot I could play.
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It is not played every day because the kids don't play it anymore.
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Only the oldies play billiards.
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So when somebody sees it, it's like the chef's kiss.
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They're all doing that to you.
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And you feel it when you play it.
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Because I could play this and I would get it seven out of ten.
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I'm getting two out of 19 or something.
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Yeah, but those two are recorded and you can edit and you don't have to show the other 17.
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And that's exactly how I rationalize when I play now.
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I will not score more points than the other guy.
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Overall, the average of my game is going to be very bad.
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But I'll have two or three shots in a two-hour session that I will feel that it was fun.
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And I will keep trying the difficult one, hoping that I will make at least one that day.
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But the toll it takes on me is a week of pain after that for having played those two hours.
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That's why I said the game doesn't love me back as much.
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Saying, okay, you go into so much pain, we'll give you four good shots rather than one in a two-hour period.
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And I can't play more than two hours because then I'm completely out after that.
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So with any sport, that's the thing.
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And there are injuries.
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I get volleyball injuries once a month or so.
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And then they take two weeks to heal.
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You kind of lost half the month recovering from the damn thing.
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And then you go through your physical conditioning camps and you come back to play and you straight away get it again.
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No, no, no. So that is why I said so.
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I think if somebody, if I would look back at myself, I think it would be sport and say he played sport and he liked, enjoyed playing it.
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And I think I'm happiest on a sports field, even when I'm not doing spectacularly well.
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I think I'm happy there.
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Well, let's go back to kind of childhood.
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And there is sports in that, of course, and we'll come to that.
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But tell me about your parents.
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So my father was a very interesting man, very sharp, perhaps even brilliant, but exceptionally short tempered, very angry with the world.
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He had, I think we never spoke about it as parents of that era.
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And children never speak about these things.
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But I think he felt that he was victimized by the world.
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He was an unusual man, academically good, but rebellious in class, which meant that you got slammed very badly.
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So even if you were bright, you came across as cocky, arrogant, stubborn, petulant, whatever.
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He played sport exceptionally well.
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So he played university basketball, table tennis and water polo.
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I'm yet to see somebody who plays these three sport at least university state level and make it to the teams there.
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I don't think I know anyone who plays water polo at all.
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True. So that was his thing that he was doing well in sport, but came from a family that didn't want him to play sport.
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Wanted him to focus on studies and in class, he was pretty much victimized by his teachers.
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And so he ended up being this very angry with the world person and therefore didn't go into university.
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Therefore, the rest of life didn't treat him as well as it should have, or he thought he should have.
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So I think he went through life generally being very angry with the world.
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And we generally avoided daddy.
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It's like dads in the house means you just become invisible. You become the potted plant.
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So there wasn't really much that we interacted father and kids.
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The only interaction that we can think of or rather it happened when we were there was movies and music.
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And I think I have a theory that children listen to the music that their parents like.
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So they're generally one generation behind in our time because that was the only access to music.
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Now my son can go and find his own music. But for us, the access to music was through our parents.
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So we listened to what they liked.
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So if he liked a particular kind of music, then that was the music we listened to and we got to like.
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And he liked the music of the 50s and 60s tremendously.
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A little bit of the 70s, but largely it was 50s, 60s music, not much of the 80s and 90s.
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The Subrata Mohanty music.
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Subrata in his episode talks about...
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Yes, yes, yes. I thought Subrata Mohanty music.
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There was a playlist which he put out. I don't think so.
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So yeah, so it's the music of my parents. So that was really the only connection.
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And we didn't think of it as unusual.
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You know, I've had this conversation with my mother thinking, did you think that you missed out something?
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No, I thought that was how all kids were with their parents because we didn't see kids interacting with their parents any differently.
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So we didn't have any benchmark to say my father is worse than somebody else's father.
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I think the only difference I noticed was there would be times when kids would be dropped off in school by their parents.
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I never got that. So I used to actually walk an hour to school.
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Walk one hour to school each way.
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Is that why you're so slim even today?
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Nobody would explain something else.
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But dad never came to drop us off if we were traveling somewhere or pick us up back.
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It was normal, right? You go and send off your kids if they're going somewhere or you go and pick them up from the railway station.
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So I took a suitcase, a bus, I would go to the railway station, go to wherever and then come back home.
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And that was it. It was very uneventful.
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So we didn't have any of these kind of things that parents and children do together, you know.
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And there was no good explanation for it.
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All my dad had to do was leave 20 minutes earlier and my school was on his way to work.
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And we never thought much of it.
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He said, okay, we'll go.
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So I think that was the relationship.
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It changed a lot, I think, over the years when he started seeing it differently.
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But growing up, school and in law school, it was very distant.
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I don't think I ever got a pat on the back for anything.
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And I didn't think I deserved it because you didn't get it.
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So it's kind of a circular argument, right?
#
All of these things you're saying in hindsight in the sense that he could have left 20 minutes earlier.
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And obviously you're saying you didn't think it then, but you think it now.
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When did you start thinking about it and how did it change?
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What was this process like?
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Because too often what happens is that our parents, especially of all our relations, they become a fixed point in space.
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So it is easy for you to say that my father is a coward.
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But it is only now with hindsight that you can empathize and say that he was angry at the world.
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And this is not stuff you thought then, it's stuff you're saying now.
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Tell me about that process.
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I think it happened much after I went to London.
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So it must have been in my 30s.
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Because before that, we never had very much interaction, as we said.
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But when we did interact, it was always unpleasant.
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So he'd want to teach me chess, but it didn't help that he wanted to checkmate me on the eighth move.
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And immediately he's playing a double role here.
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The father who's trying to teach the kid something, but the competitive guy who wants to win because he's playing.
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So it can't be that every time you're trying to teach, you're actually completely humiliating the other guy.
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So our sessions, he was trying to teach me math, for example, would be humiliating.
#
So therefore more avoiding, right?
#
So you kind of avoided that if I have trouble with math, I'll figure it out myself.
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You don't understand even this.
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Just do this, this, this and this and it happens.
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I think I don't know how to do any of those four things to make it happen.
#
So you see, that was the, but I thought that was how all parents were.
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Daddy was a nuclear weapon.
#
We all stayed clear of that and dealt with mom as much as possible.
#
So yeah, so, but that changed, I think, as I said, when I was about 30, also it changed him because he had retired.
#
I think it was much easier on himself.
#
And I think privately, after I left law school, he started at least telling others that my son is doing well.
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Never to me, but kind of indirectly I would hear it.
#
But before that, I never heard that from him.
#
That my son has done something good, never.
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Through school, he didn't even know which class we were in.
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Whether he was in 7th or 8th or what he was studying.
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And had no interest in it.
#
So he was kind of a remote character for us most of the time.
#
But did you discuss all this stuff with him?
#
No, never, never got a chance to discuss it.
#
He wasn't the type who wanted to discuss it as well.
#
And I think we kind of understood that I understood and then let it pass.
#
And as I said, the relationship got much warmer and nicer.
#
I think as I turned 30 and he virtually retired.
#
Maybe he found acceptance in himself by that time.
#
And I'm just thinking aloud.
#
After my dad died, I realized recently that the grief is always as strong, but you think about it less.
#
And I wonder in the case of your dad's anger with the world.
#
Was it that he could come to terms with it and get less angry with the world?
#
Or was it that he was always angry with the world, but he could think about it less?
#
I don't know. I don't know.
#
It's been an interesting conversation to have with him.
#
But he wasn't the types who would have these kind of conversations.
#
So I don't know if he thought about it or he just ignored it.
#
He distracted that thought with whatever else was more immediate.
#
Rather than dwell on his past, he may just deal with what is present before him.
#
And that occupies his mind, therefore has no space for the past to come in.
#
I don't think he was the introspecting, reflective types.
#
But I don't know. I don't know.
#
The conversations I had with him, as I said in my thirties, were more daily things, mundane things.
#
Were never about the past.
#
Were about now and what is happening now or what is going to happen soon.
#
It was never looking back.
#
In fact, even with my mom, the conversations I've had about looking back have been very recent.
#
Maybe in the last 10-15 years.
#
It wasn't about going back.
#
And I don't see value in it.
#
It's nice to have it as a conversation, as a way of connecting good old days.
#
But it doesn't have any impact on me.
#
It's not as if it's therapeutic and it's going to make me feel better about the past.
#
I've accepted the past and said, I can change the future.
#
So that part of it, I don't need therapy for.
#
It goes back to what you earlier said about conversations as info exchange.
#
That sometimes that connection itself matters and it may matter to them.
#
Because what I have realized about conversations is that the exact thing you want to, that doesn't matter.
#
That's the most trivial aspect of conversation is what you correctly put as an info exchange.
#
And that connection is special when it happens.
#
Tell me about your mother.
#
So she grew up in Pune as one of five kids.
#
And my grandfather started, her father started as a very lowly clerk in a government office.
#
Eventually retired as an officer.
#
So sheer hard work did it.
#
And he was very keen that his kids should be convent educated.
#
And yet proper, proper convent.
#
So she went to the society of Jesus and Mary, convent of Jesus and Mary.
#
Nice school, taught by Angreys.
#
And I think the family is very proud of the fact that all the kids spoke very good English.
#
And my grandfather is very, very particular about it.
#
And I remember even as a kid, it was the thing for us.
#
Your Tamil's crap, but the English has to be good.
#
And the pride of my grandparents is that the grandchild speaks very good English.
#
So she grew up in Pune.
#
But in a really strange way because the family was Tamil.
#
And so at home you have this very, very orthodox, conservative, Tamilian, poor household.
#
But you go to school where you have rich kids in an Angreys setting.
#
So I think that somehow was quite a lot of conflict for her.
#
That, you know, she's expected to wear pretty shoes and socks and all of that.
#
Once she couldn't afford it.
#
And through your wading through mud to get there.
#
So you get punished for dirty shoes, dirty socks.
#
You have no money to buy clothes.
#
So my grandma is basically stitching the clothes.
#
And so obviously it won't look as nice as the other kids clothes and you get punished for it.
#
So I think she had a very difficult time in school where she didn't really find her place.
#
That it seemed like a lot of punishment for her in school.
#
An outsider again like you were.
#
And she actually wrote a very nice piece on the right to education.
#
Which now is now a fundamental right and we've got a law in it.
#
And she said this was my experience of being an outsider in a rich school.
#
And she's wondering how it will be for kids not of that socio-economic bracket.
#
To then go into these kind of schools because they have a right to it.
#
And what it actually causes them.
#
So she wrote a very, very nice piece.
#
It was published in the Deccan Herald I think.
#
I'll link it from the show notes.
#
So that was her growing up in Pune.
#
And then she got married to my father quite early.
#
She was I think 23 or so.
#
And she got married, 21 when she got married.
#
And then came to Bangalore.
#
She never actually traveled to Bangalore and lived in Bangalore anywhere near Bangalore.
#
So it was quite I think a big shock for her.
#
And then I was born a couple of years after they got married.
#
But the two years before I got married I think were the happiest married years of my parents life.
#
My father would go off and set up factories for whoever in weird parts of town.
#
So Bhavnagar, Hyderabad, Secunderabad, whatever.
#
And in those days if you're setting up this thing you're the boss of that area.
#
So you got a good hotel.
#
And my mom had never seen the inside of a hotel.
#
Never eaten in a restaurant.
#
So for her it was like a five star life.
#
And then come to Bangalore and have kids and then the drudgery begins right.
#
So I think she didn't really take to married life very well.
#
And my father was not an easy man to be with.
#
He wanted his mother times too.
#
So he wanted everything that his mother did for him.
#
Plus somebody to take care of the house.
#
Plus someone to take care of the kids.
#
So I think she had a very tough time.
#
But the strange thing was she's an introvert.
#
Not very social in that sense.
#
But read lots of newspapers and periodicals.
#
So I always had newspapers and periodicals at home growing up.
#
We'd get Illustrated Weekly.
#
But along with what subsequently we got Frontline India Today.
#
Now she still gets Week, Caravan.
#
So I think that's what kept her.
#
That she'd like to read quietly by herself.
#
And then after Appa, she's really found wings.
#
She's really come into her own.
#
She's happy to go out traveling by herself.
#
She's got a great social life around where she lives.
#
The huge transformation.
#
Which we didn't see this side of her when Appa was around.
#
So I think there are stages in people's lives when they are hit by circumstances.
#
And they adapt to those circumstances.
#
And then we see them in those circumstances.
#
And then circumstances change and they become different people.
#
So she's much more chilled now.
#
She's much more relaxed.
#
And she's found herself.
#
And so do you talk with her about all of this stuff?
#
I think because we're looking at difference in parenting, right?
#
She sees what kind of a parent I am to my son.
#
So she asks, are you doing this because you didn't get it?
#
Are you doing this because of your personal experience of it?
#
I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do.
#
Because I think this is the thing to do.
#
This is not some silent protest against something that happened to me.
#
But the answer is actually yes or no, no?
#
I mean, I'm not trying to morally explain you.
#
The answer is that I have thought about it more than my father thought about it.
#
Parenting is a conscious act.
#
I decided that I will be a good parent.
#
So every one of these things is very conscious.
#
It didn't happen to me.
#
Do you try to bring that same intentionality to all your relations?
#
In the sense of marriage, obviously.
#
But even with friends, is that something that you become intentional about?
#
So through law school, I didn't think I had any friends.
#
I had acquaintances, people I played sport with, people I had activity.
#
So like activity partners.
#
So nobody with whom I really thought anything would continue to happen after this activity finished.
#
So I disagree with the lot which says I can't make any new friends after my teenage years.
#
Referring to Abhinandan Sekari.
#
So obviously well done.
#
But my experiences have been that from school, I only have two friends I'm still in touch with.
#
Which is two more than I have.
#
But again, I'd lost touch with them from 1986 to 2004.
#
So about 15-16 years after I left school, I wasn't in touch with any one of them.
#
And then it just happened that some Google groups or something started at that time.
#
And then they found me from somewhere and then sent an email.
#
And then I'm in touch with two of them.
#
But other than that, I'm not in touch with any of the school friends.
#
And at uni as well, through law school, even the five years were a small group of people stuck for five years.
#
I didn't think I had any close friends during that time.
#
And the close friends I have now are those people from law school who became close since I left law school.
#
Because we've done stuff together.
#
Not because of what we did during law school.
#
So my sense of it was, I will make the effort to do certain things.
#
Which is very different from what happened in law school where I thought I was making the effort and I didn't get anything back.
#
So I thought, I'm bringing you lunch.
#
You're having lunch, but we're not getting anything.
#
I'm helping you do your assignments.
#
But I'm not even seeing gratitude back.
#
That is my recollection and that's what my notes from that time say.
#
That you're making the effort, but you're not seeing any return on it.
#
Not that you expect one-on-one correlation for effort and return.
#
But you're not seeing anything coming back from there.
#
I think boys that age also tend to be oblivious that someone is doing something, someone is bringing lunch.
#
They just tend to be oblivious to these things.
#
Everything is normalized, taken for granted.
#
But even things that I thought were big at that time was,
#
Boss, you couldn't have cleared this paper without me.
#
And I don't have to do this for you.
#
I'm not even part of your group.
#
So this is all trying to get into tribes, right?
#
How do I think I can get into this tribe by doing this?
#
How do you think I can get into that tribe by doing things that I think they will value?
#
But clearly that was not valued much.
#
I'm doing it, and there's absolutely no acknowledgement of it.
#
Forget gratitude of it.
#
But that changed after I think I became a lawyer.
#
And I said, doesn't matter.
#
Whether it will come back or not, we'll see.
#
So the people who I'm close to now, I continue to engage with them over the years.
#
And that's become a really comfortable relationship.
#
In fact, one of them will turn 50 this year.
#
His wife says, I am the wife.
#
So she and her son both kind of say, that is the couple.
#
Murali and Karthik are the couple.
#
So that's very strange.
#
And we don't actually speak about any personal stuff.
#
So we're like the boys, right?
#
Two guys get together, they don't talk personal stuff.
#
But we don't talk personal stuff, but this is the relationship.
#
We call up and say, I have this problem.
#
This is something. This is some other thing.
#
And I see him every time I'm in Madras.
#
It's not a relationship based on sharing vulnerabilities.
#
That's not been the basis of any relationship in that sense.
#
So yeah, it's a strange way of connecting to people.
#
Have the way you form friendships with women changed?
#
Because one thing I've kind of noticed, and this is probably just an impact of the podcasting that I do,
#
is that I find that the quality of conversation that I can have with a woman is actually a really different one,
#
even a much better one in some ways.
#
Where, you know, there is, there is no, I don't know how to put it,
#
no filter, no pretense that once somebody feels that you can be trusted and it is, you know,
#
you just reach that pitch, as it were, which with a man,
#
like I have very good friendships with men where it's like you and Karthik perhaps,
#
we don't need to do anything.
#
You can just chill and it's okay.
#
And you don't need to share deep personal thoughts and all of that.
#
But with women, with some conversations I've had randomly, I've realized that you can just sit
#
and you've just got that connection.
#
And it's a beautiful thing.
#
And we were never fucking taught this.
#
We, our generation, we did not know how to talk to women.
#
And I think most men even now don't, which is why when, you know,
#
I think like somebody was asking the other day why I have on my show,
#
though I'm not referring to show conversations,
#
but somebody said on your show, why do you have so many great conversations with women?
#
And I think one of the reasons is that you said it to me and others have also been pointing it out
#
And I'm speculating that one of the reasons is that they find someone who's willing to listen
#
and keep their ego out of it.
#
And then once they, when they know they're in a space where they can trust the person,
#
then you just, you know, hit that level of conversation, which is like so hard
#
and also greater, much greater self-awareness than men.
#
No, I think I grew up, and I distinctly remember this,
#
thinking that there's no difference between men and women.
#
I was both right and wrong.
#
There is a big difference between men and women,
#
but it came from the right place, which is that I don't discriminate between men and women.
#
So the conversation I have with the guys I'm willing to have with the women.
#
But that itself was a very silly thought,
#
because what's interesting to women is not interesting to men.
#
So my trying to be equal and treating both equally
#
only exposed how little I knew about women.
#
So I treated them both the same.
#
So in the sense I didn't discriminate, if there's any consolation to that,
#
but it didn't really endear me to either of them.
#
And I didn't learn how to flirt, and I didn't know if they were flirting with me.
#
So that was the part that I was blind to.
#
So my conversations were information exchange, right?
#
And that was the conversations I had then.
#
Do you know how to flirt now?
#
No, and I still don't read the signs,
#
because I was with a couple of friends,
#
and somebody came up at a conference and said something and went away.
#
And then somebody next to me says, she has the eyes for you.
#
And I said, how do you see these things?
#
I didn't see any of this.
#
She said, no, it's very obvious.
#
I said, it is obvious, it's not a useful comment.
#
But boss, the other greater problem is that not having eyes for this is one thing,
#
but having eyes for things that are not there is another thing.
#
That woman will get friendly and you'll think, yes, this is a problem.
#
You know, which is a greater problem, frankly, in India.
#
And that is the fear, right?
#
So for me, it is that I don't know how to see it.
#
So better to err on the fact that it is not happening.
#
Also, you've got to be faithful to Karthik.
#
Although I think in that sense, there is no monopoly on love.
#
I don't think he feels he has the monopoly.
#
Liz, wherever you are listening to this, Liz is his wife.
#
Well, she will now have to listen to this because it will be brought to her attention
#
when your wife is saying things about your husband.
#
Yeah, but listen, I have a very good relationship as well.
#
We wrote letters to each other.
#
It was a zona when we write letters to each other.
#
Long letters to each other on vacation.
#
We were on the theme of finding old papers.
#
In my dad's house, I found some old papers and among them,
#
I found a letter I had written when I was 19 years old.
#
Not to a lover, to a sort of a person, to a woman I knew.
#
And I don't think I had posted it because obviously that is why the letter still exists.
#
But it was like a five page letter, like five unskept pages.
#
And three of them were about a story I was planning to write.
#
And this would have been early 90s.
#
And the story was eerily similar to Parasite, the Korean film.
#
And not only was it eerily similar, in that letter,
#
I am talking about the different themes I am exploring and blah, blah, blah.
#
It was such a good letter that I read it and thought,
#
this was quite a long letter.
#
But what the fuck happened?
#
And I didn't remember that story.
#
I didn't remember the letter.
#
But it is my handwriting and it is my letter and it's very interesting.
#
And that got me to thinking that you are writing a long letter,
#
You are self-reflecting.
#
You are getting deep into something.
#
The thing is, when you sit down to write a 30 word email,
#
you know what those 30 words are.
#
When you sit down to write a five page letter,
#
you don't know what the five pages are.
#
And as it unfolds, you are unfolding and you are forming.
#
And it is a beautiful thing.
#
And I worry that we lose that,
#
which is why I keep telling my writing students,
#
do journaling, do journaling, do journaling.
#
I mean, just as a device for sort of,
#
tell me how that scene is for you,
#
because I am very keen on knowing the kind of letters you wrote to friends
#
and also the fact that,
#
and we will talk about your knowledge management later
#
and the kind of notes you take for work and all of that shit later,
#
but you are doing all of this,
#
you are collating all the information on one hand.
#
This is also information exchange partly and connecting partly.
#
So sort of tell me about that.
#
Has it had a habit that you felt helped you?
#
Is it something that you have continued?
#
Do you think it is a loss that more people don't do that anymore?
#
I remember writing a lot of letters,
#
also receiving letters,
#
and I have every one of my letters that I have received still with me.
#
That means if Akshay Mukul does biography on you, then everything is there.
#
And they are neatly sorted.
#
So it won't be like the box of Narsimh Rao's papers
#
that poor Mr. Sitapati had to just wade through.
#
It is very scary how you remember things from my episodes,
#
which I have long forgotten.
#
You will say something and I will be like,
#
oh, this looks familiar.
#
Oh, this is from my episode.
#
So they are neatly indexed.
#
I think my letters were largely information sharing,
#
But what I am doing, which is of interest to you.
#
So it is not just everything that I am doing.
#
I am doing this which will be of interest to you.
#
And the exchange of ideas which I think will form a conversation.
#
So I will start a string in that letter about something for you to continue.
#
And it may not happen in the reply.
#
It may happen three letters later.
#
So I find, I don't think it was very conscious at that time,
#
but I find when I read those letters, I don't have my version of it.
#
I only have what I have received.
#
It has sprinklings of what was contained in my letter.
#
So then I can almost reconstruct that conversation,
#
even though I only have one side of it.
#
And I wrote the other side of it, but I don't remember it well enough.
#
So I think that is a very interesting way of communicating.
#
I have done it for a very long time.
#
That I find things that might interest you, I will send it on to you.
#
So to me, it's my expression that you are important to me.
#
I am thinking about you.
#
And things that are happening to me remind me not of you as a person,
#
but of all the things that interest you and that make you.
#
So even people who I don't meet regularly,
#
if I find something that connects them to it, I'll forward it to them.
#
It might just be a thought. It might be an article I'm reading.
#
It might be an excerpt from some book.
#
It could be Oscar Wilde. It could be anything.
#
I'm reading it and it reminded me of you.
#
So I'll send that over.
#
And that's a practice I've continued for a very long time.
#
So when I'm reading, it's not just the words.
#
It's what makes me feel something about it.
#
And it could be people it connects to.
#
So that is how my letters also were.
#
That this is happening.
#
This is what I'm reading or this is what I'm doing.
#
It reminded me of X or Y or some event or something else.
#
So that was usually the correspondence.
#
And I don't write the law firm letters anymore.
#
But I still send out emails.
#
Most people don't even reply.
#
I don't even know if they read it.
#
My son doesn't. I know that.
#
You sent me a bunch of emails which I didn't read
#
because you were sending them to the wrong bloody email ID.
#
I blame Prem Panikkar for that.
#
Prem gave you that email ID.
#
And the second person to blame is Ashish Kulkarni
#
because he cc'd on all of those
#
and he didn't tell me that is not your email ID.
#
Listen, if you're cc'd on a mail,
#
you're not going to check if all the email IDs are accurate.
#
You're going to trust the person.
#
We will talk about Ashish Kulkarni later.
#
Ashish, if you're listening,
#
you're going to get away with just one mention.
#
You know, I think I've learned a lesson from you today
#
and I think it's a beautiful lesson
#
that when you think something may interest someone,
#
And there's so much more in that gesture
#
and that thing possibly being useful to them.
#
So thank you for that. That's very useful.
#
I was just telling my writing students yesterday
#
that I remember this really old project
#
which I'd completely forgotten
#
and I don't remember somebody on the group mentioned something
#
so I remembered that in 2009,
#
I met a Pakistani novelist called Shandana Minhas
#
in Dead India in Mysore.
#
and we said, let's write a book together.
#
It was an exchange of letters from a young Indian man
#
to a young Pakistani woman.
#
And we thought, you know, you build it up
#
and it will be a very cute love affair
#
which is based on love letters.
#
Except that we stopped after four or five chapters
#
because I think we were both fucking it up.
#
The voice wasn't working. Nothing was working.
#
I quickly went to my email and searched it
#
and I was like, I posted the first letter
#
that I wrote in that thing.
#
I posted it for my writing students, but for no one else.
#
But the rest of it is really embarrassing
#
and cringeworthy from both of us, I think.
#
And, but, you know, when you just said
#
that I, and that's a genre of literature, by the way,
#
apostolary, I think it's called apostolary novels,
#
which are consists just of letters
#
from one person to the other.
#
But I'm just thinking, why one person to the other?
#
Why not just from one person to everyone?
#
Or why not from everyone to one person
#
without, you know, like aapke jaise hai,
#
you have letters, everyone's written to you,
#
but not letters that you have written to them.
#
And just that, the letters of everyone to you,
#
actually, in a sense, reveals you also.
#
Without your letters being there.
#
And I think, you know, that's,
#
there's also a subtle exploration
#
to be made of that form.
#
I think, there may be, there may be.
#
Because the replies I got
#
contain elements of what I have said in my letters.
#
It's your journey also,
#
even though there's not a word by you.
#
And it has things in them
#
that are commenting on what I have done.
#
So if there's a letter that says,
#
you have written in so-and-so time,
#
or you mentioned so-and-so so often,
#
you know, what's the special relationship with that person?
#
So it then tells me that unknowingly,
#
I must have mentioned a person in a series of letters.
#
And so the person receiving the letter
#
must be feeling there's a special relationship
#
which I hadn't noticed myself.
#
And I didn't think that there was
#
any special relationship going on here.
#
So it's an insight into how others are perceiving
#
what I'm thinking and not articulating.
#
Sometimes, is that perception correct?
#
In the sense, you don't think
#
there's a special relationship with someone,
#
but you realize there is,
#
because somebody notices it.
#
So that was what I was trying to say when I said
#
the letter I got back made this observation
#
based on the four or five letters that had gone before.
#
And the observation was accurate.
#
Not that I had the crush for that woman,
#
but that A person seemed to turn up.
#
So Karthik turns up more than once.
#
Then you want to know what in a letter.
#
So I think that was the interesting part
#
of reading the reply to the letter,
#
is how they're reading a subtext
#
in a series of letters that has gone from here.
#
Someone should try a sort of genre like this.
#
Like at one point you said that when you were at home,
#
you said boys is equal to girls at home.
#
So tell me a little bit about that,
#
because on the one hand,
#
what you're really seeing all around you
#
is the typical male archetypes and female archetypes,
#
and I don't even know if I'm pronouncing archetypes properly.
#
But you're seeing all of that in play,
#
but at the same time you are cooking
#
and you're doing all of this.
#
In fact, you know, I got to tell my listeners
#
that when we were fixing up this recording in my home studio,
#
I mentioned to Murali that I'm alone at home at the moment,
#
so we'll order some food,
#
and he cooked a whole meal and got it for me,
#
and we had that before we started.
