Ep 346： The Seema Goswami Files

But with my mother, our relationship changed as she grew older because she started off as being this very strong and, you know, almost obstreperous person.

2758

And by the end, she was like a very different person.

2761

She was like, you know, she would depend on you for the smallest little thing.

2766

And you could tell that, you know, it was not something she was comfortable with because she had grown up being this very independent person who did her own thing.

2774

And it takes and in her last years, she had to move in with my sister and live with her because she couldn't really live on her own.

2782

And I think it was very tough on her, you know, giving up your house, giving up your environment, moving in.

2791

It changes your life in a very fundamental way.

2794

And I think it's very hard to make your peace with.

2797

So I think that's tough.

2799

And I often wonder, like, you know, with as you grow older, what your old age will hold for you.

2805

It's a bit scary.

2807

There's a beautiful poem by A.K. Ramanujan called Self-Portrait.

2810

I'll just read it out as I get to my next question.

2813

Self-Portrait by A.K. Ramanujan.

2815

I resemble everyone but myself.

2817

And sometimes see in shop windows, despite the well-known laws of optics, the portrait of a stranger, date unknown, often signed in a corner by my father.

2826

And it's a beautiful poem.

2827

And how much did knowing your mother better help you also understand yourself?

2836

Help me understand myself.

2838

To help you know yourself.

2839

That's a tough one. I don't know if I understand myself.

2843

I don't know.

2844

I think it helped me understand my mother better.

2847

Because I think, you know, anybody who loses their mother at such a small age is always damaged as a consequence because you grow up without a maternal influence.

2861

And I think that changes you in a very, very fundamental way.

2865

So when she became a mother herself, her mothering had no real context because she had no idea, you know, what to do.

2875

And that, I think, affected her like she was a huge disciplinarian because her father used to be a huge disciplinarian.

2883

So she took her cue from him.

2885

So there wasn't that softening influence of a mother that, you know, in the stereotypical way what we say.

2892

So she was like, in our family, my mother was always the disciplinarian.

2895

My father was always like, you know, it's OK, let it be or whatever.

2899

But she was the one who was like the tough one or whatever.

2903

And in a sense, I think it was her childhood that made her.

2907

And in turn, it made us, you know, because the way she brought us up was influenced by the way that she was not brought up.

2917

So it was a tough thing.

2919

But I don't know if I could understand myself better as a consequence, but I certainly understood where she was coming from.

2926

Like when I was growing up, I would kind of constantly rebel against the disciplinarian aspects of her personality.

2933

Like, for instance, when we were kids, we were never allowed sleepovers.

2936

We were not allowed to sleep over at anybody's house ever.

2940

And it used to be a huge issue for me that, you know, all my friends can do it.

2944

Why can't I do it or whatever?

2946

But I think because she was brought up by this very strict father who had to protect his daughters in a household where there were no ladies or whatever,

2955

she kind of carried that over to her own parenting.

2958

So looking back, I can now understand where she was coming from.

2963

But at that point, there used to be a lot of anger and resentment that why can't I do the things that, you know, my friends are doing or whatever.

2971

But certainly looking back, I feel I understand her better now.

2975

But I don't think I understand myself any better as a consequence.

2979

That will take some time.

2981

It's a kind of lifelong process.

2983

You mentioned you were crazy about literature.

2985

You like to read, you would read six books a week and you would just go through them.

2989

Tell me about the kind of things you read and what stayed with you?

2992

What made an impression?

2993

Oh, my gosh, you know, like I told you, like within the house, I was completely unsupervised.

3000

I wasn't allowed to go out anywhere and I had to be back at a certain time and all that nonsense.

3004

But within the house, there was no supervision.

3007

And my grandfather, my father, my brother, my sister, they were all big readers.

3011

So we had a lot of books at home, which was unusual in that period.

3017

And my grandfather used to be a huge history buff.

3020

So he used to have books on world wars and, you know, the British royal family and, you know, European royalty and stuff like that.

3029

And somehow nobody ever said that I should not read anything like I could read whatever I wanted to read.

3036

And I still remember this with this huge bound volume of George Bernard Shaw's collected plays.

3042

And I remember I must have been about 10 or 11 when I started reading them.

3046

And I'm not even sure that I understood what they were or whatever, but I read all of them, you know,

3052

because nobody ever told me that, you know, these are adult books and you can't do this and you can't do that.

3058

As a consequence, I developed a pretty eclectic reading habit.

3062

Like I would read his history books.

3064

I would read these plays.

3066

Then my sister was a big fan of George It Is, so I would pick up her George It Is and read them.

3072

So I don't have memories of any one particular thing that I liked.

3077

Like all children, I loved Enid Blyton because that was the one thing that we all read, the Mallory Tarr series.

3084

I used to fantasize about being allowed to go and live in a hostel and where I would have midnight feasts.

3089

And of course, my mother would not send me, which was a big bone of contention that I couldn't go and live in a hostel.

3096

And so those were there and there were the Nancy Drew books.

3100

Then there used to be a lot of books.

3102

The school library was one resource that I used.

3105

And then I said I used to go out and pick up books from these lending libraries.

3109

I don't know if they still exist in Calcutta or whether they've gone.

3114

And then there used to be this Oxford library on Park Street where you could borrow books as well.

3119

So I had a very eclectic reading habits, which continue to this day.

3124

Though now I don't read that much nonfiction, I read much more fiction than nonfiction than I used to.

3131

But I'm very happy reading a trashy potboiler kind of thing.

3138

I used to read Harold Robbins that my brother had and James Hadley Chase.

Do you remember him?

Of course.

Yes.

And Alistair McLean that used to be a big name in those days.

3150

The Guns of Navarone and all of that are just made into a movie as well.

3155

Those books seem to have disappeared, haven't they?

3157

Yeah, I kind of, you know, one lament I have is that today everything is so easily available to us that people can actually curate their reading.

3166

And unfortunately, people often do it according to ideas of how they want to project themselves or what they think is cool to read.

3174

And I'm like, we were indiscriminate readers because we didn't have a choice.

3178

We read whatever we could get our hands on.

3180

In fact, I remember once I was, I'm a big fan of Georgette.

3183

I think she's an amazing writer and her plots are like really great.

3189

And I remember once I was working for Sunday magazine and I was at the airport.

3194

And I was reading a Georgette that I had picked up from one of these airport stalls, probably re-reading it because I'd read them all when I was a child.

3201

And a week later, a car wandered into the airport.

3204

He looked at me and said, what are you reading?

3206

And I said, it's a Georgette.

3207

I said, what nonsense are you reading?

3210

This is all trash and all that.

3211

I'm Mills and Boons type and all.

3213

So I was really annoyed.

3214

I said, you know, have you ever read a Georgette?

3216

Have you any idea what she's like and stuff like that?

3219

So, of course, he scoffed at me and wandered off and I was really annoyed.

3222

Then after a month, he called me up and he said, you know, I think you were right about Georgette because Amitabh Ghosh told me she's one of the best writers.

3233

So I said, Amitabh Ghosh's opinion counts, but not mine.

3238

But, you know, because of that, I'm a pretty eclectic reader.

3243

I read about just about anything, though my big craze is still spy novels.

3250

I grew up reading them, so they're still like one of my favorite genres to read.

3255

Yeah. And, you know, one of my good friends, Ajay Shah, keeps talking about the importance of biodiversity in our diet.

3260

So every time he makes tea, he'll put different herbs into it.

3263

And I think that there's the same value in biodiversity in your reading, as it were.

3270

Like, you know, I teach a writing course and sometimes students will ask me that, you know, what should I read?

3275

Recommend some writers and all of that.

3276

And I'm like, anything you enjoy reading is great.

3279

There should be no hierarchy of books that something has won the book prize or something is in the canon and something is airport bestseller.

3286

You know, anything that gives you joy that you enjoy reading is good writing.

3290

It is doing something right. You know, you will internalize it and you should read it.

3294

In fact, I have this thing which I'm now trying to get over that once I started a book, I had to finish it.

3301

You know, I couldn't give it up.

3302

No matter how bad it was or how bored I was, I would still read three, four pages at night trying to finish it.

3308

But now I've decided that life is too short.

3310

I mean, there's so many other books to be read.

3312

So if something doesn't appeal to me, I kind of give it up now.

3316

But there was a time when I never used to do that and I used to kind of religiously read through.

3320

Because there are a lot of these very popular and well-known writers that I just don't get.

3326

You know, like they just don't appeal to me.

3328

So I don't see any reason why I have to read them just to prove that, you know, I've read this particular book or whatever.

3336

Like God of Small Things.

3338

I couldn't read it.

3339

I tried three times and I gave it up.

3341

And then people would ask me, how can you not like it?

3344

You know, it's Arundhati.

3347

But I just...

3348

My taste also go much more towards minimal, elegant prose like Vikram Seth and so on.

3354

Rather than someone more maximalist, which is not a value, objective value judgement.

3359

It's just our taste. This is how we are.

3361

I get a bit tired of all these lyrical, the purple sky and the boob.

3366

The other thing that I kind of keep telling my writing students is that,

3369

and contrary to what you do in this case, is that if you don't like something, stop reading it immediately.

3374

You know, it's a sunk cost fallacy.

3376

You know, you should only read something if it brings you value in two ways.

3380

One is you're enjoying it.

3382

And the other is that you want to learn something and even if it's a little difficult, you want to learn it.

3386

But otherwise, never force yourself through anything because life is so short.

3390

In fact, at the moment I'm reading this really, really interesting series.

3395

It's quite a quirky series actually, is by this writer called S.J. Bennett.

3399

In which she writes these books which is set in the palace.

3403

Queen Elizabeth is actually the secret detective who's solving all these crimes.

3408

And it's so quirky and it's so fun because, you know, she puts in a little bit about palace life

3414

and how, you know, the Queen's world works and whatever.

3418

And like, you know, some hand washes up on the beach at Sandringham

3422

and who's the man to whom the hand belongs to.

3424

And the Queen is trying to find out from behind the scenes.

3427

And one of her ADCs is like her front who does all her work for her

3431

because obviously the Queen can't go and investigate.

3434

But I just found this such fun because the concept is so quirky that I was just intrigued by it.

3440

It's not a very high-faluting book or whatever.

3443

It's good, easy reading.

3444

But I'm really enjoying it at the moment.

3447

It's good fun.

3448

I love the thought.

3449

And our producer for this session, Abhishek, who plays guitar, and Advaita,

3453

he was lamenting yesterday that there aren't enough chronicles set in the princely states of India.

3458

Yeah.

3459

I mean, of course, Manu Pillai has written about Travancore and all of that,

3461

but there aren't enough.

3462

And I was just thinking, what about a detective series set in one of those princely courts?

3466

It would be so great.

3468

You know, funny you should say that because I remember Chikki Sarkar many years ago said,

3472

would you like to do this kind of book and all?

3474

And unfortunately, I don't have that historical background.

3477

You need somebody who understands that period to do it.

3481

But it will be a great thing for somebody to do.

3483

I think Madhulika Liddle has also said...

3485

Has she done? I've not read her.

3486

I think in the Mughal courts, there's a series like that.

3488

Oh, I haven't read that.

3489

Not mistaken.

3490

You mentioned Mallory Towers earlier and sort of Daydreams of boarding school.

3494

And obviously, you know, anyone who read Enid Blyton and all that would kind of feel that attraction.

3499

And I love Mallory Towers as well.

3500

And I remember when I was in bishop school in Pune in the 1980s,

3505

at one point when my father was transferred to Pune,

3508

I insisted that I wanted to be, you know, not a day scholar, but a hostelite.

3512

And he was like, what are you talking about?

3514

God I'm there, why are you kidding me?

3516

Etc, etc. So that never happened.

3518

But for a very brief while, I had that little fantasy purely because of the books you read.

3524

But I want to sort of ask you, what did you daydream about?

3528

Were you a daydreamer?

3529

Oh, yes, my gosh.

3530

As a child, I used to create such elaborate fantasies in my head.

3535

Oh, my God.

3536

I was like, you know, when you're there's such a big gap between your siblings and yourself,

3540

you're effectively brought up as an only child because they are like grown up by the time or whatever.

3545

And so I had this very rich interior life and I used to have all these fantasies.

3550

And one, I used to be this the captain of the Indian female cricket team.

3555

And we used to go off on all these little tours.

3558

And in my mind, I would be replaying every ball in my head and what stroke I would be playing and all of that.

3566

So I had a lot of these, you know, the fantastical things in my head because we had so much free time

3572

and nothing to do with it apart from read.

3574

And when you read, it kind of unlocks your imagination to some extent.

3579

And so, yeah, I had a huge daydream.

3583

But I never really daydreamed of being a real thing.

3588

Like, it's not like in real life, I was actually a cricketer.

3590

It was like a complete fantasy.

3593

It wasn't like I was fantasizing about something that could actually come to fruition.

3598

It wasn't like that at all.

3600

And were there romantic daydreams?

3603

Like, I'm wondering what were the notions of romance in that time?

3605

Because, you know, at one level, if you're not a reader, you just get Bollywood

3611

and you get either really straight list conventional notions of romance

3616

or they could even be a little toxic because Bollywood could sometimes be that way.

3619

But if you read, you know, there could be more and more nuance out there.

3623

So what was it like growing up as a young girl?

3625

I think our idea of romance came from Mills and Boon's novels, you know.

3628

At that age, when you're like 15, 16, they used to be, they were like contraband almost,

3633

you know, because they used to have these very lurid covers of these very pretty looking women

3638

fainting in the arms of this dark, handsome man.

3642

And I think either we were not allowed to read them or there was something.

3646

But we used to secretly exchange whatever books we had with each other.

3651

So I think we had this very stereotypical idea of romance, that this very strong,

3656

tall, dark man would come into our lives, who would always be a little older than you,

3660

not, you know, somebody of your same age group and sweep you off your feet and go off.

3666

But in real life, we didn't know very many men because I went to a convent school

3671

and then I went to Loretto College, so there weren't that many men around.

3675

And even when we went to these, you know, college festivals or whatever,

3680

we were always, we always steered a little clear of this whole Sensevier's lot,

3685

because their idea of trying to make friends with you was trying to tease you,

3690

was trying to, you know, I mean, it was a very strange dynamic, you know,

3695

nobody would come up and say, hi, hello, but they would catcall you from a distance,

3700

you know, how it is when you're like 17 or 18.

3703

So it's not like we had very many romances when we were in college.

3708

In fact, of all my friends in college, only one had a boyfriend.

3712

And even that was a secret boyfriend, like her parents didn't know about it or anything.

3717

And it was not until, until what, we were 24 or 25 that people started getting married.

3726

And astonishingly, a lot of them arranged marriages.

3731

Even in, you know, in the 90s or 80s or whatever,

3736

only one friend of mine actually had a love marriage, the one who had a boyfriend in college.

3741

And the other one, you know, we didn't call them arranged marriages,

3747

because, you know, the boy would be introduced to you by your parents or whatever,

3751

and then you would go out with him a couple of times.

3753

So you felt that, you know, you were like dating and then you would get married.

3758

But effectively, they were arranged marriages, you know, whether you call them or not.

3763

So I think it was a very different period.

3766

They weren't, or maybe it was different in presidency.

3769

Maybe people had lots of boyfriends and girlfriends.

3772

But growing up in the ghetto, there were very few people who,

3776

there was one girl in our class who actually got married while he was still in college.

3779

And that was also an arranged marriage.

3781

So it was a, it was a very kind of a conservative, traditionalist kind of an environment that I grew up in.

3789

And earlier, you mentioned that your dad was perfectly cool with, you know, your doing literature.

3794

And I'm just thinking that had you been a boy, it may not have been that way,

3797

because expectations are often kind of different.

3799

Well, I don't think we had very many expectations of my brother either.

3803

He did accountancy.

3805

But I think, you know, to be honest, I don't really know,

3809

because I was very young when he made that decision, because he's much older than me.

3813

But I don't really think there was much pressure on him, him either.

3817

I don't think, you know, my parents were not really that motivated by money.

3820

And, you know, the whole commercial aspect so much, so I think they were okay with it.

3828

And what was your sort of sense of self, as it were, like, what did you want to be?

3832

How did you see yourself at that time?

3834

You know, it's very strange you ask that, because I really had no clue when I was studying in college what I wanted to do.

3842

For me, it was just enough to be in college and studying literature, which I really loved.

3847

And I used to, you know, spend all my time in the library.

3850

I was one of those really nerdy kids who would probably annoy me now if I actually met her.

3857

But I used to be really nerdy.

3858

And I remember in my library, there used to be this one particular row of tables which had these big picture windows.

3865

And my biggest memory of college is sitting in a picture window and doing my research and looking up literary criticism and all of that.

3873

And I never ever thought of what I was going to do next.

3877

And then suddenly I was in my third year of college and I had no idea what I wanted to do.

3881

The only thing I knew is I didn't want to be a teacher, because that was one thing that did not appeal to me at all.

3888

And I knew that I didn't want to do my MA, that I was happy because once I started studying literature,

3895

I realized that in a way it was a mistake, because once you start studying a subject,

3902

it loses a little bit of its charm because it becomes work.

3906

And I often felt that maybe I should have studied history and kept literature as something that I enjoyed.

3913

And I didn't want to do my MA in literature or anything, so that I had to decide what I wanted to do.

3920

And the only thing I could think of was sitting for the civil services exam.

3925

So without any thought or whatever, after I finished my third year of college, I came to Delhi, live with my uncle who lives in Delhi.

3934

And so I sat for my prelims and I never thought very much about it and I did them and went back to Calcutta.

3942

And while after my prelims are done and I had a little bit of time and I just saw this ad in the newspaper,

3949

we used to get the statesman or was it The Telegraph in those days, may have been The Telegraph, about Sunday magazine looking for interns.

3958

And I wasn't doing anything.

3960

Which year was this?

3961

This was 1987.

3963

And so I sent off an application saying that, you know, OK, until my results come out, let me just do this.

