#
How often have you read the news in the last few years and said to yourself, you can't
#
It happens to me all the time.
#
More and more something will happen and I will think satire is dead.
#
This is so ridiculous that you can't possibly make a parody out of this.
#
Well, these are the times.
#
And one way to react to it would be just to tune out.
#
That's kinda what I've done.
#
I haven't watched news television in a decade and I avoid the news and try to shut myself
#
I'm not an active journalist anymore so I can do that.
#
But how do journalists cope?
#
Don't they get tired day after day chasing the truth when no one seems to care about
#
Doesn't outrage, fatigue affect them as well?
#
Maybe one way to fight the apathy and to do work that matters is to follow the advice
#
my guest today once gave on Twitter.
#
And The Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics and behavioral science.
#
Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
#
Welcome to The Scene and The Unseen.
#
My guest today is Manisha Pandey, the managing editor at News Laundry and the host of the
#
incredible show TV News Sense, which she describes as, quote, a show that looks at all the insanity
#
that passes off at news on Indian TV stock.
#
She's a gift to Indian journalism.
#
There's this old saying about how the world is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy
#
Both categories of people need Manisha Pandey.
#
But hey, what am I doing?
#
I doubt she needs any introduction for any of you.
#
So let's just get straight to the conversation.
#
Hey, the music started and this sounds like a commercial, but it isn't.
#
It's a plea from me to check out my latest labor of love, a YouTube show I am co-hosting
#
with my good friend, the brilliant Ajay Shah.
#
We've called it Everything is Everything.
#
Every week, we'll speak for about an hour on things we care about, from the profound
#
to the profane, from the exalted to the everyday.
#
We range widely across subjects and we bring multiple frames with which we try to understand
#
Please join us on our journey and please support us by subscribing to our YouTube channel at
#
YouTube.com slash Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A.
#
The show is called Everything is Everything.
#
Please do check it out.
#
Manisha, welcome to The Scene in the Unseen.
#
Thank you so much for having me.
#
Before we start, I'm going to embarrass you by saying I've just been your fanboy for the
#
longest time and absolutely love nuisance, of course, but also all of the other work
#
you do and everything you guys do at News Laundry is just fantastic.
#
That's really kind of you and coming from you, it's a huge compliment because I love
#
It's I think I don't listen to much, you know, podcasting, but it's one of the few podcasts
#
that I listen to and I am a deep fan of yours too.
#
Achievement has been unlocked.
#
There's no reason to go on.
#
But what is this stuff that has been happening recently with the government going after influencers?
#
Like I just really found it so fascinating, hilarious and it's not just that they decided
#
to go after it, but they did like a hardcore push for it.
#
It's not like one or two people.
#
And how come no one approached you?
#
In fact, we've just, no, so you know what, the first thing that happened was, I think
#
it was Bharat Jode Yatra and Rahul Gandhi, we'd approached Rahul Gandhi for an interview
#
and their team had very clearly said that you can get the interview, but you can't
#
So we were like, then what's the point?
#
So then we said, obviously we can't do that.
#
But then we saw the series of interviews that he did with influencers.
#
You know, he had Sandeesh walking alongside.
#
Then he had Kunal also, I think at one point where he wasn't really talking about politics.
#
He was talking about what he felt about the country, his life and, you know, fluff stuff
#
We got a glimpse of him, but you couldn't really challenge him in the way that journalists
#
And I think that really ticked with a lot of people.
#
Then you saw BJP do this counter push.
#
And in fact, we've done a story today which explains that it's not just the centre, state
#
governments, you know, Rajasthan government, Madhya Pradesh government, they're meeting
#
local influencers, you know, doing meetups with them.
#
And it's really the next frontier for them because for Congress, it makes sense because
#
they don't get any space on mainstream media or opposition.
#
So if you want your word in, and I think for Rahul Gandhi also, he's probably very scarred
#
still with that Arnab interview, which really went haywire for him.
#
But yeah, so the opposition, I think, wanted to get a space for themselves where, you know,
#
they'd at least get heard without being called tukde tukde gang or whatever.
#
And I think the BJP, for the BJP, it's just you've taken over TV media, most of it.
#
So the next frontier is, you know, YouTube.
#
I think which is what is really troublesome about this whole thing is, you know, we reached
#
out to Bear Biceps and asked him, because there was a disclaimer that said that this
#
is an arrangement with MyGov.
#
And we asked him, what does this arrangement means?
#
Was there a, you know, monetary exchange?
#
And he said, no, but they paid for my flight and my tickets and loosely logistics.
#
So we don't know what those logistics are, but, you know, if as a journalist, I'm interviewing
#
anyone, I'm not going to get them to pay for my tickets or my stay or anything.
#
And if I do, then I'd have to put that out as a disclaimer, because that means that,
#
you know, I'd probably go soft on it or whatever, because it's essentially then a promotion
#
And you don't have any of that in some of what these influencers are doing.
#
So for me, actually, it raises questions of transparency, because audience needs to know
#
what the arrangement is.
#
So you can do that fluff interview if you want, and you can, you know, ask them, what
#
are your hobbies or, you know, what do you think about, you know, some fluff questions
#
like what do you think about tourism in India?
#
I think that was one of the questions that came up.
#
But I think it needs to come with a disclaimer for your audience.
#
They need to know where you're coming from.
#
I used to be really skeptical of, you know, celebrity endorsements back in the day and
#
influencer marketing now, because I would think it's all shallow stuff.
#
No one takes it seriously.
#
But I've changed my mind on that, especially when, you know, I read this great book called
#
Wanting by Luke Burgess.
#
He was also on my show and he spoke there about the core idea by his hero, the philosopher
#
Rene Girard, where Rene Girard talks about what he calls mimetic desire.
#
And the central thesis there is that most of us want something because other people
#
So, if I want a Mercedes or a car, or if I'm a young person and I'm thinking that I'm
#
going to get married and have kids and none of those may be intrinsic needs.
#
Those are the things to want and therefore you want them.
#
And listening to those guys on podcasts, reading up more on that, I've kind of realized that
#
mimetic desire is incredibly powerful.
#
So when your mimetic role model, so to say, you know, which will tend to be famous people,
#
when they recommend something or when they seem to do something, it is so powerful.
#
And what really gets my goat more and more is that we see all these influencers around
#
They are not at all discerning about what they are peddling.
#
Like back in the early days of scene on scene, one Ayurvedic company came to me and said,
#
And were a little surprised when I said no, you know, but these guys, they don't care
#
any random crypto shit, any random finance campaign thing, they'll just kind of peddle
#
it out there and have no thoughts about it.
#
And the content, no, it's just like, where's my next content?
#
Where's my next piece of content that I can churn?
#
And there's rarely, if you look at these interviews, they're painful to watch.
#
And I say that as someone who watches a lot of television news, I was like, okay, this
#
It's painful to see the ignorance of the influencers, like you said, like, some of the questions
#
come from such deep space of ignorance that it's just painful to watch that.
#
And then for that to have access to the union ministers, you know, it's a very strange kind
#
And the bizarre thing is that at least with journalists, like not that, you know, there's
#
any sense of values in our profession, but at least with journalists, you can say this
#
If you if you know, if they paid for your flight, you should put a disclosure.
#
But there's nothing like that for influencers, right?
#
It's just a completely open unmapped territory.
#
And typically, I would have imagined that it's okay.
#
If you're an influencer who is doing shit like that, then your credibility gets affected.
#
People engage with you on a shallow level, they don't take you seriously.
#
So it's fine in the long run, it kind of, you know, everything finds its own level.
#
But I'm just getting increasingly pessimistic about that, because what is also happening
#
is that the government has decided that everything is a narrative battle.
#
And rather than media, you go directly to influencers and creators.
#
They're actually right.
#
Those guys are more effective.
#
And I think you have rules now when you're promoting something on Instagram, at least
#
You have to write sponsored.
#
Even YouTube has a rule that if there's a video sponsor, you have to.
#
What do you do when you're, you know, this is such a gray area.
#
Where is the disclaimer when you're promoting an ideology or, okay, ideology is a bit vague,
#
but a party or a person or a politician, and especially if there's money exchanged, I think
#
we, you definitely need disclaimers for that.
#
And it is very powerful because if you look at the comments below some of these interviews,
#
like a Jai Shankar, you know, that message that we have this foreign minister who's finally
#
putting India on the map, it just, it's drilled into you through that in a very easy fluffy
#
But the, you know, the nature of the podcast or the interview really allows them to do
#
And then you, you know, you have little sleek shots cut out of it, reels cut out of it and
#
It's incredibly powerful.
#
Yeah, I think Jai Shankar had this video with tequila triceps and tequila triceps is fawning
#
I was like, beer ke baad tequila triceps is view.
#
Only you can make fun of people over, though obviously I'm not as good at it as you.
#
But the fawning admiration of these influencers and the point is it doesn't really make a
#
difference because if you look at without my taking names, if you look at some of the
#
other guests these people have on, they're just all kinds of cook spedling, all kinds
#
But what I really like is, you know, what I did a couple of years back was I decided
#
I need to check out this hardcore right wing YouTube and all that.
#
I didn't want it to mess up my algorithm.
#
So I opened incognito window, new Gmail account, went deeply into that.
#
Now I have two separate YouTube's, there is no overlap.
#
But the good thing is in that right wing ecosystem, there are a whole bunch of podcasts and show
#
And they must have imagined in their heads, ki jab Modi ji aayenge, to humare paas aayenge.
#
And instead they've been completely bypassed.
#
And gone to these completely guys who had nothing to do at all with, you know.
#
So that's also in a sense, it's kind of delicious.
#
So let's sort of get to, let's get to talking about you.
#
You know, where did you grow up?
#
What was your childhood like?
#
Childhood is, yeah, it's not the most easiest thing for me to talk about.
#
But my father was in the army.
#
I grew up all over India, mostly till ninth standard, I was in Chandigarh and then a lot
#
of my formative years from ninth standard onwards were, was in Chandigarh.
#
So there were two things happening during, and I think it really shaped a huge part of
#
And I usually never talk about this, but, you know, if you ask me a question on my childhood,
#
it's very difficult for me to not address some issues and, you know, just talk about
#
my schooling or my teachers.
#
Two things, I think, one was that growing up as an army kid, there was a lot of moving,
#
So we were moving from Binagudi to Shimla to Udaipur.
#
And my mother made it a point to make sure that I never go to an army public school.
#
Because she was like, you can't turn into this army brat who thinks all that there is
#
to life is an army can tournament and you only meet, you know, people who are in the
#
And she wanted me to go to a public school as a result of which what happened was that
#
every two, two and a half years I would move to a new school.
#
I'd have to break into friendships.
#
You know, you have friends already formed and children can be very mean, I think we,
#
you know, when you as a young person, when you move into a new place, you already have
#
groups formed, cliques formed and you're this new odd girl who's trying to come and
#
And then finally you fit in and then you have to leave and, you know, all your friendships
#
break and then you write sad letters to your ex friends that I really miss you in my new
#
So I think that, but I think at some point you kind of become cool with it.
#
You know, I think I, after a point, I really started seeing myself as this ruthless hippie,
#
you know, everyone has a story that is boring, they're just born and brought up in one place
#
and they have this linear, whereas I have traveled all over and, you know, whatever.
#
So I kind of exoticized it and, you know, came to terms with it.
#
The other thing is slightly trickier for me to talk about because I had a sibling who
#
passed away about 12, 15 years ago.
#
And he was someone who was dealing with drug addiction for a very long time.
#
So I think I was in fourth and he was in twelfth and that's when his first sort of
#
bout with addiction began.
#
Yeah, so I was in fourth, he was in twelfth and I think his first sort of, I don't know
#
how to put it, but I mean, the beginning of it was basically back then we were in Shimla
#
and I pretty much then kind of grew up seeing him struggle till a very late stage and succumbing
#
So I think for growing up for me, that was a huge part of my reality.
#
And remember this is the 90s when you can't, drug addiction is a huge taboo, even today,
#
people don't want to talk about it.
#
But back then even more so because you didn't have the internet, you know, you didn't have
#
access to pop culture or stuff like that where people are openly talking about it.
#
So it was something that had to be dealt with at home, that had to be lied about or that
#
had to be kind of brushed under the carpet.
#
And I think a lot of my beginning early memories were kind of leading this dual kind of a life
#
where I knew there was something happening at home and it was hard, it was hard on everyone.
#
Then there was this outside going to school, making friends, being all, everything is great
#
So that really defined for me a large part of my youth also as a result of which I don't
#
really talk about this much, but you know, I do when I do.
#
And I kind of rationalized it in my head, funnily, with this theory as a kid that, you
#
know, a lot of people, life is divided into these two acts, basically, that you have a
#
childhood and you have an adulthood.
#
And those who have not the typical happy, you know, childhood life eventually end up
#
having great adulthood.
#
So I just kind of said, okay, this is all shit, but it's going to get really good ahead.
#
That's a good way to deal with it.
#
I'm so sorry to hear that.
#
One of the things that often interests me is how people kind of fit in, because growing
#
up, we have like this perpetual anxiety of, you know, you want the validation of your
#
peers, you want their respect, all of that.
#
And I would imagine that for an army kid, that could be even tougher.
#
Like typically how I would imagine is that how you make friends is that you are who you
#
are and you're in a particular school and over time you fit in and then you have your
#
own little group and that kind of moves on.
#
But if you're moving all the time, if you're moving every couple of years as you were,
#
you know, for some people who are outgoing, it might be easy to kind of make new friends
#
and all that. For some people who are not so outgoing, you could just like get into a
#
shell and it could be, you know, much harder.
#
And some people build up defense mechanisms.
#
Like I did an episode with Chuck Gopal, the creator, and he told me about how in his
#
college, he just felt like a complete misfit and didn't know what to do.
#
And and then he realized that making PJs was a way to fit in, if I remember correctly.
#
So he became known as a guy with PJs and that's how he kind of, you know.
#
So it's like you build a kind of a persona, but you realize that that works and it goes
#
with that. And there's also a great term I learned recently called the looking glass
#
self about how we are shaped by the reflections of others.
#
And this becomes really complicated because especially when we are young, there is often
#
no self-reflection. You're not really thinking about what do I really want to be?
#
Why do I do the things I do or want the things I do?
#
And if you are in good company, that's great.
#
Some of it reflects back on you.
#
You want their admiration.
#
So you behave in those ways.
#
And sometimes you don't.
#
And like you said, kids can often be cruel.
#
Kids can often be shallow.
#
So when you think about sort of the shaping of the self, you know, how was that like
#
for you? Like, were you naturally somebody who could make friends easily or did it have
#
to be an intentional effort?
#
If it was an intentional effort, were there like tactics?
#
How did you put yourself out there?
#
I think I was naturally good at speaking with people.
#
I was into a lot of like declamation, debates, theatre, that kind of stuff.
#
So I, you know, instantly that became my way of making friends, just, you know.
#
But I think, yeah, there's always this first day of school.
#
I still remember, you know, even now, when I look at kids go to school in the morning,
#
if I ever wake up that early and I see kids standing at a bus stop, I just feel really
#
traumatized. I just feel really sad that poor kids they have to go through.
#
And, you know, for a lot of people, they they miss their childhood or they romanticize
#
and they say, oh, I wish I could just go back to school.
#
For me, it was never like that.
#
And I still feel like, shit, so sad kids are going to school.
#
But anyway, for me, no, I think I was good at making friends.
#
I was good at putting up an act.
#
I could be very confident even if I'm really worried whether the other person will like me or not.
#
I would always prepare a bunch of conversation starters, which I think I still do.
#
I think I said that habit has still stayed on with me.
#
With the in from school or from anywhere?
#
No, I mean, you know, just simply if even today, if I'm at a party or if I'm at a
#
place where I don't know anyone at all, I would think of three or four things that I'd say to
#
I'd just rehearse it in my head before I approach the person.
#
And of course, then you made friends and all that.
#
I think then the hard part was leaving the friendships that you make finally.
#
And then starting all over again.
#
But I mean, it sounds tragic, but I guess it's I mean, I'm making I think maybe I'm
#
making it more than what it was because a lot of kids in the army do kind of have to
#
have the system of, you know, moving from one place to the other.
#
So at that time, it was a huge thing in my head.
#
So one of the sort of sort of not a TIL, but a striking sort of observation about someone
#
that came up during the episode with your colleague Abhinandan was when he said that
#
he hasn't made any new friends after 25.
#
And that struck me because so many of my guests say exactly the opposite.
#
And I say exactly the opposite because.
#
Yeah, I don't have I made a lot of friends after 25.
#
I think some of the friends that I am in touch with today and I consider closer.
#
I talk to on a daily basis are actually my friends from after 25 or maybe from a few
#
from 20s, maybe like college.
#
But school friends rarely I'm not really that in touch with.
#
Also, because the nature of, you know, what it was just moving on.
#
Yeah, I mean, you forget also as a kid, you know, then you move on after one year and
#
then you just forget all your best friends and you make new best friends.
#
I think in that generation and probably the early part of the generation or the later
#
part of it where, you know, the Internet was a transitory point.
#
So when I look at a significant part of my life till I was an adult, you had to deal
#
with, you know, you had to be part of communities of circumstance.
#
So you go to school somewhere, you live somewhere, maybe you work somewhere and
#
those are all communities of circumstance.