#
So a wonderful meal with ingredients, I couldn't guess,
#
So thank you for the meal,
#
but tell me more about sort of this,
#
because it seems to me that one,
#
that you are, you know,
#
doing household chores and errands
#
and cooking and all of that when you're a kid,
#
and we'll talk more about this in detail, I guess,
#
but at the same time in your marriage
#
and in the whole fatherhood experience,
#
you have also taken on a non-typical role.
#
Typically, in India, what is fatherhood?
#
You know, the man puts a seed,
#
and then he is provider,
#
and that is fatherhood in India.
#
And I think, first of all,
#
I think no one should have children,
#
but if they do have children,
#
then it's got to be a joint project.
#
But we'll come to that,
#
you know, just sort of starting with your whole sense of
#
Like, how the hell, at your age,
#
like in the sense, in the years that you were brought up,
#
how the hell do you own that self-image
#
that I'll do all the household chores,
#
I'll cook, I'll do this, I'll do that,
#
That was entirely my parents.
#
They made sure that the kids
#
did all the chores in the house.
#
washing the car, washing the scooter,
#
So we can fix bulbs, we can fix your
#
hot water, we can fix taps,
#
lights, everything in the house.
#
My one geyser is not working,
#
when the engine needs to be retuned,
#
we know when the piston needs to be changed,
#
we know when it's not firing right.
#
So all of the basic stuff,
#
both my parents were keen that
#
kids should be able to do it.
#
Also, I think we didn't have servants.
#
So, Amma would otherwise have to do everything.
#
tiring to get everything done.
#
So the best thing to do is to get the kids to do it.
#
So I think it's a combination of many things.
#
One, it's a lot of work
#
if only Amma had to do it,
#
and Appa wouldn't do anything at all.
#
So then the only thing he could
#
claim to help is to get the kids to do it.
#
I think there was genuinely
#
their desire to make sure that
#
the kids learnt life skills.
#
So that was the second one.
#
I think it was to keep us busy.
#
Or else the kids would annoy us.
#
So get them to do stuff.
#
we would get 10 kilos of rice.
#
Take out the pebbles from it.
#
That will take you many hours.
#
So parents can have a nap.
#
And you don't hassle them in the afternoon.
#
You give them a task like this.
#
To do the wheat, then do the ragi,
#
then your vacation will be over.
#
So it was doing many things.
#
Keeping the kids occupied,
#
teaching them some life skills,
#
and also helping Amma about the house.
#
And who else would do it otherwise?
#
we had servants. We had no servants.
#
So if you had to go and get milk,
#
you have to go get milk. Appa was not going to do it.
#
And Amma had enough chores.
#
So the kids would go in the morning to get milk.
#
You have to get ration.
#
The only day you could do it was on a Saturday.
#
Because we were going to school the other day
#
and Sunday it's not open.
#
So most of Saturday would be in just going and getting ration.
#
you have to go to ration because that chap
#
being the mean guy he is,
#
he won't give you everything on that one day.
#
So if you get rice today,
#
he won't also give you the sugar and the kerosene.
#
He will only give you one.
#
Because he will have separate lines for each one of those things.
#
And by the time you've finished with one line,
#
You just don't have it in you to stand
#
for another 3 hours after lunch.
#
you are at the ration shop.
#
Because you only get one
#
In fact you are entitled to 6 or 7 or how many ever it is.
#
You get sugar, rice, wheat,
#
kerosene. Those are the four things
#
And then you have to take it to the mill.
#
So the day you do this,
#
you go home, have lunch,
#
and in the afternoon you take it to be milled to atta.
#
Or you get masala piece
#
So who else would do it?
#
And I'm just thinking that you know we talk
#
about wars and we say so many lives
#
were lost in so many wars.
#
People argue that Hitler
#
killed so many or Stalin killed so many.
#
And I'm thinking fine, you're looking at a catastrophe
#
like that and looking at the loss of lives.
#
an unseen version of it when you think
#
of the loss of lives waiting in queues.
#
I don't think it's so hard for us.
#
who's losing a day's wage standing in queue
#
And everybody's losing 3 hours of their life in a line.
#
And you're losing 9 hours of your life if you have to
#
get all the ration and you're standing in the line multiple times.
#
And all these hours accumulate
#
and they become days and they become weeks and they become
#
years and then you're dead and all this time is just gone.
#
It's a loss to our GDP.
#
I was going at a poetic angle.
#
But it's a real thing. I think that was
#
the reason, the 3 reasons why
#
we ended up doing a lot of these shows
#
about the house. And our
#
parents are very clear that there's no difference between boys and
#
girls. So you can't say
#
girls do this and boys do that.
#
There was nothing like that.
#
We won't help mom in the kitchen. No chance.
#
were there? Only two of us, brother and I.
#
But we were only a year or so apart.
#
So we were almost the same age.
#
So we didn't have any choice on any of these things.
#
And it was not negotiation.
#
It's not like me and my son now.
#
So he doesn't get a choice.
#
We were told you do this, you do this.
#
There was never a question of
#
Why can't someone else do it?
#
You were told to do it and you did it.
#
And we didn't see any other way.
#
But what did you do in the queue?
#
Would you read a book or would you just stand
#
Stare at the place around
#
and just stand in the queue.
#
Bored as hell standing in the queue.
#
Would you talk to the people around you?
#
Not particularly. Information exchange.
#
And what do you talk to them about
#
Usually, I was the only
#
They would usually be slightly older kids
#
or adults in the queue.
#
So I often found that there was nobody
#
That's also an interesting ecosystem.
#
Someone should write a book.
#
Ration shop queues are very interesting.
#
I have plenty to say about it.
#
You have two kinds of people.
#
who can't live without the ration.
#
We could live without the
#
took the ration in those years
#
at least. Later I don't think we
#
took our quota of ration. But those were the
#
early years when we actually
#
took quota. We thought we were middle class.
#
in that ration shop queue.
#
One, the poor who needed it.
#
And the second, who didn't want to
#
They were the aspirational middle class.
#
it was useful to them and they couldn't have
#
They would also buy stuff from the retail
#
store, right? So they would go and buy
#
shampoo. My dad would go and buy tataka shampoo.
#
Some things you couldn't get. So for example
#
The difference between the ration shop kerosene
#
and outside kerosene was severely
#
marked up. So it was a big difference.
#
So it didn't make actually sense to go and buy
#
kerosene from the outside.
#
So you would buy kerosene from here. But who
#
would buy the kerosene? People
#
who didn't have the gas.
#
So again you will see that divide.
#
It's a socio-economic divide
#
the ration, who are the two kinds of people
#
we started you told me your hourly rate.
#
immediately apologized for taking up
#
an entire day of yours because I cannot afford
#
Tell me about the other stuff you did.
#
You were part of the NCC also.
#
So the plan was NDA ka exam
#
likhenge. And mil jayega.
#
now where you have all these coaching classes and all
#
that, tab aisa kuch nahi tha.
#
The only coaching was for IIT.
#
And if you went to a tuition
#
class that meant you are an idiot.
#
Only stupid people went to a tuition class.
#
That was the thinking in those days.
#
In my time as well, yeah.
#
So nobody did any preparation for NDA.
#
At least in Bangalore there wasn't. Maybe
#
there was a quota like place, I don't know.
#
But Bangalore mein aisa kuch tha nahi.
#
So I said, theek hai, wo to karna hai.
#
some family in the services.
#
I had an uncle at that time
#
An uncle subsequently who retired as a left hand colonel.
#
I have a cousin now who is a Brigadier.
#
So there is some connection
#
with the armed services in the family.
#
And it was an acceptable career option.
#
from where we lived, came to me and said,
#
So 2-3 of us, we said, okay, we will see.
#
as much as I liked them.
#
So I made 2 promotions in my first year,
#
2 promotions in my second year.
#
We had some fantastic camps.
#
And this was the Armored Corps, so we didn't
#
Our camps were at Ahmednagar, the Armored Corps
#
center in school. So we actually
#
fire them, understand how
#
they work. You have fired a tank?
#
Yes, I went inside. I drove it.
#
or was it Karnataka Day, I can't
#
remember, or Army Day, I can't remember.
#
One of the parades that we had in Bangalore,
#
I was leading the parade
#
in a half track, which is kind of a
#
So, yeah, it was great fun.
#
And I really enjoyed it because
#
it was towards a career in the
#
services. It was a good introduction to the
#
services. We were treated quite
#
well when we went to the
#
Armored Corps center in school.
#
treated like the poor recruits and sometimes
#
like young officers. So it was kind of
#
I liked the responsibility,
#
taking care of the troops.
#
I was head of the camp.
#
yeah, so it was great fun.
#
You had done an advanced leadership course also.
#
You know, it was supposed to be
#
for the services selection board interview.
#
So the plan was, I go from Bangalore.
#
Bombay to see my aunt and uncle.
#
And then from here, it's a 24-hour
#
train journey to Allahabad.
#
My uncle promised that the ticket
#
on a suitcase in a third-class
#
compartment for more than 24 hours
#
from Bombay to Allahabad.
#
And you were awake throughout?
#
Obviously, if you go to
#
sleep, where will you sleep?
#
Correct. You get off the suitcase, somebody
#
will take away your suitcase. A rhetorical question.
#
you don't have to move. You have to sit on the suitcase
#
for 24 hours and reach there.
#
It's a good discipline.
#
interview. It was a 3-day interview.
#
center and it goes on for 3 full
#
So you enter the center
#
exercises and evaluations
#
day after day after day.
#
And every day they eliminate.
#
So I stayed for 3 full days.
#
the chaps in that interview,
#
I remember distinctly, his name is also
#
in my diary. He's a guy called Navneet
#
Vats. He was from Chandigarh.
#
And I remember reading in a newspaper
#
maybe on Twitter, I don't know, or somewhere
#
soldiers who have lost their life
#
in the line of duty. And they'd shown
#
And I remembered him. And I went back and
#
his name and address on it. And I had written
#
letters to him. After we had
#
come back. What had you written
#
That I have come back from the camp. Bangalore.
#
And this was his whole drama.
#
you get kicked out as soon as you're out,
#
right? Unfortunately, there was a curfew
#
down. So these guys had kicked me out
#
of the camp. And I couldn't go anywhere.
#
Because there was a curfew.
#
So from the SSB centre to the station
#
And you're not meant to be on the streets.
#
stole a bib of somebody
#
gave me the bib and sneaked me
#
back into the SSB centre for a day.
#
And therefore, I had to
#
hide in the place, the dorm
#
so that I could go eat and come back with somebody
#
else. So it was like your
#
You were the scene in the unseen.
#
You were shooting a scat.
#
Everything's coming back to this.
#
was like what you'd see in the POW camps, right?
#
But anyway, so the next day we couldn't
#
stay because that whole
#
and a new batch was going to come in. So fourth
#
day was the last day. And the
#
by a policeman who said,
#
I don't know if you've been taken by a curfew.
#
I said, I know, but where do I go?
#
He said, where are you going?
#
I said, I have to go to Trivandrum.
#
He said, the trainways are closed.
#
So will you stay somewhere?
#
a policeman to the railway station.
#
running. No trains are running and I have no ticket
#
and I have no money. It's a metaphor for something, but
#
I don't know what. So I had
#
a ticket for a train that is not running
#
to even call my folks at home to say
#
yeh crisis ho raha hai.
#
next day I'm lying on the platform,
#
after that train start,
#
but there is so much chaos because
#
trains have stopped all over the country, right?
#
is not as simple as just turning on a
#
switch. It now has to be reorganized
#
so that trains get to the appropriate place
#
to start the schedule again.
#
So it's going to random places.
#
So the only train from Allahabad
#
going down south was going to
#
So the station master was my friend now.
#
I said, I don't have a ticket.
#
So he wrote me a paper because
#
in those days you could not even get a refund on a ticket
#
unless you went back to the place
#
where it was issued. Oh my god.
#
in very awkward circumstances
#
which was not entitled to a refund because
#
I didn't claim it 24 hours before the train
#
So not entitled to a refund. But the guy
#
took pity on me because I didn't have money and I looked
#
gave me a paper. So I got on to the train.
#
Then I had a negotiation with the
#
who then also became my friend.
#
So halfway through to Tirupati, he told
#
go to the other train and that goes to Trivandrum.
#
So we did full research.
#
We didn't have to do anything else.
#
So I looked at the Indian
#
in Allahabad and figured
#
this out. Explained it to the train
#
guy on the way to Tirupati.
#
Got off, changed platforms,
#
got on to another train, eventually
#
knows I'm coming to Trivandrum.
#
So from the station I walked
#
into some relatives house.
#
They didn't know me from Adam.
#
Got inside and got fed.
#
your first meal? In three days.
#
I didn't have money. Because
#
this was not anticipated.
#
And the choice was either I could make a
#
trunk call to my parents
#
or I could get a cup of tea
#
and last me for how many hour days.
#
So that was it. You got a cup of tea?
#
Obviously. Rather than call my parents.
#
And parents weren't worried.
#
Because there didn't know any crisis.
#
That's how I got to Trivandrum
#
eventually and did the rock climbing
#
and whatever course. And you were there
#
in time for the course? Got a
#
day late. That was also a drama.
#
The course started the day before.
#
But because I reached that
#
night, I could only get there by bus
#
the next morning. So by the
#
So these are competitive courses.
#
on which I could have scored points. So I was
#
turn out and drill. Which I was
#
quite good at. So I was already
#
behind by about 20 points out of 200 or
#
there. Didn't even have
#
And they said today is the firing
#
truck and went to the range and shot.
#
didn't come anything but first
#
in every one of the events after
#
that. And you won the whole thing?
#
Except the last one which was
#
event which was the following day. I was
#
shattered. It was a 10k run.
#
at camp. Gone straight to
#
the shooting. Not eaten that day.
#
activity I think. Had dinner.
#
Woke up the next morning.
#
I think I came third in the 10k
#
race. What was the time?
#
I don't remember. It was not relevant to time.
#
So it was just first, second or third.
#
But I can still do 10k now
#
under an hour. I do 53 minutes.
#
I'm sure I could do it faster then.
#
So after that when I went to Bangalore I wrote a letter
#
That all this happened to me.
#
And then he died. He died many years later.
#
But he went to India after that.
#
his daughter joined the OTA.
#
I read the news somewhere. What's the OTA?
#
The Officers Training Academy in Chennai.
#
His daughter is called Inayat.
#
I saw a news clipping somewhere.
#
If Inayat is listening to this
#
happy memories of Navneet Vats
#
because he gave you the paper and took you inside.
#
He was a really sweet guy. I was really fond of him.
#
It was three days, made us really close.
#
NCC and wanting to join
#
the services. I did it twice.
#
And as luck would have it both times I went to
#
Allahabad. And the first time
#
this happened and the second time
#
I didn't get in either.
#
So that was the end of the career in the
#
armed forces. If ever I had one.
#
And I'm just thinking you know as time passes
#
of lose which is this whole
#
illusion of immortality.
#
That when we are young we
#
think that we are going to live forever. We think
#
everyone around us is going to live forever.
#
I remember when I was young I used
#
with anyone around me who showed
#
an interest in reading or writing
#
because mere man mein yeh tha ki yeh mere
#
pehle booker prize na jeethe.
#
And the point is none of them became writers.
#
everything in your head. And
#
then as you grow older you realize that
#
everyone is frail. Everyone is fucked up.
#
Everyone is winging it. And
#
everyone is going to die. And then some of them start
#
dying one by one. And you're like what the fuck happened?
#
is completely gone. And then you're
#
looking for other illusions
#
to get by in a sense. I'm not
#
being very articulate with this.
#
As you can see it's a slow day for me. But
#
it's a good day to be a listener therefore.
#
I didn't think I was immortal. I
#
thought I was indestructible.
#
And I said to you then that
#
there was a thought I'll come back to.
#
The learning from all of
#
this is self sufficiency.
#
Ki bhai hum manage karlenge yaar.
#
I don't need dad to drop me
#
to school. I don't need someone to pick me up from
#
the airport or from the railway
#
station. Curfew me daal to
#
theek hai ho jayega. You know train
#
nahi hai toh ho jayega. So the sense
#
hassle me to an extent where it
#
You know, traffic hai toh hai.
#
It is happening around me. It is not happening
#
That I learnt very early.
#
to this day, I don't fear the fact that
#
I'm going to die. I fear the fact that
#
it might be painful and slow and long.
#
That is the only thing.
#
You would fear it if you knew for certain
#
it's going to happen in exactly 10 minutes.
#
Not at all. Not at all.
#
I have no problems with it. I'm ready today.
#
Ki abhi idhar ho jaye toh aacha hai.
#
Okay, let me ask you a question I ask
#
at parties. I'm very boring at parties.
#
As you can make out by now, I
#
ask all these really serious questions and people
#
get sad and they start crying. But
#
here is my question to you. And it's a question
#
therefore also for all of my listeners.
#
I want all of you to think about it.
#
Which is that I will give you a scenario
#
and then I will give you two questions.
#
And the scenario is that there is
#
straight for planet Earth.
#
And it is going to hit us at a particular
#
point in time. There is scientific
#
consensus on this. Everybody gets it.
#
There is nothing we can do. We will all die.
#
Now two questions. Question number one
#
is it will happen 24 hours
#
from now. What will you do? Question
#
number two is that it will happen
#
What will you do? Nothing changes.
#
For both? For both. You will still
#
do this freaking podcast for another 5 hours
#
if you have 24 hours to go. I've written my obituary.
#
his iPad around. He's showing me his fucking obituary.
#
Will you send it to me? Can I put
#
it up? I don't think you should put it up. You can
#
read it. Okay, I can't read it
#
out though. No, you can't read it out though. Okay.
#
This is how I'm going to die.
#
It's a picture that's written
#
in words because I can't paint.
#
With your fantasy here.
#
So I will make this happen?
#
So Roshan Abbas introduced me to this great book
#
by David Sinclair called Lifespan and it starts
#
off with something that is
#
absolutely utterly true
#
which is that you might think
#
you will die happily and peacefully
#
but the moment of death is always
#
always terribly painful
#
even if you die in your sleep
#
all your internal organs are failing one by one
#
and it is incredibly painful
#
and perhaps one way out is if you're in a plane crash
#
it's sudden you don't know it
#
but otherwise there is no getting away
#
live the happiest life where you take
#
pleasure in the small joys or you could
#
be the biggest asshole out there causing pain
#
to everyone. We will all die the same way.
#
It will all be terrible at the end and it will all
#
Yeah, but if I think about it now
#
it doesn't really help my cause
#
next year, in two weeks
#
what's happening perhaps no longer
#
than today. But if you had 24 hours you wouldn't be
#
doing this podcast right? It would just be silly.
#
I would absolutely not change it.
#
I would absolutely not change it. Why?
#
Because it would never release. What is
#
won't you be with your wife and your son?
#
Assuming they want to be with you. The podcast will release
#
why won't you? You are not dying right?
#
I am the one dying. No, the comet is coming sir
#
we are all dying. But we will release it in 24 hours
#
both of us will do it together.
#
How much effort is there? My editor Gaurav Chintamani
#
won't do it because he also has to spend
#
time with his family. I'll learn a new skill
#
editing a podcast before I die.
#
You are too much. What's the problem?
#
fantasies, last minute wishes
#
that the sale is going to end tomorrow
#
I have no such problems.
#
I have no such problems.
#
And the world is going to end. What will you do
#
with it. It's not finding external
#
pleasures. That's the other realization I've got
#
also feel the good things
#
So we think of sensitive
#
only for the negative stuff
#
that he feels pain more.
#
pleasure, you also feel love, you also feel
#
the other things more. You know what?
#
I'll tell you something. We take the other things for granted
#
and a couple of things. One is
#
when I was a professional poker player
#
in fact one of the things I realized was
#
that there is something called loss aversion
#
we are hardwired for it. And loss aversion
#
basically is that you are more
#
sensitive to losses than to victories
#
and what that basically means in a poker context
#
I would get at losing one lakh in a session
#
is way more than the joy I would get
#
at winning one lakh in a session.
#
Because you immediately normalize a profit
#
you believe you deserve it, you're kind of happy with it
#
in the same way that we normalize and take for granted
#
all the good things that happen all around
#
us which I always try to remind myself
#
of ki air conditioning hai
#
fold your palms in gratitude
#
when it happens we amplify it
#
and blow it out of proportion and feel aggrieved
#
all of that. So in that
#
sense I think you know even with
#
technology like you know so many
#
people will crib about this
#
or that and small things going wrong
#
and I'm like you know like everyone
#
more fortunate than the king of England from
#
a hundred years ago because you have so
#
much, kuch comparison hi nahi hai
#
we are living in an incredible age
#
not all of us which is why the caveat
#
everyone listening to this but if you're listening to this
#
you are so freaking fortunate you're
#
terms of what you have but we
#
normalize all of that and we are complaining
#
like you know Kartik ka
#
spouse to Murli hai and all of that.
#
I feel the gratitude and I've always felt it for a very
#
the fact that I'm self sufficient
#
I can find my pleasures
#
and if I want to feel an emotion deeply
#
I know where to find it. So if
#
I feel a little melancholy
#
I'm not talking depression here just melancholy
#
which is a common thing to happen I'm feeling sad
#
I actually want to feel
#
it intensely and I know how to enhance
#
it. How do you enhance it?
#
or listen to a piece of
#
brings it out that you can
#
the last time it happened to
#
me I watched Andhi the movie
#
I mean it's a sensitively
#
about people who love each other
#
understand the realities of their circumstances
#
pain and treasure the time they have together
#
but overall it is still
#
can't have each other forever
#
to me that really accentuates
#
the same thing with any other emotion
#
I don't go and break something
#
that's just not me nobody's heard me shout
#
when he was a little kid used to be scared
#
when I actually lower my voice
#
the best threats are delivered
#
and they really get home
#
and if you want somebody to listen to your
#
drop it a couple of notes
#
it can be really threatening
#
why are you breaking it?
#
I am speaking very softly
#
thing you said shout it is unrelated to this
#
but you said shout so you know
#
trigger chalga mere mind mein ek keyword
#
click ho gaya aur waha se unconnected
#
jaga ja rahe hai you know we were at that
#
event together where I was in conversation
#
with Shreyaana and Aditi
#
and at the end of that a bunch of people came to
#
me to say talk about the show and there were listeners
#
and all of that and one of them
#
was someone I think she was there with her husband
#
and she'd heard every episode or whatever
#
and she said I have a question for you
#
have you ever shouted at someone
#
theek hai toh in that moment
#
toh has liye ki you know I am not
#
the person on the show and all of that
#
and you know in that moment toh has liye
#
baad mein soch raha tha ki yaar ye kya kya hai maine
#
ki ye jo banda hai na reasonable
#
banda hai, chillata nahi hai
#
politely baat karta hai all of which is true
#
other things to me you know and that
#
that is not there and I remember I was in
#
like I was in a deep funk recently
#
and I was chatting with my
#
friend Shruti Rajgopalan and she
#
was doing amateur therapy on
#
me without calling it that and she was kind
#
of telling me that you know your problem is that
#
you are always the adult in the room
#
you are in the show, you are
#
listening, koi kuch bhi baakega
#
not in this conversation but koi kuch
#
bhi baakega I can see sometimes you'll disagree
#
but either you'll say it politely or you won't
#
say it at all and you're the adult in the
#
room and you're restraining yourself and in every
#
context not just the show
#
the toll that it's taking
#
don't know why you said shout and I just
#
you might think you're the only one, others might think
#
you're the only one thinking that way but it's true of
#
we don't have and I say
#
and I try to teach that to my son
#
at the spine, response is
#
the reflex is happening at the spine
#
thoughtfulness is happening at the brain
#
so even as a kid he was taught to
#
count to five before speaking
#
doesn't matter what it is
#
just count to five, you don't have to instantly
#
as soon as the full stop is you don't have to start your next
#
give it a pause, count to five
#
it's a part of I think both being
#
an adult and an introvert is that
#
we don't feel the urge to
#
add to the noise, to add to the conversation
#
we need to process it a little bit
#
and that has stayed with me
#
that I can practice it always
#
with me, that if you can do this
#
then you are the adult in the room
#
it's basically preparing you to be
#
and I think we should all learn to follow it
#
but if I were to follow it
#
I would never say anything
#
because everything is futile
#
so nothing is necessary
#
if it's not necessary, don't do it
#
but on the point of melancholy
#
that you can listen to it
#
I want to feel it fully
#
why in the hell is the whole world worried about it
#
I know we will do a lot of recommendations through this conversation
#
so this ghazal is a really good one
#
there are many versions of it
#
Dil Hi To Hai Sangho Dil
#
we will link it from the show notes
#
there is a whole lot of
#
whose renditions though
#
and the Ranjish Hi Sahi is
#
really melancholic of loss
#
people who are not there
#
person I could have been
#
so there is a very nice one
#
I have quite a lot of music
#
I have books I can go back to
#
somebody asked me this yesterday in fact on my writing group
#
that what do you read when you are in a funk
#
and I was like I don't have any attention span
#
when I am in a funk but what do you read?
#
I actually find him insufferable
#
I understand why you find him
#
it is the beauty of being frivolous
#
you have to appreciate it
#
for that he wasn't writing
#
he was trying to be frivolous
#
and that was what he was famous for
#
for being gay and frivolous
#
and to me that is the thing that
#
he is going through so much in his life
#
and be praised for mocking
#
why are you smiling so much?
