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This is episode 350 of The Scene and the Unseen and I don't know how I got here but I'm so
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glad I did and I'm gonna keep going.
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The show started 7 years ago and week after week I've just gotten the job done.
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In fact, even now I'm not going to think about episode 400 but about episode 351.
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My approach towards The Scene and the Unseen is this.
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I do every episode with full on intensity but the moment it is done, it is done.
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I shift my full focus to the next one and every time it is kator rebhaji, kator rebhaji,
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If you don't know what that means, check out the episode of everything is everything listed
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at the end of the show notes.
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Meanwhile, the question arises, what was I going to do for this milestone episode?
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In episode 200, my friend and frequent guest Shruti Raj Gopalan recorded a bunch of questions
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from many of my guests and I was in the firing line for 5 hours.
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In episode 250, I got a dear personal friend, the great storyteller Narendra Shunoy to tell
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In episode 300, my guest was Pratap Bhanu Mehta and his appearance is cause for celebration
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Episode 299 and 301 are also among my favorites.
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For 350, I took the approach of 250.
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Get a personal friend I admire and I will learn from.
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So this is a special episode for me though once I release it, I will work for the next
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Welcome to The Scene and the Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics and behavior
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Please welcome your host Amit Varma.
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Welcome to The Scene and the Unseen.
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My guest today is Sudhir Sarnabhat, an entrepreneur and thinker who has inspired me to be more
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intentional about many of the things that I do.
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Sudhir's personal story is fascinating.
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He came from a humble Marathi speaking background without any of the privileges city slickers
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like me take for granted.
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At every step of his life, he had to fight.
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Started by sheer force of will, he made himself a career, then he built himself a business,
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sold the business and has now started another one.
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But the key reason I admire him is intentionality.
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He takes nothing in his life for granted and he works hard on every aspect of it.
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Friendships, relationships, knowledge gathering, self improvement etc etc.
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He's on a constant quest, a disciplined quest to understand the world better and has now
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started a business revolving around frameworks of how to think about business.
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He's lived such an interesting life across two domains, the geographical, physical world
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we all inhabit and the world of ideas.
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This is an episode I enjoyed recording.
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For the first half, around two and a half hours, we do a deep dive into his life.
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In the second half, we talk ideas and learnings.
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It's a hell of an episode, listen in.
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Do you want to read more?
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I've put in a lot of work in recent years in building a reading habit.
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This means that I read more books, but I also read more long-form articles and essays.
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There's a world of knowledge available through the internet, but the problem we all face
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is how do we navigate this knowledge?
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How do we know what to read?
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How do we put the right incentives in place?
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Well, I discovered one way.
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A couple of friends of mine run this awesome company called CTQ Compounds at CTQCompounds.com
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which aims to help people up-level themselves by reading more.
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A few months ago, I signed up for one of their programs called The Daily Reader.
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Every day for six months, they sent me a long-form article to read.
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The subjects covered went from machine learning to mythology to mental models and marmalade.
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This helped me build a habit of reading.
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At the end of every day, I understood the world a little better than I did before.
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So if you want to build your reading habit, head on over to CTQCompounds and check out
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New batches start every month.
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They also have a great program called Future Stack, which helps you stay up-to-date with
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ideas, skills, and mental models that will help you stay relevant in the future.
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Future Stack batches start every Saturday.
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What's more, you get a discount of a whopping Rs. 2,500, Rs. 2,500 if you use the discount
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So head on over to CTQCompounds at CTQCompounds.com and use the code UNSEEN.
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Sudhir, welcome to The Scene Indian Scene.
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So you know, I've been planning to do this episode for a long time.
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And this is, of course, episode 350 of The Scene Indian Scene.
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And let's sort of start by taking a broad view of what you're doing these days.
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What are you up to these days?
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What keeps you up at night with excitement?
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I hope nothing keeps you up with worry.
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What are you engaged in these days?
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So these days, I am working on an idea of mine, working on something called How Frameworks.
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That's a company that...
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So we have a company between me and one of my co-founders, Mr. Rajendra Bagwe.
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He's a veteran industrialist, runs his own company, and almost retired now.
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And he's working with, he has his own organization called TLC Teaching and Learning Community
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for last, I think since 2005, he's working on it.
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So he basically teaches certain ideas and management principles to various companies,
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almost now more than a thousand companies in his stable TLC members are there.
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And these companies basically are small and medium enterprises, right from Nasik, Pune,
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Aurangabad, Sangli, Satara, Kollapur area.
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And his motto is basically to kind of making Indian entrepreneurs succeed.
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And they're working to reach around 10,000 entrepreneurs by 2030.
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So I met Mr. Bagwe around five years back.
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He's basically a consultant for a company that I work with closely.
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And whenever we used to go with some problem, pain in the business, he would always not
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give a solution just like that.
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He would always give me a structure or a framework and tell me that, no, no, you are seeing this
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in a wrong way, see it in this manner.
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And then he would throw a framework at us.
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And then we used to go back and think about it.
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And that has been happening for the last five years.
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And then I said that, oh, this is something which is a very different way of looking at
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things or looking at your critical business issues.
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And how can this be kind of structured into some kind of a business which can help Indian
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So that's the idea that kind of got built over the last four or five years.
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And I thought, okay, fine, let me just talk to him and see if I can convert this into
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We had a chat around six months back.
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And he told me that Sudhir Amini, which we retired, so he's 63 now, yeah, he's 59 born.
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So he's almost around 63, 64.
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He runs a company called Reliable Auto Tech, which is a 500-core auto ancillary company
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started by three, two, he and his two partners, friends, actually.
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And he says, I have made enough money that my next 10 generations can eat easily.
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His son is in US, so he's not coming back to India and working with him.
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So he said, I don't want to do anything for profit.
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I want to work, focus on TLC, teaching and learning community.
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And I want to kind of help Indian entrepreneurs succeed in whatever they're doing.
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So he said that, I don't want to do a business.
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But I said that there is an idea here and we could work around it.
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So he said, I was anyway thinking about writing a book.
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But if we can make videos out of this and kind of give this knowledge in structured
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format, that would be something great.
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So then we kind of brainstormed a bit and spent some time.
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I had to really convince him to get into something for profit because he's absolutely not wanting
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to get into anything for profit.
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But then we kind of agreed.
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We spent a couple of days on his farmhouse, beautiful farmhouse he has near Nasik, almost
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around 10 acre farmhouse.
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And we sat there, spent time, kind of played around the idea, what can be done.
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And we finally said, OK, fine.
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So there are a lot of mental models.
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I think Shen Parish, if you see mental models, there are so many which are for general behavior
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or general kind of stuff.
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But we wanted to do only for specific for business and that too for small and medium
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So any company which is more than, let's say, 10, 15 crores and up to, say, 200, 250 crores,
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we wanted to only focus on this segment.
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So he said that, yes, I have been thinking on a lot of stuff for the last 15, 20 years.
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I've been teaching all these companies also.
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So we can build definitely around 400, 500 such frameworks.
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So what we are trying to do is basically build frameworks.
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So kind of write down those frameworks, convert them into videos.
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Videos are not more than 10 minutes.
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So max, max is seven to eight minutes.
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And there will be a bank of videos like that.
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So we are planning to launch sometime in the month of February or March, where we will
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have almost around 100 odd videos.
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And in the front, on the front end, there will be an algorithm and a questionnaire where
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you can answer those questions and we can basically then figure out that, oh, your problem
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is coming out to be this.
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And he has extensive experience on SME issues.
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So he has that kind of structure.
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And then, OK, if you have this problem, then you could have these five or six videos you
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And this will give you some kind of a thought process.
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So now we are not wanting to say that we are claiming that we will give you a solution.
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What we are doing is that we are making entrepreneurs think about their problem.
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So what happens is that India, per se, a lot of people talk about India's jugard and say
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there is a fantastic thing.
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And I think I hate that word because I feel jugard is something that you try to do.
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It's about trying to do some stuff to make it happen.
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So I have this thought process always that if you want to build a two-story house, you
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go to a local mason and load-bearing walls and you build it.
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But if you have to make a 100-story building, you have to make a large structure, then you
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first go to a structural engineer.
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And that structural engineer will create a framework of the building first.
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So when you are wanting to build an organization, then that organization needs to be on certain
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And those structures are what we are trying to kind of think about and kind of give it
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to entrepreneurs so that those entrepreneurs can then use those to kind of kindle some
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thoughts and then move towards solution.
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So at an early stage, any business will have certain critical business issues and they
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will move from issues to issues.
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That's the way the business operates.
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But while they are doing this, they also need to think in structures for the business and
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kind of move forward to grow the business.
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So I think that's something that I'm kind of working on currently.
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And what's the company called?
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So business is howframeworks.com.
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And the company is called Mittelstein Business Solutions.
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That's the name of the company.
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We formed the company around a couple of months back.
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And that's kind of just we just made one payment a couple of days back.
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So that's how it started.
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And there's this great line I came across in one of the pieces you wrote, or perhaps
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it's in your LinkedIn profile, where you wrote a few paras about yourself.
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And you said, we need to transform doer entrepreneurs into thinker entrepreneurs.
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And I'm very sort of interested in this distinction because it strikes me that when
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someone becomes an entrepreneur, you start with an idea.
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So you're a thinker at that point.
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But then you go from tackling one fire after another, reacting to things that happen.
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And so much of the time goes into doing that you don't have time to take a step back and
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And is that in your own, and we'll go in detail through your own entrepreneurial journey later
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But just at a broader level, is that a journey that you found yourself forced to make?
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Does it take a certain kind of person?
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Like some people are more naturally doer kind of people, and some people can do the
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thinking kind of people, but then they don't do.
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So in this situation to take someone running a business and sort of, you know, show them
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another lane, make them, you know, skip back and show them the other underlying layers.
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You know, what is, how has that journey been for you personally?
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And we can begin with that.
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So I think I was a doer and among my friends who also we worked together, everybody used
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to say you're a doer and I enjoy doing.
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But over a period of time, once I started, I started my own company in 1997, 98, and
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once we started growing that company, I started realizing that doing just is not enough.
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You need to think and just it's not just do thinking.
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You need to think and do do and think that that combination needs to be there.
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But thinking is very important and thinking in structures is helpful because in business
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you will keep on coming out with issues one after other.
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And unless and until you go to the basics of the business, you will not be able to solve
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Otherwise, what happens is that you start solving the symptoms, not the real cause of
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So I look at business as a very simple thing that can create value.
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That's the most important part.
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These are the two things.
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If you if you focus on these two things very clearly, you can actually do wonderful business.
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Everything else then becomes complexity.
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But the pure, pure thing is you have to create value.
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You cannot not create value.
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But at the same time, you have to make profit because if you want the business to continue,
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you need to make profit.
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So over a period of time, I think the journey was that when I was ignorant, I was smart
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or I was actually very confident.
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And then over a period of time, I started seeing smarter people.
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I started seeing that, yes, there are blind spots that I've had.
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And then I didn't lose my confidence, but I started seeing things with a little kind
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of I started thinking about it.
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Am I doing things right?
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Is there a blind spot that I have?
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And I became, I think, more humble.
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The self-reflection helped.
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I started so whenever my email has a quote that if you are the smartest person in the
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room, you're in the wrong room.
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That's the kind of a quote that I have.
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And that quote keeps me reminding that I want to be in the room where there are smarter
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people, smarter than me.
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I always worked whenever in business.
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I never hired people who are dumber than me.
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I said, no, I need to hire smarter people.
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At a certain point of time, the people whom I had hired took more salary than I took home.
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So in our business, we paid them more salary.
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And then we had me and my partner, we had debates.
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How can we give them more salary than us?
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And I said, we have equity.
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But that person does not have equity.
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And if that person does not have equity and if he's smarter, then we need to give him
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So we had followed those principles.
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So all these things came after a kind of self-reflection, after kind of thinking about
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stuff that we were doing.
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And I realized that thinking is as much important as doing.
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Just doing doesn't work.
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Thinking, thinking in frames is what matters.
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So I think that's something which I learned over a period of time through my professional
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I love the quote about if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.
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But that leads me to a game theory problem that if everybody believes that, then whenever
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there's a room full of people, the smartest person will leave because he's in the wrong
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And then the next smartest person will leave because she's in the wrong room and so on
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And obviously, I'm getting the guard against this is that everybody has the smartest people
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have humility, so they will never acknowledge themselves as the smartest people.
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But otherwise, you get into a game theoretic situation where there's nobody in a room
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because everybody had to leave one by one.
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Anyway, I'm just kidding.
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And you know, I want to sort of underscore that profit point also, because too many people
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sort of like there is, of course, a famous quote from Nehru to JRD Tata where he said,
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never speak to me of profit.
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And equally, there is a quote, I forget the exact words, but by Lee Kuan Yew, you know,
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in the early days of Singapore, that without profit, Singapore can never grow.
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And I think that value and profit are intrinsically linked because what is a metric for you to
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know whether you're creating value or not?
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If you're bringing you know, it's a double thank you moment.
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If you're bringing value to someone, they will pay you for it.
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And so one, the metric for whether you're creating value or not is profit.
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And two, the incentive to keep creating value is profit.
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It is a best incentive.
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So these are linked in such beautiful ways that I somehow sometimes bemoan that attitude
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where people think of profit as, oh, exploitation chal rai, it's dirty, they're thinking of
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money, they're materialistic.
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And I'm like, no, no, no, this is, you know, this is what keeps us moving forward.
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This is what helps us, you know, move ahead.
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But, you know, quite apart from my little and very characteristic rant, I will move
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to the characteristic line of inquiry and ask you about your childhood because I'm very
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curious, you know, where were you born?
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Tell me about your parents.
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Ah, so I'm born in Bombay, Bombay all the time.
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So I love calling it Bombay.
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I never could resonate with Mumbai per se.
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It happened, but never could resonate.
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I am born 1969 in Bombay in a place called Kanwar Nagar in Vikhroli.
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It's a small, typical, you would say, chal system.
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That was the MADA, the early erstwhile, the housing board.
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They used to call housing board then now it is called MADA.
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So those are buildings and those were buildings of 180 square feet house.
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And there are 40 buildings, 40 rooms in a building.
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So five story building, no elevator.
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We used to stay on a ground floor, a corner house.
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And it was basically typically a common gallery.
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Then you enter a small drawing room, then a kitchen and a bathroom and a toilet.
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Five of us used to stay.
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Me, my elder brother, my younger brother came a little later, four years after me.
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And dad, mom, we used to add our uncles.
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So my younger uncles, they came from also.
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So my father held from a place called Anzarle, which is in Konkan.
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And he came to Bombay, I think, in early 60s, mid 60s, he came.
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We had a very small kind of land and there's mango trees and there are coconut trees.
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That's typical Konkan livelihood.
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And he had three other brothers and one sister.
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And the typical migration of Konkan people, they come to Bombay and pick up a job.
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When he came, he did not have his 10th matriculate pass.
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So he did not have any proper job.
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So I think he dropped the milk line is one you drop milk in the morning,
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you drop paper in the morning, that kind of stuff he did to start with.
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He stayed with one of his maternal sister.
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Again, they had a house in somewhere in Chinspokli, which is a typical cotton mill hub.
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And they also had a very small house.
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So these guys would sleep in the common gallery or maybe sometimes on the footpath.
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Early time, that must be around 67, 68.
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Then, so our ancestral place, typically he had one kind of a mentor.
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His name was Vaman Nitsure.
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And he stayed in Dadar in Bombay.
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And he was kind of a mentoring him.
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And he kind of told him that, so my father's name is Keshav.
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So he'll say, Keshav, you come to me.
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When you come to Bombay, come to me.
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We'll figure out something.
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My father's name is also Keshav.
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Oh, I didn't know that.
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So he came to Bombay and he did these odd jobs to start with first.
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And then he got this job.
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So his name was Vaman Nitsure.
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I still remember that name.
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And he used to stay in a building called Siddharud building in Bhavnishankar road on Dadar.
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And he was a manager in Digvijay textile mills.
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So he said, you come and maybe we'll give you a job.
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And that's how my father got a job, which was a stable job then,
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in Digvijay textile mills, which is in Chinspokli, Lal Bagh area, but typical.
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And I think Kannamwar was basically a tenement where people were given low cost housing.
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It was and you got it through allotment.
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So I think the four flats which were there, those four flats were given for the freedom fighters.
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So all our neighbors were freedom fighters and this flat was given to a freedom fighter.
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But that guy, I think, did not have that seven thousand rupees to pay and he didn't want it.
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And then somebody told my father that this flat is kind of this house is kind of it's not a flat.
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This house is kind of available.
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And if you fill up this form and do this, then you will get it.
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I think in 1968, we got it.
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And my father moved in there.
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It's a reclaimed land, completely reclaimed land.
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And I think this entire property or entire land is owned by Godresh family.
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I think acres and acres of land.
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And it's a marshy land.
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So they put reclamation and then they built this entire colony called Kannabhar Nagar.
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All typical, it's not cosmopolitan.
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It is all Maharashtrians, all who have come from Konkan.
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And everybody is doing small jobs.
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So somebody is in mill.
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But most of them were in mill, the cotton mills of Bombay.
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And everybody would leave in the morning at seven, seven thirty eight.
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Depending upon their shifts and come back in the evening.
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The railway station was around 10, 12 minutes.
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So you walk down to the railway station and come back from there.
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That is typically how it started.
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I was in a local school called Vidya Mandir.
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I did my first to sixth standard from the school called Vidya Mandir.
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Very small school, but everybody from there.
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So I used to study well.
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And there used to be something called ideal student in every class.
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I used to be an ideal student because you study well.
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My handwriting was good.
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So handwriting was one of the good things.
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Then if your handwriting is good, then you're like a good student.
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And I spent six years in that school.
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Studied well, got first, second rank all the time.
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But it was a small pond and I was the king in the small pond.
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So I didn't realize that then.
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But now when I look at it, I realize it.
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And my parents used to take pride in their son coming first or second and studious.
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Because I think that was the currency.
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My parents, my father could not study.
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My mother also was 10th pass.
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So really studying good and getting a good job was the ultimate objective.
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And everybody around us, all the friends around there were average students.
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Everybody would go to school, play in the afternoon, play in the evening,
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study in the late evening and go back.
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We played a lot of cricket.
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So there is a ground in Kannabarnagar,
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a little smaller than the Shivaji Park of the other, which is supposed to be a big ground.
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And we used to play in that ground.
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We had small, small grounds around.
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And it was typical that rubber ball cricket.
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And during the summer vacations, start at around eight o'clock in the morning,
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playing cricket, come back at one, eat, have lunch, again go out at two o'clock,
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play up to six o'clock, that kind of a life we had.
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In terms of extracurricular activity, playing cricket was something which was there.
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And I think I remember this time is the big time, used to be big time,
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So Ganpati will come and then those seven days, 11 days Ganpati.
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So there is a common Ganpati of Kannabarnagar.
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There are multiple common Ganpati's which are there.
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And I remember going from house to house with Aarti.
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There used to be Aarti.
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So you play Aarti at one place, eat Prasad, go to Yeh.
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So at least you do three, four houses in the building.
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It used to be fun then.
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In terms of, so until sixth standard, this was the scene.
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Every summer holiday, we used to go to Gau.
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So go to our dad's ancestral place.
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That I think we did until sixth or seventh or eighth standard.
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Go every summer, spend a month at our Gau and kind of have mangoes,
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go around to the seashore.
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So go to the beach there every evening and kind of chill, relax kind of a life then.
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Typically not much of money.
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So it was a lower middle class kind of childhood.
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So fairly good amount of scarcity.
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So live on stuff that you have.
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That's the kind of a mentality in Marathi.
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They say that, so basically you kind of manage in what you have.
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So it was more about savings was a focus than earning income was a focus.
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Because earning income, the limitation of what you can earn was already kind of self-imposed.
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And that kind of went on as a thought process, which I think I bunked over a period of time.
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But that is something that was inculcated into us very clearly.
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And everybody around us used to think in the same way.
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So nobody in our family ever did business.
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Everybody was an employee of some company or some mill or something like that.
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My uncle tried a business later on.
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But otherwise everybody took kind of a job and worked on the job.
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In terms of reading, I think we used to read a lot of newspapers.
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So we used to get a newspaper, a Marathi newspaper.
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My entire reading until 10th standard has been Marathi only.
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I never read anything English.
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I never had access to that.
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And so I didn't know how it is done.
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So we used to read newspapers.
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There was a typical Lok Satta is a Marathi newspaper.
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There was a Maharashtra Times.
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Then there was a Sakaal and then there was something called Navashakti.
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These were the four newspapers.
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And again, if you look at the Brahminical hierarchy,
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so Mata used to be kind of read by all people who are little better off.
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Then Lok Satta, then Sakaal and then Navashakti.
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That hierarchy also was there.
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I distinctly remember that we used to get Lok Satta.
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And some people who used to do a labor job kind of in a mill.
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So my father was in a clerical job.
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So he was a little better off.
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And somebody who is doing a labor job would read Navashakti
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because it had very hard-hitting articles against the government
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and against the poverty and the whole lot.
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We used to read, I think there is to be a Chandoba karke Marathi mein aata hai.
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So we used to read that.
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When I became in seventh and eighth standard,
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when I went, I think I started reading thrillers in Marathi.
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So there used to be an author called Baburao Arnalkar.
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I think he has written more than 1,500 books.
#
And he had these typical characters called Kala Pahad, Zunzar or Dhananjay.
#
Then there is to be another known author,
#
very well-known author called Suhasir Valkar.
#
And he had these characters called Barrister Amar Vishwas
#
and Dara Buland and Firoz Irani.
#
All those interesting characters.
#
So I have read all those then.
#
I think that memory is very easy now.
#
But I still remember that I used to read them during the normal time,
#
but more so during the Diwali holidays and summer holidays.
#
Diwali interesting thing happens in Marathi is Diwali Ankh.
#
This is a very interesting tradition in Marathi,
#
a Maharashtrian houses that you enjoy Diwali,
#
but you also enjoy the Diwali literature which used to come.
#
So there used to be a magazine called Aawaz.
#
There used to be a magazine called Jatra.
#
Menka was a little romance.
#
And kind of they would have this female with a kind of cleavage shown and all.
#
And parents would like, no, don't read that.
#
Those kind of stuff used to happen.
#
This whole lot of, so you would get at least three, four Diwali Ankh
#
during that Diwali period.
#
And then you would read them.
#
And a very interesting kind of a tradition that was there.
#
That was the kind of overall reading.
#
So that's the kind of life that I led.
#
Everybody around us was lower middle class.
#
So the aspirations there were that you kind of get any education
#
that will make you employable.
#
Then the best is that you buy a two-wheeler, get married,
#
and buy one more house with whatever that you would do in terms of...
#
And I think the migration was,
#
if you have one room kitchen, then you buy one BHK.
#
I think that was the one bedroom kitchen house.
#
And I think that's the kind of...
#
That was the kind of aspiration.
#
I had friends who drew kind of auto rickshaw later on.
#
I still have friends who did that kind of a job.
#
I got a job, but they were doing auto rickshaw drivers.
#
I have this interesting anecdote.
#
I still remember we used to have a neighbor
#
staying in the opposite building.
#
And they were South Indian.
#
And they had this daughter, beautiful daughter, very beautiful daughter.
#
And she was elder than us, and she was getting married.
#
And we heard that her father gave five lakh dowry
#
and fifty tola or five tola or fifty tola, I don't remember, gold.
#
And that was the tradition there.
#
And we had one guy who was, again, senior around, I think,
#
six, seven years senior, a guy called Praveen.
#
And he used to kind of drive auto as a livelihood.
#
And he said, what is this?
#
They had to give five lakh.
#
And if they had given me one lakh, I would have bought two autos.
#
One auto I would have put on rent.
#
Another auto I would have kind of run myself
#
and taken a rental house here.
#
And I would have made her live like a queen.
#
Why would they give so much money?
#
And I still remember that, that how people were thinking
#
in terms of what is the best life.
#
The best life is having two autos, one on rent.
#
So you get rent from that.
#
The second is something that you drive and that's your livelihood.
#
And you take a rental house somewhere in Kannabhar Nagar only.
#
And you keep your wife like a queen.
#
You give her a treatment of a queen.
#
And I think that's how the overall aspirations of life were kind of made.
#
Or that was the influence that I had.
#
And it was very difficult for me over a period of time
#
to break through those shackles.
#
Because that influence was so strong that your dreams were so small.
#
And that was the kind of, today I look at my life and I find it so,
#
I'm so fortunate that I could come out of that kind of poverty,
#
that kind of a middle class life.
#
It's not just about money.
#
It's also about breaking those barriers,
#
breaking those mental barriers that were there.
#
Because everybody was like that.
#
And I carried the same thing and I still have friends
#
who thought in a similar way.
#
But then many of them, they got out of that place.
#
So my father always wanted us to kind of break free from that.
#
And he wanted, and the passport for that was education.
#
So my elder brother was made to go for an engineering diploma.
#
So after 10th, he did 12th and then could not get enough marks.
#
So then he went to do a diploma, diploma in electronics in WD.
#
My father, I think that was a pivotal moment.
#
In the 6th standard, I was there and his mentor,
#
that Vaman Nitsure, who used to stay in Siddharud building
#
on Bahani Shankar Road in Dadar,
#
he told my father that if you want your son to get admission to good college,
#
then you need to move him from Vikroli school to different school.
#
And in the 6th standard, he told that wherever I stay,
#
he stays on Bahani Shankar Road, couple of buildings away,
#
Shardhasram is famous such in Tendulkar school.
#
So he said that Shardhasram is there.
#
So you get his admission in Shardhasram.
#
And it should help him because there is a technical wing there.
#
So after 8th standard, there used to be something called technical subjects.
#
And if you are from a technical stream,
#
then getting an admission in diploma is kind of an easier thing to do.
#
So you get, I think, special, there is a technical quota used to be there.
#
And my father said, so my father was absolute obedient.
#
So when Mr. Nitsure is saying something, then he will do it.
#
So he went to this school, he filled up the form.
#
And I think in the 6th standard, this must be, I think, 1981,
#
I got admission to Shardhasram school.
#
And the first year I traveled by train.
#
So from Vikroli to Dadar, I used to go by train in 7th standard.
#
And then 8th, 9th, 10th, I think I went by bus.
#
So this was kind of an interesting change in life
#
because that helped me go to a different stream.
#
That helped me get admission to VZTI later on.
#
That actually, I did my engineering diploma there.
#
And that changed the life in a way.
#
So that was a kind of a pivotal moment.
#
What I remember is that I always felt,
#
so there was a clear-cut separation of territories, I would say.
#
So I always thought that somebody who is living in Dadar is richer than us.
#
I didn't know that nothing like that was there.
#
But I always had that imagination.
#
Or I always had that thought.
#
So South Bombay was never, I never understood what is South Bombay then.
#
South Bombay as a concept, I got to know only after my engineering.
#
Until that South Bombay and so we never mingled in that area.
#
We went max to Ghatkopar, which was the next kind of a suburb.
#
Dadar was always something which was kind of a shopping district for us.
#
So my mom wants to buy some sarees or we want to buy some stuff.
#
And Dadar, I always thought until I went to one of my friend's house in Sadashram.
#
One of my friends, he used to stay in Dadar only.
#
And when I went to his house and I saw the Spartan house, no furniture and anything.
#
At that time, I realized that yes, people in Dadar also are poor.
#
So until then, I always thought that somebody who lives in Dadar is rich person or richer person.
#
I had that kind of a thought process.
#
So I went to Sadashram that and then Sadashram was again Marathi school.
#
Sadashram is where the kind of educational competition started coming in.
#
But there are smarter kids and I went and I typically, so because it's a new school,
#
so you don't get kind of accepted among the people.
#
And so I was with the students who used to sit back benchers.
#
Again, Sadashram had a healthy mix of people who are coming from BDD Chawl.
#
So I don't know whether you know, there is an area called BDD Chawl in Worli and in Niagara.
#
These are typical, again, similar tenements like what Kannabhar Nagar is.
#
One room kitchen kind of houses and all these people from mills, they work there.
#
Or a small printing process in and around Lower Parel.
#
Those people would stay there.
#
That is a typical, again, lower middle class housing.
#
And those kids used to be in Sadashram school also.
#
So I was in this standard C.
#
7C would become 8C and 8C is what you would be technical education, yes, to a kind of a stream.
#
I went there, there was already a hierarchy of numbers.
#
So what is your rank used to kind of decide your friends.
#
And even the cricket team would be of those kids who are basically,
#
who would kind of rank better and then rank lower, there would be a different cricket team.
#
And first semester happened and first semester, I studied well.
#
So I used to kind of, I was a very sincere student.
#
I studied well and I got good marks, but I didn't know what was my rank.
#
And there was never used to be a rank.
#
There used to be kind of marks and you get percentages.
#
And then people, the kids would talk to each other.
#
How much is your person?
#
And then they decide who is ranked first and second.
#
So there used to be a guy, the student called Vinayakok used to stand first.
#
And then there was Jeetendra Shirke.
#
And Ravi Samant, who is my close friend, he is third.
#
And then I think Prakash Bhagat, these names are coming back to me now.
#
This used to be fourth.
#
And suddenly they found that their numbers are,
#
so the teacher told that you are not first to Oak.
#
And then Oak started asking Shirke that, oh, are you first?
#
Then he went to Ravi and said, are you first?
#
And then they found that there is this new kid in the school or in the class
#
who has got first and I got first.
#
And then they started accepting me.
#
So I got admitted to the cricket team, which these kids have.
#
And I started playing cricket with them and I got accepted.
#
And Ravi used to stay just across the school.
#
So he used to stay in Shardashram Society, which is just a road across.
#
So when the school used to start at 7.15, he would leave from home at 7.14
#
and come in one minute to school.
#
That kind of thing used to happen.
#
So Shardashram, I never got into school cricket team
#
because we had fantastic cricket years.
#
Sachin was already there.
#
When I was in 10, Sachin was in 8.
#
And there is a V section.
#
Our school is kind of a C-shaped.
#
And the V on the front end, first and second floor,
#
you would see the glasses are broken.
#
Those were straight drives that were hit by cricketers
#
who would break the glasses.
#
And those are all glasses.
#
They were bothered of fixing those glasses
#
because they would get broken every now and then.
#
Aminud Kamli was there.
#
I think we know the Taram Pandit who used to stay in Chembur.
#
It was Chandrakant Pandit's younger brother who used to come.
#
They were good, fantastic cricketers.
#
These guys were, these guys, Amal Mujano I think came much later
#
because I think we were out of the school until then.
#
But I distinctly remember Chandrakant Pandit,
#
the Taram Pandit, Sachin Tendulkar and Aminud Kamli.
#
They were there, English medium school.
#
Again, this was no co-education.
#
So boy school in the morning, girl school in the afternoon,
#
that kind of stuff used to happen.
#
So that's the story until VZTI, VZTI, it's standard.
#
I did my technical education and completed it in 10.
#
After 10, the focus was basically, by that time was around 85.
#
And the focus was get on to a good education.
#
So do engineering diploma.
#
And I had seen my elder brother struggling, the 12th standard.
#
And I said that, okay, fine, let's do a diploma.
#
Though I was good, I didn't want to do 12.
#
So I did my engineering diploma.
#
And I got admission in good college.
#
VZTI is a very good college that was there.
#
I got admission in VZTI in Bhagubai, which is at Parla.
#
But I took VZTI and I took engineering stream of mechanical.
#
So I came to VZTI engineering.
#
And that was the first time the scare started.
#
Because until 10th standard, the education was in Marathi.
#
And suddenly it became all turned into English.
#
And I could never understand stuff that was taught in the school, in the college.
