Ep 351： Pallavi Aiyar Has Seen the World

I tend to be very rational. But on the other hand, my father is not a nurturing person and he's not at all connected to his feelings in any kind of deep way.

4434

And my mother was. She was very much there for us.

4438

And so when my parents got divorced, I'm just very lucky to have been with my mother because I think she was a nurturer and she made it very clear to me that I was number one.

4448

And that protected me in a way that I think is maybe in other children who come from families which split up, do not have.

4456

My father, for example, remarried a year later and moved to the United States and sort of very much lived his life.

4462

My mother almost sort of paused her life to kind of bring us up.

4466

So emotionally, I think she was an incredibly important part of my life.

4471

I think I want to be a parent like her. I want to kind of be all love for my children because I think I realized that children will forgive you a lot of mistakes.

4480

We all make mistakes as parents as long as they feel that density of unconditional love.

4487

And it was very much there from her.

4489

Gang was the person who kind of gave me the ability to be different, you know, not necessarily part of a group.

4496

And he also made me a reader and a writer. He's the person that I would write for who was my audience.

4501

My brother was in boarding school and my mother was busy.

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They weren't that many. You know, I didn't have play dates. I didn't have.

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There was no Internet or anything like that.

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So I would amuse myself by writing and then Gang would read them and I would ask him questions.

4516

And he was the only person I knew who'd been to places like the Serengeti or whatever.

4520

So I would set my plays and my short stories in these impossibly exotic locales by drawing a little bit of information from him.

4528

He was quite a normie character, so he wasn't very talkative.

4530

He would only tell you, you know, whatever you asked, he would tell you in a couple of sentences.

4536

But again, he was a very important influence, I think, when it came to just being not necessarily part of a crowd,

4543

but, you know, somebody who kind of, you know, marches to their own tune.

4546

So all three of them were important to me in different ways.

4550

And I hope that I sort of was able to amalgamate some of the best qualities of all three of them.

4556

I'm fascinated by sort of the dichotomy in particular or the binaries or whatever, duality between your father and your mother.

4563

It was very stark.

4564

Yeah, it's very stark. And I also, you know, would place myself in his category.

4569

And what you say is your category, atheist, rationalist, all of that.

4572

Until I've come to realize over time recently that the mind does not make you happy, only the heart does.

4580

And you have to open yourself up to that.

4582

Like, you know, in your, again, amazing book on parenting, you have these lines.

4586

I'd learned mathematics, history and geography in school.

4589

I'd studied Aristotle and Kant, Foucault and Baudrillard at university.

4592

But although there was much that I knew about humankind's collective inquiries into epistemology and ontology,

4598

no one ever told me anything about babies.

4600

What does it say about contemporary society that it can churn out a person who can speak foreign languages, dance a tango,

4606

be paid to lecture on Chinese politics,

4608

discuss how far the taxation policies instituted by the Count Duke Olivares had contributed to the decline of 17th century Spain,

4615

and yet had no clue how to feed and entertain a baby all day long.

4620

It became clear to me that I was essentially a quote unquote man.

4624

I knew all about the public world of quote unquote work,

4627

but nothing about the quote unquote womanly art of nurturing children, stop quote.

4632

And I'm very curious about sort of this, you know, resolving within yourself,

4638

both your father and your mother who you kind of carry with you.

4641

And it would seem to me from a very superficial reading of your books that perhaps a journey is from the father to the mother's side of things,

4649

from the intellect to the nurturing experiential.

4652

Tell me what that journey has been like in reconciling yourselves.

4655

My mother was, you know, while she was very nurturing and all of that,

4659

I think she was also a feminist of her generation, which was very much all about work.

4664

She never cooked. I had no interest in cooking either because I never saw my mother cook.

4670

And I kind of therefore perhaps imbibed a little bit of that from her,

4674

that, you know, we didn't talk about babies, we didn't talk about family, we didn't think of family.

4678

She wouldn't have either in that sense.

4680

There was this public, there was a separation between the public and the private, I think, as far as she was concerned.

4685

There was this professional side and then, you know, whatever happened at home was at home.

4689

I think I would took that further and really felt very deeply and continue to feel that that separation is artificial and that it is harmful.

4697

And that for all of us as human beings, whether we are men or women,

4700

it's very important to kind of fuse the public and private spheres together and have an entire person.

4706

And for workplaces to acknowledge the importance of families, just as families need to, like your children, for example,

4712

need to acknowledge the importance of you as a professional.

4715

So I was different from my mother in that sense because I think she was quite old fashioned in that,

4720

which is why I probably didn't know much about babies.

4722

She never talked to me very much about babies.

4724

And when I asked her about, you know, she wasn't at all helpful to me when I had my own babies.

4730

I was very disappointed. I asked her to come to be with me and she was there for about a month.