#
I don't do the soapy stuff
#
I mean in the Oscar Wilde context
#
this being serious literature
#
both popular and serious
#
not many people can claim to be that
#
so I go back to usually the classics
#
but I think my identification
#
the feeling of melancholy
#
I think people mistake melancholy for sad
#
I think they are all very different things
#
my old friend Sanjeev Nayak
#
if I remember correctly
#
introduced me to this lovely French word
#
a certain kind of melancholy
#
and there is really no other word for it
#
but it is a delicious kind of melancholy
#
where you can kind of revel in it as well
#
a slightly grey version of nostalgia
#
yeah and if I may think aloud
#
but this kind of melancholy
#
is a form of self love also
#
that's how I think of it
#
it happens in certain circumstances
#
sometimes you may not be able to change it
#
feeling it strongly and accepting it
#
that space where you are disappointed
#
to the time you get to accepting it
#
the space in between I think of as melancholy
#
that you have warm fuzzy feeling
#
if you slightly make it little colder
#
than that, then that becomes
#
that's really fascinating and you know before we go into the break
#
I'll ask a question about again
#
something that you mentioned
#
you reminded me of something else and why not talk about that now
#
which is you spoke about how
#
people will have a public self, a private self
#
I'll look for the twitter thread if I can find it
#
but there was a thread which had basically done a graph
#
of how many people secrets keep
#
and the first category there was
#
secrets you keep from everybody
#
and if I remember correctly the average number there was 4
#
and I thought about myself and I said
#
that many things that I will never tell anyone
#
including on my show where otherwise I am
#
utterly naked as it were
#
and speak without a filter
#
but there are certain things which won't even make it there
#
self, tell me a little bit more
#
about the private self and the secret self
#
I think the difference between
#
somebody if push comes to shove
#
things that at least for me
#
not embarrass me in front of others
#
embarrass me for myself
#
make me feel lesser about myself
#
doing as well as I should
#
I am not a good role model to my son for example
#
the aspect of me that I feel I should do
#
better to be a better role model
#
that would be something I am not willing to discuss
#
and it's really conflicts
#
within so those will be the kind of
#
thing that I think I would think of as
#
the thing that really annoy me
#
interesting and I am wondering if
#
are often a secret even from
#
themselves like there is
#
this fascinating book I talk about called Everybody Lies
#
by Seth Stephens DeVidovitz
#
where he looked at search terms
#
I think of that as private though
#
so let's say for example if I have
#
a kinky side to me that would be private
#
that wouldn't be secret
#
as I see it but you would share it with someone
#
you are sharing it right
#
when you are doing a search somebody is seeing it
#
there is that somebody will know
#
but somebody will see it so I accept
#
where does your wife know your full kinky self
#
that's why it's private no
#
wife doesn't know somebody else may know
#
in the classification of
#
public, private and secret
#
okay for me actually the only secret
#
private to sab main show pe daal deta ho
#
so your work of fiction will be the secret life
#
of Amit Verma no no but I will tell you something
#
on my laptop right now and I am not going to take you to that
#
window but I have actually over the last
#
chat GPT to write some 70,000
#
words of erotica customized
#
to you know just the way I like
#
it and obviously there are filters
#
so you can always say I am sorry apologies
#
but there are ways around that and I have become
#
really good at finding those ways around that
#
I mean basically tip number one is use euphemisms
#
and avoid certain hot words
#
and key number two is that
#
don't tell it what you wanted
#
to say take it to the edge of that
#
spot where it's autocomplete on
#
steroids will take it into that
#
but yeah I think for me a lot
#
of the stuff in everybody lies was stuff that
#
people would consider private
#
and would consider secret and not
#
private but it's very interesting that you should say
#
I mean if you have a kink you will share it with someone if
#
because there's a community of
#
kink right I mean I'm just assuming that
#
all of these deviants if you can call them
#
that I don't like to call them that
#
still want to know that there are others
#
like them it's like the mutants
#
right but it's not exactly a community
#
because they won't participate because they'll be
#
too scared and embarrassed to participate but
#
you know there's another like you
#
you know there's another like you so in that
#
sense you are sharing you are participating
#
you know there are more like you
#
you don't feel like you're the only one
#
but a secret is where you can't even do that
#
because nobody's sharing it
#
and you spoke about how all the secrets
#
embarrass you and make you think less of yourself
#
non-secrets embarrass you and make you think less of yourself
#
like the more self-reflection
#
I do the less I like myself
#
yes but you're willing to talk about it to somebody else
#
that makes it private so it's the consequence of that
#
what I'm saying is the not
#
liking yourself is not exclusive to
#
yeah so the test for me
#
things that make me feel less about myself
#
and I'm unwilling to talk about or share with anyone
#
private is some what makes you think
#
less of yourself which you could
#
occasionally makes me feel less about
#
myself I could do better with
#
what other people are saying
#
connected to what they're
#
saying which I find very difficult to do
#
not multitask, understand the
#
words, understand the emotion
#
but I don't feel the connection
#
compassion but I can't have empathy
#
empathy means feeling the pain
#
I don't feel the pain but you know
#
the other person is in pain so you're willing to help them and that's
#
compassion for me it's compassion
#
so I don't have empathy
#
and so I find it's a bit wanting
#
you have compassion for Ashish
#
I have compassion for a lot of people
#
thing that I really feel
#
but I've accepted that I can't do it
#
the things I can't do I can't do
#
so you have to understand
#
I love you but there is nothing
#
there won't be this expression
#
of joy and warmth and sunshine
#
so those are the aspects where I think
#
you know it's a struggle for me
#
but I'm also willing to live without it
#
ke nahi hoga to nahi hoga
#
so there's a list of 100 things to do
#
this is not on the top 10
#
so you know there's a great thought I think
#
one of the four horsemen
#
had it I think Christopher Hitchens had it
#
where he spoke about atheism
#
and he said everyone who thinks he's a believer
#
is believing in one religion
#
they're an atheist for all other religions right
#
so an interesting way to step back and look at it
#
and I'm thinking if all of us
#
or the other if you zoom out enough
#
all of us are sociopaths
#
now sociopathy is a medical condition
#
your amygdala is damaged and therefore you don't feel empathy
#
it's a biological condition sociopaths get a bad rap
#
but sociopaths are over
#
represented in prisons for example
#
and apparently in consulting
#
and banking and politics
#
especially and I wrote a column about this once
#
I called a couple of people non-sociopaths
#
but they turned out to be sociopaths
#
because at that time I didn't know better
#
and I sometimes think about this like I'll ask myself
#
am I a sociopath because
#
I mean there are people I know I care for
#
but there are many people I don't care for
#
like I just don't feel it
#
and I think about this as sort of
#
you know W.E.H. Leckie's concept
#
of the expanding circle which no doubt
#
you're familiar with because I've said it on many episodes
#
and you heard everything
#
where just briefly for listeners who might not be aware of it
#
Leckie was a 19th century
#
philosopher who came up with the concept of the expanding
#
circle where he said that your
#
circle of moral consideration
#
begins really small with your family
#
and then your tribe and then your
#
you know people in the immediate surroundings
#
and over humankind it's kind of
#
expanded more and more till it
#
can even include all of humanity
#
and Peter Singer argued it will one day include
#
except that at some level I'm deeply skeptical
#
about how much it can expand
#
like some could argue to the Dunbar number
#
150 numbers which is the optimal tribe size
#
back in the day is the limit for that
#
that is how many names we can remember
#
and so maybe it doesn't go beyond that
#
but also I think a lot of empathy
#
aur hum sab ek hai and all that
#
that beyond the point we don't really care
#
and then I think what kicks in is
#
that it is okay not to care
#
that if my amygdala was damaged
#
and I didn't feel fine even
#
I think that would be fine because what matters
#
what matters is how I relate to the world
#
and how I treat the world and the normative
#
kya terms use kar raha hu main
#
the way I live my life the rules I make for myself
#
you know retreat other people well
#
be kind listen all these things matter much
#
more than actually feeling
#
anything and the way you are
#
expressing it seems to be that
#
that you have a set of rules
#
of how to behave and then
#
it doesn't matter empathy bolo compassion bolo
#
kya bolo it doesn't matter
#
I think we have weaponized empathy and
#
weaponized some of these words
#
I was having a conversation with somebody else we both
#
know shiva and we're talking about
#
there seems to be this signaling
#
almost virtue signaling that
#
I am empathetic I am humble
#
but you can't be that all the time to everything
#
that I've accepted that
#
there will be phases when
#
I don't feel for certain
#
you know tiger dying somewhere
#
I don't feel it and I'm willing
#
to acknowledge that I don't feel it
#
and it's okay with me it doesn't mean
#
that I don't care for the Jews
#
who were exterminated because
#
that what aboutry doesn't get me at all
#
so I'm okay with it this is what I
#
I don't feel for certain
#
things and I don't feel the need to explain
#
it why do you not feel for this
#
and why do you feel for them
#
feel it I don't express it
#
so I don't feel the need to always
#
so that acceptance I got
#
I think 10 years ago so I got
#
that acceptance that we are like this
#
growth is not one of my values
#
deck of cards have different
#
life values written on them
#
and the challenge is to identify
#
and it's a deck of cards about 50 of them
#
so it has loyalty humility this
#
and it's a really really difficult process
#
to come up with your top 5 and you got to rank them
#
and they don't tell you how to
#
see the top 10 are easy
#
then the difficulty arises
#
and so I created a scenario
#
for those conflicting values
#
in each one of them and eliminated them
#
so if you say for example
#
honesty is an important thing
#
and the one you're comparing
#
then you create a scenario which says
#
choice A will make you happy
#
choice 2 will make you honest
#
which one will you pick
#
then you eliminate the other one
#
happiness and it's very interesting
#
that like I'm just thinking aloud
#
and I'll let you continue after this
#
but I'm just thinking aloud and I'm thinking that
#
happiness relates to oneself
#
honesty relates to others
#
that you're normatively honest with others and it relates
#
to oneself in the sense that then you can feel
#
pride your ego can be massaged
#
I'll give you a different one
#
you have to pick what did you choose
#
is your wife going to listen to this
#
no but I'm being honest here
#
difficult decision so these are the difficult
#
decisions right it's very easy to say
#
you know obviously I love my wife
#
but you're not being honest to yourself
#
and the exercise with the value
#
with yourself because it tells you who you
#
me who I am so I'll send you a link
#
and I'll post it in the show notes also
#
there's this great twitter
#
writes about sex and all of that I think she's
#
worked as an escort and she's also incredibly
#
good with data and just
#
a fantastic mind I love
#
a newsletter as well and maybe I should invite her
#
on the show someday and
#
she built this site which carries out
#
this experience where one after
#
the other you're supposed to choose between two things
#
and gradually and many of these
#
choices will come up multiple times
#
and gradually an order emerges
#
and I remember sending a screenshot of that
#
my three of my friends Narendra
#
group of food lovers and
#
telling them that I'm sorry I have to do this
#
because one of the choices was
#
you know close friends or whatever
#
and the other choice was air conditioning
#
air conditioning beats friends
#
yeah I mean sorry because you know
#
obviously it's not necessarily the case
#
but like some of them will be right thumb
#
versus good orgasms randomly
#
for some people that's a real choice
#
but this exercise was serious
#
and the only way you can test it is
#
by taking it to the extreme
#
otherwise it's not a choice
#
what did it reveal to you about yourself
#
all of these things I think that
#
what I value more than other things
#
that I was willing to negotiate
#
honesty, integrity, loyalty
#
make me seem like a hedonist creature
#
but at the same time those values that you mentioned
#
are baked into you anyway right
#
I know but I was willing to trade them
#
as if you're making a Faustian bargain
#
but then how do you define happiness
#
it's like an apology to everything else
#
shayad baaki sab karunga
#
so shayad is your escape route for anything
#
what came surprisingly low
#
friendship was bottom half of the five
#
but they were not in like bottom half of the fifty
#
all that didn't come in the top ten
#
didn't come in the top ten
#
they were quite interesting months
#
I don't remember it was a long time ago
#
I did it about ten years ago
#
I should go back and do it again
#
but it was a super exercise
#
I'm sure abhi toh websites may
#
but I found doing it with cards was
#
like you're literally moving
#
fidelity aside literally
#
putting one over the other
#
fidelity I've held for a long time so it was not a surprise
#
remarkably in law school
#
I remember the conversation I remember the people as well
#
I was saying just because I like
#
strawberry ice cream doesn't mean I shouldn't eat vanilla
#
I like one genre of music doesn't mean I shouldn't
#
like another genre of music
#
and the way I relate to individuals
#
so one is not replacing the other
#
one is not threatened by the other
#
I'm just a different person to each one of you
#
one feel threatened by the other
#
and therefore this whole sense of
#
being faithful, being loyal
#
all of that just puts pressure on people
#
to disconnect from whom they are
#
so I don't get to express that side of me
#
with another person because X
#
feels threatened by that
#
other person or the other relationship
#
so I felt strongly about it for a long long time
#
and then of course there's Javed Akhtar
#
who says, humse nahi hoga kisi
#
oh he says that, ok what's
#
so fidelity comes fairly
#
in that sense of fidelity as in
#
matrimonial fidelity comes fairly low on that
#
list, there's that Vikram Seth
#
poem, all you who sleep tonight far from the ones you love
#
no hand to left or right and emptiness above
#
know that you aren't alone
#
the whole world shares your fears
#
some tears, some for two nights or one
#
and some for all the years
#
so you're talking about multiple genres of music
#
some people don't even have one genre of music
#
but anyway that is the Indian incel problem
#
no I get what you're saying
#
for granted, including institutions
#
like marriage, including ways
#
of relating to each other
#
and I think we just take it for granted
#
and fall into it by inertia
#
and we don't think hard enough about
#
ki yeh hai kya, what is the concept
#
what are we doing, what is the logic behind it
#
when did this convention arise
#
is it relevant now, will it make me
#
you then relate to the world
#
which doesn't also involve you being
#
what I do with somebody else is not a comment
#
on you, is not a judgement on you
#
I think that's where the institution with marriage
#
couples or close friends
#
or whatever, feeling threatened
#
and you find that between saas bahu
#
because they're seeing it as
#
there is a limited amount of
#
attention that the man can give
#
and either the saas gets it or the bahu gets it
#
and they're both delusional because a man doesn't give
#
a fuck about any of them
#
more and more and more, saas bahu I think is the obvious
#
one because we see it in the family
#
but we see it everywhere else
#
discussion I had with my wife on this
#
where I said I prefer books
#
they don't feel neglected
#
they don't feel ignored
#
they're happy when I read them
#
I don't have to finish them
#
war and peace will not complain that why are you
#
committing crime and punishment
#
take it anytime, keep it anytime
#
don't read it completely
#
read it differently each time
#
each time I read a book I read it differently
#
why can't people be like books
#
she threw the books out
#
that people merely in his house are not allowed
#
to keep books, they're in his library
#
in his other house in Bangalore
#
I hope that wasn't a secret fact I gave away
#
so let's take a quick commercial break
#
and we shall for the next 10 minutes
#
put coffee on the top of our list of priorities
#
which will bring happiness so it's the same thing
#
long before I was a podcaster
#
in fact chances are that many of you
#
first heard of me because of my blog
#
India Uncut which was active
#
and became somewhat popular at the time
#
I loved the freedom the form gave me
#
and I feel I was shaped by it
#
I exercised my writing muscle every day
#
and was forced to think about many different things
#
because I wrote about many different things
#
well that phase in my life ended
#
and now it is time to revive it
#
only now I'm doing it through a newsletter
#
I have started the India Uncut newsletter
#
at IndiaUncut.Substack.com
#
regularly about whatever catches my fancy
#
I'll write about some of the themes
#
I cover in this podcast
#
so please do head on over to IndiaUncut.Substack.com
#
once you sign up each new installment that I write
#
you don't need to go anywhere
#
so subscribe now for free
#
the India Uncut newsletter
#
at IndiaUncut.Substack.com
#
give this fund yourself
#
we see it in everyday life
#
for what you've done wrong
#
most people who are screwing up
#
already know they are screwing up
#
so if a chap in IPL has already bowled 4 whites
#
he knows that he has bowled 4 whites
#
and he shouldn't be bowling 4 whites
#
he needs some help to refocus
#
and I've always felt the way to help him refocus
#
is to tell him what to do
#
so give him a really small target
#
don't say speak properly
#
these are all nice things
#
tell him something specific
#
that he is capable of doing
#
give him a small target
#
that keeps him really focused
#
that should really be the easy way out
#
it's the same with negative thoughts
#
don't think negative thoughts
#
don't think about sadness
#
unless you can replace it with something bigger
#
don't doesn't solve the problem
#
wise words and speak properly
#
could be such a great Marathi surname
#
and you might see one in the IPL
#
even the Marathi names that we've got
#
coming up especially with CSK
#
and a few of the others
#
I've stopped following IPL for the last couple of years
#
sports I follow oddly enough are chess
#
and cycling which I kind of watch obsessively
#
everyday thanks to GCN Plus
#
from that and actually let me
#
continue down this theme
#
you seem to have heard all my episodes yesterday
#
you even told me what my worst episode was
#
it was in the early days
#
about the show, what should I do
#
we all get into a structure
#
I think you've heard it from a lot of your listeners
#
we know these five or six ideas
#
that you're going to throw every time
#
it's like we've seen TTP
#
we've seen past test papers
#
but for those listening
#
there'll be one lot that says
#
it's the same question and so many different
#
people are answering it in so many different ways
#
so to me that is the attraction
#
they're discussing the same issue
#
thin desire, thick desire
#
we're talking about everybody lies
#
how much more can we take
#
for the others they think
#
there must be a 300 in second way of looking
#
so maybe that's something for you to think
#
the lot that thinks this is tedious
#
to think of it differently
#
the next person may have something different
#
to say about the exact same thing
#
not the issue but the structure
#
because otherwise the footnotes, the references
#
all become too familiar
#
and unfortunately I think there is a
#
group of people who think familiar is tedious
#
yeah it's unfortunate people
#
think like that, no I get what you're saying
#
but you know just to go to the
#
like the few themes that I have that I keep
#
exploring on the positive side
#
there are other different answers like if I hadn't
#
kept exploring that would say Pratap Bhanu
#
Mehta's take on thick and thin desires was
#
I'm going to in fact I'm going to record with Luke
#
Burgess a couple of months from now and I'll
#
and that was a great take but on the other hand
#
I think what also happens and I will be hard
#
you develop these frames and then you know
#
somebody says something that's the first thing that
#
comes to your head and sometimes
#
it is worth exploring sometimes it is not
#
so I do try to consciously avoid
#
some of these now and I
#
think some of it also has
#
in the sense that if I read more
#
in a good month I read 20 books in a month
#
or 30 books in a month but in a bad month I might
#
read one or two or three apart from the
#
regular reading that I do
#
and the thing is I need more good months because
#
the good months give you new ideas
#
fresh ways of looking and then in the excitement
#
and infatuation for those ideas
#
they can kind of come on the
#
show though I think it is worth
#
I mean sometimes I wonder why I'm doing this at all
#
a following right and there is a large
#
following which is interested in this
#
wanting to know about this
#
I'll tell you what my angst is, my angst is that
#
a really deep following
#
the last nine times literally I have been at an
#
airport I have been stopped by someone saying
#
thank you for what you do which is very touching and please
#
keep doing that because that's what keeps
#
me going and I was at Blossom's
#
bookstore when I went to Bangalore to record
#
in half an hour three people came and asked me if
#
sometimes I feel trapped
#
treadmill se otar nahi sakte
#
which is not that I mean I
#
have seen from my recent episodes all of
#
them recorded when I wasn't particularly happy with
#
the I put in the effort
#
I kathur re bhaji as Jerry
#
Pinto would say and get the job done
#
it's like everything else
#
I guess you can't avoid
#
getting into some groove or the
#
other right? Look at it this way
#
a high performing athlete
#
goes by what they're doing
#
is pretty much the same
#
it doesn't change dramatically
#
unless you reinvent yourself and say
#
do something dramatically different
#
I'll go from being a goalkeeper to a striker
#
so in my sense to the outside
#
world it will seem like tedious
#
ki the guy is still doing the same thing
#
midfielder hai aage piche bhaag raha hai
#
what does it feel to him?
#
what does it feel to him?
#
what does it seem to the other people?
#
so I watch it and think
#
he's anticipating the ball so well
#
he's anticipating the spaces so well
#
even when he's off the ball he's beautiful
#
that he doesn't score a goal is completely irrelevant to me
#
that is not the aspect I'm looking at
#
so he shouldn't feel any pressure
#
to say from midfielder now I'm gonna go score a goal
#
I enjoy what he's doing there
#
so I think there is pressure to think
#
I'm doing the same thing should I do something different
#
should I reinvent myself
#
should I make the podcast longer, shorter, preppier
#
if you feel you want to experiment go ahead
#
we'll try somebody as a false 9
#
we'll bring back Kharayaf
#
and say everybody plays every position
#
Kharayaf's spirit is well and alive in Manchester City
#
and even the recent changes
#
that Guardiola has done for example
#
are just phenomenal and beautiful
#
I think my question there is not ki
#
football mein formation alak kare ki nahi
#
my question is ki football khelna hi hai ki nahi
#
as far as the form is concerned
#
I think I have really grogged it, it's a new form
#
nobody does ATAR podcast
#
incredibly well, I'm proud of what I'm getting done
#
and I enjoy the process of the
#
connections that I make
#
at the same time it's like just I'm fucking tired
#
a different matter and we will not make this about me
#
thing right, if you've been doing something for very long
#
and you look at the people who say they want to
#
this is what they say, I'm tired
#
I don't find joy in it anymore
#
there are the others, take the golfers
#
but they're enjoying it in the masters
#
who I see still play sport
#
and I add that to myself
#
that maybe 30 years ago
#
I could have played really good level
#
coaching whatever, I would have made it
#
I wouldn't have made world champion
#
but I would have made it to India
#
I play for the joy of it
#
I don't think that you missed this stupid shot
#
so it's not the joy of it
#
but that's a different angle
#
you're talking about the competitive angle
#
I'm not even talking about going from the masters to the whatever
#
excellence, not competitive
#
anything else that I do
#
excellence will take time because you learn
#
you grok it, you do all of that
#
this thing, it's there, I know what it is
#
I'm sure it's still a challenge
#
that is still going to be a fun thing to do
#
finding 20 different people
#
from the 312 that you've found so far
#
or how many you've found so far
#
I went to Delhi, I knocked in 12 days
#
and I was thinking that it's okay
#
any of these days in the next 2 months
#
and it'll be so comfortable and easy to do
#
and it won't be like these, which it is
#
it's comfortable and easy because I didn't write a book
#
no, that's not the thing
#
it's comfortable and easy because
#
I have a groove with you, even though we've not met often
#
but we've interacted a lot on the side
#
it's comfortable because there is a pre-existing
#
groove and that makes it really easy
#
like I did an episode in Delhi with
#
Ajay Shah and Mohit Satyanand
#
I could do it in my sleep
#
because they're friends, I know the subject
#
that's really comfortable
#
but others you put in the work and I think when you
#
go deep, it's also emotionally
#
exhausting because they are going to places
#
that maybe they haven't been before and you're going
#
there with them and that's
#
this thing, but this is in
#
severe and unwarranted danger
#
of turning into a therapy session for myself
#
no, but it was as I said to you
#
when you asked me to come on the show
#
big thing that will it turn into a
#
therapy session, I've never been to therapy and
#
for you you mean? yeah, for me
#
dark and dangerous places that I
#
really don't want to be
#
that it's possible, Amit Verma
#
Verma will lull you into
#
this pace and conversation
#
and gently drag you into
#
places that you perhaps don't want to go
#
to people but they've always been glad they went there
#
but do you have dark and dangerous
#
so far I haven't noticed it, you may
#
have taken me there and I haven't noticed it yet
#
I think if you're kind of done with your childhood
#
I think dark dangerous places are over
#
now what is dark dangerous in law school?
#
nothing, dark and dangerous
#
law school, I think when you
#
although he's much younger
#
we were in the pioneering days
#
when there was nothing, law school was
#
set up in a bicycle shed
#
first tell me one thing
#
you wanted to go into the army, you failed twice
#
you did in getting from Allahabad to
#
in those incredible circumstances
#
the challenge young people today may not
#
recognize the significance of
#
what was the shift there?
#
was it that the next respectable
#
thing to do which is still open to me now that
#
engineering, medical seem to be gone is
#
kind of give us problems to solve at home
#
and you know kind of discuss
#
those things with us and ask us to solve stuff
#
in fact I remember very clearly
#
I don't think your listeners
#
understand what a slide rule is
#
but in the good old days before scientific calculators
#
instrument that you used
#
it was a predecessor technology to the scientific calculator
#
when you learn to use it
#
it was fantastically good
#
and so I learned to use it
#
so I had already learned to use it
#
before I actually started studying the basics of trigonometry in school
#
obviously I was going to be an engineer
#
I was very keen that I should be an engineer
#
and that was the only respectable occupation really at the time
#
also I did exceptionally badly
#
in my 12th standard exam
#
the kind of testing that
#
I had to understand the why of it
#
I couldn't just sit down and
#
so I didn't do very well in my
#
I did very well in the entrance test
#
we had a common entrance test at that time
#
but combination of the two
#
meant that I would get some
#
strange engineering stream in some strange college
#
we didn't have that many engineering seats
#
and each state had a different
#
quota for general merit
#
and at that time I was very angry
#
about the reservations system
#
it was virtually impossible
#
if you are in general merit to get a seat
#
and reservations really
#
had my goat for a very long time
#
wrote something to say that
#
in some places it was more than 100%
#
because you have percentages
#
and absolute numbers both
#
after you do all the percentages and then you add 3 to it
#
so anyway long story short I didn't do engineering
#
to Bangalore to write the law exam
#
I had a year to kill before
#
I could do it next year
#
and 1 year of NCC to go with it
#
so I had a great 1 year
#
learning to play billiards
#
then Appa on a whim said
#
there is a handicap tournament coming up
#
thought that I would win
#
but he thought that I would understand the situation
#
that my handicap was bigger than his
#
so I gave him a handicap
#
just fairly substantial
#
I did pretty well in that tournament
#
so I didn't think I endeared myself to him
#
so the 1 year I did my BSc was
#
mostly spent learning to
#
so the billiards were done
#
camp ramp was done well
#
but nothing special happened during that time
#
and none of the physics, chemistry, maths
#
I couldn't understand anything
#
not that I was stupid but the way
#
they were teaching it just didn't make any sense to me
#
so that's how it happened
#
and then what choice did I have
#
and law was a happenstance actually
#
law school was set up only a few years before I joined
#
nobody thought law was a sensible profession
#
you only did it if you had
#
so if you look back at all the
#
were first time lawyers
#
if you had somebody in the law
#
a couple of the college
#
folks from the national law school
#
it's better than the rut I am stuck in
#
that at least some hope
#
what will happen by doing law
#
so he said I won't pay the fees
#
that how will I pay the fees
#
and it was not a large sum of money
#
for the national law school was 750
#
which year was this? 1991
#
which even then was not a large sum of money
#
it was not a large sum of money
#
that let's work part time
#
Times of India Bangalore edition was launched
#
there was an ad somewhere that they want people to help
#
so we applied like this
#
little did I know what the task was
#
so Bangalore traditionally had
#
Indian Express and Hindu
#
only three English papers
#
Times of India turns up there
#
that the most difficult habit
#
if you have been reading a newspaper
#
and your father has been reading it
#
and your children are going to read it
#
getting rid of it and replacing it is
#
they are familiar with the layout
#
they are familiar with the tone
#
where every piece of news item
#
reach out, they have a way of reading a newspaper
#
we all assume that everybody reads from page 1
#
that's not how people read newspapers
#
they have areas of interest
#
which they want to do and depends very much
#
so if they are from Chittadurga for example
#
and they are living in Bangalore
#
there is a section in the newspaper
#
which deals with places outside of Bangalore
#
so they will read the first page
#
and then go to that section
#
so understanding that means that
#
it's very difficult to drag them out of that
#
which I think was incredibly hard
#
and I still think it's the hardest marketing job
#
and great training to be a lawyer
#
when they don't want to actually see you
#
knocking on their doors
#
and persuading them to shift from
#
whatever newspaper they are reading
#
to buy a subscription to the Times of India
#
so in the morning I used to
#
go pick up all the newspapers
#
including the Times of India
#
and make a pitch for that day
#
that today's newspaper is low
#
and here is why the Times of India
#
is better than whichever newspaper they are reading that day
#
so every morning I had to do this pitch
#
go house to house to house to house
#
and you would customize it for every particular day
#
like they could recover this better
#
that is the research I had to do at 5.30am
#
so that I could make the pitch at 7am
#
but would you always find things
#
I had to make it right?
#
I'm sure I could find something different
#
that your paper doesn't have that
#
and this is interesting
#
and there's always going to be something in this that is not in that
#
and since I've read it very well
#
I'm not here to argue with you
#
I'm here to persuade you
#
I have to first understand
#
and tell you that it's in ours
#
in addition to that you are interested in X, Y and Z
#
that is also in ours that is not in yours
#
so that was the exercise
#
and then again every evening
#
the hardest thing to sell
#
how do you persuade people to
#
were people rude to you?
#
exception, but I would be rude to the person
#
I don't want anyone knocking on my door
#
frankly I don't want anyone talking to me at 7am
#
in the morning, I want peace, quiet
#
the first hour in the morning
#
I don't want to see anyone, I don't want to hear anyone
#
I don't want to speak to anyone, nothing, just leave me alone
#
someone comes and says sir
#
we will take Times of India
#
newspaper is part of your personality
#
or at least was in those days
#
it's what defined you, right?
#
it's like what's your poison
#
I only smoke one brand of cigarettes
#
other taste you may have
#
whatever, it's very specific
#
you won't have the other one
#
I don't take any newspapers
#
or watch any news channel
#
so I guess that means no personality alas
#
it's not relevant now, it was then
#
so I am saying at that time in the 90s
#
you are taking my quips very seriously
#
I have got to smile while I make them
#
tough one to begin with
#
I had this, plus I had school work
#
activities, so my day was
#
so very little time for social
#
did you enjoy studying law?