#
What happened is that my school friend Ravi, his cousin had done 12th standard
#
and could not get good marks.
#
So he came to engineering diploma.
#
His name was Nandu Patkar.
#
He used to stay in Dadar.
#
So he was in my same class and he became my friend.
#
He had his friends from his school.
#
So they became my friends.
#
And that's how my group of six to eight friends got formed.
#
So that was a good thing.
#
I had kind of somebody whom I could look up to.
#
And these kids, all of these guys had already finished 12th standard.
#
So some education in English had already happened.
#
So they were good at taking notes and they understood
#
what was happening in the college lectures and all.
#
I used to sit next to these kids who had come to engineering diploma after 12th.
#
And there was a system that you would go to engineering second year.
#
You can kind of again give the exam and go to engineering after first year.
#
I think there was something called you do one year of engineering.
#
You do engineering diploma and then you get second year
#
direct admission to second year of engineering degree.
#
Something like that was there.
#
And these kids used to follow that stuff that if you don't get good marks
#
to go to engineering college after 12th for a degree,
#
then you come do diploma and then get an admission.
#
So instead of doing the degree in 12 plus four,
#
they would do it in I think six years, but you get to do the degree.
#
Something of that sort was there.
#
So these all students were there.
#
And because they understood what was happening in the lecture in English,
#
I used to sit next to somebody like that.
#
So there used to be, I remember there was a guy called Karanjekar,
#
I used to sit next to him and copy what he had written in this
#
and then kind of understand that.
#
So VZTI is somewhere I learned that there are smarter people in the world.
#
So I had come out from that small pond of Sadashram
#
where I used to stand first or second in the class.
#
But VZTI, I could never get that rank.
#
They were absolutely way, way, way smart kids.
#
And then I used to get around 70, 80 percent marks.
#
And I used to kind of pass through the stuff,
#
but never close to passing marks, but never at the top of the school.
#
And I did the entire engineering sincerely.
#
We had an interesting concept during diploma there.
#
It is the fifth semester and eighth semester
#
is where you would go and work in industry.
#
So during my fifth semester, you had to go for an implant
#
that used to be called implant training.
#
And you would go to kind of,
#
so companies used to send a kind of invitation for implant training
#
and you kind of go, you have a small interview
#
and they would take you as a trainee and they will pay you stipend also.
#
I still remember my engineering semester fee
#
was something like 600 rupees for the entire semester.
#
And the stipend used to be around 350, 400 rupees a month.
#
So rather, I would kind of make more money in those six months
#
than my entire kind of college fees.
#
And I went for a company called Blue Star.
#
So they had come and they had sent kind of request for students.
#
And VZTI was supposed to be a very good college in Bombay then.
#
And I went to, so me and there was another friend of mine, Sanjay Mayakar,
#
both of us used to, both of us we went to early,
#
band box house and gave the interview there.
#
So Sanjay Mayakar went first and he was asked,
#
what all kind of system, so in the air conditioning,
#
so it's a air conditioning contract company, big company.
#
It was number one, number two then.
#
And we really had not studied well.
#
So we didn't know what would they ask in the air.
#
So he was asked at what are the components in an air conditioning cycle.
#
And he said, he went and he could say compressor
#
and he could not say the operator condenser and there is an expansion wall,
#
which I know now, but I didn't know then.
#
And so he said compressor and he came out and as usual,
#
so I asked him, what did you ask?
#
Then I asked the air conditioning cycle, I didn't know the whole thing,
#
but I told him compressor.
#
And I said, yeah, I know condenser.
#
So I said, yeah, so I went in and he asked me the same question
#
and I said condenser and compressor.
#
So I could tell two, he could only tell one and I think I got selected.
#
And that's where my professional kind of journey started.
#
I was deputed at a site near Worli.
#
That was the State Bank of India site.
#
Air conditioning was happening.
#
They had some computer center large and we were giving
#
a kind of package air conditioners.
#
And I was so typically as an training engineer,
#
you would be a site supervisor.
#
You basically supervise this site.
#
So I went, I started kind of, I had Kumar Parekh was my first boss there.
#
He was a Guju, a vegetarian typical Guju and a very nice gentleman, very nice.
#
Bluestar was a very good company, very good training ground for me.
#
My entire kind of learning into professional career happened there.
#
And so I went and started typical supervising means you arrange for workers,
#
you arrange for material for entire stuff and you supervise the quality you get.
#
So there used to be ducting, there used to be stuff to be done on a typical project site.
#
One month into the training and I was told that you'll have to go to Nasik
#
for because you're appointed on another job site because that job site engineer has got out
#
and that's a bigger site and we need people there.
#
And Kumar told me that you have to go there and meet this gentleman called Prasan Jadhav.
#
And he's at this place.
#
And this was told to me at around say 10, 10, 13 in the morning when I had reached the site.
#
Now the whole point is that until then I had never travelled by train to Long Journey.
#
My place was in Konkan and Konkan there was no train then.
#
We used to go by the straight transport ST bus and come back by ST bus.
#
So I had never travelled by train until then and they told me no you take a train and you go.
#
They said 11.30 there is I think Mahanagari Express which goes to UP that you can go by.
#
And I think I had a bag to carry my clothes but I did not have any other.
#
I had no inkling how to do this.
#
And then I asked Kumar then and what about money and all?
#
He said no no no go to office there used to be our boss called Garde so he will give you some advance not a problem.
#
And then I said that I have to go today.
#
He said yeah you need to go today.
#
I said but then there's not enough time.
#
And then I went to office I think I took some advance they gave some 500 rupees advance to me.
#
And then I went home then I told my parents that I have to go to Nasik.
#
And everybody was kind of surprised and shocked they always thought I will remain in Bombay.
#
But I kind of moved out.
#
Next day morning I packed my bag I go to the other railway station.
#
This train used to come from VT out at 11.30 this train was there.
#
And I said I could not there was no reservation so I was not sure about my seat.
#
It used to take around four hours to reach to Nasik.
#
And so there are typical those coolies those so they were there on the station with that red tag and a red kind of dress.
#
And one of the guy asked me seat chahiye kya?
#
And I said kis ke liye Dadar Mahanagari express.
#
Mahanagari express not from Dadar that was from VT.
#
So I said kitna rupaya?
#
And I said tike and I said fine.
#
And the train entered on the platform and I saw that people are sitting on the so there are three tier berth.
#
And so first second and third so middle and third and people are sitting everywhere that train was full.
#
And I was like surprised seeing so many people in a train.
#
And that guy held my hand and started running and he said run and I was running with him and at the front.
#
So we were somewhere in the middle and at the front the first bogey was the unreserved bogey.
#
And these people had this habit of putting a towel and claiming seats.
#
And those seats then they would sell for 10 rupees for people like us.
#
And he held my hand and took me in started running.
#
And when I saw that there are people everywhere in the coach I just kind of removed I just no no I am not going in this train.
#
And I just stopped I said I can't go this is such a crowd.
#
And then I was told that I knew that there is another train which leaves from Dadar that goes to Nagpur.
#
Dadar Nagpur which was at 12.30 in the afternoon and that leaves from platform number six or seven in Dadar.
#
So I just kind of left his hand and he started cursing me because I lost his 10 rupee earning.
#
But I just took the flyover the bridge and I just moved to the seventh platform number six or seven.
#
And Dadar Nagpur was there.
#
It was already there I think yeah and it was empty and because it is only used to go.
#
So then I realized that all these UP or Bihar those bound trains be full during that period.
#
Because that was the farming harvesting period and all these people would go from Bombay to all those places in UP.
#
And that learning happened and I went to.
#
So from there I left to Nasik sat there.
#
I think TC came and I think there was an unreserved bogey.
#
And typically those TC's would take 10 rupees from you and give you the seat.
#
And then kind of write your name is there because typically there was some quota from Nasik.
#
So Nasik quota would fill up get filled up at Nasik.
#
So that seat would be empty until Nasik.
#
And that was overnight train so you can go sitting until Nasik and there's no issue.
#
So I got my seat I reached Nasik then got into auto.
#
And went to this place called Hotel Raj which is just around five minutes away from railway station.
#
And I met my boss my mentor my only boss who I think who taught me a lot.
#
I am kind of incredibly incredibly kind of indebted to him.
#
He I think transformed my life.
#
So Prasan Jadhav he was my first and last boss only boss I had.
#
And he was there sitting at around I reached at around 4 40 12 30.
#
I think 4 45 I reached in the evening.
#
I still distinct I still remember that room number 13 on the second floor of Hotel Raj at Bitco point.
#
And he was sitting there and he was writing something.
#
And then he was having his one peg he was having his drink.
#
And he he told me come and he said let me finish this what he is doing.
#
And I sat there I kept my bag.
#
And then after I think 10 minutes he looked up and he said I was writing a letter to client.
#
So I was just kind of a draft.
#
Now writing a letter he was writing in a writing pad.
#
Because I think that time there were no computers.
#
This is 1987 I am talking about yeah 1987 yeah.
#
And he told me I was writing a letter to client the government client.
#
And we have to keep our correspondence perfect.
#
Otherwise we can be we will be imposed penalty for delay in the job.
#
So you have to keep recording every delay.
#
Get to the project project of I think 18 months 24 months and project management may
#
you have to keep your ground clear.
#
So that's Prachan Jadhav writing his letter.
#
And I had already seen the dustbin with I think 10 12 papers thrown in the dustbin.
#
So he had already written some 7 8 drafts of the letter and thrown them very meticulous guy.
#
So he just gave me that and then he told me okay fine.
#
So you are going to be the site engineer on this project called currency note press.
#
We have a contract of 1.37 crores.
#
Then I remember that's huge.
#
1.37 crores in 87 is like today some 15 20 crore 25 crore project.
#
And you are going to be the site engineer.
#
I am going to be the project engineer and he just he had this VIP car briefcase.
#
So that is the interesting thing about briefcases.
#
Briefcase was a symbol of sophistication.
#
So if you have a briefcase that means you have arrived.
#
I remember that those typical VIP Colac briefcase he had.
#
He opened that briefcase.
#
He had that number lock and he took out a packet and he gave it to me.
#
That packet was 5000 rupees cash and he gave it to me.
#
And he said Sudhir this is the money for spending site and all our expenses here.
#
So this is the money you start spending.
#
That was the first time I had a bundle of 5000 rupees in my hand ever.
#
In today's money it would be like 2-3 lakhs.
#
I don't know how much it would be.
#
I never really kind of mentally calculated that.
#
But it's priceless for you.
#
I never had that kind of money in my hand ever.
#
And that kind of I look at that moment and I feel what kind of confidence one can get
#
with money in the hand.
#
Because I was always never money was never there.
#
So that money that packet was kind of so you can spend this money
#
and you can kind of have this in your hand.
#
Itself was a huge confidence booster.
#
I was not a very impressive personality.
#
I was 5 feet 7 and a half inches thin.
#
And confidence was lacking because money was lacking and that was there.
#
And this kind of something Prashant gave me.
#
Was a huge confidence booster.
#
I never realized that then.
#
Now when I look back all those years and I see that moment was very pivotal moment
#
in life where you could spend the money.
#
And Prashant later on he took me around.
#
So he did a lot of things for me.
#
He actually treated me like a younger brother or a kind of a maybe his kid was.
#
He had just had a daughter who was one and a half year old, one year old, Zai.
#
So we became very close pretty close later on.
#
Prashant we are in touch.
#
Prashant is in Pune now but Prashant is in touch.
#
So that's my kind of a professional career started.
#
This was the project was about modernization of currency note press.
#
So where all our notes get printed in Nasik.
#
That entire press was getting modernized.
#
They were kind of air conditioning the entire place.
#
And they had imported machines from Germany and Belgium and Holland.
#
And those were kind of super fast money or currency printing machines.
#
And these machines would kind of a very fantastic technology.
#
So the entire hall would be kind of air condition and had to have very precise temperature
#
and more than temperature humidity also.
#
Humidity is because if you have a higher humidity and then the paper would stick to each other.
#
So you had a miss print happening.
#
And if the humidity is kind of low, then the ink on the ink, the head would dry.
#
So you had to had perfect 55% RH, 55% relative humidity plus or minus 5% then.
#
So you could go down to 50 and max to 60.
#
Beyond 60, paper would stick below 50, ink would dry.
#
So that was a very precision kind of air conditioning then.
#
That's where I learned air conditioning in Blue Star.
#
So I was doing my college.
#
This was the sixth month stint.
#
So I used to go to every Monday.
#
I used to go to Nasik and every Friday I used to come back, spend time.
#
And then sometimes I used to stay in Bombay on Monday also to arrange material and get stuff done.
#
Blue Star headquarters was in Worli, the band box house.
#
I think next door was Dunlop where Sunil Gavasky used to work.
#
Nirlan used to be next door and Sunil Gavasky used to work.
#
So we used to kind of say that Sunil Gavasky is here.
#
Cricket was the kind of fascination then still and that's how it was.
#
Blue Star kind of gave me a lot of learning on air conditioning.
#
My professional kind of grounding happened there.
#
Project management I learned there.
#
Prashant was a very good teacher.
#
He's basically a teacher.
#
So he taught me all the ropes.
#
How do you manage a project?
#
How do you kind of get stuff done?
#
The coordination, the logistics of material.
#
There used to be a lot of stuff used to happen in terms of logistics alone.
#
Octra was very big then.
#
So there were four Octra Nakas on Nasik.
#
One is from Bombay, one is from Gujarat, one is from UPBR.
#
So material used to come from all places.
#
The material used to get stuck because you have to go and pay Octra.
#
So we used to carry cash and pay Octra.
#
So whenever I used to go and there were no mobiles then.
#
So they would call on my hotel landline and they would tell us that the truck has come.
#
Then you go and release the truck, pay the Octra.
#
Because it was a government institution, the Octra was exempted.
#
So we used to get Octra Exemption Certificate.
#
So show the Octra Exemption Certificate.
#
And sometimes we used to get material for other sites also.
#
So that coordination work was my job.
#
Going to a site and supervising the work, supervising the quality, supervising the timelines.
#
And that's how I spent six months at Nasik.
#
We used to stay in that Hotel Raj and that was room number 13, 14 and 15.
#
So I had asked Prashanth why we asked for only these three rooms.
#
And he said only these three rooms have toilets with blue tiles and they look nice.
#
Otherwise every other toilet has white tiles and the joints have kind of yellowed.
#
So he used to say that these are the only three rooms that we would stay.
#
So 13, 14 and 15 number room.
#
So after 1987, I again came back to Blue Star in 1989 for my second stint of implant training.
#
And then I got a job also in Blue Star.
#
So all these years I stayed in that room number either 13, 14 or 15 on the second floor of that Hotel Raj.
#
Have you been there recently?
#
Yeah, that hotel is closed down.
#
Recently I went to Pune from Nasik and I just halted for a minute there, stopped my car there.
#
And that hotel is closed down.
#
I remember we used to pay 40 rupees a day as rent there.
#
And they used to give us a room on Monday to Friday.
#
But they used to not have any other guests in those three rooms.
#
So they would fill those rooms when all other rooms are filled.
#
We had rapport with the owners.
#
I think the Jaju family in Nasik, they used to own that hotel.
#
Hotel Raj and Hotel Raj annex.
#
And then there was a fantastic biryani place down there called Cafe Park.
#
And then there was a Raymond showroom there, which that family had a franchisee for Raymond.
#
Very interesting times.
#
And we used to travel by auto, the auto rickshaw.
#
And that was one rupee per seat.
#
So there's a small route and everybody would go by share auto.
#
And they would have three or four passengers in the backside and two passengers in the front.
#
And you pay a rupee and you travel like that.
#
So that was my first thing to learn a lot.
#
So the client was the India Securities Currency Note Press.
#
But it was being done by the central government contracting being called CPWD,
#
Central Public Works Department.
#
So the Blue Star contract was with CPWD.
#
CPWD's client was India's Currency Note Press.
#
So that was a three-way EA.
#
So the user was Currency Note Press.
#
And CPWD had their regional office in Bombay.
#
And we used to kind of interact for any major work.
#
We used to interact there.
#
That's how my six months passed.
#
Came back to college again for the sixth semester and seventh semester.
#
Engineering was interesting.
#
So everybody had gone to their implant trainings in the fifth semester.
#
Sixth semester, we all came back.
#
We had a group of friends.
#
And we were more in the canteen.
#
So if you know, Visitei Visitei is in Matunga.
#
And that entire area is full of colleges.
#
Next to Visitei was the Khalsa College.
#
Opposite Visitei was UD City, which is now, I think,
#
University of Chemical Technology used to call then.
#
Then SNDT, which was the women's college down there.
#
So all these five, six colleges.
#
And there was one bus stop there.
#
And we used to sit on that bus stop and we used to play cards.
#
Or either we were on that katta or we used to be on that or in the canteen.
#
We had friends, five, six friends of us.
#
So Nandu Patkar, who was my cousin of my friend, close friend Ravi.
#
Then there was Mahesh, Mahesh Kadam.
#
Then there was Girish Nare.
#
Then there was Bhumesh Patil.
#
There was Sanjay Maikar and me.
#
And then there were a couple of kids from Dombivli who were also,
#
but they were on off in our group.
#
But these six people, we were together and we used to play cricket.
#
We used to play cards on that katta.
#
And watch SNDT girls passing by.
#
Watch SNDT girls passing through.
#
Nandu had a crush on one girl and he wanted to ask her some day out.
#
And I think he even went and,
#
I remember that girl used to stay in the building next.
#
And she used to go to some college and used to come back by that bus there.
#
I think that was the car number.
#
We used to call that girl MVC 69.
#
And Nandu used to kind of wanted to ask her out.
#
And I think he made a fiasco of that.
#
He kind of stumbled on, I don't remember that exactly.
#
But something like that happened, yeah.
#
So sitting on that katta was one.
#
But I think I remember one distinct memory we have.
#
I don't know which year is that.
#
But Javed Mian Dad was playing.
#
And that was, I think, who was that bowler?
#
Chetan Sharma, six on the last ball.
#
I think it was 1986 in Sharjah.
#
So I think that memory I have very clear.
#
We had a damn mad headache after that.
#
Because we were listening to that match very intently.
#
And then last ball and that six Chetan Sharma, six Mian Dad.
#
And we were like major headache.
#
That was a very distinct memory on that katta.
#
We were sitting on that katta and we were listening to match.
#
So that was an interesting time.
#
We came back to college, spent sixth and seventh standard.
#
Nothing great in the college.
#
Typical studies, passed through the exams.
#
Nandu was a very sharp kid.
#
He was a very intellectual, very, very intelligent boy.
#
Girish Nare, another intelligent boy.
#
Very studious, very good at maths.
#
I was never good at maths.
#
Like Naren is good at maths.
#
Naren can understand calculus.
#
Naren can understand integration.
#
I should tell the listeners you're referring to our mutual friend Naren Chinoy.
#
So I always had a phobia of maths.
#
I don't know why, but I had.
#
When Naren keeps saying that our math was bad because teachers were not good.
#
I agree to some extent.
#
But I never was inclined towards maths in a way.
#
But these kids were very good.
#
And we used to have these exams.
#
So what used to happen is there would be all these six subjects that we had for semester.
#
So maths was there for first year and second year.
#
And maths, you would get 50 marks on paper.
#
And every Monday, two exams would happen every Monday.
#
And the best of three exams, they would kind of take for the final.
#
So the final exam would have a weightage of 50-50.
#
So your unit test weightage of 50% and final exam weightage of 50%.
#
Nandu and Girish, they used to get 50 out of 15 maths.
#
And Nandu was damn arrogant.
#
So there used to be three or I think three questions or two questions of 25 marks each.
#
Or I think three questions of 15 plus one small question of five marks.
#
And they would give that there are total eight questions, attempt any three.
#
So Nandu would solve all eight and he would write a note that check any three.
#
That kind of a confidence he used to have.
#
Because the marks of first two exams would be out and then people would not take the third exam.
#
So to keep the attendance, they would not give the marks of the second exam until the third exam is done.
#
But Nandu and Girish were such kids that they would never used to sit third exam.
#
Because they were so confident that in the second exam they would get good marks.
#
They will never sit for third exam.
#
How much would you get in 50?
#
Out of 50, I would get something like 27, 28.
#
Nothing more than that.
#
I think that was what I was.
#
20 was a passing mark then.
#
But 27, 28, max I used to get.
#
But other subjects I used to do pretty good.
#
Even today, math, I'm scared.
#
I understand numbers well.
#
My percentages are well.
#
I can quickly do that mental math.
#
But if you ask me calculus, if you ask me integration, I could never understand that.
#
One of my friends, when he told me the industrial application of what he learned in terms of
#
integration, I was kind of zapped.
#
So that I will come back to you.
#
That point, interesting point later on, maybe.
#
Okay, so I came back to college doing this stuff.
#
Passing through, going through the motions and kind of wanting to get out.
#
I think by that time, the big strike of Bombay cotton mills had already Dutta Samant was the
#
And Dutta Samant had basically done pretty well of getting good salaries or good wages
#
for the premium automobile then, which was at Kurla Vidyavihar.
#
He had now entered into the mills.
#
And the unions were kind of becoming.
#
There used to be a Congress led union.
#
And then Dutta Samant had entered.
#
And Dutta Samant was, I think, kind of, I'm a little hazy there.
#
But my father, so the mill strikes had already started then.
#
But my father used to go.
#
He used to kind of, because he was not part of that union, so he used to go there.
#
And the whole thought process was that this is going to kind of, that entire thing is
#
So the money is not going to be there.
#
So quickly finish your education, pass well, get a good job was the thought process.
#
In Kannamwar, typically we had one guy, I still remember, we used to stay in building
#
number 51, that is building number 47.
#
There was one guy called Modak.
#
I don't know if you know, there's a typical Maharashtrian guy with a very thick mustache
#
And he had done his diploma of mechanical engineering from, I think, Sabu Siddique.
#
And then he had got a job with Mahindra and Mahindra.
#
And we used to call him a successful guy, because he basically did engineering well,
#
He was already, I think, booking a house somewhere.
#
And he was going around with one girl known and he was about to get married.
#
So Dilip Modak, yeah, his first name is Dilip Modak.
#
So Dilip Modak was an ideal boy.
#
And girls would fall for him in our Kannamwarnagar for him.
#
And he was kind of the most eligible bachelor kind of thing.
#
So he had influence of Dilip Modak.
#
And he had already had a Chetak scooter, Bajajka scooter, Chetak or Cub.
#
And so he was a model hero for us.
#
Everybody would aspire to be Dilip Modak.
#
That kind of thought process we had.
#
So I was basically wanting to pass through the engineering college as fast as possible.
#
Again, eighth semester implant training came in.
#
So I went to Bluestar again.
#
Bluestar had, because that site was still going on.
#
That was a long project, three-year project.
#
So that site was going on.
#
And when I checked up with Bluestar, they said, yeah, we know you have spent time.
#
And that site is still on.
#
And that site always used to have students from VijayTI who would kind of go for the
#
fifth semester implant training.
#
So mine was the fifth semester implant training and eighth semester.
#
So when that fifth semester earlier guy left, I joined in sometime in December or January.
#
And I did my eighth semester.
#
That was in 1988, no, 1989, January to June.
#
I did my second implant training in Bluestar.
#
After the implant training, you are to now look for a job.
#
I think I passed out decent.
#
I think I got some 70% marks, which is supposed to be good.
#
But I was never in the class.
#
I had left that hope of getting a rank because I had seen these smart kids around me.
#
So I came to job, gave interviews.
#
So we used to have campus interviews and we used to get letters from companies.
#
So I said, no, I want to kind of look out for options.
#
So Bluestar, I was pretty sure they would give me a job.
#
So I was like comfortable.
#
I never had a formal discussion, but Prashant was there and Prashant kind of was for me.
#
And he was my mentor because he was my boss for fifth semester and eighth semester.
#
So it was kind of easy.
#
But I said, I want to look for options.
#
Then there was this company called Excelo Machine Tools, which was in Thane.
#
And Selo Machine Tools is what I went for an interview.
#
And I think I did well and I got later from them.
#
I think a few of my friends were, they were saying that there is an interview in Taj.
#
Mahesh Kadam had gone and a couple of others had gone.
#
And I also went with them.
#
We went to Apollavanda, the Kullabawala Taj, main Taj.
#
And I first time entered Taj then.
#
And it was like opulence and kind of the Polish thing.
#
And then they took us for interview.
#
And again, you see the front office there and those girls and beautiful saris and that entire
#
opulence and entire fantastic.
#
That feeling was very interesting.
#
And then I went for my interview.
#
And because I had done my projects in air conditioning and air conditioning is a big
#
part of projects in the hotel industry, because every new project would have major air
#
conditioning for the entire hotel.
#
They kind of selected me.
#
But initially the job was of maintenance engineer.
#
And that was basically maintain the kind of air conditioning infrastructure in a typical
#
So Excel and machine tools was out.
#
I formally went to Blue Star and Blue Star offered me a job.
#
So I had Blue Star appointment later and I had Taj appointment later.
#
And I was wanting to decide.
#
And because of the overall glamour of that hotel industry, I said, Taj may jate yaar,
#
Because Blue Star toh maini kiya hai.
#
But then I said, no, Prashanth is somebody whom I can trust or who would kind of I should
#
So I talked to Prashanth and he made me sit and he said, no, no, you are coming to Blue
#
So I said, why Prashanth?
#
Prashanth said, boss, tenko maintenance engineer ka job mila hai.
#
Maintenance engineer means you will be in the basement of the hotel.
#
You will never be in the ground floor and first floor and third floor of the lobby.
#
You will never be there.
#
You will always be in the basement.
#
Aur basement mein kuch bhi glamour nahi hai.
#
Jo glamour dekhne ko tu jaa rahe hai, kuch bhi nahi hai.
#
Second is that even if you get a chance to go upper floor, that is when the guest is
#
not there and you have to repair AC, which is not working.
#
So you have to do it fast because if AC not working in a five-star hotel is something
#
And third is that ke projects mein if you do it successfully, you will get some kind
#
of kudos, some kind of appreciation.
#
Oto thankless, maintenance is a thankless job.
#
What you are doing is your job.
#
You are not doing anything great.
#
So remember all these things.
#
I think the penny dropped then and I said, yeah, what he is saying is sense.
#
Basement mein hi rena padega, ho hi dekhna padega.
#
Then I decided against it.
#
And I think that was another pivotal point.
#
And that's how I think I joined Blue Star in 1989, sometime in June, July.
#
And that became kind of my professional career.
#
And Prashant was my boss and the same project was there.
#
In Nasik, we got one more big project.
#
So India Security Press, which is a sister concern or close by the India Security Press
#
is where the bond papers are printed.
#
The passports are printed.
#
So all anything, which is a securities kind of paper is printed in India Security Press.
#
So they were also modernizing then in around 89 and that project came in.
#
So these two projects were huge projects.
#
And that's how I started kind of working in formal professional career in Blue Star.
#
When I say Prashant is a huge influence is because during my entire period,
#
Prashant kind of boosted my confidence a lot.
#
Prashant used to stay at the other.
#
So just behind Siddhivinaya temple, there is a society called Kamana Society.
#
He sold that house now.
#
But he used to stay in Kamana Society on I think some 11th or 12th floor, a very nice house.
#
And Prashant taught me a lot in terms of Bombay.
#
That's where I learned that you will understand the city
#
by walking on foot or by going around the city.
#
Now our office was in Worli.
#
We used to kind of meet at Dadar many times.
#
And we used to go to town.
#
There is a refrigeration accessories market in CP Tank.
#
There is something behind the rhythm house used to be there.
#
I don't know whether what is the stage.
#
So if you have to buy small, small items, thermostats or ferrules or copper pipes and all,
#
something we need specific, we used to go there and buy stuff.
#
Prashant would always take me from different, different routes.
#
So he said, company paisa deri hai tera travel ka.
#
So go from one route other and understand the city well.
#
So sometimes we would go from the Aliyavarjung road,
#
which is the one road which goes from Port Trust side of area.
#
Sometimes we would go from Dr. Ambedkar Road, which is the Dadar Titi Road.
#
Sometimes we would go from the Pedder Road and the Chowpatty Road.
#
And that's how he showed me Bombay.
#
Now, that's where I got to understand Bombay in a real sense.
#
And Prashant used to say that if you have money,
#
then why do you have low self-esteem and confidence?
#
I used to hesitate going to a good restaurant.
#
He said that the person who is sitting there and you, there is no difference.
#
He has money to pay for that.
#
If you have money to pay for that bill, then what is the difference?
#
Then there's no difference between you and him.
#
And that used to be the case.
#
So he used to always take me around to good restaurants.
#
There was a place called Neelam in Mahim.
#
We used to go and eat there.
#
He made me kind of eat at good places.
#
A couple of times he took me to Taj restaurants and we ate there.
#
So he actually built a lot of confidence in me in a way.
#
And he had always been that good mentor.
#
I think everybody needs to have that kind of a mentor early in life
#
if your professional career has to kind of flourish.
#
That's a confidence booster.
#
Kind of somebody who believes in your abilities,
#
who teaches you to do things right.
#
So Prashant, I learned business writing from Prashant.
#
Today, my mails are pretty concise, emails are concise.
#
I know how to set a context in an email.
#
I know what I need to tell.
#
What I know, what I don't want to tell, I would keep it.
#
I don't want to discuss or I don't want to write it at this stage.
#
All that is training from Prashant.
#
And Prashant used to kind of make four, five, six, seven drafts of letters
#
that we used to write to our client.
#
And he was very, very kind of systematic,
#
very, very perfectionist in a way, perfectionist about it.
#
And why he used to do that?
#
Because at that time there was no computer.
#
So we used to write letters.
#
So we used to type, get them typed.
#
So he would write a draft, final draft.
#
Then that final draft used to go to a typing center
#
and then the typing center guy would type it.
#
And I think just then those Godrej electronic typewriters had come.
#
So if it is a routine letter, then we would do it cheaper.
#
So on a manual typewriter.
#
But if it is a letter which is going to a senior supertending engineer
#
or a chief engineer with a copy to executive engineer and all that.
#
And if it is something which is very important,
#
crucial point we are talking about,
#
then we would do it on an electronic typewriter.
#
And Prashan used to say that,
#
that after going to a typewriter,
#
I don't want to have white ink on that.
#
So it has to be perfect.
#
My draft has to be perfect so that I can give it in a right manner.
#
And we did not have, so then spellings,
#
how do you spell things right and all that.
#
So he used to have a dictionary.
#
And if we are stuck with spelling,
#
he would kind of get that spelling right.
#
All these things kind of inculcated,
#
got inculcated into me from Prashan Jadhav.
#
And I think I'm indebted to him.
#
Absolutely fantastic human being who taught me
#
the ropes of professionalism then.
#
And he kind of made me blossom into my career.
#
So that's basically what Bluestar all about.
#
Spent with Bluestar almost five, six years until 96.
#
I became a resident engineer of Nasik.
#
So I used to stay in Nasik.
#
I used to manage these, both the projects.
#
I then got some other projects also.
#
So there was a Zenitac drug which Glaxo was coming out.
#
So they had a facility which Glaxo was a client.
#
Then there were other clients in terms of,
#
the Nasik is the entire building is full of grapes.
#
So grape storage used to be a very interesting part.
#
The funny part about grape is that the grapes are kind of taken out
#
early in the morning when the dew is very high.
#
Grape is almost 90% water in it.
#
So you have to store them at almost around 98, 99% of relative humidity.
#
It's like a mist inside the year.
#
And if that relative humidity drops,
#
then the net content of the grape would drop.