#
And that's your sample size for meeting people and making friends.
#
But then the Internet happens and you can now form communities of choice where you
#
can meet like minded people and everything kind of just opens up.
#
Did the Internet kind of flow naturally into your lives or do you remember it as
#
something that actually came in and changed the way you did things?
#
It made a big difference.
#
I think, in fact, now that you're talking about friendship and all that, I think,
#
yeah, the first thing that Internet did for me was the realization that you could talk
#
to some total stranger on a Yahoo chat engine or you could make friends with someone on
#
I think before Orkut, you had high five.
#
So that, I think it opened that up.
#
And I remember going to cyber cafes, you know, making, talking to my Internet friends.
#
And yeah, I mean, in that way, it changed.
#
I think I must have been what eighth standard is when I think the Internet thing would have
#
come, you know, it come into our lives and you had cyber cafes as a phenomenon where
#
you'd spend two to three hours.
#
Music, I was really into music.
#
So for me, Internet also meant that I could search for all the songs that I can't go to
#
Planet M or albums that I can't find in Planet M or Music World.
#
So that also became a thing for me.
#
I mean, the impact that if I recall from Internet for me would be, yeah, making friends,
#
chatting with complete strangers and music.
#
What kind of music were you into?
#
Okay, so my music journey was for the longest time, I think till 18, 19, it was just rock
#
So 60s, 70s, a lot of started with The Doors, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, Bad Company.
#
Discovered Bob Dylan, then got stuck to that, Lil' It's Crinnett, so stuff like that.
#
And, you know, back then you would go to, you know, you discover Bob Dylan, you read,
#
you listen to the essential hits, then you go to Planet M, you find like Highway 61,
#
Revisited, you find, you won't find Blonde on Blonde.
#
So then you go on the Internet looking for, you know, all the albums.
#
So that kind of stuff, I think, at least till my first year, I just, I thought music
#
meant 60s and 70s, that's it.
#
And Cat Stevens was, I think, my end point.
#
After that, then I moved on to Hindi music.
#
Yeah, and bringing memories back, Blonde on Blonde, Highway 61, Blood on the Tracks was
#
my favorite Dylan album, which was, and, you know, I remember back in the days in the 80s,
#
early 90s, just scrambling, it's such an achievement to get a mixtape together.
#
And now it's kind of...
#
I used to love making those for my friends, like on TDK.
#
I still remember like we used to have TDK cassettes and then press play and record play
#
together and make a mixtape.
#
Yeah, so as you were, you know, going through school, going through college,
#
what did you want to do?
#
Like, you know, what was your sense of who you are, what you want to do?
#
Yeah, you know, I thought of this recently because there's a CSDS survey that's come
#
It's interviewed about 200 journalists and nearly half of them have said that they want
#
to leave journalism, which is a very alarming figure.
#
Career switch or just completely leave?
#
And I was just discussing this with friends.
#
I was like, actually, I'm not surprised.
#
And I really wonder why I stuck around, you know, and we were wondering like why a lot
#
I've been a journalist for 14 years now, which made me think like, why did I become a
#
journalist in the first place?
#
And I think the answer was that I wanted to be a writer.
#
And for a long time, because of, you know, everything that was happening at home,
#
I felt I really went into books and I would read a lot.
#
And I also, along with rationalizing, you know, what I told you earlier about life being
#
divided into two acts, I also felt like all this struggle or whatever was happening was
#
happening because I would use it as material and become some great writer because all writers
#
go through pain and then they, you know, turn it into some gold, which would be read
#
for centuries and centuries.
#
So I really fancied myself as a writer.
#
Of course, grief or sadness is not the only thing you need to be a writer.
#
You also need talent, which I didn't have to be a writer.
#
So the next best thing was journalism.
#
But I think my early memory would be and, you know, even before I had a sense of what
#
I want to be, I would just type a lot.
#
You know, I would just pretend like I'm typing sometimes because at
#
that time you had those landline phones.
#
So sometimes I would type on the phone pad pretending like I didn't know what I was
#
writing or I didn't know what, you know, what I was doing.
#
But I just liked the idea of typing a lot.
#
So I think I fancied myself as a writer for a long time.
#
Then I wanted to be an actor in college till I got really scared of what acting meant
#
because I did a couple.
#
Yeah, I was hugely into theater and doing plays was exhilarating.
#
But it also came with this huge down, you know, every time a play would get over,
#
there would be this, you know, big lull and big sadness.
#
And that kind of scared me that, okay, this is a hard life.
#
And of course, acting also meant, of course, a lot of my friends actually went on to do
#
things in Bollywood, but I knew that that's not my thing.
#
That's again a life of struggle because you go to NSD and sort of whatever.
#
So I chose the easiest.
#
I was like, writer nahi ban sakte, actor nahi ban sakte, journalist ban jaaste.
#
And regarding sort of using your pain for your art, I remember when I was 11 or 12,
#
I had a simultaneous hernia and tonsillitis operation and I was feeling completely
#
miserable lying there in bed.
#
And those days, the author I was into was Dostoevsky.
#
So I remember my dad coming and saying that this is good for you.
#
Do you want to write like Dostoevsky?
#
You can become India's Dostoevsky, et cetera, et cetera, which of course I didn't.
#
And that was kind of and I also, you know, that's a lovely image of, you know,
#
where you mentioned that you're sitting on a landline pretending to type.
#
And, you know, I had Nilanjana Roy on the show about a year back and we were chatting
#
about the urge to write and we were talking about thin desires and thick desires and thin
#
desires being relatively superficial and not really intrinsic to you, mimetic desires
#
and thick being like really core to you.
#
You know, writing can straddle both.
#
You can have the thin desire ki validation chahiye.
#
I want to be seen as a writer and you don't book a prize jeetenge.
#
And it's in a sense that thin desire that makes you type on the phone.
#
But there's also the thick desire where you just love writing when you get hooked onto
#
You love telling stories.
#
You love like creating a life out of nothing as it were.
#
And I often think about how we should never mock someone with a thin desire because what
#
it can lead to is a kind of a learning and a self-fulfillment which takes you down the
#
thicker path that, you know, almost like you fake it till you make it.
#
But just on your previous point, do writers immediately?
#
I mean, I don't know, do they do they take a pen and start writing like, you know,
#
that the need to write is that what you mean when you say that the thick desire means
#
that even if you don't want to, you just have to sort of that's the only way you can
#
And those are the guys who become big.
#
Finally, like, do you think all the classics and everything were written by people who
#
just couldn't do anything but write?
#
I think just thinking aloud, I think what it would be is that you might be attracted
#
to like ten glamorous things, right?
#
Like tennis, let me try that.
#
And then you watch something else and let me try that.
#
And that I guess is also an intersection of what you're attracted to and what you're
#
And sometimes and the weird thing about doing anything is that no matter what you do, you
#
will suck at it at the start.
#
It is just doing it endlessly, which kind of makes you good, which is, you know, I keep
#
telling my writing students that if you write something and you think it sucks, that is
#
It is a reason to continue because it means your judgment is ahead of your ability and
#
you'll eventually get there.
#
But the point is that I think a certain amount of self delusion is perhaps necessary because
#
if all of us could see how bad we were when we start something, why would we continue?
#
I would talk a lot to myself, not daydream, but I would talk a lot to myself.
#
I would talk a lot to like imaginary people, sometimes important people.
#
I would take their interviews, like, I don't know, like some actor or even sometimes I'm
#
talking about very young, a teacher, you know, in my class who I don't like or who's tormented
#
I would do like an interview with her in my head.
#
So I would talk a lot, but not daydream so much, no.
#
But I think a lot of kids do that.
#
I think a lot of kids do kind of talk to themselves.
#
And how was journalism school?
#
How was journalism school?
#
This was IIMC in Dhenkanal, at that time you only had two IIMCs, one in Delhi and one in Orissa.
#
I don't think I learned anything in the institute because I don't think A, you can learn much.
#
Journalism is not something that you can really learn in a school.
#
However, I do think that, you know, there are colleges that teach you at least the basics
#
of writing, what it is to be a journalist, what is news, what makes the news.
#
I don't think IIMC in Orissa was really equipped for that.
#
You had just one teacher who was taking all the classes.
#
But I think what was interesting was to be placed in Orissa.
#
That I wouldn't have been there in that space at all.
#
And that year there were the Kandamal riots there.
#
So that and there was flooding also massively, I remember.
#
So we got to kind of acquaint ourselves with this reality that we wouldn't have had I been
#
It was a beautiful campus, got a lot of time to kind of, you know, read and talk a lot
#
to your campus colleagues because there was nothing else to do.
#
All you did was sit down and chat.
#
And I think that was also the year of 2611.
#
I still very clearly remember being in the hostel, switching on the TV in the beginning
#
and seeing what's happening.
#
And then we were just glued to it through the day.
#
So yeah, but I don't think it prepared me at all for what journalism is.
#
And I got picked up from the campus by business standard and had like zero inclination,
#
you know, in economic journalism or even business journalism at all.
#
But got picked up right from there.
#
So I just kind of went from there to business standard and then just kind of did stuff ahead.
#
But in terms of training me for journalism, everything I had to learn on the job, like from
#
what it is to make a page to what it is to sub a copy.
#
I'd have my bosses tell me that, you know, you're worse than a barber.
#
You don't have to cut a copy, stuff like that.
#
I realized how bad my language was when, you know, my boss would kind of edit stuff.
#
So I learned a lot purely on the job.
#
I don't think I was aware of anything at all before that and it didn't prepare me for much.
#
And in fact, I thought I was very good.
#
Like in journalism school, I thought, I'm the best.
#
So I was quite confident of who I was and completely dropped in business standard.
#
And there are so many different aspects to learning journalism in the sense that
#
you can think of it as a job.
#
You got to report the news.
#
Maybe you're good at writing.
#
You think, yeah, I'll enjoy that.
#
I can craft together a report, blah, blah, blah.
#
At one point, you were writing about the very complex situation about people in the Republic
#
who were, you know, leaving it and people were asking why did they even work there and that.
#
And at that point, you spoke about how for so many people, journalism is really just a job.
#
You know, you're a deskie, you're a reporter, you're a production assistant.
#
You do your work, you get your pay, you get the hell out of there.
#
And that is one way to look at it that, okay, I am good at something.
#
It is a functional skill and I have a job where I'm being paid to do it.
#
And that's one way to look at it.
#
And I guess another way to look at it is to be more idealistic about it
#
and have a conception that there is a particular kind of work I want to do,
#
not just in the quality of the craft, but where it is leading to in terms of, you know,
#
the kind of stories you cover and how you cover them.
#
So how was your sense of yourself as a journalist?
#
Because I imagine you get into it.
#
You're a, you know, you're a creative person.
#
You're doing theater, you're doing all of you want to write, you're doing all of these things.
#
So initially, I guess it is that creative impulse, writing impulse that gets you in.
#
But how does it begin to deepen and when you look around you,
#
then is it then disillusioning to see that for so many people,
#
it is just, you know, purely functional and they don't maybe care the way you do?
#
Yeah, so when I, in fact, you know, when I was about to join IIMC,
#
I spoke to one of my relatives who was in broadcast.
#
And he asked me, like, why do you want to be a journalist?
#
I said, because I love to write.
#
And he said, okay, but that's got nothing to do with journalism.
#
I was like, yeah, okay, I like news.
#
So yeah, you're very right.
#
Like I came to it from a very, you know, from this theater background
#
and from this love to write and love to read.
#
And then landing myself in a job where, you know, you're making pages every day.
#
For the first one year, that's all I had to do.
#
I just had to sit and make pages on the op-ed.
#
I had to make sure that it's out at 6.30 p.m.
#
You know, that it could not get later than that.
#
I was editing letters to the editor.
#
And I would suck at even that.
#
I mean, according to my boss, I would be, you know,
#
rogered over even editing letters to the editor
#
that if you can't do this, what else will you do?
#
Giving headlines, giving captions.
#
Being really unhappy, actually, for that first one year.
#
Because, you know, firstly, I started off on a salary of maybe like 14,000 or something like that.
#
And maybe after my three years in business standard,
#
I would have gotten 24,000 or something like that.
#
And this was 2008, 2009, where the slowdown had started having,
#
you know, you were hearing of layoffs.
#
You were hearing of salary cuts.
#
And actually, so many things come to me now.
#
But one was that the salary was always very low.
#
And you were kind of doing this work.
#
For me, at least, I couldn't understand the point of what I was doing
#
because I wasn't interested in business.
#
I wasn't interested in economic journalism.
#
But of course, and this is the hard thing that journalism students should realize,
#
you are not going to land into a newsroom
#
and start writing beautifully from the very first day.
#
You're going to have this huge reality check
#
where your bosses will say, sit on the side and make a page.
#
Or, you know, go here and see why this didn't happen in the municipality.
#
Or do this crime story or whatever.
#
And there was a lot of dissatisfaction in the newsroom, also, if I remember now,
#
because at that point, what was happening,
#
there were pay cuts, there were layoffs.
#
This is the impact of 2008, 2009.
#
We were hearing, not just in business standard, but in the industry,
#
we were hearing of mass layoffs.
#
And in business standard, we would always cover stuff like,
#
you know, what's happening in the SME sector,
#
how many people laid off from this sector,
#
how many people laid off from IT.
#
And I would, and I think that is one of the reasons
#
why I eventually ended up in news laundry,
#
because we would be putting all this story to pages on pages
#
And then we would have discussions on, you know,
#
but this is also happening to us.
#
And there's no space for our stories.
#
The only organization that was doing it back then was The Hoot,
#
which we would read, you know,
#
and we would look at what was happening in the industry,
#
has there been a layoff here, a layoff there, whatever.
#
And I felt this deep sort of anger,
#
which I think a lot of my colleagues also felt
#
that we were not talking about, it felt hypocritical,
#
that we talked about everyone, politics,
#
bureaucracy, sports people, protests.
#
We questioned everyone, but somehow there was no space
#
for us to talk about ourselves.
#
And you were always told that that's not something that you do.
#
And, you know, the old fashioned thing was also that
#
if another paper broke a story, you'd say a week,
#
you know, a daily, a prominent economic daily,
#
reported, blah, blah, blah.
#
You'd never see Economic Times did this or that.
#
So there was just so much of,
#
there was just such a lack of conversation around ourselves
#
that that kind of upset me.
#
And these were recurring conversations
#
that we would often have in the newsroom.
#
There was this one very stark incident that I remember
#
of an honor killing of one of our colleagues.
#
I mean, honor killing, quote unquote.
#
She was a contemporary of mine.
#
We were together in IMC, except I was in Tengkalan
#
and she was in New Delhi.
#
But we came in the same batch.
#
And she was in love with a man, a boy,
#
I think, again, her classmate.
#
And she went back and she was very close to,
#
I was on the operated section.
#
So I was on one part of the newsroom
#
and she was on the news section.
#
So she was very close to the people doing the news pages.
#
And she went back and she didn't come.
#
And then there was panic in the newsroom and stuff like that.
#
Her friends were trying to get in touch with her
#
because I think they knew that she was going to go
#
inform her parents about the fact
#
that she's going to marry this person.
#
And next they got to know that she's no more.
#
And the parents obviously, I think if I'm not mistaken,
#
I can check this for you.
#
I think the initial thing was that she's killed herself.
#
And then it turned out, slowly it came out.
#
I think her boyfriend started speaking to the media.
#
He said that this is her parents.
#
I think her mother had called her back.
#
She had kind of told her that I'm really unwell or whatever.
#
And it turned out that it was a case of her parents murdering her.
#
And I think, I don't know what happened to the case finally.
#
But it was such a big story and we were a business paper
#
so we just didn't have it.
#
Now for us, it was such a big story.
#
Our colleague, I remember a letter from,
#
a mail from the editors also had come to us at that point
#
saying that condolences to the family or whatever we were with.
#
And that was so jarring for us.
#
And of course, it's naive.
#
A business paper is not going to put a story
#
on our killing on its front pages.
#
That's just not how it works.
#
I get where they were coming from.
#
But at that point, as young journalists,
#
this was just very upsetting to me and a lot of us.
#
So finally, I think we placed an ad, a condolence memorial,
#
kind of an ad in the paper, in remembrance kind of a thing for her.
#
But all this really got to me.
#
And I felt that you have to be talking about media,
#
you have to be talking about journalists.
#
And I think that really shaped,
#
I think that gave me some sort of an indication
#
of what I wanted to do in journalism.
#
And of course, then I moved on from business standard to DNA.
#
And that's another story altogether and we can get to that.
#
But I think in the early period of my career as a journalist,
#
that shift from being this floozy character
#
who thinks she's going to type a beautiful story and whatever,
#
finding some sort of purpose in journalism,
#
I think that period shaped me in that way.
#
That I immediately felt that it was important to talk about journalists.
#
Having said that, I learned a lot in business standard.
#
I think that I was terrible
#
and it was great to have bosses to tell me that I'm terrible.
#
I learned everything about language, about writing,
#
about brevity, about news.
#
Just because you feel for a story doesn't make it a story.
#
There are elements to a news story.
#
There's a reason why you can't take your audience for granted.
#
Simple things like why you need to,
#
even in a news story, you need to give context,
#
you need to give background,
#
but you can't labor a copy with all of that.
#
So all that I learned, I had fabulous bosses.