#
but I wasn't passionate about it
#
a way of earning a livelihood
#
that I would do something great and fantastic
#
with it, law school was set up
#
to create social engineers
#
we are going to change the world using the law
#
and it's in the book, the preface of that
#
is all the great people
#
gone off and done wonderful things around
#
that I would be any one of those people
#
so I had no imagination
#
to go out and change the world or anything
#
I just thought, if I do well in the law
#
I will have a livelihood
#
and that was also a huge sense of insecurity
#
because I didn't know whether I would have a career
#
so I am stuck here for 5 years, at the end of 5 years
#
so that was a very deep sense of insecurity
#
that I was not like anybody else
#
others had fall back options
#
either you had rich kids
#
or you had rich parents
#
or you had people in the profession
#
or your father is an IAS officer
#
he will put you on some panel
#
state electricity board
#
public service commission
#
you will get on any of those panels
#
and at least you will get to court
#
and then you can show that you are really good
#
how can I show an ability
#
unless actually I have cases to argue
#
how does judge know I am any good
#
sense of insecurity through law school
#
also I think in my first year
#
it was all social sciences
#
and I didn't know any of that
#
so economics, sociology
#
philosophy made no sense to me
#
it's like what kind of a subject is this
#
they don't tell you the answer
#
what is the correct answer
#
you are having this argument
#
on and on and on and on
#
and there is no answer to this damn thing
#
which book has the answer
#
classmates all had done social sciences
#
the teachers were addressing the average
#
the bottom of the class with that
#
so nothing ever made sense to me
#
and so it was incredibly
#
hard the first year was just
#
incredibly hard I didn't know if I was
#
in the right place I was doing the right thing
#
I pissed off my parents
#
and this is getting really
#
in my second term they decided
#
I said boss this is itself
#
I was the only chap in my class
#
so the deal we reached eventually
#
we won't increase the ones we have
#
we will increase the ones who are about to come
#
crippled future murli's
#
but there were a lot of scars
#
because nobody forgets no
#
establishment never forgets
#
you may think they don't remember
#
so law school first year was
#
not fun and I didn't think I was
#
very good again that's the thing right
#
doesn't tell you you are very good
#
and it's a very common thing
#
if you say it it will become ego
#
it will become arrogant
#
look at a page and it's in your head
#
and you can parse it there
#
right so photographic memory and all of that
#
and I want to talk about that in the literal
#
sense that you've mentioned it
#
but also I think as a metaphor there is
#
something there because the way
#
people form frames typically
#
is that they will almost
#
fall into a way of looking at the world
#
whether because of their background and where they come from
#
so they have a certain frame already
#
or they are in with a particular in
#
open college and all of that and they have a particular
#
fashionable frame so you also
#
have this fashionable frame and start
#
using fashionable terms that otherwise
#
make no sense like neoliberal
#
so a particular pet peeve of mine
#
change the way that you learned stuff from the
#
way that others did and did it mean that you
#
could take in more knowledge
#
and in that metaphorical sense
#
tell me a little bit about how your
#
frames and ways of looking at the world
#
really eye opening because
#
of the subjects we studied and how we studied
#
in science because that's how you're learning
#
every time you study you're building
#
on what you already knew
#
everything was an aha moment
#
you know you think of it and
#
say yeah two people are equal
#
and you think no actually
#
just saying they're equal actually
#
causes them to be dealt with in equally
#
of things which you took for granted
#
because you're thinking just logical
#
you're not thinking of the impact A equals
#
B means A equals B they're equal
#
but actually the impact of this
#
it causes A not to be equal to B
#
think of so those were the kind
#
of things the frames where
#
you thought equality is a wonderful
#
thing fraternity is the wonderful thing
#
on them is harsher than
#
things we didn't think of
#
the same thing affects women differently
#
affects married people differently
#
from single people affects people not
#
south so when you say for example
#
now this whole argument about
#
hindi being the national language
#
well in the south we'll have to study three languages
#
right well in the north you
#
only study two languages hindi and
#
english well i have to do kannada or tamil
#
hindi and english how is that
#
to say hindi the national language and english
#
should be the international language then you must be forced to study
#
one south indian language then it's equal
#
but otherwise saying everybody is equal
#
everybody has to learn hindi and english
#
is not equal so these are the kind
#
of things that law school
#
taught us to be more critical
#
of and think don't take these things
#
do you remember any specific example when the Israelis
#
so i think the male female
#
thing reservations was a big
#
where my own experience
#
that if there hadn't been
#
reservations i would have got into
#
a course in a better college
#
that i brought to law school and it was
#
but then i realized that
#
really that is not what it's about
#
i could have got into a college
#
what was affecting 80% of the population
#
which is they couldn't imagine going to college
#
and this is to help that
#
thanks to law school that we looked
#
at each of these things very differently
#
we looked at crime very differently
#
you know we think it's all black and white
#
he should go to jail he should hang
#
that it's not that straightforward
#
he's not a criminal maybe
#
maybe he's actually innocent
#
maybe he doesn't deserve to go to jail
#
there are certain things which shouldn't be crimes
#
why should adultery be a crime this is a real
#
example i was shocked when i discovered it
#
i've written columns about
#
these so called victimless crimes and how
#
they are such a travesty and even adultery
#
the way it was defined in the indian penal
#
had been tampered with so just a misogynist
#
nature of the law itself is like
#
it was a shock to me when
#
i discovered it i just didn't think
#
two people can figure it out
#
slap each other do whatever and
#
figure it out why should
#
the law come into the picture here
#
so those were the kind of things where
#
i suddenly found the intrusive force
#
the law is actually oppressive
#
is actually being used as an instrument of oppression
#
as this warm fuzzy protective
#
coming from a reasonably privileged family
#
which has no actual contact
#
with the police or the law or any of that
#
that's how you think of the law right
#
it's there to order society and everything
#
runs well and you're protected by it
#
but that was a big shock
#
side of it in the law as
#
how it's oppressive how it is
#
rather than protecting them and giving the impression
#
that it's protecting them so that's the worst part
#
not that you're hurting
#
that you're actually a wolf
#
in sheep's clothing that's
#
the more difficult one if you know who the villain
#
is very easy you're assuming
#
that this is this benevolent kind
#
person which is the law when actually
#
that is hurting you that i think was
#
coming into into law school
#
so i want to ask about a
#
come to my mind when i think about the law and obviously
#
i'll ask lay person questions because
#
you'll have to forgive me for that and one of
#
them is that you mentioned that
#
going to law school was instrumental
#
to earning a good living and all of that and
#
it wasn't a passion as such and therefore
#
one assumes there are no higher
#
values in play i want to become good at this
#
and i want to make money but at the same time
#
in your writings there is a lot of talk of higher values
#
and i want to talk about three
#
sort of different dichotomies and one of those
#
in your mind you have a
#
concept of what the law should be and what
#
reality the law in india
#
in so many different ways
#
you know whether it relates to women or whatever
#
can be an instrument of oppression
#
do you deal with this because then there
#
is the pragmatic side of you which
#
says that it is not for me to think about
#
these higher issues it is for me to make
#
money in this profession and
#
of you could also be saying that
#
what the fuck what am i really in
#
you're right i think there are stages
#
exposed to this laws and instrument
#
of oppression that very phrase
#
place that as i said wanted to create social
#
which is a terrible thing always bound to end
#
look at it and say it was a failure
#
it was a failure in creating
#
them but social engineering always ends badly
#
not really i think there's a lot
#
of change that has happened
#
we don't see it sometimes
#
again going back to Ashutosh
#
he's doing some fantastic stuff
#
where he is and that is change
#
and he's using the instrument of the law
#
yes but it's not social engineering
#
you ask the community they'll say it's changed the community
#
i won't call it social engineering it's community change
#
and i mean i'm not it's not like i'm
#
searching for euphemisms to describe what i like
#
and what i don't like differently
#
but the implication of social engineering
#
is that you use state coercion and you try
#
to change society from the top down
#
in fact my second dichotomy was about that
#
you know Hayek's distinction of law
#
and legislation where law is
#
the conventional way that a society
#
kind of operates and legislation is
#
what you try to impose upon it
#
and the classics i mean
#
there are many illustrations of that i won't go into that
#
i thought of the very trivial one of when you're
#
on whirly ceiling the speed limits make no
#
sense so your legislation there might
#
be 80kph but when the whole damn road
#
is empty it is optimal for the whole world
#
to drive at 120 and that indeed is a convention
#
but that's a really trivial example
#
but in general that is another
#
sort of conflict and in fact
#
what Ashutosh sort of does
#
i think is he plays on the
#
allow the law as it is in that
#
sense in terms of the way a society
#
really happening with the state so if you
#
remember one of the questions you asked
#
him was if there's a choice
#
between doing the right thing
#
and applying the law what will you do
#
you that i will find a way
#
to read it in such a way
#
that i can do the right thing
#
the margins so he said he will not enforce
#
the rule but you know that's Ashutosh
#
and that's an outlier most people will
#
take the easy way out and just enforce the
#
letter of the law as an instrument of oppression
#
but we are asking social
#
engineering to be done and
#
resisting the state it means
#
coming across sometimes as anarchist
#
but seeing where you can
#
use the law to do it so for example
#
can you help the unions can you get them better
#
terms of service can you get them
#
better terms of employment can you get
#
better working conditions can you get a safer
#
has a huge impact it has a huge impact
#
on health it has a huge impact
#
on their children but if
#
i may point out that is exactly the example
#
i would use of social engineering going wrong
#
like one of the reasons
#
we are not a manufacturing superpower
#
is that you had labour laws in the 70s
#
which hurt workers more than they helped them
#
which were a disincentive for
#
business expansion which made sure
#
that many medium firms would remain
#
medium size firms forever
#
and not expand which therefore hurt
#
overall employment which trapped people
#
in poverty and you know if you
#
go by the intent of the law we are
#
protecting them if you go by
#
outcomes and what actually happened
#
those labour laws were an
#
undisputed disaster i think
#
surely at this point we can't
#
i will disagree with you on this
#
spent 10 years in ladin
#
the exact same provisions
#
that we have in this legislation
#
yeah but that is isomorphic mimicry
#
existed in europe for a very long time
#
the difference therefore is
#
and the babus there and what they do
#
so to say that the labour laws
#
is because we are going to
#
nothing to do with the gun
#
it's the same gun that's there that's here
#
we're using it like a sledge hammer
#
they're using it like it should be
#
as a gun so there's a difference
#
no no i disagree i'll tell you why
#
and you've no doubt heard my episode with shruti
#
i was about to say premature ejaculation
#
the thing is if you're testing a monkey and a fish
#
you will want to see how the fish swims in water
#
and you'll want to see how the monkey climbs a tree
#
you're taking the values there and saying
#
no let us make the monkey swim
#
or let us make the fish climb the tree
#
it doesn't make sense that is a standard
#
our intentions are good this law has
#
worked there let's put it here and see what happens
#
what happened and what happened
#
to me like i feel strongly about this because
#
the fact that that manufacturing revolution
#
was not allowed to happen that it happened
#
in china and it didn't happen here is
#
to me a humanitarian disaster because
#
it condemned hundreds of millions of people to poverty
#
for much longer than necessary
#
attempts at social engineering like this
#
from the top down are a key
#
must confess that i did practice labor
#
that i acted for the employer not
#
the employees and yet i'm saying
#
the law itself the law is from
#
1940 so it was not something
#
europe was coming out or in the middle
#
of the war so they were
#
not in a socioeconomic situation
#
vastly different from us
#
at the end of the war europe
#
and end of the war india
#
socioeconomically were not
#
so their level of industrialization
#
and if you look at what happened throughout europe
#
italy so i'm not talking only
#
of the eastern block the western block as well
#
all have identical legislation
#
the difference in india was
#
the babus decided to make it
#
and no law can deal with that
#
we know what the system is we knew that would happen
#
you know it's like there's an excellent
#
there's an excellent point that pranay
#
kutasane and no we did in the 70s
#
where indira made it much worse and
#
the thing is the point that pranay
#
and raghu jetli make in missing in action
#
and on their episode with me
#
it is the worst thing that you can
#
say in public policy is that it didn't work
#
because it wasn't implemented well
#
that is a worse freaking thing you have to
#
you can make out in advance
#
and it could have been done and it
#
wasn't done like if you're saying social
#
engineering worked my answer is how because
#
you are yourself saying that it that particular
#
thing failed here because of implementation
#
i don't care about the because the point is it
#
failed here it did it did and
#
i think there are many reasons for
#
failure we tend to think
#
it's very multifactorial and it all has
#
to do all has to do 100 percent of it
#
has to do with state oversight correct
#
and i remember your episode
#
a person running a small business
#
a medium sized business and the hassle
#
that he went through it's the same
#
story with the restaurant business
#
dispatches used to happen from his factory to
#
the number of times the truck would get
#
commercial taxi department or this
#
and he'd have to go on his scooter carrying cash
#
if we had fixed everything else
#
and we still had this we would have made
#
it just like your update but that is true
#
of literally every single thing that if we did everything
#
else in this one thing was there but the point is this one thing
#
was a move in the negative direction because you
#
could have foreseen that this
#
was not going to work and you did it
#
because you wanted to do virtue signaling
#
and say our intentions are the great we are protecting
#
workers you did the opposite
#
right and we still do it in Europe
#
it's like fish water monkey tree
#
right it really is that in a rent
#
seeking world where the state is so
#
overwhelmingly powerful and
#
we can agree to disagree on this
#
we will agree to disagree on this
#
and this is where my thoughts have changed
#
the stand i used to take in law school
#
was the stand i'm taking now
#
are dramatically different so what i said
#
would have been that no
#
it's unfair we must allow free market
#
they must be allowed to hire and fire
#
people should be allowed to
#
staff up a thousand people when there
#
is demand and then get rid of them
#
the whole idea of the WTO
#
and the dunkel drafts at that
#
holding conflicting views
#
on the world at the same
#
to do it yes it was okay to do
#
and that was the time when i discovered wild
#
very beautiful line from
#
able to play gracefully
#
and that really started
#
that they are conflicting
#
you should take a stand on this and
#
not take a and take and hold that
#
stand against every other idea
#
but that is not what we were
#
taught in law school that it is
#
these different positions
#
because what drives those decisions
#
are very very different
#
and the outcomes that you expect are very very
#
different therefore you shouldn't be
#
pragmatic in your view on any of these things
#
which was a very difficult thing for me to get my
#
head around in my first year of law school
#
but i enjoyed it after that
#
i think like you said for a lot of people in the Indian
#
system who are doing rote learning you know
#
it's the same question that you asked when you first
#
encountered social sciences ki answer kahan hai
#
today from what i can see from the outside
#
are going in the opposite direction where
#
you have to think in a particular fashionable
#
way which has no connection with the real
#
world and we have people there with
#
and we were okay with them we were friends with them
#
i still am friends with people
#
i have serious disagreements
#
with and i can't reconcile
#
irreconcilable differences with certain
#
people but i still think of them as my
#
friends i still send them notes i still make introductions
#
to other people of a similar thought
#
i have no problem with that so i think
#
in law school in an environment which was safe
#
for ideas that you could express
#
an opinion we were taught
#
not by one professor in class
#
but three professors in my constitutional law
#
class all three who held
#
different views of what the constitution
#
on that point in class and were willing to
#
debate it with sixty kids who are less
#
maybe even a third of their age so that
#
was the environment in law school that made
#
i think great fun made for great great great fun
#
the academic side of it was
#
we didn't have the infrastructure we didn't have
#
the profs didn't come from Harvard
#
so they studied in the supposedly
#
but there was something about the place
#
that said that we can be
#
more than each of these little parts
#
that made the environment really
#
great and we were the first few right
#
twenty years later after i graduated
#
law school and i went with a colleague of mine
#
and some of the profs from
#
my time were still there
#
and so i just happened to see
#
them on the corridor and they immediately
#
and my colleague was really shocked
#
they remember you after
#
the profs remember my roll number
#
so i had a specific place where i would sit in every class
#
it's on video remembered the
#
paper i wrote my first year in sociology
#
another one of them mentioned
#
another paper i wrote in constitutional law
#
so we met four or five of them
#
is it because you were memorable or they were memorable
#
i think we built a relationship with them
#
the easiest thing for you to write
#
an assignment is to take a list of
#
what somebody else has written and write another
#
there's nothing we could fudge from
#
you have to have something to copy from
#
we didn't have anything before
#
there was nothing on the internet
#
you mentioned that if you had to pass a judgement
#
you know your skill of memorizing pages
#
on mass would really help because you would have
#
no option but to read the whole judgement
#
there's no word searches
#
not because we had a task
#
so it was not focused reading
#
reading stuff because it is there
#
sometime in the next four years
#
they will be used for that
#
and to the extent you can make notes you make notes
#
but otherwise you try to remember most of that stuff
#
because you're never going to be able to lay your hands on that book
#
for the next four years
#
the waiting list for that is going to be
#
and we were only allowed to take one book
#
and return it by 9am in the morning
#
that was all you were allowed to do
#
and our library was one little place
#
there wasn't very much in the library
#
so you would take it and memorize it in that time
#
yeah whenever you got your hands on it
#
and some of the books thankfully were also
#
available in the British Library
#
which had a very small legal section but had
#
decent stuff on economics, sociology
#
so i could borrow a book from the British Library
#
so that was my way out which
#
i never told anyone but
#
that was how i read Adam Smith
#
otherwise i wouldn't have ever
#
Mill, none of that stuff
#
in other professions i certainly
#
think it is the case in law i wonder
#
there are i think two kinds of people
#
one is you do the stuff
#
that you require to be good at your thing
#
and have the career and all of that
#
and you don't do anything else
#
approach is that hey you are interested
#
in everything so i might be
#
reading Smith because i want
#
how it pertains to the law
#
and i'm also reading an inquiry
#
into morals and all of that
#
which may not pertain to the law per se
#
but just because it's a world
#
of ideas and i want to read
#
it and therefore your interests
#
are broader and you are then
#
applying frames that you pick up
#
and in other professions i think it's a
#
really small percentage of people who actually
#
how was it in the law because i would imagine
#
that the very nature of studying
#
and argumentation or am i just
#
romanticizing it too much and it's really crap
#
actually it's the opposite
#
the law actually allows you to read
#
anything and relate to it
#
so you read a newspaper
#
there's law in all of it
#
because i want to know under which
#
legislation is this happening
#
under which rule is it happening so it's a way of
#
in the same sense there is economics and everything
#
but every economist is not going to look at
#
the world that way a few keen economists
#
are going to so i would imagine that
#
every lawyer also will not
#
correct so you can look at it and say
#
what if this happens in India
#
it's not happening in India yet
#
but what if it happens in India
#
or you can read it and say so and so was arrested
#
what is that crime all about
#
what is the similar text what does the law say on it
#
so for me that was my discovery
#
of law more than what was
#
and i said it to a lot of people who work with me
#
that please read a newspaper every day
#
and every paragraph of that
#
has some law in it try and discover it
#
you know parliament is not working today
#
why what is the rule in
#
the parliamentary rules which says that
#
it decides not to work today
#
who does it who gives the notice
#
my way of discovering the
#
law it's very haphazard
#
and that gave me great joy in doing it
#
and therefore i know random stuff about things which
#
most corporate lawyers don't think is relevant
#
so that for me was the discovery
#
every day is a treasure hunt
#
this is beautiful actually it's a beautiful
#
way of i mean that's how i think of economics certainly
#
but it's a beautiful way to think of law
#
as well because you're right every paragraph will
#
have some connection yeah you just take
#
a newspaper any day you read any news item
#
it's going to have something
#
so and so accused so and so something else
#
and he's filed for defamation
#
is this defamation what are the contours of defamation
#
what happened the last time somebody
#
defamed someone how much money did they get
#
out of it how is it different in the uk how is it different here
#
what is the process for it you know
#
where does it go high court does it go to the supreme court
#
does it go to the district court so there's so many
#
things you can explore with each of these things
#
and it helps create scenarios
#
actually earn me an income
#
because ninety percent of that
#
corporate law doesn't require any of these things
#
my earning a livelihood has nothing
#
to do with curiosity i'm a good artisan
#
i want to you know sing
#
and i want to paint and
#
all of that in my free time
#
that's passion that is not
#
for sale that is not for anything else
#
and i've said that everybody works with me as well
#
or give you a platform to express
#
you're here to work we'll pay you well for it
#
let's stop there the expectation
#
that the employer will also give me a platform
#
like too much pressure on the employer
#
there are great few people
#
who are lucky enough that
#
their work is their passion
#
and i have great respect for those people
#
but to expect that everybody
#
will have it especially i think
#
the younger generation expecting that
#
you know i want the employer to fulfill
#
my fantasies of passion
#
and that's worked well for me
#
that the relationships at work
#
very functional i'll do a good job
#
you'll pay me good money
#
you'll work with me we'll do the work
#
and that's where it all stops
#
i think there's a little bit of social isomorphic
#
mimicry happening as well where a lot of young
#
people today have these crazy
#
expectations and sense of entitlement
#
and all of that you know quiet
#
quitting and all that nonsense is happening
#
and i just think that they are stabbing themselves
#
in the back or whatever
#
because hungry young people
#
from small towns will kick
#
their privileged elite asses and take
#
everything away from them if you don't want to work
#
you ain't getting nothing that's
#
and as far as you know what you said about not using
#
insights on law from reading newspapers
#
and doing all of that is concerned i'm reminded of this
#
great quote by john vanne maker
#
where he said 50% of the money i spent
#
on advertising is wasted
#
but i don't know which half
#
and that's exactly the case here
#
that you don't know which 10%
#
will come into use at some
#
point in time right? absolutely
#
when i said that i'll read
#
anything that i can lay my hands on
#
it wasn't with a purpose
#
that it will come in useful later
#
it's how we deal with scarcity
#
and those were times of scarcity
#
access to daddy's library
#
uncle's library, some library
#
or in the next 5 years in the profession
#
to at least have a fair chance
#
and if i have at least as much
#
information because i'll never have access to it
#
so i just have to memorize the stuff
#
and then it will come in handy
#
2 years later i'll remember
#
in this class on this point i read that judgment
#
and it's happened to me
#
it was something i read in my
#
who had come to teachers labor law
#
i know which book you have read it from
#
and that reference is wrong
#
it was one of those days i don't know why i was in a bad mood
#
it was just one of those days when
#
he was just really annoying
#
and i don't know what it was
#
and i had done practical work on it
#
because i had interned in the labor lawyer's chambers
#
and he was a beautiful teacher
#
and i had done lot of research on this
#
so i knew that he was lying
#
it was true because he had read it in a book
#
and i knew the reference in it was wrong
#
so he was not doing it in bad faith
#
he took it as if i was offending him
#
he said no you're wrong
#
how can you know more than me some stupid stuff like that
#
so i stormed out of the class
#
got the original reference
#
and said here's what you're reading from
#
here's the actual text of the judgement
#
now show me where it is
#
in front of the whole class
#
but he never came back to class
#
he never came back to class
#
he literally finished his career
#
from my class remembers it even now
#
you literally finished his career
#
it was one of those guys
#
they are observed right
#
and where he messed up was not in getting a fact wrong
#
but in the arrogance right
#
but he thought this is my first class
#
i studied label law before this
#
therefore you could never know this
#
that i've read in a book
#
which is a credible book
#
he couldn't imagine the circumstance or a scenario
#
where a student would have
#
fact checked the source
#
found that the source didn't say what this is
#
and find him in that class
#
what are the chances of that happening
#
of all the things in the world you could have discussed
#
you picked this and i knew it
#
a career derailed by a black swan event
#
it had to be bwb, ssb vs rob
#
i remember the case also
#
that is the case you wanted to pick
#
we shouldn't say well done
#
we should feel empathy for the poor guy
#
but he was arrogant he started it
#
what was the difference between him and the others
#
the others would have said
#
yes i'm sure i've read it
#
i will go after this class
#
and you're welcome to join me
#
and we will go and check this out
#
so most of the other profs would have done that
#
didn't understand the culture of the place
#
every other place where
#
a student contradicting you
#
openly in such an emphatic way
#
on a topic which is not
#
those are not the days when people did label law
#
before my first class in label law
#
should have been an easy
#
got hit by a train called moorli
#
but it has happened more than once
#
you had disagreements with profs
#
but it was an environment that allowed you to disagree
#
encouraged disagreement
#
even dogmatic disagreement
#
and this doesn't fit the marxist matrix
#
it's a good explanation
#
and i respect you for it
#
and within this framework
#
which is basically equivalent to saying
#
this is written in the vedas and therefore
#
i don't believe anything you say to the contrary
#
or that i'm doing the analysis
#
and your scenario doesn't fit this framework
#
marxist framework by this point is as much
#
a religious framework as any of these
#
we have debated everything
#
the fall of the soviet union
#
it used to be a very common
#
topic for a debate at that time
#
so that was a topic that we did
#
to the views i hold now and everything that's happened
#
many of the things i thought of
#
have more layers and nuances
#
that i've discovered subsequently
#
yeah i think the thing is not to
#
not to get hung up on particular facts
#
or a particular way of looking at the world
#
but instead the attitude of that
#
i will keep exploring and i will keep that intellectual
#
humility or at least intellectual openness
#
what really matters that we can have a discussion
#
till now on twitter one of us would be
#
lying dead on the floor with blood seeping out of
#
a neoliberal rent seeking
#
and i've been accused of all that in court
#
i say that because before i graduated
#
law school i must be one of the few guys
#
who appeared in court before i graduated
#
law school tell me about that
#
so i was interning with this labor lawyer
#
when he didn't know what to do with an
#
intern and interns didn't know what to do
#
because pehli hua nahi tha
#
lawyers never had interns before
#
it was like tum kya cheez ho
#
and i don't know what to do
#
i've never done one before
#
so i land up at his office
#
set up by the university
#
so he doesn't know me i don't know him
#
again he treats you like you're invisible
#
because he doesn't know what to do with you
#
so somebody comes across and says
#
okay why didn't you read this file
#
because somebody told them that
#
you give interns files to read
#
you're reading one page at a time right
#
they read one more file
#
they read one more file and read one more file
#
ki first 4-5 days i say
#
file pe file pe file pad raho
#
they don't know i know it but i know it
#
ki the only way i'll get his attention
#
that he will find useful
#
and some of them are big files
#
i wrote a one pager and those were days before computers
#
right so i hand wrote it
#
i wrote the relevant facts
#
on which this whole case
#
with references to page numbers and
#
we didn't have post-its
#
you tore a sheet of paper into nice strips
#
and you stapled it to that page
#
toh it should be called flags
#
then the next one was what is the legal question
#
involved so you summarize
#
the whole story is if you answer
#
this question the case is solved
#
there must be 1 or 2 of those
#
which means you have read the law
#
you have studied the facts and you come up with this proposition
#
say this is the question if you answer it
#
yes it goes this way if you answer it no it goes this way
#
so write those 3 propositions
#
it never has more than 2 or 3 propositions
#
so wo kiya and then the answers
#
what are the cases where it's taken this view
#
what are the cases where it's taken this view
#
3 different colors hamne
#
har file pe kar diya in the first week
#
has done the round it's not going back
#
it's not going back for a while
#
so nobody noticed it in the first week
#
nobody noticed it in the second week
#
by accident my boss noticed it
#
because it came back from court
#
and he opened it thinking that
#
it was for the next day rather than
#
the stuff that had just come from court
#
now come and sit with me
#
so within 2 weeks I was sitting
#
like you have this table
#
there was a chair right next to him
#
he said come sit with me
#
so then I was sitting in every one of his meetings
#
and what he would do is
#
he would have the discussion with the client
#
and then the old way was to dictate
#
a letter of advice or the petition
#
and he would then give it to me to correct it
#
which means I had to remember
#
but I had not taken dictation
#
so I have only listened
#
now I have to proof read that document
#
to see if everything that he has said
#
so occasionally the stenographer will make mistakes
#
or while transcribing the notes
#
it's my job from memory
#
to say that it is what he thought
#
and occasionally he may have said something wrong
#
but I can't tell him he was wrong
#
so I show him the draft
#
and say but there is also this
#
that I have read in the notes
#
so then he would correct it
#
so that's how the relationship began to develop
#
and it went beyond the internship
#
so I used to go evenings after school to work in chambers
#
because they all work after hours
#
he got really comfortable
#
which is my 2nd internship
#
I was going to court with him
#
and they got so familiar
#
that everybody in the courts also knew me
#
the judges knew me, the opponents knew me
#
these are today's files
#
it's only a simple matter, just go to court
#
I am not authorized to appear
#
so they filed out an authorization form
#
so the thing in the labour court is
#
because they wanted to get out of the rigours of law
#
they didn't want lawyers there
#
so they thought management and
#
can solve their problems without lawyers
#
that was how it was set up
#
so you need permission if you are a lawyer to appear
#
so if you are not a lawyer
#
if you are a lawyer you have to actually get permission of the court
#
so not being a lawyer turned out to be a virtue
#
and for many days after that
#
so much has changed but so much hasn't
#
I remember the guy's name, he was V.S. Nayak
#
he was the same age as my boss
#
and he was doing an examination in court
#
I was only there to take notes
#
because he is asking questions
#
of his client who is a workman
#
and the judge is anyway there
#
making sure nothing goes wrong
#
so frankly there is not much for me to do
#
and so it's given to the lowest form of life
#
to go sit there and take notes
#
even today that is the task
#
that is given to the cheapest resource
#
they were sitting there taking notes very sweetly
#
did blah blah blah blah blah
#
I was about to jump out of my chair
#
and I had not studied evidence law then
#
I was just about to start it
#
but I had read all this stuff
#
so I want to jump up and say objection is a leading question
#
and it would have been acceptable for me to jump up
#
telepathically I messaged it to him
#
so he knew I was going to ask this
#
so he finished the question
#
and he said it's an admitted fact
#
which is an exception to a leading question
#
so he could have embarrassed me
#
I would have jumped up, made an ass of myself
#
and he could have gloated
#
I am ever grateful for that
#
can brilliance be a curse?