3971

So I sent off an application and they asked me to come and then I had to give a written test.

3975

And then I was invited back for an interview by Sunday.

3979

And so the two people interviewing me was Avik Sarkar and there was another gentleman who was the editor of Sunday.

3989

And so I did the interview and much to my surprise, I got the job.

3993

So there were two of us who were hired from this huge intake.

3997

And so I was in two minds, I should take it up or should I not take it up.

4001

And I said, anyway, it doesn't matter.

4002

Like I have till the mains, I can study on the alongside.

4005

And I took up this job and I joined Sunday and I used to be like the lowest of the low, you know,

4011

the kind of person who would be sent to the library to find pictures and, you know,

4015

PTS pull layout, you know, that kind of little things.

4019

Then slowly, slowly after about a week or so, they started giving me a little copy to edit and things like that.

4025

And then after some time, there was some deluxe that had come and it said something,

4032

you know, this story has to be done this.

4034

And it was signed Veer.

4036

And I turned to Aditi, who was like the person who was mentoring me.

4039

And I said, who is this Veer?

4040

She said, you don't know who Veer is, that's the editor.

4042

It's Veer Sanghvi, didn't he interview you?

4045

So I said, oh shit, I thought that was Shubhavrata Bhattacharya.

4050

So all through my interview, I was interviewed by Veer in a week,

4054

but I thought he was Shubhavrata Bhattacharya.

4056

So I'm very lucky I didn't call him Mr. Bhattacharya.

4059

And it took me like two weeks into Sunday to figure out who he was,

4062

which shows you how unprepared I was for the world of journalism or whatever.

4066

Had you called him Mr. Bhattacharya, would you have gotten the job?

4069

Probably not.

4070

Then the whole future is different, right?

4072

Probably not.

4074

So anyway, and I started working.

4076

And then once you start editing, then it was a small kind of office

4082

and there were very few of us.

4084

So you ended up getting assignments that go and do this little story,

4087

like some quiz is happening somewhere or, you know,

4089

Chhota Mhota stories.

4091

And after I started doing that, I suddenly got into the whole thing

4096

about journalism and I started enjoying myself.

4098

I started enjoying writing and started enjoying rewriting also,

4102

which is quite something because it was not something that most people like.

4106

And then anyway, I got through my prelims and then I came back and I did my mains

4111

and I got through my mains and then I had to make a decision

4116

as to what I want to do because so I said, OK, now let me see.

4120

Now that I've got through, let me see.

4122

I'll go back for the interview.

4124

So I went back for the interview and I got through that as well.

4129

So then I had to decide now, what do I do?

4131

You got through the...

4133

I got through the civil service.

4134

What was your name?

4135

Gosh, I don't remember, but I don't remember, really.

4139

It was like a lifetime ago.

4142

So then I had to decide what I wanted to do.

4144

So then I had a lot of, you know,

4147

heart to hearts with my friends and my parents and everybody.

4150

And there were all these pros and cons, you know,

4152

you know how people are government job here.

4154

You should take it to your life is made.

4157

How can you give it up for being like one lowly reporter

4160

or a lowly sub editor on Sunday?

4163

But I don't know what prompted me, but I decided not to take it up

4167

and I decided to stay on in Sunday.

4170

Then after a while, when I was working in Sunday,

4172

I got I got a letter from the cabinet secretariat saying

4176

that you've seen that you passed the civil services

4178

and we'd like to offer you a job.

4181

And will you come for an interview to Delhi?

4184

And I was so naive, I didn't even know what the cabinet secretariat was

4188

or that it stood for raw or whatever.

4189

So I showed it to various people in the office and they said,

4193

you know, that's raw.

4194

So you should definitely go for the interview,

4195

at least see what it's about.

4197

You know, it's an experience.

4198

So I came back to Delhi for that and I gave the raw interview

4203

and it was the most surreal experience of my life.

4207

It was like this whole phalanx of men sitting like, you know,

4212

silhouetted against a window like you see in all the John

4214

McCarran novels, asking all kinds of strange questions.

4218

And most of them had to do with politics.

4221

You know, what do you think of the anti-defamation law

4223

and the Punjab agitation and the Sri Lanka thing?

4226

You know, all the hot topics of that day.

4229

And then I got through that.

4230

And then they called me for a medical exam, at which point

4233

I finally pulled the plug and I said, I'm not joining raw.

4236

And I decided to stay on with Sunday.

4238

But I often wonder that if I had joined raw and become a spy,

4242

how wonderful it would be.

4244

You could write a book about it.

4245

I am writing a spy novel.

4247

I'm writing a spy novel.

4249

But, you know, like my theory is that I was actually hired by raw

4254

and I was sent as an undercover agent to Sunday.

4258

And that is a good theory, deeply embedded to spy on me.

4264

And well, and on and on the country, you know.

4267

Yeah, because I managed.

4269

I mean, I used to do political journalism in those days.

4272

So interviewing all prime ministers and, you know,

4276

leaders of the opposition and stuff like that.

4279

It's a good way to report back to your handler.

4281

But unfortunately, that's not true.

4283

I would have liked to have two salaries, but it never happened.

4286

And I'm just thinking that, you know, every time you kept saying

4289

that I went for this means or I went for interview or I went to the raw interview

4294

and I'm waiting for the point where you say that I didn't get through,

4296

but you got through all of them.

4297

I got through all of them.

4299

And I'm just thinking that that must have done such wonders for your confidence,

4303

because one thing that I notice in not just young women today,

4306

but frankly, women of all ages, is this lack of self-belief,

4310

the imposter syndrome as it were.

4312

And I'm thinking that in the 80s, it must have been even worse

4316

finding that self-confidence where you just have many more men around.

4320

You know, I don't know what it was.

4323

But I've never ever felt that lack of confidence.

4327

In fact, according to Veer, I was obnoxious at the interview

4330

and treated him and Avik Sarkar like they were like misguided old people.

4336

But, you know, I think it's the arrogance of youth that you feel you can do anything.

4341

I probably now I would have more self-doubt because I know all the various things

4345

that go wrong.

4346

But when you're that young and you haven't really seen the world or whatever,

4351

you feel you can do anything.

4352

So that's it's a kind of a superpower almost.

4356

You know, the arrogance of youth.

4357

And that's what carried me through.

4359

And also, I think it mattered that I didn't really care

4362

deeply about these things, you know, like when you care a lot,

4366

then you probably mess up a little bit because you're so nervous and,

4369

you know, whatever.

4371

But I went into it like a lark, especially the raw interview.

4374

I definitely went into it for a lark because I didn't really,

4377

you know, want to join or whatever.

4380

In fact, it's the funniest thing, because some people from IB

4382

who came to do my due diligence and, you know, security check on Sunday,

4387

they came and told me, you know, you should advise her not to join.

4389

It's not a good place to be.

4393

So one government agency was running down the other.

4396

But I think it's also because I didn't really care that much.

4399

If I had really been invested in it, then maybe I would have been

4402

a little more nervous that I wasn't.

4404

And did you think of yourself as someone who likes to write,

4407

who wants to be a writer before all of this, because you were

4410

such a voracious reader, you did study literature.

4412

I did want to be a writer.

4414

That's true.

4415

But I never really thought of journalism.

4417

Somehow journalism was not something I grew up wanting to do.

4422

It was a complete accident.

4424

But I realized very soon after I joined that I enjoyed doing that.

4428

And when I had to make a decision between doing something I enjoyed doing

4432

and doing something that would probably pay me better at that point

4434

and would probably give me more prestige and, you know, all of that,

4439

I think I went with the writing part because that's what I enjoyed doing.

4442

And I thought I would end up doing better at it as I went along.

4446

And I was very lucky because, you know,

4449

because we were a very young organization and we were a very small organization.

4454

We got opportunities that people probably wouldn't get

4457

for another 10 years of their career.

4459

Like I joined in 87 and by 89, I was covering the general election.

4464

I was traveling with politicians to their constituencies.

4467

I was covering rallies.

4470

Then I covered the first day of V.P.

4472

Singh's joining his when he became prime minister.

4476

I covered that with Chandrasekhar.

4479

I remember going on Chandrasekhar's plane once, you know, accompanying him somewhere.

4484

And for somebody who's just out of college, that's such a huge opportunity.

4488

Like I was basically 24, 25 by then.

4491

And I was getting these enormous opportunities, you know, to do this kind of thing.

4496

So when you have that kind of, you know, a future opening up in front of you,

4502

then, you know, the IFS or the IAS or IPS or whatever doesn't sound very exciting

4509

because you're still very much a lowly bot once you're starting out.

4513

Whereas this was giving you an opportunity to meet people.

4517

I remember when I was still like maybe 25 or whatever.

4522

I went and met Vajpayee. He wasn't prime minister then.

4524

We were doing a story on poet politicians.

4527

And I went and interviewed him.

4529

And like you were saying about the pauses, remember, before we started.

4533

And I would ask him a question and then he would say a couple of sentences

4536

and then he would pause and then it was long silence.

4539

And I would think, now should I ask the next question?

4542

And just as I started, he would then start off again answering the previous one.

4546

And I was like really freaked out as to how this was playing out.

4550

But if I remember, when I went to interview him,

4554

I had gone from my office in PTI building to his Rai Sinha.

4558

I think it was on Rai Sinha Road in those days.

4561

And it started pouring.

4562

And by the time I got out of the three wheeler and went into his car,

4565

I was drenched completely.

4568

So the moment I went inside, Mrs.

4571

Kaul was there and she saw me and she said, Oh my God, I'm completely drenched.

4575

And she got me towels and then she got me tea and then she sat me down.

4579

And she was like so motherly and kind of made sure that I was OK

4582

before I started the interview.

4585

So I had these really lovely experiences with people, you know, in those days.

4589

And when you're young and you have this sort of, you know,

4592

world opening up before you, you can't think of giving that up, you know,

4596

to do something so boring as to sit in an office and just, you know, push pens.

4601

You don't want to do that.

4603

And I had a similar stroke of good luck in the early 2000s

4606

when I was also in my 20s.

4608

And online cricket, online sports journalism had just started.

4612

So I worked first for Wisden.com and then for Crick-N-Four.

4615

And there were a bunch of us young people, Rahul Bhattacharya, me,

4619

later on Siddharth Vaidyanathan, all big names now except me.

4623

And what we would and I realized that wherever we went to cover test matches

4629

and we would cover straight away, we were covering test matches.

4632

And all these older fogies would look at us with so much resentment.

4635

Exactly. And later one of them took me aside

4638

and he said, you know, Amit, I think he was from one of the news agencies.

4642

And he said, let me tell you how it is.

4644

I started in Times of India today.

4645

I'm here in Times of India.

4647

It got me four years to get to cricket.

4649

And I was allowed then to go to college cricket and, you know,

4653

I got my first Ranji Trophy game after eight years in the thing.

4656

You know, I got my first test match after 20 years in the profession.

4660

Can you imagine?

4660

You are kids, you have come, you are directly playing with us in the test match.

4664

You can also, you know, he was very honest about it, but the others weren't.

4668

And what I and I, of course, also had the arrogance of youth.

4673

And and sometimes it helps when you're really bad,

4676

but you think you're really good because, you know,

4679

because then you fake it till you make it in a sense.

4682

And I think that's what I did.

4683

And what I want to ask you about is then also that process

4688

of learning about two important things in journalism.

4690

One is just the writing itself, like who were you writing and reporting?

4694

Like, were there any writing or reporting or so to say?

4697

How did you kind of figure that stuff out?

4700

Because as a young person looking at myself, I would try too hard.

4704

I would want to show off my facility with the language, do fancy things and all of that.

4708

And gradually, over time, that gets beaten out of you and you learn what not to do.

4712

So, you know, I want to understand that process of learning about writing and reporting

4717

and also the process of learning basic

4721

journalistic values, because it strikes me that, you know,

4724

abroad people will go to Columbia Journalism School or they'll go to some journalism school.

4728

And even within institutions, there are, you know, there are sets of values which are embedded.

4734

But from what I remember of the little that I've seen of Indian journalism back in the day,

4739

it was very haphazard. If you were lucky, you got a good editor who would teach you a lot.

4743

But otherwise, you know, you would be thrown into the thick of things.

4746

You just had to produce a lot of copy.

4749

And you weren't really learning much either in terms of writing or in terms of values.

4754

So what was that learning process for you?

4756

You know, for me, it was different because I actually joined a desk.

4760

So I wasn't really a reporter reporter.

4762

I was a I started off as a trainee sub editor.

4765

So I was under training.

4767

I was on probation for like six months or whatever.

4770

And I spent so we used to do reporting on the side.

4774

Like that was a treat for us.

4775

Like, you know, you would get assigned a story to do.

4778

And it was something that you did because you were so excited about it.

4781

Your basic job was to sit and rewrite copy that came from the Delhi Bureau,

4785

the Bombay Bureau or whatever.

4788

And of course, you didn't get to rewrite right away because you had to had to learn how to do it.

4793

But I actually enjoyed the rewriting because I felt that

4799

again, arrogance of youth that I was improving copy.

4802

And honestly speaking, some of the copy was pretty bad.

4806

And the good thing about, you know, studying literature at Loretto

4810

is that they taught you how to write.

4811

So at least you knew basic grammar and you knew basic things of how you wanted to do it.

4818

But the training of how to put a new story together and how to do this,

4822

that came on the job because I didn't do any journalistic training whatsoever.

4826

I learned everything on the job, even learning how to sub, how to put in, you know,

4830

those stets symbols and all of that.

4833

I learned on the job. I had no idea what I was getting into.

4837

But I had the person I used to report to immediately was Chitreta Banerjee,

4842

who's now a food writer who writes these food books and stuff.

4847

And she used to kind of help us and teach us various things.

4852

And then Veer, of course, was the editor, but he was too busy to do like proper training.

4859

But once you had edited a story and especially the bigger stories, then they would go to him

4865

and then he would tell you what was wrong and what was right and what it should be.

4870

And like you said, you know, all your adjectives are thrown out and, you know,

4874

you have to pare down your writing and be like whatever.

4878

And also in those days, there used to be these very itty bitty

4882

gossipy pieces that used to go on, I forget what was called Delhi Diary or something.

4888

And that that actually was a good training ground to learn how to write

4891

because it had to be pithy.

4893

It had to be witty.

4894

It had to have information and had to be like 250 words.

4898

So that was good training for us, you know, because you would just get this information

4902

from the Delhi Bureau, you know, that this it was basically a gossip column,

4905

you know, yeah, who are and then you put it together somehow into a little thing.

4910

And there were no bylines.

4911

There was no pressure that people were going to judge you by what you had written.

4915

So that was good training.

4917

And then in the back of the book, we had book reviews

4920

and we had stuff like that.

4922

So we actually got to do a lot of different things.

4925

Like, you know, we got there was a business section.

4927

So we'd edit business copy as well.

4929

So it actually trained us a lot.

4931

Like, for instance, I remember I was working on this cover story

4935

on this whole Harsha Mehta, you know, whatever thingy.

4939

And in just working on that story, I learned so much about the stock exchange,

4944

which I promptly forgot two months later, but that's a different story.

4948

But every story just taught you so much, you know.

4951

So it was a really good training ground.

4954

And you learned your you learned essential skills like, you know,

4958

what should the first part of a story be?

4961

It should be something that draws you in.

4963

It has to have at least three bits of information which power it through.

4968

You can't end in the middle.

4970

You have to have a rounded, you know, thing at the end of your story.

4974

So the beginning and the end of your story have to be really strong.

4978

And then you work on the middle.

4979

So we learn these essential skills.

4982

And then I think it's just a question of whether you're good at it or bad at it.

4986

You can't really train somebody who is not a good writer to be a good writer.

4991

You can train them to be a competent writer.

4993

But I think writing is something that's either innate or, you know, you

4998

you have to have a gift.

5000

I don't think a competent writer can be trained.

5003

But, you know, to be a really good writer, I don't think you can train that.

5009

Prem Panikkar, who I mentioned a while back,

5011

once lamented about journalism that as budgets are falling,

5014

what is happening is that you have less and less journalists in the newsrooms,

5019

having to churn out more and more stories in terms of, you know, per

5022

capita output, as it were.

5023

And the result is that a lot of news is like a mile wide and an inch deep.

5028

And one of the dangers of that is that journalists have become genderless.

5034

Right. And and I'm reminded of I mean, I mean, there are

5038

two places I'm going with this.

5039

One is this phenomenon known as Gelman amnesia.

5042

Have you heard of it? No.

5043

So Gelman amnesia is Murray Gelman, our famous physicist

5047

that once pointed something out to Michael Crickton, who later called it

5050

Gelman amnesia and wrote about it.

5052

And it basically is that you read something in a newspaper

5055

on a subject, you know, about deeply and you'll realize it's rubbish.

5058

They know nothing.

5059

But you will trust it on every other subject.

5061

That's so true. Even though they got your subject wrong.

5064

And one reason for that, obviously, is that a newspaper, especially in India,

5069

you know, where a journalist is expected to do one or two stories a day,

5072

often in some newsrooms and the specialist beats are disappearing.

5077

You could be doing like, you know, going from one subject to the other

5081

that a journalist covering of any subject will be so incredibly shallow

5085

that any specialist in the field will obviously know what the hell is this.

5089

And I'm thinking that for you in a magazine,

5092

it must have therefore been an advantage

5094

that you don't have that kind of quantity pressure, right?

5097

That you have to produce one, two stories a day.

5099

So if you're doing a Harshad Mehta story, you can spend three weeks on it.

5102

You can you can really crock the subject and understand the stock market.

5106

And also, you know, in a newspaper, there is a lot of pressure

5111

because you still have to fill that front page every single day.

5114

Whereas in a magazine, you have it was a weekly magazine.

5117

So it wasn't like a monthly.

5119

So there was still some pressure.

5120

I mean, we still pulled all nighters and stuff like that, putting it to bed.

5124

So that was there.