#
And I think it is still one of the very good places for anyone to learn.
#
Traditional mainstream news organization
#
where you still have people that you can really learn from.
#
And now when I think of young journalists joining like a Times Now,
#
I feel like, what do they learn?
#
Newsroom mentors, I really think about that.
#
I feel really lucky that I had bosses who
#
were really committed to the craft of bringing out a newspaper,
#
which is really amazing.
#
It means, in our current scenario,
#
a lot of journalists come into journalism and they're on digital.
#
And you make a mistake and you can just fix it within a minute.
#
And you don't even need to write a correction.
#
Most organizations don't even put a correction.
#
With newspaper, you understood the importance of being accurate.
#
You knew a mistake printed next day would be hugely embarrassing.
#
You'd be called up into the office.
#
You'd be asked, what the hell were you doing?
#
Why did you get this wrong?
#
You'd have to write a correction.
#
So all the discipline, I think, is very important.
#
I learned a lot of that in Business Standard.
#
In one of your pieces, you have the sentence quote,
#
if you are a broadcast journalist,
#
you are in the unenviable position to take inspiration from newsroom leaders
#
such as Sudhir Chaudhary, Deepak Chaurasia, Rajat Sharma,
#
Pannam Kashyav, Rugi Robina, like I had to get the drift.
#
When I look back and I kind of was in and out of journalism for a while,
#
not in a mainstream kind of way,
#
and my impression of it always was that it was essentially people were mediocre,
#
that if you came across a good editor somewhere, you were really lucky.
#
And there were excellent editors, kind of randomly strewn across
#
players, but you were very lucky to come across them.
#
But most were mediocre.
#
You would not really get, most people would not get good mentorship.
#
If you got it, you were lucky.
#
You were in the right place at the right time, and so on and so forth.
#
So is that an impression you would broadly agree with and be when you,
#
I'd like you to speak about both the editors and mentors you had in that phase of your
#
career and also what were the kind of things that you were sort of learning from them,
#
both about the craft and what you call the purpose of journalism.
#
So I think in terms of mentors and editors, I would say,
#
so starting with Business Standard, we had this, I was on the Op-Ed edit pages
#
for the first three years, I think that's all I did.
#
And then I moved out and we had this editor who'd been with,
#
I think Business Standard for about 20, 25 years now.
#
And I think she was an institution within Business Standard.
#
because she was A, a perfectionist, and she would demand that perfection out of you.
#
And you really had to live up to her standards of perfection.
#
And she was so good at everything that she did that you couldn't even grudge it against her.
#
A lot of times you have bosses who want that out of you, but they just can't do it themselves.
#
And then you kind of say, yeah, okay, I can't do anything myself.
#
But that was not the case with her.
#
She was just really, really excellent at her work.
#
And she was a terror, sort of a terror in the newsroom
#
because she would really get angry if you messed up with grammar.
#
And you could, I could, after a point, I could figure out,
#
you know, when she'd walk out of her cabin, I could tell from the tone of her heels.
#
If it's, that means I fucked up.
#
She's pacing down with the page to tell me, what the fuck have you done?
#
Or if it was a leisurely...
#
And what I learned from her, I think just really, just language, you know.
#
The first piece, in fact, I wrote was so terrible.
#
And I remember her completely reworking it and making it sound so smooth and beautiful.
#
A news piece cannot be laborious.
#
I think I learned that from her quite a bit, you know.
#
It cannot, you can't have the importance of an intro.
#
What does the first line mean?
#
Why should you be spending so much of your time figuring out your first 150 words?
#
What should you be conveying through those beginning words?
#
How do you conclude a story?
#
Words, just the economy of words, because you can only fit in,
#
you know, you only have so many columns to fit in.
#
So you don't have this luxury of just writing on and on, rolling on and on.
#
So I learned that a lot from her.
#
Just little things that she'd do in terms of how she'd cut a copy or,
#
you know, there's all these Indianisms that we've learned.
#
She used to have this one very concerned individual, you know.
#
We always write concerned authority or concerns like...
#
It is authority concerned, individual concerned.
#
It is not concerned, authority.
#
You know, silly things like that, but how we write so...
#
We write in a way which is so laborious sometimes and so, what do you call, bureaucratic.
#
And what was a bunch of other things, you know, like these little things I remember,
#
these little phrases that I learned to fix.
#
So I learned that from her.
#
She was also great in the sense that I was able to review books in my very second year.
#
Now, business standard book review pages are very prestigious.
#
Not everyone could just start reviewing books.
#
But once she, you know, kind of got confidence in what I could do,
#
she would give me books off and on because she also understood because I would...
#
After a point, I would pester her and say, actually, I want to be a writer.
#
And she would actually tell me back then that, look, anyone can be a writer,
#
report, it's very hard to edit.
#
And you can get a lot of reporters out there.
#
But editing is something you're not going to get.
#
So you should learn this.
#
And that's where the money is also chittoon.
#
Being able to edit because reporters come and go.
#
A lot of people can write.
#
But it's really the editors and the editing that makes a paper and a product.
#
So I also realized the importance of...
#
Because today, I think a lot of young people come in and they want their names,
#
they want their bylines, which is amazing to have your byline on a piece of story.
#
But the real magic is the editors.
#
Those are the guys who really make a story, can make a story come alive
#
or really give it a shape, which makes it readable.
#
That I think I kind of understood with her, thankfully.
#
And also, one important lesson I think also learned that it's good to have a life.
#
Because I remember she used to come like 10.30 and she would leave at 7.
#
She would just finish her work and leave.
#
Once in four years, she would take a long vacation.
#
I think a month or two off for her because she was a big football fan.
#
So she would take that whole month off to watch the game.
#
And that was her thing.
#
And then I think having the space to write is also great.
#
And I think that is one of the important things that a boss must do.
#
You should, especially in journalism, give people a hard time if you're the boss.
#
Because that's just the nature of the job.
#
If you want the job done, if you want it done well, you have to be hard.
#
But you also have to not learn to not hold a grudge.
#
So I could be shouted at one evening.
#
And I could be totally down on the dumps.
#
I said, shit, I did such a terrible job.
#
It was so embarrassing, my mistakes.
#
But the next day would be a new day.
#
So that's also something that I kind of I try and do now that I am a boss.
#
That I don't kind of hold it against someone for messing up.
#
DNA, I think by the end, because of the rigorous training I got there, I then moved on to DNA.
#
That was mostly to do with the fact that I didn't really see myself growing in a business paper
#
because I didn't have the interest to be in that space.
#
I wanted to write again, that key to write and report was there.
#
And I wasn't getting to do that.
#
I would be stuck making pages and editing.
#
And DNA gave me the opportunity to become a reporter and a feature writer.
#
And there we had, it was a crazy time again because DNA was perpetually launching in Delhi.
#
Every six months, there would be news that a paper is coming in Delhi.
#
So we came in with the expectation that we're going to be launching a paper that
#
never happened till I was there.
#
I started, I did a bit of election coverage for them.
#
And by that time, it was pretty clear where things are going in the newsroom.
#
Do you want me to get to that or do you want?
#
We'll come to everything.
#
No, I think I'm moving quite fast with all the...
#
I think 2014-13, it was pretty clear where things are going to go with newsroom
#
because the Modi phenomena had happened.
#
Editors were excited about it.
#
This was Subhash Chandra, obviously.
#
We were given clear instructions in the run-up to 2014 that we are...
#
One editor in Bombay very casually called me up once and said,
#
He's like, promo Di, you know, right?
#
And reporters and editors found this innovative way in DNA,
#
which was just hilarious, that they would write the copy
#
as whatever they want to write.
#
So even if it is something, you know, a rally,
#
which hasn't been attended well, a BJP rally,
#
they would give a very glossy headline,
#
but they'd write the truth in the copy
#
because the owners would, I guess, just look at the headline.
#
So sometimes the headline would be just completely opposite
#
to what the story said.
#
And yeah, I think I knew that if I'm going to be around here,
#
it's just going to be a lot of...
#
And it was a really hilarious incident
#
where we had started covering elections
#
I had done a bit of covering in Uttarakhand
#
and I had stopped in Dehradun at that point.
#
And I was talking to a lot of my relatives,
#
a lot of older people there.
#
And I realized that, you know, at that point,
#
we still saw Modi as this hardliner,
#
masculine, you know, RSS macho,
#
kind of his appeal among the Hindutva hardcore crowd.
#
That was still what, you know, the popular perception was.
#
And at that time, I was talking to a lot of women
#
and a lot of women liked him, you know.
#
A lot of women loved the way he spoke.
#
They loved what he represented.
#
And these are women, older generation,
#
that probably grew up reading Premchand,
#
you know, seeped in this socialist kind of Nehruvian idea.
#
And their sudden attraction to Modi,
#
I thought that was very interesting to do as a feature writer.
#
So I went and I pitched the story in the newsroom.
#
We were looking at features and I said,
#
you know, I think it's a very interesting thing.
#
And I was looking at it as a sociological thing.
#
Dekho Premchand se kaise ab hum Hindutva ke taraf.
#
You know, what could be the reason?
#
And the editor just, I think, heard women,
#
And he said, why don't we do this piece on
#
why housewives find Modi attractive?
#
So it turned into this completely
#
fluff piece that I had to do.
#
Then on, for your audience, I am the first journalist
#
to break the story on Modi's sexiness.
#
That story still exists on DNA.
#
And a lot of people followed it up.
#
But the story basically, you know,
#
because they got very excited,
#
Kiara, we'll do a feature story pushing Modi
#
as this, you know, amazing, whatever.
#
And I was told very clearly that look,
#
And the story is about why women love Modi.
#
And I was like, who do I talk to for this?
#
I spoke to, you know, this Mrs. Priyanka.
#
Mrs. Priyanka Gandhi, I think she's called.
#
She's a huge Mrs. Gandhi.
#
Back then, I think her name is Priyanka.
#
I mean, I don't know what, Preeti Gandhi.
#
Mrs. Gandhi, she's called at that time.
#
She was just an upcoming kind of an influencer,
#
And not decidedly political at that time.
#
So I thought, okay, I'll interview her.
#
I'll speak to Kavita Krishnan to get like a,
#
you know, a counter view.
#
And I was like, who do I talk to about sexiness of Modi?
#
I was like, let's call Chobade.
#
So I called up Chobade.
#
And she was like, oh, she was pretty like,
#
what nonsense, you know.
#
I don't know of these women that you're talking about.
#
I'll respond to you, whatever.
#
And then before my story could come out,
#
I saw she had done a column in Times of India
#
on Modi's sexiness that, you know,
#
I got a call from someone who told me that Modi is,
#
you know, women fancy him,
#
but I'm really surprised women fancy him or whatever.
#
So I was like, why have you written a whole column?
#
You're supposed to be responding to me.
#
So that was my first brush with my deep,
#
insightful story on Modi being stolen away for a column.
#
But anyway, so that was happening.
#
You know, this was a time where we knew
#
that everything was going to boil down to how Modi is great.
#
And I kind of understood that.
#
And I wanted to get out of that very quickly.
#
Right before the election results,
#
I then joined News Laundry.
#
That key of this, you know, everything.
#
Now the conversation has shifted from layoffs, job insecurity,
#
what the industry was going through,
#
you know, those were the conversations
#
journalists were having in business standard,
#
to DNA where we were talking about the space to do journalism.
#
You know, how can we do stories that can get published
#
while not sucking up to Modi of the BJP
#
or while being honest in what we saw
#
or while not being propagandists.
#
So those conversations were happening.
#
And I think that stayed with me, the need to tell our stories.
#
And News Laundry came as this, you know,
#
By then they were doing Clothesline.
#
It was a fabulous show that Madhu used to host,
#
used to just rip everyone, you know,
#
all the anchors and all the media personalities.
#
They were writing about media in a very cheeky way,
#
which I loved, you know, they were being irreverent.
#
They weren't taking journalists so seriously,
#
you know, and they told journalists to not take themselves so seriously.
#
So that really attracted me and I applied and I got through.
#
And then I have been with them since 2014 now.
#
So lots to double click on.
#
First, sort of a question on craft.
#
You spoke about, you know, the dichotomy
#
or the false dichotomy between editing and writing.
#
And it strikes me that if you learn how to edit,
#
you are automatically learning how to write much better.
#
Tell me a little bit about how that experience kind of shaped you
#
and just generally over the years, how you've grown as a writer,
#
because I would imagine that there is that,
#
like everybody, if they go into J school, they're young,
#
they're like caught up in the exuberance of their own writing, as it were.
#
Then you begin to work in a newsroom.
#
As you said, you were lucky enough to have people
#
who would push you and correct you and kind of teach you to edit.
#
The process of learning to edit must have helped you as a writer.
#
And later, I'm guessing later on down the line,
#
when you yourself become an editor and become a mentor to others,
#
just teaching them also would help you become much better
#
at your own craft of writing.
#
So just for a moment to focus on that craft itself,
#
writing and reporting together,
#
just take me a little bit through your journey of growth.
#
I think you're absolutely right.
#
You just become a much better writer if you learn to edit,
#
because you've gone through fixing so many bad copies
#
and you know what's making them bad.
#
I think what happens with a lot of reporters,
#
if you jump into this profession as a reporter,
#
if you're very sharp, then you can learn from the edits that are being made.
#
And again, like you said, a good mentor.
#
But often you don't realize what's wrong with your copy.
#
I think reporters file, they send it, and that's it.
#
And then, of course, there's that pure joy of breaking a story
#
where it doesn't matter what you write, what you did,
#
it's just the scoop that you've gotten.
#
I think that is also a huge part of what makes reporting so important.
#
But yeah, for me, for the last three, four years,
#
I've written very little and I really feel bad about that
#
because with the work in news laundry and with the show,
#
it takes up so much of my time.
#
So a lot of my writing has now become for the visual medium,
#
which again had to unlearn a lot of things
#
that I learned as someone that wrote for a paper or just text.
#
Because so many things visually, you don't need to write it.
#
You can just communicate it through visual.
#
So it's a completely different kind of writing.
#
So unfortunately, I don't think I've...
#
And I would like to do that.
#
I think I feel a little underconfident now of...
#
I think I'd be a little daunted if I was to just do a text piece now
#
because I'm so used to video.
#
But now this is very hilarious
#
because I spend most of my time as a print journalist.
#
But now I'd feel like if...
#
And that again comes from the fact that I have...
#
My first work as a journalist was an editor.
#
So I'm very conscious of a bad sentence.
#
The moment I write a bad sentence, I know it's shit.
#
And I know it's so clunky or that it's...
#
So I'm so critical that I won't get beyond that first 150 words.
#
Often this has happened.
#
This has happened to me a lot of late
#
that I can't get past beyond my own bad writing
#
because the editor in me is like,
#
It's such a clunky sentence.
#
Do you even need to write this?
#
I don't think anyone benefits from it.
#
I think with editing broadly, you learn, of course, language.
#
Why it's important to be brief,
#
why it's important to respect your audience's time.
#
They're not going to listen to you or read you.
#
Every sentence has to lead to another sentence
#
which is worth their time.
#
I think and that you learn in journalism a lot
#
because it is about time.
#
There's plenty of things happening in a day.
#
You've chosen to speak about this one thing
#
and you need to capture your audience's attention
#
You better make it impactful
#
because that's how they will listen to you
#
So that first important thing you learn as an editor
#
and you learn it because you're cutting sentences,
#
you're shortening them,
#
you're putting the correct punctuation,
#
you're using one word instead of five words
#
but you're essentially doing it
#
because you respect your audience's time.
#
You want to get them to read the news
#
and get them to understand the impact
#
of what you're trying to say
#
and you want to make sure
#
that they don't just leave your story halfway.
#
and I think that's a very valuable thing as a reporter
#
because when you're on the field
#
and that's how I've worked as a reporter also strangely.
#
Sometimes I'm editing on the field
#
back when I used to do a lot of reporting.
#
but I would just know instantly
#
that's a quote that's going in,
#
So you learn all this a lot when you're editing.
#
this has to be in the beginning.
#
What can I say that will grab the attention
#
right at the beginning?
#
importance of the economy of words
#
and of course if you're a news professional
#
why are you saying the story?
#
What can you write in your story
#
that can make your audience understand
#
why you're writing this
#
or why we've chosen to focus
#
on this particular piece of news
#
when there are a thousand other things
#
that are happening around the world
#
or around the city or country or whatever.
#
So those things I learned very well for three years
#
and I think that really helped me as
#
so it helped me in the way that my copies
#
I would be able to tell a good story
#
but I think it also worked against me
#
and I think that's one of the reasons
#
why I haven't written enough
#
is because I get very critical of my own writing
#
and that's because of your training as an editor
#
you can spot a bad sentence
#
even if it's coming from you.