#
I knew you would be modest like this
#
but all of what you described
#
be a curse that some things come easily to you
#
when they don't come easily to others
#
and you can perhaps take it for granted
#
number one and number two
#
you can allow it to make you
#
complacent and sometimes not work as
#
hard because you don't need to work as hard as others
#
perhaps in some context
#
there is a time you are young and you are hungry
#
and there is a time where you may not
#
feel that hunger and that can be the
#
I have different responses to this
#
I have this conversation with my son
#
the superstar in a team
#
and the others are not pulling their weight
#
I am doing ten of these
#
he is just not making the effort
#
I am running up and down the court
#
I have just run a basket there
#
I have come back and defended a basket here
#
and I have gone back and scored
#
all I am asking for him to
#
just come from this side to this side
#
so I have these conversations with him
#
to say it's easy for you
#
for a variety of reasons
#
it's difficult for him for a variety of reasons
#
so we got to figure out what they can do
#
not ask them to do what you can do
#
and there is a rule for everybody in the team
#
and sometimes they just can't do it
#
sometimes they don't want to do it
#
but you still need the team because there is no game
#
so those are the conversations I have with him
#
I never felt I was brilliant
#
I never felt it came easy to me
#
because I had other insecurities
#
the fact that I may not get a job
#
I was brilliant was useless if no one is going to give me a job
#
and no one even felt like
#
they were offering me a job
#
I didn't get the signal that I was going to get any job for my internships
#
we already know you are not good at signals
#
but it was here as well
#
and it's happened with this very person
#
that although he was kind to me
#
we didn't have a warm fuzzy relationship
#
just purely professional
#
we never had conversations
#
so yes we would go together to court
#
but we never did anything social
#
and we never discussed my career
#
that he expressed to me
#
actually expressed to a client
#
again when I landed up to see him socially
#
he still has that seat next to his
#
and I was sitting there when he was having
#
a discussion with clients
#
you know Murali of course
#
the same clients who have been there with him for 20 years
#
whom I had done work for a long time ago
#
he would join my practice and we would be partners in this practice
#
and I said dude if only you had told me this
#
my hair would have been black
#
those years in law school
#
knowing that I didn't have a future
#
gave me and the things it made me do
#
I wouldn't have done any of that
#
if only you had told me this then
#
he would have said it once
#
not everything else is all signals
#
but where is the job offer?
#
this as advice to everyone listening
#
for someone if it is positive
#
it is wonderful little thing
#
it's all the things you want to do
#
you know you should do, you know you want to do
#
just don't get down to doing it
#
and it's really really beautiful
#
and brings tears to my eyes
#
by a man who is in the last years of his life
#
so the poet himself reads it
#
I think after this recording is over
#
stay in a darkened room and cultivate my melancholy
#
celebrate the melancholy
#
let's go to the third dichotomy
#
and the third dichotomy
#
refer to as a positional conflict
#
where you know on the one hand
#
when you are a practicing lawyer
#
you have a fidelity to the law itself
#
the law is supreme and you want to
#
do everything within that
#
at the same time you have a duty
#
and you've pointed out that how
#
the culture in the west will always
#
privilege the law above everything else
#
but Indians expect differently
#
you've written these lines
#
where you've written quote
#
my first experience of this in England was in a
#
derivative action brought in England
#
by shareholders of an Indian company
#
the clients and their Indian council seemed very upset
#
that I was cross examining them before the
#
statement was filed and sought a thorough
#
expert opinion on both Indian civil procedure
#
it is no wonder that no one in India
#
thinks of perjury as an offence
#
and when you are practicing how do you deal with this
#
fidelity is that fiduciary
#
responsibility to your client
#
defend him by hook or by crook
#
and I guess most lawyers would just end
#
but there is a higher responsibility
#
of calling perhaps an element of dharma as you put it
#
and to the whole institution
#
tell me a little bit about
#
you know were there any
#
early dilemmas which shaped the way you
#
think about this how did you deal with this
#
and what do you see around us today
#
as far as this positional conflict is concerned
#
lawyers call positional
#
this is a pure ethical issue
#
when I take a view of the law
#
let us say I take the view
#
and the way it was abrogated
#
a paper on it or I write an opinion on it
#
thing happens somewhere else let's say to Manipur
#
and the government comes to me and says
#
Murli we want you to argue
#
that there was no abrogation of article 370
#
so if I say for example that
#
a provision in the law is illegal
#
I said it is perfectly legal
#
there is a good reason to have it
#
we should not get rid of it
#
I am here for the other side
#
different client, different whatever
#
so I have ended up by my misunderstanding
#
asking you two questions instead of one
#
so positional conflict is that
#
in the west especially in the United States
#
my view of the law is my view of the law
#
and I will not change it for a client
#
my view of the law to suit the client
#
your true intellectual honesty
#
because it is your view of the law
#
in India we don't have that
#
so today I will argue that rent control act
#
and then I will fight for a landlord on that
#
and then I will fight for a tenant
#
and say no no no it is socialist, it is protectionism
#
you have to give it to me
#
here we have people arguing both sides of
#
that very same proposition
#
it is almost schizophrenic right
#
you are holding two different views
#
you can't do that in the west
#
what you are talking about
#
is the ethical conflict
#
there are two ways of looking at it
#
there is a higher view of values
#
and it being a noble profession
#
and there is a more practical
#
it is career threatening for me
#
so if I submit a statement
#
which I know to be untrue
#
I can't say I didn't ask therefore
#
and I know to be untrue
#
if I say it that is the end of my career
#
so do I prioritize my career
#
so the incentive to not lie
#
is that I will have a career
#
we deal with incentives
#
you don't follow this ethical rule
#
you will not have a career
#
and it is as brutal as that
#
it is not that you will get a rap on the knuckles
#
you will not have a career
#
in practice does it work like that
#
so you have no incentive
#
even if it is for half a million bucks
#
over the next 20 years is going to make you 5 million bucks
#
you can't step on that line
#
internally in your profession
#
that nobody will cross it
#
it is career threatening
#
why would it threaten my career
#
give me an example of the line
#
they said that they had a
#
conversation with the other side
#
and the other side said blah blah blah blah blah
#
and we said blah blah blah blah blah
#
and then the following things happened
#
where is the record of any of that
#
did you write a letter to them
#
to say you said this and I said this
#
no no we met face to face
#
were there any witnesses
#
yeah yeah but they are not willing
#
to come up and say this in court
#
your action by what the conversation was
#
no no no we didn't do anything for a long time
#
how do I say this in court
#
rather than assert that it actually happened
#
this this but I also have to say
#
that I have no documentary evidence
#
is their oral testimony
#
with everything else they have said
#
if it's inconsistent obviously it's not true
#
so there is no chance for any
#
to the extent that I have to
#
say what the conditions are of
#
what I have said I have to say it
#
it's not his statement my client's
#
statement it's a statement of Murali Neelakantan the solicitor
#
to the case the rule is the same
#
when you look at filing a case
#
advocate what does that verification
#
you have signed it you actually
#
read all of this and you can prove all of this in
#
basis a good chance that all of this can be proved
#
in court we don't do it here
#
the ethical conflicts arise and there are
#
several of them you know is this the
#
you can get any opinion from any
#
Indian lawyer on anything
#
it's a meaningless thing
#
honestly and validly held
#
which is the test that we use
#
elsewhere in the world do you actually
#
research this and do you seriously
#
believe that you will win this
#
on the basis of this opinion
#
I have tried to rationalize it in the
#
piece that you read out
#
I thought I could rationalize it is
#
in the west there is a lot more certainty
#
about the law there is a rule of law
#
and there is a lot of certainty around it
#
in India you can go to any judge and any
#
judge could say absolutely anything
#
to say you can win this case
#
could actually win it in India
#
incredibly ridiculous cases that people
#
have managed to win in India
#
you can say he is actually holding
#
the other way of looking at it is
#
we don't really care much about the truth
#
because philosophically we think truth
#
so again we have this problem
#
the west at least the UK
#
and in India where culturally
#
so caught up with the truth whereas there
#
they are obsessed with it they can't imagine
#
and for me it was a very early experience with
#
interaction with people where
#
I got to the office one day
#
and I had a voicemail from my secretary
#
it was a monday morning
#
she said I am really sorry I am running a little late
#
so I have missed my train
#
I will be there 20 minutes later
#
so she usually arrives at 9.30 she said she
#
will be here by 9.50 perfectly
#
she tells me I am really sorry I am 20 minutes
#
late I will work through lunch and get
#
everything done don't worry about it
#
I said I am not worried about it but if you want to tell me
#
what happened oh I know I really
#
had a rough night last night
#
went out with the girls partied a lot
#
missed the train this morning and I was late
#
what would have happened in India
#
my daughter was ill I had to take them
#
to the doctor blah blah blah
#
none of this bullshit right
#
you didn't even see my email
#
which is why in India after I send you the email I call you
#
sir did you get the email
#
which is why I got this one wrong
#
and I had never gotten those emails
#
I feel like a battered partner in a bad marriage
#
I am completely gaslighted
#
that was my final year in law school
#
I wrote a seminar paper on women in the law
#
battered woman syndrome
#
and why the law in India doesn't recognize it
#
recognizes grave and southern
#
provocation which means
#
if I kill you you should have provoked me now
#
it's not that I was beating you for the last 20 years
#
that's also the story in the Nanavati case right
#
did he provoke commander Nanavati or not
#
did Ahuja provoke Nanavati or not
#
infidelity cause for provocation
#
my friend plays JRD Tata in that film
#
that's my claim to fame
#
of Ram Jaitlani spending 2 weeks
#
and he was a great teacher
#
he was involved in the case
#
the way he taught it to us
#
I don't think anybody else could have taught it
#
so you mentioned 3 teachers
#
or if there are other teachers you want to mention
#
because you raised your eyebrows just now
#
tell me about the people who had an impact on you
#
and the way you approached the world
#
so these 3 I mentioned in that piece
#
judges and lawyers giving back
#
and that there was a tradition
#
so Ram Jaitlani used to teach
#
in the government law college here
#
he taught in the national law school
#
E.S. Venkatramayya Chief Justice of India taught
#
I'm glad that the last Chief Justice
#
Justice Lalit is actually teaching at Jindal
#
that they want to make money as arbitrators
#
do this that and the other
#
it's the same thing with lawyers
#
in the old days lawyers used to
#
and we enjoyed lawyers coming and teaching
#
not just me but my previous generation as well
#
and in Delhi lawyers used to go and teach
#
justice decided that we are getting lawyers
#
why should we hire teachers
#
so we had no academic input at all
#
and we had part time lawyers
#
soon what happened they could get cheap
#
and pay them 500 rupees a class rather than hire
#
so you got this lawyer who didn't have a practice
#
desperately needed 500 rupees
#
wanted to clamp down on that
#
and again Niyat and Neeti problem
#
try and clamp down on that
#
they said you can't have part time teachers
#
the loss where lawyers thought
#
I don't want to be a part time teacher
#
because I am a good lawyer
#
so now you got the worst guys who are becoming teachers
#
and the good guys who are becoming lawyers
#
who are never coming to teach
#
so we have had this crisis in the last
#
haven't understood this
#
when you are saying where is all this idealism
#
in one part of my life and you
#
think was missing from the other part of my life
#
and how I reconciled it
#
when I left law school I said I would quit at 40
#
and what would I do after I turned 40
#
because I think it's very fulfilling
#
I love the vibe in class
#
place where beautiful sparks
#
everywhere and it's bright and sunny
#
my dear friend Shamnath Bashir
#
called me one random day
#
and I had spoken to him
#
I said Shamnath come on I have a full time job
#
I'm a partner in a big firm
#
don't be silly what's the point of this all
#
why do you think I will be a good teacher
#
he said because you taught me
#
I was in my second year you were in the
#
fourth year and as a fourth year student
#
you were the only guy who came and taught my class
#
instead of the professor
#
I did teach as a student
#
so he said you must come and teach
#
and taught during the other part of the day
#
in Calcutta in the rains
#
getting there and back but the amount of
#
hostility I got from the university
#
they wouldn't even give me a desk
#
give me a place to even keep my laptop
#
so if I become a popular lecturer
#
for students like me then I become the benchmark
#
just short of shooting me
#
they did everything else
#
just imagine I come out with
#
two ring binders, a laptop in the rain
#
and I'm standing on the corridor
#
not one of the faculty says you can sit in my office
#
you've come to teach this
#
I teach this subject in class
#
and then I get invited to talk to
#
90% of them don't turn up to that
#
me to come and talk to you
#
the vice chancellor himself didn't turn up
#
the registrar didn't turn up
#
some four or five junior faculty
#
and I told him this, I said
#
where you are the saints
#
commercial people right
#
the sinners, I'm okay with that
#
it's the duty of the saints to uplift
#
a bad thing, how can it be a bad thing
#
that we are coming to offer
#
whatever knowledge we know
#
and how can it be a bad
#
thing for you to actually understand how law
#
works in the real world
#
I haven't found an answer to that
#
into this whole sinner saints and sinners direction
#
it's just pettiness, human pettiness
#
I know but it is, but how do they
#
rationalize it for themselves
#
that we are not doing it for the money
#
we are doing it for the knowledge
#
you are using the knowledge for the money
#
I understand and I'm willing to accept that
#
why even engage with the rationalization
#
because that's what they throw at you right
#
we are writing academic stuff
#
we are doing serious work
#
you just need it for the money
#
I agree, this is like you are this great
#
I'm the tawaif, I agree
#
you would be a good tawaif, carry on
#
you were messing with me, either I'm messing with you or you are messing with me
#
you fucked that law thing, how were you a good tawaif
#
brought me back to earth
#
I wasn't passionate but I was a good lawyer, I was effective
#
I thought one of your secrets
#
one of your secrets as it were
#
is that at night you wear an
#
anarkali and go out to perform
#
I don't have the skills
#
I know skills I don't have
#
you have the anarkali but not the skills
#
I don't have the anarkali
#
but anarkali is easy to get
#
skills are the hard part
#
can't sing, can't dance
#
I'm told by most people that
#
if you make an effort and you put time into it
#
learn to dance and learn to sing
#
and learn to appreciate music
#
I can't, I mean I can't even tell
#
I'm really so useless at it
#
that I enjoy the music but if you change two notes in it
#
even on a piano, two keys next to each other
#
I wouldn't know the difference
#
you wouldn't know the difference but you'd react differently
#
because your neurons are processing it differently
#
if you played a song in one key
#
and then just shifted it down a little
#
then it becomes a ship of thesis sing to see
#
what is the point at which if you change one thing at a time
#
physical things I'll notice
#
so I'll notice what's in this room
#
have you fucking memorised my room already?
#
no, but I know most of it
#
so if you move stuff I'll know
#
it's the trick with knowing
#
what you can move, right?
#
for the reader, let me inform them that
#
this room is like packed
#
with all kinds of rubbish
#
including thousands of books
#
about your career as a tawaaf
#
or as a lawyer as you put it
#
what intrigues me is that
#
you worked as a senior partner
#
in one of India's leading law firms
#
two, an English solicitor practicing in London
#
three, partner in a leading US firm
#
left the law early and have had a flourishing career
#
doing whatever else you do and we'll come to that later
#
but tell me about your career as
#
take me through that journey, what was it like?
#
my internships with the labour lawyer first
#
then my second internship was in Delhi
#
who had a very small practice and very niche
#
it was international tax
#
which most people hadn't heard of
#
in my fourth year when I
#
but it had the same problem that he didn't know what to do
#
with interns and interns didn't know what to do with him
#
we had a very interesting case
#
but he was supposed to be the tenth to argue in that case
#
which basically means that you have nothing to say
#
there is nothing to say
#
you are there because there is a client
#
who has to be represented
#
and you are representing them
#
the day before we had to go to court
#
he just had a quick look at the papers
#
and thought there is nothing in it
#
and then he was curious to know who wrote this
#
who is now a senior advocate
#
who was his junior at that time
#
so I went and explained it to him
#
there was nothing in this
#
next morning we go to court
#
and the Chief Justice is in court
#
and then we have some ten minutes before lunch time
#
we said we are going to close this up at lunch
#
Mr Venugopal if you have anything to say say it now
#
and he makes his proposition
#
and suddenly the Chief Justice
#
sits up and says we haven't heard this one before
#
now nobody is prepared for this
#
because we thought we will say this
#
he will say no no no there is nothing in it
#
nobody expected this to have legs
#
so suddenly now there is a rushing around
#
where is that case, where are those books
#
find all that stuff, where is Murli
#
Murli is sitting behind
#
and the Chief's court is quite long
#
and as interns we couldn't come to the front
#
Murli is sitting at the end near the wall
#
and you can barely hear
#
those were days before mics
#
Chief there and I am looking at Chief like that
#
so suddenly at lunch time
#
get the cases, get this, get that and all that
#
and for the next two hours after lunch
#
so he finishes at 4 o'clock or whatever
#
Chief thanks him for this
#
and says this is very interesting we hadn't thought of this before
#
this is an important one
#
and again little act of generosity
#
previously, he could have just sat down
#
and taken credit for it
#
it still fills me up when I think of it
#
acknowledge Murli who is back there
#
who is my intern, who actually thought of this
#
whole opposition in all of these cases
#
that I could be a lawyer
#
because that was the big insecurity
#
through law school right
#
career banega ki nahi banega, kisi nahi bola nahi ki tu
#
and I took that when I went for my final
#
internship, ki boss humse ho sakta hai
#
thousand rupees, which was the exact
#
same amount of money he paid to his
#
so it was kind of a message to me
#
signal to aara tha ki you are at least
#
as good as people who already
#
have been working for me for a long
#
so when I went for my next internship
#
and that was with Nishad Desai here
#
and within the first month
#
he fell in love with me
#
because he was full of ideas
#
he was looking at what's going to happen next
#
unlike most people who were solving
#
problems from five years ago
#
he was looking at what's going to happen in the future
#
and he was happy to have
#
his people learn new stuff
#
which he didn't know anything about
#
I thought this is great
#
lot of research work for him
#
and did some more work for him
#
and that was the time in
#
95, it was Vajpayee right?
#
wasn't it still Narsimha Rao?
#
prime ministers council for
#
infrastructure development or something like that
#
which had all the big names in it
#
all these great guys in it
#
to a meeting with all of these guys
#
they thought I was some lawyer
#
but actually I was still a law student
#
to Delhi, came back and said
#
you prepare the note, let's prepare a proposal
#
and the proposal I prepared
#
was for creation of municipal bonds
#
we're trying to do it now
#
what had happened in the US
#
the Orange County crisis
#
had just happened, so how to avoid that kind of
#
situation where you're over leveraged
#
and the bonds are worth nothing
#
so I wrote up all of that as a
#
recommendation and sent it
#
he didn't pay me for it
#
so I went back to law school
#
and then I got a message from his secretary
#
we've got a few more things to do
#
I said no I can't come and work
#
because I have full time class
#
going to class is optional
#
law school was serious about it
#
so then he thought about nothing and he went back for a few days
#
again somebody else called me and said
#
you can work weekends can't you
#
I said yeah I can work weekends
#
so every Friday evening
#
I'd park my bike in the airport
#
and that is when Damania
#
so I'd take the 8.30 flight
#
come here at about 10 o'clock
#
and he used to live in Juhu
#
work through Saturday and Sunday
#
and take the first flight out on Monday morning
#
pick up my bike and go straight to
#
second year when we had campus recruitment
#
we did it for the batch above us
#
that was the first time it was ever done
#
and that tradition continues
#
that every batch does it for
#
so when our turn came for recruitment
#
Nishat wanted to recruit
#
I was in a really difficult position
#
because he wanted me to tell him
#
who in my class would be good to select
#
that's really ethical dilemma no?
#
yeah I just didn't want to feel responsible for
#
how important was honesty was number 2
#
in that list no after happiness
#
yeah but I don't like conflict
#
I don't like putting myself in
#
and I didn't know if I was right
#
my perception of someone shouldn't really
#
affect their careers they should have a fair chance at their careers
#
that I've been thinking about I realized that
#
honesty only brings unhappiness but anyway
#
in that case it would have if I had given my honest opinion
#
it would have made some people unhappy
#
potential of working with him
#
of course you're coming back
#
to join me right we don't discuss salary
#
two months before I graduate
#
he says I'm going to the US
#
summer to go visit clients and people
#
he knows and do the marketing stuff
#
I want you to come with me
#
so I go and apply for a visa
#
in Chennai and they look at me
#
as if I've come from Mars
#
claim that you're going to the US
#
if you haven't graduated how can you have clients
#
a person who hasn't graduated
#
to meetings with clients
#
so they're like we can't give you a visa
#
she said okay what will
#
we need invitation letters I said that's fine
#
so I've got Goldman Sachs I've got all these guys
#
so they give me and so my first
#
day at work is actually in New York
#
and we haven't negotiated salary yet
#
I come back and then we have
#
this awkward conversation about
#
how much salary will you take
#
tab hum mein thoda gurur tha
#
and I can't find a English word for it
#
arrogance is too strong
#
ghamand is different from gurur
#
but it's not coming to my head today because
#
teen kofi li modafine liya fir bhi
#
more than confidence but I don't know what that is
#
the highest salary paid on campus
#
per month which is a lot
#
because the law firms were paying 5000
#
where they gave me more than they promised
#
they promised something after a week they liked me so they said
#
we won't give you whatever we had promised 1200
#
and then I shifted to channel V in Bombay
#
and I got 12000 and everybody was like
#
kya kar liya bas kahan se kya ho raha hai
#
so aata andesan was paying 20
#
law firms were paying 45000
#
so that was my thing right
#
highest offer on campus is 20000
#
chutzpa I think that's a good word
#
so 21000 rupees a month
#
that is serious chutzpa
#
well done toh fir kya hua
#
anchoring effect bhi hai because if he comes with a counter offer
#
but there was never a question of that no
#
that was more money than
#
and more money than I thought I could spend
#
and did some incredible work
#
which wasn't doing the big deals
#
and wasn't known for very traditional work
#
so very small niche international tax
#
so whoever I knew I'd try and go and
#
meet and try and get some work
#
and I looked always older
#
how old are you? I just turned 50
#
because I've been giving this bullshit about how
#
I'm so much younger than you and all
#
and not really just a few months
#
exactly so every time on your podcast
#
when you say I'm always
#
I'm only 48 and something
#
whatever whenever you said it on your podcast
#
no I'm 49 now and it's horrible
#
instead of 49 I say late 40s
#
because it's parallelly with
#
the realization ki life begardhi hai
#
but we'll discuss that later but carry on
#
who had a small role to play
#
in the project financing of Birla AT&T
#
which today is Vodafone Idea
#
all the telecom disasters that we were
#
having they were trying
#
of a project without recourse
#
so only on the receivables
#
and it had never been done before
#
they had done it somewhat successfully
#
because the government was buying
#
so you had a power purchase agreement
#
and you knew this revenue was coming
#
so long as you produce the power you'll get the money
#
but for something like this where
#
there is no government customer
#
maybe you'll make the money maybe you won't
#
maybe people will use the phone maybe they won't
#
a minute it's highly unlikely
#
that you're going to be able to repay this debt
#
it's really really cutting edge of
#
so somebody knew somebody
#
as counsel for the state bank of India
#
they have done many similar
#
and they've all been acting for the banks for 20
#
years 30 years so every
#
known bank transaction is the same 4-5 guys
#
and so they all know how it is going to be done
#
it's all the same for me it is the first time
#
so I'm asking all the uncomfortable
#
you're supposed to be a trustee
#
but you're saying that if you
#
breach your fiduciary duties
#
we can't claim against you
#
then what is the point of having you as a trustee
#
they're saying but this is the way it's always been
#
you have to trust us that we will
#
and you go after us if we
#
don't but we have these
#
200 pages of documents basically
#
say we can do whatever we like and you can't do a damn
#
I'm going to accept this
#
so they were really offended
#
who is this little pipsqueak telling us
#
and I remember they got very
#
after a couple of these calls
#
and I figured that they had asked
#
obviously they must have some of my
#
friends in their offices
#
what is he doing on these calls he's only meant for
#
senior partners of law firms to be discussing with banks
#
and foreign banks and foreign
#
so next time I was there one of the guys
#
and I remember this so distinctly I remember the firm
#
must have been about 60 at the time
#
and he said something that was
#
crass but I remember it
#
you were in liquid form
#
wow, what was his name?
#
how did the others react?