#
That means if you have packed, say, 100 kgs of grape,
#
and if the relative humidity is down by 10%,
#
that means it will never remain 100 kg.
#
So it was a state loss of produce.
#
So you have to keep that relative humidity very high.
#
So those grape storages were coming up then in 1990, 1991, 1992.
#
So Blue Star started doing those kind of projects.
#
That was the time again, there were a telephone exchange which were coming.
#
New telephone exchange, E10B was there.
#
It was basically a rack with a thousand lines.
#
And you can extend those racks.
#
And that's how the electronic telephone started coming in, if you remember.
#
That time, those PCOs were there.
#
Public call offices were there.
#
And the telephone revolution started happening then.
#
So there was a company called Natalco,
#
which was manufacturing these E10B racks and I think components for them.
#
So we did air conditioning for that company.
#
That company was in Nasik, Satpur industry listed.
#
So those companies, we were doing work.
#
Blue Star is a fantastic training institution.
#
When I joined in in 1989 as a formal employee,
#
they had a 20-day training course for all the new joiners in the company.
#
And that was done in Pune.
#
Bhandarkar Road, there is a hotel called Hotel Ranjit.
#
And I still remember getting stationed in that hotel for 21 days.
#
And they kind of took us through all, there are some 20, 22 guys,
#
all engineering, either degree or diploma holder who has joined.
#
And everybody was trained thoroughly into,
#
first is theory of refrigeration and air conditioning.
#
But that was around a couple of days.
#
Then sales and marketing, project management, client management, negotiations.
#
Entire thing, we used to get people, experts from different, different field.
#
And they used to train us.
#
And then there used to be kind of mock sessions.
#
So if you're doing a sales pitch, then we had people from,
#
I think that time Hindustan Liver was there.
#
And some coaches used to come from there.
#
And they would coach you for how do you do a sales pitch?
#
And then there were negotiations.
#
And our senior managers used to sit there as a client.
#
And we used to pitch them the projects.
#
And how do you kind of negotiate?
#
I remember there used to be a guy called U.J.Kashid, Uttam J.Kashid.
#
He was subsequently my super boss in Pune.
#
And he was sitting in front of us.
#
And in projects, they would teach us that,
#
how do you negotiate the clauses like penalty?
#
So there was always like this, that if there's a six-month project,
#
and every day of the delay, there will be a penalty of 10,000 rupees.
#
So we were all taught that, if he has put a penalty clause,
#
then you say, if we do early, then we should get incentive also.
#
So we would talk about that.
#
I said, so that was trained.
#
We were trained or we were kind of taught in that session.
#
And so we said, okay, fine.
#
We understood how to negotiate.
#
So we sat and then they put the clause,
#
that we are putting a clause, that mock session, they put a clause.
#
That for penalty would be 10,000 rupees a day if you delay.
#
So we were taught a few days back that, how do you negotiate?
#
So we said, okay, fine.
#
We want incentive also for finishing the project on time.
#
So Kashi had a very flat face.
#
I don't want project to be done before.
#
I want to be done exactly on that same date.
#
So I don't want to give you any incentive.
#
I am happy if you do it on the day I want it.
#
I don't want to give that.
#
And that entire, we were so feeling so smart,
#
that we are going to counter negotiate and all that.
#
So these are practical examples.
#
They taught us how to do that.
#
I have never seen any company giving 20, 22 days to a new trainee
#
and kind of getting all those people together,
#
getting them out of the system, putting them together
#
and training them so well.
#
The Blue Star was a fantastic training institution.
#
And I think that kind of built our professional careers well.
#
Blue Star had a very good culture of doing things right.
#
And that culture was up to the level of mechanics.
#
The people down the line on those who used to do work with hand
#
would never do a wrong thing.
#
They would say that, boss, we will do something which is a jugad now.
#
Jugad word came much later, but that was then.
#
You do something wrong now.
#
And client will have to go for a hell lot of problem later on.
#
So do everything right first time was a good kind of learning.
#
And that culture was there right up to the Blue Star had a strong union
#
and those fights were there between the union staff and the management.
#
But we had seen that culture of doing good work.
#
No union staff or no union employee would do a bad job at site.
#
They would do perfect job.
#
And in air conditioning with the actual installation and commissioning,
#
beautiful work they used to do.
#
So I think Blue Star deserved to be that number one,
#
number two status that they had in India then.
#
And that got kind of that culture got inculcated in me
#
over a period of time in my future career.
#
When I kind of had that motto of doing things right,
#
I think all that came from Blue Star.
#
So that's where the Blue Star life.
#
This was something like around 96.
#
Couple of personal setbacks then.
#
Blue Star people always used to say that,
#
Sudhir, you are less of an engineer and more of a PR person.
#
Because in Blue Star also, I used to kind of,
#
I used to love the supervisor job, the technical job,
#
designing and all that didn't never,
#
really never excited me.
#
And I used to do that only.
#
And people used to, my public relations,
#
which is basically called networking.
#
So my networking skills were very good.
#
I used to manage the government officials very well
#
and kind of get stuff done.
#
There used to be something called escalation clause
#
And if the delay in the project is due to the client delay,
#
and then we would get some price escalation in the project.
#
So I remember studying that clause well.
#
And we used to establish the delays from the client end.
#
So, this is not ready, that is not ready.
#
And we used to show that this particular delay has caused
#
because of which the project,
#
which was originally around 18 months,
#
went on to become almost around 34 months.
#
So during this period, the prices of the material
#
which we had to buy had gone up.
#
So there was a formula, escalation formula.
#
And with that escalation formula,
#
I could actually establish that we deserve some extra money to be,
#
apart from the standard billing,
#
we deserve to be getting some money.
#
So Prashanth helped me in that.
#
But I did that entire calculation and all.
#
And I think during that time,
#
we earned something like 27-28 lakhs on a project of around 1.5 crores.
#
We got some 27-28 lakhs as an escalation from government
#
by establishing the rule, the formula,
#
establishing that the delays have happened because of them.
#
I got appreciation later.
#
And that is what people saw that as my kind of strength.
#
You are good at doing this kind of stuff,
#
not the engineering stuff, really.
#
And in 1996, I quit Bluestar.
#
I had some money in the bank and I just took a jump.
#
And one of my friends, my close friend Ravi,
#
he has an elder brother called Yogen.
#
And Yogen had a group of friends
#
and they were into a real estate project in near Bombay.
#
And they were looking for somebody to work with them and do marketing.
#
And because of my PR skills and all,
#
they said, I'm kind of a good person to do that.
#
And that's how I started working with them.
#
So that's where I kind of quit.
#
This was more of a semi-job, semi-business kind of thing
#
because I was working with known people.
#
And yes, I was getting certain salary,
#
but I had full freedom on what to do, what not to do.
#
So this was a project on the Gujarat highway,
#
interesting farmhouse concept that they had built.
#
Agricultural land, I think 10,000 square feet land.
#
And by the agricultural law,
#
you have to be an agriculturist to own that land.
#
And with that land, you can build around 1,500, 1,600 square feet farmhouse on that land.
#
So this people concept was that you give a 10,000 square feet land with lot of trees
#
so all the entire kind of the vegetation, the trees lined up and all, everything done.
#
And then build a house also that's an optional at extra cost.
#
And that was, I think, some 5-6 lakh rupees,
#
4 lakh rupees they were selling for that plot then.
#
And my job was to basically sell those plots.
#
So I started doing that.
#
And I said that, so these guys were typically guys from the other area.
#
And they were all, this was the family land that one of the partners had.
#
The second partner was my friend's friend.
#
And they were kind of doing the entire cultivation and infrastructure development.
#
So I said that, if I have to sell this, who is your typical audience?
#
Spending 4 lakh, 5 lakh rupees is something that was not small stuff then.
#
They already had some, there were some around 60-70 plots.
#
They had sold around 20 plots by then.
#
So anchor customers were there.
#
They had to sell remaining 40 plots.
#
And that was almost around 1.82 crore revenue.
#
So I said, if it is on the Gujarat highway, then you need to look at Gujaratis.
#
So they would look at something on the way to their native place or something like that.
#
That highway was notorious for traffic jams.
#
Now it has become smooth, but it was just a single road then.
#
And you really had to, no, it was a double road then.
#
And it was difficult to travel there.
#
It was just beyond Manor.
#
So I said that we have to focus on Gujaratis.
#
We have to focus on rich people.
#
So let's do advertisement.
#
They had never done an ad.
#
So I said, let's do advertisement.
#
And we put it on a front page of Economic Times.
#
And this was sometime in early 1997.
#
Front page of Economic Times, some 70,000 rupees for a Saturday morning ad.
#
And that was home away from home.
#
I think interesting kind of response we got.
#
And I started selling that.
#
So basically get a response from people, follow up with them,
#
take them for a site visit, all that done.
#
I still remember we used to take people by a jeep called Sumo.
#
And we used to hire Tata Sumos and take people from Bombay, wherever they are.
#
So we pick them up and take them to that place near Manor, show them and bring them back.
#
That was the kind of cost is incurred by us.
#
So that's a marketing expense.
#
I think I did that for almost one, one and a half year.
#
And kind of interesting journey.
#
These people were already in some debt.
#
And though they could sell that for almost around four lakh rupees and plot.
#
Because with this ad and kind of focusing on to better clientele,
#
we could get that rate to five point five, six lakh rupees.
#
But they had spent a lot on cultivation of the land and they were already in the debt.
#
And somehow that project, though we could sell most of the plots,
#
that project did not kind of become viable.
#
And they kind of that entire group went bankrupt.
#
So the entire development could not happen completely.
#
They could not pay money.
#
I think I had a case on me that time because money was not paid by them.
#
But because I was fronting the printer and the printer thought I am one of the owners.
#
I was one of the directors or partners.
#
And then there was a 138 and I that just come then he and that case was on me.
#
I went through all that court and all, all that stuff happened.
#
But I got out of that in a couple of years because they were kind of folding up
#
and closing down the entire venture.
#
And that was the time I had.
#
So during 96, once I had met one of my college friend.
#
He was not from my group.
#
He was also working with an air conditioning company distributor
#
called those carriers distributor in Bombay.
#
And he was into sales and marketing.
#
I was more on the project side.
#
And we sat in the evening and I was already a bit into philosophy.
#
Then I used to read J Krishnamurthy.
#
I used to read Brajnish and all.
#
So I think I must have given some funders and he thought I'm a deep thinker.
#
Oh, these guys we turned out very differently.
#
So we were thinking about kind of.
#
During this end period of this real estate venture,
#
Purandar also had quit and he had kind of joined this company.
#
And then in three, four months, we had folded up.
#
So Purandar and we were together.
#
We were doing the sales and marketing for this real estate company.
#
So when this company went into that bankruptcy proceedings,
#
we were kind of out because we were basically employee only.
#
So we said, let's do something.
#
And Purandar was more of air conditioning background.
#
And I was kind of bored.
#
I said, I don't want to do that.
#
Let's do something different.
#
And this was around 98.
#
And we were thinking, what should we do?
#
And we said, we have to get into sunrise industries.
#
So what are the industries which are forward looking?
#
So one is healthcare and second is software.
#
So I said, we don't understand anything in software.
#
Because we were not at all trained into software anyway.
#
So let's do something in healthcare.
#
And then again, one of the friends in the group,
#
he I think used to work with Peregrine investment in Singapore.
#
And he was doing some work with Lilavati Hospital in Bombay.
#
And he had kind of told us, we can do something interesting in healthcare.
#
And so he said, Lilavati Hospital is where we are looking,
#
giving them some kind of a funding or something.
#
But they are looking for marketing the hospital.
#
Will you do marketing of hospital?
#
And I said, let's do it.
#
Because we have done real estate marketing.
#
And me and Purandar, we said, okay, fine.
#
And parallelly, we were looking for some projects to be done.
#
So those were the times of early VC funding and IDEA.
#
There's 98 IDEAs around new ventures.
#
I think US was really hot then.
#
And those concepts were coming in in India.
#
So we had this idea of, we had this friend of ours,
#
he had this idea of, we can do some integrated healthcare institution,
#
And we were looking for, let's look at feasibility.
#
And if we can create a good IDEA and good business plan,
#
then we could look for funding.
#
So IDEA was to create a maternity hospital,
#
virtual maternity hospital of 2000 beds.
#
So you basically bring, so typical nursing homes
#
or typical maternity homes in Bombay are around 15 to 20 beds.
#
And these are typically run by obstetricians, gynecologists,
#
female or male, and 15, 20 bed.
#
Bombay had something like 200 such, not 200, 600,
#
700 such institutions in Bombay.
#
And we said, we will pick up something like 100 good nursing homes,
#
the maternity homes, and connect them through internet
#
and kind of build a central system
#
and make a virtual 2000 bed hospital.
#
So 100 such hospitals into 20 bed, 2000 bed hospital.
#
So you can do a patient management system together.
#
You can basically, what happens typically in India
#
is that if it is your, the girl, the married woman
#
would basically, first trimester she would do
#
when she's at her husband's place.
#
And then they would move for the maternity to her parents' place.
#
So they would generally look for gynecologist or obstetrician
#
who is close to their parents' place.
#
So they would travel from wherever they are to the parent's place
#
and take that first trimester consultations.
#
But the delivery would happen at that particular institution.
#
Now, can we kind of port data with current physician
#
Can we do economy of scale by buying?
#
So buy the kind of consumables, buy operation,
#
theater equipment all centrally
#
so that you can basically reduce the cost and improve the margins.
#
Can you improve patient experience?
#
A fantastic idea that was, but too early.
#
And so we said, okay, there are a lot of ideas to do.
#
And because we were doing only maternity,
#
so there was uniqueness in terms of consumption pattern.
#
The consumables were kind of similar.
#
If you are doing multiple verticals of healthcare,
#
then there are needs are very different.
#
But when you are doing a single vertical maternity,
#
then you had very few items and then your numbers would be very high.
#
So economies of scale would be great.
#
So that was the whole idea.
#
So we met somebody who would virtually connect this.
#
So we said was the connecting method.
#
And that consultant said that one we said would cost you
#
one we said connectivity would cost you something like five lakh.
#
So we said five crores only for connectivity.
#
And I think that kind of money we would not get
#
and I think I still somewhere have some 40 or 50 maternity homeowners I had met.
#
And we had a questionnaire where I had done the user survey
#
to understand whether it will work or not.
#
And we did survey, but then we kind of shelved it
#
because it was not viable then
#
because of the internet connectivity cost then.
#
So while we were doing this,
#
we got this project of Lilavati Hospital marketing that.
#
So what is hospital marketing currently?
#
But what they were wanting to do is retail we will get.
#
They wanted to connect with corporate.
#
So corporate what happens is that all the big organizations in Bombay
#
and nearby Bombay would basically have a healthcare officer or a doctor on payroll.
#
And these people would offer medical treatment free for the employees.
#
This was not all banks had this, multinationals had this facility.
#
And what used to happen is that already established hospitals like Bombay Hospital,
#
Jaslok, Hinduja, Bridge Candy.
#
What they would do is that they would have a deposit given by the company.
#
And company's doctor or HR head would give a letter
#
saying that this particular person needs a treatment at your hospital.
#
So give the treatment and send the bill to the company.
#
Company will settle it in 15 days time.
#
So what happens is that hospitals would say what is the guarantee that you will pay.
#
So they used to give some interest free deposit.
#
So one lakh, two lakh rupees deposit used to be there.
#
And some hospitals used to say that we will keep you special two beds always for you.
#
So that even if the hospital is full, you have a guaranteed bed for your employee.
#
So that used to be their pitch key.
#
We have tied up with Hinduja.
#
We have tied up with Bombay Hospital and we have guaranteed bed there.
#
I remember State Bank of India used to spend almost 50 crore rupees in those time per year
#
on medical treatments in the hospitals.
#
So that was one product that hospitals could offer to the industry.
#
Second was the health checkups.
#
So health checkup was a big rage then.
#
So all senior executives would get health checkups beyond 40, beyond 50.
#
So selling health checkup was another product.
#
So our idea was that if Lilavati Hospital is a new hospital,
#
then position them in the market as one of the good hospitals in suburbs.
#
Because everything was until Mahim.
#
The Hinduja was farthest at Mahim.
#
Nothing great was there beyond Mahim.
#
The Lilavati was in Bandra.
#
Bridge Candy, South Bombay.
#
Bombay Hospital, South Bombay.
#
Everything was in South Bombay.
#
And the BKC was developing.
#
BKC had a lot of new companies coming up.
#
So it was basically accessible for them.
#
So that was the whole idea.
#
So me and Purandar, we got that project through help of this friend.
#
And we started working on that.
#
Our model was basically consult them on marketing strategy,
#
the sales and marketing strategy.
#
Hire staff on their payroll and train that staff and build business.
#
So tie up with multiple corporates in the Bombay industry.
#
And then sell them inpatient services.
#
So inpatient was very clear that we have these good consultants.
#
So come and we will give you special treatment
#
and your employees will be taken care of nicely.
#
All that kind of value proposition was built.
#
Health check-up was basically we will do better reporting in 48 hours,
#
reporting in 24 hours, something like that.
#
And we will give you better rates.
#
Again, it was more about rates and about comprehensiveness of the packages.
#
So these two products is what we started selling.
#
And I think we had a decent success
#
because Lidlty was a good hospital, very well done.
#
Then I think Shah family, they used to own,
#
it was a charitable hospital,
#
but they used to own diamond business there from Palampur.
#
And hospital was well done.
#
Lot of companies we could tie up.
#
We could tie up almost around 90 odd companies
#
in one, one and a half, two years time.
#
We got them something like 1.3 crore of deposits.
#
This is the interest-free working capital for hospitals.
#
So they use this as a capital straight away.
#
And there is no interest to be paid on that.
#
And any hospital generally works at around 90, 95% occupancy only.
#
So giving, telling that these two beds are for you
#
is like not a big deal.
#
You can always show some two beds random
#
and say that these are meant for you.
#
But that was not a challenge.
#
And we did a pretty good business on the health check-up side also.
#
So that was how, that is how the business.
#
So that's basically was a partnership company called MediManage
#
that I started with Purandhar.
#
That was in way back in 97.
#
So Lilavati administrator basically talked about us
#
And then we got Bhaktivedanta Hospital, which is in Meera Road.
#
We consult, we hire people on their payroll, train them to.
#
So now Meera Road Hospital had the industry around there.
#
So what happens is that though you have a company
#
or the offices somewhere in South Bombay or let's say BKC.
#
The employees are staying all over Bombay
#
and people need employees around.
#
So people used to stay in Borivali, Daisar, Kandivali,
#
the suburbs of western suburbs.
#
They would access Bhaktivedanta Hospital.
#
Also Lilavati and Hinduja and all these hospitals
#
are tertiary care hospitals, which are for higher treatment.
#
So for regular treatment, you would need a secondary care hospital.
#
So Bhaktivedanta was typically a secondary care hospital.
#
So we got Bhaktivedanta Hospital as a client.
#
Then we went on growing this business
#
and then we got Krishna Heart Institute in Ahmedabad.
#
Somebody moved from Lilavati to Krishna.
#
So they kind of invited us there.
#
Then we went to Mahavir Heart Hospital in, I think that's in Surat.
#
We did Unity Hospitals in Mangalore.
#
We did Kamal Nayan Bajaj Hospital in Aurangabad.
#
We did some work for Asian Heart Institute in BKC.
#
So there, because of my engineering background
#
and project management background,
#
we got a project of doing some project management
#
for Asian Heart Institute through a company called HOSMAC.
#
There was this company in Goregaon.
#
They are a hospital architecture and project management expert.
#
They only do hospitals and nothing else.
#
One gentleman called Dr. Vivek Desai used to run that.
#
And he gave us the project.
#
And that's how we got involved.
#
I managed, while Purandas was managing Lilavati Hospital,
#
I managed the Asian Heart project,
#
which was doing some work on to the project
#
using my Blue Star project management skills that was there.
#
So these were multiple projects that we were doing.
#
And interesting work more.
#
So what was happening is that
#
we were basically giving more of our time.
#
And that basically was the model.
#
It was a consulting club delivery.
#
So we had a fixed revenue and we had a variable revenue.
#
During that period, one of my friends in Nasik,
#
he runs a pharma company.
#
So that one short stint,
#
I went back to Nasik and stayed for one, one and a half year.
#
So he has a pharma company and it was typical,
#
no innovation, regular products.
#
And they basically, small company,
#
make regular products and sell them in the
#
North Maharashtra area.
#
So beyond Nasik, Nasik,
#
so Dulia, Jalgaon, Malegaon, and the Busawal area.
#
So that was an interesting experience.
#
So I took that project up for one, one and a half year.
#
And I kind of stayed in Nasik and did that.
#
A lot of learning that happened during that period.
#
So it was basically sales and marketing of pharma products.
#
This typical, this company had three, four products.
#
One was the iron, vitamin, and calcium syrup,
#
which is typically sold to physicians or orthopedics
#
as a staple requirement, basically dietary requirement.
#
Then they had a painkiller for kids.
#
So that was typically Paracetamol A.
#
And then they had something as Alprozolam,
#
which is the anti-anxiety medicine called Ateez.
#
So these three, four products they had.
#
And my job was to basically train the reps,
#
the medical reps in multiple places.
#
And that's how I got kind of exposed to doctors.
#
So I used to observe the medical reps and train them
#
in terms of how do you pitch well
#
and how do you get more prescriptions from doctors.
#
And that was amazing learning.
#
That entire belt right from Nasik until Jalga-Udhulia,
#
I got introduced to the medical doctor system,
#
how it works and the kind of incentives there.
#
You will not believe, doctors used to be given kind of,
#
you give me these prescriptions and you will get one tola,
#
two tola of gold after doing this much of quota.
#
And that kind of targets doctor used to get.
#
And nobody used to feel anything wrong.
#
People would be like pharma companies are giving this
#
and people used to kind of do this.
#
Yes, there were the big companies would always be on the,
#
we'll not do all this stuff,
#
but the low end companies would do gimmicks like this.
#
This friend's company, they were not into all this gold and all.
#
They wanted to do ethical kind of business.
#
But you are not doing any innovation.
#
So how do you kind of differentiate?
#
And that's where I think me and one of my friends,
#
we were doing this together.
#
So we basically looked at it very differently.
#
We said that if my product is me to product,
#
then I think personal relationship is how you can sell it.
#
And you need to build that personal rapport with that doctor
#
for getting the prescriptions.
#
And that's where you need to really, really think differently.
#
Because at one side you are fighting with all the big giants.
#
So I think Sun Pharmaceuticals and Indico.
#
I remember big companies used to sell the same product
#
and you are not differentiating anything.
#
And your doctor does not have any botheration about price
#
because the buyer is different.
#
So you have to prescribe that.
#
And what is the basis on which you are prescribing?
#
Because all products are same.
#
So what is so different if there are so many products?
#
It was always my rapport with the medical rep,
#
the doctor's rapport with the medical rep
#
is what would decide whom would he give the prescription to.
#
But does a rapport beat the tola of gold?
#
Sometimes some doctors, yes.
#
There were distinctly two typical types of doctors
#
One who would tola of gold
#
or you are taken out to let's say Thailand for conference
#
and all that, that is one type.
#
And second type is I will do right
#
and I will not kind of do things which are like this.
#
I saw the doctors who were studied from Pune and Bombay
#
would not get into this jugglery.
#
They were into these areas
#
but they would not get into these kind of practices.
#
Doctors from other areas.
#
So this is my, I am not doing any value judgment.
#
This is my observation that I had kind of had.
#
But I realized that this rapport can help build prescriptions
#
and getting prescription was very important.
#
And doctor's attention span is very low.
#
So the medical rep has to,
#
so all reps would target on with the doctors
#
who have potential to give prescription.
#
That means everybody would go to those doctors
#
because everybody is targeting them.
#
So that was another challenge.
#
So I have these two, three stories
#
where I kind of learned the power of personal relationships
#
and how do you build those kind of personalized stuff,
#
personalized relationship with the clients.
#
There was this doctor in Dulia, a psychiatrist
#
and he would not give any expression to anybody.
#
No expression, nothing.
#
He would listen to you and he said, okay, fine.
#
And you just kind of, so there is to be a visual aid
#
and you show about products characteristics
#
and you kind of flip board.
#
It used to be a flip board.
#
So you say my product name is this, this, this, this
#
typical rote, the way they used to talk about a rote talking,
#
rote learning, rote talking.
#
And you end your name or you end your pitch with,
#
so you would get some 30 seconds
#
or maybe 20 seconds with the doctor.
#
And you kind of talk about your product name again, again
#
and ask for prescription and then leave samples on the table,
#
which the doctor would use for needy patients.
#
The samples would go to needy patients.
#
This doctor never used to give any expression
#
whether he has liked the product.
#
He would never ask any questions, nothing.
#
And he was a psychiatrist.
#
So I think he knew the art of negotiation or whatever
#
And I said that, but he had a very good prescription
#
because he had a lot of patients in Dulia.
#
And I would wonder that how to crack this.
#
And one day I saw a cassette of Rajneesh behind him.
#
And then I said that, this looks like Rajneesh's follower.
#
Then I had seen his certificate.
#
So he was from Pune, I think Sasun or some college,
#
medical college, Pune, BJ Medical or Sasun.
#
He had passed out from there.
#
I think he has done post-graduation also from Pune.
#
So I said that he must have had some influence of Rajneesh
#
because Rajneesh Osho Ashram was there in Pune, Koregaon Park.
#
And he must have kind of, and doctors are known to be
#
kind of little wacky in terms of these influences
#
and the philosophical leanings and all.
#
So next time what I did was that I went to Munasik.
#
I used to come to Bombay weekend.
#
I went to this Dadar cassette.
#
There used to be a Dadar cassette player, a cassette center.
#
And I picked up that one big set of Sambhog se Samadhi Tuk Rajneesh Ka.
#
The name sounds very cheeky,
#
but it was a very good philosophical discourse of Rajneesh.
#
So I picked up that entire set and I gave that set to that doctor.
#
And that was the first time that doctor started talking to me.
#
And then he asked me that, how do you know this?
#
And I said, no, because of my friends, I've been listening to philosophy.
#
So I have listened to Rajneesh cassettes and I like it.
#
And it's a very interesting.
#
And then he started talking about Rajneesh and Osho.
#
And then he opened up and told that how he was in Pune
#
and how Osho influence was there and how he leaned
#
and how he likes that philosophy and all that.
#
And then he started giving prescriptions to us.
#
So our product was there.
#
There are a lot of other Alprasolam products which were there.
#
But then he started giving us prescription.
#
But this doesn't scale, right?
#
Because this is only one Sudhir and you can only meet so many people.
#
But then this company was also small.
#
And the point is that you use this.
#
The point is that there are influencing models there.
#
So if the leading doctor starts prescribing your product,
#
you take that to others and say that this doctor is prescribing.
#
What stops you from prescribing?
#
And in the medical field, there is a lot of kind of followership that is there.
#
So if my seniors are doing something, I would do that.
#
I think if you really see why Betadine is used in the operation theaters,
#
you ask them that you give them a new product, nobody would take it.
#
Even if it is the same consistency, same product, or even if it is better.
#
My seniors would always use Betadine.
#
And they said that Betadine is the only good disinfectant and I will use Betadine.
#
So that followership is there in the medical field.
#
The second interesting thing is there is a doctor, another doctor in Dulia,
#
huge practice orthopedic surgeon and used to see almost around 250 patients a day.
#
And he had his typical consulting room where he would have four examination beds
#
So all deputies would sit with a prescription pad and they would stand.
#
And this doctor also would stand and a very good orthopedician.
#
And people from all the nearby villages, almost up to 100 kilometers would come to him.
#
And he used to be called Bapu.
#
And he basically was a very nice human being, very good guy.
#
And he used to, he was again from Pune, would never take that tola thing and all that.
#
Rather, he was such a nice guy that after the examination,
#
that if there is a kind of farmer who has come from, so he would ask where are you from and all.
#
And that guy would say that I'm from some village, that village is around 50-60 kilometers away.
#
Then he would ask him that, Baba, do you have money to pay me?
#
So we would say, yeah, yeah, I have bought it.
#
So this 50 rupees he would pay or 20 or 50 rupees, whatever he would show.
#
But they said, okay, fine.
#
But what about going back?
#
And that guy would just smile.
#
And then this guy would not take the consulting fee.
#
He would give him back.
#
And then he would tell the people that whatever medicines are there, give it to this guy.
#
And he would tell him that this 20 rupees is for you to go back.
#
That kind of a beautiful human being.
#
And he used to do that practice.
#
So morning, he used to see around 100 patients.
#
Afternoon, evening, he would see around 100 patients.
#
And afternoon time, he would do surgeries.
#
And because of that numbers, those huge numbers, everybody would again go to prescription.
#
He had four medical shops nearby.
#
Next to his hospital, he had a hospital, I think from 40 bed hospital, orthopedic surgeon.
#
And he had some four medical shops.
#
And all those four medical shops used to survive only on his practice.
#
One single doctor practiced.
#
And I used to go to him, met him multiple times and never could kind of...
#
So once I asked him that, where are you from?
#
So he said, I am from Jalgaon, Dhulia only.
#
I knew that he had studied from Pune.
#
But I had two kind of conversations started, asked him.
#
And then I asked him, what do you miss of Pune that in Dhulia?
#
And he said, the discussion that we used to have on books,
#
the discussion that we used to have on Marathi literature, Marathi drama,
#
My practice is so much that I don't get to socialize much.
#
And I can't discuss about books.
#
And then I started discussing books about him because I had read Marathi pretty well.
#
So I used to discuss books.
#
So then every time, almost around after three, four months, I could crack him.
#
So every month I used to go.
#
So after three, four months, I could really build that rapport with him.
#
And then we started discussing Marathi books, Marathi drama.
#
So we used to go at around 9, 9.30 in the morning, first thing in the morning.
#
And then it became kind of he started giving me time.
#
So he would say that once I was there, so he would stop everybody.
#
And he would say that Sudhir has come to Marathi.
#
And I want five minutes.
#
So no patience was taken.
#
And we used to sit for five minutes, only five minutes, not more than that.
#
And we used to discuss latest Marathi book, latest Marathi drama,
#
what is happening in Pune, what is happening in Bombay,
#
in the Marathi literature scene.
#
And I think that was his connect to Bombay, his connect to Pune.
#
And being connected to that rich world of literature.
#
That was this year because all the medical reps are basically their roads.
#
So nobody would kind of I was I was not really a medical rep.
#
I was a different person altogether.
#
I could create that rapport with him.
#
And with that rapport, I started kind of he started then remembering me
#
and then the company and then the product and then prescription started coming in.
#
I remember we had started new product in that particular month.
#
That was iron, vitamin and calcium.
#
And this guy had this practice of this four examination bench.
#
And what was to happen is that because you are orthopedic,
#
so like you need to kind of remove your clothes and kind of be there.
#
So four curtains, four patients.
#
And so one patient he sees.
#
So somebody is taking a history.
#
The history is told to him.
#
He examines the patient only for three to four minutes, then moves to next.
#
So that person, he wants to now get dressed and get out.
#
And by that time, the doctor has to wait.
#
So those four beds would kind of it was like assembly line
#
where you move from one patient to other and finish as many as possible fast.
#
So he would stop all those and he would talk to me.
#
So when we had this new launch, new product that was we were talking about,
#
which was an iron, vitamin, calcium supplement.
#
I told him that we were basically bringing it next week.
#
And he said, fine, no problem.
#
Whenever you're coming, just let me know.
#
I'll give you a prescription.
#
And whenever you are launching a new product, you need good prescription
#
so that there is a momentum that you create in the market.