4735

But, you know, she was completely useless.

4737

She couldn't remember how to make a bottle.

4739

I was desperately trying to breastfeed and she was like, oh, just give the baby formula.

4745

You know, I was like, what? You mean you didn't breastfeed me?

4748

She was like, no, I had to work. So I gave you formula.

4751

She seemed to have forgotten everything.

4752

She couldn't remember how to sort of put on a diaper.

4755

And then she also told me she found it yucky and she didn't want to touch the diapers.

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She was not at all the sort of typical mom in that sense.

4761

She kind of said, I will play with your children when they are two years old.

4764

I will love them. But until then, they're all yours.

4767

So I did feel a little bit like I had nobody to kind of tell me about the womanly arts of, you know, bringing up a baby.

4773

I didn't have an extended family and my mother proved to be completely useless.

4777

I didn't have any grandparents alive by that time either.

4780

So it was a difficult time for me.

4781

And perhaps I think more and more women are in my position because we are not in these extended families.

4788

And, you know, a lot of our parents themselves have like, you know, they're having kids older.

4793

So by the time, if you are in your 30s and by the time your children have kids, 30 years have gone by.

4798

Everything has changed. Technology has changed.

4800

The sort of conventional wisdom on how to bring up children has changed.

4803

So this idea that, you know, your parents will tell you or your mother will tell you how to look after, I think is very outdated, even if it ever had any cache.

4812

And so I've had to kind of forge it.

4815

I am my mother in some ways.

4817

My mother was a very tense person.

4819

She was an anxious person.

4820

I think I'm a sort of tense and anxious person.

4822

I adjust cushions in the way that she adjusts cushions.

4826

I tidy up the carpet in the way that she would sort of tidy up the carpet.

4830

She used to have this antenna.

4831

She would walk into a room and before she said hello, she would kind of go scan the room.

4836

And if anything was out of place, she would first go to that place and sort of organize it.

4840

And it would drive me nuts when I was a teenager and I found myself becoming exactly like her and I terrorize my children with the cushions and being neat and so on and so forth.

4849

But I think rather than sort of a linear journey of saying going from the rationality towards being more of a nurturer, I'm not sure that there's been that kind of linearity in the journey.

4860

And I'm also not sure that I would call my mother all nurture.

4863

She was many things.

4865

And I certainly think that I channel her in many ways, but not in all.

4870

I mean, I didn't mean a linear journey, but just perhaps a deepening of the rational self.

4876

Understanding the rationality is ultimately not.

4880

Yeah, like, you know, at different parts, you kind of refer to this in the context of Punditri, for example, the quote I already read out.

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Then in your first book, you speak about the cliches around China and India where you write quote, India was good at software.

4892

China had hardware was one such insight, quote unquote.

4895

India should learn to invest in infrastructure from China while China should look to India's financial and legal institutions for tips was another.

4902

In short, the consensus seemed to be that India should get the roads and China the democracy.

4906

There was a nice symmetry to these sentiments that captured the way in which India and China did in fact mirror each other's failures and achievements.

4912

But even the less perspicacious among critics on both sides of the border had little trouble pointing out that if China had democracy, perhaps it would not have had the roads.

4921

And I was struck by this partly because of this tendency.

4925

Like Parumita Vohra has these two great phrases which captures what experts, particularly male experts, tend to do.

4931

And she refers to the typical male expert like this as man with beard.

4936

So men with beards are pontificating and the other phrase she uses is jogging on the spot.

4940

Like I was recently at a conference where I thought everybody has been jogging on the spot for 30 years.

4945

So they have their one idea and they keep regurgitating it in different ways.

4949

And what I see in your writing is that you've avoided these certainties.

4956

Like today people rise to preeminence and they become experts and they're supposed to exude certainty and most often they're wrong.

4963

That's ridiculous. I think anyone, the more you know, the less you know.

4966

The more you know, the less you know.

4968

You also at one point you use…

4970

Only the ignorant have certainty. You know what? It's a fact.

4974

Television requires certainty and therefore only the ignorant become gurus these days.

4978

But you use a great term an guru where at one point you wrote, I am a columnist, I am also an an guru.

4983

Mostly I just know how little I know.

4985

As a result I often feel like a fraud.

4987

A columnist should be someone who knows what they're talking about.

4989

That's why people read them.

4990

But this columnist dear reader has an appalling track record when it comes to knowing stuff.

4994

I get everything wrong.

4995

Which is not true. You've got a lot of things right.

4997

You've got China right, partly because you looked at it through a different lens in Western observers.

5002

I was in fact told by a mutual friend I'm not allowed to name that

5006

your insight is staggering but you don't credit yourself enough with it.

5010

I've been told about how you got Indonesia right and various other places right.