5125

But it wasn't like a newspaper newspaper in that sense.

5128

And also, we were lucky because we had bureaus, you know,

5132

who could report back to us and stuff now.

5136

But I don't know, newspapers don't really have staff any longer.

5140

There's hardly anybody on the desk.

5142

There's hardly anybody in the bureaus.

5144

Half of them are relying on PTI copy or, you know, that kind of thing.

5148

So we were lucky because people put resources into reporting.

5152

Like, I remember we used to have this lady who worked with us, Shiraz Siddva,

5159

who used to cover Kashmir and stuff.

5161

And I lost count of the number of times that we actually sent her to Kashmir to do stories.

5165

It wasn't like we were relying on some stringer to just, you know,

5168

file and copy and just do it.

5170

And all of that took money.

5172

And we were willing to spend that money, you know, to to do that.

5176

Now, journalism just doesn't have that either they don't have the resources

5180

or they don't have the will or they don't have the inclination.

5183

I don't know what it is.

5185

And also, I'm thinking that because of the way in which we consume information

5189

and the way we consume news has changed,

5192

something else has also changed in the way that it is presented to us.

5196

For example, I remember in the 80s and 90s, I love reading Sunday.

5200

I don't specifically remember reading your byline in those days,

5203

but I would love to read those.

5205

I thought they were so sharp and crisp and well written and insightful.

5208

And what great editors tend to do, you know, whether it's

5212

we're in Sunday or my friend Sambit Bal in Gentleman at one point in time

5216

or perhaps Vinod Mehta and any of the places he was at at certain stints.

5220

Not always.

5222

What great editors tend to be is also they tend to be great curators.

5226

It is as if they are telling you this is what is important about the world.

5229

I am presenting it to you in one package.

5232

And that package is this magazine called Sunday

5234

or this magazine called Gentleman or whatever it is.

5237

And it's an invaluable function.

5239

And and we would go out there and we would buy that package.

5243

And we would know that, yeah, there is a sensibility and a perspective

5247

that has shaped this package and we can trust it.

5249

And I and I just realized I haven't probably bought a magazine in 10 to 15 years.

5254

Yeah, you know, I consume everything online.

5257

I'm clicking on links.

5258

So I might read a piece in whatever Sunday's equivalent today would be.

5263

But I would read a piece, you know, and the curators of today

5267

are perhaps cultural curators, maybe in some way even me,

5270

because people say that, you know, they'll follow all my guests

5273

and they look at the show notes and all of that.

5275

But the world is more complex than ever.

5279

We are dazzled by the amount of data that's available out there.

5283

And perhaps we look at influencers as a certain kind of curator.

5287

Or we look at whatever we have made out of our Twitter feed as a kind of curation.

5292

But I'm feeling that that role, in a sense, which a great editor would play.

5297

And you've been an editor yourself as well.

5299

You know, it's perhaps lost.

5301

Yeah, I mean, it's probably probably overstating the case.

5306

But there aren't that many great editors left, are there?

5309

I mean, I can't think offhand of anybody.

5312

You know, an editor also is in a sense a talent spotter.

5317

You know, like you want to do something on the film industry.

5322

You think of the best person who can do that piece and you hire that person,

5325

you brief that person and you get the best piece out of that person.

5329

Editor is not necessarily somebody who understands every single subject,

5333

but knows what he wants out of out of it.

5337

And I think that skill is lost, you know, that that skill

5340

of just kind of spreading your net far and wide,

5344

like if you're doing business reporting, going to the best possible person to get it.

5348

If you're saying reviewing a book on politics,

5350

finding the best possible person who has like, you know, domain knowledge

5355

to actually write about that book, I think that is disappearing

5359

because I don't see that anymore, really.

5363

And I guess it's natural for that to disappear because that particular package

5367

called A magazine or A whatever is disappearing itself.

5371

So you might have individual talents striking out.

5374

Like I remember the editor I was fortunate to work with in my early days, Sambit Bal.

5378

One thing that amazed me about him, and he was, of course, in the world of features.

5383

So kind of different world from you for a gentleman and then wisdom

5386

and then trick and for where he still is.

5388

And he was like a magnet for young talent.

5391

And he would nurture them so beautifully.

5393

You know, you see, that's the other thing.

5395

An editor needs to have so much self-confidence.

5398

But so many people these days feel threatened by younger people who are talented.

5403

You know, but an editor needs to have that confidence

5406

to be able to give the other person space.

5410

Like, I find it so strange, you know, when when senior people want to hog bylines.

5415

I mean, you should give bylines to younger people.

5418

You know, they're the ones who are starting out.

5419

They're the ones to whom it means so much.

5422

I mean, I remember starting out and when I went and interviewed

5425

Chandrasekhar, for instance, on his first day at SPM and Anand Bazar Patrika,

5430

they translate, they asked me to file and they translated into Bengali

5434

because I don't really write Bengali.

5436

And I got a front page byline on Anand Bazar Patrika.

5440

I still remember the thrill I felt, you know, as a young person,

5443

even though I didn't I wasn't really a Bengali speaker or whatever.

5447

And I couldn't really understand.

5448

But it was a big deal for me.

5450

Whereas when you're in your 50s or whatever, I mean, it's old hat, you know,

5455

you don't really need a byline to prove anything to yourself.

5458

You should give it to young people and let them enjoy that moment.

5462

And, you know, feel.

5464

But very few people have the generosity of spirit to do it.

5467

It's quite sad.

5469

And the second part of my question about your learning process, one was, of course,

5472

about writing and reporting, and you've spoken about how so much of that

5476

was on the job being thrown into the thick of things, working with good people.

5480

But the second part was really in a sense about the values that

5484

how do I approach a story, you know, what are the areas to get into?

5488

What are my ethics while I'm doing this?

5490

Is there sort of a higher purpose?

5493

Because I am constantly conflicted into different directions

5496

when I think about journalism, that on the one hand,

5500

I like to think of there being a set of values that are dear to me, that one,

5503

of course, a pursuit of truth is above all else.

5506

But whether you are sort of afflicting the comfort,

5509

comfortable and comforting the afflicted or you're speaking truth to power,

5513

any of those cliches that there is a sense that there is a higher calling,

5517

that there is a sacredness that I cannot compromise.

5520

Right. But at the same time, there is the understanding

5523

that this is also a business venture.

5525

And I consider business ventures to be entirely honorable.

5528

The pursuit of profit is deeply honorable to me because the only way

5532

you can make profit is by making someone else better off in a free market.

5535

So I'm not sort of going on an anti-profit or anti-capitalist rant.

5539

I am a committed capitalist.

5541

And there, the imperative is that, look, you know, people have invested money.

5546

At the end of the day, every publication or whatever has a responsibility

5550

to its shareholders as well.

5551

And that also becomes important.

5553

And then that incentive or imperative can also shape

5557

the kind of stories that you do.

5559

And the waters get muddied where in India, for example,

5563

pretty much every mainstream publication has other business interests.

5567

No one is just a newspaper.

5568

There could be a big newspaper,

5570

but the owner of the newspaper could also own chemical factories

5573

and the government could set the ED on them the next day.

5576

So there are all those pressures to contend with.

5579

So then as a journalist, what was your sense of values?

5583

Like, what was the evolution of your sense of values?

5586

Like, if you were to define, say, your duty as a journalist,

5589

how do you define it? Is it a duty to a story or as an editor?

5594

It's a much broader thing.

5595

You're not only doing a story, you're choosing what to cover

5598

and who to cover it with.

5600

You know, like you said about newspapers having different interests,

5603

I was very lucky that I worked for Anand Bazar Patrika

5606

because they don't have any other businesses.

5608

So they weren't the those the pressures that you talk about.

5611

Oh, you know, I'm sure there were pressures.

5613

I'm sure that people did put pressure on them,

5616

but they were not so compromised in that sense.

5620

And in all my years of working for Sunday and then for Telegraph,

5625

I cannot remember a single instance when Avik Sarkar would call me up

5629

and ask me, A, what story I was doing or two, not to do the story.

5633

Never happened.

5635

And there was never any story I filed that never got used

5638

because he was scared of, you know, what the repercussions would be or whatever.

5643

So I think I was very privileged in that sense.

5646

Most people don't have that privilege.

5647

They have all kinds of pressures operating on them,

5651

which both you and I know what the pressures are.

5653

So I was lucky in that sense that I didn't have that.

5657

But I think when you're talking about principles of journalism,

5660

I think your principal responsibility has to be to your reader.

5665

I think it's not to the story.

5666

It's not to the publication.

5669

It has to be to your reader because you owe your reader the truth.

5673

No matter what the story is, it could be the story about a design

5676

collection or a fashion show, could be a story about a restaurant opening.

5681

It could be a story about parliamentary proceedings.

5684

It could be a story about the launch of a new car.

5688

It doesn't matter what the story is.

5690

I think what you owe your reader is the truth.

5693

And if you can't give him the truth, then it's better

5695

you not do the story at all, because it's no point doing a story

5699

if you have to obfuscate about it.

5702

I think that is the guiding principle, as far as I am concerned,

5706

that if you can't tell the truth and don't do it, it's no point.

5710

And as an editor, it's not just about telling the truth.

5713

Let's say you can tell the truth about any story that you choose to tell,

5716

but you have limited space and you choose a limited set of stories.

5719

And the danger is that if you are constantly guided

5723

by what the reader already wants or what you think he already wants

5726

or what your market research indicates he already wants, then everybody's

5730

in a race to the bottom in a sense.

5732

Then you give Bollywood and cricket and all of that.

5734

No, I don't think you give the reader what he wants.

5737

You give the reader the truth, but it's not necessarily what he's asking for

5741

because the reader will read what you give him.

5744

Either you have to decide to shape your readership.

5748

You can't just blindly give whatever, like if there are three magazines

5753

in the market and two of them are doing the same kind of stories,

5756

you don't necessarily have to be the third one doing the same kind of story.

5760

You can do something different.

5761

Maybe, maybe it will work.

5762

Maybe it won't.

5763

But you have to have some confidence in your own judgment

5767

that this is what is important.

5768

You can't really, I mean, just rely on, like you said,

5772

the lowest common denominator and do it.

5774

Like if you were to do a Bollywood story, it would sell.

5777

But you can't keep doing Bollywood stories every single time you do a cover story.

5781

You have to kind of, you know, go beyond that.

5783

I mean, that's, I think, one of the problems with the way

5787

the fashion magazines function, for instance, no matter what happens,

5790

there's a film star on the cover.

5792

So, you know, I find it a bit strange.

5796

So tell me about, you know, it's almost as if in your journalistic career,

5800

you were before you could think you're thrown into the middle of things.

5803

You're in a newsroom.

5804

Then you get a story once in a while.

5807

And then suddenly you're out doing political reporters.

5810

You're meeting Vajpayee and taking in his long pauses.

5812

You're meeting all of these.

5815

So what was that journey like?

5817

And as that journey happened,

5818

what did you learn about the kind of work you wanted to do?

5821

You know, the one thing I was always sure was I didn't want to just write about politics.

5826

I wanted to write about more than politics, because beyond the point,

5831

all political stories are a little bit the same.

5834

I mean, there's not much to do about it.

5837

And daily political reportage never excited me in the same way,

5842

like, you know, going and attending a BJP press conference at the end,

5846

up to in the days when there were BJP press conferences.

5849

In the days when there were BJP press conferences every day,

5851

up to there are no press conferences only.

5854

But in the old days, there used to be this tradition of political parties

5858

holding conferences for beat reporters.

5861

And then they're coming back and writing it over.

5864

I mean, that kind of writing was fine as a starting out point.

5868

But it didn't excite me that much.

5870

Like, I always wanted to do profiles on people.

5873

I wanted to spend time with them, try and understand where they're coming from.

5878

It could be politicians, it could be a film star,

5882

it could be a business executive.

5885

But I was interested by people journalism because I found that really interesting.

5890

Like, I remember spending time with Uma Bharti

5894

in the days when, you know, she was a very different person.

5897

You know, she had just come into the limelight.

5900

And I remember spending a couple of days with her in Delhi.

5904

And she was such a bubbly and sweet person.

5907

I remember one instance, particularly, I went and saw her in her flat,

5912

somewhere around 3 Murti Road or somewhere.

5914

And she saw me and she took me, she dragged me in front of the mirror and said,

5918

see, we look like sisters.

5921

So I said, yeah, yeah.

5923

As a journalist, you said, yeah, yeah, do everything to make sure that people think.

5926

But did you look like sisters?

5928

I don't think so.

5930

But she thought so.

5931

And then she showed me her doll collection.

5934

I mean, would you think that Uma Bharti had a doll collection?

5937

That's so endearing. That's such a lovely detail, actually.

5940

Yeah. And then I went and travelled with her to Madhya Pradesh.

5944

I covered a rally.

5945

And I like doing stories like that when you could actually spend time with people.

5949

And in Sunday, we still had long form journalism.

5951

So you could do, like, you know, lengthy profiles, just, you know,

5955

examining what people were like.

5956

It's not that you have to put it in, like, 550 words and, you know, do it,

5959

which is what it is now.

5961

So I enjoyed doing things like that.

5963

I did a lot of film journalism as well in those days.

5967

That was the time that Anil Kapoor was emerging as the big hero.

5972

And we did a whole cover story on whether he would take over from Amitabh Bachchan.

5977

Of course, we all know how that turned out, but it was good fun.

5981

I went and spent time on the sets of Tridev and I met all the producers and the distributors.

5987

And so we did all these deep dives into subjects like that.

5991

And I really and then during the general election, I remember the first general in 89,

5996

the first one that I covered, we did a whole story on Maharajas on the campaign trail.

6002

So we covered Bhavani Singh in Jaipur and we covered Pataudi in Bhopal and we covered Vasundhara Raje.

6010

And so we did all these, you know, the royals on the on the campaign trail kind of story.

6016

And Nitin Rai was a photographer in those days, Pragu Rai's son.

6021

And Nitin and I were in this Khatara ambassador going from place to place and driving around, following these people around.

6029

We spent like two weeks on the road researching the story.

6032

So those were the stories that I really enjoyed doing and which I still think back to, you know, with some nostalgia.

6039

But the normal bread and butter stories don't really live with you.

6042

They are like something you do and then you forget about it and move on.

6046

I mean, traveling in Khatara jeeps.

6048

What was the best days of your life when you look back?

6051

Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

6054

I like to think the best days are yet to come.

6056

I hope so. I hope so.

6059

Did you write about Mahavati songs?

6061

I think I did. You know, the worst part of it is, you know, the Anand Bazaar library burned down, didn't you?

6067

No, I didn't.

6068

So there was this huge, while I was still working with Telegraph, one day I went to the office and the whole street was blocked off and the entire building was on fire.

6078

And by fire, I mean, like proper, you know, flames bursting out.

6081

So the entire library was destroyed and they had to somehow, you know, restore it digitally.

6086

So I don't even know if those stories exist anymore because I never kept any clippings.

6091

So I'll have to find out if they still exist.

6093

But I remember doing the stories, so definitely.

6096

That's a great tragedy. I wonder how much old Sundays would sell for.

6099

I mean, I used to love your political coverage of this magazine.

6104

I don't know how they would have restored it.

6105

Maybe they went to other people and tried to get or whatever.

6108

But it used to be a really good library, which had every clipping you wanted and really well done.

6114

We used to have this really good librarian called Shakti Roy, who was to run it like a little dictator.

6121

And it all went up in smoke, literally.

6124

It's really distressing.

6126

Something else I want to know about when you said that when you started right at the very start, you were the person that sent to the library to get a clip or whatever.

6133

And I'm just thinking of like how I research for an episode today is I can really do it sitting on my computer.

6139

I can read every book the person has written.

6141

I can read every article they have written.

6143

I can see all the YouTube interviews.

6145

I can just do it all here, sitting here, one person, no assistant required.

6149

And I can type everything myself.

6151

And like everything is computer.

6153

But I remember even back in the day, like when I was in advertising in the 90s, for example, or in television,

6161

our technology was so outdated.

6163

A laptop would seem such a glamorous thing to me from a distance.

6166

Like I really wanted to own my own laptop.

6169

It was such a dream in the 90s.

6171

Right.

6172

If you want to write and tell me a little bit about those sort of processes, like what would a typical day be like?

6179

Because if you are being sent to interview someone, you do not have the Internet.

6183

How do you even know what they look like?

6187

How do you get hold of a book they have written?

6189

So what was that process like?

6192

In fact, when I started off in Sunday, we used to work on typewriters.

6197

It was not even, we didn't even have those old fashioned,

6200

it's only like two years into working into Sunday that we started getting into those little computers,

6204

which used to work with that floppy disk.

6206

That big black floppy disk.

6209

And I actually learned typing on the job.

6212

I didn't really know how to type or anything.

6213

It was literally two fingers.

6215

But, you know, the process was so different.

6218

Like I remember in those days, like when I just joined Sunday, being sent off to interview PC Sarkar.

6225

And as you said, there was no way to research it except for the library.

6232

So you had to go to the library, look at old clips, maybe talk to a few people on the staff,

6236

the older members who maybe had some memories of him or somebody who had seen a show or whatever.

6242

And I remember going to interview him and I was made to sit in this waiting room while he was inside.

6249

And he had this rope that was like literally horizontal.

6253

And I don't know how it kept upright.

6255

And I tried to figure it out.

6257

I went close by and it was nothing was holding it up, but it stayed upright.

6260

It was probably one magic trick of his or something.

6263

And he was like the most amazing man.

6266

But like you said, I had no context for him.

6270

I hadn't even seen one of his shows.

6271

So it's not like I went and saw a show after I interviewed him.

6276

But we're very lucky now.

6278

I don't know how we functioned in those days.

6281

Like even when it came to political reporting, like if I interviewed Uma Bharti or whatever,

6286

I had no context for her.

6288

I had to talk to other people in the BJP to get some inputs on her.