#
So I went to the local for those medical counter, the medicine shops,
#
the dispensation shops.
#
And they would not listen.
#
They said, no, no, let the prescription come.
#
Then we will kind of stock your material, your medicine.
#
So we said that, but prescription
#
then doctor will get disappointed here.
#
I gave you prescription and it is not available.
#
So availability is the first thing.
#
Now, how do you break this chicken and egg?
#
I was very confident that if I now had built a rapport with this doctor,
#
so I will get prescription I was confident of.
#
But the medical guy was not at all ready to store the kind of keep the stock on the shelf.
#
So we went to the distributor.
#
The distributor said, no problem.
#
I will give you one to two cases each for this guy.
#
All these four medical shops.
#
I will make an invoice.
#
So take an auto with all eight cases, each case of 10 bottles or 20 bottles each.
#
And you take these 80 bottles.
#
I will make an invoice.
#
You carry it with the auto and stand there and just keep that ready.
#
And the moment prescription comes, you hand over the case to him and say that you dispense now.
#
That's how we had done.
#
So I had my medical rep with me and he was ready.
#
We took 88 cases, 80 bottles.
#
And then I went to this doctor and I told him that today we are doing a launch and we are launching
#
this product in Dulia with you and I want good prescription.
#
So he turns to all his four juniors and he said that iron, vitamin, calcium.
#
That means it can go for every patient of ours.
#
So today, whatever prescription I give, end it with this prescription, this medicine.
#
And he told, and he asked me, but Sudhir, is it available?
#
Because he knew that this is a problem of a small company.
#
You will never get availability.
#
So I said, yes, yes, it is available.
#
And then I went out and then first prescription came.
#
And I was standing at that.
#
So I was following the patient that which patient goes to the medical shop.
#
He went in that medicine.
#
I just kind of indicated my guy to be ready with that.
#
So prescription went on to the counter.
#
And then the guy said IVC Forte, I don't know.
#
And I said, hey, Merah Merah product because all medical rep used to stand.
#
So then I said, I'm in a case lie.
#
And in doing that one day, I think we got some 50, 60 prescription one after other.
#
And there's like every prescription that would come out from doctor
#
would have this product at the end because it was a supplement for bones and blood.
#
And that was a very interesting kind of a story that I still remember.
#
The third interesting story is in Jalgaon.
#
Again, a lady doctor, kind of pediatrics specialist from Pune again.
#
And she was again very literary, wanting to read,
#
wanting Marathi literature, English literature, very well read.
#
And we used to kind of discuss stuff on that.
#
So I never used to talk medical or the product ever with doctor.
#
I said, okay, what is there?
#
My product is also ran product.
#
So what is there to talk about product?
#
Let's talk something else.
#
That was my pitch all the time.
#
And we used to then talk about, so one day,
#
so she used to give me prescription just when I'm around and not much
#
because our discussion was not really great.
#
One day I asked her that, what that you miss in Jalgaon
#
that you would otherwise do in Pune?
#
And she just took, I think, two minutes to think.
#
And then she said that this one particular English author,
#
I forgot where the thriller he used to write, he or she,
#
that also I don't know what that author was.
#
I used to love that book, that entire series of the books.
#
I don't get those books here anymore.
#
I miss reading those books, is what she said.
#
And I said, fine, and just kept remembering that.
#
Next time when I came to Bombay, if you remember in 90s,
#
there used to be these roadside vendors who would have books.
#
So I went and I remembered that author name then,
#
and I went and picked up one book of that author.
#
And then I told, I knew around, so I used to buy books on the road
#
because that was the access, the cheap book, 40 rupees,
#
you used to get one book.
#
And then when you give it back,
#
I think they would give you 25 rupees back as a yeah,
#
or you buy another book and give you only 10 rupees
#
or something like that.
#
I don't remember that exactly,
#
but they used to take back those books.
#
So those are used books kind of a thing.
#
So I went to that guy, those three, four guys,
#
who I knew very regularly because I used to buy books from them.
#
And I said that this author, whatever book that you get,
#
from wherever you get your books from, I want all the books.
#
And I just came back and next week or 10 days after when I went,
#
all these guys had taken out some three, four, three, four books of that author.
#
And I built, I think some 20, 25 books library,
#
I kind of a stock I built.
#
And every month when I used to go to Jalgaon,
#
I would give one book to that lady, doctor, one that every time.
#
And she started remembering me as that book guy,
#
not as that medicine guy.
#
And that rapport kind of gave me prescription.
#
I remember these three stories very distinctly because
#
how a human connect can actually help.
#
but I think there is always a human connect in that commerce
#
when all other things are kept aside.
#
Yeah, product, superiority, the value proposition, all that is there.
#
But ultimately, there are two individuals interacting with each other.
#
And in the whole process, when all things are same,
#
if you want to get business,
#
if you want to tilt that business to your side,
#
I think this human connection works a lot, it matters.
#
And I think in today's world also, I think it still matters.
#
Yeah, I'm not kind of undermining the product.
#
I'm not undermining the value proposition.
#
I'm just talking about all things equal.
#
It's human connection that matters.
#
And I think as much as a human connection that matters,
#
it is also food that matters because humans have to eat
#
and that's how we keep going.
#
So let's take a quick commercial break.
#
And on the other side of the break, we'll continue your fascinating journey.
#
Hey, the music started and this sounds like a commercial, but it isn't.
#
It's a plea from me to check out my latest Labour of Love,
#
a YouTube show I am co-hosting with my good friend, the brilliant Ajay Shah.
#
We've called it Everything is Everything.
#
Every week, we'll speak for about an hour on things we care about,
#
from the profound to the profane, from the exalted to the everyday.
#
We range widely across subjects and we bring multiple frames
#
with which we try to understand the world.
#
Please join us on our journey and please support us
#
by subscribing to our YouTube channel at youtube.com
#
slash Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A.
#
The show is called Everything is Everything.
#
Please do check it out.
#
Welcome back to The Scene on the Unseen.
#
I'm chatting with my good friend Sudhir Sarnovar.
#
We are going through the story of his life,
#
which in different ways is also the story of a nation
#
at a particular point in time, etc.
#
I would forget these big things, but let's sort of continue from there.
#
Like where the narrative ended off was this sort of temporary adventure.
#
I think you said it was one and a half, two years
#
where you were doing this project and all of that.
#
Take me back to how your journey proceeds.
#
Yeah, so our journey was more about doing the hospital marketing and consultancy.
#
And these were the side projects that we got.
#
But we realized very clearly then that everybody was paying us for our time.
#
So it was more of a consultancy project.
#
And if we were, everybody wanted us to be present there.
#
So that was basically, we were saying that,
#
oh, somebody is paying us today, 20,000 rupees an hour.
#
Tomorrow they will pay, let's say, 50,000 rupees an hour and nothing beyond.
#
And we wanted to scale.
#
And that was the kind of thought that we had.
#
So we said, this can't work for long.
#
We need to do something which will basically help us grow bigger than these projects.
#
And that's where we then went back to kind of drawing board
#
and thought about what is that we have in place in the last couple of years,
#
two, two and a half years, what have you earned?
#
And we found that we have earned a good amount of relationship
#
with corporates through these various hospitals,
#
because for typically Bombay hospitals that we marketed,
#
we had the same kind of companies we went to.
#
First time we pitched a treasury care hospital,
#
then we pitched a secondary care hospital and stuff like that.
#
So we said, okay, we have great relationships with hospitals.
#
So we said, okay, fine, if these are there,
#
how can we leverage them for our next business?
#
And that's where we kind of asked the question,
#
what can be scaled where we don't have to be present all the time
#
and what can help us leverage our current relationships?
#
So we said, okay, fine, all these companies,
#
they spend on health care and they are spending on health checkups.
#
But health care is basically being funded through health insurance.
#
And at that point of time, around 2000, the new insurance regulations came in.
#
So insurance opened up.
#
There was this change of third party administrator licenses
#
that were coming up, broken licenses were being given.
#
And companies were spending on health insurance premium.
#
So health insurance is very clear that you basically pay a premium
#
and get health insurance for your employees
#
and their reimbursement claims are done.
#
So we said, why not get into the kind of management of health insurance?
#
And that's how we got into the health insurance marketing.
#
We started with selling health insurance for individuals, very tiny.
#
At that point of time, I knew a few doctors
#
through my Asian Heart relationship there
#
and Dr. Vivek Desai's relationship.
#
So a few doctors, they were basically interested
#
in getting into the business of this health insurance.
#
And they had seen people doing large policies with that.
#
There was the concept of buying health insurance
#
in bulk from insurance company at a really cheap price.
#
And they'd sell it with a premium with a lot of customization to individuals.
#
So they were looking at that as an opportunity and they said,
#
okay, fine, we don't mind investing into your company.
#
I think that said around 40, 50 lakhs is what they would invest.
#
They didn't invest all that.
#
They gave us only, I think, for 14, 15 lakhs to start with.
#
So we started on health insurance selling.
#
We, I think, first break came when we had Development Credit Bank,
#
while we were selling, retailing a product to one of the trustees.
#
He said, why don't you come and kind of pitch to our corporate?
#
And that's where we got a corporate account.
#
I think that time we got some commission of some 3-4 lakh rupees
#
and that was a big sum for us.
#
We had never seen that kind of money coming in in a single deal.
#
And that kind of set the path for us into health insurance broken.
#
So we basically were that broken license.
#
We didn't have a broken license that just come a couple of years ago.
#
And we basically were trying to do a kind of health insurance agency.
#
So I will work with one insurance company,
#
my partner will work with another insurance company,
#
and then we work with some other agent for third insurance company.
#
And that's how we kind of collect the quotes
#
and give it to the insurance to the clients.
#
So you have to give multiple quotes to clients
#
so that they choose one of that,
#
which is basically cost-effective and benefit-rich.
#
So when we started doing this as an agent,
#
we found that what we are trying to do is typically
#
kind of pulling resources from here and there and doing something.
#
The right way to do is to go through a broken license
#
and that we did not have then.
#
And we did not have money also for that.
#
So we focused on getting clients.
#
So we got quick, early clients, good clients through this agency model.
#
One of Purandars Connect was in emphasis.
#
And emphasis was almost around 8,000-9,000 people BPO then in Bangalore.
#
And I still remember we got through Purandars Connect,
#
we got an appointment with their CFO.
#
And that CFO was non-committal.
#
So he said, come to Bangalore and we'll meet.
#
And I think that's the second time I traveled to Bangalore for work.
#
And we asked him what time.
#
He said, I don't know what time, but be there around noon.
#
And we said noon is 12 o'clock.
#
So at around 12.30, we were at the CIS headquarters
#
in I think Koramangala where he used to sit.
#
And he did not call us until I think we got a call at around quarter to nine in the night.
#
Oh wow, you sat there for nine hours.
#
So we were there, we were out.
#
We were not even inside the building.
#
Purandar had borrowed his cousin's car in there, Bangalore.
#
We were sitting in the car and killing time.
#
Time pass, chai, jake, piya and all that.
#
And I think 8.30, quarter to nine, we got a call that Alok is free, you can come.
#
And we went up there at I think some six-floor office.
#
And there was the CFO, Alok Nisra's office.
#
And there was a small round table.
#
I still remember that round Kachka table, three of us sitting.
#
Alok with his both the hands on the table and his chin on the hands.
#
And he's intently looking at us and present.
#
And we started presenting our value proposition to him.
#
And at one point, his eyes were closed and I said, oh, he's sleeping.
#
And then typical Alok, Alok is a very deep voice.
#
Alok said, carry on, carry on.
#
And then kind of again, I started pitching.
#
And we pitched to Emphasis that year.
#
And they liked our pitch and they changed from their current insurance provider to us.
#
That was a huge contract for us, almost around 78 lakhs of premium.
#
And that's a huge premium.
#
And they trusted us at that time.
#
Alok trusted us at that time.
#
And he said, do it, guys, do well.
#
And then we went and we did very good work in terms of their entire management of portfolio
#
When you are working with BPO, their attrition rate is very, very high.
#
Maybe they will churn the entire company in a year.
#
That means they will have 9,000 people living in a year.
#
And you have to, so whenever people leave, you have to kind of move them out of insurance
#
product and add new people.
#
You have to maintain the premium calculations, quite a lot of work.
#
And with that and a few other clients, we kind of built a portfolio of around 20 crore
#
of premium in a couple of years time.
#
And then we said, okay, fine.
#
What we are doing is we are basically working on this license or that license agency license
#
And agent is a representative of an insurance company.
#
So he is actually selling agent of the insurance company.
#
While when you become a broker, a broker is a representative of a client.
#
So on behalf of client, you basically kind of identify solutions in the market and present
#
And then client basically picks it up as a choice.
#
So a broker has more kind of, he's aligned with incentives.
#
Incentives are aligned well with clients' expectations.
#
So we wanted to become a broker.
#
But then to become a broker, we had to pay, I think the capital was some 50 lakh rupees.
#
And we did not have 50 lakh rupees then.
#
And we asked our partners, the doctors who were there, and they were not really sure
#
so much of money to be put in or not.
#
We actually, some insurance company officers, they were so fond of us that they talked to
#
these doctors and told them, no, no, no, this is a good business.
#
You guys should invest.
#
But these guys somehow did not.
#
And then as usual, we found a solution.
#
So we got a temporary money, 40 lakh from one of the friends that created AFD.
#
Again, that AFD took a loan, individual loan, put that loan, individual loan as a capital
#
into this new, broken company, then made a video of that and returned back the original loan.
#
This is a round way of creating capital.
#
So they wanted 10 lakh rupees to be there in AFD, fixed AFD.
#
Other thing can be into your assets.
#
So that's how we created that entire capital of 50 lakhs.
#
Very interesting way of doing it.
#
And we got, we basically applied for that license.
#
I think we applied sometime in 2006, early January, in around eight, nine months,
#
And in 2006, we got our license for the insurance broken.
#
And that's where we kind of, I think the real growth of our organization started because
#
it was a business which we could scale.
#
We didn't have to, me and my partner didn't have to kind of be present all the time.
#
And it was a very interesting business.
#
What was happening at that point of time is that insurance was just opening up.
#
There were a lot of companies who were offering insurance.
#
So the software companies offering health insurance was a key thing in the software
#
And all the software industries were kind of giving coverages of 3 lakh and 5 lakh,
#
They were also offering this coverage to their dependents, which is spouse, children,
#
Now, parents, offering insurance to parents is a very risky proposition because you have
#
a lot of claims and a lot of insurance companies have bled.
#
A lot of corporates have bled the premium because of this.
#
And then the trend came that, yes, the companies will offer insurance coverage to their parents,
#
but that premium will be paid by the employee.
#
And companies will kind of create a cover, get the cover structured from the insurance
#
company, but premium will be paid by the employee on his own.
#
Now, companies said, okay, fine, if the premium is high, then we will kind of give you some
#
installment kind of a structure.
#
So six months EMI company will basically pay through them.
#
So doing this actually increased the complexity of the entire administration.
#
And that's where we kind of worked very well because we took that entire administration
#
So first is that if you have to kind of give insurance cover to parents, many people have
#
That means the price has to be just right, that people feel, yes, this is something which
#
I don't mind investing.
#
And if there is a risk, if something goes wrong with my parents, then I have a cover
#
But if that premium becomes too high, then the numbers come down.
#
And then only those people come who have some claim which is going to come.
#
So my father needs to go for a cataract.
#
Let me buy insurance and then get cataract done.
#
Oh, my father is going to have a knee replacement.
#
So then the insurance doesn't remain viable.
#
That means you need a enough pool of people so that the insurance claims are not much.
#
But at the same time, the premium has to be such that people are kind of afforded.
#
So which means and companies were saying that, oh, we are not going to take this insurance.
#
If the insurance company is ready to push it to my people, and if people are willing
#
to pay the premium, we don't mind offering this cover, which means we had to really,
#
really appeal, make that cover so nice, so good at right price so that the insurance
#
At the same time, people kind of go for it, which means it involved a lot of selling.
#
So we basically then started creating campaigns to sell this insurance to employees where
#
we would kind of create different, different campaigns to make them believe that, yes,
#
they need to go for the cover for their parents.
#
So how do you take care of this is the way you show you gratitude to your parents and
#
all that we created all those campaigns.
#
Also, when you are doing this, you need to kind of do the enrollment.
#
So there is a complexity of getting enrolled, people enrolled.
#
Now we started doing enrollment through email.
#
But then people today would say that, you know, I want to enroll my parents.
#
Tomorrow they would send another mail saying, no, no, no, I don't want because the premium
#
Then the day after tomorrow, they said, no, no, no, I think I should go for it.
#
There were a lot of complexities managing this email.
#
And this is 2007, 2008, the softwares were not so great then.
#
At that point of time, I still remember a company like Citibank used to kind of have
#
open Excel, where people would fill details of their dependents in an Excel file with
#
date of births put in very clearly.
#
So, you know, somebody else's wife's name and date of birth and all that.
#
That's kind of a thing was happening in 2008 because there was no other option.
#
We basically built a software and we made everybody we made kind of enrollment software
#
where people can just go put in their employee ID, put in their date of birth as a first
#
And then they can the first option is to change the password and do the enrollment on your
#
And we built it in such a manner that you just put whom you want to ensure and the
#
software will figure out what plan you can fit in and what is the premium that you have
#
to pay and what is the EMI that will come to you.
#
So we built everything very beautifully and that really took us to places we could by
#
the time in another four, five, six years time, we had clients like Citibank, KPIT
#
Info System, Midday, Accenture, Dow, Kellogg's, Mastic, Nielsen, Parley, Walmart, India,
#
Abbott, DCB, SVC, Camblin.
#
These are all very good murky clients, very large premium Citibank.
#
We started with Citibank for I think some 80 lakh premium in 2009, 2016, 17.
#
They were already at the premium of around some 25, 30 crores.
#
Emphasis same around 74 lakhs.
#
They reached at around 21, 22 crores.
#
So we agree with all these companies.
#
A lot of people helped us, trusting us.
#
We were two young people trying to do something interesting because if you see insurance is
#
actually a business of trust and the more the gray hair, more the trust is.
#
That's the way it operates in India and seniors get kind of advantage.
#
But we two young people were trying to do something different and that a lot of people
#
Let it be Emphasis, Alok Misra, who was the CFO.
#
Then S. Ramakrishnan, who was the later on CFO after Alok.
#
Their HR head, Elango was a very good guy and all these guys, they were handling such
#
They never expected a single favor from us.
#
It was all just purely by you do good work and we will kind of support you.
#
So at only once, I think I went out with Elango for a coffee.
#
He never came out for me.
#
We say that, okay, let's meet for dinner and all.
#
Never, ever these guys came out for dinner or anything.
#
Only once, I think I remember meeting Elango for a coffee and that coffee bill also he
#
Citibank team is amazing.
#
I think we started with people in their HR and then slowly it moved to procurement and
#
There's one gentleman called Madhur Jain.
#
I think he handles more than 1000 crore of purchases every year.
#
He used to be the negotiations person, purchase person from Citibank for many years.
#
We worked very closely with him.
#
Never, ever they would come out.
#
We used to send them birthday bouquets and maybe something.
#
Yeah, I think we only used to send birthday bouquets and every year I would get call on
#
sometime end of December.
#
Madhur will call me and tell me, Sudhir, you sent a bouquet on my birthday.
#
What was the price of that?
#
And I asked him, why is somebody asking?
#
We have to declare in our annual corporate compliances where I have not taken anything
#
So I need to put a value.
#
So there will be a gift.
#
I know the bouquet is fine and we're okay.
#
Then I would tell him that it was a 800 rupee bouquet and then he will write it in that
#
But very upright people used to manage big projects but never, ever expected a penny.
#
And that was really amazing experience when you are working in corporate.
#
When you are working in B2B, we hear so many stories of corruption, so many stories of
#
I scratch your back, you scratch my back.
#
Yeah, we came across some clients, but we always were very clear.
#
We don't want to do that kind of a business.
#
We will do business with people whom we resonate, whom our values match.
#
So we always work that.
#
We kind of build services around what we can give as a value, more and more value that
#
So health insurance is something.
#
So we were a bouquet, a very kind of a boutique health insurance broking company.
#
We focused only on health insurance.
#
98% of our revenue was through health insurance, around 1% through life insurance and 1%
#
through accident insurance.
#
That is the kind of company that we built.
#
By around 2016, we were almost around 120 odd people.
#
Office in Vidyavihar and then office in Bangalore, office in Delhi, a small office in Chennai.
#
And we used to work with these people, almost around 500,000 people by then insured under
#
This is the time when I think the idea other brokers were, there was a little bit of
#
consolidation going on and multinational brokers were kind of into kind of acquisition spree.
#
And then a few of them started talking to us in terms of, would you be interested in
#
And we were looking at that as an option.
#
And we worked, I was not very kind of inclined to sell because I was enjoying what I was
#
It was more of a kind of exercising your ideas, bringing your ideas into kind of reality
#
and living through your values.
#
So I was more focused, but I think my partner wanted to kind of look at option to sell out
#
And people were looking at selling 100% company fully.
#
They didn't want 50% and 50% going in.
#
We started getting these kind of indications right from 2011-12 onwards.
#
But 2014-15 is somewhere a company, Indian Broking Company, which kind of came to us
#
and they started talking to us about kind of acquisition, stock swap, and you get equity
#
into their larger entity.
#
And then you kind of continue doing that.
#
And my partner would kind of get out getting his money for his equity.
#
And we worked with that kind of deal.
#
We were very, our business was very sticky.
#
So emphasis was with us for almost from 2004 onwards until 2016, so 12 years.
#
So insurance typically is a one-year contract.
#
So every year you can change a broker, you can change an insurance company.
#
So you have to fight your business every year, which means you need to give good service.
#
You need to get right good rates for your client.
#
And only then you get a continuation.
#
So every year used to be a fight.
#
And we built very good relationships on the insurance side also.
#
We kind of showed them that how our portfolio can be profitable for them.
#
And they can make, health insurance is a bleeding portfolio.
#
In India, almost around claims ratio was around 130%.
#
Then that means for every 100 rupees of premium, you would give claims on 130 rupees claims.
#
That's a bleeding portfolio.
#
But yes, the insurance companies were making money through other insurance products.
#
So they use this product basically to keep their size bigger.
#
So we still try to make it a profitable portfolio by doing innovative work on structuring the product,
#
ensuring that the claims, there are kind of sharing of cost by the insurance,
#
the employees of the company.
#
We worked on all those things.
#
So with this, the insurance, we looked at kind of this tech sale.
#
In 2016, early 2016, a larger broker from India kind of acquired us and we kind of got exit.
#
So there was a two year period of cooling.
#
We had to transfer all our clients to the company which acquired us
#
because this is all kind of annual revenue.
#
So you have to show that your revenues are really sticky.
#
That's where the valuation comes from.
#
So we had to transfer all the revenues.
#
And I was basically then kind of little, I don't want to do anything in India.
#
Can we do something interesting somewhere else?
#
And this company, they told us that we have a small broking company in Sri Lanka.
#
Would you be interested in looking at Sri Lankan business?
#
And that's how in 2017, I got an opportunity to go to Sri Lanka
#
and basically work there into the broking company.
#
So they had a small insurance broking company there.
#
And when I went there, we started working towards how do we grow that business slowly.
#
I think I worked for three, four months.
#
And once we got news that the number three broker in the market,
#
there's a company called Finlay, which is a very big company in Sri Lanka.
#
Finlay is a part of a Swire group from Hong Kong, which also owns Cathay Pacific.
#
So they had this tea company.
#
So they had multiple businesses.
#
They had almost around 13, 14 businesses.
#
So Swire group, there was some re-structuring was happening
#
and they said, we'll get out of all non-core businesses.
#
So there was this insurance business and there was some other businesses.
#
They were selling off all the businesses and keeping,
#
they were going to remain only in the business of I think tea.
#
There are a lot of big tea plantations that they have in Sri Lanka near Kandy and other places.
#
So we got an opportunity.
#
Our MD there is a cricketer from past, Graham Lubroi.
#
So Graham is the MD there.
#
And I started working closely with Graham.
#
And that time we got this opportunity that this Finlay Insurance Broker,
#
which was number three broker in the market, is up for sale.
#
And that's where I got...
#
So I was told that, okay, fine.
#
Will you lead the kind of acquisition there?
#
And I said, okay, fine.
#
I don't mind doing that.
#
And I started, I think that was one of the big four firms.
#
They were advising them for Stexel.
#
And I learned, we asked them that, what is the price that they have?
#
Now they said that it's a 400 million Lankan, which is not a big sum in rupees.
#
But that was the price quoted at the start.
#
And that's where I learned some part of good accounting,
#
some part of how do you see balance sheets and all.
#
So this Indian company, Broking Company, which had acquired MediManage,
#
the promoter owner is a chartered accountant.
#
So he kind of showed me how do you see balance sheets for acquisition and all.
#
And we found that they're all money,
#
that whatever valuation that they are asking for is on the revenue.
#
And that revenue, so they were asking for a revenue multiple of two.
#
And that revenue was basically into the balance sheet,
#
but not into the real cash flow.
#
So we asked that, if you are showing that your revenue is so much,
#
So they showed that almost around 60, 70% of the revenue was in receivables.
#
That means we are yet to receive this money from insurance company as a fee.
#
If the valuation is multiple of your revenue,
#
then your revenue has to show that it's really a real revenue.
#
Because if you're showing on the books that you have so much of kind of surplus available,
#
then that surplus has to be real.
#
And we asked them to simply go to the insurance company
#
and get a letter of confirmation for balances.
#
And they could not get those confirmations
#
because there were always disputes about those numbers.
#
So what they had done technically is that they had just booked the revenue
#
and showed it into the books.
#
And kind of year over year showing that this is the receivable, this is the receivable.
#
And the receivable figure was huge.
#
And that really those receivables were not real there.
#
Because when we asked for those receivables to be given,
#
confirmed by insurance company, none of them confirmed.
#
So this company, which we started for a negotiation at 400 million,
#
we finally could buy for just 43 million.
#
So we bought this company.
#
I just let that I could lead that entire effort.
#
I love hanging out with people who say things like just 43 million, but carry on.
#
No, it's a Lankan rupee.
#
So it's not really big sum in terms of dollar or INR.
#
There's a lot of learning there that for me,
#
I learned a lot during that entire exercise how to see balance sheet,
#
how to see business in the financial terms and stuff like that.
#
And that's where the joy was.
#
This company, I think, recently become the number one
#
broking company in Sri Lanka now.
#
So that's basically what I did as insurance broking.
#
And then some part, I used to go to Sri Lanka almost every week.
#
Sometimes I have been to Sri Lanka a couple of times in a week also.
#
And it was a very interesting experience of life.
#
While I was doing this, the Medi-Manage stack sale happened.
#
And then I got involved in the broking in Sri Lanka with Finlay Insurance Broking.
#
I was apparently in 2013, I became a part of a group
#
which is a not-for-profit by Harsh Marwala, which is called Ascent Foundation.
#
And this Ascent Foundation is basically an initiative where Harsh Marwala felt that
#
when he was everybody knows he's the Marico Group chairman.
#
And when he started business, he felt that I could not really bounce my thought processes
#
or anything with other than family members.
#
And I really wanted to speak about this with my friends who know business,
#
not friends who are just casual friends or social friends,
#
but people who understand business, people with business.
#
And I could never have such circle.
#
So if I can create a circle like this for entrepreneurs,
#
and if they help each other through their own learnings,
#
then that would be great.
#
And that's how he had started this initiative called Ascent Foundation way back in 2012.
#
I joined sometime in the month of January, 26th January 2013.
#
That's almost 10 years now.
#
And the Ascent Foundation, what it does is that it brings around 10 to 11
#
different entrepreneurs together.
#
They have a threshold, so they will bring entrepreneur of similar business stage together.
#
So if you are a manufacturing company, then your revenue could be 50 crores.
#
If you are a services company, then it is 10 crores.
#
So they have a multiple of five for service versus manufacturing.
#
And every businessman or every entrepreneur who is in that group
#
will not have competition with other.
#
That means if you are from advertising background,
#
no other advertising person would be there in that group.
#
So different, different businesses,
#
they will also look at a healthy mix of manufacturing versus services, that kind of a thing.
#
So I became a member of Ascent Foundation, which is a not for profit.
#
And the idea is basically to learn from each other, from each other's experiences.
#
So nobody gives Gyan to each other how things should be done.
#
In case, so if somebody has a problem, they can put it forward.
#
It is kind of a sounding board for entrepreneurs.
#
And if you have a problem, you share it with others and others would tell
#
what they would do or what they have done in similar situations like that.
#
It was a very, it's a very good platform.
#
It's a very good group.
#
I have somebody who, Aseem Dalal is a friend, he is a part of my group.
#
He is basically used to own Bombay store, All India.
#
Rajesh Doshi is a friend, another friend who basically runs a jewelry manufacturing unit
#
in Siebes, does almost 125 crore of turnover sports to big chains,
#
departmental stores in US.
#
Amish is another guy who is into pharma, basically background.
#
He recently sold off his company.
#
He was into pharma analytics and pharma information, AIOCD AWACS.
#
Bhavin is into plastics.
#
Hemin is another big guy, does 300 crore of turnover.
#
He is into cardamom exports, is branded cardamom.
#
Vandana is an advertising person.
#
Kinjal is into logistics and space management services.
#
Kaushik is into again packaging industry, SID.
#
So these are the guys whom I have been with for last 10 years.
#
A very interesting thing is that we meet every month.
#
There is a meeting date and we meet for three hours.
#
We kind of give each other update on what did I do last week, last month?
#
What could be improved?
#
That kind of update we have to give.
#
We call it check-in and we give that to everybody every month.
#
These meetings are set six months in advance.
#
And there is a protocol for these meetings.
#
You meet on a monthly basis.
#
You cannot be absent for more than two meetings in a year.
#
If you are more than two meetings out, then you will be thrown out of the group.
#
You reach for a meeting on time.
#
If you reach a minute late, you pay a thousand rupees fine.
#
You reach 15 minutes late, three thousand rupees fine.
#
We collect a fine for that.
#
And missing a meeting is not allowed.
#
So everybody is committed.
#
I think in the last 10 years, so around 120 meetings,
#
that we have hundred and hundred meetings at least we must have had.
#
I have not missed a couple of meetings.
#
I have said I could not go.
#
Almost 98 times I have been there and maybe only once or twice delayed.
#
Otherwise, be on time and be there without failing that date.
#
So if somebody can't make it, people help each other and kind of change the date,
#
but ensure that everybody is available and everybody is there for the meeting.
#
Very committed group of friends.
#
So everybody has become a friend.
#
They were entrepreneurs.
#
All of them are entrepreneurs.
#
We knew each other through ascent, but everybody is now a good friend there.
#
So that's another offshoot or part where I think my personal growth happened
#
in terms of learning about profession, learning about business.
#
And how do you see things differently?
#
Because everybody has a very different business.
#
Somebody is into advertising.
#
Somebody is into motivation.
#
So Think and Grow Rich is a book that you know, Napoleon Hill book.
#
India franchise is with Sid Shah and Sid basically manages that completely.
#
He was earlier into copper smelting and copper pipe business.
#
He quit that because that was basically had a lot of challenges on that business.
#
He quit that business and got into Think and Grow Rich.
#
And he's running that for the last four or five years.
#
And phenomenal transformation as an individual being.
#
I've seen what a change he has done in his life.
#
Same is with Amish, brilliant ideas on pharmaceutical information and the products,
#
information products that he has created and kind of fought with the multinationals who are into
#
this data business and built a solid company and kind of could get a nice exit.