5014

So I think you've probably been overly modest in listing your failures as you did after that paragraph which you wrote.

5020

But my deeper question there is that at one level it is fine that the more you know, the less you know.

5026

But at another level this can also hobble you.

5029

Because the worst can be full of passionate certainty while the best are constantly inflicted with self-doubt.

5035

There is even a quote to that effect. I forget exactly what it is.

5038

But isn't that a line that you have to cross?

5042

Because the other thing that one sees is you've written fantastic travelogues.

5045

Both your novels about cats are like so charming.

5048

I love your newsletter. Your personal essays recently have just been so moving and have just blown me away.

5053

But hidden throughout all of these and stray paragraphs here and there

5058

almost like the, you know, like the train moving past and you see fragments.

5062

There are all these really sharp insights, right, nuanced insights.

5066

And is there then a trade-off that at some level you have had to make about which of these to privilege?

5074

You know, I write a lot about foreign countries and to be honest, Amit, I think that it's a very foolhardy enterprise,

5080

you know, to sort of go off and live somewhere for four years and then write the story of that country.

5086

And how would you like it if somebody came from, I don't know, some foreign country came here

5091

and lived here for three years and then wrote an India book?

5093

I mean, it's an appalling act of audacity, you know.

5097

But that is one extreme. I get that.

5099

No, no. But what I mean is so I'm very aware when I write these books

5103

that I need to be very clear that what I'm writing is like very much my personal truth.

5108

And a lot of it is about flashes of insight, as you're saying.

5113

So rather than telling you the country, I'm telling you sort of specific moments of insight

5119

that might have come to me, you know, during the course of observation,

5124

during the course of deep reading, during the course of conversations.

5127

And that's the most that one can really lay claim to, that, you know, you're sort of presenting one version of the truth

5133

and that version of the truth is deeply colored by who is telling the truth, you know,

5137

the implicit lenses that we were talking about earlier and that ultimately it will be flashes of insight.

5142

It's a bit like a haiku, right? I mean, so you will have moments, I think,

5146

where there will be some kind of penetration and hopefully the reader will also have an epiphany.

5150

But this is not the definitive truth. This is not telling you this is Japan or this is China.

5155

And I would never lay claim to that. And I think that's very fraudulent.

5158

And I don't think that there's anything wrong with that.

5160

I don't think that you need to kind of be the pandit that's telling you that this is the way it is.

5165

It really is that way. There are many different ways of approaching things.

5169

And I try to bring the multiplicity of ways that you might approach a country out as well,

5174

because there tends to be many, many shades of gray always.

5177

And I think part of what I try to do is bring many of those shades of gray out,

5181

which means that it's very hard to come up with definitive conclusions.

5184

I will really say China good, Japan bad, Indonesia very bad, or, you know, going, going, going down the drain.

5190

You don't know. What you do know is that there are good tendencies, there are bad tendencies,

5195

that there are great things, there are fantastic moments, there are also worrying trends.

5200

So, you know, it's a complex situation. I try and bring out that complexity.

5204

And if you're going to try and bring out that complexity,

5206

there is going to be a little bit of wishy washyness about it,

5209

because that sort of very sort of strong certainty I do think is very male.

5213

And I don't think it's very necessary. And ultimately, it's counterproductive.

5217

I'm not sure what it's achieving. I mean, the number of people who've written about China,

5222

I remember there used to be this famous book called The Coming Collapse of China

5225

by somebody called Gordon Chang, who wrote it in 2002.

5228

And it's hilarious because he's still writing about the coming collapse of China.

5231

And it's 2023. And the joke is that one day China will collapse

5235

and then Gordon Chang will come out of his grave and say, you know, I was right just ahead of the curve.

5239

And you've got a lot of people like that who are telling you what's going to happen in five years.

5243

But I don't see why I need to be one of those. Yeah, it's just not the way I think.

5248

Yeah, it's like they say about some economists that he predicted 10 of the last three recessions.

5255

I love the personal tone of a lot of your work.

5258

And I want to kind of dive back to that earlier thing that you were saying about your mom,

5262

that there was a public self and then she came home and there was a private

5266

and these were two separate worlds.

5268

And I recently came across a formulation of the public, the private and the secret,

5272

where the private is what you'll tell your intimates, the secret is what only you know.

5276

And there was some kind of survey. I vaguely remember. I'll try and find the link for the show notes if I can figure it out.

5281

But where people in the survey, people were asked how many things they have,

5285

which they tell absolutely no one in the secret domain.

5287

And I think the average number of things was four, which was quite interesting.

5292

And I feel that at some level it is like forget the secret.

5296

But at some level, it's important to have some kind of line between the public and the private for your own sanity.

5302

But at the same time, as a creator and as a consumer of what other people put out,

5307

what I really value is authenticity, people being themselves, because you straight away have that trust.