6293

Then we used to have a sister publication called Ravi Var, which was a Hindi publication.

6298

So they had a lot of reporters from Madhya Pradesh or Uttar Pradesh or whatever.

6303

So if you were interviewing somebody from that milieu, you went and chatted with them.

6308

Rajiv Shukla used to be a big resource for us in those days.

6311

He used to work for Ravi Var and then started writing for Sunday.

6314

And he was very clued in this whole Hindi-built universe.

6320

So anytime we wanted information, you would call him up and there were no mobile phones.

6325

So you had to call up the office and then you had to find out when Rajiv would be there.

6329

Then he would wander into the office and if he felt like it, he would call you back.

6332

And if he didn't, he wouldn't.

6334

So it was tough actually, the kind of stuff that we had to do, the kind of running around.

6340

And for every story you did, you had to interview at least five or six ancillary people to just

6347

get information.

6349

And we never did those interviews on the phone either, we always went and met people.

6354

And I can imagine the pros and the cons.

6356

And the cons of course are that it's much easier to get much more dope today.

6359

So today if I interview someone, I have much more knowledge about them than I could possibly have.

6364

But the pros of doing it in that old school way is that you are much more engaged in the

6370

research work that you are putting in.

6372

You're having conversations with people about those people, you're kind of doing all of

6378

that.

6379

And I wonder if an analogue to that is a process of writing itself.

6384

Something my students will often tell me is, how should I write?

6386

Should I do it on the computer?

6387

Or should I do it by hand?

6389

And I just think that like number one, the obvious answer that comes to me is that words

6392

are words, whatever you're comfortable with.

6395

But if you think a little deeper, there is a difference that when I'm writing into a

6400

physical notepad with a pen, because it is slower, I am forced to be a little more deliberate

6405

and deliberative and to think harder about what I am doing.

6409

And if I look at the transitional phase where you're doing it into a physical typewriter,

6413

which I have used for a very brief while, there is no backspace in whatever.

6417

You have to do a full page all over again.

6419

So you really need to have that certainty about your words and your thinking, whereas

6424

on the computer, I can do whatever I know there's a backspace and all of that.

6428

And how have your habits evolved?

6429

And do you feel it's kind of changed in the way that you work and perhaps the way that

6434

you think?

6435

You know, it's strange you should say that because when I started out writing, I could

6440

only write longhand.

6442

Even if I had to write a story, I would write it longhand and then I would type it on my

6446

typewriter.

6447

I never typed it.

6449

But over the years, I find that I find it more easy writing on a laptop.

6455

I just somehow that discipline of writing by hand, I seem to have lost.

6460

Now when I try to write by hand, either my handwriting goes awry or I miss out on words

6466

or you know, something like that.

6468

Because if I write on the computer, thoughts come more easily to me.

6473

I think I made that transition in my head.

6475

Like for instance, now, even when it comes to reading news stories, like I would much

6481

rather read the New York Times on my phone than read the HD in a print edition.

6487

I don't know why.

6488

I just find it much easier.

6491

I recorded yesterday with a philosopher, writer, triathlete called Akash Singh Rathore.

6496

He told me about this Norwegian writer who's a friend of his called Torkel Brekker.

6501

He came across I think Brekker's sixth book or seventh book called Foundations.

6505

He thought, hey, I've read everything by this guy, but the prose is so different.

6508

What the hell happened?

6509

The sentences are shorter, it's just full of life, there's momentum, everything is charging

6513

forward.

6514

So he sent an email to Torkel saying, you know, what's the deal?

6517

What did you do?

6519

His friend sends him back a photograph, which is of a treadmill desk.

6522

So he has a treadmill and he's attached to a desk at the end of it.

6526

And he's literally typing while walking.

6528

And that's changed his entire...

6529

And that's changed his style.

6531

And I'm presuming that that change between his walking and the language must also have

6537

changed in his brain and the way he's thinking.

6540

I don't think I could do that.

6541

I can't walk and write at the same time, no.

6543

I have to concentrate on the writing.

6545

So I have a sit-stand desk at home, but I don't use it to stand.

6549

It's one of those automatic things.

6550

You press a button, it goes all the way, but I don't use it to actually stand and write.

6554

What I use it for in my lazy Bengali way is that I will sit in different angles of slouch

6559

and I will adjust it to the angle of slouch.

6563

On that note of slouching, let's take a quick commercial break and let's continue at the

6567

other end of it.

6568

Great.

6572

Hey, the music started and this sounds like a commercial, but it isn't.

6575

It's a plea from me to check out my latest Labour of Love, a YouTube show I am co-hosting

6580

with my good friend, the brilliant Ajay Shah.

6583

We've called it Everything is Everything.

6585

Every week, we'll speak for about an hour on things we care about, from the profound

6589

to the profane, from the exalted to the everyday.

6592

We range widely across subjects and we bring multiple frames with which we try to understand

6597

the world.

6598

Please join us on our journey and please support us by subscribing to our YouTube channel at

6602

youtube.com slash amitvarma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A.

6606

The show is called Everything is Everything.

6609

Please do check it out.

6614

Welcome back to The Scene and the Unseen.

6615

I'm chatting with Seema Goswami, who's just delighting me with her extreme candour.

6621

And, you know, in the break, we were talking about how long we want to live and I was telling

6626

you that, you know, there are friends of mine who, inspired by the likes of David Sinclair

6630

and Peter Attia, keep telling me that, hey, we will have, we will live till 120.

6634

And my initial reaction would be, I do not want that.

6637

I don't want that at all.

6639

Then, you know, one concept they keep coming up with is, like, there's a term lifespan.

6644

Now, I heard this recent interview of Peter Attia, I think it's either on the Shane Parrish

6649

show or one of these podcasts, I'll link it from the show notes, where he introduced

6655

me to the term healthspan.

6656

Yeah, I heard of that, yeah.

6658

Healthspan is how long you're healthy.

6660

And my scene is, I don't really care about the lifespan bit, because I don't want like

6664

50 years of dementia.

6665

Like, that's horrible.

6666

That's a nightmare.

6667

But the healthspan thing I can live with, though, having said that every once in a while

6672

in my morose way, I'll wonder, why not live, why, what is it, you know, finish this drama.

6677

But as, you know, I'm almost 50 and you're in your 50s and, you know, reaching here,

6684

how has the way you look at time sort of changed?

6688

Because I remember when I was 20, 40 seemed almost old to me.

6693

I wanted immediate gratification.

6695

I wanted to be world famous by 25, Booker Prize by 28, all of that rubbish.

6701

And of course, part of sort of maturing and adulting, you kind of realize that A, a lot

6705

of your dreams are not going to come true, but B, a lot of them were the wrong dreams

6708

to have anyway.

6710

And you kind of adjust the way you think about the world, but also the way you think about

6713

time changes.

6714

Right?

6715

Like, right now, I am further away from my birth than my birth was from, say, the Second

6721

World War.

6722

Right?

6724

And, you know, earlier, we would read about something that happened a hundred years ago

6728

and it would seem like incredibly distant.

6731

But suddenly you're at 50.

6733

It feels like decades have just passed.

6735

A friend of mine likes to say that the days are long, but the years are short.

6740

And how has the way that you look at yourself through this prism of time kind of changed?

6747

Like, you know, the youthful you would have visualized one kind of life for yourself.

6751

Like, what was that like?

6752

How has that changed?

6753

You know, it's funny you say that because I was just watching a TV show the other day,

6759

which was set in the 1970s.

6761

And I was thinking how strange it is to have a period show of a period I actually lived

6767

through.

6768

You know, because in my mind, period shows are about the 1920s and 1930s or whatever.

6773

But this was a period show of the 1970s.

6776

And sometimes even the 80s, in which I was already like in class 10 or whatever.

6781

But, you know, when growing up, how I visualized my life, to be honest, I had very little clue

6789

of what my life was going to be like when I was 50 or whatever.

6792

I never really thought about it.

6794

I really, I actually lived for the moment, you know, I never even thought about, like,

6801

I should save money and I should keep this aside, you know, in case I grow old or whatever.

6806

I never thought of that.

6808

It was really a sort of a hedonistic existence where you just wanted to enjoy yourself.

6813

You wanted to go out with friends, go on holiday, have fun or whatever.

6818

But as I've grown older, I think time has kind of both slowed down and sped up in some ways.

6827

Like, for instance, during the lockdown, it was like almost two years of complete solitary,

6832

a solitary experience, just sitting at home and doing nothing.

6836

And time kind of expanded in that period.

6839

Every day seemed so long.

6841

You didn't know what to do with it.

6843

But in a sense, it was also great for me because I could concentrate on stuff.

6848

You know, I could concentrate on my writing.

6850

I could, there weren't too many distractions or whatever.

6854

And ever since we've come out of lockdown, I feel like I'm trying very hard to make up a lost time.

6860

Like, you know, I didn't travel during that period.

6862

So now I'm traveling almost every month.

6864

I try and make a trip to kind of make up for it.

6867

And as you grow older, like I'm in my 50s and I keep thinking,

6871

oh my God, there's so much of the world I haven't seen.

6873

I better do it in the next 10 years because after that, God knows, I'm going to be in a wheelchair or something.

6880

But, you know, it's true because, you know, the older you grow, your energy levels go down.

6886

And you, for instance, when you're young, you can do like two day trips and you can just do everything

6891

in those two days and come back and rejoin work and you're fine.

6894

But when you're older, you want one day to relax and one day to do stuff.

6898

And then you come back from holiday, you want one day to recover.

6901

So things change, you know, so like I said, time both speeds up and slows down for you as you grow older.

6908

So it is different. And you also have the sense of time running out on you.

6913

You feel, OK, like at the moment, I'm working on a spy novel, which I should finish by the end of the year, hopefully.

6921

And I keep feeling, OK, like it'll come out next year.

6924

And then I have these two years to do another book.

6927

And how many books can I realistically do after that before my mind gives up on me?

6932

So you have those fears, you know, that you fear that your mind will slow down, words don't come as easily.

6938

And, you know, your imagination probably won't be as vivid as it was when you were young.

6943

So you have all these fears as you grow older.

6946

You wrote this beautiful column on Covid, you know, the ways in which they were good for you.

6952

And, you know, the potted version of that is that one, you liked how your world shrank down to your core groups,

6958

so casual acquaintances, distant family members out of the window.

6962

It's, you know, the people you really care about.

6965

And then when you're locked up in your homes, you have unlimited time to yourself,

6969

where a lot of outside distractions aren't there and you can just spend time with yourself.

6973

You spoke about how you love going for walks in parks.

6977

And that was great during the lockdown.

6979

There was nobody around.

6980

There was nobody around.

6982

And, you know, the charm of the road trip and, of course, the air you got to breathe in Delhi,

6986

which is not something you can do anything about.

6988

But all the other stuff was interesting to me because it was almost like this really weird circumstance,

6997

which no one could have predicted the circumstance of Covid and lockdowns,

7000

suddenly got you and I think a lot of people, including perhaps me to some extent,

7005

closer to, you know, discovering what was important for them,

7009

what was working for them, what was not working for them.

7012

And so I'll ask you a hypothetical question, which sometimes can do that.

7015

It's like my favorite party question.

7017

So people who heard it before kindly excuse.

7019

But it's a two part question, starting with one scenario.

7023

A comet is heading towards planet Earth.

7025

It is going to hit the Earth.

7026

We are all going to die.

7028

This is a given. There is scientific consensus.

7030

Everybody accepts it.

7031

Everybody will cease to exist.

7033

So now there are two parts to the question.

7035

Part one is if you have 24 hours to live, what would you do in those 24 hours?

7041

OK, what would I do in those 24 hours?

7045

So I know I'm going to die, right?

7047

Everybody's going to die.

7048

And everybody knows it. And there's nothing that can be done.

7051

Gosh, I think I may just go to bed.

7058

I don't think I'll be able to do anything.

7059

I'll be paralyzed by the thought of impending doom.

7064

What would you do?

7067

No, I'll ask you first. I'll tell you my answers later.

7070

OK, I really don't know what I would do.

7072

Assume you can click out of this paralysis and you have 24 hours.

7075

Assume I can click out of the paralysis.

7081

I'll probably take my husband and go for a walk in Sundar nursery

7085

and look at all the nice plants,

7088

have a cup of coffee.

7091

Then have a nice meal, maybe.

7096

Call up my sister.

7099

Make sure she's OK.

7102

I mean, basically speak to my family.

7106

That's it.

7107

If you had 24 months.

7108

24 months. My gosh, that's a long time.

7111

That's the second question. If you're 24 months, what will you do?

7113

If I knew a comment is coming in 24 months.

7116

But sharp, the date is decided.

7118

There's nothing. I would spend all my money.

7122

I would travel around the world.

7124

I'll go to all the places I've not been to.

7128

And what if the comment doesn't come and I'm broke at the end of it and alive?

7131

No, the comment is coming.

7132

OK, everybody agrees.

7133

OK, so that's what I'll do.

7136

I'll travel across the world.

7137

Me and my husband go to all the places we've not been to.

7142

Have the best of meals, drink champagne.

7145

At what point does your 24 month plan become your 24 hour plan?

7153

I don't know.

7154

And the final question, what's what's in your case?

7157

You're probably living this life now.

7159

But what stops you from doing it now is the way I end the series of questions.

7163

What stops you from doing it now?

7165

Work. I have to work.

7168

So does my husband. So we can't really take off.

7171

And I'm guessing you go for walks in Sundar nursery.

7174

Anyway, yeah, though not with him so often, mostly on my own.

7179

He comes very, very rarely.

7181

But yeah, you're right.

7183

Nothing is stopping me from doing it.

7186

Except I can't do it all the time.

7188

But if I had one year, then that's all I would do.

7193

Because, yeah, I was thinking about, you know, what you mentioned

7197

about how Covid sort of concentrated your mind to, you know, what was important.

7203

And there's another beautiful column where you've written about the flowers

7206

of Tokyo and you have this para where you write,

7209

I remember coming back to India and writing a column bemoaning the fact

7213

that while we have plenty of flowering trees in India,

7215

Amal Taz, Sapthaparani, Tehsu, Palash to name just a few, which are just as pretty.

7220

We don't seem to make much of them.

7222

We didn't take time off to sit in parks or simply by the side of the road

7226

to admire their beauty, stop quote.

7228

And you mentioned also that in the 24 hour scenario,

7231

when you went for a walk with your husband in the nursery,

7234

you would look at the plants and you would look at the flowers.

7236

Yeah. And I'm just thinking that what happens through life,

7240

what has certainly happened to me is that we grow much less mindful

7244

that we could be eating a meal that we really wanted to eat.

7247

But after the first couple of bites, we are lost in our own head.

7250

We're not really tasting it.

7252

You know, I'm tasting it. You're tasting it.

7254

Oh, yeah. So I see food is very important to me.

7257

Also, I come to food, but my larger question before food,

7261

is about mindfulness.

7263

That is that something that you have had to be intentional about?

7266

Because typically what happens is that everything is normalized.

7269

We are surrounded by beauty.

7271

We are surrounded by wonder.

7273

But we normalize it.

7274

And we don't really, you know, it just becomes part of the background.

7278

And at least in my case, I have to keep reminding myself that Amit, you fool,

7282

just snap out of that, you know, your internal monologue

7285

and notice all these things around you.

7287

What is your journey been towards sort of?

7290

You know, it's interesting you say that because I remember going to Venice

7295

and being blown away by the beauty.

7297

And I often I thought to myself that people who live here all the time,

7301

do they actually appreciate it that much or does it just become part

7305

of the normal scenery, you know, when you're surrounded by it all the time?

7309

Does it still seem special to you?

7311

But I find with me, it does still seem special.

7315

Like sometimes you're just driving around like I drove down to your studio.

7319

And I passed Masjid more.

7321

And then suddenly this old mosque came up out of nowhere.

7325

And it's beautiful.

7326

And it's just by the side of the road.

7328

No fanfare, no tourists, no nothing or whatever.

7331

But it's beautiful.

7332

So just driving through Delhi, if you just look up from your phone or whatever,

7337

you'll see Safdarjung storm on one side, you'll see these beautiful trees,

7341

tree lined avenues on the other.

7343

If you're walking towards Nehru Park, you'll see this beautiful,

7347

you know, greenery or whatever.

7350

I find I still appreciate that because

7353

for me, I count myself very lucky to live in this city

7357

because there are so many wonderful things that you can do for no money at all.

7361

You know, there's you don't have to spend a truckload of money to go to Lodi Garden.

7367

Anybody can go there.

7368

It's not even like Sunda nursery where you have to pay an entrance fee or whatever,

7371

which is like 40 rupees or something.

7373

But you can just go there, sit there, maybe listen to music, maybe read a book.

7377

I do that often, you know, in the winter, I just take a book along

7381

and I can sit there and just, you know, look around at the trees

7385

and listen to the birds and look at the things.

7388

And I find that if you open yourself up,

7391

there is beauty almost everywhere you look in the city.

7394

It's just that people complain so much about Delhi, you know,

7398

that traffic is like this and the people are bad and go ahead and all that.

7403

But if you really want to appreciate where you live,

7405

you just have to appreciate what is around you.

7408

Let's talk about food now, because as you said, you always sort of mindful about food

7414

and about food, my thing again is that I certainly find myself

7420

like every minute of a meal, I'm not focused on it.

7423

It might have been something I crave, something that I wanted.

7426

I might think about it in between, but 90 percent of the time

7430

I'm eating something, I'm not really thinking about it.

7432

And that is as someone who is eating food.

7436

And in your case, you've also written about food.

7440

And of course, you're with Weir, so he's writing about food all the time.

7444

That's a whole game. And does that so incredibly well.

7447

And I guess his writing about food would increase his sort of conscious

7453

appreciation of nuances, which would be missing for someone like me.

7458

Right. And equally for you, therefore, you know, there is

7462

there would be an intentionality in the kind of food that you eat, that you taste.

7467

So it's not just an exotic dish.