#
I think reporters fall in love with what they write
#
for them and they argue with you
#
the standard desk versus reporter fight
#
and this sentence is important put it back in
#
and you have to convince the editor
#
or sometimes the editor gets convinced
#
sometimes the reporter needs to be convinced
#
but I think that's a fundamental difference
#
between editing and reporting
#
and especially in journalism
#
that reporters just love everything they write
#
every piece of detail is important
#
they can't have this slight distance from the story
#
that can make the story better
#
and I think editors have that
#
they realize why a certain thing needs to go
#
because there's a bit of distance
#
and it's I mean good editors
#
actually they're gods I think in journalism
#
and you don't get and we don't have enough
#
of that you know the mentorship problem also
#
because I think somewhere down the line
#
also with everything that news had to do
#
with constraints on resources
#
you know one journalist doing five five beats
#
an editor having to make a page
#
five six pages for you know 10 15 editions
#
so it's not even their fault sometimes
#
and when they're unable to mentor
#
and unable to excel in their own kind of departments
#
and I also want to ask about that
#
because you know this is of course
#
from an editor's point of view
#
you're so busy you're doing so much
#
it's also true from a reporter's point of view
#
that on the one hand because of shrinking resources
#
journalists have been forced
#
to become more and more generalists
#
that you're doing three stories a day
#
and one day you're on this beat
#
the other day you're on that beat
#
the beat reporter has vanished
#
and more than that there are already the imperatives
#
that different forms force upon you
#
when you were writing for a newspaper
#
you had to be super careful
#
because this thing is coming on print
#
you can't hit that space after that
#
so you are spending the time doing that story
#
and doing the due diligence
#
if you're an online site only
#
maybe that same imperative doesn't really matter
#
you can put a correction out there
#
your analytics guys will tell you that volume matters
#
so you have to keep putting stories out
#
there is greater pressure on journalists
#
to do more and more work
#
I was chatting a couple of days back with Seema Goswami
#
that episode will probably release after this
#
but she spoke about her time in Sunday
#
which was of course a weekly magazine
#
and how much more time they had to do stories
#
and all the imperatives and incentives
#
are therefore different
#
if you're doing a 3000 word story for a magazine
#
or you're doing an 800 word report for a newspaper
#
or you're filing 100 words for something that is online
#
or you're tweeting something
#
the form kind of keeps changing
#
so how much do you think
#
that has kind of impacted the way journalism is done today
#
because what has also happened is that
#
even old school forms like newspapers
#
seem to increasingly take their cues
#
more and more from what is trending online
#
so the Twitter hashtag suddenly becomes something
#
that editors are looking at and saying
#
huh this is in the news
#
let's do a story on this
#
and that can lead to this self-defeating vicious circle
#
where you just spiral all the way to the bottom
#
it's happening a lot on news channels though
#
I think newspapers are still a little careful about that
#
and there's the web department
#
that will take care of the trending story
#
I think the front page is still a little insulated from that
#
you know often like for example now
#
Seema Haider is all over the news cycle
#
and you have a great video on her
#
but we haven't seen it on the front pages thankfully
#
a little bit just in the beginning
#
because it was a curious story
#
but I think newspapers are largely insulated from it
#
just made me think that
#
you know when I became a journalist
#
we were given a choice of desk
#
paid making or go to the web section
#
and it was like punishment
#
it was really considered as he
#
the worst of the worst probably worked there
#
or the most inconsequential
#
and it's completely changed
#
I mean the change has been radical
#
on the importance of the web desk
#
not even a web desk now
#
you have you know all papers have a different dot com entity
#
especially journalists who
#
like we have constantly have
#
you know have conversations
#
on the importance of deadline in the newsroom
#
because with digital it's
#
a deadline is just no longer a deadline
#
you know like the way we had to
#
otherwise you're losing ads
#
you're setting off the whole cycle of printing back
#
by one minute which was losing money
#
and that was drilled into you
#
there was just no way that you could do it
#
no matter what happened
#
that importance of a deadline
#
which I think is very important for journalists
#
that is one change I see
#
with the advent of digital journalism
#
I don't hold it against
#
that now you have the luxury
#
that you have the luxury to now update a piece
#
it's fine we're in times of digital
#
it's fine if you get new information
#
it's great to update it
#
it's great to issue corrections
#
what really gets me is that
#
there's a lack of accountability
#
you know with the newspaper it's printed
#
people can say listen you publish this
#
now you better put a correction in the same place
#
there's no footprint so to speak
#
physical proof of how you screwed up
#
so organizations can have this easy way
#
of just pulling a story down
#
and pretend like it never happened
#
something we're very militant about in news laundry
#
that was changed at this
#
because we made this mistake
#
and it was updated to this
#
the reporter should also feel that
#
under their byline there's a correction
#
which can sometimes be embarrassing
#
so it's good for you to be embarrassed by it
#
because you made it in the first place
#
but also honesty with your audience
#
what happens in a lot of organizations
#
and not digital organizations
#
I'm talking about mainstream organizations also
#
there's no accountability
#
there's no accountability
#
you've got something completely wrong
#
then someone reaches out to you
#
and says this was highly responsible
#
like that never happened
#
and don't issue a correction
#
so that I think is a very dangerous thing
#
it deteriorates your trust with the audience
#
and the audience's trust
#
you know as a rigorous exercise
#
journalists can write anything they want to
#
because we've also been very reckless
#
with how we've treated stories
#
the convenience of not having to be
#
very accountable to your audience
#
I want to also ask you about
#
like earlier you spoke about purpose
#
and we of course spoke about
#
why an individual may get into journalism
#
and the different reasons for that
#
the larger why of journalism
#
like how does one look at journalism
#
as an economic activity
#
people want to be informed
#
your duties to your shareholders
#
so that is one kind of rational
#
talks of like a higher purpose
#
you have fidelity to the truth
#
you know all the cliches
#
the first draft of history
#
speaking truth to power
#
all of those come into play
#
you know how is your thinking
#
of what that why should be
#
because then that would then dictate
#
what do you choose to do
#
even in the online world
#
or any editor decides to do
#
is you can do 800 things
#
you're choosing 10 things
#
and saying this is what is important to us
#
this is what we are going to do
#
you know and every choice of a story
#
is in a sense a story in itself
#
like earlier you said that
#
if you're doing a news report
#
you need to find a way to communicate
#
why you're doing that news report to the reader
#
why is it important to you
#
so how do you think about that
#
because especially in these times
#
it seems that it's really easy
#
to take the first rationale
#
which is respectable enough
#
supply and demand and all of that
#
and use that as a way to
#
you know do whatever you do
#
I'm driven by this higher set of values
#
and also what seems to happen
#
to take it to the other extreme
#
good rigorous journalism
#
has become so difficult these days
#
that anyone who's doing it
#
seems almost like an activist
#
and you should not have to be
#
an activist fighting the tide
#
if you're doing journalism right
#
so what are sort of your thoughts on all this
#
you know I've been really thinking
#
about this purpose of journalism
#
because we've started this election show
#
where we hit the ground
#
for about 15 days or so
#
and we've been to Punjab
#
so we did the whole 2022 cycle basically
#
why do journalists do what they do
#
sort of self-doubt also on
#
am I meaningful to people
#
because when I talk to people
#
because when I'm doing pure news
#
it's so hyper-polarized all the time
#
you know you're battling between extremes
#
and especially the nature of nuisance
#
where we're fighting one extremity
#
and you're just trying to get everything
#
but yeah when you talk to people
#
when you go to villages
#
when you're just in the middle of
#
democracy as it unfolds
#
and because journalism and democracy
#
I think they're very entwined
#
when you think about journalism
#
you think about being in a democratic setup
#
and what better way than elections
#
to sort of go and figure out
#
everything that's happening
#
and the conversations that people want to have
#
they're so far removed from
#
what journalists think their aim is
#
sounding too vague about it
#
but I have been thinking that
#
and we're talking about
#
right after Covid Uttar Pradesh
#
we're talking to people about
#
what it was like for them
#
you know we heard like in one village
#
after everything that we'd seen
#
you know those horrible images of bodies
#
where people basically tell us
#
how thankful they are to the government
#
they didn't starve during Covid
#
the Modi government specifically
#
aur kya ghar pe aake khana maina hai tumhe le
#
so he's done so much for us
#
when you have conversations about this
#
the whole thing around it
#
is so polarized in the sense that
#
you don't want to understand
#
where that person is really coming from
#
how much of journalistic writing
#
this sense of gratitude
#
because the conversations around
#
Uttar Pradesh elections
#
were so much about the viciousness of
#
it was purely people telling us
#
Muslims have been put in their place
#
but there was also this other side to it
#
the more and more I consume news
#
because I consume a lot of
#
mainstream television news
#
it is just so polarized
#
that we are unable to really look at
#
the real nuances of what
#
a person does when they make
#
or for example when you
#
we were going from one university
#
Gorakhpur University also we went
#
just really bright young people
#
and I felt really depressed
#
after meeting them because
#
you know they know everything
#
to the impact that their Vidhayak has
#
that are available to them
#
an uncertain future facing them
#
you know in terms of jobs
#
who are saying that you know
#
like there's no other option for us
#
we are in a job of 8000
#
you know in Gorakhpur University
#
there should be respect
#
we should not roam around
#
I feel like we're failing
#
in bringing out conversations
#
but yeah the purpose of journalism
#
what we were talking about
#
you know very good at what they do
#
and still doing amazing journalism
#
there is that one stream
#
it's information gathering
#
it's to give you something
#
information about something
#
that you didn't already know about
#
whether it's in your city
#
your state or your country
#
essential purpose should be
#
to make something clearer
#
I think just to be able
#
around what's happening around us
#
if people have voted for
#
Yogi in the way they did
#
of what's happening here
#
if there is despondency
#
they see for themselves
#
is landing a government job
#
so I think those stories
#
how can we make the world
#
and I know I'm simplifying
#
am I doing this you know
#
I mean it can in other ways
#
the problem with journalism
#
is that you might say that
#
bring clarity to everything
#
we live in the kind of age
#
politics plays such a huge part
#
where there are so few journalists
#
actually doing journalism
#
then at a personal level
#
that if you want to swim
#
you are almost by default
#
carrying out an act of rebellion
#
almost like an activist
#
it is kind of political
#
when you are a journalist
#
and you are writing about
#
especially when you are covering
#
so much to be frustrated about
#
like all these young people
#
they can really give you
#
they can tell you about politics
#
honestly like I felt so
#
I felt like I really know nothing
#
when I was listening to them
#
came from this real space
#
and a family friendly version of
#
like to hell with the world
#
you just want to do your thing
#
and I do feel like that
#
everything is going to hell
#
you are not going to make a difference
#
do you feel like that sometimes
#
that what is this higher purpose
#
I mean I question a lot about
#
how much of an impact is it making
#
you can't keep thinking
#
you won't be able to do anything
#
if you keep thinking about that
#
I think the big shift also
#
the nature of consuming news
#
there is so much of information available
#
I think a lot of young people just
#
actually listen to influencers
#
when they want to make up their mind
#
they will go to their favorite influencer
#
and they will get a wrap of
#
and I think the one important thing is
#
where we were telling the world
#
or we had this thing of
#
I think that has changed a lot
#
are no longer looking up
#
how to think about something
#
the news that they consume
#
because of the sheer amount of stuff
#
that's available on internet
#
move from one thing to the other
#
I don't get disheartened very easily
#
the big thing that I really think about is
#
like why am I telling the story
#
how can I connect with my audience
#
I still have that driving me
#
to a large number of people
#
never come to news laundry
#
or read a piece written by me
#
experimenting with video
#
talking to your audience
#
how can we connect with our audience
#
that kind of excites me
#
even with like say a product
#
which is a critique of television news
#
I know that we are small
#
volume of television news propaganda
#
no matter what we say about
#
no matter what we say about
#
and on and on about that
#
a huge part of India believes that
#
and the girlfriend had something
#
if I start thinking about
#
was I able to really fight it
#
I would just stop doing it
#
but I don't focus too much
#
I just focus on what I can do
#
and how many people can I reach
#
and how relevant can I be
#
to that set of audience
#
and how much can I grow doing that
#
very terribly cynical about
#
everything is going to hell
#
you know while traveling
#
thinking about journalism
#
I think because it gives me
#
a little break from the newsroom
#
you know what stories are we telling
#
are we connecting with people
#
how relevant are we to them
#
what is also the purpose of journalism
#
in that you were saying that
#
is it also just information
#
just also just giving them
#
a clearer picture on something
#
or just making them think sometimes
#
leaving them with a question
#
so those kind of things I think of
#
and that makes me push towards
#
that could be interesting and engaging
#
podcasts being one of them
#
what you do for example
#
with your podcast is not journalism
#
I don't know if you would define it that way
#
it would be more important
#
than the newspaper of the day
#
you know in terms of what it adds value
#
so I think you have to start
#
thinking about journalism also like that
#
you know what can it be
#
beyond what it is just supposed to be
#
while doing the podcast is that
#
we don't think often enough
#
about how audiences engage with content
#
and we just look at the number of people
#
a hundred thousand listeners
#
watching a YouTube video
#
because the drop off rate
#
there is incredibly high
#
and here I'll have an average session time
#
of 40 minutes or whatever it is like
#
you said podcast engagement rates are high
#
and also that therefore
#
I might in absolute terms
#
have a much smaller number of people
#
that I'm reaching out to
#
but the but it's really impacting them
#
it's a self-selected group obviously
#
a lot of my guests will often comment
#
that hey your listeners
#
are so different from everyone else
#
because you know you're not
#
in the narrative battles
#
and they're you know not looking
#
but they really want to know
#
and they're perfectly happy
#
if you don't give answers
#
you know and I'm wondering
#
and especially with our subscribers
#
I think they're a wonderful bunch
#
of discerning news consumers
#
and again like we don't need
#
you know exactly with my show
#
it's great to be watched
#
and it's great when you
#
don't even watch the video
#
they say I saw your reel
#
now it's not even a YouTube video
#
because my friends would joke
#
five years later you'll be
#
it's always how many people
#
to pay for what we're doing
#
you know pay to do the sort of
#
news that we want to do
#
we have like seven reporters
#
we've been able to cover Manipur
#
we've been able to cover Orissa
#
you know we're going to be
#
because we have a bunch
#
of subscribers who really
#
believe in what we're doing
#
which is just audacious
#
without any advertisements
#
even to the extent that
#
that really sticks with you
#
the news laundry audience
#
is they often write back
#
stupid when you said that
#
read up a little bit on that
#
change your views on this
#
with what you're saying
#
and that's deeply rewarding
#
that we've been able to
#
being able to cover covid
#
as extensively as we could
#
people who believe in us
#
ever giving them a line
#
you know how amazing it is
#
that you guys get to report
#
be useful tell good stories
#
get this story back for me
#
the dissatisfaction comes from
#
for the prime time show
#
so we have to get a bite
#
and that's so disheartening
#
that journalism stands for
#
which is first curiosity
#
you know entering a story
#
bumble your way around it
#
what you find on the ground
#
this amazing bunch of people
#
and the TV news channels
#
TV production than journalism
#
you know before we go in
#
I want to ask a question
#
when we were talking earlier
#
how it's different from video
#
in another critical way
#
the reporter herself is absent
#
it is actually critical
#
if you are present in that
#
as it would otherwise be
#
you know my favorite compliment
#
sitting in a living room
#
I think all good creators
#
different from journalism
#
what becomes important is that
#
that relationship of trust
#
that you're talking about
#
in fact you know my team
#
that's happened post Covid
#
the videos that tend to do well
#
they aren't very well produced
#
this feeling of being alone
#
we wanted to connect to people
#
that were just talking to us
#
and I still know of a bunch of
#
that they have a viewership
#
just sitting in his office
#
and just talking to you
#
because he's just talking to you
#
you're having a drawing room
#
your uncle talking to you
#
so yeah that is a feature
#
YouTuber kind of a space
#
I've been doing nuisance
#
only over the last one year
#
because it's in me to do it
#
be flippant with the line
#
just because it's Manisha talking
#
I have been very conscious about
#
even though it's a lot of fun
#
it's supposed to be satire
#
and we do a lot of things
#
from the beginning of it
#
in the sense that everything
#
exactly as it should be
#
have spent a lot of like
#
initially the jokes are not
#
I would sit a lot with Abhinandan
#
because humor is not something