5312

And that authenticity, if you're being true to yourself, also means a lack of certainty and a lack of all the things we just discussed.

5318

So a doubt is public.

5319

And the doubt is public and you're just being yourself and then you really relate to that person.

5323

And then you don't so much care about right or wrong because right or wrong is, you know,

5327

things are not being, facts are not being expressed in absolutist terms anyway.

5331

Everything is kind of impressionistic, but you get a deeper picture of the world through somebody's eyes.

5336

And I want to ask about how easy or difficult was it for you to arrive at that kind of personal tone

5345

where you can put yourself out there?

5347

Because I imagine growing up that there must also have been some pressure on you and dual pressures

5353

that you're, of course, a celebrity's daughter.

5356

So on the one hand, you don't want to put yourself too much out there,

5360

but on the other hand, you also perhaps have an image to maintain and, you know, certain things you can do and can't do.

5367

And from making that sort of a journey where you're almost, you know, in fishbowl, Delhi, as it were,

5373

to come out of that and find that comfort with your own voice and even find your own voice to begin with,

5379

what was that journey like?

5382

So confession, I'm not sure I've ever told anybody like this, but I think I find myself quite fascinating.

5388

I think I did from a young age.

5390

Like I was quite, I used to sort of pretend, I used to write a diary.

5394

And in those days, the diary was very personal because I used to write it and nobody would ever read the diary.

5399

But I had this fantasy that one day somebody would discover this diary and would read it and would be really absorbed in my life

5405

and be like, oh my God, there's this incredible person with all of these incredible thoughts.

5409

In some ways, social media allows you to do that.

5412

It ends up being this public diary where you can actually put your thoughts out there.

5415

So it's funny how that's happening.

5417

But that's more a performative diary than a confessional diary.

5420

Both, both, because I did from a very young age have a kind of, I mean, it was not that I was, I was not,

5426

I was performing myself, but I was performing myself pretty authentically.

5430

So it was not that I was changing what I was writing because I thought somebody might read it.

5435

In fact, I knew nobody would read it. Nobody has ever read the diary, by the way.

5438

But, but it was just something at the back of my mind.

5440

I think perhaps it is, it was a love of narrative.

5443

It was a way of turning my own life into a story about giving a little bit of drama to it.

5448

You know, maybe it's this idea of when I was describing my grandmother.

5452

I'm not even sure if anyone's told me this whole story about somebody pulling her onto the train and somebody pulling her on the other side.

5459

But that's an image that's very much stuck in my head.

5462

That's the story I've told myself about my grandmother.

5465

And I think I used to tell myself stories about myself.

5468

Nobody else found me particularly interesting.

5470

I was a plain looking, very thin, very dark child in Punjabi.

5475

You know, fair, plumpy, healthy skinned Delhi.

5479

You know, a little bit of a nerd with this sort of weird family background.

5483

And so, yeah, it was not like I was like somebody that everybody out there would find interesting.

5487

So I found myself interesting.

5489

And I would tell stories about myself and which again, I think that they were real.

5494

This was not fantasy.

5495

It's just that I had a tendency towards memoir, perhaps, if you want to write it, like sort of to think about my story from a very young age.

5506

So it came to me quite easily, this form of writing, which was a mixture of analysis and autobiography and anecdote.

5514

Being a foreign correspondent, even when I was writing for the newspapers, I often used to try to position myself because I found it more authentic.

5521

Like I told you, otherwise, journalists tend to blur themselves out of the picture and it gives you this false sense of objectivity.

5527

And I was very clear right from the beginning that there was no such objective truth.

5531

I told you about the traffic in Beijing.

5533

So right from the word go, I knew that what I was looking at, I was looking at because of who I was.

5538

So it was quite important for me to kind of also make that transparent for the reader.

5543

And I actually thought that this is, you know, an interesting way to write.

5548

It helped me to analyze myself.

5550

Yeah. So it's always been like that.

5554

Does the process of finding yourself interesting lead you to make yourself interesting in the sense, does the writing shape the person?

5561

Yes. I mean, the way you tell a story makes it more, I mean, you know, who is a raconteur?

5565

Somebody who can take a story and make it interesting.

5568

You tell the story in a way that adds a little bit of masala.

5572

And I think, you know, that's what storytellers do.

5575

And I think ultimately journalists, writers, we are all storytellers.

5578

And the most fundamental story is the story of yourself.

5583

It's your earliest story. It's the story that's with you at all times.

5587

What was the story of yourself that you told yourself at 17?

5590

At 17.

5591

Or pick any age, pick any young age, if you remember, 15, 14, 18.

5597

Probably reasonably Banal.

5599

I wanted somebody like Vikram Seth or Amitav Ghosh to happen upon my secret diary and discover this genius who was languishing in Nizamuddin East.