7469

And you're thinking about the taste, you're thinking about other stuff

7471

associated with it, you know, whether it's cultural or social

7476

or these ingredients are so great and et cetera, et cetera.

7479

Tell me a little bit about your relationship with food.

7482

Like, is this is your love for food one of the things that kind of

7486

you and Weir happen to have in common?

7488

You know, when we met, he wasn't really into food writing.

7491

Food writing game.

7492

I mean, he used to do the occasional food writing,

7495

but he didn't do like a weekly column or whatever when when he was in Sunday.

7499

In fact, he used to do food writing before he joined Sunday

7503

when he was with Imprint and he used to write for independent.

7506

Was it independent or what was that Bombay newspaper?

7510

I've forgotten the name now.

7511

There was one called independent. I don't know.

7513

Which one was the one that Vinod Mehta used to do?

7515

Independent as far as I remember.

7517

There was Indian Post also.

7518

Maybe it was Indian Post. I can't remember.

7520

So I don't think we bonded over food or anything like that

7523

because food was not that important.

7525

But when I say food is important to me, I don't mean in terms of going

7529

to expensive restaurants or eating exotic food or whatever.

7533

But it's very important to me that every meal should be a good meal.

7537

It doesn't have to be something exotic or whatever.

7540

Like I can make a very simple dal,

7544

but it has to be a right dal.

7547

Like it has to taste right.

7549

I can make a subzi.

7550

I can just make a simple khichdi or whatever at home.

7553

But every meal has to be good.

7556

Like if a meal that I eat is not good,

7559

it puts me in a bad mood for the rest of the day.

7562

I'm like that was a wasted opportunity.

7565

I could have had a good meal.

7567

So food is important to me in that sense.

7569

It's not like, you know, I want to eat, you know, something very like

7573

I have sushi or, you know, whatever, something very exotic every day.

7576

I'm very happy eating dal chawal.

7578

But that dal chawal has to be made to a certain standard

7581

and it has to be something that appeals to me, which is what I mean by food.

7585

And I can appreciate just having dal chawal with a little achar and a little papad.

7589

I'm very happy with that.

7591

I'm more happy with that than if you give me a substandard fish and chips,

7595

you know, which is soggy and, you know, whatever.

7598

So to that extent, food is important to me and I enjoy cooking.

7602

I like making food like, you know, meals.

7604

I like experimenting with food.

7607

I love watching food shows to get inspiration.

7610

Like I like watching Nigella and Jamie Oliver

7614

because they do simple, easy to make recipes.

7617

I hate watching things like MasterChef where they made food so complicated

7621

and it becomes very toxic, the kind of, you know, pressure and the tension

7626

and the stress, I think that kind of destroys your joy in food.

7630

I hate watching shows like that.

7632

It should never be competitive.

7633

Cooking is one of those beautiful things, one of the joys of life.

7639

So to that extent, I'm very conscious of food.

7641

I'm not into food in the sense that my husband is.

7644

Like Veer is into food in a far more cerebral sense.

7648

Like, you know, he wants to get into things like, you know,

7651

where ingredients come from, how they interact.

7654

And he's also interested in chefs and the various ways that cooking has evolved.

7659

He's a full geek.

7660

Yeah, he's a he's fully on.

7662

I'm not interested in that.

7663

I'm only interested in what I'm eating and what I'm eating should be good.

7666

That's like the extent of my interest in food.

7669

But that said, he doesn't get upset by bad meals as much as I do.

7674

I get really upset.

7676

So I was for a few years, I was a professional poker player

7680

and I used to spend a lot of time in Macau.

7682

I didn't know this. Yeah, yeah.

7684

It's a game of skill.

7685

It's the only game where you're not playing against a house.

7687

So for about five years, that's how I make any money.

7691

Yeah, I mean, that's why I played it.

7692

So I was professional.

7693

But I thought I'll make a few money.

7695

I didn't make a few money.

7696

I made more than I would make through writing.

7698

And then at one point, the lifestyle was just corrosive.

7700

And you gave it up.

7702

I gave it up.

7702

I used to write a column on poker for the Economic Times.

7705

And in the 42nd and last edition, the headline was why I loved and left poker.

7710

So I'll link that from the show notes.

7712

And I used to spend some time in Macau where I'd go to play some time.

7715

So once I was there with a contingent of fellow Indian players,

7719

this would have been 2014 types.

7720

And I loved the food in Macau because it's very interesting that one,

7724

of course, there is a Chinese, but it was also a Portuguese colony.

7727

So there are certain aspects of the food which are similar

7730

in some interesting ways to Goa.

7732

So there's just a lot to explore in the local food out there.

7736

And all my Indian buddies would be like Indian food chaiye, Indian food chaiye.

7741

So there was one day where we had an evening flight

7744

from Hong Kong back to Bombay and we had to go to the Macau Ferry Terminus.

7748

And there was a ferry to the airport.

7750

So we had to go to the ferry terminus in the morning at about,

7753

I think, 11, 30, 12 or whatever.

7755

And then the flight was in the evening.

7757

And this bunch of guys with me said, Indian food chaiye, Indian food chaiye.

7761

I said, boys, you know, we will be in India tonight.

7765

It is a few hours.

7766

Kindly wait till we get back.

7768

Let us grab the quickest meal we can.

7770

And eating Indian would mean going to one particular place.

7774

It would take time.

7775

But they insisted they were so homesick.

7777

And eventually we missed the flight because a ferry terminal said

7781

that to catch the five p.m. flight, you have to take the 12 o'clock ferry.

7784

Nothing after that. Some shit like that.

7786

You missed the flight. We missed the flight.

7788

But the point I'm getting at is a point that you've also pointed out

7791

in your columns with great and justified irritation,

7795

that why do so many Indians when they go out,

7797

they just want to eat Indian food instead of enjoying

7800

what is available, which is out there.

7802

And I am a little empathetic towards them because, you know, in

7807

in many areas of my own life, I don't want to experiment.

7811

Like I don't want to spend a lot of time listening to a lot of new music.

7814

For example, I have my comfort music, which I like.

7816

I'm happy with that.

7817

So I can understand if some people are like that about food.

7821

I make it a point to kind of always eat only what is,

7824

you know, locally available in a particular place.

7826

So I kind of love to geek out on that as well.

7829

But I've realized that it is an intentional act

7832

and it is an act that takes a certain amount of determination

7836

because a lot of food that we might find in some countries

7840

just don't go with our taste buds.

7842

Initially, they are strange to us.

7844

We have to almost through an act of will force ourselves to be open

7847

and say that, no, you know, let me not eat something that is familiar.

7852

Let me not go to a McDonald's or some Indian place.

7855

Let me try all of this.

7856

Is it something like that with you?

7858

Because your love for travel and food kind of, again, seem to go hand in hand.

7863

You know, I think I think you should be open to.

7867

It's not necessary that you will like everything you try.

7870

It's possible you'll hate it.

7871

But how would you know that you don't like it unless you try it?

7875

Like what I object to is people not even making the effort to try something.

7879

Like if you have the opportunity and you're lucky enough

7882

and not everybody is lucky enough to be able to travel abroad.

7885

It's a huge privilege that you're able to afford to do that.

7889

So you're going to a country like, say, Peru or say, you know, some even Paris.

7896

And if you don't want to even try something like a croque monsieur or a ceviche,

7902

maybe you will. Maybe you like it.

7904

Maybe you'll hate it.

7905

But the point is, you're not probably going to go back to that country ever again.

7909

You're probably making one trip.

7911

So why not open yourself to every possibility?

7915

There are times when I've tried things like we went to Chengdu in China

7919

and we tried actual Chinese food in Chengdu,

7922

which is very different from the Chinese food you get in the rest of India.

7928

I mean, there were some things that I hated.

7929

I mean, I would take one bite off and I just don't have the taste for it.

7934

I'm not going to eat it.

7935

Sometimes you find them a bit gelatinous.

7937

Sometimes you just don't like the taste of it.

7940

But then there are like out of the 10 things you order,

7942

there will be like three things that you really enjoy.

7944

And you probably will never ever get a chance to eat it again.

7948

So you have to open yourself up to the possibility.

7951

But I take your point about Indian food.

7953

I mean, after spending about like we went to Japan recently

7957

and initially I was very excited and we were eating Japanese food and everything.

7961

And then after like about four or five days, I started missing

7964

the hint of spice and you don't get Indian food there really.

7968

So we went and had a Chinese meal because, you know, you want that spicy hit

7972

because you're so used to it.

7974

So I take that point that, you know, people are used to a certain level of spice.

7978

And even me, like if I spend like a week or 10 days abroad,

7981

I call up home and I ask my housekeeper, I said, OK,

7985

make some khichdi for me and keep it and come and eat that

7989

or make some dal chawal for me.

7991

So the food you grow up with is the food that is your comfort food,

7995

which is something you will always miss.

7997

But if you are going abroad and if you're making the effort,

8001

you should at least understand the food culture of a place, what people eat.

8006

I'm not saying that you have to enjoy it or it has to become

8009

your favorite meal from then on.

8011

That's not the point.

8012

The point is, you you have to at least try it.

8015

And it's not just abroad.

8017

I think you can travel within the country and the diversity is so incredible.

8020

Huge. Like I did a food trip a few years back with, you know, about 10 friends of mine.

8025

We took a bus and we did a Mysore, Mangalore kind of thing.

8028

And like even within Mysore, within a two square kilometer radius,

8032

you can get like four different kinds of biryani.

8035

And there are so many different cuisines there, which are authentic to that place,

8040

which have their history from that place and have evolved simultaneously.

8044

And it's absolute madness to say that you only want a particular kind of food,

8048

that you only want to have, you know, your chicken masala or mutter paneer.

8052

Exactly.

8052

If you're, you know, but that's the problem in India,

8055

that wherever you go, you basically get chana bhaturas and dal makhani wherever you go.

8060

It's very hard to find regional food that's, you know, available anywhere.

8064

It's very hard.

8065

What are the most delightful dishes you've eaten while traveling,

8068

which have just really taken you by surprise and been like, wow, there's so many.

8073

I can't even see when you ask me questions like that, I go blank.

8078

Well, OK, recently you wrote about how much you love Bangkok in some column I wrote of yours.

8082

And that's my favorite food city in the world.

8084

I love just eating like at very ordinary, I don't know what a fancy restaurants,

8090

like very small places.

8092

I love the krapao they do.

8094

I love their curries.

8096

There's one particular place which does pork lab balls,

8100

which are like deep fried and served with cucumber slices.

8103

I love those.

8105

Bangkok, you can't eat badly.

8106

No matter where you go, the food is so good.

8109

It's so amazing.

8110

And are there any surprising dishes which have blown you like?

8113

I remember when I went to Athens last year, just walking through the streets,

8117

we were extremely tired.

8118

So we didn't really go to some fancy restaurant.

8121

We just saw some roadside place and we went in there and I ordered something

8124

something called a wheel krithiraki.

8126

And a krithiraki is a kind of pasta that looks just like rice.

8130

So if you didn't know better, you'd think it was rice.

8133

And it was just the most exquisite thing that I have had.

8137

And later on, I went to reviews of the place online

8139

and there were people saying, oh, it's the best meal I've had in Europe.

8143

And it is this and it is that.

8144

Yeah, I've never been to Athens.

8145

We just found it by accident.

8147

No, in general, I would say the food is not so mind blowing there.

8150

But this particular place, a sheer luck just chanced upon it and it was great.

8154

So those are the best kind of meals, actually.

8157

Like, you know, when we went to went to Sicily for my last birthday

8161

and we went to we were staying in Tarvina.

8164

So we went to a little village nearby.

8167

And up on the hilltop, there was this tiny little restaurant

8171

and they did the most amazing pastas for us.

8176

And they were so unexpectedly good, you know, because it's a tiny little place

8179

and you don't expect something great, but it was just so good.

8184

And that's the unexpected nature of it is what makes it so so amazing.

8188

Because if you go to a Michelin star restaurant

8190

and they give you this fancy food, OK, you're expecting it.

8193

So you're not really blown away by it as such,

8196

because that's something you feel that is part of the experience or whatever.

8200

But you go to a small little tiny little place like this time

8203

we went to Siam Paragon and one more restaurant.

8206

We ordered some Thai food and the quality was just so good that,

8211

you know, you were just blown away by it that you can just go to

8215

in a little, you know, dhaba type place basically and get good food,

8218

which is quite amazing.

8220

Yeah, remember in Bangkok in some random mall,

8223

you know, outside in a little stall,

8225

we had some sushi and I just thought that this is better

8228

than any five star sushi I've had in India, it's just mind blowing.

8231

Yeah, that's unexpectedness of something is always something that always throws you.

8237

Like sometimes you can just go and by the roadside

8240

have a really nice hot dog with a relish and it it just is just amazing.

8246

Or like a dosa at a roadside place.

8249

What's your approach to traveling?

8252

Because, you know, there is a classic distinction made between tourists

8255

and travelers, you know, tourists are just ticking boxes.

8258

Had this experience, had that experience.

8260

Travelers typically, you know, more immersive, kind of soaking it up

8265

and all of that.

8266

What's been your approach towards traveling?

8269

What are the cities you've been most surprised by and why?

8273

You know, I'm essentially a creature of habit.

8275

I like going back to the same places.

8278

That said, I'm changing a bit now, because as I told you,

8281

I feel time is running out and I should see parts of the world

8284

that I've not seen before, but there was a period in my life

8287

that no matter whenever I had time off, I would go to London

8291

because it was the one place that I really loved, either London or Bangkok.

8296

I mean, that's like one of the two favorite cities of mine in the world.

8300

But of late, I've

8303

I've discovered a new found love for Italy because

8307

I just find the place so amazing.

8309

You know, I don't really mean the bigger cities.

8311

I mean, the smaller centers, you know, just traveling around

8316

in the countryside, just stopping by, going to a little rustic place

8320

and having food or whatever.

8322

I really enjoy that.

8323

So now I try and do Italy about twice a year

8328

because I want to spend the rest of my life just exploring

8331

different parts of it.

8333

So I'm quite excited about that.

8335

But whether I'm a tourist or a traveler, I don't know.

8337

I think I'm a tourist.

8338

I don't think I'm a traveler.

8340

But I don't feel like a tourist in London or Bangkok

8343

because they are like almost like cities I know so well.

8346

Like I have my specific places where I go to.

8349

I have friends now who I meet.

8351

So it's almost like a home away from home, you know,

8354

because you spend so much time there.

8357

But yeah, in Italy, I'm definitely a tourist.

8360

You know, as as a young person,

8362

I was exposed very early on to a lot of world cinema.

8365

And one of my favorite filmmakers was Fellini.

8368

And I would watch my favorite Fellini film is Ivo Taloni,

8372

one of his young younger coming of age films.

8374

But I remember while watching Amar Kod,

8376

which I think is a film he made in 1975.

8379

And and I just thought that, hey, you know, these Italian families.

8383

And of course, I hadn't been to Italy then.

8385

And it's still one European country I haven't yet visited.

8388

But I at that time, I thought that, hey, you know,

8390

these Italian families with their exuberance and shows of emotion

8394

and all of that are just like all the Bengali families.

8398

So do you feel there's something there?

8400

100 percent. I think Italians are very like Indians.

8402

You know, they have you said they're very into family.

8405

They're very affectionate.

8407

They're very exuberant. They love food.

8410

And like, it's hard to go to a Italian's house

8413

and not being fed to bursting point, you know, like it is in India.

8416

They want to feed you or whatever.

8418

So I think there are a lot of similarities between the two of them.

8422

But the Italians are much more elegant than us.

8424

They have a certain inborn elegance, like even the poorest person

8429

will dress with such flair and, you know, amazing colors

8434

and beautiful designs and stuff.

8436

And they spend a lot of their time, you know, in Italian, there's this phrase

8440

that you have to cut a good figure, like a bella figura.

8444

You have to be like you have to present the best version of yourself to the world.

8449

So even if you don't have money or whatever, you still have to,

8452

you know, present yourself well, which I think is a fabulous concept.

8457

Indeed, it is. And it's not just about appearance.

8460

Your house has to be, you know, look nice, elegant.

8463

The food must be presented in an elegant way, which is a good way to live.

8468

Do Indian men have a problem with the way they present themselves

8471

or even with the very notion of self-love, which is implicit in this?

8475

Indian men, I don't want to say anything about Indian men.

8479

You want me to be trolled on Twitter?

8481

Twitter, people don't listen to this fourth hour of the podcast

8484

where they're going to troll you. So don't worry about it.

8488

Indian men don't dress very well, do they?

8490

They absolutely don't.

8493

You know, you probably observe this much more closely.

8495

So, yeah, but it's changing, I think.

8497

I think the younger generation is more more into looking good and,

8502

you know, wearing, see, by dressing well, I don't necessarily mean

8506

wearing designer clothes or something, but just taking a little bit

8510

of pride in the way you look, you know, it's not there.

8514

It's not ingrained in Indian men so much.

8517

And somehow Indian men also even, they wear too tight clothes, no?

8525

Part of that is really majburi.

8526

I had the great food writer Pushpesh Pant on my show.

8530

And Pushpeshji and I had the same sort of lament,

8535

which is that if you have a certain kind of potbelly at a certain age,

8539

it's very hard to find clothes that fit you.

8541

So I don't understand, OK, you have a potbelly, wear a kurta, no?

8545

It's so elegant.

8546

That's what I said to Pushpeshji, and he agreed with me

8548

that even finding a kurta that fits these days is really hard.

8551

So go to a tailor.

8552

You have to take that much effort. You should get it in ready-made.

8556

Hey, the Fab India does very good.

8558

No, no, but now even a lot of the kurta's you find are slim fit and all that.

8562

They fit my shoulder, bulge in the middle.

8564

And of course, I am on an extreme weight loss program,

8567

so I will be very dapper and well-dressed in a while.

8570

See, I don't like for instance, I don't think it's important

8573

that you have to be thin to be dressed well.