#
very naturally in the beginning
#
I rarely ever did anything
#
I would really evaluate
#
if I am talking about Manipur
#
I and that very disturbing video
#
the first instinct of mine
#
you wanted to just abuse
#
and then you just wanted to cry
#
that something like this
#
their audience's attention
#
just that breaking down
#
it's a Hindi YouTube show
#
he had this really angry
#
screaming at the screen
#
that you're talking about
#
what Manisha wants to say
#
I don't really go by that
#
my journalistic training also
#
there's a little bit of distance
#
and what finally goes in
#
and it's really hard sometimes
#
because we watch a lot of crap
#
and we watch a lot of toxic stuff
#
sometimes we just want to abuse people
#
which I've now recently
#
and my team would often use it
#
put it or put in a thumbnail
#
it was the longest time
#
even if I felt that way
#
really polarized an audience
#
I didn't want to call them Godi
#
I wanted to be more about
#
what they're doing wrong
#
what they could have done right
#
why this particular news
#
crap from WhatsApp is wrong
#
and I felt just labelling
#
on the critique that I put in
#
to call someone Godi media
#
because of the sheer stuff
#
that we've been watching
#
there's just no other way
#
Ravish has coined Godi media
#
because of my journalistic training
#
I think Abhinandan in that sense
#
if you've seen some of his nuisances
#
because he doesn't have that burden
#
he's a media professional
#
so I'm still very cautious
#
about what I'm putting out there
#
and I don't typically behave
#
in the sense I'm not that free
#
with how I'd say something
#
on cycling for some reason
#
though I don't cycle myself
#
called the Lantern Roots
#
called Patrick and Benji
#
and they're really good
#
and a couple of months ago
#
a cyclist died tragically
#
where they discussed it
#
Patrick just started crying
#
and I think everyone who watched it
#
of course cried with him
#
that kind of authenticity
#
I won't use the term influencers
#
negative connotation for me
#
I think all the good creators
#
they're kind of bearing themselves
#
and that authenticity is there
#
but it's very interesting
#
clarify your thinking on this
#
and correct me if I'm wrong
#
and it's what you genuinely feel
#
you don't want to go to the level
#
where you just show your anger
#
you're really pissed off
#
so I would love to see that
#
but that's my kind of bias
#
that I like to see that emotion
#
completely different level
#
that's the next frontier for me
#
that's the next frontier
#
it's a journalistic thing
#
but I also find it a bit
#
just talk about how you feel
#
when this whole Manipur thing happened
#
there's something horrific
#
has happened to these women
#
and to then make it about
#
my anger just feels a bit
#
you know I've carved a very
#
for myself as a journalist
#
when there's so much happening
#
do I want to make the centerpiece
#
about how I react to it
#
though I get your point
#
you're essentially giving people
#
an outlet for their own catharsis
#
because you feel through that
#
and it kind of stands out
#
there's something real there
#
that the person has made it
#
when you see that video
#
when you talk about someone's
#
I think there is something
#
you know just being yourself
#
only in this kind of work
#
I would sometimes do that
#
now I'm also very careful
#
for some reason I find it again
#
I feel a little uncomfortable
#
while talking to the audience
#
but I did kind of make that
#
conscious effort of saying
#
I'm not going to do that
#
I completely get your point
#
and I just have a question though
#
when they bare themselves
#
or sometimes you want to see them angry
#
that it's going to click
#
or because it's just how it is
#
if it's fake you always know
#
I think what often happens
#
except the overall approach
#
but I kind of bare myself
#
people have cried on my show
#
we've laughed on my show
#
I think listeners know that
#
these are who the people they are
#
you can't do journalism like that
#
when you talk of newspaper journalism
#
I think you're not in a purely
#
journalistic world either
#
when you're doing a show
#
you've got your own style
#
your own way of reacting to things
#
and everybody who watches anything
#
watches it because of the person
#
so the personal then becomes important
#
these are not like disembodied words
#
I think what I'm driven by really
#
and maybe that part of my persona shows
#
to make something toxic
#
is if you can just poke fun at them
#
and you bring it down a little
#
you prick that bubble of
#
the self-important anchor
#
who's speaking for the nation
#
who's going to be talking about how
#
a girlfriend ruined a boyfriend's life
#
and he was driven to kill himself
#
and I think the best way to do that
#
is that you just make fun of them
#
sometimes it's very effective
#
I've always kind of believed that
#
you can bring something sinister
#
making fun of it in a way that exposes it
#
now if you're a Muslim today
#
and you're watching television news
#
I really don't know what they go through
#
channel after channel after channel
#
the news is how what you're eating is wrong
#
what you're wearing is wrong
#
who you may fall in love is wrong
#
jihad your only job is conversion
#
comment under one of the videos that I've done
#
that we don't pray five times a day
#
they think we're in the time of conversion
#
we pray five times a day
#
and I thought that was just
#
as a Muslim guy obviously
#
so that was such a funny way
#
to just burst this whole
#
jihad sinister conspiracy
#
which can otherwise be so toxic and poisonous
#
and it has a real world impact
#
in the hate that we see in society divisions
#
or just sometimes even in hate crimes
#
in the kind of conversations
#
you're having in school now
#
so I have believed that
#
I definitely make a conscious effort
#
to kind of inject in the show
#
bring these people down
#
or we're going to expose them
#
by just tracking a joke
#
whether it's their style
#
whether it's a substance
#
and that I think is the bigger technique
#
than maybe bearing myself out
#
or speaking about how I feel
#
about a particular news show
#
and satire is obviously brilliant
#
at sort of just exposing
#
the ridiculousness of something
#
in such a way that you can't help
#
but laughing you do that so incredibly
#
we don't even have to do much
#
you know we just have to pick clips
#
I mean our job is super easy
#
and satire is I think huge
#
like it requires a lot of talent to do that
#
but here we're just showing people
#
and you know it's satire in itself
#
no I would give you much more credit than that
#
you guys are really good
#
and you also avoid a bunch of traps
#
and I want to ask you about
#
what you think about them
#
and one of them is that
#
especially if you're watching what you do
#
and I don't know how you watch
#
so much news television
#
there is so much low-hanging fruit out there
#
like things are just so
#
incredibly ridiculous by themselves
#
that I don't think you would have ever had trouble
#
ki aaj content kya kare kahan se dhonde
#
and the other danger also is that
#
making fun of something
#
you know mockery is easy
#
they are much lower forms
#
but my biggest complaint
#
for example with social media
#
is that it is full of snark and mockery
#
and no engagement at all
#
and there are some things
#
that there is no option
#
and you know they are satirical
#
but also in that approach
#
of treating everything with satire
#
and I've never seen you do this
#
but I think it's a danger with satire
#
therefore I'm sure you've thought about this
#
and seen it happen elsewhere
#
that the danger then is
#
that sometimes the engagement
#
that sometimes a matter
#
and you know you could get asked
#
that hey okay fine great satire
#
we laughed apne 2-3 joke maare
#
but you know this deserves more
#
though frankly I can't think of anything
#
any of that being true for news television
#
because it is just so out and out ridiculous today
#
but these are the inherent dangers
#
so what is the kind of thinking
#
because it is not just about
#
you know you can do satire
#
but sometimes you can just go too far
#
and sometimes it is facile
#
so how do you deal with those things?
#
So again like because we're doing this for news laundry
#
and we essentially see ourselves as journalists
#
just experimenting with another form
#
to connect with our audience right
#
we want to communicate with them
#
we want to see what's clicking with them
#
and so we've chosen this format
#
the purpose very much still remains
#
getting people to think about
#
what's happening around them
#
this is very important that
#
I don't want to get into
#
what your preferences are
#
you like Modi you don't like Modi
#
I just want you to have better expectations of your news
#
as a person whoever you voted for
#
you need your news people
#
to be talking about real issues
#
whether it's bad urban planning in your city
#
because of which your cars are drowning
#
or whether it's the tomato prices
#
or whether it's the prejudice
#
that's being seeped into your head every day
#
and so we're really driven by that fact
#
that everything that we do
#
we want people to expect better
#
and so we also have to do better
#
we can't just do a little
#
make a reel and get leads
#
we want to be able to communicate to people
#
that this is what the story is
#
this is what you should be caring about today
#
you know prime time was devoted
#
inaugurating a convention center
#
and saying wow what an amazing job
#
while Manipur has happened
#
and he hasn't spoken about it in parliament
#
a state divided completely along ethnic lines
#
I mean when was the last time
#
when you heard a new story
#
where police is saying on record
#
that we were unable to investigate this case
#
because that's a cookie area
#
and we are maithis and we can't go there
#
you know or this complete division
#
where the police is saying that
#
okay we need the army to check
#
because there's been a disappearance
#
we don't know where they are
#
they were probably murdered
#
but we can't go there and check
#
we need the army to check
#
because that's a cookie area we are maithis
#
such a thing is happening in a state
#
a convention center has been inaugurated
#
so we mock the absurdity of it
#
and this you know hilarious speech
#
that I thought Piyush Goyal gave
#
before the prime minister came on
#
we talk about how Arnab is
#
I've just come back from the inauguration
#
but then we also want to draw your attention
#
to what should have happened
#
I think maybe some form of news literacy
#
but we want to tell people that look
#
we have political choices
#
but media has a specific role
#
which is to question people in power
#
not go after Rahul Gandhi
#
night after night after night
#
because he's not in power
#
it is about being factual
#
talking about Mandir Masjid
#
and what's happening in Gyan Vyappi
#
when you have serious issues
#
you know plaguing the country
#
for example malnutrition deaths
#
so we want to be able to do that
#
and I think that really drives
#
the we can never fall into that trap
#
because we are very conscious about
#
making people think about media
#
that they need to expect more
#
and so we also need to be delivering more
#
than just you know the laughs basically
#
and your video on the Piyush Goel speech
#
I was totally LOL while watching that
#
and the tragedy there is not
#
that he gives a speech like that
#
but that every news channel
#
is basically doing a Piyush Goel only
#
right it's it's it's the same damn thing
#
yeah we wanted people to
#
you know like it was so jarring
#
for us to watch that in a week
#
when it hadn't even been a week
#
since that video had come out
#
I mean it's that's again
#
satire just writing itself
#
it could just be a movie you know
#
just complete absurdity
#
and we really wanted that to shine through
#
that you need people to think
#
are we supposed to be now saying
#
because convention center
#
I don't want I want to be able to
#
reach out to people also
#
who may not agree with me
#
and the best way to do that
#
is not getting the politics
#
just expect better from your media
#
even if you love this government
#
there are certain parameters
#
you should be judging it
#
please know what those parameters are
#
and the role of journalists
#
what those parameters should be
#
that's so beautifully put
#
and I must say in defense of
#
actually then I've come for convention centers
#
some people like convention centers
#
we did an exhibition with difficulty
#
let's discuss our favorite
#
have you always wanted to be a writer
#
but never quite gotten down to it
#
well I'd love to help you
#
27 cohorts of my online course
#
see art of clear writing
#
and an online community
#
of all my past students
#
a newsletter to showcase
#
and vibrant community interaction
#
spread over four weekends
#
and practice of clear writing
#
there are many exercises
#
the course costs rupees 10,000 plus GST
#
head on over to register
#
doesn't require God-given talent
#
just a willingness to work hard
#
welcome back to the scene
#
I'm chatting with Manisha Pandey
#
let's continue your sort of
#
when you said that around 2013
#
that the air is changing
#
and things are changing fundamentally
#
ask you to elaborate on that
#
two broad ways that I can think of
#
things are pretty bad already
#
journalists were always pliant
#
there is that comment by
#
and journalism was always mediocre
#
like in the 80s and 90s
#
you know the people who become journalists
#
do so because they failed
#
I have the talent to be a writer
#
oh god I have to put my foot in it
#
or the hard work of being an actor
#
yeah but you are right in that
#
definitely in the last 8-9 years
#
things have really moved
#
and changed in really fundamental ways
#
and I want you to talk about this
#
experiential point of view
#
like when did you begin to realize
#
and all is too far away for us
#
even as journalism students
#
but it was never something that
#
we were deeply moved by
#
so you know it's too far away
#
this online site says 88
#
which has some kind of profile
#
Manisha Pandey was born
#
to high caste parents in 1988
#
what a strange thing to write
#
so called parents for sure
#
the problems that we were grappling with
#
increasingly there was no time
#
so if you wanted to be a beat reporter
#
and you wanted to really
#
as your area of interest
#
or you just were given that beat
#
you wouldn't have the time to excel in it
#
you would be given commerce with it
#
covering industry with it
#
so journalists having to do
#
four to five things together
#
if I'm on the desk then
#
be given the time to maybe say
#
rewrite a piece over a day
#
what it takes to make a piece
#
grammar check on five six copies
#
so that was always an issue
#
and again that's a problem of finance
#
constraints of resources
#
you just needed more people to do
#
you couldn't really excel
#
in one particular thing
#
that call from the editor in Bombay
#
that was surprising to me
#
so there was always this problem
#
I remember very clearly that
#
when the Anna moment was happening
#
and now when I look back
#
who my editors would have voted for
#
or what was their ideological leaning
#
maybe also because I was too junior
#
so I wasn't in on those conversations
#
but it wasn't something that I could
#
it wasn't a conversation in the newsroom
#
but I remember clearly that
#
there was a lot of disdain
#
for the India Against Corruption movement
#
now you could disagree with that movement
#
and you could think that
#
could sense this disdain also
#
that these bunch of nobodies
#
are challenging this elite
#
and you could sense that
#
some of the discomfort with IAC came also
#
because it was a direct attack on congress
#
I couldn't put two into two or whatever
#
but now when I look back
#
that time you did have a lot of newspapers
#
who were very close to the system
#
and they didn't like that system being challenged
#
we heard of stories of calls being made
#
because somebody in the congress
#
was made to not look nice
#
for all the power that she held
#
we now want Modi to engage with
#
so all that was happening
#
but to me as a young journalist
#
this was never an overbearing thing
#
I think that changed fundamentally in 2013
#
so I wouldn't be in on what the editors
#
what they were thinking ideologically
#
who they leaned on politically
#
but I was still a very young staff writer
#
and I did get a very senior editor
#
to tell me look we're promo
#
so that was a bit distinct to me
#
that it's not even through my boss
#
and it's not even in a roundabout way
#
it's very directly to me
#
that you cannot be writing this
#
and you make sure the story reads well
#
you have to read the recent CSDS report
#
which I was speaking about earlier
#
which is the first of its kind survey
#
includes a mix of Hindi, English
#
80% of the journalists surveyed
#
feel that their organization favors the BJP
#
who have lost their jobs
#
because of their political ideology
#
and a sizable percentage of journalists
#
feel insecure today in newsrooms
#
they could lose their jobs
#
because of their political ideology
#
or what they may stand for
#
this was not the case in newsrooms
#
you know even reporters to feel that way
#
of course there were pulls and pushes
#
but I honestly didn't know what
#
which way my editors were leaning
#
closeness and network existed
#
about what kind of stories can go
#
even if they were meeting
#
or were part of the same network
#
the standard jibe at NDTV
#
Latteans Delhi kind of journalism
#
where everyone's friends with everyone
#
everyone's meeting everyone
#
and you know sitting together
#
and chilling with each other
#
but if you still had a story
#
you could go ahead with it
#
you know it wasn't so blatant
#
against the current government would run
#
and I think that has changed
#
because I left so quickly
#
I kind of saw where this was going
#
which was just a remarkably
#
so I didn't really personally
#
wasn't very very impacted by that
#
I moved at the right time
#
and a bunch of my friends
#
at that time actually made
#
you know who moved from
#
a couple of others again
#
made that digital shift
#
so I think we got really lucky
#
because right at the right time
#
we took the risk of moving away
#
that would be okay for us
#
and you mentioned sort of
#
under both dispensations
#
you know first Chidambaram
#
got rid of Raju Narasetti at Mint
#
Arun Jaitley allegedly did the same
#
the industry is structured
#
all our big media houses
#
interests in other areas
#
so you might own a big newspaper
#
but you also own a chemical factory
#
yesterday there was a raid on it
#
the way the imperatives are piled up
#
with the ruling dispensation
#
in unleashing multiple agencies
#
and that is fundamental
#
because when you would have
#
of a particular landscape
#
and when I look at it myself
#
I just feel so incredibly disillusioned
#
it was a house of cards
#
everything's kind of fallen apart
#
to have a bunch of good players
#
are not exactly thriving thriving
#
they are kind of fighting
#
against the odds sometimes
#
you need a mainstream media
#
that does good journalism
#
because at the end of the day
#
those guys have the maximum reach
#
and again like the ownership thing
#
that you were talking about
#
I think for all the flak they get
#
Indian Express still does
#
some amazing journalism
#
I think their front pages
#
and these two organizations
#
don't have another interest
#
Education, Universities
#
in the business of journalism
#
maintain quite a lot of
#
and do the kind of stuff
#
which includes investigative journalism
#
at all in any other paper now
#
the conflicting business interests
#
but what was your question again?