5612

Something like that.

5613

I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to be a storyteller.

5616

And I wanted somebody to recognize my talents.

5618

So possibly a story like that.

5621

And what kind of books were you reading? You said gangs introduce you to, you know, gang or gangs. I'm sorry.

5626

Gang. Yeah. Short for ganguly.

5628

I mean, I know gangulys who are called gangs also, but gang in this case. Thanks for correcting me.

5633

So what kind of books did he introduce you to? What kind of books?

5636

He read out The Lord of the Rings to me when I was about eight years old.

5640

So I think that whole questing sort of idea of going on an epic quest was quite important.

5647

And also the idea of different types of people coming together to fight the good fight became quite important to me because of The Lord of the Rings.

5656

So, you know, you had the elves and you had the men and you had the eagles and you had the hobbits.

5660

So you had the whatever and these dwarves and they had their differences.

5664

But when like there was a common evil that came about, you put aside those differences and you came together.

5670

That was a very powerful idea for me.

5672

And now, of course, I'm reading, I also read out The Lord of the Rings to both my children, which was quite an epic undertaking.

5678

How long did it take you, I'm imagining?

5680

Oh my God, it went on forever.

5681

And I also realized one, how male that world is and B, how much they walk.

5686

I mean, what they keep doing in The Lord of the Rings for pages and pages.

5688

There's sometimes like 60 pages where they're just walking and talking about, you know, the gloaming and the sort of crepuscular outline of the mountains or whatever.

5697

Yeah, I was really quite dull.

5698

I don't know how I found it so exciting when it was read out to me the first time.

5701

But that was something important that stayed with me, this idea of putting aside your differences when push comes to shove for a greater good.

5709

And that was quite influential.

5711

What was your sense of self in that time?

5713

Like, what did you see yourself becoming?

5714

What was that story about, I am going to be this when I'm in my 20s, I'm going to go here, I'm going to do that?

5720

I only wanted to do two things.

5721

One, at the very beginning, I wanted to be a vet.

5725

I wanted to, I think, essentially play with animals.

5728

And I thought that the best way of doing that would be to be a vet, which is what I thought they did.

5733

When I discovered that there was blood and gore and, you know, intestines and all of that involved,

5738

I changed my mind and I might have been about 11 years old at that time.

5742

And I decided I wanted to be a broadcast journalist.

5745

I wanted to, yes, that's what they used to call them, broadcast journalists.

5749

There was also the time when News Track was around.

5752

I thought this was going to be exciting.

5754

In some ways, it was a great blend of my father and mother going back to that because my father was a journalist as a reporter and my mother was a television presenter.

5763

So there was the TV element and then there was the journalistic element.

5766

And when I finished university, my very first job was with NDTV.

5770

It was in 1999.

5771

I had my dream job.

5772

And I think within six months of doing it, I realized that I hated broadcast journalism and what I thought I had always wanted to do and how I imagined myself.

5780

I was an on-camera television person straight off the bat at the age of 21 or 22.

5784

And I disliked it deeply.

5786

So then I was in the state of, as the ancient Greeks called it, aporia.

5790

I was a little bit lost.

5791

I didn't know what to do.

5792

And then other things happened, which we can talk about later.

5795

But yeah, that's how I had pretty binary.

5798

I was the vet, the animal person.

5800

And then I was a broadcast journalist.

5802

I would be on television, but I would be a reporter.

5805

I had a slight sense of disdain for presenting like my mother did because I used to feel that she just reads out the news.

5811

You know, I wanted to kind of be the person who was getting the news as it were.

5817

These days, if you want to play with animals, news television is perhaps a place to go.

5821

No, I did that.

5822

I did that when my first few stories with NDTV involved a lot of my playing with animals.

5826

And I remember doing a lot of zoo stories and going and playing with tiger cubs.

5831

Yeah.

5832

So let's take a quick commercial break and we'll continue your journey on the other side of the break.

5840

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The course costs rupees 10,000 plus GST or about a hundred and fifty dollars.

5874

If you're interested, head on over to register at indiaankar.com slash clear writing.

5878

That's indiaankar.com slash clear writing.

5881

Being a good writer doesn't require God given talent, just a willingness to work hard and a clear idea of what you need to do to refine your skills.

5890

I can help you.

5896

Welcome back to The Scene in the Unseen.

5897

I'm chatting with Pallavi here about life and times and so on.

5901

And we've got to the part where, you know, you're at, you know, you're in news television and you leave.

5906

Why did you leave? Dig a little deeper into that for me.

5910

Yeah, I think I realized that I didn't enjoy the medium.

5914

Also, this was like 1999 and I think it was a very underdeveloped medium.