#
those were the days when
#
it was okay to say these things
#
it was okay to say these things
#
but I don't see how it's relevant
#
to your role as a trustee
#
and I thought that was as good as
#
at least in these kind of matters
#
I've rarely had something that I've
#
so if I do a telecoms deal
#
so the first time we created a common
#
earlier pipelines would be owned by the oil companies
#
and suddenly the idea came up
#
that why can't we do it like the railways
#
we'll carry anybody's oil
#
but it had never been done in India before
#
we need a set of regulations, we need a set of contracts for it
#
drafting all of that stuff
#
as a first year associate
#
so ignorance is the same
#
whether you're 60 years or you're 22
#
we have the same level of ignorance
#
so why not take a punt on this
#
so we drafted a whole set for that
#
and the guy who was CFO at that time
#
eventually went on and became CFO of GMR
#
he and I were the only two guys
#
sitting and doing this whole thing
#
taking it to government, taking it to the banks
#
ensuring it was bankable
#
adding clauses that would make it bankable
#
so that was, you know, you had telecoms
#
I did the first NASDAQ listing of an Indian company
#
everybody thinks it's emphasis
#
nobody remembers it because
#
it was again a cute structure
#
we created a foreign parent
#
of an Indian company and listed the foreign parent
#
child is father of the man
#
is not an unusual structure
#
but in 96 nobody had done it
#
it's a company that doesn't exist in that form anymore
#
it's called IMR, Information Management Resources Inc
#
so having done that exercise
#
I was the only Indian lawyer who had done
#
then I thought which other Indian company
#
law school, I went to Infosys
#
Bangalore, some connection
#
so I found somebody, uncle ji
#
went and said you should list on NASDAQ
#
and here are 10 reasons why
#
you should list on NASDAQ
#
to which their response was we don't need the money
#
so I had to give them 10 reasons why
#
other than money they should list on NASDAQ
#
got investment bankers from overseas
#
when they were doing their marketing stuff
#
to go and pitch to them
#
eventually 11th March 1999
#
nobody even thought it was necessary
#
Indian market is doing well, why bother
#
so every one of these things was
#
whatever you can think of
#
full support, go and do it
#
and that was fantastic for me
#
and I also realized then that I get bored
#
so I can't do the same thing 2-3 times
#
you mean the same particular kind of case
#
or the law itself is a kind of case
#
so it has to be something different
#
what did you speak to in Infosys to convince
#
Mohandas Bhai had just joined
#
there was a guy called Ramesh Kamath
#
I met all of the greats
#
they weren't very different
#
yeah, the essence still remains
#
it was a different time
#
it used to be way out of town
#
there was nothing to eat in that area
#
so if you didn't eat at the
#
there was no food court
#
Sir, you went from Allahabad to Ravendrum
#
you didn't eat anything for 3 days
#
exactly, it was the same in this too
#
I'm not going to stay in your guest house
#
an apartment that they had taken
#
they had taken in Adarsh
#
who used to come from outside town
#
used to just sleep in a bed and disappear
#
so they thought I can just stay there
#
after all there is a bed and
#
what's the problem with it
#
I've come to do the work but
#
I need an environment where
#
I may have to do other work
#
and I can't do that in a place that is yours
#
somebody else, I may want to have phone calls
#
just not conducive for that
#
so right from the beginning I've kind of managed
#
to clients who I thought
#
were very important to me
#
they knew they were important to me, I knew they were important to me
#
I think there is a big problem that people have in negotiating fees
#
you know we want to have a relationship
#
but the relationship can only happen
#
I can't sell relationship
#
no next time we'll give you more work
#
more work at lower rates
#
quite early in life that
#
somebody else is doing it for cheaper
#
I really want to punish him by giving him
#
good work and he can do the crap work
#
and be filled with crap work
#
give him tons of work at 3000 rupees an hour
#
I don't want any work at 3000 rupees an hour
#
staring at the wall, I'm okay with it
#
so those things actually
#
worked out fine and those
#
were things I learnt in my first 3 years
#
to go back to an old theme was
#
so if I had some work in Delhi I'd call up my best friend
#
and say let's do it together
#
so if I had some work in
#
Madras I'd call up Kartik and say
#
if I could get my previous boss
#
what we now call an SCZ
#
in the Tutu Korean area
#
in 97 we thought of we could do in Tutu Korean
#
Kartik just started off
#
because I'll need somebody in
#
the government deal with
#
land in Tutu Korean, go visit it
#
and I still won't be able to do it better than
#
he's never done it before but he can do it
#
before the MRTP commission in
#
Sunil Lulla was there at the time
#
all different kinds of shocks
#
and we had never seen shots of those
#
pink and green and maroon
#
so glamorous today, one looks back and sees
#
so I did everything for Lulla
#
in fact my wife was also
#
tenancy agreement for your
#
memories of a lot of that and the fights
#
we had over the toilet with the landlord
#
in the canteen on the ground floor they had
#
incredible chutney with their dosas
#
and I've been to your office
#
I've been on the Fridays
#
when they used to have the pool table and the
#
drinks out and all of that
#
I was always there playing the pool, drinking the drinks
#
and then I wrote the first
#
those contracts were done
#
opposite Rhythm House on the first floor
#
so yeah I have fond memories of
#
so briefly you and I intersected
#
and I've been to the MTO
#
office quite a few times
#
coming from what we've seen of offices
#
I mean we didn't see alcohol
#
even if it was just beer
#
and hoops and pool and all that
#
we didn't see happy hours then
#
the whole concept of it being a
#
fun creative place to work
#
we didn't see any of that no
#
we hadn't seen any of that
#
so I did some work for MTV at that time
#
they got into trouble for
#
the Michael Jackson concert
#
so I was in court for that
#
make sure no injunction was granted
#
while he was doing whatever in somebody's
#
I had forgotten that incident
#
I didn't make it to the concert or the toilet but
#
delightful so now that we have had this touching
#
moment between us of discovering this whole
#
let's get back to your legal journey so
#
then it just happened that
#
I'd spent 3 years there did fantastic work
#
one of the projects was
#
which is still just now happening but at that time
#
of Karnataka State Finance Corporation
#
was I had gone to beg for some money
#
been selected to represent India
#
so this was in your student days
#
so I didn't have any money
#
Tata Alexi gave us some money
#
Mr Venugopal I wrote to
#
and said I have no money please give
#
money and I will never forget that
#
the Mahindras gave us some money
#
the managing director of KSFC
#
and that's how I got hold of
#
and he gave us some money
#
who apparently is a very lovable man
#
because his name only indicates he is very
#
Kadle sorry I was making
#
a joke you were agreeing with me
#
he is a really sweet guy
#
he came back to work for Tata Motors I think and retired as
#
Tata Alexi at that time and so he gave us some money
#
so when this opportunity
#
I went and met her and she made the connection with the principal
#
secretary in the chief minister's office
#
and started talking about how we can
#
build out a legal regime
#
because everywhere else the
#
railways had built the metro
#
which became a union government project
#
they didn't want the railways to build this
#
I went back and found a way
#
what distinguishes a tramway from a railway
#
what's the difference both run on rails
#
what's the big difference
#
why should there be a different law
#
for tramways and railways
#
a tramway intersects a lot with the roads
#
you have railway crossings
#
elevated rails and roads
#
is an elevated railway a railway or a tramway
#
that's a very good question
#
is Kit Kat a chocolate or a biscuit
#
anything that runs on rails but within the municipal system
#
and who decides what the municipal limit is
#
the state government decides
#
the whole of Maharashtra
#
for the purposes of building
#
and came up with this idea
#
so you have to do something new
#
that the state government doesn't know
#
otherwise it won't listen to you
#
they decided they will get consultants
#
they will do a feasibility report
#
and they want international lawyers
#
who know something about private railways
#
so we found an English firm
#
that had done the privatization of rail track
#
and did all the consulting work
#
in that came two partners
#
with whom I worked with
#
and in a casual conversation
#
after I worked on it for a bit
#
in typical very English style
#
for an international firm
#
do you intend to get married
#
it's a very weird way of asking a question
#
and I didn't get it at that time
#
you missed another signal
#
no I have not considered
#
which is straight answer to a straight question
#
which misses the nuance of it all
#
that it is not a hypothetical
#
the question is will you marry me
#
which I missed completely
#
and I guess he figured that
#
so nothing happened at that meeting
#
in 98 I had gone to Vancouver
#
it's very interesting, it's happening now
#
we are doing broadband via satellite
#
on the regime for regulating
#
broadband via satellite
#
I don't have much interest in regulation
#
so it was interesting times
#
when you could think of
#
and I guess these are also
#
incredibly interesting times
#
they are very interesting
#
but I can think back to
#
interesting now and it seems like
#
we never thought of it before
#
but over time I realized that
#
actually it was thought of before
#
I am aware of this track record of pre-seance
#
that you have where you are
#
doing a bunch of things in 1995
#
turned out to be incredibly pre-seant
#
whether it is speculating
#
on the future importance of
#
it is DNA testing and so on
#
tell me about some of these and also tell me that
#
how does one think about
#
helped you be pre-seant
#
was it a particular habit of always
#
actively engaging with whatever knowledge
#
and information you came about
#
was it a cross disciplinary
#
sort of you know using different frameworks
#
from places like obviously I want to hear
#
about these great success stories of pre-seance
#
for 25 years before something happens you are
#
saying yeh hoga but as much as that
#
I want to know how you think
#
it's connecting the dots
#
it's like some people see pictures
#
and then I will find the parallel
#
this happened in the election commission
#
this never happened before
#
in the election commission
#
now if it could happen in the election commission
#
then what are similar to that
#
I was there in court when the Session case was argued
#
give my listeners a gist of this particular example
#
we had a chief election commissioner
#
and the government decided that
#
although he had been a very loyal civil servant
#
and he comes from the same
#
and he said some not very nice things about
#
Palakkadaiyars he said that
#
we are only fit for three things in life
#
that was his view of what
#
we should be doing in life
#
and he was a civil servant
#
a very loyal civil servant
#
in a sense are you the first and the third
#
I am not a civil servant
#
I didn't mean literally
#
then the government decided that
#
he was trying to clean up the election system
#
and he did a lot for election reform
#
and to this day he is held to be
#
one of those pioneers of election reforms
#
decided that they have to somehow
#
so they appointed two more election commissioners
#
and that is how now we have an election commission
#
saying that there must be something different about the chief
#
he can't just be one of the three
#
Supreme Court said nothing to him
#
but he had a huge impact on
#
politics and the constitution
#
we don't have a similar
#
and I had been following
#
what was happening in the UK
#
and we do a lot of comparative work in the law
#
and the UK is something we try
#
the UK has something similar
#
and so when I was doing this comparison
#
I saw that there was this parallel
#
and I looked at what the NAO was doing
#
and how it was an independent body
#
parliament took it very seriously
#
government was scared of the NAO
#
and I said why isn't it happening in India
#
CAG produces the reports
#
and I read all the CAG reports
#
and found that it says some very startling things
#
but the government is never held
#
to account on any of these things
#
and did nothing for a very long time
#
can suddenly assert itself
#
surely the CAG can do it too
#
and it just happened that
#
who expects a first year lawyers piece to be published
#
my wacky ideas actually will get published
#
so I had a piece in the business today
#
I had a piece in the business today
#
I had a piece in the business standard
#
I had a piece in the observer
#
so I started writing then
#
all the wacky stuff that I had
#
my final year in law school was
#
a course on law and medicine
#
despite my corporate law professors
#
we were two corporate law professors
#
both wanted me to take their course
#
I would have pissed off the other
#
so I decided to take neither of those two
#
women in the law and law and medicine
#
for women or for medicine
#
did that little small decision
#
change your life later on?
#
it did, so I wrote a paper
#
in my paper on law and medicine
#
and why lawyers and judges
#
they don't understand the science and they don't understand the statistics
#
I wrote it, got published
#
in 2018 India decides to have
#
I'm not expected to know anything about this
#
because I understand the fundamental flaw with this thing
#
and I had done the research on the UK
#
and the US and all of this
#
the law had moved on there
#
so I had to do a little bit of updating
#
so I published a series with Bloomberg Quint
#
Menaka was very sweet to publish them for me
#
and I thought nobody cares about this
#
this is India, nobody cares about these things
#
despite how scary it is
#
the studio and we did a clip
#
a 30 minute piece on it
#
nobody cares about this
#
suddenly I get a phone call
#
my name is Rajeev Srivastava
#
I'm calling from the Rajya Sabha
#
I thought it was a prank call
#
I thought someone from the Rajya Sabha
#
I thought this is a scam
#
he will ask for a deposit
#
this is an advance money fraud
#
he said do you have his address
#
one week nothing happened
#
somebody else called me and said
#
my name is Varun Santosh
#
I work with Mr. Jaram Ramesh
#
I actually know the guy
#
he does work with Jaram Ramesh
#
this is somebody definitely scamming me
#
or somebody playing a prank
#
some school friend of mine
#
who knew that I had written this piece
#
decided to prank me on it
#
and there was no way I knew who he was
#
two weeks later whenever
#
I haven't prepared anything
#
so I quickly wrote up all my research
#
testimony I was going to give
#
and I didn't know anybody who had given testimony to parliament
#
sadly not all of them turned up
#
it was an important issue they all felt about it
#
and not even half the committee
#
but all credit to Jaram Ramesh
#
ensured he asked really pointed questions
#
encouraged everybody else in the committee
#
actually challenged a lot of things that we said
#
you read out your testimony and be done
#
it was really good interaction
#
and I thought what are the chances of this happening
#
I write something 20 or something years ago
#
chairman of the parliamentary standing committee
#
to come and give evidence
#
stuff that happens to me
#
would be relevant or placed any significance on
#
in strange places in my life
#
really strange places in my life
#
it just reminds me that
#
in 1995 before I graduated
#
my mom bought something
#
it was called a combi pack
#
which was you got a cooker
#
and sold it off as a combi pack
#
so he thought my discount there on
#
that yes it is less than the MRP
#
but it doesn't have the pan in it
#
it may be cheaper than the cooker
#
but that's not what I bought
#
so the retailer was basically a pan-chor
#
and she was quite feisty with that
#
and she fought with them
#
the chap who replied to her letters
#
was the company secretary
#
nobody will remember this
#
is a guy called Venkat Krishnan
#
they needed to get some tools back
#
he is friends with my dear friend Dayan Krishnan
#
so he asked Dayan, he said I have this tiny little matter
#
I need someone in Bombay to do it
#
so my friend Dayan Krishnan says you must go to Murali
#
I have never done litigation in my life of this kind
#
I do whatever it takes, they get whatever it is
#
Mr. Shankaran calls me up and says
#
we want to be on the board of TTK
#
what are the chances of that?
#
somebody remembers something from
#
and 2015 I get onto the board
#
they kept a pan from you and took a board seat
#
I don't know what it is
#
but it is the story of my life
#
suddenly being significant
#
how important is the cultivation of generosity
#
like you have referred to
#
your being the recipient of generosity
#
and equally you have spoken
#
not in those terms but spoken about
#
the ways in which you try to pay it back
#
whether it is by teaching or whether it is by
#
recommending it to friends or sending links to me
#
which is also generosity
#
have you been intentional about it?
#
is it within the profession
#
is it a norm or is it an exception?
#
I think I was naturally inclined to it
#
it perhaps sprang from insecurity
#
in my law school days that I want to be part of the group
#
and the only way I can be part of the group
#
is to actually tell you
#
and the way I can show value to you
#
is these kind of things
#
it is an expectation of reciprocity
#
so I am not saying it was altruistic then
#
and then with professional life
#
I needed somebody in Madras
#
so I will do it obviously with my friend
#
I need somebody in Delhi so I will do it with my friend
#
but I discovered that this is really an important thing
#
at a huge handicap in London
#
I didn't have family, I didn't have contacts
#
so how do I build a practice where people will send me work
#
there is no way I am going to get any
#
even within my colleagues
#
nobody is going to give me any work
#
because they all grew up together
#
went to the same schools
#
and they have all been together for 4 years
#
so the relationship is already built
#
there is no way I could have cracked that
#
so the only way I could
#
was by doing this act of generosity
#
was by doing this act of generosity
#
so I would constantly look at the firm's clients
#
so I would constantly look at the firm's clients
#
think of ways in which we could speak to the client
#
this is a company that is likely to be sold
#
here is who I think a potential buyer could be
#
even before the investment banks
#
I would go to the partner at this firm and say your client is so and so
#
here is the opportunity to buy this company
#
I know the folks at this company
#
you know the folks at this client
#
can we get them to meet?
#
can we pitch them the idea?
#
before the investment banks go to them
#
but they may not hire us
#
but they may not hire us
#
but people are not assholes
#
you do somebody a good turn
#
even if they decide not to hire you
#
you brought me an opportunity
#
I cashed the opportunity and I didn't hire you
#
next time he will give it to you
#
I have always trusted that
#
I have always trusted that
#
so I will continue to do it
#
even if you don't hire me on this one
#
so you have taken the opportunity
#
hired another lawyer, did the deal
#
but it will hurt your conscience
#
and you will want to let go of that thing sometime
#
so at some point in time
#
when I may not have pitched something to you
#
you will come back and give me some work
#
and that's how I built my own practice
#
and I said that to somebody else
#
at the American firm which I went to
#
so Arnold Potter is a huge firm
#
and I told this at the partners meeting
#
more than three parties to a dispute
#
the two guys who are fighting
#
and the one who has a stake in it
#
in trying to find if this one is winning or that one is winning
#
antitrust, large tort litigation
#
you are one of the three top firms in DC
#
so what do you have to do?
#
so your ability to win a client
#
is limited to answering the phone when it rings
#
that's all you have to do right?
#
whereas in London, you are an unknown firm
#
so I have to find excuses
#
to go find clients, pitch them ideas
#
tell them something new to do
#
or tell them what the problem is that they haven't seen
#
so I have to constantly
#
and I said there are only two things that I can do
#
either the chap at the other end of the line
#
and is worried about it
#
and I call him up and say
#
hey, I realize that you got this problem
#
and he says how do you know?
#
because I know the industry and I know what's happening here
#
so I know this is a problem
#
and I think I have a solution, here is a two minute summary of the solution
#
what do you think he is going to react to that?
#
he is going to say thank you, you saved my ass
#
that can be one outcome
#
really? I didn't know this problem existed
#
please come and explain it to me
#
so there is no downside
#
him or sending him material
#
to do two things, one I am thinking about you
#
I am thinking about your problem
#
and I have invested my time in finding a solution for you
#
how can a client say no to you?
#
no one has ever said no to you
#
so the winning is not at the pitch
#
that I would invest time in
#
to find out where are these opportunities
#
who are these clients, track the clients
#
I had a ticker running on my screen
#
and there were not many lawyers who had tickers running
#
on their screens, to see who is doing what where
#
what is the market news, what are the wires saying
#
those are the days of facts
#
I love the hunger, I just think it would have been such a tragedy
#
if you were born in a really rich family
#
one of these elite families and all of that
#
and you had an easier path to the top
#
but you didn't have the hunger
#
I would have enjoyed it more
#
there is no great joy in hungry
#
and you of course heard all my episodes by now
#
so you already know what I am talking about
#
episode with Roshan Abbas and Vikram Sathe
#
where Vikram spoke about Sunandan Lele's
#
wherever he visits someone
#
he will carry something
#
some small thing along with him
#
one way of thinking about generosity
#
is that the naive way of thinking about generosity
#
is good if you just do it
#
out of some pure emotion
#
but it is bad when it is instrumental
#
and you are thinking it will be useful in the future
#
but I think the proper way to think about it
#
is that it is just normatively a good thing
#
and it will always bring good
#
we are trying to split hairs when we say
#
or do I expect a quid pro quo
#
I don't think we should judge generosity by that
#
intention kuch bhi ho kiya kya aapne
#
correct, and how do you make the other person feel
#
see if the other person
#
you come across as patronizing
#
so it makes it look as if I am doing you a favor
#
and rubbing your nose in dirt for it
#
so I think that is how we can
#
if you want to split hairs
#
we can do it at that level
#
how do we make the other person feel
#
like you are doing him a big favor
#
and rubbing his nose in dirt
#
you are doing it in a kind and gentle way
#
and it is accepted in the same
#
I am going to show you some generosity
#
in a kind and gentle way
#
I think we should have some beverages
#
and then come back for more
#
have you always wanted to be a writer
#
but never quite gotten down to it
#
well I would love to help you
#
since April 2020 I have enjoyed teaching
#
27 cohorts of my online course
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and an online community has now sprung up
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we have workshops, a newsletter to showcase the work of students
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through 4 webinars spread over 4 weekends
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I share all I know about the craft
#
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there are many exercises, much interaction
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and a lovely and lively community
#
the course costs Rs 10,000 plus GST
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if you are interested head on over to register
#
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that is indiaankar.com slash clear writing
#
doesn't require god given talent
#
just a willingness to work hard and a clear idea
#
of what you need to do to refine your skills
#
welcome back to the scene on the on scene
#
I am chatting with Murali Neelkanthan
#
I already owe him a small fortune
#
because of the many hours he has spent
#
at my place today but hey
#
labor of love whether you are recording or talking
#
and all of that so it works
#
and Murali I want to ask you
#
a question that both dovetails into the time
#
you spend in London but before that comes from
#
something that you were speaking about earlier
#
where you spoke about being an
#
outsider in college and so on and so forth
#
and you know I often say that
#
self pity is an act of ego
#
so I will be suitably egoistic
#
and talk about the times I lament
#
that or the times I reflect
#
on how I was sort of an outsider
#
was part of whether it was
#
television in the 90s or journalism in the
#
80s even the 5 years of
#
poker that I played professionally where
#
I might have been successful but I wasn't
#
quite ever part of a tribe
#
or even now in podcasting
#
or even in the economics and policy world
#
despite my deep engagements with them and
#
the friendships I might have or the literary
#
that it's always the outsider
#
always a very high and I think that in one way
#
I mean the negative of that of course is
#
the aloneness that you often feel
#
the positive of that is that
#
the reason that you are an outsider
#
is that you're always looking at things with
#
a new lens you haven't accepted the
#
conventions or the fashions of the day
#
and so on and it's part of the game
#
and it's part of who you are and there's nothing you can do about it
#
so just cultivate the melancholy
#
and stop feeling sorry for yourself
#
and I think another broader context in
#
which this can be fleshed out is perhaps
#
like when you went to London
#
where you are again an outsider
#
more tangible way that you can at least
#
identify the roots of the outsider-ness
#
and figure out ways to fix it
#
so tell me a little about
#
all of this what do you feel of the theme and what was
#
you're right at least when I was
#
in London I knew I was an outsider
#
and I could figure out why
#
I think I'm an outsider
#
which I couldn't do in law school
#
I couldn't get into a tribe and I didn't know why they wouldn't let me
#
into the tribe and I didn't know why I was an outsider
#
or I at least felt like an outsider
#
arrived in London at a time when they hadn't hired
#
so big law firms had never
#
seen Indian lawyers before
#
they had seen Kiwi lawyers
#
South African lawyers, Aussie lawyers
#
obviously European lawyers but they
#
never had an Indian lawyer arrive there before
#
so it was some kind of a novelty
#
had encountered the problem that I was going to encounter
#
which means I didn't have credit history so I couldn't have a bank account
#
if I didn't have a bank account I couldn't rent an apartment
#
so basic things that you expect
#
figuring out how to do these
#
things for the first time
#
getting people to help you to do stuff with this
#
either the professional circle or the social
#
even if I went to the firm
#
who would give me work?
#
everybody who trained there
#
university know each other, they give
#
the partners know the people and know what they can do
#
so they give each other work
#
so for me to establish that I can actually do stuff
#
English lawyers and the Kiwi lawyers can do
#
and that was quite a bit of a challenge
#
till I actually got on to do the first few deals
#
and they saw that he can actually do stuff
#
moving from Bangalore to
#
was not something you worry about
#
because you come to Bombay, you're at work
#
people at work become your friends
#
their friends become your friends, you get invited to
#
their house, you do social activities together
#
they become friends and you have a social circle
#
and I have no one with whom I can have
#
and I have nothing to do in the evening
#
these are days before the internet, early days
#
so you can go home to your apartment
#
and cook yourself a meal and watch TV
#
and go to sleep and do the
#
I didn't know anybody from work and nobody was going to invite me
#
so it was a real real real challenge for me
#
and it took me a while to figure out
#
and I reached there in the winter
#
and I'm not used to this
#
not having sunlight also
#
kind of messed around a little bit I think
#
with my routine and my head
#
I did, but it just felt very odd
#
I felt like I had unfinished the evening
#
it was really a challenge to get to work
#
you feel like you have to hit the sack
#
because it's all dark outside
#
so it messed around with me a little bit I think
#
and I still don't work very well
#
so I like to wake up with the sun and work during the day
#
it's bright and nice and do all of that
#
so it's a combination of these things that
#
I found myself really really uncomfortable
#
and I had to find a way of cracking it
#
with its clients every Monday evening
#
and in the summers the sun sets
#
so you do get a good deal of sun
#
so if you start at 5 and finish at 8
#
there's still enough sunlight to finish the game
#
so I thought how bad can it be
#
so I signed up to play cricket
#
and that's how I kind of
#
and I guess if you can bowl some offspin and you have a name
#
can't be a bad thing, how bad can it be
#
how good was your offspin?
#
I was quite a dogged batsman as well
#
really need doggedness but I guess
#
but you have to understand
#
that everybody is down at least 3-4 beers
#
so the one sober guy actually can do quite a lot of damage
#
so that was my way into
#
actually getting people
#
being noticed on transactions
#
for what work I actually do
#
so people at least know that hey
#
if you need some help on this corporate commercial stuff
#
there's that Indian guy
#
he's quite good, I played cricket with him
#
and that to me was a very unusual
#
thing that you're going to give me work
#
because you played cricket with me
#
that seems to be the way it works
#
that they think you're a good guy because
#
you turned out to play cricket
#
and then eventually they give you the work and you do a good job
#
and everything works well
#
but it was really really difficult
#
to connect with me socially because the topics
#
that they spoke about or discussed
#
it's a language that just didn't make any sense
#
are you coming to the boat race?
#
I had no clue what the boat race was
#
there's an annual Oxford
#
Cambridge boat race that occurred to me
#
I didn't know that it was such a big deal
#
I mean two guys, what's the big deal?
#
it seems to be the big social occasion
#
there was the Henley regatta
#
I had no clue what the Henley regatta was
#
I even ended up playing softball
#
and they all laughed at the way I played
#
because the ball arrives
#
like a full toss in cricket, right?
#
and we're not taught to hit a cross
#
so I hit it over the guy who pitched
#
and they found it incredibly funny
#
so I got roped into playing softball
#
on some days and cricket on some other days
#
and turned up for every game
#
so when everybody else used to cop out by saying
#
I've got work, some client is called
#
I've got something to deliver
#
there'd always be a man shot, right?
#
and I was always that man
#
I'm just thinking a sporting introvert
#
is so much better than a non-sporting introvert
#
because if I was in your place
#
bowled Rahul Dravid two times out of three
#
but that is in office cricket with that squeezy kind of ball
#
but I can't play actually
#
I would suck at all of this
#
do something for the sake of being
#
I hear what you're saying
#
but for me there was no other way out
#
I'm more keen than talented
#
that's how I describe my
#
and I will take it seriously and I will
#
whether it actually translates into
#
let's say positive outcomes
#
I was the best cricketer
#
you were certainly not the best Murali in the world
#
the best off-spinning Murali
#
correct and you remember the Waugh brothers, right?
#
you're not even the best batsman in your own household
#
you know Mark Waugh's nickname?
#
because he's a forgotten Waugh
#
very interesting that people would volunteer
#
to play cricket and they couldn't find volunteers
#
so the other part of that was
#
we went on an annual tour of Cambridge
#
it was very interesting because
#
we'd play the whole day
#
and there would be as usual university drinking in the night
#
and then you have to play again
#
and then the next morning
#
and since I was the only
#
who do you think at 10am
#
will be able to open the batting?