#
Heman, again, somebody who can just take some simple thing like cardamom and brand it and
#
export it to the Middle East and all across the world and build a business of 300 crore.
#
And he does it so cool.
#
Just very small team he has and he does that business very nicely.
#
So all these people, I think, gave me a different perspective toward business life,
#
the way you see it, the way you operate it, the way you manage it.
#
That's basically the kind of my professional journey until now.
#
In 2017-18, when I exited Medi-Manage, a few of my friends who basically from my
#
Sadashram friend, they kind of invited me to join their board and they wanted to grow
#
the company from their current stage and they felt that I could be a good help.
#
So I kind of have joined there as a board director and I basically managed that.
#
So that's my day job kind of thing.
#
And that's where I think I, that's where I met Mr.
#
Bagwe, who basically is my current co-founder in howframeworks.com.
#
That's my professional journey.
#
I have so many questions that I hope you're aware that we're going to be here for a few more hours.
#
My first question is about this, that elsewhere, I think in some other,
#
you know, you read an interview for CTQ with Harish.
#
I don't know if you said it there or you wrote it in an article,
#
but you wrote somewhere about how at one point when you were very young,
#
you realized you weren't very smart in your words.
#
I would not say that, but you realized you were not very smart.
#
And therefore you realized that your key to getting ahead was discipline.
#
Now, through this story, what I see is really a couple of things.
#
One is that there is a lot of hard work happening,
#
perhaps because of your circumstances and the scarcity out of which you come.
#
Like when you, for example, go to Shardashram,
#
you know, where you're mingling with people outside of your neighborhood or Vikhroli.
#
There are rich people from Dadar as it were, who are there.
#
And you're working so hard that without anyone realizing,
#
all of a sudden you're first in class and you're all of that.
#
And that hard work is really compensating.
#
You speak about how for some of your other friends, math was so incredibly easy.
#
And you had to find a space where you made sure you were not failing by a healthy margin,
#
so which is like a kind of insurance.
#
Instead of 21, you're getting 27 out of 50.
#
But at the same time, you know, you're having to work
#
because it doesn't come so easily to you that you can just try every paper,
#
every question in a paper and say, check any three, right?
#
Which requires some chutzpah.
#
And I have realized that I have in my life,
#
sometimes when things have come easy to me,
#
I've fallen into a trap of feeling entitled to things coming easily to me
#
and getting carried away by that and not working as hard as I should.
#
And I think that can be a tremendous curse.
#
And in your case, I would say that it's probably a kind of tremendous blessing
#
that you're actually putting in the hard work.
#
Like I remember my very first job as a copywriter when I was 20 years old.
#
In 1994, I was in HTA Delhi, then India's number one agency,
#
now it's J Walter Thompson. It's called J Walter Thompson.
#
And I remember as a young copywriter, one assignment was given to the group
#
and there were three of us, two other guys and me.
#
And we were just bouncing off ideas for three young copywriters.
#
And I was 20 or 21 and I was 20.
#
They were probably 25, 26, not much more older than me.
#
And one of those guys just had terrible grammar, terrible language, terrible ideas.
#
I was like, what is this? How is he working here? What is this person, you know?
#
Well, I thought I was coming up with really smart-ass lines,
#
my English was great and all that.
#
But three days later, when all of us submitted whatever we had to submit,
#
that guy's work was by far the best.
#
And that was because he didn't stop thinking about it.
#
He just worked and he worked and he cracked it and he just got a certain clarity
#
and everything kind of fell into place.
#
And that's an early lesson that more and more in life,
#
I see that, you know, that ethic is important.
#
And my question to you is that that is not just sort of a theme
#
that is there in that early part of your life, which you told me about.
#
But I can see it in pretty much your entire life,
#
because from hard work, I think one comes to intentionality
#
that you decide that boss, I have to do something, I will do it.
#
Right. And in most people's, for most people, our life falls into a groove
#
and we are just flowing naturally into that groove.
#
So one, we stop working harder than we need to.
#
And two, we lose that intentionality where we take everything for granted.
#
Right. And everything is normalized and everything is background.
#
In a sense, in a sense, everything is unseen.
#
But with you, I've noticed that there is a lot of intentionality
#
when it comes to things like friendships,
#
remembering everybody's birthday, sending flowers and sending gifts,
#
which you make it a point to do.
#
There is intentionality when it comes to learning.
#
And I'm going to ask you about that.
#
And you're going to spend quite a bit of time telling me about your philosophy there,
#
because I'm kind of fascinated by the approach you have towards learning
#
and even teaching, which you've done.
#
And we'll talk about that as well.
#
So was this always a constant part of your character
#
that you are always working that you're intentional
#
or are there aspects of this which come late in life?
#
Is there a point in life where you realize that,
#
fuck, I have to work on this aspect of my game,
#
whether it is friendships or whether it is learning
#
or whether it is intellectual curiosity or whatever,
#
or were you always kind of like this?
#
And what is your journey towards thinking about this stuff?
#
Because I don't think you've arrived,
#
even if you have those character traits,
#
I don't think you've just automatically flowed into this.
#
You've put in thinking about yourself and the life you want to live
#
I know it's a very broad question, but...
#
Yeah, so I think about relationships, friendships.
#
I think I've always been intentional.
#
That's something which I do because I believe in that.
#
And I feel that anything that you have to make it work,
#
then you have to put efforts in that.
#
So friendships don't happen just like that.
#
If you feel that they wither away,
#
there are what you spent as a childhood,
#
those friendships may remain.
#
But I think you need to work on friendships.
#
You need to kind of invest onto friendships.
#
So I would do that and I like it.
#
I like so I would not...
#
All my good friends, I will never wish them on WhatsApp.
#
I will never wish them on messages.
#
I'll pick up a phone and call.
#
So all my friends, very close friends,
#
all my Ascent Foundation friends,
#
I pick up a phone and call them and talk to them for 5-7 minutes,
#
10 minutes at least on their birthday.
#
So I will never send a message.
#
So these are small things that I do because I believe in them.
#
I said, you know, it's his birthday.
#
I have to talk to him today.
#
Nothing else, so I have to talk to him.
#
And I kind of so I have saved the numbers.
#
I have a system where I have saved the numbers.
#
That goes in my calendar.
#
So it goes in my contact.
#
That goes in my calendar.
#
When it goes in my calendar, I have two reminders.
#
So one reminder two days before,
#
one reminder on the day at the morning.
#
It's for very few people, but I have done it.
#
So I think I'm very intentional there.
#
When it comes to the knowledge, the learning part,
#
I think it came a little late in life.
#
The moment when I came into the big ocean of business,
#
I started seeing more and more smarter people.
#
And then I realized that, boss, I'm not that intelligent.
#
I have that realization because I saw Nandu who was my...
#
We lost him in 2013, kidney failure.
#
So that Nandu who would write all the questions,
#
answer to all the questions and yeah,
#
he was tremendously intelligent.
#
I knew that I can't be Nandu.
#
Or another friend, Girish, good maths.
#
And I said that I can't be Girish.
#
But I said that what can I do that will take me ahead?
#
And I said that, okay, let me structure.
#
So I think habits is something that I built pretty late,
#
but intentionality came.
#
So let's say around 10, 10, 12 years back,
#
I started thinking about it very clearly in terms of
#
I need to do and kind of build something.
#
So I started reading more intentionally.
#
I started kind of thinking about what I read.
#
I started about introspecting about myself.
#
But real growth, I think happened in last five to seven years.
#
Five years, I would say definitely around 2017, 18.
#
So I got space once I sold the company off,
#
I had some money in the bank
#
and I didn't really have to kind of be after that business
#
Because I think insurance broking business was very taxing
#
in terms of some or other renewal is coming.
#
You have to retain that revenue.
#
That means you have to really work hard
#
in terms of managing that.
#
Yes, we had a fantastic stickiness,
#
but still the competitor would always try and come in
#
and we were fighting with all the multinational brokers
#
and multinational brokers used to kind of talk at top.
#
So they will not talk to the HR head.
#
They will talk to the CEO and come from top to bottom.
#
And then the HR head would not have choice because...
#
But to kind of listen to them and give in.
#
We created so much of a value
#
that they could fight with CEO that,
#
no, no, no, we will continue with this broker.
#
So that pressure was always there.
#
With that pressure, I think I was lost a lot
#
into kind of doing stuff.
#
But once I sold the company and had some space,
#
I started thinking about these things very kind of intentionally.
#
I understood that kind of going through life
#
just through motions is not the right way.
#
I need to kind of build my knowledge.
#
I need to kind of build my dots.
#
As you very often say that we need to collect more and more dots
#
and the picture will become kind of much clearer,
#
the high definition vision.
#
I think that's something that I started doing
#
around four or five years back.
#
So I do read what I do.
#
I stopped buying books physically, a lot of books,
#
but I now buy books on Kindle.
#
And whatever I like in terms of interesting paragraphs
#
and all that, I highlight them.
#
I have linked my Kindle to Kindle.
#
And also, apart from Kindle,
#
what I do is that I think three, three and a half years,
#
So Ramanand and Harish, both of them, they run CTQ.
#
They send an article every day.
#
So every article I read every day
#
before next day morning, 10 o'clock.
#
10 o'clock is the deadline.
#
I kind of finish it every day.
#
I think maybe once or twice,
#
it must have happened that I have missed it.
#
Otherwise, I do that very intentionally, very clearly.
#
That's a habit that I have built.
#
So whatever I like from those articles as a paragraph,
#
And I have an app called Readwise.
#
So I copy them and that goes into the Readwise.
#
And then Readwise kind of gives me space reputation you can do.
#
So whatever passages that you have saved in Readwise,
#
I read every day 15 passages of that every day.
#
So it throws randomly passages to you, back to you.
#
When you have read a book recently,
#
those passages come very often,
#
but otherwise they keep coming to you.
#
And I read, so that's happening.
#
I think today I must be at 630th day.
#
I have not missed a single day reading that those years.
#
So you can basically see your progress there very clearly.
#
And I started some time back and I turned some 185.
#
I missed it or I got busy.
#
And I never realized that I have done that.
#
Then I last 26th of December, 2021, I have started.
#
And I have not missed a day doing that.
#
So I do this knowledge learning very intentionally
#
because I have a clear-cut understanding
#
And I think this is helping me.
#
So I have a system in place which helps me build my knowledge.
#
And like I say, I mean, you're so self-effacing.
#
You will insist on that most forcefully.
#
One, I don't think that's true.
#
And two, I think that is true of everyone.
#
And these are, of course, contradictory thoughts.
#
But I think the smartest person in the world
#
is really smart in one or two things.
#
Most things are a complete ignorant fool.
#
And therefore, you need systems to organize the knowledge
#
But before you kind of get those systems,
#
like you've just described your sort of reading stack,
#
as it were, Kindle, CTQ, Readwise.
#
But before one gets to those systems,
#
there has to be the will and the intention
#
So that's kind of admirable.
#
And like some people have an SIP,
#
you also have an IIP, which you have a fund set aside for.
#
So tell me a little bit about this IIP.
#
So I basically have kept certain money aside.
#
And what I do is that I spend that on various subscriptions.
#
I spend that on buying books.
#
I spend that on certain podcasts, EF subscriptions.
#
So what I do is that this money is kept for that.
#
And this is my knowledge investment.
#
Yeah, so intellectual investment plan, IIP.
#
So what I do is that is again intentional.
#
So if I earn certain money, then I will keep this money
#
because something will go towards future investments
#
But something has to go towards knowledge management.
#
So I take certain subscriptions.
#
And I believe that a lot of people have this thought process
#
of, hey, if we don't read, why do we have to buy books?
#
I believe that, no, one has to buy books, good books, always.
#
Even if you don't read them, if they are lying there
#
in your cupboard or if they are lying in your kindle,
#
I think everything is not sugarcane that you have to get juice
#
I think that's not the approach that one should have towards
#
knowledge or towards books.
#
I think if good books are bought, then only good books
#
That's the basic supply-demand funda.
#
So if there is no demand, there will be no supply.
#
So if we keep demand alive, we will always get good literature,
#
And that's why I think I have 2,200-odd books in my kindle.
#
And most of them are not read.
#
I read whenever I get time.
#
I try and do intentionally reading.
#
Naren told me to read 25 pages a day.
#
I am trying to kind of follow his advice.
#
But still, I have books.
#
Even if I read one book every week, I will need 30, 40 years
#
to read all these books available.
#
But does that mean that I should not buy books?
#
No, no, I'll still keep buying books.
#
There is this word, Japanese word called sundoku.
#
That's where you just hog, keep books, buying books and keep
#
But I think I don't mind doing that because I feel that I don't
#
have to kind of look at it from a very utilitarian point of view.
#
I think if it is a good book and if it comes from good
#
recommendations, you should buy it.
#
More the book copies are sold, more books will come in,
#
more good books will come in.
#
The future generation would have access to good books that way.
#
So I don't see it from that perspective.
#
That's why I have this IAP as a concept, Intellectual
#
Investment Plan, where I set aside certain money and buy
#
books, buy subscriptions.
#
Again, on subscriptions, I might not.
#
So New Yorker subscription is there.
#
And I might not read each and every article that is there.
#
But something which is interesting, I will read.
#
But should that mean that I should kind of stop that
#
I'm seeing currently Wikipedia is running a campaign of
#
I pay Wikipedia money also.
#
Because I feel Wikipedia should be there.
#
It's an interesting project.
#
And there's so much learning that has happened through
#
And I think one should pay once in a while, whenever they
#
are asking for money, we should pay that.
#
I think it's our collective responsibility to keep
#
knowledge available and keep knowledge growing.
#
And I think we should be very intentional about it.
#
If you are moneyed and if you can afford to do that, one
#
should definitely do it.
#
You've given me a quote of the episode, and this can be a
#
t-shirt line, everything is not sugarcane.
#
And no, I completely agree with you that I also haven't
#
read the majority of the books that I bought, which is,
#
like you said, physically impossible no matter how much
#
And I sort of think of it as like one phrase that I have
#
come to think about recently is the surface area of
#
That what you want to do is you grow through exposure to
#
things that you were not aware of earlier.
#
And you can expand your surface area of serendipity
#
either by reading a lot or buying a lot of books where,
#
you know, even if at any given point in time I'm bored and I
#
want to read something, I have so many unread books around
#
I don't even need to leave my house or go to Amazon or
#
But another way of expanding the surface area of
#
serendipity, I guess, is by meeting more and more people.
#
Now, for someone like me, introverted, doesn't like to go
#
out much, it's kind of naturally restricted.
#
You, on the other hand, like you mentioned that in the
#
90s when you were at, you know, at Blue Star also, you
#
were known for good networking and meeting people and
#
And to me, from whatever I've seen of you, this feels
#
It is not as if you have to force yourself out of your
#
comfort zone or whatever.
#
You enjoy meeting new people and chatting with them and
#
And so, you know, what is your thinking about this?
#
How much of this is an effort?
#
How much of this just comes easily?
#
How did you grow into this kind of habit?
#
Because I'm imagining, like you mentioned the first time
#
you entered a 5-star, right?
#
The first time I entered a 5-star also, I felt out of
#
I said, any moment, Darwan will come and say, sir, what
#
What is your work here?
#
And I think we all go through anxieties like that of how
#
you will be perceived by other people, which for someone
#
like me makes reaching out much harder.
#
But in your case, is it something that you've had to
#
What is your sort of thinking around this whole thing of
#
expanding the surface area of serendipity?
#
I think the more I got comfortable with myself, the
#
more I got comfortable with everybody else.
#
So once I realized that I basically became comfortable
#
in my own skin and I started reading, I started
#
understanding that not everybody is as smart as they
#
I see a lot of people with a lot of ignorance and I
#
felt that, yes, people will be different and people
#
have their own challenges.
#
And once you are clear about that empathy, once you
#
start accepting people for what they are and interacting
#
with them, then it becomes very easy.
#
For me, meeting people is actually learning experiences,
#
learning thinking the way people think.
#
So a trader thinks in a different way.
#
A businessman thinks in a different way.
#
A service provider thinks in a different way.
#
A product provider thinks in a different way.
#
So I see these are all learnings in a different way.
#
And naturally, I like meeting people.
#
Over a period of time, I have started restricting that
#
I don't know, somehow I feel that there is very little
#
time left with us, though you have been saying that we
#
will all live 120 years.
#
But somewhere I feel that I need to meet right people.
#
I need to kind of filter that and I want to kind of
#
So this particular Ascent Foundation, it has almost
#
I'm part of the governing council this year.
#
So I get to talk to people.
#
I get to basically select people who would come inside
#
So I see people and I see different ways of thinking.
#
My way is not the right way all the time.
#
I think there are so many different ways to do things
#
and there is a learning in that.
#
So I like doing that and I like meeting people for that
#
And again, I genuinely believe in relationships.
#
I am not transactional.
#
I don't like mere transaction.
#
I need to see value in it.
#
So way back, I think in 1997-98, I was invited for
#
joining Amway and I said that I can't join
#
Amway because Amway would force me to see at my friend,
#
at my relative as a consumer and try and peddle a product
#
to them and push them knowing fully well that product
#
is way high price and that entire pricing is all about
#
the markup for the distribution, which everybody
#
will get pyramid chain where everybody would get
#
I was shown big picture about you can earn 1 lakh,
#
2 lakh, 3 lakh per month and all that.
#
But I never could join Amway as part because I don't
#
believe into relationships that way.
#
I don't see them in transactional manner.
#
Same way, I'm part of Ascent, which basically talks
#
about value, but I could never become part of BNI.
#
So Business, Nation, Network, International.
#
BNI is basically a group where everybody does networking
#
and that networking is majorly about giving somebody
#
a lead and through lead, they make transactions.
#
And it's pure transaction basis is what I feel.
#
There must be bigger philosophy there, but I could
#
never really kind of identify myself with that.
#
I always feel that there has to be a value in that
#
relationship and that value creation should be there.
#
Even if you are meeting for business, there should
#
be value and that networking cannot be just only
#
I think transactions, pure transaction give me kind
#
I see relationship needs to be, I'm a people person.
#
I like people and I would like to do things for
#
people and I would like to genuinely cherish that
#
relationship, build that relationship.
#
And if transaction happens, it's fine.
#
I think that's the outcome and that's the side thing
#
But I genuinely am interested in people and kind of
#
That's the personality that I have.
#
I have not kind of cultivated it over a period of time,
#
but I have always been a relationship person.
#
This reminds me of Kant's categorical imperative of
#
treating every person as an end in themselves and
#
not as a means to an end.
#
So just exactly the same thing that don't treat
#
relationships as transactional.
#
And I'm also thinking about you and I are part of
#
that generation which made the transition from being
#
constrained on the one hand to communities of
#
circumstance to being able to form communities of
#
choice largely because of the internet.
#
All my good friends are really people I've met
#
through the internet, more or less.
#
None of us would have known each other if not for
#
Or our fourth member, Subrata, we have this WhatsApp
#
group called Food Lovers of Mumbai.
#
We will not share any of those secrets on our show
#
because they belong to us alone.
#
So initially, you're constrained by the people you
#
know in your neighborhood and then in your school
#
and then in whichever company you work at and
#
And I want to sort of dig in a little more into what
#
that period of being part of Ascent would have done
#
for you because what I'm imagining is that when
#
you're a successful entrepreneur, you might reach
#
a stage where you're insulated from honest looks at
#
yourself, where it is very tempting to think that
#
wow, I've achieved this and I'm so smart and I'm so
#
whatever and all of that.
#
And I think the beautiful advantage of being part of
#
the kind of group that you describe at Ascent with
#
these other 9, 10 people is that they are also as
#
successful as you, if not more, and all of them know
#
things that you don't and you of course know things
#
they don't, but you'll underplay that.
#
But they all know things that you don't.
#
And through them, you get to see yourself in a sense
#
I'm guessing through a different lens.
#
How do you look from the outside to them?
#
So tell me a little bit about that process because
#
I feel that that must also be so priceless that you
#
don't become a victim of your own success or become
#
an ossified self, but you're always an evolving self.
#
So tell me a little bit about the communities of
#
choice that you formed and so on.
#
And I will come back to communities of circumstance
#
So Ascent I think was very interesting in a way that
#
you could bounce off the ideas and you could also
#
get criticized for something.
#
And at many times what I thought as a brilliant idea
#
was kind of broken down into how this can be a
#
And not for me, for everybody this has happened.
#
So what happens is that when you have that kind of
#
a trust developed between each other, we have a
#
So we basically have done something called Lifeline
#
as an exercise where everybody talks about their
#
life the way I'm speaking now.
#
Everybody tells about their life, their sorrows,
#
their wins, their enjoyments, their achievements.
#
We talked, so we had gone to Goa in 2015-16.
#
We recently were in Nasik offsite and we talked
#
So we keep challenging each other.
#
We keep kind of questioning each other.
#
We keep kind of questioning the beliefs that we
#
And that's an interesting one is that you are not
#
You can say what you want to say.
#
Not that you say something which is I would say
#
stupid, but something which is sensible, something
#
which you are conflicted about.
#
And people will give you a different perspective.
#
And that is the space I want to be.
#
And that's an interesting space.
#
I think everybody should have that kind of a space,
#
more so people in business, because you can do so
#
many mistakes and can actually go off track so
#
And somebody who is objectively looking at
#
But typically that happens in family businesses.
#
I think a couple of people in our group have family
#
businesses and they struggle through the pressures of
#
their parents, their family members involved in the
#
And they struggle between what decisions to take,
#
whether emotions should be preserved or professionalism
#
should be brought in and stuff like that.
#
And when they talk about it, we were all friends.
#
So they can candidly talk about what went wrong and
#
how could this be solved.
#
And other people, they are so...
#
So we know that, yes, we know this person is emotional
#
and this person needs to solve a problem.
#
We know that we can't kind of give him advice where he
#
can go and fight with his family, but at the same time
#
figure out something which will help the business and
#
help him kind of maintain relationships better.
#
And we keep working on that.
#
So I think when such groups or such groups are built or
#
such communities of choice are built, trust is a very
#
I think I should be able to trust others and I should
#
be able to know that what I'm getting as an advice is
#
coming in an absolute clear, clean intention.
#
There is nothing kind of underlying meaning,
#
And once that happens, one such community is our clear
#
writing community, amazing community that we have there.
#
And anybody who puts anything there, I think everybody
#
is so comfortable with each other that they don't mind
#
putting up stuff easily and nobody takes it out.
#
And I think such communities should exist more and more.
#
How do we create that is a challenge, but with the kind
#
of distraction, with the kind of shallow interactions
#
that we see around the attention span going down, I
#
feel it's something which is worth thinking about,
#
worth kind of exploring about.
#
But yes, such bonds can help us think very comfortably
#
within that sphere and I think can help.
#
I want to turn to sort of communities or
#
circumstance now, like I promised I would.
#
And I want to take you back to Vikhroli, to that housing
#
society where you're growing up.
#
How many of those people are you still in touch with,
#
I think four or five people at least, definitely.
#
So one of my friends who stayed in the same building
#
passed 10th, I think it passed 12th also.
#
I think he did his graduation, yeah.
#
And he was, after that, he had an auto rickshaw.
#
He used to kind of ply that and he was doing that.
#
In 2003, 2004, when I was into consulting, one of my
#
very close friends, Vishvesh Joshi, he's no more.
#
He passed away in 2016, cancer, colon cancer.
#
A very close friend from my Asian Art Institute days.
#
So he was doing this hospital project management
#
at Thane, the Jupiter Hospital.
#
So I met this Sanju guy who used to ply auto.
#
So I told him that, why you want to do this in life?
#
Why don't you look at something else?
#
And he was after me, give me some break.
#
I need to have some good break.
#
And I introduced him to this friend of mine, Vishvesh.
#
And Vishvesh took him in his company and he was onto the
#
project, Jupiter Hospital, right from, I think, 2002-3.
#
And that boy, he's my age only, sorry.
#
And he is now the patient relationship manager
#
at Jupiter Hospital, earns five-figure salary,
#
six-figure salary, maybe, yeah, six-figure salary now.
#
So from auto rickshaw plier in his late 20s
#
to relationship manager in a hospital,
#
he also manages the laundry.
#
So he's good at certain stuff.
#
So they have given him additional responsibility
#
of managing the laundry.
#
Phenomenal growth, again, kind of hard work.
#
Again, I don't want to ply auto all my life
#
and I want to do something different with my life.
#
So I think there are four or five people from that year.
#
So that entire colony, the buildings,
#
because of their age, almost 50-55 years,
#
those are getting kind of like going to redevelopment.
#
So our building is already gone.
#
So that's kind of broken down.
#
So and now a new 17 or 18-story tower is coming there.
#
So people are kind of dispersed.
#
But I'm still in touch with a few people there.
#
And I think everybody is looking at changing the life.
#
So this one example is very striking example,
#
Sanju, who changed his life.
#
So I have one main question,
#
but before I come to that, a sideways question struck me
#
because you mentioned redevelopment.
#
And I've been thinking recently,
#
and I will write about it at length,
#
about how the different forms that are all around us
#
inhabit, change our culture in such profound ways,
#
change societies in certain ways.
#
And one of those forms is the way that we live together.
#
Very often, redevelopments fail
#
because you might have, say, a tenement or a slum
#
where you have a bunch of people living together,
#
their houses almost bleed into one another,
#
you have all the women gathering together,
#
you have kids running from one house to the other
#
and that builds a certain kind of community feeling.
#
The elders feel that they are not alone.
#
They can just sit out in the common gallery
#
and people are all around them.
#
And when you redevelop them
#
and you put them all in these atomized apartments,
#
that fabric shifts completely.
#
So for an elite upper middle class person like me,
#
it seems completely natural to be in an apartment
#
I would feel very disturbed
#
if I was in that kind of a communal situation
#
where anybody can look into my window at any point in time
#
I don't like to have the curtains open at certain times.
#
But all these different forms, there are trade-offs.
#
And I would imagine that the kind of bonds you form
#
and the kind of life you live
#
is completely different from one form to the other.
#
And therefore, the kind of person that you become also.
#
And this is really an abstract question
#
because you haven't done an A-B experiment of yourself
#
But what is your sort of sense of this?
#
I think the scarcity of the space,
#
that life had its own fun.
#
We were so good bunch of friends,
#
play all the time, have fun.
#
I think living in that 180 square feet house
#
with three kids, three of us, three brothers,
#
my mom sleeping on the other side,
#
my dad sleeping on the bed up there.
#
It also created a kind of a sense of I need more space.
#
Today, I enjoy larger space.
#
I think it came from that scarcity
#
that I need to do something.
#
On the mindset side, I changed quite a bit in terms of
#
everybody told me that you need to live
#
in the kind of very restricted available space
#
or available money that you have.
#
And I always, over a period of time, I said, why?
#
I became a kind of a child who asked this why.
#
And I said, no, I want to have more.
#
I want to kind of do better.
#
Why I have to limit myself?
#
And today also, my focus is not on really saving money.
#
My focus is more on earning more.
#
I would basically try and say build more value and focus more.
#
I also, on the business side, I feel that the businesses
#
which focus more on cutting the cost are basically doing it
#
because they cannot generate enough value.
#
That's why they focus more on cost, cost, cost.
#
But if you generate enough value,
#
you will be able to price your products higher.
#
So I don't know whether I'm answering your question right or not,
#
but I'm saying that being together was a certain phase of life
#
and I enjoyed that and I was not aware about the world outside.
#
But as your exposure grows
#
and you start kind of seeing the world in a different light
#
and you start kind of getting comfortable with certain things,
#
I think I have kind of got to that level
#
where I have become comfortable with a little more space.
#
I have become comfortable with kind of a little more extra being there
#
and I'm okay with that kind of a thing.
#
My approach towards maybe books,
#
which is kind of don't look at it from extraction point of view,
#
all come from there that I have lived through scarcity.
#
So a little abundance is no problem.
#
I think let's let it be there is what I see it like.
#
Yeah, no one should mind abundance.
#
So people who have abundance often don't want it for others.
#
But leaving that aside,
#
which is practically anyone in India who talks about economics.
#
And the main question I was getting at here is about escape velocity.
#
Like I think of how circumstance plays a role in your life
#
that your father's mentor tells him that no, no,
#
don't send him in a Vikhroli school,
#
send him to Shardashram and you go there.
#
And different circumstances happen at different points in time.
#
Perhaps, you know, it's again, like you said, a pivotal circumstance
#
that you happen to get that particular internship,
#
you know, in that particular place with that particular mentor, Mr. Jadhav.
#
And that changes so much.
#
And I think that in a sense, you know,
#
you're probably the one who made good,
#
the one who got away from that little neighborhood.
#
And part of it is circumstances and luck.
#
Part of it is also your force of will and your attitude.
#
And, you know, in that sense, you're the outlier.
#
I would say from what you say about your friend Sanju,
#
even Sanju is an outlier because he wanted to get beyond that life.
#
And I think about escape velocity
#
and I think about mobility and I think about how
#
can people leave their circumstances behind.
#
And I think here it is sort of a larger kind of social problem
#
because if you look at it at the atomized level of a family,
#
like you mentioned that your dad would be so busy
#
that sometimes he wouldn't come home to celebrate his birthday also.
#
And your mother would instead be making some sweet dish
#
to celebrate it without him being there.
#
And you cannot expect individual parents
#
to have the time or the awareness or whatever
#
to necessarily help their kids out of these
#
or help them think differently and all of that.
#
And I think that there's a great tragedy there
#
and it's a tragedy even for families who are not so poor
#
and who have more space to live in.
#
Like something that my friend Ajay Shah said,
#
which I think about from time to time,
#
is he pointed me to this study by some Nobel Prize winner.
#
I've forgotten exactly what.
#
I must discuss it someday in detail with Ajay on everything is everything.
#
But the study essentially showed that kids who grow up in houses
#
grow up in homes listening to 10-letter words around them,
#
they end up having an extra layer of awareness that other kids don't.
#
And 10-letter words here is just a proxy for a higher discourse.
#
But the idea being that privilege is not just about wealth.
#
Privilege is also about having those conversations,
#
having the value of leisure time made out to you.
#
So you could be, you know, in New India,
#
you might have benefited from the liberalization of 91,
#
moved out of poverty, moved into the middle class,
#
can afford to buy your kids books or whatever.
#
But your mentality is still sort of scarcity mindset
#
and therefore everything you do is goal-directed.
#
That if the kids study, what do the kids do?
#
You know, either it's complete time pass that they're playing cricket in the street
#
or going to watch a movie.
#
Or it is goal-directed that I have to crack the IIT exam,
#
I have to go to IEM, I have to be vice president in Citibank,
#
I have to have a whatever big house and two foreign holidays a year by 45,
#
whatever the case might be.
#
And you get all of that, but there is still something missing.
#
And whereas certain people have,
#
like I certainly had the privilege that when I was growing up,
#
nothing was goal-directed, right?
#
I didn't have to worry about my future.
#
My family wasn't wealthy.
#
My dad was a real honest servant.
#
But at the same time, I could, you know, I wouldn't have to worry.
#
I could chill, you know, and therefore I could bask in my leisure time.
#
Now, it's a tragedy that I wasted that privilege
#
and didn't make as much of my leisure time as I could have.
#
But it seems to me that, you know, a lot of people are just sort of denied this.
#
And the point is, even if it is denied in a context of a particular home,
#
I still feel that this is a social problem that surely is solvable.
#
Like today, of course, you have access to the greatest knowledge
#
in the world through YouTube and whatever.
#
But it is still, I feel, a problem that is solvable.
#
And I'm wondering what you think about it,
#
because you, I'm guessing, obviously did not have the privilege
#
of listening to 10-letter words around you.