#
Just what you feel about
#
this evolving landscape
#
kind of fill you with despair
#
as it sometimes rush to me
#
because I don't see the incentives
#
for the bigger players changing
#
and even for the smaller players
#
you could get into a trap
#
because if you're in that
#
and again lose track of journalism
#
we're only talking about
#
sort of deli centric media
#
when we're talking about
#
because we're talking about
#
and what we've been able to do
#
as an organization is amazing
#
an organization called Digipub
#
which is a conglomerate of
#
where all digital organizations
#
we recently did an election show
#
where five of us got together
#
News Laundry, News Minute
#
you know we want to give
#
a counter to television news
#
election day results got together
#
you know tried something new out
#
and we want to do that ahead
#
so there's all of that happening
#
but if you look at the numbers
#
majority of the people in India
#
do go to television news
#
the power that is Sudhir Chaudhary
#
collectively also maybe
#
you know all of us together
#
may not have in terms of the reach
#
when she picks up price rise
#
because that's just going to resonate
#
and when an heartthrust happened
#
even though news laundry
#
you know we were forced to go out
#
and really report in great detail
#
as to what had happened
#
why the police hadn't woken up
#
but what really changed the story
#
was when the India Today reporter
#
got those visuals of the pyre
#
you know her body being forcefully
#
burned at the dead of night
#
emotions around that story
#
and it mattered that India Today had it
#
even though she put it up on Twitter first
#
to have a functioning mainstream media
#
I think that's very important
#
most media organizations
#
from May 3rd the violence broke out
#
the viral video from Manipur
#
some of the biggest names in journalism
#
do a single debate on it
#
Anjana I think she did zero debates on it
#
Sudhir maybe did one debate on it
#
this was not a point of conversation
#
the fact that sexual assault
#
had occurred during these violence
#
during this spate of violence
#
was first reported by print
#
digital news organization
#
the viral video comes out
#
and digital news organization
#
against scroll was the first to
#
speak to the women in it
#
and tell the world that
#
this is not an unsubstantiated
#
TV was still on Seema Yadav
#
news laundry broke the story
#
on how the national commission of women
#
had been sitting on this
#
it's another thing that India Today
#
then carried it as their own exclusive
#
but what I'm trying to say is that
#
but do I think the story
#
would have become as big
#
had the big channels not picked it up
#
what if we had a scenario
#
where there was a complete blackout
#
I am not very confident
#
that it would be a big issue
#
and I am not very confident
#
if the opposition would have been able
#
to corner the government
#
in the way that it can today
#
had there not been mainstream media
#
also picking up the issue
#
I feel extremely hopeless
#
when I watch television news
#
which and I'm talking about
#
TV news again and again
#
because that has maximum power
#
those are the guys who really kind of
#
have maximum hold over the people
#
and we know statistically that
#
again that was a CSDS survey
#
that most people traditionally
#
television news for the news
#
so it's very important for them
#
whatever little journalism they do
#
and I think as media critique
#
people who do media critique
#
you need to irrespective of
#
there's this one of course
#
the economic angle to it
#
the conflict of interest angle to it
#
the fact that we need TRP
#
so if someone shows the limit
#
we will keep showing it
#
but somewhere as a democracy
#
as not as active news consumers
#
we need to in whatever way
#
what they're supposed to be doing
#
that's where TV news comes in
#
we have these conversations in office
#
and he's of the opinion
#
that everything should be ruined
#
I'm talking about entertainment
#
it was just dishing out crap
#
because you have a big boss
#
which is the most watched
#
but he's always been of this opinion
#
whatever digital organizations can do
#
should really push aggressively
#
that these guys are leaving out
#
because they are leaving out
#
I feel I'm not that optimistic
#
of a complete decimation
#
of every of mainstream media
#
and I don't know if I want to use
#
because I have a lot of friends working
#
there's a lot of good journalism
#
so I don't want them to thrive
#
I don't have the answer
#
for India at this point
#
because it is important
#
purely because of the reach they have
#
so whether it is by shaming them
#
whether it is by tuning off
#
and I often say this to people
#
sometimes when I'm called to colleges
#
just don't stop being passive consumers
#
it's time we participate with news
#
and what we're getting in the name of news
#
and we can change things
#
to sound very politician-like
#
I don't know if I answered your question
#
on the current media landscape
#
I am very happy with what digital does
#
I just know the whole mainstream has
#
No that's very inspiring
#
I mean it'll sound like a broken record
#
because I just keep thinking
#
love what people like you do
#
you'd mentioned earlier
#
that the beats are dying
#
that's actually part of an illustrative
#
of a larger structural change
#
that really has nothing to do with politics
#
and more to do with technology
#
mainstream media dominates everything
#
don't have the tools of production
#
and there is a consensus
#
and you aren't going down
#
Sushant Singh Rajput, Riya Chakravorty
#
now not only has that completely collapsed
#
do we have a consensus on the truth
#
that there are many different kinds of creators
#
which I think is a fantastic thing
#
because that's why I exist
#
but part of what that also does is
#
it changes everything into narrative battles
#
the way that people consume
#
information is changing
#
like when I think of myself
#
I'm picking up a newspaper
#
and the newspaper is a package
#
that's how I get my news
#
and it has its news pages
#
it has its opinion pages
#
and there the beats fit in
#
so all the beats are also there
#
and it's a full package
#
and an editor's job is really
#
of being a curator of reality for me
#
and incredibly important job
#
today that's completely broken down
#
I stopped getting newspapers at home
#
and I realized it was out of inertia
#
I'd been getting them at all
#
I don't watch any television
#
so where do you get your news?
#
I consume everything in a very piecemeal way
#
or I'll be clicking on links
#
that I find on Twitter and social media
#
and I think a lot of people do that
#
even people who still get physical newspapers
#
are not actually consuming the package anymore
#
and perhaps I went earlier
#
but there was an illusion
#
it's worth putting together
#
but today a lot of things happen
#
in a kind of a piecemeal way
#
you will consume only one kind of thing
#
the way we discover content
#
everything has changed completely
#
what is your sense of this?
#
because I'm imagining that
#
even the way that you consume
#
would have changed a lot from back in the day
#
the imperatives of an editor also change
#
if I'm an editor in that time
#
I am thinking like a curator
#
I'm thinking of the overall package
#
today I'm not really doing that
#
and I don't know what an editor today
#
thinks of in a typical publication
#
that are you just trying to
#
maximize your chance for virality
#
or something going out there
#
what are the imperatives
#
what are the incentives
#
so tell me how you think of all of this
#
both as a consumer and an editor
#
so I think for big newspapers
#
it largely is still the same
#
except there's less importance
#
purely also because access
#
that's what most people say
#
that you can't get the kind of stories
#
beat reporters who are really on it
#
yeah so as a news consumer
#
look I still read the paper
#
purely because I'm also an editor
#
so I need to keep in touch
#
only thing that has happened
#
I think maybe is that I have lost
#
and that is maybe because of my TV viewing
#
you know the amount of television
#
I watch and that's had some impact on me
#
I've become very impatient
#
with reading the full story
#
so I do see myself tuning out
#
after the first two paragraphs
#
but as an editor look for us
#
we have taken this conscious call
#
of the fact that we are not going to be able
#
to compete with the Times of India
#
they have large offices
#
reporters on ground everywhere
#
and there's no point for us to break news
#
so that immediately frees us up
#
from having to react to something
#
we have also on the issue of
#
you know getting the hits
#
we've also realized that okay
#
we simply don't have an ad model
#
so this is something we want to be conscious
#
about whether being read or not
#
whether we are relevant or not
#
because ultimately you're also not
#
writing for your parents to read
#
you want to reach out to people
#
you want people to be consuming
#
you'll be impacted by you
#
so we have those conversations
#
and you know our relevance
#
but we've never had conversations
#
on how much we need to hit
#
how many stories need to viral
#
we're conscious of what's working
#
what's not working for us
#
but because we have chosen this model
#
of solely relying on subscriptions
#
for us it really matters
#
how we can pick up a story
#
and really do it in a way
#
that our subscribers find useful
#
even with our news show
#
which is a weekly podcast
#
it's just a weekly podcast
#
on the news of the week
#
so it's not like a daily
#
by putting out daily opinion
#
on what the India coalition means
#
or what the Prime Minister said
#
outside parliaments or stuff like this
#
so there's no need to immediately react
#
but that's a very specific model of ours
#
and it's immensely freeing
#
for our reporters and for everyone
#
as an editor I think what
#
I genuinely look at with stories
#
one we have an aim of talking about the media
#
so that is an immediately clear goal for us
#
that we need to be doing stories on the media
#
more and more stories on the media
#
not just where they're failing
#
but also really looking at structures
#
how the media shaped your perception
#
so that's an immediate goal for us
#
and when we look at the larger
#
you know you're talking about curation
#
we don't want to enter a space
#
which is already exhausted
#
because we know there's a bunch
#
lots of people talking about a lot of things
#
so even if a money pour is happening
#
we went after two and a half months
#
where we thought okay now we can go
#
and these are a bunch of stories
#
and also sometimes it's also
#
because our subscribers want us to do
#
certain things and they you know
#
they feel like okay this is a report
#
that you should be doing
#
video is a huge push for us
#
sometimes stories are out
#
but you know seeing something visually
#
and this is where I think it's really sad
#
the demise of television news
#
because the way video can have impact on you
#
you know like I said the heartthrob story
#
without those visuals of that fire burning
#
you wouldn't have had the outrage
#
that that you know case had
#
or even sadly in the money pour case
#
and we had a lot of discussions around it
#
do you use a screenshot of the video or not
#
you don't have the consent of the women in it
#
it is traumatic for women to relive that
#
lots of ethical questions around that
#
but had that video not come out
#
so for us also another important thing
#
how interesting can a story be on video
#
and what can it tell you through video
#
because we know about tomato prices right
#
but I don't know if you watched this
#
Lallantop clip of this poor vegetable seller
#
and he's talking to the report
#
this is one video in recent time
#
that everyone was moved by it
#
no you could be the biggest bhakta
#
in that little twitter world
#
that we you know label everyone or whatever
#
everyone was moved by it
#
but just that silence of that man
#
of what he was going through at that point
#
it couldn't have come out
#
you could have written 2000 words on it
#
but it wouldn't have impacted you
#
you know short clip with that silence
#
I've also taken to it pretty recently
#
I often have these conversations
#
on what can be a good visual
#
we know something is happening
#
tell through the story of one person
#
actually had a very interesting
#
I had interviewed her a while ago
#
what makes a video story great
#
it is always that one story
#
you have to tell that one story
#
your audience about something bigger
#
so that really fascinates me
#
about storytelling today
#
I mean that's what I like to watch
#
the flip side of it though
#
is that a lot of reporters
#
can just chase virality
#
to a lot of young reporters also
#
because this Lallantop video
#
you're envious of that one reporter
#
who was able to get that viral bite
#
and often you don't know the damage
#
that you can inflict on someone
#
and I'm very conscious of that
#
because I had spoken to
#
that works with the homeless
#
and there was one story
#
that really went viral during COVID
#
wanted to help this little boy out
#
I think he'd lost his parent
#
and there was a really moving picture
#
and a lot of money came in
#
and that instantly kind of
#
got everyone around the little boy
#
because you're all in desperate
#
suddenly there are lakhs pouring in
#
people want to give him a house
#
people want to give him
#
those relationships that he has
#
in a way that they cannot manage
#
that this kind of journalism
#
can sometimes inflict on your
#
subject that's going viral
#
so I think that also has
#
it's interesting to think of that sometimes
#
sometimes you have the most
#
with the most amazing interview
#
when we were in West Bengal
#
we were talking to this one girl
#
and she just talked about
#
being bullied in school because
#
what you get in your tiffin smells
#
and we were very worried about
#
because she's telling us honestly
#
everything that she feels like
#
and we know that this would be
#
instantly watched and picked up
#
cut, snipped, put out there
#
and I was just worried about
#
what will happen to her
#
the next day when she goes to school
#
and if her classmates who bully her
#
so those are the questions
#
this kind of journalism
#
that I feel is very impactful today
#
sometimes also feel it numbs you
#
because you move from one
#
to the other to the other
#
you really don't understand
#
what the whole thing is all about
#
so those deep dive reports
#
the traditional journalism
#
it's fine you saw a moving story
#
those are important stories to tell
#
No and Barkha's insight is
#
because there's something
#
I mean it's standard writing advice
#
the concrete over the abstract
#
we can talk as much as we want
#
about the migrant crisis
#
of you know during Covid
#
but you showed that one image
#
of the woman pulling a ill husband
#
or whatever that image was
#
completely destroys anyone watching it
#
and has that kind of impact
#
about your having to then make
#
when ethical questions pop up
#
because and that ethical question
#
is of course ever present
#
everyone you're writing about
#
you know they are a means
#
a great story out there
#
and shit could be happening to them
#
and you gave some examples
#
of how you've got to think
#
kind of carefully about that
#
and how does one do that
#
do you go on a case by case
#
do you have some kind of normative line
#
that this is how far we'll go
#
how does one navigate all of that
#
because like I used to find
#
and find sting operations
#
because you're really kind of
#
getting them by deception
#
the end doesn't justify the means
#
if the end is something
#
then you can justify doing that
#
if you're going to for example
#
you know these are the specific rioters
#
and they're admitting to it on camera
#
then yeah in that larger public interest
#
maybe a clear-cut example
#
I'm sure you must be facing
#
you know dilemmas of this sort
#
and I guess a related question
#
you use the term outrage cycle
#
and there is especially on social media
#
for the sake of outrage
#
it's all about you know posturing
#
and how empathetic you are
#
and I feel like it can also become
#
a bit of a trap catering
#
and that can equally then lead
#
into the ethical questions
#
where you could be using people
#
to cater to that outrage cycle
#
and makes you feel relevant and important
#
so how do you think about
#
all of this as an editor?
#
So yeah ethical questions
#
that's how we really kind of
#
in fact that's something that we can
#
because it's fresh in my mind
#
our reporters are in Manipur currently
#
and I think they were both girlfriend
#
when this violence broke out
#
and they still don't know where they are
#
they probably eloped together
#
so they filed an FIR against the boy
#
that he's abducted her and all
#
but then the family sat down together
#
and figured out that okay no
#
and they've gone missing
#
the same case that I was talking about earlier
#
that the police can't investigate
#
they went they spoke to the family
#
and then they went to the police
#
they know the police has confirmed
#
you know to break the story
#
without the parents knowing it
#
I just was very uncomfortable with it
#
and then for a minute I was
#
and we've never faced such a situation
#
again you don't have internet there
#
there's not better connectivity
#
you know so there's a communication lag
#
so I said I think maybe
#
you should call the parents
#
the police has told you that
#
but then the reporter wasn't
#
very comfortable with that
#
because like how can we do this
#
and it's also not your job right
#
between the police and the parents
#
I'm very uncomfortable with doing the story
#
and saying that they're no more
#
when the parents don't know
#
I don't want to break that story
#
because it may seem like something
#
and it presents a lot of
#
it's a very clear picture
#
of what's happening there
#
but I don't want to be the person
#
for the police to tell them
#
we waited for the evening
#
that the police had communicated
#
that they're feared dead
#
though to us they had clearly said that
#
you know all we need is now the army
#
to kind of confirm this
#
and in the middle of this
#
there were some viral videos
#
doing the rounds from Myanmar
#
a very gruesome killing
#
could be the video of their daughter
#
and some media organizations
#
the viral video to be the daughter
#
we completely refrained from
#
at this point in time confirm
#
what the parents are saying
#
what it is we're not putting in it
#
so yeah so that's a case to case basis
#
be breaking the news of
#
from story to story right
#
like what if this was a high profile
#
I don't know politician or an actor
#
and they were feared dead
#
and the police said yes
#
and but the family didn't know
#
but the stakes are so high
#
that maybe you run with that story
#
because everyone's thinking
#
you know what's happened
#
to this high profile person
#
and so you want to break that
#
there's that urge to break it
#
so it changes again I think
#
I'm sure the same circumstances
#
around a different story
#
with something different
#
I remember during covid
#
people we had one video where
#
I forget completely the details
#
and I think the elder parent
#
and they were kind of dragging them
#
from hospital to hospital
#
and our reporters kind of followed
#
and there were these questions
#
they did but in whatever way they could
#
and that was such a circumstance
#
that they couldn't really do much
#
but I think one scene I remember in it
#
that the person who was being carried
#
whatever he was wearing
#
was it a dhoti or something
#
in a very disabled kind of
#
undignified kind of a thing
#
which works as a visual
#
but I was very uncomfortable with it
#
so we decided that it went up
#
but then we kind of put it down
#
put yourself in your position
#
from one hospital to the other
#
and then he was in this condition
#
and if there were cameras
#
how his clothes fell off
#
I would be very uncomfortable
#
sometimes you put yourself
#
but I think the good thing for us
#
is because we are not so consumed
#
doesn't mean we are lazy
#
or that we just sit on a story
#
to kind of just sometimes
#
but we feel it's important
#
for us to be responsible
#
also because we critique the media
#
that when will they do this
#
not that we are above critique
#
we love to be critiqued
#
and we love to be criticized
#
but because we ask those questions
#
we also have to be very careful
#
I think this Manipur case also
#
there was a conversation
#
how do you report on rape
#
because the two communities
#
there's just so much hate
#
that there are also accusations
#
just because you want to be
#
the victim in the story
#
so there would be a lot of people
#
we know of women who've been raped
#
doing this to our people
#
how do you then go about
#
because there's just allegations
#
you know exciting story
#
everyone wants to do this
#
replicate that viral story of
#
gruesomely sexual abuse
#
but you want to get more