8576

There are all the styles that will look good on you.

8580

True, but Pushpeshji would disagree very vociferously with that.

8583

He's not fat, is he? He's quite thin.

8586

Well, I mean, I'm not going to comment on Pushpeshji's bulk or lack thereof.

8591

But I met him about a year ago in Calcutta.

8594

He was there at some literary festival where I saw him.

8597

We look quite thin.

8598

Ask him about pyjamas sometimes and every tailor he goes to now says,

8602

pocket kahan daalu? And he's like,

8604

pyjama mein pocket hota hai kya baat kar rahe ho?

8607

So, you know.

8609

But it's convenient to have a pocket in a pyjama, yeah?

8612

Yes, but Pushpeshji would argue that, you know,

8615

we have so many different kinds of pyjamas and, you know,

8619

Aligari pyjama, this pyjama, that pyjama, and you're all homogenizing it

8623

to in a certain way for function.

8626

And I guess this is sort of a lament that anyone who loves food

8631

may also feel that Vikram Doctor, the food writer, was on my show a long time ago.

8634

And Vikram had this lament about the Cavendish banana,

8638

which was a banana that was exported from India to the US and all that.

8642

And it's very suited to economies of scale. It lasts a long time.

8645

So there it became the dominant banana.

8647

And then they exported it back to India.

8650

And here it is replacing a lot of indigenous banana forms which are dying out

8654

because the Cavendish banana just makes life easier.

8657

Yeah, it just makes life so much easier.

8660

And the lament then was that, you know, things get homogenized in that way.

8664

Pushpeshji's lament was a similar lament about food that wherever

8668

you go to a wedding now, anywhere in India, you love the same bloody Punjabi food.

8671

That's true. All of that.

8673

That is true. I think Punjabi food has kind of taken over the whole,

8677

you know, universe. It's quite strange, actually.

8681

And Bengali food has been left behind, whereas actually Bengali food

8684

can be really good.

8686

I mean, all our local cuisines are quite...

8688

But you know, I think it's changing.

8689

Like even in London, there's this new restaurant that's opened.

8692

I think it's called Chaurangi or something, which is doing Bengali food.

8696

Then in New York, there are these there's this guy called Ronnie Mozumdar

8700

and Chintan Pandya, who started this restaurant called Thamaka.

8704

And they've started another restaurant called Sema,

8706

which does South Indian food, Tamil food.

8709

And they're not terribly expensive or anything, but really super hard to get into

8713

because they're quite small.

8715

And the food is amazing.

8716

I mean, so regional cuisine is coming up.

8719

But I think at the quality level, I think people still go

8723

with the dal makhanis and the butter chickens and all of that.

8727

And that's going to take time to be phased out because people like it.

8731

Yeah. And I'm actually OK if they're there as long as...

8735

Other things also come.

8736

Yeah, as long as the long tail is healthy,

8737

which I actually think it is getting healthier.

8739

I think it is, yeah.

8740

People are, you know, like now there are home kitchens all over the place.

8743

Like in Bombay, I order from this home kitchen, which will give,

8747

you know, Naga pork stew.

8749

And wow, what's it called?

8750

It's I'll link it from the show notes.

8752

It's called the slow food something.

8754

I forget exactly.

8755

But and then there are many home kitchens like this,

8757

which will specialize in a handful of things and do it really well.

8761

And that's great.

8762

Yeah. I mean, to get Naga pork stew in Bombay is amazing.

8766

You don't even get it in Delhi.

8767

I think. Yeah, Kerala beef chili and all that.

8769

Kerala, you get a lot of good Kerala food in Delhi.

8772

There's this Baha Belli and yeah, they do good food.

8775

Yeah. Savya Rasa does great South Indian food.

8778

And there's another the Goa Southern does good Goan food.

8781

I don't know if you tried it.

8783

There's a small restaurant.

8784

I don't know if it still exists.

8786

Can't remember what it's called.

8787

But there is a lot of then there's this place called Jamun

8790

that does in Lodi Colony Market that does good regional food as well.

8796

I think regional food is having a bit of a revival.

8799

Hopefully.

8800

So you mentioned earlier that you did not bond with Veer over food.

8805

So can I ask what what did you bond about?

8807

Like how what was the trajectory of that?

8809

If you don't mind talking about it?

8811

Yeah, I think, you know, he was my boss to begin with.

8815

So for many years, you know, it was a very we had a very collegial atmosphere

8820

in in Sunday, like there was no big hierarchy.

8823

Like everybody called Veer, Veer.

8825

It wasn't like Sir or Mr. Sanghvi or whatever.

8828

And he was pretty young for an editor.

8829

Yeah, he was he was like 31, 32 at that point.

8832

So he was pretty young, too.

8835

And I think we.

8838

We bonded over books, writing, reading,

8842

you know, that kind of thing.

8844

It wasn't a food, wasn't really a big thing because, hey,

8847

there wasn't very much food happening in Calcutta where we were.

8850

I mean, the biggest thing happened in Calcutta was the Taj opening

8855

and, you know, the restaurants over there.

8857

Otherwise, I mean, you know, Calcutta, it was basically Amber

8861

where we used to go to for kebabs and naans.

8864

And there used to be this little junkie Chinese place

8867

next to our AVP office called Chungwa where all the AVP guys used to hang out

8872

and have chop suey and hot and sour soup and stuff like that.

8876

So food, there wasn't a big food scene anyway.

8879

It was a very different Calcutta in those days.

8882

The big spot was maybe getting Armenia biryani

8885

ordered into office and eating that or something.

8889

So food wasn't a big thing.

8891

But I think we just had the same interests.

8895

I mean, we both like reading, we both like writing.

8899

We had the same sort of interests.

8902

And, you know, when you work together, you kind of form a bond.

8905

So I think that's basically what it was.

8908

It wasn't like any particular thing that bonded us together.

8912

We're just sort of working together.

8914

That becomes friendship, that becomes romance.

8916

Yeah, yeah, I think it's a progression.

8918

It's not like a coup de foudre that you suddenly turn up and you say, oh, wow,

8922

this is it. It wasn't like that.

8925

And, you know, there's a beautiful essay I post,

8927

I sort of linked to recently on Twitter by a friend of mine, Samarth Bansal,

8931

who's been a guest on the show as well.

8933

And he's in his late 20s and he talks about the whole dating game for him,

8937

you know, using these apps and kind of figuring out what one has to do,

8941

how one dances this particular dance.

8943

And the modern world is like so much more complicated and all of that.

8947

And in a sense, we are the transitional generation,

8950

you know, that we grew up on that side of the line.

8952

And now, you know, we are sort of onlookers on this side of the line.

8957

And what are your thoughts about the way this kind of world?

8961

Gosh, I wouldn't want to be young now.

8962

You don't want to be. Oh, my God, no way.

8964

There's just too much.

8965

These dating apps are horrific, man.

8968

I mean, would you want to be part of this?

8971

It sounds horrendous because it sounds horrendous to me, frankly.

8974

I mean, first of all, it's extremely transactional, isn't it?

8979

Like, I mean, there is no gradual progression at all.

8983

Like in the old days, you met somebody through a friend

8986

or you met somebody in college.

8988

And it was like a gradual process of discovering each other,

8991

getting to know each other.

8993

But it's a lot of pressure meeting somebody on a date date, like,

8997

you know, for the first time, what conversation do you have?

9001

Which which part of yourself do you project?

9004

Which part do you not?

9006

I mean, it's too much pressure. I don't want to do it.

9008

Yeah, Samarth has these lovely lines where he talks about how for men,

9012

dating today is like dying of thirst in the desert, not a drop of water in sight.

9017

And for women, it's like dying of thirst in the oceans.

9020

Water is everywhere, but it's mostly toxic and full of salt.

9023

It's a very good line.

9024

Yeah. So maybe someday I should have him back on the show to discuss that.

9030

Have you been on dating app ever?

9031

No, no, no, no.

9033

I mean, my time is gone.

9036

So let's talk about journalism, because even there,

9039

you sort of began in one era and ended up in another era entirely today.

9045

So tell me about how the world started changing,

9048

you know, from your vantage point, did it require a mental adjustment

9052

that suddenly you're in one kind of world where there's a certain way

9055

that the world works as a form that journalism takes,

9058

that there are editors and those editors have to also be mentors at the same time.

9063

There's a certain there's certain kind of journalistic values in place,

9066

so on and so forth.

9067

And then the whole game changes where today, I would argue,

9069

the mainstream is completely irrelevant.

9072

And, you know, the incentives of newsrooms have changed the way

9076

the way we consume information, the way we discover information.

9079

Everything has changed.

9081

Yeah, you're very right.

9082

In fact, when we when we started out, there were only a few legacy

9087

you know, newspapers and magazines in the market.

9090

So in a sense, today we have far more democratization of the news space

9096

because you don't need those huge resources to come into the news space.

9101

You can still come in with maybe a YouTube channel or you can come in.

9105

So in some ways, I think it's a positive thing because more people have a voice.

9110

So you have a multiplicity of viewpoints that are coming into the mainstream.

9115

When I started off in journalism, there was what?

9118

In Calcutta, there was the Statesman and the Telegraph.

9121

In Delhi, it was Times of India and Hindustan Times.

9124

In the south, it was Hindu.

9126

Bombay was basically Times of India.

9128

Hindustan Times didn't exist in Bombay in those days.

9131

And magazines, there was Sunday, India Today and maybe The Week.

9134

But Week wasn't really that popular or anything.

9138

So I think the kind of choices that we have today

9141

in terms of what media you want to consume are certainly much larger.

9148

I'm not sure that they're much better as a consequence,

9150

because you have to be far more discerning about what you want to consume.

9155

Like, for instance, I have just stopped watching news TV

9158

because I feel that it's a complete waste of time.

9161

I don't learn anything from it.

9163

There was a time when I used to watch a bit of NDTV

9166

just to get a sense of what was happening in the country.

9169

But now I find you don't even get news stories any longer.

9172

It's just basically debate shows.

9173

It's like a talk radio with four people on the screen.

9178

It's narrative battles.

9179

You can kind of predict what everyone is going to say.

9181

So I think you just have to choose what you want to do,

9184

because there's enough new digital voices coming up

9187

that are actually doing much fresher and much more honest journalism,

9192

because they can afford to do it.

9194

And two, there are not the pressures that legacy media has

9198

with legacy media.

9199

You really have to be careful what they say and what you don't say,

9202

which is quite sad in a sense.

9205

But with digital voices like the wire or print, even, I think they get to do.

9210

So in some ways, I think I don't think we should knock the fact

9215

that more people are in the marketplace.

9216

I think it's good that there are more people in the media, media scrum.

9220

And it's healthy in a way that people are getting a choice to do this.

9225

And certainly, Hindi journalism has really gone

9230

the much, much better than it was before in terms of reach

9235

and in terms of, you know, what it used to be.

9238

So I find it quite hopeful in a sense than what it used to be.

9243

No, I mean, we would not be sitting here and talking

9246

if this change hadn't happened, because, you know, if I were to pitch my show

9250

to any conventional mainstream outlet 20 years ago, they would have laughed me

9253

out of the room that what, you want to talk to someone for many hours?

9255

Are you crazy?

9256

And a lot of creators who are doing well today, if not literally,

9260

all of them would never get past a gatekeeper.

9263

What has also happened, though, is that in the 80s and the 90s,

9267

there was a consensus on truth, a broad consensus, right?

9271

You know, Sunday and India Today and Frontline may cover things a little separately.

9275

And you know what the tilts were.

9276

But you would broadly know that they're all relatively solid.

9280

And, you know, there might be a difference in the viewpoint, but facts are facts.

9283

And there is some fidelity to the truth.

9286

Today, I think that that trust has vanished.

9289

The mainstream has kind of dissipated.

9292

And I think what that's also done is that the role

9296

that curators used to play in that time, the role that perhaps people like

9300

we used to play in that time, that no longer exists almost.

9304

The search for truth has been replaced by narrative battles.

9308

And I often wonder then that old school journalists like you guys,

9312

you know, how do you sort of reconcile with that?

9315

Because at one level, like you said, it's great that anybody can get into the game

9319

and, you know, do things.

9320

And that gives you guys an opportunity also to do interesting things and to experiment.

9326

But at the same time, the sort of position that you had,

9331

you know, on big fish in a small pond, in a sense, to use a very crude metaphor.

9335

I can't really find a good one for this.

9337

That's not exactly what I mean, but you know what I mean.

9339

Yeah, I know.

9340

You know, and that's that's kind of changed.

9342

And I'm just wondering that then at a human level, how does one come to terms with that?

9347

That earlier there were just a few voices and you were one of those voices.

9351

And it was largely collegial and other people might criticize you once in a while.

9355

But today, on social media, especially, it's a free for all.

9359

Suddenly, you can get 2000 retweets blasting you

9363

for a misinterpretation of a word you might have used.

9366

Right. And the world changes in that way.

9368

And I would imagine that it can move people in different directions.

9372

That one, you get angry and ossified and you're like in my times.

9376

And, you know, like you pointed out, you have this lovely sort of acronym,

9379

RW, remember when, right?

9381

And you could get into that kind of mode or you can embrace this new world

9386

with a certain kind of humility and say that it's great.

9388

I love this young energy.

9389

I'm going to use some of it myself.

9391

You know, so, you know, I think when you talk about legacy

9395

media and new new voices emerging,

9399

I find even on the new platforms, the legacy media voices are still the strongest.

9404

Like Shekhar Gupta will still have more people following him

9408

and Ravish will have more people following him than, say, the younger,

9412

younger lot of people, which is a consequence of the following

9416

that they've built up over the years.

9418

Now, maybe with demographic changes that may change 10 years down the line.

9422

But I think the stronger voices on media are still the old voices.

9428

You know, I don't see very many very strong voices emerging,

9431

unless you have some examples, I can't think of any.

9435

No, you're right. And Shekhar Gupta also has gotten there

9439

by having the humility to say that I can't achieve what I achieved then in that form.

9444

So I will do something different.

9445

I will do a YouTube show and I will try this new thing.

9448

So he's doing something different.

9450

But I think it is possible to shift your following from one set of media to to the other.

9456

I think it is possible.

9458

But you have to be a little nimble and a little agile to be able to do it.

9462

And I think not very many legacy media types have that agility to do it like Shekhar does.

9468

He's managed to make that transition.

9469

He's built up a huge following in this in this new thing.

9473

So I think it's possible to do that.

9475

And I think, you know, at the end of the day,

9478

it doesn't pay to be snobbish and elitist and say that,

9482

you know, because I have one hundred thousand followers, I am bigger than you.

9486

It doesn't work like that.

9487

I mean, everybody's voice is important.

9491

That said, if somebody is rude and obnoxious, then that's not the point.

9497

But having a debate with people, I'm all all for it.

9501

Like a lot of people like, you know, I would count myself as a liberal.

9506

A lot of liberals like me who will not, for instance,

9508

follow a single right wing handle because they just don't want to engage with that,

9513

which which I find is silly because you have to engage with people.

9517

If you're a journalist, especially, you can't be in this little liberal elite

9522

echo chamber and just listen and talk to the people who think exactly the way you do.

9527

You may have your views and you may have your principles or whatever,

9531

but there's no harm in just opening yourself up

9534

and listening to what the other person has to say,

9536

as long as they're not abusive and they're not trolling you or whatever.

9540

So I am actually quite happy with the fact that the media has opened up

9545

because I find that legacy media is a little bit stultified now.

9549

It's a little bit old school or whatever.

9553

It hasn't made that transition to this new era where people's attention spans are shorter.

9560

You have to appeal to them in a certain way.

9562

You can't really.

9563

Like, I don't know very many young people who read newspapers any longer.

9567

The only way they would read newspapers is if, for instance,

9571

they see a link on Twitter or on Instagram or something and they'll read it.

9575

But newspapers haven't made that transition.

9578

So they think that you have to subscribe to the entire newspaper to read it.

9582

Not many people want to do that.

9585

So why not make it possible for them to pay something and read one piece?

9589

Or, you know, they have to make that little bit of a mind shift,

9594

you know, to be able to access the younger readership,

9597

because I find that newspapers are really dying out

9600

because the younger generation is really not interested in reading newspapers.

9604

Magazines, I think, are dead anyway.

9607

Yeah, I think for a moment I'm going to feel good because you have almost,

9610

you know, used the term younger generation for me because I haven't read.

9614

I stopped subscribing to newspapers when Covid started,

9617

because at that time the people weren't delivering.

9619

And then I realized I don't want to continue.

9621

It was just inertia.

9622

Well, we still get it.

9623

But I don't read them. We read them because he's old school.

9627

So he reads all of them.

9629

He gets like five or six newspapers.

9631

But like I find I do most of my reading on my phone now.

9635

I read. I like to think that I'm living in a parallel universe

9639

because I read the NYT and Washington Post and London Times

9643

and Telegraph in the Morning while he's reading Hindustan Times.

9646

And I'm kind of thinking aloud at what happens with that form

9650

of how you consume news also can change the person that you are.

9655

And, you know, and in the case of you and we,

9658

you've had that whole rounded experience, you've seen everything.

9660

It doesn't matter in the case of a young person.

9662

And it can matter in the sense that a 15 year old kid today

9666

can begin his consumption of, say, YouTube

9670

when somebody sends him this crazy right wing video and he watches that.

9674

And then the algorithm takes over.

9675

And then he's only fed that.

9677

Then he's only fed that.

9678

Like I once did this experiment where I wanted to understand the ultra right wing.

9683

The guys who think, you know, Modi and Adityanath are letting them down.

9686

Those kinds of sort of really hardcore.

9688

Yeah. And just try and understand that what's going on there.

9691

So I didn't want my regular YouTube algorithm to get messed up.

9695

So I opened incognito window, new Gmail account.

9698

And so I now have two YouTubes.

9700

Oh, wow. And the thing is that there is no overlap between these YouTubes.

9704

These are completely different worlds.