#
But through a force of will, you brought yourself into that world
#
and created that world for yourself.
#
And eventually, you know, gained that escape velocity and climbed out of that.
#
But in general, what do you think about this?
#
Like when you think back on your childhood and your youth
#
and all the people who didn't make it and all the people who were very smart,
#
but, you know, chose differently and didn't have the drive and so on and so forth.
#
So what are your thoughts on this journey?
#
Because in a sense, you are the guy who escaped.
#
You're the guy who made it, you know.
#
But so many of your friends simply didn't.
#
And so many of your friends never even wanted to.
#
And so many of your friends didn't even think there was something to escape to.
#
So what I, I mean, it's a very general and nebulous question, I know, but...
#
I think something that kind of helped me think differently is my reading.
#
I was reading, though I was reading Marathi early life, I read quite a lot.
#
And I think that reading opened, so that time exposure was not there today.
#
Exposure is much higher, so you can actually see stuff,
#
what's happening in the US, what's happening across the world,
#
just with the click of a button.
#
But that time it was difficult, but that time the escape was through books.
#
And those books, I think, opened the kind of mind, my mind,
#
though it is Marathi, but I think Marathi literature is that way very rich in culture,
#
rich in kind of ideas that one can bring in, very progressive in a way.
#
And that, somewhere that reading opened my mind,
#
and basically took me, made me think a little differently.
#
And fundamentally, I don't know, but then I was a little rebel in a way,
#
and I always questioned about why this is like this
#
and why it can't be something different.
#
So I think with that thought process, I was...
#
I think, initially, I just had to get out of that poverty.
#
I think that the whole focus was that boss,
#
you have to do this because you don't have money, so you have to earn money.
#
Once that little money started coming in,
#
that mentorship that happened with Prashant,
#
and the kind of exposure that I got in Blue Star,
#
the training that I got there,
#
slowly, slowly, I think I started building that kind of thought process
#
that no, I need to kind of do more and do more.
#
Somewhere, when I was doing this job,
#
I always knew that job is not going to give me something great.
#
Somewhere, I was that rebel part of me,
#
didn't want me to kind of follow the instructions
#
which are given in a corporate environment.
#
So wanted to do something on my own was always the thought process.
#
And I think I could, with that certain setbacks on personal life,
#
I could take that freedom and I could just jump into that,
#
I could take that freedom and I could just jump into that and do it.
#
And I think a lot of circumstances,
#
a lot of will, a lot of people helping.
#
I think a huge gratitude towards all those people
#
who at every stage of life came in my life
#
and helped me go a little further ahead.
#
I think that all happened so well.
#
I never have really spent time and thought,
#
what it would have been
#
if some people would not have been there in life
#
or something would not have happened.
#
Had I not gone to Sadasham, what would have happened?
#
Had I not gone to ZTI, what would have happened?
#
Had I not had taken that large job,
#
I would have been in some basement all my life.
#
I would not have taken a jump to doing business.
#
All these questions keep coming back.
#
But I feel fundamentally, I think there is that scarcity
#
during that period drove all of us.
#
Today, there is a lot of information availability,
#
there is a lot of resource availability,
#
and that I think somewhere has made the will to do.
#
I feel it is a bit weaker.
#
I don't know, this is my hypothesis,
#
but I think we wanted to succeed
#
because we had seen so much of scarcity
#
and then everything came just right at time.
#
You came out in the market
#
and you could basically apply your hypothesis
#
and get success and move forward.
#
I think I have not really thought much about this.
#
I need to think more about what really made this happen.
#
But I always feel that the scarcity,
#
the no-choice situation pushed one forward ahead.
#
That's what I think about it.
#
A couple of related questions.
#
If you were 15 years old today,
#
A, do you think that you would have
#
gotten out of those circumstances of scarcity
#
faster than you did then
#
because you would have so many resources
#
available to you for free
#
in terms of learning on YouTube
#
and new opportunities and etc.
#
Or B, do you think it would have slowed it down in some way?
#
Or C, do you think Sanju would have gotten out quicker?
#
I think with the resources available now,
#
I think I would have done much faster.
#
I think Sanju also would have done much faster.
#
I think because it was a struggle.
#
Everything was a struggle then.
#
I think I have stood in the queue for getting sugar,
#
stood in the queue for getting kerosene early life.
#
Maybe when I was in 7, 7, it's 9 year old, 10 year old.
#
So much is available today now.
#
That's available for my son also.
#
That's so much of abundance there.
#
I think we could have done
#
with this kind of drive to succeed.
#
I think we can do much, much, much better
#
in today's circumstances, definitely.
#
I also know the nature of distraction that is there.
#
The huge distraction that is there.
#
You move from one thing to other so fast.
#
We had a lot of focus then.
#
If I have to write a letter to a client,
#
then I could spend an hour writing that letter,
#
polishing it three, four times.
#
Today, I don't know whether I'll be able to do that
#
with this ping there and that notification.
#
Today, chat GPT will do it for you in two minutes
#
and you can spend 58 minutes doing something else.
#
Yeah, on Instagram or somewhere else.
#
Yeah, but I think I would have moved much faster
#
is what I think I would have got out of that circumstances
#
because I think there is so much available at fingertips.
#
That time, the resources were the challenge.
#
Today, resources are not a challenge.
#
I think today, your attention and your focus
#
is much more important.
#
Resources are available in abundance.
#
That's a fascinating shift.
#
I want to ask about your reading in Marathi,
#
It's a two-part question.
#
The first half of each question is the same,
#
which is that did your Marathi reading habit
#
make you different from...
#
And the first part of the question is
#
those of your peers who didn't read at all.
#
And the second part of the question is
#
those of your peers who did their reading in English.
#
Because I have often found that
#
fellow English-speaking elites who've been on my show like me
#
often tend to have a view of the world
#
which is not as well-rounded
#
as those of us who had that multilingual education
#
who kind of would read in vernacular,
#
whether it's Hindi or Marathi or Gujarati,
#
to start with, as has been the case with many of my guests,
#
and then go to English later.
#
And I find that they have a deeper, subtler appreciation
#
I don't want to generalize about everyone,
#
So do you feel that A, it set you apart
#
and made you see the world differently
#
and perhaps contributed to your drive
#
more than it would have with non-readers?
#
And two, do you think that you were able to see
#
some things differently and with more empathy?
#
Because you read in Marathi and not just in English as in others.
#
Like when you speak of your people skills,
#
of understanding people,
#
understanding what makes someone tick,
#
learning that a person is missing something
#
and you can get her a book every month and all of that.
#
There's a certain kind of empathy there.
#
Sometimes it can be natural,
#
but I think the more exposure you have,
#
the more likely you are to get that kind of empathy.
#
Reading of course helps,
#
but reading in multiple languages,
#
so what are your thoughts on that?
#
I think definitely if you read more,
#
so readers versus non-readers,
#
I think you definitely score much, much, much higher.
#
Because I think reading in Marathi,
#
Marathi is a very rich language.
#
The literature scene is very good.
#
That time in the 80s and 90s,
#
we had fantastic books coming out.
#
I have read almost all major authors during that time.
#
the magazines were another.
#
As I have told you already,
#
there used to be this Baburao Arnalkar or Suhasir Valkar,
#
these were very light readings that were there.
#
But there was P.L. Deshpande is one
#
who basically is an amazing observant person.
#
I still carry his one of the books in my bag all the time,
#
this book called Vyakti and Valli.
#
It's about different, different personalities
#
that he has, amazing observation that he has.
#
And that observation skill
#
is what makes you kind of learn about things around you,
#
observe more with that.
#
So the way he has observed
#
oh, how this guy could see this so clearly.
#
Can you give me an example?
#
Can you read out something?
#
So I have this Vyakti and Valli,
#
there is one character who is basically named Antu Barwa.
#
And that Antu Barwa is a guy in Konkan
#
and does not have much money.
#
His kids have been sending some money
#
and he's living on that.
#
And then whatever small little trees that he has there,
#
the betel nut tree and the mango tree and all that.
#
And he writes about when they go
#
and they're drinking tea there.
#
And that while drinking tea,
#
there is not enough milk in the tree.
#
And he would not say that
#
there is not enough milk in the tree.
#
Now what he's telling is that
#
are all the buffalos around
#
are basically pregnant currently
#
that they are not giving milk.
#
So that's the way you would talk a simple thing.
#
What you are wanting to tell is that
#
there is not enough milk in the tea.
#
But you would talk in such a roundabout manner
#
and that's the way those people are.
#
Basically, it's Konkan.
#
So Konkan people will not talk straight.
#
They will always go roundabout
#
and kind of have a little different way of speaking.
#
Now, these are the things
#
which P.L. Deshpande has brought in.
#
He has written a book like Batarachy Chal,
#
which is about life in a chawl in Girgaon.
#
He has written about that.
#
Asami Asami is another book that he has.
#
He went to the east of the world.
#
So Japan and Indonesia and Vietnam and all.
#
So he wrote about Apurvai.
#
Then he went to the west.
#
So he wrote about that in Purvaranga.
#
Amazing observation skills,
#
amazing kind of detailing of characters.
#
In this Vyakti and Valli,
#
he talks about one teacher of his called Chitralai Master.
#
And that entire Chitralai Master,
#
basically he goes collecting money
#
for the school kind of redevelopment
#
And he is going to all the students.
#
And this guy, basically Chitralai Master has told him
#
that you collect me from this student,
#
then I'll come and stay with you.
#
And he goes there to meet.
#
And there are a lot of chappals outside.
#
And there is only one chappal,
#
which is kind of really, really gaunt on.
#
And he said that must be Chitralai Master's.
#
That is the way he explains the personality.
#
The way it is written, so beautiful it is.
#
There is one book called Garambi Cha Bapu Rath Chakra.
#
These are all by author called Sreena Pense.
#
Again, a very fantastic author in Marathi.
#
There is an author called Madhu Mangesh Karnik,
#
who has written this book called Mahim Chikhadi.
#
Another interesting book,
#
it's about one girl who comes, it's in Mahim.
#
So there is a kind of a slum there.
#
And then one girl who comes from outside Bombay
#
and kind of a very Muslim girl and very shy and all.
#
And that girl eventually becomes a prostitute kind of a thing.
#
And that journey of her through a lot of other journeys,
#
very beautifully depicted.
#
So I have read these books.
#
I have read a book called Swami,
#
I have a book which is by a very great author again,
#
There is a book called Sriman Yogi by him.
#
There is a book called Radhey.
#
So Radhey is a book which is basically a point of view of Karna.
#
So the Mahabharat seen from Karna's point of view.
#
So all these books are so rich and so interesting
#
and such a fantastic detailing on the kind of period that they are set in,
#
the kind of characters that they are set in.
#
These all things actually opened me to the skill of observation
#
and skill of kind of...
#
And you, when you observe,
#
when you see things and when you see,
#
you see something different.
#
So when maybe somebody else is seeing,
#
looking at things in an X manner,
#
my frame is very different.
#
My kind of the way I look at things is very different.
#
Today also, I work very closely with certain workers in our factory
#
and their aspirations and their lives and their thought processes are so different.
#
I have read novels in English and good literature in English
#
and that's a different world.
#
And I get to interact with the world there, over there.
#
And I really can connect with that world because I have come from this world.
#
And also I have read a lot which is basically so rich in observation,
#
so rich in detailing that I can identify with those lives very easily.
#
So I think it gives a lot of advantage in terms of...
#
Because having read in Marathi,
#
because today, even today,
#
many of my, a lot of my thinking happens in Marathi.
#
I may be, I may express it in English,
#
but my thinking happens in Marathi.
#
Whenever I'm doing something, my count happens in Marathi.
#
I will still say one, two, three, four, five, like that.
#
If there is a nice kind of monsoon time and then...
#
What I will remember is the Marathi poem,
#
not an English poem because I have never read English poems.
#
Which Marathi poem? Do it for us.
#
There is an interesting Marathi poem called...
#
This is actually about how the monsoon is in Shravan.
#
Shravan is this period.
#
So if you typically see, you will see a lot of sunlight
#
and suddenly there will be rain and then again there will be light.
#
So this is kind of picked it up, picked up in this poem.
#
I remember my mother would always listen to songs on radio.
#
Vividh Bharti used to be there.
#
And these were all Marathi songs.
#
So I remember all these Marathi songs still today.
#
Means I don't have to really kind of take efforts.
#
Those come naturally to me.
#
And I kind of enjoy them.
#
And that world, that kind of sensibilities are very different.
#
I think those are typical Marathi value-based,
#
value-oriented systems or beliefs.
#
I think they are interesting.
#
And that keeps me kind of...
#
I can identify with that world.
#
When somebody says that a lot of time I was telling you something
#
like when somebody is my sales executive
#
and who's sales incentive is to be paid,
#
he comes and tells me that,
#
sir, I have promised my wife a new Mangal Sutra during this Diwali.
#
So let me release that incentive.
#
And I can identify with that.
#
I will never get into that professionalism and say that,
#
how are you bringing this personal life about professional thing?
#
I'll say, okay, no, I understand.
#
People have these aspirations
#
and people have these lives which are different.
#
And I can identify with them very easily.
#
I can be comfortable with that.
#
And without being judgmental about them,
#
because I have kind of over a period of time changed
#
or maybe I skipped that velocity,
#
I still can identify with that very easily.
#
And I got a sense of this in this LinkedIn article you wrote
#
where you spoke about how you're working at Aneesh,
#
And there you have a policy of declaring paid leave
#
for any team member's birthday,
#
their spouse's birthday, their marriage anniversary,
#
up to three children you've specified
#
because some have three children, it's common.
#
And you speak about mother's 50th, 60th and 75th birthday,
#
paid leaves, father's 50th, 60th and 75th,
#
and ditto for mother-in-laws and father-in-laws
#
because you realize that for your female employees
#
who are at home, that also becomes an event
#
that they have to put in a lot of work for.
#
And this is honestly not something that a westernized person,
#
and I mean westernized, I think in a derogatory sense,
#
and I'm obviously also talking about myself,
#
would think about naturally.
#
But now that you say all this, I can see where it comes from.
#
And I also want to ask a question
#
about a sort of Marathi arts and culture and literature in general
#
because what I find happening to some of the vernacular languages
#
is that you have different kinds of homogenizing pressures.
#
And also, like when I was in college in Pune,
#
verni was a pejorative term,
#
which you would use for someone who only spoke Marathi English,
#
they would say he's a verni.
#
It was a pejorative term.
#
I didn't use it, but I think with deep shame
#
that I didn't object when other people around me used it.
#
And there is often this inferiority complex
#
which these local languages carry on two accounts.
#
One is Hindi itself, which has become so mainstream and all of that.
#
And the other is English,
#
which has become an essential transactional language
#
for everyone to know because you've got to get by in the world.
#
And I'm wondering about how it's affected the arts
#
because on the one hand, globalization is beautiful.
#
Both of us love it. Urbanization is great.
#
But one of the results is that being insular is bad.
#
But one of the good things before globalization
#
is that local cultures could have that sense
#
that there was a local market which was always for them.
#
And they could always tap into the local and find joy in that.
#
But the danger of expanding too fast is that sense of insecurity
#
and inferiority comes in.
#
And for a new generation, it might be tempting that
#
if you are an artist and you are in Mumbai,
#
you might say, why do we have to do Marathi?
#
Bollywood is there, OTTs are happening, Hindi is the language.
#
Or if you start getting a presence on Instagram,
#
you see what's all around you, you might even think beyond that.
#
So how has this changed or affected?
#
Since you know Marathi, I'll ask you about Marathi.
#
But how has this affected Marathi literature?
#
Has it become more adventurous and vibrant
#
because of its exposure to influences coming in from elsewhere?
#
Or has it become more insipid because a lot of the better talents
#
go on to do different things?
#
Because for a creative person, there are so many things to do.
#
So give me a sense of that because I know nothing about this area.
#
I think Marathi literature in those times were amazing.
#
I think the scene on the theatre, the scene on the movie side,
#
the scene on overall Marathi was very good.
#
I think everybody is trying to now with the OTTs coming in with the...
#
I see it's my mistake also that I don't watch too much of Marathi these days.
#
I don't have a TV at home, so I don't watch TV much.
#
So I don't know what's happening really on to Marathi as a scene.
#
But I definitely see that homogenization is basically
#
kind of killing the individual cultures.
#
And I think that's not great for the kind of arts and culture of Marathi.
#
But I think certain places I'm seeing,
#
so there are some interesting movies which are there.
#
So we must have seen Court is one good movie that is there.
#
Harish Chandraji Factory is another good movie that is there.
#
There is something that is happening.
#
I don't know whether you have watched.
#
There is a movie called Doghi which is about two sisters.
#
One sister because of the poverty has to go and kind of become a prostitute.
#
And she doesn't become...
#
And once she starts sending money, the family is happy with money that she's sending.
#
But they don't want her presence for the younger daughter's wedding.
#
So there were a lot of...
#
That's happening in Marathi but it's I think happening in a very isolated manner.
#
But during 80s, 70s and 80s and 90s, I think 80s until then, this scene was very good.
#
I have gone and watched a Marathi drama, what we call as Natak,
#
every 31st of December or the first morning, early morning.
#
So it used to be at 12 o'clock in the night.
#
Mohanwagh used to come with a new drama every year.
#
And I think almost three, four years, I have done that year over year,
#
going and watching a new drama at Shivaji Mandir in Dadar, 31st morning.
#
But there were fantastic movies which were there in Marathi.
#
There's a movie called Jaitre Jait which is by Jabbar Patel.
#
Jabbar Patel was one of the great directors in Marathi.
#
I think these movies must be between 1978 and 1985, must be this seven, eight years period
#
because I distinctly remember watching them then.
#
It's basically Mohan Agassi and Smitha Patil in that.
#
There is a movie called Umbarta which is amazing.
#
Again, Smitha Patil movie.
#
There's a movie called Siansan.
#
There's no other great political drama like that.
#
That time I was, there is one small insight or one small trivia about that movie is that
#
that entire movie, despite of the colour television available then,
#
this entire movie is made in black and white.
#
And when Jabbar Patel was asked why he did that movie in black and white,
#
he said that this movie is about politicians
#
and the entire corruption around politicians and that state.
#
And we see politicians only through newspapers
#
because they get their names and their photos get printed in newspapers.
#
All newspapers are black and white.
#
And if I have to connect the audience with the newspaper and the stories and the news there,
#
then I have to have movie in black and white.
#
So why he did movie in black and white, that was the reason.
#
What a deep thought I had seen, heard that time.
#
It's an interesting and creative reason, but I don't quite get it.
#
But it's an interesting and creative reason.
#
Yeah, I was at that point of time, I was like, wow, what a thought.
#
And I think he could connect that and it's a beautiful, brilliant movie that is there.
#
So I think Marathi literature during those period was, I think was at peak.
#
Today, I have not read, so I don't know whether I'm kind of
#
competent to make a commentary on that.
#
But I see a nice movie called Court, which is done very well.
#
A masterpiece, very nice movie.
#
This Harish Chandraji Factory again on Dadasaheb Phalke, very interesting movie.
#
These are nice movies, they are coming.
#
Now, coming back to your question about whether today the globalization, is it killing?
#
I think everything has become kind of fast paced.
#
Everything has become kind of get stuff done.
#
So I would not see Marathi in volumes.
#
You would not see it in volumes.
#
But once in a while, you will see some nice court or some nice book there.
#
But I think it is more rare than more common, which is to be very common then.
#
My Marathi reading has gone down.
#
Once in a while, I watch Marathi, I read Marathi, I read Marathi, which is all old.
#
My father passed away recently and my mom basically is alone and she kind of needs to
#
fill time and she is a solid reader.
#
So I every month and a half, I pick up 10 Marathi books and buy and give it to her
#
and she reads them in her own leisure.
#
So I basically then pick up one or two books from that lot and kind of read.
#
So one of that book is in the bag.
#
I just skip one book and maybe whenever I get time, I read that.
#
I intentionally started reading in Marathi again, a bit, but that's not really,
#
I'm not happy about the quantum, but I do it once in a while, I do it.
#
It's a fantastic habit and I want to kind of, I keep talking about how I want to get
#
back to my habit of Hindi reading.
#
In the sense, I never had a hardcore habit, but I could read Hindi.
#
And now I'm afraid I can't, it would be too labored and I need to get that back.
#
My next question is about entrepreneurship, where, you know, at first you're living that
#
typical upwardly mobile moving into the middle class dream that you get an education
#
and then you get a job and you're an engineer and a big firm and everything's going great.
#
But then eventually you strike out alone and you continue down that path.
#
And you have this great quote in one of your pieces by Swami Vivekananda, where he says,
#
take risks in your life.
#
If you win, you can lead.
#
If you lose, you can guide, you know, and that's a typical entrepreneur's quote in a sense.
#
But at the same time, I can't imagine that that transition would have been easy because
#
you would have to, one, you would have had to deal with uncertainty and risk and push
#
aside that's, you know, craving for stability, which is almost sort of hardwired into all
#
of our seventies, eighties kids.
#
And two, it would have brought a set of new challenges like man management, managing
#
people, motivating them, you know, realizing that you have to be self-directed, that you
#
no longer have a structure and a routine that is already there, but that you have to create
#
one for yourself and live by that.
#
So tell me about that process of becoming an entrepreneur.
#
What did you find out about yourself while being an entrepreneur?
#
How did you have to change to manage that?
#
And what are some of your learnings about entrepreneurship?
#
So I think entrepreneurship is all about kind of values that we, so all entrepreneurship
#
start about values that you kind of believe into and you want to kind of test them into
#
Risk taking becomes a kind of inherent part of that entire process.
#
Now, with your values as maybe constrained or as basically look at the pillars of what
#
you want to do, you build some kind of a vision.
#
And with that vision, you set out into the market and build an organization.
#
Now you start small and you kind of face problems every now and then.
#
And you kind of creatively solve them and move forward one step and after.
#
At the same time, if you have to grow, one needs to be very clear that you need to kind
#
of build a team and get that kind of delegation happening very clearly.
#
And how does one do that is basically kind of manage your day, build kind of productivity
#
around, build network, get right people around, leverage whatever resources that you have.
#
Basically, day to day tasks start moving it out to people down the line and you focus
#
more on strategy, you focus more on revenue, you focus more on kind of growth part of the
#
So I think one learns quite a lot on the fly.
#
You basically kind of first and foremost, start trusting people.
#
So hire people and start trusting people and start giving them opportunities to kind of
#
work and do what they're bit.
#
They may make mistakes and we are all you should be fine.
#
Let them make mistakes and you'll be there to kind of take care of those things.
#
They would kind of give them more and more opportunities to kind of grow.
#
And while they are growing, the whole organization grows into the bigger being.
#
At the same time, don't compromise on basic stuff.
#
You need to be very clear about value system because once you kind of start compromising
#
onto that slowly, slowly, the entire organization decays.
#
And that is something that one needs to be very clear about.
#
Also, when you are into entrepreneurship, you are going to make certain losses.
#
You are going to take certain bets and those bets are not going to come off the way you
#
I think that should not stop you from taking risk.
#
So we used to in our insurance broken firm, we used to make mistakes on hiring people.
#
And almost I think around crore, crore and a half would go every year on unproductive
#
But then while doing this, we would get somebody good who would bring in three and four
#
crore of revenue easily.
#
And that used to happen.
#
So I think you should not stop experimenting when you are into an entrepreneurship.
#
You keep taking risk all the time.
#
At the same time, you start building basically externally.
#
Now you start building internally.
#
So you start building systems and processes because with growth, what comes is that your
#
structure has to remain really, really good.
#
And so investing into those systems and processes becomes very important over a period of time.
#
Relationships, I think business relationships is something that I always invested in and
#
I focused on them personally.
#
And that is something that you need to kind of inculcate down the line to the team.
#
That's a value system that I always have had.
#
Otherwise, I think people, strategy, your own sense of leadership, your systems and
#
processes, your focus on finances and your focus on the overall financial health of the
#
Never lose sight from the profit part of the business.
#
I think there are five, six things that one needs to kind of focus and take it forward
#
I think that way entrepreneurship is difficult in a way because of the risk taking aspect
#
But it is also easy because these are five, six things which I think if you really, really
#
focus on and be humble and ready to learn from every lesson that comes your way, I think
#
it is that way very easy also.
#
I feel that it is not a big rocket science.
#
If you stick to basic principles of life and I think people can become, entrepreneurship
#
is I think it's made very glorious and glorified, not glorious, glorified.
#
But I think people, if they are willing to take risks and if they are kind of live with
#
these basic principles, I think people can become entrepreneurs.
#
And I think everybody should give it a shot at entrepreneurship.
#
I know that some people are not entrepreneurs, but I think there is a huge amount of freedom.
#
There is a huge amount of kind of expression that one can have about one's belief systems.
#
We talk so much about our beliefs, but then entrepreneurship is really a way by which
#
you can test those hypotheses and make them into reality.
#
And I think people should give it a shot.
#
Entrepreneurship is the only way you can, I think, build and create long term wealth.
#
I feel that risk-taking can get you where you want to build.
#
A salary would always grow at a certain pace and with that pace, your expenditure also goes.
#
What you can really genuinely create wealth is only through entrepreneurship where you
#
can get those multiplier effects through risk-taking that one can have.
#
Like risk to reward proportion can be really, really big if you can leverage your resources well.
#
So I feel everybody should give it a shot.
#
And it's not something which is a big rocket science.
#
You need to be kind of always open to learning and you can do it well.
#
And in a sense, we are all the entrepreneurs of our own lives,
#
but we behave like we are salaried employees.
#
And one complaint I have for you is you are just saying that on the one hand,
#
you are saying it is easy.
#
On the other hand, it is saying you have to have humility.
#
It is so difficult to have humility.
#
Give me a break Sudhir on that note.
#
Let's actually take a quick break and eat a cup of coffee
#
and then we will come back and talk for eight more hours.
#
Long before I was a podcaster, I was a writer.
#
In fact, chances are that many of you first heard of me because of my blog India Uncut,
#
which was active between 2003 and 2009 and became somewhat popular at the time.
#
I love the freedom the form gave me and I feel I was shaped by it in many ways.
#
I exercise my writing muscle every day and was forced to think about many different things
#
because I wrote about many different things.
#
Well, that phase in my life ended for various reasons.
#
And now it is time to revive it.
#
Only now I'm doing it through a newsletter.
#
I have started the India Uncut newsletter at indiancut.substack.com
#
where I will write regularly about whatever catches my fancy.
#
I'll write about some of the themes I cover in this podcast and about much else.
#
So please do head on over to indiancut.substack.com and subscribe.
#
Once you sign up, each new installment that I write will land up in your email inbox.
#
You don't need to go anywhere.
#
So subscribe now for free.
#
The India Uncut newsletter at indiancut.substack.com.
#
Welcome back to The Scene and The Unseen.
#
I'm chatting with Sudhir Sarnobar.
#
Sudhir, let's talk on the subject which you've spent a lot of time thinking about
#
and I'm also deeply interested in frameworks.
#
So as I told you earlier, this is all thanks to Bhagwa Sir
#
who basically is running this teaching and learning community
#
and he is a consultant to our company.
#
And whenever we used to go to him,
#
he used to kind of put our whatever pain or problem that we would share with him,
#
he would put it into a framework and then give us a solution fundamentally.
#
And that solution is kind of long lasting.
#
That solution is holistic in a manner.
#
So I read this fantastic quote from Charlie Munger way back in 1990s.
#
He had said this in 1990s.
#
Well, the first rule is that you can't really know anything
#
if you just remember isolated facts and try and bank them back.
#
If the facts don't hang together on a latticework of theory,
#
you don't have them in usable form.
#
You got to have models in your head
#
and you got to array your experience both vicarious and direct
#
on this latticework of models.
#
You may have noticed students who just try to remember
#
and pound back what is remembered.
#
Well, they fail in school and in life.
#
You have got to hang experience on latticework of models in your head.
#
So I got to tell you, Sudhir,
#
that when I was in college, I had models in my head all the time.
#
From Cindy Crawford to Meher Jaisiya to...
#
You talk about such a serious subject and I've spoilt it all.
#
No, no, no. That PJ had to come.
#
What is Amit without that puneri joke or poor joke, PJ?
#
And in those days also PJs would come, but we carry on.
#
So rightly said by Charlie Munger is that
#
if you have isolated facts, those really don't make sense.
#
And my learning over a period of time, last six, seven years,
#
about everything that is around us is always has been through different frameworks.
#
So I always thought about how the world works and how the nations work.
#
And there is so much that you can actually identify,
#
kind of talk about in an isolated manner.
#
The nation is like this, the state is like this and all that.
#
But when I saw a framework of state, society and markets
#
and just saw the entire thing, entire world through this lens of
#
a state, society and market, I think a lot of things fell in place there.
#
Now, how does government operate?
#
And I saw that there is a legislative arm,
#
there is an executive arm and there is a judiciary.
#
And if you see the entire government functioning through this lens of this framework,
#
then suddenly everything makes sense.
#
So I have been kind of looking out for these kind of frameworks for some time now.
#
And then I thought that, OK, my understanding of the world becomes a bit better
#
or rather a complicated subject that is there or a complicated concept that is there.
#
I can understand it easily if it is kind of bound with a framework as a reference.
#
And I thought that, can we kind of build these kind of frameworks for entrepreneurs in India?
#
So as I told you earlier that India has a big challenge on kind of increasing its GDP.
#
And I believe that this GDP growth can happen, really can come from the middle,
#
so SMEs, the small and medium enterprises.
#
I remember Nitin Pai's quote, Nitin of Takshashila,
#
that every one percent growth in the GDP can bring two to three million people out of poverty.
#
And I think India has this challenge of getting people out of poverty,
#
more and more people out of poverty.
#
I have always seen India struggling on kind of revenues.
#
You want to talk about becoming a strong nation,
#
we talk about the 56 inch chest and all that.
#
But that chest cannot be really big if you do not have kind of enough money in your banks,
#
in your kind of economy.
#
And that can happen only through growth of people, the prosperity.
#
And prosperity can come if there are enough jobs.
#
And it's not government's job to give jobs.
#
It is basically the industry.
#
Government can only make certain policies which will make businesses grow faster, better.
#
But it is job, basically businesses will create opportunities for employment.
#
And I feel that that can be done well by small and medium enterprises.
#
I have been studying about small and medium enterprises across the world.
#
And the striking example comes is basically the German middle stand.
#
Germany has a definition of middle stand companies,
#
which is basically a revenue of less than 50 million and less than 500 employees.
#
Today, if you see, almost 99% of German firms are middle stand firms.
#
And almost 70% of workforce is basically employed in middle stand.
#
And they form almost around 50 to 53% of the GDP.
#
And there's a very interesting phenomenon.
#
All these are family owned small enterprises.
#
And they have, over a period of time, grown internationally.
#
Value system, family ownership is there.
#
They are basically, there is a generational continuity.
#
So you will see them kind of one kind of family.
#
The one generation to next generation, it is moving forward.
#
Their entire focus is long term.
#
So they are not into short term thinking.
#
They are looking at next 30 years, next 40 years, next 50 years, that kind of work.
#
They never go to stock market.
#
So they basically are, there are local banks which fund them
#
and can kind of help them take the risk and leverages.
#
So those are called house banks in Germany.
#
And they, so with that through house bank investments,
#
they kind of get huge kind of independence.
#
With the smaller size, they have fantastic control and nimbleness.
#
So they can take quick decisions and kind of move pretty fast.
#
Because they are family firms,
#
they have that relationship as I keep talking about.
#
Relationship is very important.
#
They basically build relationship with their employees.
#
They build relationship with their key suppliers.