5921

So we were not professionally trained and we were kind of put into situations that were very important situations

5928

without any sort of background information.

5931

And I found that very uncomfortable that I would often have to be interviewing politicians or doing very important stories as a 21 year old, as a 22 year old.

5941

And my only credentials were really that I had gone to the right college and therefore I'd been sort of taken into this network.

5948

And this was, you know, when we didn't really have Google and things like that.

5952

We never had time to actually delve into the background of what we were reporting on.

5958

I was sent to interview writers who had won awards without having read their books.

5963

I really hated being put in that position.

5966

It was very much like there's a fire, grab a mic, go and cover it.

5970

And, you know, it was also a very adrenaline based kind of reporting and that didn't suit me very well.

5977

You know, I think some people feed off of that.

5980

And then the medium in the sense of, you know, you had to write two pictures.

5984

The pictures actually told the story.

5987

And I realized actually quite like words.

5989

And like I told you, even when I was very young, I used to think a lot about how I would describe things.

5993

And this is not a very descriptive medium because the pictures are what are doing all the descriptions.

5998

And also in terms of the length of a story, I mean, look at these podcasts you are doing for five hours.

6002

The average news story used to be one hour and 30 seconds.

6005

What am I saying? One minute and 30 seconds.

6008

And so we would have to put about three sound bites in there.

6011

And so each sound bite would have to be six to eight seconds long.

6015

I mean, it was really quite insane. And I just didn't enjoy that.

6017

I didn't really see the point in it.

6019

So, yeah, I think those were the reasons why I realized that despite the fact that I had always imagined

6026

myself as being a broadcast journalist and wanting to do this when I was actually doing it,

6031

it wasn't what I thought it would be.

6034

I want to ask you a question about form.

6036

I once wrote an essay on how the fact that I am doing these long podcasts has such a deep influence on both.

6043

Like one, the form impacts the content, because obviously if you're going to talk for five hours,

6048

you learn to listen much better. You learn to listen to understand and not listen to respond.

6053

Your research also has to have that kind of depth and so on and so forth.

6057

But also as much as shaping the content, the content then shapes a character

6061

because you become that kind of person who listens more and is more open and all of that.

6065

And similarly, looking at the range of work that you've done, you've traveled across different forms

6072

where early on you speak about writing a diary, for example, which is free form.

6075

And I presume that back in those days, pre-computer days, you're writing by hand,

6079

which, you know, takes a certain amount of time, which requires a certain commitment and effort

6083

to actually sit down and scribble those words.

6086

Pen on paper is slightly, it's a physical task. There's a difference.

6090

Then there is, of course, television, which is surely the shallowest form that you must have worked in,

6096

which, you know, like you said, one and a half minute stories, six seconds soundbites.

6100

Then there is a reportage that you would have done. Perhaps in the early days, the reports would have been shorter.

6105

Maybe as you went up the ladder or you were doing interesting foreign stories,

6109

you would have had more space, maybe features, etc., etc.

6113

Then there's a form of the travelogue, which carries with it also the personal tone and the allowance

6119

for, you know, you to be in the story and to be fleshed out that way.

6125

You've also written those two sort of novels.

6127

Now you're writing the newsletter, which I absolutely love.

6129

And again, I'd recommend all the listeners to check out.

6132

And these are like lovely personal essays that also have a different sense of pace and a certain kind of terror after them.

6140

So what is your sense of working through all these forms?

6144

And which are the ones that you felt most comfortable in or that were sort of your home ground?

6151

Like I'm guessing the travelogue is a collection of, you know, like a personal memoir kind of thing is one

6156

because you've done that so well across the different countries.

6159

You know, Smoke and Mirrors orienting, your great parenting book, your recent book, Punjabi Parmesan.

6166

So what is, what's your sense on what kind of form works best for you and that you're most comfortable in?

6174

And do you think that this is something that creators of all types, writers, etc., etc.

6180

should think about a little bit more because the form that they choose to work in will ultimately shape them and change who they are?

6188

Yeah, I think you end up finding the right form for yourself.

6191

I mean, the adrenaline junkies will be drawn towards television reporting, you know.

6196

So it's a kind of symbiotic process.

6198

Like you said, you find the form, the form finds you.

6201

And I think for me, it is an amalgamation of reportage and of memoir.

6211

The sort of sweet intersection between that and perhaps deep reading.

6215

I like to read about a culture, a country, the literature, poetry around that particular place, then have real interactions with people.

6224

And reportage allows you to do that because it gives you an excuse to go and visit an iron foundry

6231

and find out, I don't know, what Lakshmi Kant Mittal is up to in Belgium, for example,

6236

or what the Gujarati diameters are doing in Antwerp or what Punjabi farmhands might be doing in Latina and in Italy.

6246

It gives you an excuse to do that.