9706

And the world that I get on that other YouTube that I opened for myself,

9710

which a 15 year old kid may get, and that that may be the only world

9714

he absolutely knows, right, where you you become a slave to the algorithm

9720

without even realizing it.

9721

While the the benefit of having a newspaper is that a newspaper

9727

and most of our newspapers still will have a diversity of news

9730

and a diversity of views.

9732

And you'll be able to see different parts of the world in them.

9735

And also, there will be at least a pretence at impartiality.

9740

Whereas YouTube is very much one side or the other.

9743

But, you know, a lot of young people like my niece's husband

9746

the other day sent me a link that of a video of Dhruv Rati,

9750

who is apparently very, very popular, you know,

9754

doing something on Manipur or, you know, whatever, whatever.

9757

So a lot of people are getting their political information really

9761

from these videos rather than from television even.

9764

You know, I think television viewership has also gone down

9767

because people are tired of this format of constant shouting

9771

and screaming at each other.

9772

People have kind of moved away to digital media,

9775

which is actually a huge opportunity, you know, for somebody to do something

9779

really good with it.

9781

It's a huge opportunity.

9782

And like I haven't watched news television in some 10, 12 years.

9785

Yeah, and my sense of YouTube is that I am glad that,

9789

you know, the means of production are available to anyone.

9792

Like I started a YouTube podcast recently with a friend of mine.

9795

Episode five releases tomorrow after we kind of record this.

9799

Though I find that there at the present moment, the way the ecosystem is,

9804

is that you'll either go down a particular

9807

direction and be part of the right wing algorithm or this whatever,

9811

or you are functioning at a really shallow level.

9813

And, you know, and Shekhar Gupta is, of course, an exception there.

9816

And I'm glad that he kind of does.

9817

But even Barkha's Mojo does well.

9820

Barkha's Mojo does an amazing job.

9822

More power to her for saying that I don't need television.

9825

I can do YouTube. Yeah, that's that's huge.

9826

You know, I mean, Suza does a great job as well.

9829

I haven't seen. I must watch her.

9831

I must. I haven't seen her.

9832

She's she's got her own channel, is it?

9835

I think so.

9836

Last I checked and certainly on Instagram, she's active and stuff like that.

9839

I must invite her to the show.

9841

Yeah, she's she's I saw the stand up she did.

9843

I thought she was very good.

9845

Yeah. Did you see the stand up?

9846

No, I missed it.

9847

She did a stand up because she wanted to challenge herself.

9850

It was really fun.

9851

It's fantastic. Yeah.

9852

Are you ever going to do a stand up? No way.

9854

What is some secret daydream you still have?

9858

Secret daydream. Gosh, nothing really.

9862

No. What's your daydream?

9864

My daydream.

9865

I have actually tried to make myself consciously stop daydreaming.

9869

But I just like for the longest time, I wanted to write books

9874

and not had the discipline to be able to do that.

9876

And it's not even a daydream.

9878

It's it's a legit sort of aspiration that I want to.

9882

So you write it?

9883

I'm trying to, but it's you know, the thing is that people look at me

9887

from a distance and they say,

9888

huh, every Monday, his scene unseen comes out.

9891

And now every Friday, YouTube show comes out.

9894

He must be so disciplined.

9895

He teaches a writing course.

9896

But actually, those are weekly deadlines. I do them.

9899

But the things I really, really want to do deep inside,

9902

there are no deadlines, there's nothing push external like that.

9905

And I find it incredibly hard to sort of internally be able

9909

to push myself to do that, which is where.

9911

So write a contract, sign a contract with someone.

9914

No, no, I have publisher and all that.

9916

The brilliant Kartika Ji from West London, she has said will publish.

9920

She said yes to every book idea I have given her.

9922

But now you have to write it.

9924

Now I have to write it.

9925

So you set a time for it.

9928

I've done all those tricks.

9929

You know, in my writing course,

9930

actually, my fourth webinar is entirely about process, discipline, habits.

9934

But you can't do it yourself.

9935

Yeah. And I'm mentally thinking when I teach that class,

9937

that, you know, do as I say, don't do as I do.

9940

But, you know, there are periods when when your creativity is just fallow.

9943

Like there are times when you feel like the words are not coming

9948

or the ideas are not clicking.

9950

You just have to give yourself a break and then go back to it.

9953

Tell me about yourself.

9954

Tell me about, you know, you've written you had written a book in 2007.

9959

Women on top.

9959

Yeah, that was nonfiction.

9961

That was nonfiction.

9962

But now you've written these two fiction exciting novels.

9965

So I quite enjoyed doing that, actually.

9967

The first one I did, Racecourse wrote that, to be honest, was not my idea.

9972

That was David Davida's idea.

9973

He called me and asked to meet me.

9976

So I went and saw him.

9979

We met at the Hyatt and we had this discussion and he said he wanted me.

9983

He had two ideas, which is that he wanted me to do

9987

a kind of novel set in Delhi, you know, high society and, you know, that kind of thing,

9992

which frankly didn't appeal to me that much because it seems very cliched, you know,

9996

that same old high society nonsense.

9999

I can't do that.

10000

And then he said the other thing is you do something set in the world of politics,

10003

which was exciting for me because, you know, there are so many things

10008

that you have information that you've gathered over the years,

10011

which you've not really used.

10012

And it's just floating around in your mind somewhere.

10014

And you feel that you can put it in a novel.

10017

And so I said I'd do that.

10019

And then I signed this with him.

10021

And then I thought, if I'm going to do a political novel,

10025

I can't just do it as a normal, you know, politics and politicking and all.

10031

I want to make it more like a suspense thriller kind of thing.

10034

So I decided to start it with the prime minister being assassinated.

10038

So then the assassination becomes a plot point that you're trying to solve.

10042

So it becomes almost like a murder mystery.

10045

So the politics is almost incidental.

10047

It's not like the main.

10048

It's just the milieu in which this thing happens.

10052

And I really enjoyed writing that book because I could draw on my memories

10057

and my experiences of political reporting and put it in.

10061

And I put in things like a general election.

10064

So I could put in things of rallies and, you know, all the stuff that I had done.

10068

And I really enjoyed that book.

10069

Then after I had done that, I decided to do a sequel

10072

because I'd left it hanging in the middle.

10075

And for this one, I went with Penguin rather than Aleph.

10078

So I changed publishers and I wanted to do a very different style of book.

10083

I mean, that was like a more character driven and more cerebral novelist.

10089

And I wanted to do a proper page turner this time.

10092

So that was fun to do because you're doing something a little different.

10095

The genre is a little different.

10097

Otherwise, you get stuck in that, you know,

10099

rut of writing the same novel over and over again.

10102

So I enjoyed doing that.

10104

And now I'm writing a spy novel, which I'm really excited about

10107

because I'm bringing back all the memories of when I was interviewed by Raw.

10115

And all the stuff that could have been I'm writing about in my book now.

10120

So that's great fun.

10121

I'm actually now that, you know, you planted that thought in my head.

10124

I'm wondering if you did join Raw at that point and you're still playing that game.

10128

Your latest assignment, infiltrate the scene in the unseen.

10131

Yeah, absolutely.

10132

Get us to open, Varma.

10135

Tell me about the discipline, because this is not really a trivial task

10140

to write a couple of books like this and, you know, to slightly change the tone

10144

and the voice and all of that, as you did.

10146

And you mentioned that Covid helped you write, Madam Prime Minister.

10149

Yeah. But, you know, it's it's actually the hardest thing I've ever done.

10153

Because journalism is easy in a sense.

10157

And columns are easy because there's a certain subject.

10160

You have the information, you just put it together and, you know, you you can do it.

10165

But fiction means you actually generating the ideas in your imagination.

10170

It's not something you're picking up from real life and just putting in a book or whatever.

10175

And plus, you have to have character development.

10178

You have to find a voice for every different character.

10180

They can't sound alike.

10182

They should speak differently.

10184

The voice patterns have to change.

10186

So it is tough, but I just find it easy.

10189

The way I do it is that I have the basic outline in mind what what story is going to be.

10196

I have a basic breakup of chapters.

10198

This is what happens in chapter one, two, three.

10201

I mean, obviously, things change in the middle.

10202

It's not like set in stone or anything.

10206

And I find that once I have that essential scaffolding in place,

10209

then I can say, OK, like first chapter, I'm going to spend like two weeks just working on it.

10215

And I find that helps me because then I'm not thinking of the whole book.

10219

I'm just thinking I have to do these five thousand words in two weeks, which is a doable task.

10225

So if I were to start thinking that I have to write a hundred thousand words for the book,

10230

I would be overwhelmed.

10232

But as long as I'm just thinking about doing that one chapter, I can cope.

10236

And then when I'm done with that, then I can move on and do the next five thousand words.

10240

And I can work like that.

10241

But if I were to try and do it at one go and not break it up, I would find it very tough.

10248

So my friend Ajay Shah sometimes repeatedly, in fact, talks about how Tolstoy would write his books.

10253

And he says that, you know, when Tolstoy wrote War and Peace,

10256

his family reported that he was there, but he was not present.

10259

He was walking around the house all day, lost in the world of the book.

10262

And sometimes he would be weeping and sometimes he would be laughing.

10265

But he's lost in the world of the book.

10272

I have a thing.

10273

I don't spend more than three hours or four hours writing in a day,

10278

because beyond that, I can't really concentrate.

10284

My target is to do about 750 to a thousand words.

10287

But sometimes even if I do 500, that's fine.

10290

It's okay.

10291

But I write during the afternoon when like there's nobody around.

10295

There's like, so I would write from, say, maybe two to six or three to seven or whatever.

10302

And beyond that, my brain doesn't function.

10304

I can't do more than that.

10306

But I think if you do that much every day, you're fine.

10309

I don't think you need to do more.

10310

Why the afternoon?

10311

A lot of writers say they like to write first thing in the morning when they are fresh.

10314

I'm not a morning person.

10316

I'm really not a morning person.

10317

You've written a great column also about owls versus larks.

10321

And I'm an owl like you.

10323

And the world just treats us so badly.

10325

It's like they pass moral judgment for waking up late.

10327

I know.

10328

It's ridiculous.

10329

That's our psychodian rhythm.

10331

Yeah, the other day I was staying over at a friend's house and I asked him,

10334

hey, what time do you wake up?

10335

And he said, I wake up late.

10336

And I was like damn relieved.

10337

And then he said, I'll wake up by 730.

10340

And I'm like, boss, boss.

10343

Not happening.

10344

Yeah, it's cruelty.

10346

June Didion once said, I don't know what I think until I write it down.

10350

And I did a great episode with Amitav Kumar where he was raving about the habit of journaling.

10359

And since then, I have come to recommend it to all my writing students.

10363

Many of them have done it to great benefit.

10365

And the idea simply being that every time that you sit down and write,

10372

it deepens your engagement with the world because you're thinking about the world and so on.

10375

But in a sense, you're also shaping yourself

10378

every time you kind of sit down and write.

10380

And you've done really different kinds of writing in the sense that you have your columns.

10386

And for your columns, I'm guessing you have a weekly deadline.

10388

And I'm guessing if Thursday is the deadline, by Tuesday, your mind is ticking over.

10393

You kind of shortlist what you're going to write about and you write it.

10396

You've had a rich life as a reporter, as an editor.

10399

Now these two books, you know, to what extent do you feel that,

10404

you know, writing has helped shape you or understand yourself better?

10407

Did these two books play a part in that? What was it like?

10411

I don't know if it's shaped me. I wouldn't say that, no.

10417

I think they were books that I really needed to write because I wanted to

10425

use all that information that I had inside me, which I hadn't.

10429

You know, there's so many things you pick up in politics,

10431

which you can't really write about because it's at the level of gossip.

10434

You can't really do it because of libel laws or whatever,

10437

but you can always put it in a book and write it up as fiction.

10440

So I think they were like books that I really wanted to write to get that out of it.

10447

But I don't think that they've shaped me in any sense.

10450

I think my column has probably shaped me more than the fiction,

10454

because the column I've been doing for like 20 years now.

10457

So it's been a long time and it's kind of evolved.

10462

It's had, you know, the voice has evolved as I've grown older.

10467

So I think the column is far more something that's shaped me than the book.

10472

It's often deliciously introspective, but also with such a casual tone

10476

that is very easy to relate to it. It's not ponderous.

10480

Parumita Vohra uses this great term, men with beards, ponderous people giving gyan on the world.

10486

And she doesn't mean it literally, so if Veer is listening to this,

10490

I don't think you're meant by this.

10492

Your writing is like really friendly and accessible.

10495

But at the same time, I sort of disagree about the superficial candor.

10499

I feel that there's...

10500

It's more than superficial.

10502

I find a lot of depth in it.

10503

I've cited the columns that I really liked about photographs and about various other,

10508

you know, even an Instagram post.

10509

I think there was one Instagram post where you posted a picture of your mom

10514

and your grandmom or something.

10516

And, you know, even little touches like that can really be evocative.

10522

I was struck by the fact that you said when you were thinking about your first book,

10525

you know, David said that, hey, you know, one option is South Delhi and,

10528

you know, whatever the milu that you're in and all of that.

10531

And you said, na, na, ghisapita, like, why should I write about that?

10534

And in this lovely column you wrote recently, you spoke about this

10538

surprisingly restrained wedding you attended, you know,

10542

where there wasn't so much shosha, there weren't celebrities for the sake of it.

10545

The bride's mom was greeting everyone while they came and while they went.

10549

And just in that contrast itself, by talking about the contrast,

10554

you were also implicitly painting a picture of a certain kind of wedding

10560

and a certain kind of world.

10561

And, you know, Shriyana Bhattacharya in her book Desperately Seeking,

10565

Shah Rukh wrote really eloquently about it.

10566

And in her episode with me, she spoke about it.

10568

She has this memorable phrase about how so much of the dating game,

10573

and I think this is very much in a South Delhi context,

10575

involves men with unwarranted self-confidence and women with unwarranted self-doubt.

10580

Oh my God.

10581

And, you know, that also strikes me as just being, I can't speak for South Delhi,

10587

but certainly in South Bombay, you know, one can see those kind of vibes

10591

and so on and so forth.

10593

And while you are very much a part of this world of the English-speaking elites,

10598

Lutyens Delhi, as it were, you know, the Khan Market liberals.

10600

Yeah, the Khan Market gang, yeah.

10602

But at the same time, in your work, especially in your early political reporting with Sunday,

10607

where you've gone around the country with different politicians

10611

and gone to their constituencies with them, travelled with them, etc., etc.

10615

And at the same time, you've also then come to Bombay and covered the film world,

10619

not just, you know, the glamour, etc., etc.,

10622

but also behind the scenes and the frustrations and all of that.

10626

So you've seen all those different Indias,

10628

which typically would be unseen for a lot of people from, you know,

10633

who belong to the Lutyens elite, as it were.

10636

So what part do you think has that played in the way that you think about the world?

10642

And when you look at people around you who may not have had

10645

perhaps a good fortune of that kind of exposure,

10647

do you feel that there are layers that you see that they don't see

10650

and that they would be better off seeing it, perhaps?

10653

You know, I think what happens when...

10658

I think it's also a consequence of being a journalist

10660

that you're exposed to so many different people.

10663

Like when you're young, you meet famous people or whatever.

10667

In a sense, you lose that sense of awe, you know,

10670

that sense of awe that people have about celebrities,

10674

that they are very famous, they do this and that.

10677

A lot of people have that sense of awe.

10679

But when you see them up close and you interview them or whatever,

10683

you realize that they're just people like you and me, you know,

10686

that sense of looking up to people or idolizing people

10690

or being in awe of people that just goes away.

10692

I think that's one of the biggest advantages that you have as a journalist,

10697

that, you know, you've seen people up close

10699

and you've seen them maybe at their worst and, you know, whatever.

10703

So you kind of are... or whatever.

10706

And that kind of gives you a certain degree of...

10712

I don't know whether I should call it confidence or security

10715

or whatever you want to call it,

10717

but I really don't understand how people get so insecure

10722

about wanting to drive the right car, for instance,

10725

or wanting, you know, like you drive into a Taj,

10728

you have to be seen getting out of a Mercedes.

10731

I don't understand that.

10733

How does it matter what car you drive?

10735

But there are people who are obsessed with it

10738

in this Lachhan's Delhi world, maybe even in South Bombay.

10742

I mean, I'm not that familiar with South Bombay.

10744

I'm sure it's the same.

10745

There are people who get obsessed with what your address is, you know,

10749

that they will want to stay in like the right part of town

10753

and not be seen as coming from the wrong side of the tracks or whatever.

10759

I really don't get that, you know, because...

10761

And to be honest with you, though people say this about Delhi,

10764

that people are very status conscious and people are very...

10768

I moved to Delhi when I was about 29 or so,

10771

when I joined The Telegraph, I moved to Delhi to live here.

10776

I used to live in a Basati.

10778

I used to drive a Mercedes.

10781

Sorry, not a Mercedes, a Maruti.

10783

I used to drive a Maruti.

10785

And I never felt that anybody was looking down on me.

10789

I met the richest people in the world.

10791

I would interview them.

10793

I would meet them.

10794

Some of them became friends.

10795

Some of them are still my friends.

10797

And I never felt the sense that they were looking down on me

10800

because I earn much less than them

10802

or because I lived in a small, you know, but I never felt that.

10807

So I think half of it is also self kind of, you know, propelled

10812

that you feel the sense of inferiority.

10814

It's not that other people are making

10816

because nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission.

10820

It has to be something that comes from within you.

10823

And I think as long as you have that sense of self

10827

and you're secure in that sense of self,

10831

it doesn't really matter whether you live in Lachhan's Delhi

10833

or whether you live in Noida or whether you live in Gurgaon.

10836

I don't think these things matter.

10838

But people do kind of talk like that.

10842

So I don't know what to say.

10844

You mentioned, you know, driving.

10846

Everybody wants to drive a particular kind of car and blah, blah, blah.