#
my friend Kartik Seshadri didn't think I had
#
Sunday was very valuable in London
#
your values became strategic
#
and the people we were likely to recruit
#
would play in those matches
#
but it's something I learned
#
that you can't hide on a cricket pitch
#
your true character comes out
#
not to show it, there will be an incident
#
there will be some point in time when you will get
#
angry with your teammates
#
frustrated with the outcome
#
little things about whether you will fit
#
the culture of the firm or not
#
and the culture at Simmons
#
were the best place to work
#
so they were super nice
#
truly liberal in a whole lot of things
#
so they had gender neutral
#
so we had openly gay partners
#
nobody thought anything different
#
we had equal parental leave
#
so whole lot of things that made it a fantastic place to work
#
very, very nice atmosphere
#
so it was a really important thing as a value
#
for them, they always made it to the Sunday Times
#
best places to work list
#
it was a huge value for them
#
and again for me it was a big change
#
you had the Indian office environment
#
the law firms which was not very nice
#
but then suddenly there is no social life
#
so you get this warm professional space
#
and then you have a cold
#
that creates a whole lot of
#
to work in a place like that
#
always so shaped by the places
#
where we work and the work that we do
#
I think it does, because I found that
#
to actually work well for me
#
that I don't have to make personal connections
#
that I can treat you like a colleague
#
no strings attached to that
#
you are a colleague and that's a colleague
#
here when I came back and that was my
#
was that I had changed to that system
#
people who work for you expect you to be their
#
to cry on, be so many things
#
you're just my colleague or I'm just your boss
#
and that is it, we'll be nice, civil, polite
#
courteous to each other
#
and that's it, here there are no boundaries
#
when I came back and people were coming telling me
#
their sob stories, I'm like really uncomfortable
#
with it, I don't want to know your sob stories
#
I don't want to tell you mine
#
I don't want to know your problems and please don't tell me yours
#
I don't want to know all your
#
personal problems, I don't want to know anything about
#
your life, talk about work
#
I come at so and so time, I leave early
#
I don't want to go out for drinks with you
#
I don't want to take you anywhere
#
I don't want to go to water park
#
clearly you're referring to some specific
#
team building exercises
#
these two stupid things like that
#
and I found it really really awkward
#
that when somebody suggested
#
this water park thing to me
#
I'm not going to take my clothes off
#
it's nothing to do with whatever
#
but I'm not taking my clothes off
#
that is an interesting way to build teams
#
with anyway, yeah take your clothes off
#
thoughtless that people
#
and it's not a gender thing, whether women
#
want to take their clothes off or men want to
#
I don't want to take my clothes off
#
in front of people at work
#
and so water park is not going to be
#
an option, I don't want to do team activities
#
because it's really awkward
#
for us to be wanting to do team activities
#
and the team activities end up being silly stuff
#
really awkward silly stuff which
#
it's not funny, it is not fun
#
I think here also isomorphic mimicry has happened
#
that we adopt a lot of these
#
which really don't fit here
#
and it doesn't fit the schedule
#
of people right, because people have to
#
travel two hours to get back home
#
and then come back in the morning
#
so if you say that we are going to do whatever
#
in the evening, we are going to have whatever
#
activity you have planned for the evening
#
it doesn't work for people
#
so it's going to exclude
#
perhaps the most important people in your group
#
or they will come at the cost
#
I don't think a lot of the HR
#
people think through any of these things
#
that they will do this, they will do that, they will do the activity
#
and people don't want to do it, and as a boss I didn't want to do it
#
more than anything else I'd say
#
listen, I have to get home at 5.30
#
I can't be doing this thing
#
so whatever it is you want to do
#
I don't approve of it, and there is no need to do
#
any of this team building stuff because it doesn't help
#
vulnerabilities and behaving like
#
clowns, it's not really my sense
#
of how I want to bond with my team
#
that big difference from
#
what we do here versus what we do there
#
I prefer what we do there
#
what's right or wrong, it's just that I felt comfortable
#
having a professional relationship at work
#
anything personal there, it's very nice
#
but nobody invited me home there, I didn't
#
invite anybody home, we didn't have any other
#
even if we went out for a meal it would be with a client
#
something like that, it was never
#
social in that sense, I think it was a big
#
I don't know if it increased
#
that sense of alienation
#
but it definitely told me that
#
I have to work really hard
#
to have those conversations with them
#
Monday morning conversation would be
#
but I live next to the office
#
so I don't have commuting stories
#
would be about football
#
I didn't really support a team
#
frankly they all looked the same to me
#
so I didn't understand the history of the teams
#
and the history of the culture of the club
#
and how one club is different from the other
#
and why you should have so many clubs didn't really
#
so all of these things I had to learn
#
that what is the football season, what's the
#
rugby season, what's the cricket season
#
here we play throughout the year
#
and why they are the way they are
#
from the outside if you look at it
#
it seems like it must be the working class sport
#
but it's the exact opposite, only public school kids
#
that's a really good point because rugby is all the big beefy kids
#
but they are all public school kids
#
to you right? It didn't occur to me, it's like an accident
#
it should have been the opposite
#
it's completely opposite
#
these kind of insights into figuring
#
in this, who are the guys in that, who are the guys
#
who play cricket, cricket is
#
an elitist sport because only the public school kids
#
play cricket, they are the same guys who play
#
rugby, not the guys who play football
#
or hockey, so just understanding
#
I used all of that when I came back
#
to India while working with the charity
#
there is so much more to it
#
so for example if you took a kid
#
who could speak, read and write English
#
wouldn't be able to answer a competitive exam
#
question paper for the national law school
#
things to which they don't relate
#
so for example, I'll give you a simple one
#
they don't watch tennis
#
it's not really a sport that rural India
#
set scores and asked who won
#
how many do you think will get it right?
#
I wouldn't judge anyone who got it wrong
#
but that's the question right?
#
you don't go by total number of games won
#
sets, but how do I know the rule?
#
I can read English, I can read math
#
it's so easy to think that
#
this is English, you are an idiot, you can't figure out
#
because you were at the receiving end of that shit
#
a lot of what I experienced there
#
so you understand discrimination better
#
even if it's unintentional
#
they are not bad people
#
they are just ignorant, they don't understand
#
how can you expect them to walk in my shoes
#
so that's a very high expectation
#
to say walk in my shoes
#
that's not where I walk
#
for me it was a big big big
#
it's getting much easier now
#
because I think in the last 15 years
#
lot more Indian lawyers, lot of firms
#
have hired directly from campus
#
and they are more aware of these things
#
those kids have become partners
#
there's more acceptance of us there
#
as I said, at least with cricket
#
I had a social life of some kind
#
on the weekends I used to play for a team
#
Glamorgan versus whatever
#
and this is classic English humor
#
and call it the Nashers
#
and they were a weekend amateur team
#
that he was a pretty good bowler
#
he was a good medium pacer
#
I think for that particular over
#
he tried to spin or something
#
and Ravi Shastri made it happen
#
but that's when I understood
#
it is that you will name it after
#
someone considered a loser in the popular culture
#
and who's only known for that
#
but for that nobody would remember him
#
so again it just happened that somebody sent out an email
#
saying I play for this team on the weekends
#
can somebody from the firm volunteer
#
for this club called the Nashers
#
so at least some kind of
#
instead of staring at a wall on a weekend
#
I got some cricket games in
#
and I got some decent results
#
brown man bowling off spin called Murali
#
as they say about the more famous Murali
#
and his arms are everywhere
#
his arms are everywhere
#
so we didn't do all that
#
but it also taught me that
#
I was a better cricketer then
#
than I was in law school
#
because I never thought of it
#
I think we are more thoughtful about
#
especially if one is not coached
#
I think one of your great quotes is
#
youth is wasted on the young
#
that when we are young we have the energy and the passion
#
and by the time we get the wisdom and the terror
#
it's too late, it's all over
#
that the wisdom came to me in my 30s
#
and I actually managed to execute
#
I made a lot of money right
#
I don't think, you know once I
#
what is the worst that could have happened
#
we had this discussion during the break
#
worst case scenario is covered
#
what's the worst that can happen
#
and what the opportunity cost is
#
so I'm going to London, I went with two suitcases
#
what's the worst that will happen
#
will get lost at Heathrow
#
I sit on the suitcase and go
#
you don't remember the story
#
no what's the worst that will happen
#
I'll go there, they won't like me
#
they'll say you are a useless Indian, go back
#
someone will give me work
#
I'll come back and I'll be fine
#
so there is no downside to that
#
and every year that I worked
#
in London it only got better
#
because at least the one
#
good thing there is you get honest feedback
#
that it's not like here
#
people just avoid having
#
honest feedback conversations
#
the feedback was very good
#
and I had a very good mentor who
#
taught me essential skills of lawyering which we don't teach here
#
which is attention to detail
#
we don't teach right here
#
what difference does it make
#
and that's also the client's attitude
#
so when you say why is it that lawyers
#
get flak here or clients don't value lawyers
#
a choice, you have a good lawyer
#
who will make you a perfect set of documents
#
mediocre lawyer who will make you a crap set of documents
#
the client looks at it and says
#
let's say I have to pay 10 lakhs to the good guy
#
and 1 lakh to the bad guy
#
irrespective of what I pay
#
this damn thing is going to court
#
I don't know what the judge is going to say
#
the 10 lakhs, the risk is the same
#
what am I paying 9 lakhs more for
#
anyway the client is only going to pay me a lakh of rupees
#
let me ask you to produce crap
#
so there is no incentive for excellence in this country
#
it's absolutely non-negotiable
#
that everybody is providing
#
a level of service that is excellent
#
so then you have to play in the game
#
you can't make mistakes
#
but over here isn't there still
#
a competitive advantage for the people
#
who have the foresight to take the 10 lakh guy
#
because the courts are shit you are saying
#
you make a great set of documents
#
let's say the judge is very good
#
after 5 years of hearing
#
you spend another 5 years
#
and this litigation has cost you
#
after that it goes to supreme court
#
so in 15 years you have spent 10 crores of rupees
#
you still don't have the money
#
after you win all 3 you have to now go and
#
collect the money from the other guy
#
then the second round starts
#
so your best case scenario is
#
in 30 years you may get the money
#
whether you spend 10 crores, 10 lakhs at the first time
#
or 1 lakh at the first time
#
the government has lost
#
lost in the high court, lost in the supreme court
#
is unable to do anything to get
#
the government is threatening that we will pass legislation
#
saying that we don't have to pay
#
does India have a rule of law
#
I think we don't understand the term at all
#
rule of law is not about
#
a law exists and can be executed
#
the rule of law means that there are
#
principles that we follow
#
we don't follow any principles on law
#
there are no principles
#
I can't discern after 30 years of practicing the law
#
what are those key principles
#
in the constitution we can't say it
#
is democracy a principle
#
no I don't see it around
#
is secularism a principle
#
is equality a principle
#
these words are meaningless
#
there is fraternity in the constitution
#
I don't see any fraternal
#
so what is there in the constitution
#
it's anathema to equality
#
but I only see arbitrariness
#
what is the opposite of arbitrariness
#
I don't know but I see a lot of arbitrariness
#
so we can say all of these things
#
and the courts haven't helped
#
every time somebody says supreme court has said great things
#
I tell them look at the final result
#
you had a very famous case of
#
Olga Tellis where it said pavement dwellers
#
you have a right to life
#
brilliant it keeps getting quoted
#
we still have pavement dwellers
#
we still get them harassed by the municipality
#
so where is the right to life
#
and in the end if you read that judgement
#
it didn't say that you will
#
rehabilitate the pavement dwellers
#
so they said all of those things and then said
#
Menaka Gandhi you said you have a right to a passport
#
people are constantly being denied
#
you have the Kashmiri politicians daughter who has been denied
#
what are we doing about it
#
you say all of these things
#
supreme court says all of these things
#
but no actual result for the individual
#
you said aadhar cannot be used by private players
#
you can say all of these wonderful things
#
that the law is what you say it is
#
in the way you say it is
#
by that definition we don't have the rule of law
#
is it possible to pinpoint
#
one area that is a key fatal flaw
#
in this or are there various
#
and unless you fix them all you can't fix this
#
I think as a society we have
#
and I'm not saying this in a flippant way
#
after having experienced
#
one set of rules on three different
#
as a lawyer so the rules of professional ethics
#
are more or less the same
#
that the exact same rule
#
in three different countries or at least two
#
India being the exception the other two being the same
#
so clearly it is not about the rule
#
to follow the law we don't like to speak the truth
#
we don't like to do things
#
properly because there's no cost
#
so everybody can do anything they like because there's
#
no cost to it so in the UK
#
because you're willing to pay at least half a million
#
so that's the cost of losing
#
so you're cutting out all the frivolous nonsense
#
here everybody can go and file a
#
petition in any court and they will admit it
#
and you might even get some relief
#
but that is also necessary
#
it is necessary to allow people to
#
access provided they have a fair chance
#
that is your test there
#
if you have a fair chance of winning you're willing to wager
#
you know if you create a barrier
#
like if there is a barrier like that
#
in a poor country like India then
#
law becomes something that only the rich
#
no the rule is the same
#
in India the code of civil procedure
#
side will pay the winning side's cost
#
once the case is finished
#
the winning side will hand over
#
what its costs have been
#
they will be in line with what was
#
discussed at the beginning of the case
#
which is we estimate what our costs are going to be
#
and at the end we give you an actual
#
and if the other side thinks it's too much
#
you can hire the registrar of the court
#
he will look at it and say yes or no
#
it's too much too little whatever but you get costs
#
the cost of fighting that battle you're going to get
#
and when they do award costs it's like 10,000 rupees
#
which doesn't even pay for
#
one hour of that lawyer's time
#
be a barrier to access to justice
#
the people who want access to justice
#
it actually makes it easier to fight these battles
#
because lawyers will say
#
I'm willing to fight this case
#
because the costs are going to be paid by the other side
#
you have a winning case
#
so the loser is going to pay for it
#
now we're saying that you have a winning case
#
but unless you pay me money now
#
I can't win you the case
#
and the client is saying I don't have the money now
#
not have access to justice because of these barriers
#
not that they will create
#
barriers so it's a big difference
#
fair enough and I guess yeah
#
what really complicates the whole thing is that
#
the process is so much the punishment here
#
like you spoke about a case dragging on for 30 years
#
that most people will just say
#
fuck it it's not worth it like who's going to live
#
if I had to do something for my own
#
rights I would not go to court
#
it's just not worth the time
#
I mean unless it's a life or death and I'm dragged
#
to court I won't go to court
#
I'll just give it up and say no
#
even though I'm a lawyer
#
and I can call on some favors
#
so on this note that should make everyone
#
feel positive and optimistic and heartwarming
#
about India let's discuss why
#
tell me a bit about yeah I mean
#
you were there during the 2008 crisis right
#
a lot of outsourcing deals
#
and these were very interesting
#
financial services utilities
#
effectively calling these outsourcing
#
and because all of them had
#
the impact on the balance sheet was
#
hardly anything so let's assume
#
that you had a 3 billion
#
20 million is not going to make a damn difference right
#
and the person who buys
#
the asset will obviously
#
be able to give you back services at a cheaper
#
rate than you are paying for it yourself
#
so I saw a lot of those deals
#
it works well for India
#
because all these outsourcing guys
#
are getting an asset at less than
#
what it's real value is and even Italy
#
if you look at what Juventus got up to
#
lost you with the football reference
#
I was doing a deal a month
#
I saw as many as you could
#
seemed that there was something wrong
#
the market wasn't reflecting it
#
nobody's talking about it
#
there is a storm coming
#
where is it likely to have the least impact
#
and I thought Asia is likely
#
to have the least impact
#
I anticipated a much bigger
#
impact on the UK market
#
than actually was born out
#
it wasn't really that deal
#
so the hit was about 10%
#
big firms didn't take a hit more than 10% of headcount
#
but I thought if it was going to be 10%
#
because I was the odd one out
#
Dubai only because one of my clients said
#
you can do everything that you're doing
#
and I met a very interesting chap who shall remain nameless
#
what do you think about Dubai coming
#
where do you think Dubai will come out on this
#
and he'd been in Dubai for a very long time
#
and he invested in real estate
#
and turned exceptionally well
#
you know I'm a landlord
#
and have been for a very long time
#
but I fear that I might
#
I thought of it and said that's a very
#
very profound statement
#
you can be in real estate only if there is a scarcity
#
so much sand in the desert
#
what's the value of sand in a desert
#
yeah but why would a landlord become a sand lord
#
because there is no real activity in Dubai
#
that justifies its existence
#
property prices in Dubai have exploded by the way
#
because of the Russia Ukraine war and all the Russians
#
there's a huge crash in that market
#
everybody had done the flips, flip, flip
#
thinking that it would go up, up, up
#
people left Dubai in a rush
#
so after I came back to India
#
that was the story that in 2008
#
these loans they had taken to finance these
#
they couldn't sell it to anybody
#
else to flip the property
#
and the banks came after them
#
and they'd all handed over post-dated checks
#
and in Dubai you hand over a post-dated
#
check and it bounces you're in deep deep deep
#
so they all drove to the airport
#
left the cars, left the house
#
and just got out of the country
#
I know people like that
#
and now the banks were in an awkward position
#
where they'd financed it for higher
#
apartments, nobody living in them
#
because it was never meant to be rented out
#
they were all playing on this flipping it to
#
you're in a real crisis
#
so it led to a huge crash
#
and no development during that time
#
and I thought that was very prophetic
#
how did he do after that?
#
but he'd already had enough money
#
so you were talking about your choices, Dubai, Singapore, India
#
so it was obvious that it had to be India or Singapore
#
the folks at Khaitan came over
#
and we had a conversation
#
and they planted the idea
#
that I should come back
#
it was also a time we had to take a decision
#
because my son would start school
#
so he had just turned 3
#
or would be turning 3 that year
#
so we'd have to take a decision that
#
wherever we stay, it has to be for the next 10 years
#
in the world for the next 10 years
#
and which is likely to be the most stable place
#
and I felt India would be
#
safe for the next 10 years
#
at least safer than the UK would be
#
so the decision was made
#
and we turned up in Bombay
#
and the crash happened in October 2008
#
think about all these things
#
and say I'm the clever one who saw it
#
but if it hadn't happened
#
I'd look like a complete idiot
#
gave up a million bucks to come here
#
Before we talk about your years in India
#
let's take a digression
#
to the more exalted plane of parenthood
#
and by the way one of my favorite episodes
#
of all time is with Natasha
#
I just love that episode to bits
#
and she also writes about it quite a lot
#
you're the one person I met who seems to be really
#
not just intentional about it
#
that these are the things I want to do
#
and these are the values I want to parent by
#
but also enthusiastic about it
#
from every time I've spoken to you
#
which actually isn't that many times
#
but small sample size Zindabad
#
when I was in law school
#
but I think my wife wanted to have
#
and we were hoping against hope it would be a girl
#
and turned out to be a boy
#
the way I say it may sound
#
a bit corny but this is how
#
I discussed it with my mom a few years ago
#
but this was the thought that
#
I have to be the parent I wanted to have
#
I can't say it in any other way
#
that was at least my objective
#
the best parent he can have
#
and I didn't know how to be that parent
#
exploring to figure out
#
but willingness to actually
#
and I knew that if I spend the time on it
#
give me enough time I can figure things out
#
my plans were built around him
#
I was working exceptionally hard at the time
#
I used to be traveling two days in a month
#
but the two weeks I was in town
#
I'd block out time in the calendar
#
the time I dropped him off at the nursery
#
was time that just was not available to anybody else
#
and from 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock
#
was not available to anybody else
#
and so I'd pick him up at 5
#
we'll eat, we'll give him a bath
#
play around in the bath
#
and so that was always daddy time
#
right from the time he was a baby
#
he and I would go on a vacation by ourselves
#
and so I didn't have any trouble
#
even when he was a toddler
#
how will you manage without the mother
#
oh we manage fine without the mother
#
she feels bad sometimes that we don't miss her
#
so from the time he was a baby
#
the daddy thing has always
#
weekends were sacrosanct
#
we'd go for a walk every weekend
#
I introduced him to coffee
#
two year old he was having coffee
#
which people at Starbucks found strange
#
rolls and we've always done
#
and I think it's made a big difference to me
#
it is now a pressure to be a good role model
#
think of everything I say and do
#
because it has such an immediate impact
#
think it's significant at the time
#
but I realize how significant
#
so it's made me a better man I think
#
is a big thing because I came from a state
#
where I thought I'm going to be like this
#
I'm a successful lawyer
#
if anybody has a problem
#
and I have no urge to be better
#
clients are happy with me, I'm happy with myself
#
we're having a great life
#
and the market tells me I'm successful
#
so why should I want to be better
#
why should I put this pressure on me to be better
#
feeling that I have to do better
#
it's going to have a direct impact
#
has a great deal of thought behind it
#
every conversation I have with him
#
thoughtful, there's no random
#
so I think quite deeply about
#
and be more understanding
#
I'm doing things that I wouldn't have done otherwise
#
obviously at a theoretical
#
level here when I talk about parenthood
#
but it seems to me that
#
what parenthood or fatherhood specifically
#
it can take you in two opposite directions
#
one, it can be liberating in the sense
#
that you no longer have to be the center
#
of your own universe and
#
your self-regard need not constrain
#
the way you look at the world and
#
it can be freeing that way
#
terrifying because now a part of you
#
is wrapped up in someone else
#
don't want to control that
#
and also the thought of setting it free is
#
terrifying and that's especially
#
what we know from books like
#
Judith Rich Harris's Nurture Assumption for example
#
peers have you know beyond
#
of course the genetics involved
#
just in terms of the nurture part of it
#
greater influence on how a young
#
person turns out than parents do
#
in addition to all of this I guess
#
there must also be the fear that
#
but you may not be his project
#
that he might want to go
#
in different directions and not always
#
conform to the master plan that you have
#
laid out for him so to say
#
journey like negotiating all of these?
#
I've been actually quite
#
good at dealing with it
#
from the beginning at least
#
myself as very significant
#
understand that the world
#
will manage fine without me
#
my parents will manage fine, my family will manage fine
#
so I don't think of myself as a
#
thinks of me as significant
#
is actually never a question I ask myself
#
I think of him as significant
#
for a variety of reasons
#
but it doesn't have to be reciprocal
#
with all of my relationships
#
even if you don't love me
#
I can love sport even if it doesn't love me
#
I can love reading even though
#
it's a real challenge for me to read
#
I can love music even though
#
I find it really hard to
#
to understand the nuances of it
#
to be able to understand the notes, I can't do any of that
#
but I will still enjoy it
#
so it seems like a one way thing
#
I enjoyed activities with him right from the beginning
#
and it's brought out a side of me that
#
know existed, most spontaneous
#
not really wanting to engage
#
and do it enthusiastically
#
and I never did any of that as a child
#
so this is a great fun thing
#
every activity with him is great fun
#
to teach him subtraction
#
which basically is that
#
so it's not just him at play, it's you at play
#
so every time he's had to do anything
#
he said when I graduate with an IB diploma
#
I think they should give it to you as well
#
the summary of my time with him
#
there has never been anything that he has done
#
that I haven't somehow enjoyed it
#
as much as he has, sometimes more than he has
#
there are things that he just thinks
#
oh this is really not fun
#
but I find it great fun
#
and I constantly do stuff with him
#
about it, I ask him about it
#
he has ideas, I have ideas
#
what somebody is suggesting to him
#
and so it's a great way of bonding
#
if they are curious about their children
#
and they feel like it's a second chance
#
in a more liberating way without any pressure
#
of having to achieve anything
#
I think it can be a wonderful thing
#
when I see him play sport
#
and he wants me to play with him
#
he's much more graceful
#
it fills me with great pride
#
irrespective of the outcome
#
just the fact that he's graceful
#
doesn't matter if he wins or loses
#
when he's writing something and he writes something beautiful or has a beautiful thought
#
I take great pride in it
#
and I express myself in a way that nobody's ever seen before
#
I'm not a normally very expressive kind of guy
#
I'm not celebrated birthdays
#
I'm not celebrated being a partner in a big firm
#
even our wedding was very low key
#
you can see me being very effusive
#
I'm like blowing kisses and stuff like that
#
because obviously I can't watch him play live
#
he refused to allow me to watch him play live
#
so I watch him on TV and then blow kisses at the TV
#
and my wife finds it very very strange
#
no one's seen me do anything like this
#
have you ever blown kisses at her?
#
you know I did offer to you before this episode
#
that if you want me to cut something out later
#
but I'm not cutting out this bit about you blowing kisses at the TV
#
that's going to remain and embarrass the poor boy
#
that is exactly why he won't let me
#
come and watch him right?
#
he thinks this is going to be embarrassing
#
he's the Schrodinger's cat
#
I think that's what parenting does
#
you have your views on both marriage and children
#
and I came prepared for that
#
why people should not have
#
I'll link my article from the show notes of course
#
on why it is immoral to have children
#
but we are frail human beings
#
we are not doing moral things
#
I think it is immoral to lie but I lie sometimes
#
I rationalized it slightly differently
#
and this is just in response to
#
so if I was to write an op-ed piece
#
in response to what you wrote
#
civilization only progresses by procreation
#
there would be no evolution
#
my son is better than me
#
then we're making progress
#
okay I'll quickly sum up what my argument
#
was for the listeners who haven't heard it
#
there are three things I think we would all agree on
#
which are that we should not do
#
something to anyone without their consent
#
number two we should not cause pain to anyone
#
number three we should not kill anyone
#
we are bringing someone into the world without their consent
#
which obviously is impossible
#
and they will feel pain and they will die
#
and therefore it will just flat out
#
what you're saying about civilization
#
or progress I kind of get that but
#
these vague abstract terms
#
we don't have a responsibility to civilization
#
which is also why for example
#
when people say AGI will destroy humans
#
I'm like let it, what is a big deal
#
Hubris, what is this Hubris?