#
and more stories on that
#
because that's what's getting
#
the attention right now
#
that we were thinking of
#
what we told our reporters
#
you need a police complaint
#
and also how that played out
#
just enough accusations
#
you owe it to the victim
#
to do justice to their story
#
by doing your job as a journalist
#
so triangulating something
#
getting that complaint out
#
very important you know
#
kind of conversations we have
#
and how do you do a story
#
called Cannibal Holocaust
#
so it's a great horror film
#
I'll link through the show notes
#
and it's like a lost footage film
#
central conceit of the film
#
have found some footage
#
and they're looking through it
#
and the footage basically
#
who are going through jungle
#
where there are cannibals
#
and they want to make a
#
sensational documentary
#
and so they do things like
#
they want to show huts on fire
#
so they put some tribals in huts
#
and they set the huts on fire
#
these people are of course
#
but they've got great footage
#
they start getting hunted down
#
so it's like there are two of them
#
and a third one has been caught
#
or I think testicles chopped off
#
and this guy tells the other guy
#
keep it rolling, keep it rolling
#
as they are picked up and attacked
#
they keep the camera rolling
#
the last guy is filming
#
the second last guy going
#
the cannibal looks at him
#
and you know that he's been seen
#
and they come and they get him
#
and the camera is on the ground
#
Wow I have to watch this
#
Yeah and you just wonder
#
at what point does that
#
that this is not a documentary
#
and this is a real world
#
it's just like a lot of horror cinema
#
it's a great commentary
#
and just kind of sums up
#
the madness of the modern world
#
and I want to ask you about that
#
because you spend a lot of time
#
engrossed in the madness
#
but you watch news television
#
why the stuff that is happening
#
you've referred to something
#
as peeply live multiplied by 10
#
like the SSR conspiracy
#
bad nonsense that was happening
#
right you want to be sensational
#
you know catering to hatred
#
and can rouse people more
#
you know nuance and truth
#
into a whole different area
#
like I couldn't take my eyes
#
where Arnab Goswami is doing
#
I dot N dot D dot I dot A dot whatever
#
and he gets it wrong towards the end
#
he goes I dot D dot I dot N
#
what on earth is going on
#
you show me this shit as parody
#
and you know what I dislike about this
#
have this convenient thing
#
hey people don't have drugs
#
in Taimur or Kim Kardashian
#
salacious sensational stuff
#
so stick to what you were
#
I mean some modicum of what
#
I mean I was just telling
#
a colleague on WhatsApp
#
should go down this rabbit hole of
#
black hole of what's happening
#
the first I heard of her
#
was when I saw your videos
#
and I hadn't heard of her
#
how it has consumed the news world
#
especially Hindi television
#
and they're raking in like
#
and just crazy kind of click baits
#
you've literally had thumbnails
#
where they're saying that
#
from Pakistan who's come
#
because she's fallen in love
#
with this guy while playing PUBG
#
and she's living with him right now
#
now the big question is that
#
and quote unquote illegally
#
so anyway that's the long and short of it
#
I would say it's a new story
#
she's come with four children
#
and she met him while playing PUBG
#
and you have thumbnails right now
#
Seema Haider has told us
#
but that's the thumbnail
#
and when you click on it
#
it's just nothing at all
#
Seema Haider is going back
#
Seema Haider poisoned Sachin
#
I mean forget bad journalism Amit
#
which mainstream news channels
#
Republic, India TV, Zee
#
aaj tak Seema Haider ne pi bidi
#
to Sachin ne ki uski dhunai
#
and can you imagine like
#
you're using words like dhunai
#
can I ask you a question
#
gold with that thumbnail
#
I think that's going to be
#
that's going to be like
#
this is just something beyond
#
I have no words to describe it
#
because what you're putting out
#
it's the clickbait of the worst kind
#
and there's no such thing
#
and too comically and absurdly
#
someone like Anurag Kashyap
#
I think there's so much dark comedy out here
#
but the couple has now put up a
#
board outside their house
#
ki media please respect our privacy
#
the couple is actually fed up now
#
with everything that's happening
#
that they've put up a board
#
saying please respect our privacy
#
it takes them totally powerless
#
I don't think he's working
#
this woman who's come from nowhere
#
ki bhai respect our privacy
#
it's a remarkable love story though
#
PUBG brought them together
#
PUBG brought them together
#
and she's done this crazy journey
#
so that's what I'm saying
#
I get it why you want to do that story
#
it was a newspaper story too
#
she's also quite a fascinating character
#
because she's a very outspoken woman
#
she's really made for tv also
#
because she really speaks
#
she's that television character
#
I think the next thing for her
#
I would not be surprised
#
if the big boss house calls her
#
okay this is a sensational part of it
#
mainstream anchors talking about
#
that Muslims are spitting in your food
#
for what reason one doesn't know
#
so beware of a vegetable vendor
#
which has a Muslim chef
#
because they could be spitting in your food
#
I do think a lot of these anchors
#
some of them may be crafty
#
I think for example Arnab
#
I think he's just a good businessman
#
thug jihad kind of stuff
#
but he also went down that route
#
I don't know what happened to him
#
I think maybe the jail term
#
when heartthroes was happening
#
I remember very clearly
#
this is a love story gone wrong
#
that why aren't you talking about NDTV
#
you know soft towards the UPA
#
they didn't challenge Jishman Mohan
#
they didn't challenge Sonia Gandhi
#
okay the interviews were a bit fluffy
#
fine you want to question them
#
for their elitism whatever
#
but they weren't doing this
#
hyper partisanship anymore
#
I expect TV to be partisan
#
I think that's the natural route
#
that talk TV is going to take
#
when you don't have much
#
and all you're going to do is
#
8 to 10 o'clock debate shows
#
maybe that is just the outcome
#
but this is not even that
#
complete dehumanization
#
and we were talking about
#
you know while we were taking a break
#
or the campaign to put her behind bars
#
she was dubbed an axel on Republic
#
terrorist on TV news channels
#
nailed for her conspiracy or whatever
#
it's that they're actively anti-people
#
they actively whip up frenzy campaigns
#
that land people in jail
#
put their freedom in jeopardy
#
you may disagree with the bill
#
how they protested against it
#
you may be for the bill
#
I'm not even saying that
#
you need to be necessarily with the farmers
#
or that should be the journalistic approach
#
but to say that they are Khalistanis
#
all those who have come here
#
and really funny Shaheen Bagh
#
you know this woman had told me
#
they were running this thing
#
that they were getting free biryani
#
500 rupees and free biryani
#
and the women were livid
#
we don't have any delicacy in biryani
#
we eat biryani every day
#
so we won't come here for biryani
#
this is not some big thing
#
and I could literally see
#
Shaheen Bagh we went first
#
and then we went towards the end
#
in the beginning people were very welcoming
#
they wanted to talk in front of the camera
#
when we went after two weeks
#
because they were very scared
#
of what bite I'm going to take
#
how I will turn it against them
#
am I going to make them
#
seem like they're jihadis
#
will I say they're ISIS
#
where you feel the media
#
anchors do it all night
#
but the kind of difficulty
#
that creates for journalists
#
even from those very channels
#
who may not necessarily
#
want to do all of this shit
#
they want to just go and maybe report
#
if not challenge authority
#
just do a basic factual story
#
their lives are made very difficult now
#
because of what's happening
#
and it's bad I think also
#
from the point of view that
#
now the protesters also then said
#
that you tell our story
#
now even if you want to challenge them
#
that was perceived as negative
#
in farmers protest also
#
so that's a very dangerous place to be in
#
where large number of people want
#
even the media to be divided
#
and it's not their fault
#
because they are at the receiving end
#
that's coming their way
#
but now they want you to choose sides
#
you know now a lot of times
#
when you go on the ground
#
or you are not a godi media
#
then show what we are saying
#
the lines have become so strong
#
and when I think of someone like
#
Arnab it strikes me that
#
though once he was reasonable
#
I used to come on his show
#
I think circa 2008-2009
#
and he seemed normal at that time
#
Siddharth Vardaraj used to come on his show
#
Arthosh used to come on his show
#
I remember I was telling you
#
in journalism school 26-11
#
outrage for the entire nation
#
and he was asking tough questions
#
and he was there in the studio
#
he kind of took on people in this way
#
that you wanted to at that time
#
you wanted those questions
#
and I think what happened was
#
for a particular purpose
#
and then you believe in it
#
you become a performance artist
#
and then that persona becomes you
#
yeah then you can't distinguish
#
and you lose all your humanity
#
which seems to have happened
#
you believe in the myth
#
of your own self basically
#
the voice of the nation
#
and I can get the whole toxicity
#
that is easier for me to understand
#
what I don't understand is
#
like what happened during the SSR thing
#
and the way they went after Rhea
#
like I completely don't get it
#
like one of the most popular
#
conspiracy theories on Twitter
#
which is still my favorite
#
so I'm going to tell listeners about it
#
SSR was apparently into some
#
particular kind of quantum physics
#
where you can split an atom in half
#
he had split himself into half
#
and it was a duplicate SSR who died
#
was in hiding from Adityanath
#
for which he had apparently invented
#
this was one kind of crazy theory
#
a chronicler of madness
#
I'm curious about the why
#
you feel there is a constituency
#
and the anti-Muslim stuff
#
and you go down that road
#
but a lot of this stuff
#
is just surreal and bizarre
#
and I don't even know what's going on
#
so I think I've divided
#
when it comes to anchors
#
I think like there's one bit
#
Indian newsrooms are upper caste
#
finally they're able to express
#
in a way that they couldn't earlier
#
but now it's cool to do it
#
do you get access to the
#
who's who in the Modi cabinet
#
and you also get watched
#
and you become relevant
#
within a television news space
#
so I think there's that
#
I think a lot of people
#
are also just talentless hacks
#
like a Rahul Chavshankar
#
has an entertainment quotient to it
#
so even if he's doing crap
#
because he's just entertaining
#
Rahul Chavshankar doesn't even have that
#
but how do you become relevant
#
or just day in and day out
#
because that's how you become
#
you are not going to rise
#
because of talent anymore
#
television news ecosystem
#
it's how much you can suck up
#
and there's this hilarious
#
kind of a situation now
#
where sometimes privately
#
unni ne kuch zyada hi bol diya
#
hum itna bhi nahi bolna chaate the
#
often BJP spokespersons
#
while the anchor is rambling
#
on and on about how great
#
or defending the Modi Sarkar
#
and the BJP spokespersons are like
#
just on the side clapping
#
I think with Arnab specifically
#
I think he's in that way
#
and it's great fun to watch him
#
I think he's a very progressive
#
it's cathartic to watch
#
taken down the naysayers
#
so he'll really take them down
#
he'll really hammer everyone
#
he's I think one of the first anchors
#
who've been very watchable while
#
milked this whole outrage thing
#
but somewhere down the line
#
I think they realized that
#
this is going to be the new reality
#
and he's a very different kind of a leader
#
has not yet given a press conference
#
now I have never met him
#
but from everything that I've seen
#
of his interviews with people
#
like an equal at an interview
#
was I think with Akshay Kumar
#
this contempt or distance
#
with the rest of the journalists
#
there are four two of you with him
#
I thought you guys must be
#
give me the Ramnath Goenka award
#
no not thick as thieves
#
you can see the contempt
#
no matter how much you say
#
that Modi Ji you keep the batwa or not
#
why don't you get tired
#
I don't think he's moved at all
#
by flattery from journalists
#
because I think they've realized
#
that these guys just don't matter
#
they're just dispensable
#
the last thing we need to think of
#
journalism, media, whatever
#
and within that ecosystem
#
I think Arnab has probably really gone
#
and now I think the problem is
#
that there's no coming back
#
now you can only go down that road
#
because that whole semblance of balance
#
is I mean balance is such a
#
distant word to even use
#
for what's happening here
#
but you've gone so far down
#
genocidal language sometimes of
#
they need to be done away with
#
they need to be locked up
#
that now I think there's no turning back
#
how do they turn back also
#
I'd like to at some point
#
see this government change
#
and whenever that happens
#
to just see what these anchors do
#
I'd be really curious to know
#
or do they continue to go down that
#
because whichever government's
#
I think they're going to be
#
as belligerent with journalists
#
because everyone's realized now
#
in states wherever it's
#
you know whether it's the
#
Ahmadmi party or whether it's
#
the TMC or whether it's
#
they want the media firmly
#
no one wants an independent
#
you want to talk to people
#
and anyone who comes next
#
so I'd really like to see
#
that I'd really like to see
#
because the next government
#
would also want the same
#
if it's not the Modi government
#
I have a story about two people
#
reputed to be on the pay
#
yeah they've been around forever
#
stopped getting the payments
#
was supporting demonetization
#
and this other gentleman
#
apparently the head of the IT cell
#
and the payments flipped
#
no longer on the payroll
#
and she was barking mad anyway
#
and the guy was put back
#
and the two continued arguing
#
but from opposite sides
#
and this was in Twitter
#
and I'll tell you who afterwards
#
and you might be able to
#
I think I can guess the lady
#
and it was business as usual
#
it's like no one even noticed
#
and then somebody told me
#
no no this is what happened
#
the payment system changed
#
or the lucrative aspect of it
#
who are heading prime time
#
but yeah I think in newsrooms
#
also if you want to rise
#
that's what you've got to do now
#
and why is it very depressing
#
television news industry
#
doesn't have a reporter
#
and they had this reporter
#
really question Biren Singh
#
that went on Mirror Now
#
you have this funny thing of Times Now
#
making a passing mention of it
#
proper kind of a show on this
#
what the journey at newslaundry
#
has been through the years
#
sort of financial model
#
tell me a bit about that
#
tell me about the challenges
#
and what are your learnings
#
that I have given newslaundry
#
Modiji has given the country
#
because I've been with them
#
we were like four people
#
sitting on a dining table
#
your listeners would know
#
travel shows and stuff like that
#
or mooching off small screen
#
started off as a reporter
#
and now I'm the managing editor
#
there so it's really been
#
sometimes a bit tired also
#
because just the nature
#
because you're in a small organization
#
you can never just be easy
#
you know you can't just
#
and sometimes it's relaxing
#
to be a cog in the wheel
#
things will just happen anyway
#
and the paper will come out
#
whether you exist or not
#
in smaller organizations
#
I think that puts a lot of stress
#
always have to give your best
#
because otherwise it won't work
#
my first story actually landed us
#
with a 100 crore notice
#
what's been amazing about
#
newslaundry is the space
#
Abhinandan being one of them
#
have been able to create
#
you're really allowed to be free
#
and I know a lot of people
#
that they're left-liberal
#
and this is their agenda
#
you could see the kind of
#
and I think also what's happened
#
that everything has moved so right
#
that we appear quite left
#
anyway that's a different thing
#
literally we were four people
#
I would edit my own story
#
I would put it up on the website
#
I would think of the artwork also
#
I'd coordinate with the
#
so we were a really close
#
team and I think those guys
#
are still great friends
#
at least we were really small
#
one and a half, two years
#
and we really did everything together
#
this amazing organization
#
now we're about 50 people
#
and initially I think we started off
#
even when I came in 2014
#
we were still this organization
#
but a bigger part was critique
#
would have the number of times
#
and say we are not the story
#
and how dare you ask this question
#
about you know the complete
#
to talk about their own work
#
or talk about what they were doing
#
and that's changed a lot
#
where I think reporting on the media
#
most organizations are doing it
#
it's very expected of editors
#
to get calls on what happened
#
why was a certain story pulled down
#
or what's happening with layoffs
#
but when we started off
#
it was incredibly hostile
#
the media industry was incredibly
#
notices of course, defamation
#
who are you to ask us questions
#
who told you to come here
#
that you know of course
#
to now we're a full-fledged team
#
that does quite a bit of reporting
#
I've learnt and unlearned so much
#
so video I think is one thing
#
that I really learnt here
#
importance of communicating
#
sometimes in my friends also
#
who are with the mainstream media
#
they put themselves on a pedestal
#
there is this tendency to talk down
#
or to say we know better
#
I think with news laundry
#
one of the things that I really learnt
#
was the importance of really
#
talking to your audience
#
taking them very seriously
#
communicating with them in a way
#
had I been a traditional journalist
#
so yeah those are the kind of learnings
#
and this is one of the worst things
#
about us as a profession
#
and maybe that's where we are
#
we don't like to think of money
#
and reporters take pride in it
#
journalists take pride in the fact
#
or we are just involved
#
in our own little thing
#
we don't think of business models
#
on which we are surviving
#
or what really drives the industry
#
we really have conversations
#
on the business of media
#
really opened me up to that
#
because even with a small team
#
those conversations were really
#
happening with our newsrooms
#
what is the fundamental problem
#
of relying on advertisement
#
we had completely moved on
#
to subscriptions and back then
#
no one was talking about subscriptions
#
it was I think laughed at
#
that why would on earth people pay
#
and then that to a news organization
#
which is not like a Times of India
#
all your information needs
#
that you may have in a day
#
what's happening in your locality
#
a very interesting learning
#
what makes people pay for news
#
what makes them connect
#
what are their concerns
#
what are the kind of communication
#
we've had to along the way
#
because we took on to subscriptions
#
really do a lot of communication
#
in a classic news laundry way
#
why they need to pay for news
#
and that got us also thinking
#
what happens when you have
#
something as important as news
#
something which at its very core
#
has to be driven by public interest
#
is completely dependent
#
on government advertising
#
if you switch on television news
#
I don't think you'll see
#
Hero Honda or Tata ke ads
#
which used to be all over the news
#
you know with the Aro water
#
it's really famous brand
#
you're asking completely the wrong person
#
or Patanjali for example
#
you'll see Chhattisgarh ad
#
phir Bhupesh Bagel ka ad aega
#
government ads are keeping it going
#
ask any sort of questions
#
when you're completely dependent
#
on them for your paycheck
#
who can think about journalism
#
a little more than just
#
the ideals of it you know
#
really interesting journey
#
where you're trying out a new model
#
you're not going for advertising
#
you're going for subscribers
#
you're trying to figure out
#
how do you maintain the balance
#
in the sense that you can
#
you don't want to go too far
#
towards looking for numbers
#
and looking for all of that
#
because then you can lose
#
the identity of what you're doing
#
you don't want to speak
#
so what are the thoughts
#
figuring that balance out
#
like in a different context
#
what I tell my writing students
#
about their writing is that
#
you should never compromise
#
but where you should think
#
of the reader and cater to her
#
is when you think of the form
#
that she is getting it in
#
but the content is what it is
#
kind of similar for you
#
face disquieting choices
#
looking back do you feel
#
that no this shouldn't have been done
#
how have you navigated that space?