10848

And you've also written a great column about how there was a celebrity chef

10852

and he was wearing a particular kind of sneaker and you looked at his staff

10856

and they're all wearing that particular kind of sneaker,

10858

perhaps without realizing it, just different colors.

10861

And I was reminded of this concept.

10863

I've been really taken by as a frame to understand people over the last year.

10868

Luke Burgess, who's been on my show recently,

10870

he'd written this great book called Wanting,

10872

where he spoke about Rene Girard's concept of mimetic desire.

10876

Rene Girard was a philosopher of the last century

10879

who was asked to teach a course on literature,

10882

which was not his core subject, but he needed the money.

10884

So he said, OK.

10885

So he goes through this reading list of great books

10888

and he comes to the conclusion that in all of them,

10890

the main character wants something because somebody else wants it.

10894

So it is what he calls a mimetic desire from which, you know,

10897

Burgess introduced me to the frame of thick and thin desires,

10900

where a thin desire is a mimetic desire.

10902

You want it because somebody else wants it.

10904

So it could be, hey, I want to drive a Mercedes.

10906

Or, you know, if you're a young woman in India,

10911

it might be I want to get married and have kids.

10913

Not because you intrinsically do, but that's what is expected of you.

10916

And those are thin desires.

10918

They're often mimetic.

10919

We don't realize it.

10920

And they can be intense.

10921

That they're thin doesn't mean that they're not intense.

10924

They can be intense.

10925

You might think that's the only thing you want.

10926

Your life depends on that.

10928

And then there are thick desires, which are intrinsic to you,

10932

which have nothing to do with mimesis or copying others.

10936

In your case, I imagine that walking in Sundar nursery,

10940

walking among nature, looking at flowers,

10943

is a manifestation of a thick desire, if not a thick desire in itself,

10946

a desire for a particular vibe or a particular way of being.

10949

And thin desires are all of these people wanting fancy cars,

10953

wanting a particular kind of life and all of that.

10956

And when I look back on my life and I realized that many of the things I wanted,

10962

I wanted them for the wrong reasons.

10964

And for example, even the desire to write.

10969

I was chatting about this with Nilanjana Roy,

10971

who did an episode here exactly a year ago.

10973

And even the desire to write can have both thin and thick aspects to it,

10977

where the thin aspect can be that I want validation.

10982

I want to write a bestseller.

10983

I want to win the Booker Prize.

10984

I want to do this.

10984

I want to do that.

10986

Whereas the thicker desire could just be that I like writing.

10989

I like telling stories.

10990

I like getting into the head of a character or creating a universe.

10996

And I'm wondering if you could reflect back on your life, for example.

11001

Were there thin desires that when you look back, you're like,

11003

hey, why did I ever want that?

11005

And over time, has your becoming better acquainted with yourself?

11010

And as you correctly said at the start of the show,

11011

we can never truly know ourselves.

11013

But has that process of being better acquainted with yourself

11016

also helped you understand what are your thick desires

11019

that maybe during COVID, you said you realized some of that

11023

because all the extrinsic stuff went away?

11027

I think writing would be a thick desire, definitely.

11032

You know, it's a strange conundrum, actually, because

11036

when I think about it, I love the concept of writing a book.

11040

But when I actually get down to doing it,

11042

oh my God, I struggle.

11044

I really struggle.

11046

But the thought of giving it up would make me unhappier.

11050

But it's not like the act of writing is a great joy for me

because it's not.

It's tough.

I struggle with it.

It doesn't come that easily.

11062

Writing a column comes easily.

11064

I can finish it in an hour and a half or whatever.

11067

I'm done.

11068

But writing a book is really tough for me.

11071

I really have to work at it.

11073

I have to kind of motivate myself to keep doing it or whatever.

11077

But it's something that I really, really want to do,

11080

even though it's not terribly enjoyable in the moment.

11083

But once I've done it,

11085

then the sense of satisfaction I get from that

11088

is far greater than I get from writing a column.

11091

So it's a little bit more complicated

11094

than just my feeling joy in writing.

11097

I don't feel joy in writing.

11099

I feel joy having written.

11101

It only comes afterwards.

11102

It's the same for all writers, which is bloody difficult.

11106

I find it tough.

11107

There are a lot of people who just…

11110

Someone like Shashi Tharoor, I don't know how he does it.

11112

He writes these humongous books

11115

while doing so much other stuff.

11117

I mean, he really enjoys writing.

11120

I don't think I could do that.

11122

I don't have that prolific thing that he does.

11127

Maybe he's cloned himself.

11128

Or maybe he's from the future.

11130

It's somewhere in a shed in his house.

11131

There are like four Shashi Tharoors, two are writing books.

11134

One is doing speeches.

11136

One is just learning new words from Aditya Zora.

11139

I don't want to make fun of the guy.

11140

He's a lovely man.

11141

He's come on the show.

11142

He's been on your show.

11143

He's good fun.

11144

He's very good fun.

11146

One of my favorite quotes is by Annie Dillard.

11149

And she says,

11150

How we spend our days is how we spend our lives.

11154

And that to me is a profound truth.

11156

Because often what happens is

11157

we will spend our day doing one thing.

11159

And in the grand narrative in our heads,

11162

our lives are something else.

11164

But the truth is that ultimately

11165

how we spend our days is how we spend our lives.

11167

It really boils down to our everyday habits and all of that.

11172

So I want to ask you about

11173

how you spend your days these days.

11174

Apart from today where you've been really kind enough

11176

to do what you say is your first podcast.

11180

It's an outlier event in your life.

11182

Thank you so much for that.

11183

But apart from that,

11185

how do you spend your days

11187

and is there something you would like to change about that?

11190

You know, my days are not...

11192

I mean, one varies a lot from the other.

11195

I spend a lot of time reading

11198

because I find that, you know, like at the moment

11201

I'm not writing my book

11203

because I'm going through this fallow phase.

11205

So I'm trying to inspire myself by reading.

11208

Because I find if I read good books

11210

then I feel inspired to go back to my own.

11213

So I spend a lot of time reading.

11215

So as I said, I'm a late riser.

11218

And my mornings are basically for

11221

what I call my media mornings.

11223

I do all my newspaper reading

11225

all on the phone, not physical newspapers or whatever.

11229

My evenings are like the time

11230

that I spend time in the kitchen.

11232

I don't really do much cooking in the afternoon.

11235

I like spending time cooking in the evening.

11237

Maybe something very simple or, you know,

11241

nothing very complicated,

11242

maybe a pasta or a dal or whatever.

11246

I like making dinner for ourselves.

11249

Because we travel so much when we are in Delhi,

11251

we like to eat at home.

11253

So I don't mind going out for lunch,

11255

but dinner I like to have at home

11257

because I like that sense of

11259

sitting down at the end of the day

11260

and having a meal together.

11263

And I watch a lot of streaming services as well

11267

after dinner.

11268

And my writing, as I told you,

11270

happens in the afternoon,

11272

which is when I do most of my work

11274

because, you know, then everybody's gone off

11277

to do their own things.

11278

And so I'm alone at home.

11281

There's no distraction.

11283

Almost like your mother's two to four.

11284

Yes, actually, yeah, quite it is.

11287

So I have that little bit of dead time

11289

in the afternoon,

11290

so which is when I can concentrate

11292

and do my own thing.

11294

I can't do this thing that people do like,

11296

you know, I'm going to take two months off

11297

and write a book and just write the book.

11299

I can't do that.

11300

It has to be part of my everyday experience.

11305

Tell me about friendships.

11306

Like you've pointed out that

11308

in one of the advantages of Loretto

11310

being a girls' college

11311

and therefore the male gaze being absent,

11313

you don't have to project yourselves

11314

in a particular way for boys.

11316

That particular anxiety is missing.

11318

And that also was, you know,

11320

fertile ground for the development

11321

of deep friendships.

11322

And what I've also noticed is that

11324

female friendships tend to inhabit

11327

a deeper, more intimate space

11329

than male friendships do.

11330

Male friendships are more at a surface level

11332

and typically you'll talk Bollywood,

11334

you'll talk cricket, you'll do whatever.

11336

But it can sometimes be superficial,

11339

you know, unless you intentionally,

11340

like I do, try to make it

11341

a little more than that.

11343

But female friendships,

11345

a sisterhood as it were,

11346

can be deep, can sustain you

11348

for a long time.

11349

You've also got a great column on friendships

11351

where you talk about casual friends,

11353

lunch friends, dinner friends,

11354

and you've got all these categories.

11357

Presume all your friends

11358

after reading that column

11359

must have been like,

11360

Seema, you didn't invite me for dinner.

11362

I am not in that esteemed category.

11364

But tell me a bit about

11366

the friendships in your life.

11367

What they mean to you?

11368

Do you make an effort to keep them going?

11369

You know, I have a lot of female friends.

11373

I'm basically a girl's girl.

11375

I don't have that many male friends.

11377

I bond more with women than I do with men.

11381

And so from my school days,

11384

actually, I was telling you about

11385

this neighbor of mine

11386

who we used to go when we were children

11389

going out exploring the neighborhood.

11391

So she lives in Cal still

11393

and we're still close friends.

11395

We still talk.

11396

And I just went down to Cal

11398

for her son's wedding.

11399

So she's somebody who's known me

11401

from the time I was born

11402

because she's like a year older than me.

What's her name?

Give a shout out.

Kavita.

Kavita Bagga.

Actually, sorry.

She's Kavita Walia now.

11409

But in my mind, she's Kavita Bagga.

11412

But her pet name is Sweety.

11415

And so I still call her Sweety.

11418

In my mind, she's still that.

11419

Everybody else calls her Kavita.

11422

And so, you know, the kind of memories

11424

we have together of growing up

11426

and childhood memories and going to school.

11429

In fact, even though she's a year older than me,

11431

we both went to school on the same day.

11434

Like we entered school.

11435

I still remember the two of us holding hands

11438

and walking into the school

11439

and feeling very trepidatious

11440

about what was going to happen.

11442

But we still had each other.

11444

So we were like a little bit kind of confident about it.

11448

So I'm still friends with her.

11449

My college friends, most of them have moved out

11451

and they live abroad and things.

11454

So, I mean, I'm in touch with them,

11455

but I don't really meet them that often or anything.

11459

Though the other day in Khan Market,

11461

I was having lunch with another friend

11463

and suddenly two girls who I went to college with

11465

were at the next table.

11466

And like we were so hyper excited to see each other.

11469

I think we brought the restaurant down

11470

with us squealing and shouting.

11474

But most of my friends are actually

11476

from the time I started working,

11477

from the time I started working in Sunday

11479

and then with Telegraph.

11480

I mean, those are people who I'm still friends with,

11483

who started off as work friends,

11485

but they are still my friends.

11487

And then I made another set of friends

11489

when I moved to Delhi.

11492

So I have like, you know, different sets of friends.

11494

Some are journalistic friends,

11496

some are like wives of husbands

11498

who Veer is friendly with.

11501

So we have these different little groups,

11503

not all of them intermingle,

11504

but I have my little friendships.

11507

And we always make it a point to, you know,

11509

meet up at least once in a month or whatever

11512

to have lunch or just to have a coffee

11515

if they don't have time for lunch.

11518

And then of course there's WhatsApp.

11520

So there's a lot of WhatsApping going around.

11522

So actually I'm good with friendships.

11526

One of the sort of dilemmas

11529

I face more and more in these times

11532

is how engaged to be with the world,

11534

especially with what is happening in our country.

11536

And that's my question for you also,

11539

that at one level as a journalist,

11541

as someone who's in fact started off covering politics,

11544

seeing the political space so intimately,

11547

seeing how that's happened.

11548

At one level, you've been a really engaged citizen

11551

just through your journalism to begin with, right?

11554

And at another level, I also feel really strongly sometimes

11559

the temptation to just step back from it,

11561

partly because it is so depressing,

11563

partly because it just seems pointless.

11565

You know, there is sort of this famous phrase

11568

from Kashi Nath Singh in Kashi Kasi.

11570

I'll give a family-friendly version of it.

11575

And sometimes I think I'm happy with my harmonia

11579

and just trying to sort of focus on the work that I do.

11583

And of course, even the work that I do is engaged

11585

and I'm playing the long game.

11586

But the temptation also is that it almost,

11590

one has a certain amount of emotional energy

11592

and it almost becomes a choice

11594

between caring about the country

11595

and just working on self-actualization,

11598

whatever that might mean.

11599

Like, do I want to read five angry columns

11602

about something I myself am angry about?

11604

Or do I just want to sit quietly amid nature

11607

and read a few nice poems and all of that?

11609

Over the years, how have you dealt with that?

11612

To be honest, I think I have retreated a bit

11616

from the political space because it's depressing.

11620

And like you said,

11622

you feel like there's not much you can do about it.

11625

But, you know, there are some things

11627

that still touch you and anger you,

11629

like this whole Manipur thing,

11631

which kind of bring you back into the space,

11634

even though you don't really want to be in it.

11638

But it's a very depressing situation

11641

because you feel that your views or your opinions

11647

account for nothing in this country,

11649

which is a depressing place to be in.

11651

Like, you feel that people who think like you,

11654

it's a shrinking space, we don't really matter.

11659

The country has moved in a different direction,

11662

leaving us behind.

11664

And it's hard to come to terms with,

11668

not just as a journalist,

11669

but just as a person,

11671

it's hard to come to terms with.

11674

So, you know, I've taken up a lot of your time.

11676

This was a great chat,

11677

and hopefully we can do it again sometime.

11679

I'll end with a standard question I ask all my guests.

11682

For my benefit and for the benefit of all my listeners,

11685

recommend some books, films, music,

11687

any kind of art at all that means a lot to you,

11689

and you love it so much that you want to share it with everyone.

11692

Okay.

11693

I'm not a big one for music,

11695

so I'll tell you about films.

11697

And which films would I recommend,

11701

which have meant a lot to me?

11703

It's so hard.

11704

What was the last film that made you cry?

11709

I can't think of any.

11711

You don't cry?

11712

No, I haven't seen any movies like that.

11714

You know, my problem is that all the movies I go and see in film halls

11718

are the ones that are all about superheroes and,

11721

you know, that kind of thing,

11722

which are not terribly moving, unfortunately.

11724

The spectacle films are not the intimate dramas.

11726

Yeah, it's quite sad, actually.

11728

No, I can't think of any.

11731

But I think I would recommend that people watch Gohra,

11734

which was a really amazing show.

11736

I was telling you that it really resonated with me

11740

because it's set in Punjab and that whole milieu was really...

11744

The other streaming show I really like is a very sweet thing called Kathal,

11751

which is about the theft of kathals from this politician's house in UP or whatever,

11759

and how the police tries to retrieve them.

11762

It's actually almost like a dark satire, but it's a great fun thing.

11766

What else have I been watching?

11768

I was recommending to you that you should watch West Wing,

11772

because if you're into politics or you're interested in politics,

11776

it's probably one of the better streaming things to watch.

11780

Books, my God, I love reading a lot of spy novels,

11785

and I don't know if you read him, there's this author called Daniel Silva.

11791

Have you read him?

11792

No.

11793

So he's done this whole series of books.

11796

He's probably done 20 by now,

11797

and the hero is a man called Gabriel Alon,

11801

who is an Israeli art restorer who doubles as an assassin for Mossad,

11808

and it's basically his journey through life.

11811

He starts off as one of the people in Munich where those Israelis were kidnapped,

11820

and then Israel started this whole thing of tracking them down and killing them one by one.

11825

So in the books, he's one of the people who is tasked with killing them one by one,

11830

and then with every book, he's given a different task to do by his masters,

11835

and eventually ends up becoming the head of Mossad himself.

11838

At the moment, he's now retired and back in Venice working as an art restorer.

11842

So it's really fun watching the arc of his life as it goes.

11847

And what I like about it is that they don't portray Israel as the all-knowing and all-seeing thing.

11854

There are all these gray things with Palestinians,

11858

and there are gray areas as well in terms of politics.

11862

It's a very well-written and very kind of balanced narrative of the region, which is good fun.

11867

So those are the things I like.

11869

And apart from that, I love reading Claire McIntosh.

11876

I'm afraid I haven't read her either, but you're giving me a lot to discover.

11879

Yeah, so this is good.

11880

I like doing these little book recommendations in my column.

11885

I do it twice a year for summer reading and winter reading.

11888

And so S.J. Bennett, which I told you about, where the Queen Elizabeth plays a detective,

11896

those are good fun reads.

11898

Serious books, my gosh, I don't know.

11900

These are all serious books, are you object to that?

11902

They're not serious.

11903

I mean, all books are serious.

11904

And you know, one of the best books I've read is actually by Elizabeth Jane Howard.

11909

They're called the Cazalot Chronicles.

11912

And there are four books in the series,

11914

and it tells the story of this kind of upper middle class British family

11920

from the kind of start, before the war and then the war happens and then the post-war years

11926

and how their fortunes fluctuate during that period.

11929

So the best pieces of writing.

11931

It's one of her best books, certainly.

11934

I really loved it.

11935

I can't wait to go out and read all of these.

11938

Seema, this was such a pleasure.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

That was great fun.

Thank you for having me.

11945

If you enjoyed listening to this conversation, check out the show notes.

11948

Enter Abit Holes at will.

11949

Do go to your nearest bookstore online or offline and buy all of Seema's books.

11953

All of them, all three of them.

11954

You can follow her on Twitter at Seema Goswami.

11957

That's one word.

11957

You can follow me on Twitter at Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A.

11961

You can browse past episodes of The Scene and the Unseen at sceneunseen.in.

11965

Thank you for listening.

11969

Did you enjoy this episode of The Scene and the Unseen?

11972

If so, would you like to support the production of the show?

11975

You can go over to sceneunseen.in slash support

11979

and contribute any amount you like to keep this podcast alive and kicking.

11985

Thank you.

Ep 346： The Seema Goswami Files | The Seen and the Unseen