#
I agree with you but I think
#
if my son is better than me
#
the world will be a better place than it is now
#
so it is not the absolute
#
I'm thinking about is he better than what we have now
#
will the world be a better place for him
#
and I think it will be a better place for him
#
so my standard is very very low
#
yeah you're making a utilitarian argument
#
while I'm just making I guess
#
a deontological argument from
#
first principles and they're very different things
#
and it doesn't really matter
#
because I was on your side
#
and I don't want to appear like
#
but I do like the Arjun project
#
I love the Arjun project
#
I have a very very dear friend of mine
#
who's been on my show a few times
#
charming son called Kedar
#
and a charming relationship with him
#
and I love the way that that has also
#
been a project and of course Kedar is now an adult
#
living in the US, flown the coup all of that
#
but when I went to Delhi
#
have much time to spend with
#
his thing was my son is in town and if my son
#
is in town my son is the thing
#
what happens I think too much in human relations
#
is that you don't realize
#
you are going to see this other person
#
like if you just do actuarial odds
#
and you figure out how many times a year
#
you meet someone and you multiply
#
that then I think people would go
#
fuck I'm going to see my parents only X
#
number of times or fuck
#
this guy is such a close friend of mine I meet him twice a year
#
I'm only going to meet him 24
#
too much for granted and
#
it's sometimes worth thinking about
#
and this is why I asked that 24 hours 24 months
#
question because I think it puts it into
#
perspective and I'd like
#
all the listeners to answer that question what would
#
you do if the whole world was going to end in
#
and then the two follow up questions are
#
if your answers are different
#
is where is a dividing line
#
between those two that as those 24
#
months pass when do you get into 24 hours
#
mode and the second question is
#
you are going to die so why don't you live like that now
#
I am living like that now
#
two questions how are you recording a podcast with me
#
leaving your family behind
#
so this gives me pleasure now
#
and again I look at what downside
#
risk and opportunity cost
#
so Arjun is not in town
#
he's playing football in Dhaka
#
and the alternative to this is I stay
#
so therefore if I had 24 hours
#
would I stay at a blank wall for 24 hours or would I record
#
this podcast the answer is very simple I'd record
#
where did this blank wall come from sir can we organize a phone one for you
#
I don't call very many people
#
not many people call me
#
so I'm okay with it I don't miss
#
the phone and if you've noticed I don't really
#
I prefer that people didn't call me
#
and most people respect that
#
yeah you arrived here at something like 12.45
#
it's now 9.06 at this moment
#
and we of course had lunch
#
and then had coffee breaks in between
#
for me I'm not on whatsapp
#
social media is optional
#
I want to ask you about something else that you said
#
written quote believe in God
#
think of religion as Marx described it
#
so again this came from an Arjun
#
he had to do a project in theory
#
and these are themes best explored with kids
#
through these kind of things you know if I had to sit him down
#
and say you know we are Hindu
#
and you know you must be a Brahmin
#
and stuff like that he'll just blow me out
#
so it's not gonna happen
#
so he had a project to say what are
#
the objects he had to pick three objects
#
which you can never know and Schrodinger's cat
#
Schrodinger's cat was one
#
the second one he picked was
#
so this is Satya Narayan Katha
#
prayer book which my mother's mother
#
used to read from every Friday
#
so my wife's mother sorry
#
had it and now my wife has it
#
and she reads it every Friday
#
and he said God is unknowable
#
so we explored that theme
#
so you look at the Charvakas
#
then we looked at at least
#
Shankaracharya, Ramanujacharya
#
they all had different perceptions of what it is
#
and nobody told us how to reach it
#
what it is and they didn't tell you how to
#
therefore it can never be known
#
if I don't know what it is and how to test for it
#
it can never be knowable
#
and if it doesn't exist yeah
#
so if you have to prove it exists
#
you have to tell me what it is and how to test for it
#
yeah exactly so the fact that you have neither
#
so we did that exercise with him
#
was all of these things
#
the Charvakas, look at the Acharyas
#
look at actually Ramcharitmanas
#
therefore I said but you should look at Marx
#
out of whack with what he was doing
#
but I said you must look at Marx
#
so we actually read in that paper
#
where Marx deals with religion
#
quote that I've always had
#
difficulties with people using it
#
because they don't understand it
#
the opium of the masses
#
because they think of opium as addiction
#
and opium as giving them a high
#
but Marx meant it in the sense of sucker
#
and so it really used to annoy me for the longest time
#
when people just throw this line thinking that
#
religion is the opium of the masses
#
I believe it's true in both senses
#
it was said in the context
#
I'm not saying how Marx said it
#
Marx was wrong about so many things
#
I'm sure the crazy guys
#
who are fanatics who are going around
#
killing people in the name of religion
#
opium in the senses feeds a delusion also
#
Marx meant it because the circumstances
#
there were that it gave hope
#
I'm separating art and artist
#
and then I asked him to tell me
#
about religion having explored it like this
#
because we didn't bring him up
#
to be a religious person
#
my wife prays occasionally
#
but we're not really into mandirs
#
and pujas and we don't celebrate
#
any festival in any particular way
#
been brought up to choose what he likes
#
so he had to explore it
#
and this was really his summary of
#
he doesn't know it exists
#
he doesn't know if God exists or not
#
thing was if it gives me hope
#
whether I call it God or call it
#
trust in my own abilities or
#
since you use the word unknowable I'll go off on a
#
correct the wrong way in which people use
#
language where they often speak of
#
atheism and agnosticism
#
as if they are on a continuum
#
atheist means you don't believe there is God
#
agnostic comes in between and then there is
#
a believer and that's actually the wrong way to think
#
about it because atheism
#
and no you don't believe it
#
atheism is actually that's another misconception
#
and atheists does not believe there is no
#
God and it is an absence of
#
in the same way no it's a belief of absence
#
no it is not you are wrong about this
#
send you some links to this
#
but atheism is basically the absence
#
as much not a belief as not
#
collecting stamps as a hobby
#
and therefore you don't have to prove the
#
anyway so that is not an argument
#
the point is if you say something
#
I don't believe in God because nobody has
#
proved God exists at the same
#
time I am also agnostic
#
agnosticism deals with knowledge
#
for sure either way anyway
#
so therefore you know it is actually
#
possible to be an atheist and agnostic at the same
#
time in terms of saying that this is
#
unknowable and yet I do not believe
#
because no one has proved it yet
#
and I do not care is actually apathetic
#
but I am atheist agnostic
#
either way it doesn't make a difference to me
#
a very bad person because
#
in the world you see the pain and the suffering
#
writing group lost her kid
#
and somebody else commented
#
this just shows God doesn't exist and I am like
#
yeah that if God did exist
#
and I think either Hitchens or Dawkins
#
has an incredible paragraph on this
#
I will try and find and link it from the show notes
#
then he is a vile asshole
#
just look at the world you cannot rationalize that shit
#
his sense of justice is just walked
#
true true and there is a lot of
#
writing on it a lot of writing on this
#
it is a very difficult one I didn't want
#
my views to be colored into
#
I wanted him to figure it out for himself
#
he doesn't know whether God exists or not
#
but he thinks it is unknowable so I think we are making
#
I mean therefore he is by default an agnostic to begin with
#
exactly he is agnostic and
#
we can't figure it out nobody has been able to figure it out
#
because nobody can tell you what it is
#
forget how to get there can't even tell you
#
what it is and they can't agree on how to get there
#
or how to prove it exists so lots of issues
#
with it what do I do for my OPM then
#
would think of himself as
#
but he liked his drink and he smoked
#
so it was all very confusing
#
as kids whereas my mother
#
but not in ritualistic stuff
#
and her father didn't believe
#
in the ritualistic stuff but her
#
mother was very very religious and did her
#
asanamam and all of that
#
in this so it was really up to me to
#
Arjun the same choice that you figure it out
#
don't do it that's fine
#
families are pretty close to random distribution
#
that's why you need communities of choice
#
and that's why you need to choose your friends and your family
#
tell me about India yours you come back
#
what is it that you want to do
#
I came back to be a corporate lawyer
#
and did that for five years
#
forty so I didn't need the money
#
my father died of cancer
#
very quick he was diagnosed
#
at the last stage in 2012
#
testicular cancer stupid
#
they should have picked it up
#
he went for his tests every year
#
they missed it one year they caught it the
#
following year and then it was already too late
#
he didn't spend much time in hospital so he was at home
#
and about that time was when I started
#
I started doing work with him I spent a lot
#
more time at SIPLA than I was at my own
#
one of them at that time
#
said you know I think we should
#
he said we can't do this toothbrush thing anymore
#
staying overnight is not good enough
#
romantic I didn't know that
#
corporate things like this happen in India
#
I was lucky I was very lucky
#
and it was a very interesting role which they
#
and I was introduced to the board
#
and to the team as conciliary
#
so it was not just that I'm going to
#
I'm really going to be the conciliary to the
#
senior management and so
#
I didn't sit with the legal team I sat
#
from a real business perspective
#
I didn't have a team to run
#
I didn't have responsibility for
#
delivering any of those things
#
my deliverables are what the CEO has to deliver
#
so it's very interesting to work
#
in an environment like that where you're in the office
#
of the CEO and they're not seeing
#
you're not only giving legal advice
#
responsible for the whole company and everything
#
absolutely incredible man
#
stories so many stories
#
it's amazing everything
#
from science to cricket
#
to the partition to the history
#
such an interesting history that family has
#
rescued from Germany Nazi Germany
#
obviously Muslim helped set up the
#
helped fund Zakir Hussain
#
you can't imagine the kind of
#
they played at that time
#
the Muslim League wanted him to be
#
the candidate for Bombay
#
experiences of the partition riots
#
and I don't know how far it's true and somebody should research
#
wherever the riots happened
#
during partition they only happened in
#
places where the superintendent
#
of police and the collector were not Indian
#
I could never actually verify this
#
and I've done nothing but this is recorded
#
there's a conversation that he recorded
#
we started the archiving project
#
which I thought was a wonderful thing to do
#
all the material that exists
#
but I don't know how much of his
#
oral history and his knowledge of it
#
he's 86 now, is he lucid and stuff
#
should I call him on the show?
#
you should, I told you this long time ago
#
you must have sent email to the other email id
#
DM me on twitter it seems
#
I haven't seen him recently but
#
a treasure house of stories
#
stories of cricket for example
#
where they were the early
#
corporate sponsors of cricketers
#
Saleem Durrani used to play for
#
Sipla and he has stories about
#
Saleem Durrani who otherwise
#
couldn't get a job because he had absolutely
#
no education worth his time
#
and nobody would employ him
#
even the corporate houses expected you to have some kind
#
of education and be able to do
#
something other than play cricket
#
and Saleem Durrani all he was was played to the stands
#
but you don't get hired in companies
#
and it was difficult to get hired those times
#
they did a lot of this kind of work
#
but philosophically it changed me
#
from me thinking I'll have
#
I'm in a place which has such a huge
#
it just changed my philosophy to life
#
not worry about the impact of the law
#
not worry about the impact of anything
#
and be passionate about everything else
#
because they were two separate
#
parts of my life one was a hobby or a passion
#
and the other was work now it became both
#
you cared about human beings
#
you cared about the impact every
#
little thing had on people's lives
#
I think that was a huge impact for me
#
and that turned it for me
#
I didn't need the money
#
I have enough money to say no
#
I could do the right thing
#
and it reminded me of something
#
when I was writing my notes for this
#
it reminded me of what you had a conversation with Shanta Gokhale
#
when are you able to do the right thing
#
saying from someone who
#
was mentioned by Mr. Pant
#
so he has a lot of these
#
when translated into English goes
#
you become Vinaya which is a nice person
#
if you are a nice person
#
you are able to influence a lot of other persons
#
with that influence you will become rich
#
because basically that's how
#
and the usual translations are
#
and if you do charity you will become happy
#
I read it very differently
#
to say you have education
#
Dhanam there is not just money
#
it is this kind of money
#
you have the ability to do the right thing
#
that you can do the right thing
#
you are not scared that if I do the right thing
#
there will be consequences that I can't bear
#
so to me that actually summarized
#
my philosophy at that time
#
to say I have enough money
#
to do what I think is the right thing
#
and no one can do anything to me
#
because what is the worst case scenario
#
you will sack me from my job
#
there is no downside to it
#
you sack me from my job
#
somebody else will hire me
#
I don't have to earn a livelihood
#
so I can do the right thing, fearlessly do the right thing
#
and so everything that I have written
#
done since September 2030
#
is can we get more access to medicines
#
can we get more access to treatment
#
what are the barriers to access
#
with Pawan Srinath you had this thing about
#
price control and being a barrier
#
it's not true at all, we have enough studies to say that
#
the barriers to innovation are many
#
rights regime as it is now
#
doesn't help innovation at all
#
it comes in the way of innovation
#
I don't remember that episode at all
#
I don't know what Pawan's argument was
#
I don't even remember his argument
#
the early days when you were doing
#
and it was a very brief
#
so I started writing about a lot of that
#
and gave me more insight into
#
healthcare, more insight into equality
#
more insight into how unequal it is
#
and it spans everything
#
it's not just chemistry
#
it has public policy, it has international relations
#
things about being human
#
and how easily law comes in the way of all that
#
going back to how it was in law school
#
and how we thought of law before
#
law school, during law school and now
#
now you realize how difficult
#
it is and it's not obvious
#
it just seems like a good idea
#
but actually the consequences are
#
and I've stuck with it ever since
#
I did that episode with Dinesh Thakur
#
industry looks so incredibly
#
but the one company that just comes out looking
#
role and the values which I presume
#
from whatever you're saying must kind of
#
percolate much deeper than just his self
#
a little bit more on what you mean
#
by having this kind of impact on the world
#
by changing things and whatever
#
in terms of, if you had to explain to a
#
layman in 5 minutes that see this is a problem
#
that you've written a book, writing a
#
book on it with young Ashish Kulkarni
#
and he has vanished with a hookah somewhere
#
so the answer to that is
#
there's a very nice movie
#
called Fire in the Blood
#
it should be free on YouTube
#
but it's on Netflix as well
#
so the example you asked for
#
and the treatment was such that
#
if you took it, you could live a normal life
#
and that continues to be the treatment
#
today, it's almost like
#
diabetes or something, it just becomes a chronic
#
thing, you can live a...
#
I've reversed type 2 diabetes by the way in myself
#
so it's not chronic, it's a misconception
#
you just take the pills and it's easy to manage
#
were available only in the western world
#
would cost tens of thousands
#
of dollars and therefore were
#
so you have the pills in the United States and Europe
#
and the disease in Africa
#
so it seemed really strange that
#
you couldn't just deliver
#
and the companies which had patents
#
on this would refuse to supply
#
to those parts of the world
#
and those parts of the world had no way of making
#
and people thought that's fine
#
companies were asked, isn't this immoral
#
that if we give them those medicines
#
they don't take them properly
#
become worse, come back to us
#
and more white people will die
#
so we shouldn't actually give it to them
#
because it will do more harm
#
second was, even if you give it to them
#
they don't know how to take
#
we might as well just throw them in the bin
#
because it won't actually save lives
#
they have to be taken every 8 hours
#
and in Africa they don't know how to tell time
#
so they won't take it every 8 hours
#
and therefore the virus will mutate
#
and therefore it will kill us
#
so these were the two stories
#
and I use this as an example
#
when I teach class on IP and innovation
#
how do you solve the problem
#
assuming these two things are true
#
how do you solve the problem
#
and how do you frame the problem
#
how does who solve the problem
#
today if you had to solve the problem
#
and usually the class says
#
so I ask them what is the problem
#
they say the problem is time
#
that they don't know how to tell time
#
so we will give everybody an alarm clock
#
that buzzes every 8 hours
#
that solves the problem
#
so they will take it every 8 hours
#
and they will be able to manage
#
so usually when I teach this
#
course in class, this is the answer
#
what do you think is a better answer
#
it's such a multifactorial complex
#
problem that I hesitate to give a simple answer
#
so any other form of telling time
#
talking drums whatever phantom comics ka
#
but everybody identified
#
this as the problem is with
#
no, problem is not with telling time
#
that actually requires to be taken only
#
and everywhere in the world the sun rises
#
so you don't need a clock
#
so it's just articulating the problem
#
there is no patent to it
#
so here is the disconnect between thinking that
#
you need intellectual property for innovation
#
you can have innovation without
#
it was some kind of slow
#
release thing where it would
#
were aghast at this whole thing
#
and he said he will sell it
#
so from tens of thousands of dollars
#
he will bring it down to dollar a day
#
today it's available for less than 10 cents a day
#
and the impact it has had
#
in treatment of HIV AIDS
#
how it's perceived by society
#
how it's perceived by those people
#
it's not just some vision statement
#
it is not something that we write on the board
#
he didn't know what India was
#
and didn't know anything about Indian Pharma
#
he has a company that stood up in Europe
#
and said I will deliver it at a dollar a day
#
people's lives, millions of lives around the world
#
the question for every new product
#
will this be a dollar a day product
#
which became kind of a short hand
#
for will this revolutionize the world
#
otherwise what's the point in it
#
someone else can make it
#
and during my time we did it for Hepatitis C
#
was a pill that was a thousand dollars
#
and required to be taken
#
so you had to take 60,000
#
the alternative was a liver transplant
#
at a discount to a liver transplant
#
in the United States because that is how the United States
#
how do you know that it's value
#
it's value because it's cheaper than the alternative
#
that is how they have a pricing policy
#
eventually they decided to license it
#
the whole course was less than 200 dollars
#
now it's even cheaper than that
#
and again it wasn't one
#
it was given to six companies in India
#
without a price restriction
#
that is how you improve access right
#
if they had given it to one
#
that company would have no incentive to bring down the price
#
you give it to six companies
#
competition let the market work
#
and that was the only show in town
#
now you have combinations of it
#
slightly better ones of it
#
but at that time it had a monopoly
#
it had a patent and would eventually have been sold
#
to how many people in India
#
handful of people in India
#
and not in the rest of the world
#
but look at how it's changed
#
one drug for Hepatitis C
#
same thing can happen with vaccines
#
same thing can happen with everything else
#
is so strong against it
#
that there's a lot of wordplay involved
#
they say we'll have health coverage
#
health coverage means you have an insurance policy
#
you have a card that says
#
with the politicians picture on it
#
can actually go to a hospital
#
will actually get treated
#
coverage is a card with a photo
#
it doesn't actually cure people or heal people
#
this wordplay especially in the press
#
even full page announcements
#
it doesn't matter who's photo on it
#
God's photo on it is not going to change
#
whoever's photo is not going to change
#
you give them a red card, blue card, green card
#
we've exhausted all those cards right
#
below BPL, white card, blue card
#
green card, krishi card, yellow card
#
we've given everybody a card
#
but they haven't got the end result
#
everybody has a card, everybody has a number
#
but the actual benefit hasn't arrived
#
governments can use to fool people
#
into thinking that they're getting something
#
and India is willing to do that
#
we'll stand hours in a queue to get one card
#
because we think the card gives us
#
yellow, blue card, green card
#
and we actually have all of these cards
#
I'm not making these up
#
we actually have blue, white, green, yellow
#
four cards I'm aware of already
#
people must think that they're going to America
#
that the color of the green card is not green
#
will you cook with your own hands?
#
no, you'll cook with your friend
#
so where's the inducement?
#
I haven't done it for anyone else
#
I mean I feel special right now
#
but you will listen to other genres of music soon
#
that is the inducement to Ashish
#
that is the inducement to Ashish
#
so Ashish if you're listening to this
#
this has historically worked however
#
you know a lovely part of the
#
I'll go to recommendations last
#
but before that a lovely part of
#
your set of notes which you sent me
#
which is an evocative term for me
#
by the way I absolutely love that term
#
I'm going to start something
#
with that name and also
#
that term is memorable for me because
#
of the phrase from the Martin Scorsese
#
the film is called Life Lessons, it's part of a series of three films
#
that you know Capola, Woody Allen
#
and Scorsese made a film each and they were called
#
and his version of that has Nick Noltev
#
saying at the end when a
#
love affair is broken down that how it
#
taught him life lessons that are priceless
#
and I love that phrase life lessons that are priceless
#
it's a beautiful phrase
#
I want to double click on one of them
#
which is the Stephen Fry quote
#
it was very profound for me
#
a while to understand it
#
especially because even
#
you think about it in conversations
#
Hi I'm Murli and your response
#
and that struck me that
#
ourselves by what we do
#
been a challenge for me
#
defined myself as a corporate lawyer
#
it's not even a major part of who I am
#
I do it to earn a living
#
in many people around me
#
they are so caught up by
#
and it was an experience a long time ago
#
you go to the India International Centre
#
there are all these retired IFS, IAS guys
#
and that somebody is who they were
#
it's not who they are and they can't do anything
#
anything now that they did then
#
but they haven't got over it
#
they are still in this strange
#
I did all of this, I can do all of this
#
and so they are bound by
#
and then they have no reason to live
#
so I saw a lot of them and I thought
#
you are just waiting to die
#
because you have no reason to live
#
who you are is who you were
#
so what you did are verbs
#
and once we acknowledge that we are nouns not verbs
#
it just changed the way I thought
#
so what is a noun? define morely
#
you don't have to, multitudes
#
whereas verbs are what I do
#
what I think, what I feel
#
what I do not articulate
#
and it's going to be a combination of all of those things
#
I may only do two things
#
if I think of only that
#
then it's just those two things, what I do
#
machines are what they do
#
people are not what they do
#
yeah and I also think that there is
#
that the verbs have to arise from the nouns
#
that who you are will dictate what you do
#
and you'll do various things but you are not them
#
but it cannot be the other way around
#
that you define who you are according to what you do
#
because then you're immediately
#
and I've seen a lot of people do it
#
they lose purpose in life if they don't have any
#
and the corollary of that is
#
those who have purpose in life
#
I have great respect for
#
why do you have it 50 but did you always
#
was there a time where what you did
#
I became a lawyer because I didn't want to be significant
#
so it never mattered to me
#
you became a lawyer because it was
#
the open way of making money at that point in time
#
yeah and I was good at it
#
and it seemed the easiest way to make the money
#
if I tried to be a bricklayer or something I wouldn't have been able to make the money
#
I don't have the skills
#
and maybe if I had acquired skills also I couldn't have made as much money
#
so for the target of what I had in mind
#
this was the best way to do it
#
a bricklayer or a podcast
#
built something interesting
#
and been on the podcast as a bricklayer
#
a bricklayer on the podcast
#
I mean everybody is a bricklayer
#
in a metaphorical sense
#
but actual bricklayer that would be a first
#
see you've had lawyers before
#
and to put it in the IAS offices way
#
Mathan is senior to me so that's okay
#
I have his book I keep intending to call him
#
Alok Prasanna Kumar is also your junior
#
Ideas from the law school
#
is the subtitle of your book
#
see this is not a video podcast
#
there's a play on words right?
#
the book is called an idea of a law school
#
ideas from the law school
#
you get the impact of it
#
there are stories there
#
built to the first law school
#
and then in a short time
#
it became the law school
#
and you speak to anybody from the national law school
#
they always refer to it as the law school
#
and everybody else hates it
#
we haven't done anything
#
first it was a hootspa then it became confidence
#
I think the hootspa continues
#
before we go to recommendations
#
try everything once or even twice
#
and your choices being Sanskrit and history
#
we taught Sanskrit very badly
#
it has to do with the curriculum
#
and I felt it even more because
#
Pushpej ji was brilliant with his Sanskrit
#
and how the environment at home
#
everything made him love it
#
and find meaning in everything
#
everything else just connected to Sanskrit
#
so you could connect music, you could connect with language
#
you could connect it to so many life experiences
#
our syllabus had really
#
terrible choice of what we were studying
#
so for example we were studying
#
eroticism at its highest
#
populate and give birth to
#
I mean he is two hills and things
#
part of our body, things a cave and sees
#
part of our body, so that's all it is
#
and we had a female teacher
#
to read this and explain
#
who also see hills and caves and think
#
so there was squeamish teacher
#
and students completely
#
you can't figure it out
#
so it was taught incredibly
#
this is like I have to teach you because you have to
#
write the exam but I really don't want to
#
the syllabus was really really bad
#
and it was a lot of this kind of stuff
#
love poetry, which at that
#
thing about it, so it was terrible for me
#
I hated it, I didn't understand it
#
I didn't understand meter
#
so with a lot of poetry
#
you are expected to understand meter and
#
the metrical composition, I still don't know it
#
know how to break it down
#
and so it was a nightmare
#
a lot of the Sanskrit and
#
Sanskrit is one of those things where you are meant
#
and I was thinking about it
#
in English we say know by heart
#
kanthasta which means by the throat
#
other languages we say in the mouth
#
in Kannada we say by part too
#
and in English we say slip
#
or it's on the tip of my tongue
#
so it's weird how we think of it in all
#
different ways except in English where we say it's by heart
#
so I remember a lot of my Sanskrit
#
and all the interesting bits about the Sanskrit
#
but it was taught very badly
#
it was just wrote memory of
#
the millennial celebrations in London
#
and we were just something about
#
and I said I think I should give some things a second
#
she was kind of worrying
#
I told her I'll do Sanskrit and history because I don't think I've been fair to them
#
I tried them once didn't like them
#
but I think deserves a second chance
#
second chance doesn't mean anything else it means
#
little did she know what your thoughts on fidelity
#
would amount to later in life
#
I remember changing my thoughts always
#
we had the strawberry and manila conversation
#
trying to read more history
#
with both those subjects
#
be more open minded about them
#
and I've really enjoyed it
#
I've really really enjoyed it
#
it's a life lesson that
#
you don't like something
#
maybe second time it will be better
#
so I'm a big believer in second chances
#
have something to add here also is that
#
it's a question of opportunity cost
#
you can do finite things
#
otherwise if you didn't like it the first time
#
then there's logic there as well
#
I'm not saying 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
#
2 is a fair chance according to me
#
first time I might have got it wrong
#
either I'm wrong or I'm right
#
but second time is good enough
#
2 chances are I think fair
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so I'll have to have you
#
on the podcast again because I have to do it twice
#
I'll end by asking you for
#
recommendations that you've already put a list out there
#
and eventually I'll put in the entire list
#
in my show notes if you'd like
#
so feel free to go through the list
#
or to pick out highlights or whatever means a lot to you
#
and that you want to share
#
so I think the book Quiet by Susan Cain
#
had a huge impact on me
#
I think introverts are misunderstood
#
there's a difference between being shy
#
being awkward and being introvert
#
till I read the book and I had some friends
#
who helped me understand it
#
I think everybody needs to read the book
#
whether you're an introvert or not
#
you should read the book, it helps you understand better
#
the other one that really
#
had an impact on me was Fire in the Blood
#
especially because it involves teachers
#
Goodbye Mr. Chips, the first version of it
#
and it's my go-to movie
#
if I just feel like there isn't much of that
#
then it's a movie I go to
#
it's a black and white movie
#
and it's about a teacher in a boarding school
#
a lot of values there are
#
I think still true today
#
the third actually is a
#
you can watch on YouTube for free
#
and it's very relevant to our times
#
it's called Hitler's SS
#
it's called Bill Nye in it
#
and it's about a normal German family
#
and how they get transformed into
#
believing the Nazis and becoming the Nazis
#
so they're decent people who become Nazis
#
that you can have good people doing bad things
#
and it had a big impact on me
#
I think I'd pick from all of these
#
is What Money Can't Buy
#
it's a book gifted to me and I
#
gifted a lot to everyone
#
everybody who thinks about free market
#
needs to look at it and say not everything can be
#
something's more valuable than that
#
which I think everyone who believes in free markets
#
and Sandel does a lot of this
#
I'm saying that there are certain things
#
that shouldn't be bought and sold
#
I think that's all the book is good for
#
who would disagree with that?
#
but I don't think we realize it when we do things
#
that that is what is happening
#
so when you're getting preferential treatment
#
VIP treatment, stuff like that
#
I think this shouldn't be happening
#
again because it rings true for health care
#
why should the rich get
#
preferential health care?
#
everybody should get the same treatment
#
in fact in this country
#
the poor pay more than the rich for treatment
#
whereas the poor are actually paying for treatment
#
it just brings about those questions
#
which I think are close to me
#
there's a series on Pakistan TV
#
by a chap called Anwar Maqsood
#
he does an annual talk at the
#
and I wish someone would do that
#
he reads out letters that
#
Iqbal and Jinnah wrote to him
#
and they're such a satirical take on
#
and well applied to India
#
there could be stuff here
#
there are two poems actually
#
one is by Fameeda Riaz which says
#
tum bilkul hum jaise nikle
#
which may seem like we're becoming another Pakistan
#
do you want to read it out?
#
and there's another one which
#
actually is more inspiring
#
which again by Fameeda Riaz it says
#
kuch log tumhe samjhahenge
#
and it's about people telling you you can't do this, you can't do that
#
that to me is very very inspirational
#
yeah that seems to be a warning against
#
the aggressively conventional minded
#
you've read Paul Graham's Four Quadrants of
#
Conformism of course yeah
#
so I'll link it from the show notes
#
incredible classic essay which
#
everyone should read and avoid
#
turning into a particular category of people
#
called the aggressively conventional minded
#
privilege and sadly I can't
#
pay you for it so you had just one day of
#
professional life just vanish from
#
vanish from here but this was a great conversation
#
so thank you so much for coming over
#
no thank you so much for having me, it's not something
#
I'd ever thought would happen, in fact I told Ashish
#
that the incentive for him writing the book
#
that we would get on your show
#
so now he doesn't have an incentive to write the book
#
no but hang on, hang on, hang on
#
so his incentive remains and I
#
happily offering both of you
#
to come on my show whenever the book is done
#
and if this doesn't work what will
#
but thank you so much for having me, it was great fun
#
having, spending the day with you
#
follow me on twitter at amitvarma
#
a-m-i-t-v-a-r-m-a you can browse
#
past episodes of the scene in the unseen
#
thank you for listening