#
So look we're very clear
#
you want to have a large funnel
#
which is your discovery
#
you want to be able to convert
#
towards paying subscribers
#
so all everything that we put out
#
is really geared towards that
#
put it behind the paywall ever
#
that's just going to reach
#
and our idea is to just communicate
#
that something like this exists
#
and then nudge them towards
#
hey have you got our podcast
#
have you got our interview
#
have you read this ground report
#
have you looked at the fact that
#
and got you important stories
#
while the rest of the news
#
has moved on to Seema Hyder
#
do you find value in this journalism
#
because we don't really care
#
pleasing anyone in the government
#
because we are not dependent
#
on advertisements for them
#
we can do this because subscribers
#
you're introducing the notion of
#
what how freeing it can be
#
when someone pays for news
#
so we have made that conscious decision
#
decision that you know shows
#
like nuisance or tippany
#
which is a show by Atul Chaurasia
#
you know that's going to reach out
#
and within that we nudge people into
#
some of our paywall stuff
#
or introduce them to the idea
#
of a media that's daring
#
so that is very clear to us
#
there are sometimes we have confusions on
#
whether you paywall a piece or not
#
that is the only time that we kind of
#
sometimes have arguments on
#
don't paywall this story
#
it should be read by everyone
#
and then you know Raman
#
who's our editor in chief
#
he'll say yes but we do need
#
you know you do need to give
#
our subscribers also something
#
you know they also need to feel
#
at the end of the day that
#
there's a reason why we have a paywall
#
because there's something behind the paywall
#
you can't have nothing behind it
#
so those are the conversations
#
but again it's a case to case thing
#
something of deep public interest
#
for example the story of the two teenagers
#
that I spoke to you about Manipur
#
that's never going to be behind the paywall
#
it just needs to reach people
#
and where Navika Kumar sits
#
how she you know places herself
#
and what does that mean for journalism
#
because we know enough people
#
and it's a certain sort of audience
#
that may be interested in it
#
Navika also will have to subscribe to read it
#
I think that's what we keep joking about
#
I think half subscriptions
#
are from Times Now office
#
half of our you know paywall subscriptions
#
that have come on this piece
#
that what did we write finally
#
when they sued you once
#
for defaming their quote-unquote
#
towering news personalities
#
towering news personalities
#
and that case has gone nowhere
#
the India Today case is still going on
#
where we are awaiting an order on that
#
so yeah those discussions we have on
#
should you be paywalling something or not
#
and what should you be paywalling
#
and it may or may not apply to you
#
and you guys would have much more
#
but one of the interesting things
#
there are people who will pay
#
even if there is nothing behind the paywall
#
that's what I found with people
#
who voluntarily contribute to the show
#
though I don't advertise it at all
#
it's just a link on the website
#
but that actually keeps the show independent
#
and nothing is behind the paywall
#
and I've been very clear
#
that nothing will ever be
#
and similarly even on Substack
#
you have some newsletters
#
that will take their hundred dollars a year
#
but everything will be a public post
#
so and that is really heartening to me
#
because it means that yeah sure
#
people are used to news being free
#
but the people who want deep engagement
#
and value the kind of work
#
they would actually pay regardless
#
this makes me remember this really one
#
you know odd case in Gorakhpur
#
we were there for the UP elections
#
is funded by subscribers
#
so of course there's a regular subscriptions
#
but we routinely put out something
#
which is a reporting project
#
that we ask people to fund
#
so for example Manipur currently
#
is a completely 100% funded by readers
#
three reporters we've been able to send
#
that they're going to be there
#
so similarly our election coverage
#
is completely funded by people
#
so we put up an NL Sena
#
that these are the assembly elections
#
we're going to be traveling here
#
we're going to be telling your stories
#
and we were able to travel
#
all five states in 2022
#
and we were in Gorakhpur
#
and a Muslim boy actually
#
reached out to us and said that
#
I have paid for your NL Sena
#
and want you guys to come over
#
to my house for breakfast
#
so we went and had breakfast
#
and I asked him you know
#
I want to know his feedback
#
listen you've paid for this NL Sena
#
do you like our reporting?
#
I said you don't watch it
#
he said no I don't watch the news
#
so I don't watch the news
#
and at one time I used to watch Ravish Kumar
#
now I don't watch Ravish
#
because I get very depressed
#
what we were talking about
#
one side is right wing hate
#
the other side is just despondency
#
and it's a terrible space
#
it's self-preservation to switch off
#
I just want you guys to do it
#
and you will tell truthfully
#
and something good will come out
#
so you do get a lot of those people
#
who just want to believe
#
and that's also because
#
we've worked on our messaging a lot
#
since we have early movers advantage
#
we've really been able to drill
#
and our messaging is very pure
#
we aren't taking any advertisement
#
so then I think people kind of
#
it's not that we're taking Google ads
#
earning money from YouTube
#
and then asking for money
#
we are genuinely ad free
#
so I think that also connects with people
#
but to me as a journalist
#
I want it to be worth their time
#
you want to give them something
#
maybe because when I subscribe
#
at least one good series out
#
that's not why people pay for
#
and it's a completely different
#
that if people are trusting you
#
investing their money in you
#
I need to give them something
#
that was worth my money
#
even though that may not be
#
their motivation at all
#
I want to ask you now about video
#
because you've referred to
#
you've shared some insights
#
about what you've learned from video
#
how that's been a tremendous area
#
on what you have learned
#
because a it's an incredibly
#
now have to increasingly
#
that also has a visual component
#
it's not just about pen and paper
#
share some of your learnings
#
why a lot of television
#
or the prime time debates
#
some of it is not watchable
#
because it's so affected
#
like when you see a reporter
#
or you can see behind you
#
and they'll keep rattling
#
even though nothing is happening behind
#
and Ravish really broke that
#
with his Ravish's reporting
#
I think he was one of the few
#
journalists who really broke
#
he was okay being silent
#
today does that really well
#
is you should be speaking
#
the way you speak normally
#
and that's the first thing we tell
#
who take to video first
#
because when you're talking
#
suddenly you start going
#
you're going up and down
#
which just doesn't work
#
we should have done the whole conversation
#
so I often tell reporters
#
that do you talk like this
#
when you're talking to your friends
#
so why are you talking like this
#
so I think that's one of the
#
I also learned the hard way
#
and Madhu would call on the phone
#
and say how are you talking
#
do you talk like this in normal life
#
and what is this way of
#
so one of the things that we've
#
and especially for digital
#
very clumsy on television
#
especially with sometimes
#
we laugh about how a nuisance
#
you know my hair is just all
#
it's not nicely kind of
#
and this digital space we have
#
even when you're reporting
#
often tell our reporters
#
that if something is happening
#
that you can see behind me
#
how many times it has come
#
and that person is drowning
#
say something beyond the visual
#
you know and that's a lot
#
of television journalism
#
and here the CM is coming out
#
and she is wearing pink chunni
#
because you're just filling time
#
and I think there's also
#
a deeper psychology to it
#
that journalists always need to
#
sound like they know things
#
and so when we're reporting
#
or we never want to seem confused
#
or we never want to question
#
sometimes about what's happening
#
because we always want to seem
#
on something that's happening
#
you know what to think about it
#
and that kind of journalism
#
I think the time for that journalism
#
people don't want to watch that
#
if something is happening
#
rather than putting out
#
and repeating again and again
#
on what you think is happening
#
you can just stand there
#
and just look at what's happening
#
this is what seems to be happening
#
but I'm not really sure
#
and I think one of the reasons
#
why a lot of television news anchors
#
when they come onto digital
#
that television language
#
of speaking to an audience on video
#
and they aren't very watchable
#
I'll tell you everything
#
for visual storytelling
#
for me two rules is like
#
if it's happening in front of you
#
and it's hard to not do it
#
also by watching so much of it
#
that's what we end up doing
#
in the sense that you are also noting
#
in whatever way you can
#
doesn't mean that you start crying
#
is happening behind you
#
don't keep droning on something
#
when you don't know what's happening
#
you know it's okay to pause
#
there's a great observation
#
the different visual forms
#
and how they're different
#
and let's say you go to a movie theater
#
there's a certain distance
#
between you and the screen
#
and there can be a similar distance
#
between the camera and the actor
#
so you can have your outdoor chase scenes
#
your westerns and all of that
#
if you're watching a television
#
it's like a couple of meters away from you
#
and similarly there can be
#
between the camera and the actor
#
so you have friends and Seinfeld
#
or people in a living room
#
and when you have YouTube
#
you know the viewer is really watching it
#
from this close distance
#
and similarly for a lot of
#
made for YouTube content
#
between the camera and the anchor
#
and therefore it leads to
#
and it demands that kind of intimacy
#
if you try to do projection
#
the way you would on television
#
or even you know on a bigger screen
#
it simply will not work
#
that's also the difference
#
between podcasting and radio
#
you know radio is really broadcasting
#
and it's like the metaphor I would use
#
is you're sitting in a car
#
and five people are listening to the radio
#
podcasting is a voice in your head
#
it's incredibly intimate
#
so this authenticity is like
#
such a huge important point for me
#
yeah but again how do you do it
#
without giving into the drama
#
so I think because a lot of TV anchors
#
which I find cringe to watch
#
where a gruesome murder has happened
#
and then sit with the family
#
and start crying there yourself
#
and then they'll put out that
#
which I think is cringe
#
so yeah there's a fine balance
#
so my penultimate question for this day
#
you've given so much of your time for this
#
you have more important things to do
#
and better content to create
#
but my penultimate question
#
where do you think journalism is going
#
are the best and worst case scenarios
#
for journalism to evolve in India
#
because so much has happened in the last
#
since you entered journalism
#
and so much has happened since then
#
where do you see it going
#
you know earlier in the break
#
Aakar Patel, Tista Sattelvad
#
who was incredibly optimistic
#
that they have undergone
#
and I think of myself as
#
as having pessimism of the intellect
#
but optimism of the will
#
like I do think the world is going to hell
#
how do you think about this
#
and when you look ahead
#
you know give me a best case
#
and a worst case scenario
#
for journalism in India
#
you're screaming on times now
#
are you ever gonna do it?
#
and there's something I've been thinking
#
and thinking of journalism
#
not just what news don't do does
#
but everything that is journalism
#
I really fear our irrelevance
#
because of our unwillingness to adapt
#
to the initial conversation
#
we have ceded space as journalists
#
and to the point that now
#
there's a lot of confusion around
#
even what really journalism is
#
and I'll give you a simple example
#
Hindenburg report thing was happening
#
and even as a journalist
#
you look to Economic Times
#
you look to Business Standard
#
there wasn't really a breakdown
#
on what that report was
#
and financial influencers
#
like this guy called Akshay Chavastav
#
he did a rather good video
#
why didn't someone in the Mint
#
or Business Standard newsroom
#
because I trust you guys
#
I know that there's some sort of
#
editorial filters there
#
I know you have the expertise
#
what's happening around them
#
in a language that they understand
#
and maybe that is why also
#
we at news don't really try
#
because I'm really scared of
#
where people simply don't
#
see why journalism is important
#
because it's just had no impact on them
#
or that it's not answering
#
the questions that they have
#
so that's my worst case scenario
#
journalists are irrelevant
#
and content that's coming to you
#
and it's only going to increase
#
the nature of democracy
#
you had the Siddique Kappan
#
just because he was on his way
#
now whatever you may think
#
he was just on his way to
#
he's not even a dissident
#
you know forget going after
#
someone who's a dissident
#
this is just a regular guy
#
it can only get more naked ahead
#
because once they've figured
#
and that they can control
#
the thing with the bully
#
and the thing with someone who
#
especially what this government
#
is that you don't want it
#
even a little bit of news
#
I'm deeply disappointed
#
you know when this blew up
#
BJP ko 2-3 usne questions puch diye
#
which has got nothing to do
#
with these big questions
#
what will journalism look like
#
I think all journalists
#
what have you really attained
#
a lot of people around you
#
that CSDS report is fantastic
#
most of them want to leave
#
I think journalism is also
#
one of the few professions where
#
if you're lucky there is
#
where you did the best story
#
yeah worry about my own self
#
I hope I don't get tired
#
then I hope I'm not boring
#
I think I also worry about
#
remotely close to that yet
#
I don't want to be a drone
#
that I did this and that
#
I really think about that now
#
that how much will you do
#
you've been saying it for 5 years
#
it's happening in prime time
#
now let's give something else
#
so we also think now that
#
talk about something else also
#
so that was also something
#
I'm very conscious about
#
about the good sense in people
#
I don't think I should be
#
and there's a lot of evidence against it
#
and when they see something
#
when we're on social media
#
how they'd agree with you
#
of communicating in a way
#
you're in the profession
#
TKI we don't want to get
#
into that generation now
#
they've lived their life
#
they want to be on WhatsApp
#
you know this whole outrage
#
lots of questions around it
#
yeah I'm not going to argue
#
I'm going to concentrate
#
they're also very discerning
#
recently at one of our events
#
college girl walked up to me
#
and how a lot of the tribals
#
because a lot of land had gone
#
there was a lot of anger
#
around the statue of unity
#
and I was waiting for you
#
that now this will become a bias
#
now this will become a bias
#
but you were very balanced
#
I thought it was very funny
#
while watching my report
#
waiting for me to slip up
#
she wasn't going on a rant
#
you know the whole project
#
she was kind of giving us
#
that's not a very bad sign
#
that they are very skeptical
#
of what they're watching
#
tell you how to think about something
#
they want to make their own choices
#
news consumers give me hope
#
so the hope is young people
#
and we have plenty of them
#
so there is plenty of hope
#
for me and my listeners
#
that you absolutely love
#
that means the world to you
#
currently I'm reading or
#
when you were 10 years old
#
okay so my reading journey
#
has been really haphazard
#
started off with the classic
#
Enid Bright and Heidi beauty
#
Little Women and all that
#
and till a point where I
#
maybe my 9th to my college
#
I got addicted to reading plays
#
that I became very impatient
#
I just didn't have the time
#
of the beautiful sunset
#
or five pages of you know
#
so I would highly recommend
#
this play by Jean Paul Sartre
#
I've probably read only a few plays
#
the few plays that they've written
#
because I was thoroughly
#
he just made me laugh a lot
#
I think I loved reading
#
at a certain circumstance
#
I read a lot of Indian plays also
#
I think Girish Karnad is fabulous
#
Vijay Tendulkar is fabulous
#
his plays are so deeply rooted
#
in Indian tradition, mythology
#
but yet it doesn't sound clunky
#
because it's in English
#
and that's just marvelous
#
because it could easily sound
#
I think all of Girish Karnad's plays
#
of late I was talking about
#
Abhishek Chaudhary's biography
#
I think it really makes you think about
#
in a very different way
#
and it really makes you think of it beyond
#
just labeling it as something
#
and really looks at the roots
#
of where it's coming from
#
so recently I really liked that
#
back to my journey of reading
#
I think all of Aarka Narayan I loved
#
I think Guide is one of my
#
one of my favorite books
#
the movie's music was good
#
I think he's really good
#
and we were talking about
#
there's a fabulous book by Ira Pandey
#
as you know we were talking about
#
I didn't have the sense of being rooted
#
but I think there is that sense
#
but I don't know the language
#
I don't know like real cultural ties
#
kind of got me close to my own culture
#
one of the most amazing books
#
the patience to go through fiction
#
Aatish Tasi is the way things were
#
one of the recent books
#
that was a really amazing book
#
and yeah that's all I can think of
#
anyone who wants to understand current
#
the madness of what's happening right now
#
I do think Abhishek's book is really good
#
and of course classic V.S. Naipaul
#
he was talking about a lot of things back then
#
that we are just opening our eyes to now
#
and he was raising a lot of questions
#
and of course it's very well written
#
I don't know are you a fan
#
a lot of people also look down at Naipaul
#
as just a very laborious writer
#
and certainly of his pro style
#
I mean he was such an elegant stylist
#
and he was able to really
#
some of the things that we talk about
#
you know like Ram Mandir
#
I think I recently went back to it
#
you know this is talking about something
#
that we're all grappling with today
#
there's really something to be able to see it
#
yeah that's my short suggestion
#
Thank you so much for your time today
#
this was such a great conversation
#
more power to you and final thing
#
final thing if listeners want to
#
newslaundry.com slash subscription
#
like I said is completely ad free
#
we're able to do everything
#
thanks to you know our subscribers
#
subscribe and also check out some of our stuff
#
maybe you can start with
#
if you're not a subscriber already
#
you can listen to some of our smaller podcasts
#
that you'll find on our YouTube
#
then maybe you can subscribe to NL Hafta
#
which is behind the paywall
#
and you may find it worth your time
#
take a quicker approach
#
just subscribe to begin with
#
it is completely worth it
#
thank you so much for your time
#
and thank you for everything you do
#
thank you Amit that was great
#
if you enjoyed listening to this episode
#
check out the show notes
#
that will support good journalism
#
you can follow Manisha on Twitter
#
I'll also link it from the show notes
#
why you do this Manisha
#
and you can follow me on Twitter
#
at Amit Verma A M I T V A R M A
#
you can browse past episodes
#
of the scene and the unseen
#
at scene unseen dot i n
#
thank you for listening
#
did you enjoy this episode
#
of the scene and the unseen
#
if so would you like to support
#
the production of the show
#
you can go over to scene unseen dot i n
#
and contribute any amount you like
#
to keep this podcast alive