#
They build a long term relationship with their customers also.
#
And there, because they are looking at building a kind of a right,
#
good products and quality products,
#
they have a lot of investment in their workforce.
#
So basically our training of the employees and kind of getting them up to the mark
#
and keeping them at cutting edge technology understanding, that's there.
#
Also, because these middle-strand companies are family owned companies,
#
they have kept clean hierarchies.
#
So once you become big, what happens is that your bureaucracy
#
in the organization increases, your decision making gets slowed down.
#
And then owner entrepreneur who is basically heading the company
#
can actually take decisions faster.
#
With, they focus, so all these middle-strand companies are
#
huge on innovativeness.
#
They will basically invest a lot on R&D,
#
which is, if you see generally world over,
#
the average of R&D investment is around three, three and a half percent.
#
These middle-strand companies spend around seven, seven and a half percent on R&D.
#
Their focus is completely on customer B2B focus there.
#
They are not B2C companies.
#
Most of them are B2B companies.
#
And these companies, they are spread across Germany.
#
So your small, small places in Germany, you would see a small town
#
and a company with around 400, 500 employees
#
and turnover of around 50, 40, 50 million euros.
#
And because these companies are locally rooted,
#
there is basically a social responsibility.
#
So they would kind of look at building a library,
#
look at building a road, look at building kind of infrastructure.
#
So they are looking at developing that particular area
#
because they believe into that local infrastructure.
#
And those regional ties basically kind of help them participate into local governance.
#
And sometimes they will basically receive aid because of government.
#
And sometimes they will also do certain stuff into infrastructure development.
#
So this is an interesting model to look at for India.
#
And I feel that that's something that one should, India should look into.
#
And one of the biggest advantages that I have seen with middle-strand companies
#
is that their investment into workforce.
#
And that workforce investment came from the apprenticeship program of Germany.
#
So in Germany, if you have to really become employable,
#
there are a lot of courses where there is a kind of a hybrid education
#
where you spend, let's say, one week in company,
#
one week in college or school, wherever you go,
#
or one month in company, one month in college, or three months or six months.
#
So there are different, different methods they use,
#
but equal time spent in company, doing practical work,
#
at the same time, learning theory about it.
#
And this is all done through the association, trade associations,
#
the unions and the government working together and kind of building.
#
Now, today, if you see in India, we do not have a challenge of manpower.
#
We have a challenge of employability.
#
So what manpower we have, that is not good enough for the industry.
#
And that's the challenge.
#
So I feel that there needs to be, the government needs to be investing
#
into employability of the manpower, employability of the kind of workforce,
#
and not basically look at kind of generating some,
#
they kind of trying to say that we will create so many jobs and all.
#
I think they cannot create jobs.
#
What they should do is enable the workforce to learn better,
#
maybe invest into that learning infrastructure.
#
And they have to do it in a kind of working with companies.
#
So instead of telling companies randomly,
#
we give 5% CSR beyond certain profit here and there,
#
if they can kind of work with industry and make them
#
invest into employability of the workforce,
#
I think that is something great.
#
So this middle stand model at one place,
#
and that's how the focus on SME.
#
And then SME today in India, thinking from the jugada perspective,
#
which I somehow don't like.
#
I have been seeing that years over years,
#
I have seen that we do not have that understanding of a good design,
#
a good product, a quality product.
#
If you see, I remember while going in the school,
#
I used to see these BST buses.
#
They have these windows where you raise the window
#
and in the monsoon you would bring the window down.
#
And there is to be a clip.
#
And that clip you put it and you hang that window in the clip.
#
Now, many a times that clip would be broken
#
and they would tie it with some kind of a wire, steel wire and all that.
#
And I used to feel that why if this clip,
#
which is a simple press metal part,
#
if they can make thousands of it and just replace it,
#
then it would be so nice.
#
But then no, that's not there.
#
Our footpaths are not basically friendly for pedestrians
#
or maybe somebody wants to on a wheelchair, they cannot go.
#
The footpath is always cut for a car to go into a building.
#
Technically, the footpath should be at the same level
#
and the car should go up and down over the footpath.
#
That's what I have seen across everywhere in the world.
#
But here in India, what we see is that every now there is a building,
#
the footpath is cut and the footpath will go up and down and up and down
#
and the car will go straight.
#
So these are basically that nobody gives a thought into building a product.
#
And that's something kind of gives me discomfort.
#
Or I have always seen that this is basically a challenge what we have in India
#
is that we look at everything from a jugadu sense
#
and we're trying to make do something.
#
If we can actually invest into thinking,
#
if we can actually invest into kind of looking at what is the right quality,
#
what is the right thought process to build quality,
#
then we can really make good products.
#
I know I'm generalizing this,
#
there are a lot of world-class products that come out of India,
#
but most of the time we believe into this jugadu thought process
#
and that's something which I feel needs to change
#
and that can really, really make India go well.
#
And what we are trying to do, me and Mr. Bagwe,
#
it's basically Mr. Bagwe's learning over the last 15, 20 years.
#
He started this working since 2005.
#
He has worked with almost more than a thousand companies,
#
small and medium enterprises,
#
and he has kind of built these frameworks for business.
#
We are converting those into videos,
#
basically animation video and commentary along with that.
#
And we are building a library of these videos
#
and on the front end there will be a questionnaire
#
where you get a solution to your problems.
#
So that's what we are bringing
#
and we feel that the entrepreneurs will have some kind of a thought process
#
towards their problem solving,
#
some kind of thought process towards
#
how do you build a structure of a long-lasting company,
#
a company which will continue for generations,
#
a company which will build good quality products,
#
a company that can scale in a better manner.
#
That's basically what I'm doing currently with HowFrameworks.com.
#
Yeah, and you know that's such a beautiful anecdote,
#
that's such a beautiful observation rather
#
about how a road goes into a building.
#
And there is this beautiful thing which I will buy for you
#
if you haven't already read it,
#
it's a masterpiece called
#
The Design of Everyday Things by Don Norman.
#
You have that book, it's such a beautiful book,
#
such basic fundamental things.
#
Before we come back to frameworks
#
and precisely what you're doing
#
and I want to dig into it in much more depth,
#
a quick sort of dilemma almost or a paradox almost
#
about what you said about the Indian economy
#
and you alluded to a part of it which I can't wrap my head around,
#
that on the one hand it is true that we have a jobs crisis,
#
there aren't enough jobs.
#
On the other hand, it is equally true that most of
#
the young people who come out of the education system
#
are unemployable, they have no skills which are useful.
#
So on the one hand, there aren't enough jobs
#
and on the other hand, you have unemployable people.
#
And what explains this paradox,
#
I mean, besides the obvious thing it points to
#
that there is a deep mismatch
#
between the education system and industry.
#
Typically, I would imagine there is a certain amount
#
of supply and demand happening there.
#
Obviously, all education doesn't have to be coldly
#
instrumental and there is a space for the liberal arts
#
But by and large, people want to be educated in a way
#
that makes them useful to the world and useful to society at large
#
and that is simply not happening.
#
So, what are your thoughts on this kind of bizarre paradox
#
where on both sides of this puzzle, we are suffering deeply?
#
So, I think industry needs a certain kind of workforce
#
and that's not happening at the education level
#
and how does one break that?
#
People, when they leave the education institute,
#
they are expecting for a job.
#
It has become kind of important and fashionable.
#
Fashionable, I'm generalizing it but it's fashionable
#
that you do an engineering, you do an MBA
#
and then you want to be a manager.
#
And I think that if everybody is a manager who would do the work,
#
there has to be somebody who is doing the stuff
#
And I'm more so talking about the manufacturing industry per se
#
because I think you cannot ignore manufacturing industry.
#
Yes, services are there but services always will be
#
one layer above manufacturing
#
and manufacturing industry cannot be ignored.
#
And for manufacturing industry to grow
#
or manufacturing industry to survive,
#
you need to have those skill sets in place.
#
And those are the skill sets which cannot be taught in college alone.
#
Yes, you will teach something in the workshop that is there
#
in the college but there has to be a more interface,
#
a much more kind of integrated work that happens
#
between the industry and the colleges,
#
the industry and the government.
#
Today, that's what I said,
#
government is trying to tell that so much of CSR should be done.
#
I think government should not get involved into telling CSR
#
but government should definitely get involved into
#
how do we make our workforce employable.
#
And that is possible only when the expert people in the industry,
#
the people who are doing work with hand,
#
they're actually imparting that knowledge
#
and teaching the young and teaching the intermediate people to do better.
#
Now in Germany, what I've seen is that the government,
#
the trade unions, the Chamber of Commerce,
#
all of them they work together and they have built programs
#
where the person will spend time within the industry
#
and person will spend time in the college.
#
And there are certain people,
#
so unless you get a journeyman license,
#
there are exams of journeyman.
#
And a journeyman is taught only by a master.
#
That means a journeyman's entire kind of growth
#
happens through learning, learning, learning and becoming a master.
#
And only when that person becomes master,
#
that person can kind of train people down the line.
#
Now, this is absolutely important if you need to kind of build products
#
that are quality, really great quality in nature.
#
And I think that cannot happen within a college campus.
#
There has to be a much more stronger interface
#
between industry and educational institute
#
and government needs to set in policy for that.
#
I know I don't like government to get involved into everything,
#
but then once government is there,
#
government should not get involved into doing stuff,
#
but government should get involved into putting a policy in place
#
which can enable the stuff to be done.
#
So I think that policy, because otherwise industry has,
#
yes, industry has inherent incentive to get to employable people,
#
but industry will try and solve it in some way or other.
#
But if government can actually kind of involve itself into it
#
and look at kind of building that infrastructure
#
or building those policies to make people employable,
#
then focusing on how can I create industry
#
and how can I be involved into making things.
#
I think government should get out of doing stuff.
#
Government should only get involved into policy
#
that will make stuff better or easier or like that.
#
So I feel there has to be a much more better interface.
#
I feel industry can take students like this, basically spend the way.
#
For me, if you see really, I learned my entire engineering
#
during my six months or six months of that two stings in Blue Star.
#
And that's where I learned project management.
#
That's where I learned how the entire
#
air conditioning installation and commissioning happens.
#
And I think that's not happening much today.
#
And I think that we need to kind of go back to
#
that kind of structure of education in India
#
if we want our people to be employable.
#
I think that that's the way,
#
but I think there are a lot of experts
#
and most people must have read their brains for this.
#
But this is what I see as a simple kind of a solution.
#
You've nailed it. I completely agree with you.
#
And also there are, I mean, India has messed it up in so many ways.
#
Ideally, your manufacturing labor should be coming from agriculture.
#
We have 60% of the country involved in agriculture
#
where in other Western countries, it's like 4% or 5% or single figures.
#
And the typical way this moves is that people gradually,
#
agriculture gets more productive, productivity goes up,
#
people move to manufacturing.
#
A country like India should have been a manufacturing superpower in the 70s.
#
And blah, blah, blah, we can go on forever
#
and possibly we'll have to order a few drinks,
#
which you will have to have all of them
#
because I don't drink anymore.
#
So give me a sense of the landscape of Indian industry.
#
Like you're talking about a particular size of,
#
for maybe the Indian version of the Middleton companies,
#
which are sort of medium sized and etc, etc.
#
Give me a sense of what is that landscape like?
#
How have they evolved over time?
#
What are the typical problems that you see in such companies?
#
You know, so on and so forth.
#
So give me a sense of what that looks like.
#
So almost there are around 634 lakh small micro enterprises in India.
#
That's the MSME statistics, recent number,
#
where the annual turnover is less than 5 crores.
#
Now, these are basically, I read these are small, small,
#
right from Kirana Shop to Chai Tapri is called as a micro enterprise in India.
#
And I feel that he has,
#
I read a book called Digital Nation by N Chandrasekhar of Tata.
#
And he had written that these all micro enterprises are really survival ventures.
#
They are basically there just to survive
#
because you have to do something to do it.
#
And we call them businesses, but they are really not businesses.
#
If somebody gives them a job in the bank and say that
#
you will get 25-30,000 rupees a month as a salary,
#
a lot of people will jump and drop their businesses and get into that.
#
So these are all survival ventures.
#
So I'm really kind of, those are 99% in India.
#
Around 5,000 companies, which are medium enterprises, as we call.
#
And there the turnover is between around 50 crores to around 250 crores.
#
But a big chunk, a fairly big chunk is between the 5 crores or 10 crores to 50 crores.
#
And these are almost around 3,30,000 companies.
#
And these are interesting companies because if you see,
#
there was a study done in the US where Narnish's book, Scaling Up, has this study,
#
which talks that there was a study of 28 million firms in the USA.
#
And they found that only 4% businesses grew beyond 1 million.
#
That is 8 crores in India.
#
Now, once you grow that number, then you really can grow
#
because you have kind of got certain kind of a maturity.
#
Maturity in people, maturity in strategy, maturity in resources.
#
And then you can actually grow really, really well.
#
So basically, I think we should focus more on these small enterprises,
#
which are more than 5 to 7 crores in revenue, but not gone beyond 50, 60 crores.
#
And those are the kind of companies which can invest into a better strategy,
#
a better kind of structure on resources, a better structure on utilization of resources,
#
and grow to become, say, medium enterprises where they can go up to 200, 250 crore turnover.
#
Mittelstand medium is basically 50 million, is roughly around 500 crore,
#
what we're talking about, but 250, 300 crore is the right member.
#
And these companies are where they are owner-driven.
#
So the value system is much better in place.
#
If the owners really kind of invest their time and their thought processes well,
#
then they can create good enough jobs.
#
They are not focused on kind of only money, money, money.
#
They basically want to do growth of people around there, the areas around there.
#
And local development also happens with this.
#
Small and medium, small enterprises are generally,
#
they come from tier two, tier B and C class cities.
#
It's not kind of focused on cities like Bombay or Bangalore, Delhi, like that.
#
So the regional development is something which is kind of important for growth of any country.
#
If you look at Germany, Germany is not concentrated growth at one place.
#
You go to small, small villages and you will find one company
#
which must be doing around 50, 60 million,
#
but then it takes care of that village which is around town,
#
which is around 1000, 1500 people town.
#
And maybe a hundred of them are working in this one particular factory.
#
So I think that is the kind of model that we are looking at.
#
But in India, the share of total MSME in the overall GDP is around 30%.
#
The manufacturing GDP is around 37%.
#
So MSME that way is kind of fairly big share and they can grow that share.
#
And I think for India to solve its employment problem,
#
the growth of MSME is important because only MSME can solve the employment problem in India
#
because they have that kind of a patience to train people, kind of absorb people,
#
train people, get them, make them employable.
#
In our company also, we get freshers and we basically push them through our training programs,
#
make them work with somebody who is senior for three to six months time.
#
And then they start doing independent work.
#
Now, this entire model is being done because we want good manpower
#
and we are doing it at our own level.
#
But if there can be infrastructure where these employability challenges are solved
#
in kind of collaboration with industry, you would get ready workforce available.
#
And that is very important for growth of medium enterprises.
#
And given that you're targeting these firms essentially with your venture
#
and given that your venture is again focused around frameworks and their utility,
#
the implicit assumption there is that a significant lack,
#
a significant gap within these firms and what these firms can do
#
is exactly in this area and frameworks and the way they think about business
#
and that kind of expertise and understanding and so on and so forth.
#
So can you elaborate a bit on that?
#
What are the typical kinds of mistakes that these firms make
#
that using better frameworks would help them avoid?
#
What are the challenges they face?
#
What are the kind of mistakes?
#
May give me a sense of that landscape.
#
So if you look at business, you need to think the way one needs to think in framework.
#
There is one framework that we have.
#
So we have put up around 10 frameworks right now onto our website
#
and there's going to be a subscription model over a period of time.
#
One framework is basically the basic basic framework
#
is how do you look at your business?
#
And then we say that there is one leadership,
#
which is basically how the entrepreneur kind of leads the company,
#
what kind of values, what kind of vision that he puts forth,
#
he or she put forth and takes the company forward.
#
Second is what kind of people you attract,
#
what kind of people you get into your company and how do you kind of grow them?
#
How do you kind of delegate authorities, delegate work to them
#
and empower them to do better so that the leadership gets freed
#
to do larger growth related strategy related work?
#
Third is important strategy.
#
We basically what we see with SME is that they basically move from one thing to other.
#
They don't have the overall plan in place.
#
This is a particular industry that I'm in.
#
What is the kind of market share that I want to earn?
#
What is the kind of growth that I want to plan?
#
How will I have my growth?
#
How will I expand my product?
#
How will I expand my geography?
#
Those kind of thought process, that kind of strategy is not in place.
#
Sales and marketing, again, very important part.
#
But this sales and marketing at what stage one should invest into sales,
#
at what stage one should invest into marketing and kind of grow your business.
#
And there are always this method where you do an internal integration and external integration.
#
You will never see a constant growth of any industry.
#
You will always see a growth, then some taper and then some growth and then some taper.
#
And what is exactly happening is that you are basically doing an internal consolidation.
#
So you are actually working on your internal products or internal processes and improving them.
#
And at that point of time, your external focus may be diluted.
#
And that's why you don't grow the way you're growing.
#
But once you do that internal consolidation,
#
you again gain momentum and then you grow again.
#
So you don't see a straight line growth.
#
You always see a taper, straight, taper, straight, taper, straight.
#
And that's the way you need to kind of look at it.
#
You can't do everything at all times.
#
So if you are focusing on sales and marketing
#
and you are focusing on internal processes, the owner is only one.
#
There is an empowered team that is there.
#
But you cannot do all things at a time.
#
So you need to kind of focus some time on internal processes,
#
focus some time on external integration and then ultimately finance.
#
That's the most important part.
#
That's why you started a business because you wanted to earn returns.
#
But at the same time, that's a measure and that's a means of the business.
#
And that's a measure of the business also.
#
So you see your business from the financial lens
#
and see whether you are really doing well or not.
#
How are you kind of what is the metric that one is looking at?
#
So this six levers of business is one framework that we have given.
#
We have given another framework where how do you grow rapidly?
#
So how do you select pain?
#
So you look at problem.
#
Now, you cannot solve all the problems.
#
So you do a simple Pareto and look at what is most severe pain that you have.
#
So you use the 80-20 principle that which pain is giving you a 80% issue.
#
And maybe one of the 10 or one of the five pains.
#
So if you have five pains, you pick up one which is most severe.
#
Tackle that, solve that, and then move to other.
#
Don't try and chew too much beyond your capacity.
#
Or maybe how do you manage risk?
#
So basically become risk-literate.
#
Understand what is risk.
#
Understand what are your fears.
#
Typically, there is nothing called risk.
#
It is actually a fear that is underlying behind risk.
#
And one needs to understand what you fear.
#
And that fear is what we need to address.
#
And figure out a solution to address that fear, mitigate that fear,
#
and evaluate strategies.
#
Build financial muscle.
#
Over a period of time, ultimately, if you look at all the risks,
#
the biggest risk that you would have is the financial failure risk in the business.
#
And the moment you start building resources,
#
the moment you start building financial capital and financial strength,
#
your risk-taking abilities improve.
#
There are a lot of contingency plans through insurance,
#
through other mitigation techniques.
#
One can basically keep the risk at bay.
#
So we have one framework on how do you manage risk.
#
We have another framework on how do you build your team?
#
So how do you optimize resources?
#
How do you do employer branding?
#
So as a small entrepreneur, I have always seen that
#
I will always be fighting with the big guys.
#
So in my insurance-broking firm, the people, the big brokers,
#
the international brokers could.
#
So we used to train people and kind of make them competent and great.
#
And then they would be hired at 40% more salary by the biggies.
#
Now, how do you still retain such people?
#
So what big companies cannot do is basically,
#
cannot create personalized benefits, small benefits.
#
So we would work a lot more.
#
Before the COVID, we used to do a lot on work from home,
#
flexible working hours, and give those kind of leverages to people.
#
And by these leverages, we could actually attract talent
#
because there was a lot of flexibility that was given.
#
Paid leave for mother-in-law 75%?
#
So these are the things.
#
We understand that now a lot of our employees,
#
they go on site and they are on site for months together.
#
And they don't get to kind of enjoy with their family.
#
And ultimately, if you look at, see, we all can talk about
#
higher principles and higher objectives of life.
#
But at that level, they're all working for their family.
#
And if they can't enjoy somebody's daughter's birthday,
#
fifth birthday or sixth, tenth birthday or 18th birthday,
#
I think that's something that they miss.
#
And we say that, no problem.
#
You don't have to, you just have to, you know,
#
this birthday is going to be there at a certain point of time.
#
You just have to take a flight or take a train and come back.
#
You don't have to inform anybody
#
and just spend time with your family and go back
#
and manage a day's work or two days' work and that's okay.
#
And companies paying for the flights.
#
And companies paying for the flight and everything.
#
So those are the small, small things that,
#
flexible things that you can do, which large companies cannot do.
#
Supposing I'm working in your company, okay?
#
My colleague on the next desk who gets paid the same as me
#
has three children, okay, one mother-in-law,
#
one father-in-law, et cetera, et cetera.
#
So he's getting like a huge number of paid leaves because of family.
#
I am all alone in this world.
#
And I'm looking at this guy and thinking,
#
this bugger gets 17 paid leaves and I get none.
#
Will you also give me 17 paid leaves?
#
The point is that he is going through living with all those relationships.
#
If you are not wanting to go through those 16, 17 relationships
#
or whatever that we are talking about.
#
But that's, I think we are basically,
#
But why third child is because I think if you go to rural India,
#
the semi-urban India, there are three kids.
#
And I think that's the reality of life.
#
And we cannot build systems or build benefits
#
without keeping the reality in mind.
#
So we built all that with that.
#
So these are the interesting kind of benefits that we build around
#
so that we beat the larger organizations on this.
#
Larger organizations will not.
#
They have to get approval from their US headquarter
#
or maybe a German headquarter.
#
We can do it at our own stage.
#
So these are different, different kind of frameworks that we have built.
#
We don't say, so now, okay, I'll give you another example.
#
Now you want to kind of assign a task.
#
And most of the times, because of the communication
#
or the clarity of instruction is not there.
#
You cannot really, a lot of things slip between the kind of instructions
#
and things don't happen.
#
Now, if you apply a simple framework like RASI,
#
which is basically any task that is there,
#
you put kind of an Excel sheet and put who is responsible for that task.
#
So the responsible is the person who will do the task.
#
Now, accountability is the person who, the manager of that person.
#
That means whatever may happen,
#
if that person basically does not deliver,
#
this person is accountable.
#
He has to figure out a result.
#
So he is, one is responsible for action
#
while the other is responsible for result.
#
So there is a separation of power there.
#
Then we are talking about who should be consulted for doing this.
#
So while this work is being done, somebody should be asked advice and all.
#
So that is done through consulting.
#
And while these things are happening, somebody needs to be informed.
#
Now, this might look very simple,
#
but when you go to organizations
#
and you see so many communication issues that are there
#
because of this simple rule not being followed.
#
Now, you use this RASI structure for,
#
so you take any action in the organization
#
or any task in the organization and put a RASI.
#
Your success rate for task getting completed goes much, much, much higher.
#
Just apply this simple framework.
#
I'm going to apply it now.
#
Like Food Lovers of Bombay is you, me, Naren and Subrath.
#
Now, Subrath is not in town,
#
but we have to meet Naren for dinner after this recording.
#
So it is therefore going to be my responsibility to choose where to go.
#
But you are accountable on making sure that we get there.
#
And Naren is a person who has to be consulted.
#
That can he make it in time?
#
And Subrath has to be informed with the selfies.
#
So there is something called another framework that is called Rapid Framework.
#
That is basically a decision-making role clarity.
#
So what happens is that in an organization,
#
everybody looks up to the top and says that,
#
that is the person who is going to do everything.
#
And then things don't happen.
#
So you can actually give roles to different, different people.
#
So somebody can get a role to recommend.
#
Somebody can get a role to agree.
#
Somebody can get a role to perform.
#
Somebody can get a role to give inputs.
#
And somebody can get a role to decide.
#
Now, if we basically based on everybody's competencies,
#
recommend is somebody who has a 360 degree of world,
#
who basically is into kind of research and all.
#
That person will kind of take a view of multiple things and recommend.
#
That, okay, this is the right thing to do.
#
Now, somebody who is a good evaluator would say, okay, fine, this is a person.
#
I have checked whatever he's done is right.
#
He has done his homework and he or she has done his homework.
#
And I can say, okay, I agree with what is being proposed.
#
Now, somebody has to make that happen.
#
So that role is going to be performed.
#
So who is going to perform that thing?
#
And then there are inputs that are needed at various stages for that.
#
So there is somebody who will keep giving inputs for that.
#
And there is somebody who will decide on this.
#
So basically that decide person is the person
#
who is the final authority on what should be happening.
#
Now, if you apply, if you want kind of decision making for anything,
#
you apply the simple rapid framework
#
and you can actually get decisions happening in the organization much faster.
#
So these are very small, small, interesting frameworks for business.
#
And I think we all are exposed to a lot of management books
#
and a lot of stuff available and we are evolved.
#
But if you really go to an entrepreneur
#
who is just doing a business of 20, 30, 40 crore,
#
who is actually lost into day to day work
#
and every day solving some problem or other,
#
if you give him small, small frameworks like this
#
and if they can establish, his time gets free a lot.
#
And that person can then think about growth,
#
that can think about how can expand business and stuff like that.
#
So these are operational frameworks.
#
These are frameworks that you solve your day to day problems,
#
that you solve structure problems in the organization.
#
And these are things that we are trying to build.
#
So Bagwe is basically through his learning over a period of time,
#
he has this repository of frameworks,
#
many of them he has developed on his own.
#
And those are the things that we are trying to kind of structure into how frameworks.
#
Looking back at your own sort of career and entrepreneurial journey in hindsight,
#
do you remember making mistakes or not doing things you should have done
#
that could have been different had you had one of these frameworks available to you then?
#
So there is a framework which talks about how do you kind of grow within, grow your company.
#
Now there is something called the existing products
#
And there is something called as existing market and new markets.
#
And you cannot go into new market with a new product ever
#
because everything is unknown, unknown.
#
Now what you do ideally you should do is basically you have existing customer,
#
that existing customer you have built a trust
#
and you can basically introduce a new product to that.
#
So new product will go to existing customer first
#
and then will go to a new customer or basically building new territory.
#
So in new territory, you will always sell an existing product and not a new product.
#
Now this is such a simple framework.
#
But when you at that point of time, I never could see things in this manner.
#
Now today when I am kind of looking at growth,
#
I always ask this question, whom am I selling it to?
#
Is it my existing customer or is the customer new?
#
Is my existing product which kind of is built and very kind of developed
#
or very I would say established product or is it something new?
#
So it's a very simple, small framework that helps me a lot.
#
Now something like Rasi, I think if I would have built all the tasks in my organization
#
and had applied to Rasi or everything, the life would have been much, much, much simpler.
#
I think yes, definitely I feel that 10 years back had I had access to these frameworks,
#
my life would have been much better.
#
Maybe I would have created a much bigger company then.
#
So tell me what is a model?
#
So let's say I run a business which is 30, 40, 50 crores.
#
Maybe started by my father or my uncle or whatever.
#
It's kind of a family business.
#
It's gotten to a certain size but it's plateaued.
#
Every day I'm spending time basically firefighting.
#
The world is changing really fast around me.
#
How do I benefit from your services?
#
So what we basically are looking at building.
#
Right now it's an MVP, Minimal Bible product.
#
Just 10 videos we have put in.
#
We plan to build at least 100 videos in the next three to six months' time.
#
And what we are going to do is that we put an algorithm in the front.
#
And typically over the last 20 years of experience of Bhagavatsar
#
working with a teaching and learning community
#
with more than a thousand such companies,
#
he has a structure in place in terms of what could be your pain in the business.
#
Be it basically people management.
#
Be it basically growth.
#
This could be there are a few more typical problems that mid-size company would have.
#
So we would ask you a few questions and we kind of zero down to your problem.
#
And with that problem, then we will say, okay, fine.
#
This problem, if you need to solve, you need to kind of think in this framework.
#
So we will give you a basic framework or maybe a set of frameworks.
#
Let's say five or six frameworks in this sequence.
#
If you watch, you will get some kind of understanding.
#
Now we are also working towards.
#
So we are seeing that just giving frameworks is not going to work.
#
We need to give some kind of dashboards to people so that how can they track the progress?
#
We kind of give them a detailed instruction sheet,
#
which will basically give them a step-by-step execution.
#
We feel today we are all experimenting.
#
So we don't know what is going to be the response.
#
We are basically giving our putting our best foot forward.
#
But we feel that somewhere we need to give them some kind of a remote consultancy
#
or remote support in terms of email or in terms of WhatsApp or something like that needs to be there.
#
So we are looking at keeping it very kind of not so expensive,
#
maybe around 12 to 15 thousand rupees per year as a subscription and access to fully.
#
And basically we are wanting them to discuss their challenges on a forum within the portal
#
and kind of share with each other their challenges and learn from each other also.
#
So that's the kind of model that we have thought of.
#
But I think we will evolve the model going forward.
#
But the fundamental thing is basically give them kind of a thinking,
#
helping them think better.
#
I think that's the way we would like to put this venture to be.
#
Let them kind of be aware about their problem and see the structure.
#
How do you fit that into a structure
#
and get a kind of a holistic long term solution instead of just solving the pain.
#
If they can solve the underlying problem, the real kind of cause that would be better.
#
So the idea being that unlike what say a consultant would do or McKinsey would do,
#
you're not going in there and saying this is your problem.
#
Implement this ABC and things will get better.
#
Instead, you're just going there with frameworks and thinking tools and saying that,
#
okay, think for yourself so they can solve, you know,
#
and therefore they are not just solving a problem by figuring it out.
#
But because they have that larger framework,
#
they can prevent future problems of the same kind and function better in everywhere.
#
And then we will be so they will solve one problem,
#
but that's not going to solve all the problems for them.
#
So then we have some other problem coming up.
#
There will be some other problem coming up.
#
Also, as a business, we will also learn from people's problems.
#
So we will also evolve our model, our service offering over a period of time.
#
See, the whole point is we want them to have their growth much easier.
#
There is a lot of struggle that happens for growth.
#
I think with these thinking tools, their struggle would be much lesser.
#
We are not saying there will not be struggles.
#
I think if there is no new struggles, everybody will become entrepreneur.
#
But that's not the case.
#
I think struggles will be there.
#
But we are trying to kind of elevate the pain.
#
We are trying to kind of give them a direction.
#
We are not going to claim that we will solve their problems
#
because again, how does one in every individual learn
#
and their pace of learning, their pace of implementation, all that matters.
#
But we are definitely giving them kind of nudge to think better and move forward.
#
So, you know, speaking of learning, I want to kind of now shift the focus back
#
to your personal learning, you know, in the sense you've already spoken
#
about your intellectual curiosity, your IEP, intellectual investment plan
#
and all of that, how you subscribe to different podcasts and all of that.
#
And what I'm also curious about is the different aspects of learning,
#
like what role does writing play?
#
And also I've been fascinated where I learned that last year, I think,
#
you also taught crypto and the reason that you taught crypto to a group of people,
#
I think it was the Ascent Finance Special Interest Group.
#
The reason you taught crypto to this group of people is because you wanted to learn crypto.
#
And the moment I heard that mentally, I started clapping
#
because I just think that that's beautiful.
#
In fact, these days, when I try to learn something,
#
I try to tell myself that I want to learn in such a way that I can teach.
#
Because, you know, as Krish Shok said in his episode with me,
#
that there's a pyramid of learning.
#
And the shallowest form of learning is maybe just reading something casually
#
and you're skimming over it.