6248

But then there's also, as you are reporting, there's also that sense of your own story as the reporter,

6253

because there's a sense of journey as you go to these places, you meet a variety of people.

6259

It's not just the interview with the person, but there's the whole story that is surrounding.

6264

You're getting there.

6265

You're becoming interested in that particular topic and the various characters that you meet that are sort of incidental to the main story.

6274

And so I think writing these kinds of books that I have about Punjabi parmesan, about Europe, for example,

6280

orienting about Japan, smoke and mirrors about China, allowed me to bring all those threads together,

6286

use the reportage that I had done for newspapers over a period of however many years it might have been,

6292

and sort of also interlace that with the deep reading that I did around the country and around the topics that I was interested in,

6299

and then bring the story of me and my family into it as well.

6302

And that really is the sweet spot.

6304

I mean, I think it's really, it's in some ways, that's how, you know, we were talking about authenticity.

6309

I feel the most authentic when I'm writing in that mode.

6313

And, you know, when we are younger, we often think about our lives in terms of things we want to achieve.

6318

And I think part of aging just means that you begin to think of it more in terms of journey than destination,

6325

that these are the, you know, Annie Dillard said, how we spend our days is how we spend our lives.

6329

And we, you know, at least in my case, I begin to think more about how do I want to spend my days,

6334

because that's really all there is and not in terms of any specific achievement.

6339

And how has that journey been like you in terms of all the writing that you have done?

6345

Like I imagine at one point when you start writing Smoke and Mirrors, it's your first book,

6349

and, you know, it won an award also, and you really want it to be well received, which it was.

6354

And it is at that moment a destination.

6356

But at some point in the process of writing it, I'm guessing in your later books especially,

6362

there is just this beautiful ease, there is this herav.

6365

It feels, everything feels effortless.

6367

So did that, I mean, every writer knows it's never effortless, but it feels effortless as a reader.

6374

And is that a journey you made as well, from, you know, really enjoying the process so much

6380

that it doesn't actually matter what happens to the book,

6382

because by now you and I know that writers don't make money and it's okay.

6386

I think that's absolutely true, that I have reached a point where I have no expectations from my book.

6391

And I don't even try to make too much of an effort,

6393

because I feel that whatever you're going to achieve is not going to be commensurate to the effort that it requires.

6398

So if I go all out trying to promote it or trying to come up with, you know, fancy ways of getting the word out there,

6404

I don't really think it's going to make that much difference to how much it's going to sell.

6408

The effort it will take to sort of find agents around the world and try and sell it in the U.

6413

I have, I've had foreign rights sold in the U.S., in Japan, so on and so forth.

6418

You know, it's a huge amount of effort.

6420

If it happens easily, it will happen easily.

6422

But I have lost the fire to try to make that happen,

6425

because I don't have any fantasies about myself really being this huge and famous writer anymore.

6431

I want to write because I enjoy writing.

6433

I sometimes feel I have something to say.

6435

And some people who read the stuff enjoy it, and it finds its way into the right hands.

6440

And I remember actually having a conversation with Amitabh Ghosh about this at some literature festival.

6445

And he was pushing me and saying, you know, you should meet this agent, and you should meet that agent,

6449

and you should do this, and you need to do that, and you need to get this out.

6452

And then I was telling him, but you know, it's a lot of effort.

6455

I also have to look after my kids.

6456

I also have to do my day job.

6458

I have all of these other things to do.

6460

And then he sort of said, true, not everybody has to want the sun and the moon.

6465

I remember he put it like that.

6466

And that's, I actually feel that I don't want the sun and the moon anymore when it comes to my writing.

6470

I just want to be able to write.

6472

I'm very happy with my newsletter.

6474

And I'm, you know, I think it's a very comfortable place to be.

6477

I don't want to force it down anybody's throat.

6480

I think it's good writing, and you know, some people really enjoy it.

6484

Babies and bylines.

6485

People still write to me telling me that it's transformed their lives.

6488

That's wonderful.

6489

There are young people who read books like Chinese Whiskers, Jakarta Tales,

6493

and you know, end up becoming interested in other parts of the world.

6496

And you know, there was one child in Belgium who even made a board game for a school project based on Chinese Whiskers.

6502

It was lovely.

6503

But these are sort of isolated stories.

6505

This is not like one becomes a huge writer.

6507

My children keep making fun of me and, you know, they're telling me whether,

6511

I mean, they ask me, you know, whether I will ever be like J.K. Rawlings, for example.

6516

And no one's ever heard of me.

6518

They tell their friends that, you know, my mother's a writer.

6520

But then the friends are like, well, why aren't your mother's books in the library like Harry Potter or whatever?

6525

So it's kind of funny, but it truly, at this point of time, does not matter.

6529

I do not want the sun and the moon, as Amitav Ghosh put it.