#
But the deepest form of learning is to teach it.
#
And you decided because you really want to learn crypto,
#
you will offer to teach it, make that commitment.
#
So you will be forced to learn it well yourself.
#
Tell me about this philosophy and how this process was.
#
So there was a group of people we were discussing.
#
So there are multiple WhatsApp groups that Ascent has,
#
almost around 800 entrepreneurs with Ascent now.
#
And there is a group called Business and Finance and I curate that group.
#
And we wanted to engage people there in that group.
#
And we wanted to keep people together and keep coming back to that group again and again.
#
And so I just had a poll.
#
I think WhatsApp had just had a poll that time that that new feature had been introduced.
#
And I asked people what you would like to kind of learn.
#
And people said there's a lot of noise around crypto and people wanted to learn crypto.
#
And there was a lot of speculation around crypto and prices going up and all.
#
And as an entrepreneur, everybody was like, can I risk and can I get into it?
#
So I said, fine, no problem.
#
And then what I said that, okay, fine, if I have to teach,
#
make everybody teach, I need to learn something first and I don't know anything about it.
#
And then I said, okay, fine.
#
I can do one thing is that I can teach while I'm learning.
#
And maybe I have to be a week ahead or 10 days ahead of everybody else.
#
And that's how then I think everything is possible with YouTube.
#
YouTube has such a rich information and knowledge available that you kind of.
#
So I went on to search.
#
So CTQ compound, Ramanan and Harish, that model was there.
#
So I said, okay, I'll use the same model.
#
So we moved everything to Telegram.
#
I said, I don't want everybody to be there on WhatsApp.
#
So we moved to Telegram, made people.
#
So out of this 800, we had almost around 60 odd people subscribing to this.
#
And some people even asked that my friend is interested who is not from Ascent.
#
Would you be okay having them?
#
And I said, fine, no problem.
#
And we had around 60 people there.
#
And what I did was that I went from.
#
So I created a structure in mind that I look at it like, I don't know anything about crypto.
#
So then you need to basically go to the basics of what is currency, what is money.
#
So I started with that basic as I see what is money, what is currency?
#
How did currency come into play?
#
How did transaction happen?
#
What is the store of value?
#
So all those things I get got into that.
#
So there is a lot of material available onto internet.
#
So basically I use the simple model of why and how and what.
#
So I said that why crypto is the first thing.
#
So what is happening currently in the market?
#
What is the currency that is there in the market?
#
And so picked up videos on that.
#
There are beautiful videos on money.
#
There are beautiful videos on currency.
#
So what I created is that I would take one video and every alternate day I would post that.
#
So I created something I think around 50 videos I found out which are step by step.
#
So around 15 videos were on why.
#
Another 15 videos on how and another 15 videos on what.
#
So we covered why and what is the need of crypto.
#
So basically how the entire ecosystem of crypto has evolved.
#
What are the different, different kinds of what is platform?
#
What are the different, different currencies which are available?
#
And why, what do they do?
#
And then there are basically people who are trying to dupe others.
#
And so all those things were covered into the second why.
#
And then we moved to what.
#
So now people wanted actual advice in terms of which cryptocurrencies they can buy.
#
What other options are there?
#
So that entire structure was done.
#
And I just said that, okay, fine.
#
The way I would like to learn is the way I will teach.
#
So I went like and I don't know anything about crypto.
#
I don't know anything about money.
#
And how would I kind of structure my learning?
#
Same principles I applied there.
#
Picked up videos from YouTube, created links and delivered that.
#
Delivered that entire course.
#
It was a very interesting course.
#
I understood that the way people were trying to kind of invest in crypto.
#
There's a lot of speculation around it.
#
I didn't invest into that, but I got a fairly good understanding of it.
#
I can't claim to be a crypto expert per se.
#
But I think I had enough knowledge to understand what is kind of a lot of how about it.
#
And what is really the stuff that can work.
#
So today I know what I can go after or where I can.
#
If I want to invest where I can invest and where I can.
#
I know that much, at least for sure.
#
We should form a shadowy group called KKK, right?
#
And I'll take the liberty of spelling crypto with a K.
#
And what does it stand for KKK?
#
Crypto ke kutte kameen hai.
#
No, I'm really pissed off because you didn't call me for this course, man.
#
I think you better send me.
#
Aapne playlist bana hai kya YouTube videos ka?
#
I can send it to you now also.
#
Can we offer it to our listeners?
#
I think I have it on Notion.
#
I can give a public link and send it to them.
#
Yeah, so I'll link it from the show notes.
#
So already there is deep excitement.
#
But only someone who's already gotten five hours into the podcast will benefit from it.
#
Remaining people don't deserve it.
#
So, no, it's fascinating.
#
And so give me your top level, you know, after all the stuff that you've done on crypto.
#
And I wish before I recorded my episode with Vitalik Buterin, I wish I had spoken to you
#
because when that episode was scheduled, I was thinking ki yaar shit, I need a primer badly.
#
Because I know nothing about crypto.
#
Luckily Ajay Shah was with me.
#
He gave me a bit of a primer and he was my co-host.
#
But what is your top level view of crypto as a whole?
#
So I think crypto as a currency.
#
I see challenges because I think governments will always keep their monopoly on the currency
#
and they would not allow their control over currency to go.
#
So crypto as a currency, I am not really sure how it will fly.
#
And that's why it will always remain as a speculative kind of instrument.
#
People, whatever people may say.
#
But the decentralization around crypto and the kind of contracts that one can build,
#
automatic serving contracts where once your conditions are fulfilled,
#
you kind of deliver the contracts the way it is there.
#
I think those are the interesting applications.
#
So as a platform, the way decentralization operates is something which is very interesting
#
But as a currency, I think I would not be bullish.
#
I have not invested in crypto, per se, my own money.
#
Because I do not invest into something that I don't understand.
#
So I cannot, though I did that primer and I learned about it,
#
I learned enough to not invest into it, is what I would say.
#
But as a platform, I think as a decentralization platform,
#
as a platform where smart contracts can be built,
#
it's a very wonderful application.
#
I think it can work very well.
#
Yeah, and in my limited learning, I kind of agree with that in the sense that I don't feel
#
I really, I don't see how it's a store of value.
#
I don't grok its utility as a currency well enough to,
#
I mean, I just don't understand enough to ever endorse myself.
#
But the philosophy and the mechanics of decentralization are fascinating to me.
#
And you know, more than Ethereum, more than Ether as a currency,
#
it's Ethereum as a platform on which you build things.
#
It's something that's deeply fascinating to me.
#
So we are on the same page and the same page is basically,
#
we're not going to do it, but it's interesting, but we're not going to do it.
#
So that's the easiest page to actually come onto.
#
And my penultimate question is really going to be a two-part one,
#
which isn't a penultimate two-part.
#
But anyway, my penultimate question is going to be a two-part question
#
and it's going to be about A, the structure of your days and B,
#
the structure of broken down, the structure of your learning within that time
#
or your productive time.
#
Like a quote that I think is really beautiful
#
and that we should all think about is by Annie Dillard,
#
where she says, how we live our days is how we live our lives.
#
So I think that someone as intentional as you has surely put his thought into
#
how you structure a typical day.
#
And that's what I want to ask about.
#
And obviously, today you've completely wasted,
#
you spend the whole day talking to me.
#
So it's not wasted for me, it's wasted for you.
#
But thank you for that.
#
But what is the structure of your typical day?
#
How do you think about it in terms of priorities and how you divide your time?
#
And the second part is a much more, I think,
#
mechanistic question about your knowledge stack, your tech stack.
#
So last few years, I've been quite intentional about my life.
#
I get up at five o'clock in the morning.
#
Five to six is something which I basically give to myself,
#
a little bit of stretching and kind of exercise, movement.
#
And then I head for gym at around six o'clock.
#
Six to seven thirty, I spend time in a gym.
#
Or if I go for a walk, I generally go for a walk or a slow run
#
that I would do around eight kilometers is what I do.
#
Hopefully listening to podcasts.
#
Yeah, all the time listening to podcasts.
#
So I've seen and unseen.
#
I finished it in a couple of days.
#
Now, earlier, I used to listen at 1x.
#
Now I listen at 1.5, 1.66.
#
So gym or basically exercise.
#
I feel that with my age, focusing on health is very important.
#
That's the ball I cannot drop.
#
And that's a focus that I have.
#
Then at around eight to nine, then get ready and move to office.
#
I try and work for one, one and a half hour at stage
#
and then take a break and maybe read something
#
or listen to something for half an hour.
#
Yeah, I'm trying to bring a lot of kind of
#
intentionality on reading, on listening, on acquiring knowledge.
#
But I think I keep fighting the distractions.
#
One of the biggest distractions is the messages, the WhatsApp and all that.
#
And I am trying to kind of work on that.
#
Typical day in set around five, five thirty.
#
I squeeze in an hour or so on thinking about ideas that I want to write about.
#
I believe that writing is the way you have been talking about it very
#
again and again, that writing is basically a way of thinking.
#
So when I think, my thoughts are all jumbled.
#
But when I write, I kind of see the dissonance.
#
I kind of see that how they are not structured.
#
And when I start writing, the structure comes in place.
#
And that that's kind of peaceful.
#
Also, it's a very writing for me is meditative.
#
Actually, when I'm writing, I get stuff that I have in my head onto a piece of paper
#
or maybe mostly onto a screen, onto maybe word or whatever.
#
And I spend that one, one and a half hour of thinking about ideas,
#
thinking about what I can write.
#
I write mostly on business stuff.
#
I write mostly on LinkedIn.
#
What twice a week is what I have kept as a routine for myself.
#
Evenings, generally, I feel so I eat two meals a day.
#
So same like you after I think you talked about CGM.
#
I also bought CGM and I was around six point six, six point seven on my HB1C,
#
which I have brought it down to five point seven after I lost around.
#
And as you put me on to CGM.
#
So you're like Ajay's CGM grandchild.
#
I bought it from Ultra Human and use that.
#
So around six months, I had the CGM device and now I know what works, what does not work.
#
So I moved to intermittent fasting also.
#
I don't have anything until 1.30 in the afternoon.
#
I have my two meals between 1.30 and 7.30 or 8 max, 8, 8.30.
#
But finish my meal early, retire to bed early and maybe read something at least for half an hour,
#
45 minutes before that, or while going off to sleep, maybe listen to something.
#
So I listen to podcasts or I listen to story tell.
#
So story tell is something that gives me a nice, comfortable sleep.
#
So listen to something and go off to sleep with that.
#
Get up at five o'clock in the morning.
#
So get around seven and a half hours sleep at least every day.
#
Because I think that's very important.
#
If you want to have a productive day every day, sleeping on time, sleeping,
#
almost winding down an hour before you sleep, very important.
#
So a couple of hours between your last meal and sleep is very important.
#
So 7.30 to 9.30 is the time that I generally consciously build.
#
This has been happening for last at least three, three and a half years now.
#
That's the way I spend a day.
#
I've destroyed your schedule today.
#
So once in a while I do that.
#
What is like your tech stack?
#
So tech stack, basically very simple.
#
So I basically will write down ideas and then kind of expand them.
#
Then I use Grammarly sometimes.
#
Sometimes I will use Chatjipati and get some kind of drafts done.
#
But I don't pick up the way.
#
I don't write or I don't put whatever is Chatjipati given.
#
I use it as more of a prompt and more of an idea and kind of a structure,
#
points, most of the time points.
#
And then expand those points and build on that.
#
My reading most of the time happens through CTQ compound,
#
whatever articles that come or I have.
#
So what I have done is that I have my regular email ID
#
and I have a specified email ID from Hay.
#
So Hay is a service, email service, charges around $100 a year.
#
And my all newsletters go to Hay.
#
So if I go to Hay, it's only newsletters and nothing else.
#
And they have an interesting feature that you cannot get spam over there at all.
#
So every time there is a mail, you have to first agree or rather kind of white label
#
the mail coming from some source.
#
And only when you white label that mail will come into inbox.
#
Otherwise it will not come.
#
It will just be deleted.
#
So you don't get spam at all.
#
So I have my email ID, which is on Hay.com.
#
So that is a service that I use.
#
So all newsletters come there.
#
So I just go to Hay account and I can see my, read my newsletters one below other.
#
I have just my regular email ID does not get newsletters at all.
#
And apparently the engineers who built Hay, they only worked during the daytime.
#
They never worked at night because apparently the founder had read somewhere,
#
make hay while the sun shines.
#
These are the same guys who created this app called Basecamp.
#
Basecamp is a project management tool.
#
So the same guys who have built this Hay.
#
Very interesting product that they have.
#
And then basically if I like something, then I cut this and kind of push that to Readwise.
#
So Readwise is something where I store everything.
#
I have almost around, I think 3000, 3500 nuggets of that.
#
And I use those nuggets again for my LinkedIn posts.
#
So sometimes I may not have something interesting to write about,
#
or maybe I am being too lazy.
#
Then I pick up one of these interesting kind of quote from there.
#
And I would write around a hundred words around that.
#
But I ensure that I do two posts a week,
#
because I think that's a kind of a discipline that I wanted to want to keep.
#
So use that, use Notion to create the entire kind of repositories.
#
So I have some kind of gold readings, which I keep putting.
#
Recently, what I did is that I wanted to become regular on to LinkedIn.
#
And I wanted to be, I wanted to learn from young.
#
So I now have one intern whom I have hired.
#
That intern is from Pune.
#
Amazing guy called Akash.
#
And he's just 20 years old.
#
I think he's a student with a computer science student at Bharati Vidya Pune.
#
And he interns with me and one more gentleman who is, I think, a VC.
#
And he does, he helps me on the kind of understanding the text tech in LinkedIn.
#
He gives me a list of what I could write upon.
#
And he would bring me every day at least around five different posts,
#
which are interesting posts on LinkedIn.
#
So he basically kind of does a lot of research work for me.
#
And I basically learn from him the way young people think, today's people.
#
And a damn smart young kid he is, very, very smart kid he is.
#
And I met him in Pune a couple of months back, interviewing him.
#
Kind of how can he intern for me and what can he bring on the table?
#
And what an amazing maturity that boy has, just 20 years.
#
And he says that I do not have enough life experience,
#
so I would not like to talk much about me and what I can do.
#
I asked him, how much time will you give me?
#
And he said, no, no, no, I don't work on time.
#
So I will not be able to give you time per se or day per se.
#
But you give me tasks and I'll try and finish.
#
I'll ensure that it is finished within the timeline that you have given to me.
#
I was never smart like this at my age 20.
#
So that's another way I learn technology.
#
He set up my entire notion for my LinkedIn with my past links for my past post links,
#
the kind of engagement repository and LinkedIn algorithm,
#
all understanding about LinkedIn he has given to me.
#
That's another way I learn.
#
I told you about, I keep experimenting a lot of apps.
#
So I am a big fan of subscriptions.
#
So for this entire howframeworks.com, we have not used human voiceover.
#
So it's an AI voiceover.
#
So there is a service called Murph AI.
#
So basically, you put your text and then it gives you voice
#
and it gives you different, different kind of Indian voice or American voice,
#
male, female, deep or playful.
#
All those combinations are there.
#
So it's a paid subscription.
#
And learning it was very interesting because I had to kind of create pause,
#
so short pause, long pause and kind of very, very interesting tool.
#
So that's something that I have learned over the last three to six months time.
#
That's basically a simple tech stack.
#
Apart from the software, what's your hardware?
#
Like I can see some of it in front of me now.
#
So I basically moved to Mac in 2011.
#
I found it to be an easy option because everything is at one place.
#
So I use Mac for my work.
#
I use iPad for my reading and my phone is iPhone and my entire health.
#
So checking about my sleep times, checking about my exercise
#
and all that works on Apple Watch.
#
So I think I know you call it gated ear technology, but I'm okay.
#
I'm willing to give some freedom to get some convenience.
#
Well, I mean, it's a voluntary interaction, so that's perfectly fine.
#
The part that you knew would come recommendations for me and my listeners,
#
books, films, music, stuff that you love.
#
So do you want me to talk only about books and movies
#
or you want to talk about my other interests?
#
So I enjoy once in a while, a nice peg of a single malt whiskey.
#
You can recommend that by all means.
#
So when it comes to books, I knew this question would come.
#
So I had done some kind of a homework,
#
but I think every entrepreneur or everybody in this world must read one book.
#
If they have to read only one book, they should read
#
Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt.
#
The heart of concepts were cleared by that one book.
#
And I feel that it's an absolute first principle thinking that he talks about.
#
It's based on Basia's essay, That Which Is Seen and That Which Is Not Seen,
#
which is also the inspiration for this podcast.
#
Amazing book, the way he talks about tariffs,
#
the way he talks about supply demand, the way he talks about taxes.
#
So when you are paying 30% tax,
#
you are actually working for the government for four months and three months stuff.
#
Very interesting stuff.
#
Farnam Streets, The Great Mental Models.
#
These are the volume, three book volume.
#
Amazing book one must read.
#
Atomic Habit has a huge impact on me.
#
So I think my lot of habits and the structure of habits come from there.
#
Morgan Housel's Psychology of Money.
#
Ray Dalio's Principles is another interesting book that one should definitely read.
#
Kalini Port's Deep Work.
#
We all know it has been recommendation on your podcast for many
#
times and I think that's an interesting book.
#
Steve Jobs, I like that guy for what he built.
#
Apple, the Apple that he has built, the company that he has built.
#
And Walter Jackson's biography of Steve Jobs, I like that.
#
Unusual, another recommendation is Open Autobiography of Andrea Gassi.
#
Then All Posts by Paul Graham, All Posts on Farnam Street,
#
All Posts on Collab Fund.
#
If you look at the fiction, I recently, last one, one and a half year,
#
I have read a book called Gentleman in Moscow.
#
I think someone told you about that book couple of episodes back and I think-
#
People have recommended it.
#
Yeah, people have recommended it and that's an interesting book.
#
I love Roentgen Mystery, the way he writes about Parsi households in Bombay
#
and the times of 60s and 70s and 80s.
#
His Family Matters and Fine Balance, amazing books.
#
Frederick Beckman's A Man Called O, it became a movie also.
#
I think Man Called Oto is a movie that has come.
#
Eleanor Elephant is completely fine.
#
Gail Animan's book about a girl in London, beautiful.
#
Gachar Gachar, we all know, amazing book again.
#
If I have to go back to Marathi, then I will talk about the-
#
everything that you can read from P.L. Deshpande,
#
Pula Deshpande, we call him.
#
Vyakti and Valli is good.
#
Potato Chichal, another good book.
#
Asami, Asami, Apurvai, Apurvaranga.
#
Madhu Mangesh Karnik's Mahimji Kadi, beautiful book.
#
There is one book I remember.
#
This book I had read way back in 1992 or 93.
#
A book called Avirat by a guy called- author called Anand Samant.
#
He's a shippee and this is a book about a shippee
#
who comes back to India and starts a business
#
and how he gets lost into the bureaucracy.
#
I think I bought a book one day before and then
#
next day morning I was just kind of going through it.
#
Ki kya hai, let me have a look.
#
And it was such a fantastic book.
#
I started reading it at six o'clock in the morning
#
and I think some 11 o'clock in the night I finished it.
#
I didn't go out, I didn't go to work.
#
I just finished that book in one go.
#
Wow, is there a translation available?
#
That book is not available.
#
Currently that is out of print and I'm not getting it.
#
I don't know where is my copy that I had bought then.
#
I think it was left in my Nasik house.
#
Then Mrutwin Jaya, Swami, Sriman Yogi.
#
These are interesting books in Marathi.
#
Radheya, which is Ranjit Desai's book, Karna's point of view.
#
Yayati, it's a masterpiece in Marathi literature.
#
Duniyadari is another book about college life,
#
Suhas Shrivelkar, amazing book.
#
Another book in Marathi by author called Vapukale Partner.
#
Movies, I watch everything.
#
So my book is my movies that I love.
#
Godfather is one movie that I love.
#
Jaane Bhi Do Yaaro, I love Dil Chaata Hai.
#
I love Delhi Belly, I love Dil Dadakne Do.
#
Lunchbox is an amazing movie.
#
Wake Up Seed, a different movie.
#
Dhobi Ghat, I don't know but I like that movie.
#
Masani is another good movie.
#
Gangs of Wasseypur, I know it's very typical but that I liked.
#
I liked awareness day also.
#
Then I started listening, watching these non-Marathi,
#
non-English movies also and not the mainstream movies.
#
So this Mandela in Tamil, interesting movie about a guy,
#
a barber who basically gets into crossfire of votes
#
and how he transforms a town for better.
#
There's a fantastic movie called The Great Indian Kitchen
#
in Malayalam about a lady, how she has to go through
#
the kitchen, kitchen, kitchen all the time
#
and how she's frustrated with that.
#
Kumbhalangana, it's a very good movie.
#
Subrath had talked about Gamak Ghar, an interesting movie.
#
He also talked about Banshees of Ainsirin.
#
Those two amazing recommendations by Subrath, I watch them.
#
Your recommendations about Decalogue and Three Colours,
#
those fantastic movies.
#
If you go back to Marathi movies, then Jaitrey Jait,
#
Sivasan, Umbartha, Court, which is Chaitanya Taman's movie.
#
Then Harishchandra Chefactory about the life of Dawa Sehpalke.
#
Then Dogi and Dombili Fast, another interesting movie.
#
If we have to go to OTTs, then typical,
#
I have watched all the big IMDB high numbers.
#
So Game of Thrones, Mad Men, West Wing, Wire,
#
Newsroom, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, Ted Lasso,
#
Mindhunter, I watched all of them.
#
Miniseries I loved, Chernobyl and The Queen's Gambit.
#
Indian OTT, recently I watched The Hard, amazing OTT.
#
Guns and Gulab is interesting.
#
I watched Quora, I watched Asur.
#
Modern Love Chennai is very interesting.
#
It has one episode on how a married man falls in love
#
with another lady and how that lady comes
#
and they have a very decent talk on he is falling in love
#
with that girl and this lady who is his wife,
#
he decides to move away from his life.
#
And everything done so beautifully and so nicely.
#
I don't know, but I loved that.
#
So that Modern Love Chennai, I think it is episode four.
#
I watched The Bear, the story about a chef.
#
That's basically about the movies and OTTs and books all about.
#
You know, okay, I'll ask you a quiz question.
#
You once made this brilliant graphic of the scene
#
and the unseen which are linked from the show notes
#
and you put it up on Twitter about, you know,
#
it was this animated graphic which charted
#
the first 200 episodes, I think, length and everything,
#
blah, blah, blah, which is beautiful.
#
So I'll ask you a quiz question since you know the show so well.
#
There's an episode that I recorded with Subrata Mohanty
#
and Jai Arjun Singh, right?
#
You're aware of this episode?
#
What is unique about the episode
#
which cannot be set for any other episode?
#
What is unique about the episode which cannot be set?
#
That's an absolute difficult question.
#
There's no other episode like it.
#
It is the only episode where making the show notes
#
took more time for me than recording the episode.
#
Because Subrata kept naming film after film after film
#
and there were 400 links in the show notes
#
and for each one, I had to find out which, you know,
#
where you could actually see the film
#
and not lazily link to the IMDB page.
#
And it took me 11 hours to make the show notes.
#
So just now when you were rattling off films and books and all,
#
I was like, I'll send you the links.
#
No, I'll still have to put them in my format
#
so it'll take me that much time only.
#
No, no, it will, it will.
#
Restaurants, you're a foodie.
#
Tell me about your relationship with food.
#
So I think I love experimenting food
#
and though my tests are very traditional,
#
but within that traditional thing,
#
I kind of experiment with it.
#
And I love Indian food.
#
So I'm like, I don't waver too much.
#
I would love to experiment with multiple biryanis.
#
I still remember one biryani that I had at Khan Chacha in Delhi.
#
Khan Chacha is known for his rolls,
#
but then I loved his biryani and just plain rice.
#
I think it was cooked in the meat
#
and the kind of flavors were amazing.
#
It's a plain, simple biryani, white biryani.
#
So if you ask me which biryani I like,
#
I love Kolkata biryani.
#
I had traveled to Kolkata just to kind of go around the city
#
because I love Kolkata and I love food culture over there.
#
I have gone, there's an agency called Kolkata Walks.
#
They take you on a kind of different, different walks.
#
So they will take you to the various parts of Kolkata
#
and there is a food trip also that they take you around with.
#
It's not something which is very huge,
#
but yes, wherever I get an opportunity,
#
I try and kind of experiment.
#
So I love Konkan Cafe in Bombay,
#
which is basically a Konkan cuisine.
#
Next to that, there is Thai Pavilion.
#
Both these restaurants are Ananda Solomon restaurants.
#
He was kind of a legendary chef from Taj Group
#
and he I think recently retired,
#
moved out and started on his own.
#
He has this restaurant called Thai Nam
#
near Bombay Airport, International Airport.
#
Americano is another favorite that is in South Bombay.
#
Bombay Cantino, Pedro, Masala Library.
#
These are again, another of the restaurants here in Bombay.
#
I love Sin Sin for their Italian food,
#
Harkasan for its Asian, Pan-Asian food.
#
Nutcracker is a vegetarian place.
#
But then their Turkish eggs are amazing.
#
So eggs and vegetarian.
#
Masque when Pratik Sadhu was there,
#
it was a fantastic place, enjoyed that.
#
Unusual places in Bombay.
#
I think there is a place,
#
I don't know whether you have eaten there or not,
#
but me and Naren, we have eaten.
#
We are both fans of that place called Hotel Surekha,
#
which is between Thane and Bhaindar.
#
There is a place called Chena.
#
It's a creek and this is this fisherman family.
#
Two brothers have started this restaurant,
#
which is a small place.
#
Now it has become a big restaurant with a family
#
section and all and air-condition and all.
#
No one's taken me there.
#
The restaurant should actually have been called Bhature
#
because then you could have named that location Chena Bhature.
#
Okay, so this is basically Hotel Surekha.
#
I have always been in Dadar because of my school
#
and then there is a place called Hotel Prakash.
#
I had once taken Naren to that Dadar tour.
#
So there is Hotel Prakash,
#
which gives amazing Sabudana Vada,
#
best Sabudana Vada in the world you can get.
#
So I still remember when I was still in school,
#
I used to eat that Sabudana Vada once in 15 days.
#
So father used to give two rupees as a pocket money
#
and I had a friend who used to travel from Vikrali
#
to Sadashram with me and every 15 days on Saturday,
#
we would spurge that on Sabudana Vada.
#
So Sabudana Vada was one rupee a plate then,
#
And now I keep going there.
#
So recently, I think a couple of months back,
#
I must have gone there.
#
It is, I think, 73 rupees a plate now.
#
Did you have your CGM on with pure starch?
#
I know that, but once in a while, it's fine.
#
I do that once in a while just for the sake of it.
#
There is Ashok Vada Pav.
#
I think everybody loves near Kirti College.
#
That's an amazing Vada Pav.
#
Then if you ask all cricketers,
#
so Sachin or maybe even Vinod Kamli,
#
they would swear by there is Bhaji Pav,
#
Batata Bhaji and Pav at Udhyan Ganesh.
#
There is a temple in Shivaji Park called Udhyan Ganesh Mandir.
#
And next to that temple, there is a Bhaji Vada Pavwala.
#
And he has this Bhaji Pav, which is very famous.
#
All the cricketers who played at Shivaji Park would know them.
#
Then there is this Chabildas Vada that everybody knows,
#
which is called Shri Krishna Vada, which is amazing.
#
Used to be around 55 paise then in 1983-84.
#
I think it's some 40 bucks now, a plate.
#
They have amazing samosa, which is filled with Kandapua.
#
These are all full of carbs, but once in a while,
#
I go for the nostalgia that is there.
#
Then there is this Thane, we have Mamledar Misal,
#
which is basically very spicy misal.
#
So the way they say is that it is Tikat.
#
It is Khoop Tikat and Bharpur Tikat,
#
which is basically spicy, super spicy and super super spicy.
#
And the super spicy is really, really thing.
#
Naren and me, we have thought of going there next time
#
when he is around in Thane.
#
Then there are some interesting restaurants in Thane, in Nasik.
#
There are all, again, mutton restaurants.
#
Pune, I love Marzorin, which is sandwiches,
#
amazing sandwiches that are there.
#
When I was in Blue Star, I used to go to a restaurant
#
called Café Naaz in Pune.
#
I think it is still there, amazing samosas.
#
And the specialty of that is that
#
you won't order a plate of samosa.
#
They will always get you a dozen samosas and you eat.
#
And whatever is remaining, then they will bill it.
#
So they will take back and bill you for the rest.
#
So if your remaining is two, that means you have eaten 10,
#
they will always give you a dozen samosas.
#
If there are three, four people, they will give you a dozen samosas.
#
But they will bill you for 10 if you have eaten 10.
#
Or they will bill you for all 12.
#
No, they will bill you for 10 only.
#
They will bill you for 10.
#
But they will put 12 in front of you.
#
But they will put 12 in front of you.
#
What a marketing strategy.
#
This is both very good and very bad.
#
What an interesting Café Naaz in Pune.
#
In Bangalore, there is an interesting restaurant called Karawali,
#
Then there is Ponnuswamy in Chennai.
#
In Kolkata, there is Arsalan, amazing food.
#
Flourish is an amazing breakfast.
#
Peter Kat has Jello Kebabs there.
#
There is typical Bangla food if you want to eat a thali.
#
There is a place called Aheli and six Baliganj place.
#
There are famous Nizam rolls there.
#
And then there is a typical Jhal Muri,
#
which is what we call Bhel in Bombay.
#
But they call Jhal Muri, a different taste.
#
The Middleton and Chemex Street Junction.
#
Recently, I think Shubhat was in Kolkata.
#
And we had eaten at the same place.
#
So I think we had eaten on a good level.
#
If you want to pay in slash support on a date,
#
contribute any amount you like.
#
To keep this podcast alive and kicking.
#
Basically, I think I would not like to take too much of time.
#
These are the things that I enjoy and love.
#
You told me something very interesting about perfumes once.
#
And you know the importance they have in your life.
#
So I have this association with perfumes
#
that I always felt anybody who is rich smelled better.
#
And that's what my kind of aspiration to be.
#
If I made money, then I should smell better.
#
And that's how I had seen people.
#
My boss, I used to, my super boss,
#
one Mr. Garde, who used to be in Blue Star,
#
had amazing perfumes on him.
#
And I always used to wonder about those perfumes.
#
And that kind of became kind of obsession for me.
#
And when I had some money,
#
and when I had some kind of affluence in life,
#
I bought a lot of perfume.
#
And I buy Ami, Chanel, Giorgio Armani, Calvin Klein, Dior, Hugo.
#
What is a desert island perfume?
#
Desert island perfume is what?
#
You only allowed one perfume for the rest of your life.
#
I think there's Ami's, Te De Ami is a beautiful perfume.
#
I have, I think three bottles of them.
#
That's the perfume that I can always wear anytime.
#
On that note, Sudhir, thank you so much.
#
I've had, you know, I don't know where the day went.
#
It's been such a wonderful time.
#
And yeah, and this is the first time you're here.
#
Obviously not the last time.
#
So thank you so much for your time.
#
Thank you so much for having me here.
#
You can follow me on Twitter at Amit Varma, A-M-I-T-B-A-R-M-A.
#
You can browse past episodes of The Scene and the Unseen at sceneunseen.in.
#
Thank you for listening.
#
Did you enjoy this episode of The Scene and the Unseen?
#
If so, would you like to support the production of the show?
#
You can go over to sceneunseen.in slash support
#
and contribute any amount you like to keep this podcast alive and kicking.