6533

I'm very happy writing what I write.

6535

And I feel like I found a kind of sweet spot between ambition.

6539

I still have that ambition to write.

6542

But in some ways, it's almost, yeah, it's a bit like the Bhagavad Gita, you know, do your duty.

6546

Don't think about the fruit.

6549

Yeah.

6550

And I'm also sort of struck by the part dependence of random events.

6555

Like you speak about how you met your future husband, Julio, when you were at LAC, I think, together.

6561

And then you got together and then he was crazily into China.

6564

And he went there and he's like, come to China, come to China, et cetera, et cetera.

6567

And then you went to China.

6569

And had you not met him, had, you know, had your paths not crossed in that particular way that completely may not have happened.

6576

And I want to know what are the possible, like, who were you at that point in time, the instant before you met this person?

6583

And this part dependence kind of happened.

6586

And you travel the world and you've written so beautifully about so many different countries that you've been in.

6591

But what are the other possible parts?

6593

What was your sense of what are you doing and what you want to do?

6595

I don't know.

6596

I was very confused because of the fact that after having worked in television, which is what I was very oriented towards doing,

6603

I discovered it was not what I thought it would be.

6607

And I wasn't sure what else I do, because this had been something that for many, many years had been with me as my sort of primary ambition.

6614

And so I did what a lot of people in that position do and that sort of, you know, go off and study more,

6619

which sort of maybe buys you some time to think about it.

6622

And I thought perhaps idly that I might end up in academia.

6627

You know, academia is a refuge for many people like me.

6630

It's like enjoyable. You study, you do research.

6633

It allows you to sort of think more deeply about things you're interested in.

6636

Certainly, I think that if Hulu had not happened to me as it were, my life would have been very different.

6643

But I also think that if I had not been who I am, my life would have been very different,

6647

because I mean, Julio could have happened to anybody.

6649

But it was also the fact that I allowed him to happen to me and sort of followed various directions.

6655

And going forward, you know, I've been very open to being able to be in remarkably different circumstances and, you know, give it a shot.

6663

You know, why not move to China? Why not move to Indonesia? Why not move to Japan?

6667

I feel that a lot of people are very close to that because it takes them out of their comfort zone.

6672

And there is a tendency amongst people to constantly, wherever, when they're in a new situation,

6677

to not appreciate that new situation for what it is and rather sort of criticize it for what it is not.

6683

There's a very sort of expat type of attitude.

6686

You know, I found this with expats around the world.

6688

You could be English and you could be in Japan.

6691

And instead of being fascinated by, I don't know, haiku or whatever, taiko, Japanese drumming,

6696

you'll be saying that you don't get the right kind of chocolate or something that you do back home.

6701

I mean, we all end up with these very idealized notions of what it's like back home.

6706

And in fact, I think every single place in this world is a very fantastic, wonderful,

6711

very interesting and absorbing experience if you can just focus on what it is rather than what it isn't.

6717

And that's what I've tried to do.

6719

And you've also spoken eloquently about the difference between tourism and travel.

6726

And you know how tourism can often be about ticking boxes.

6729

At one point you've written, quote, My own first experience with how joyless

6733

ticking of items on your travel bucket list can be was decades ago in the mid 1990s.

6737

My first visit to Rome had entailed spending an entire morning in the sweltering July heat

6742

queuing up at the Vatican City, all for a total of five minutes inside the Sistine Chapel.

6747

Groups of us packed into the intimacy of a can of sardines were pushed into the hall

6751

where the crowding made it a feat to physically be able to crane one's neck up towards the creation of Adam

6756

before being pushed out again.

6757

To have enjoyed the experience, one would have to be a mathagist.

6760

And that is sort of one extreme illustration of being a tourist.

6764

And it's almost sort of cliched, I guess, to kind of bring up that difference.

6769

But I'm just wondering that in a sense of travel, and I'm thinking aloud here,

6773

so forgive me if the question is either naive or too vague, but I'm wondering how does one travel?

6779

Because at one level you have to be able to see in the way that you mentioned

6784

that you see in the first six months in any new place where you're noticing everything.

6788

But at another level, you don't want to be hypersensitive to everything

6792

and find significance in every little rock on a street corner, because that is also...

6796

And like those words we were talking about, the exoticization of Japanese or whatever.

6801

So I guess the ultimate form of traveling is perhaps just living in a place

6806

and just soaking it in without overthinking it.

6808

Yeah, you can travel in your hometown, you know.

6811

I think travel is not really about physical movement necessarily.

6816

Traveling is really a sort of attitude. It's about learning.

6820

And so that is metaphorical movement rather than physical movement.

6824

So it's about reaching from point A to point B, but it can be traveling inwards.

6828

You know, journeys, all lives are about journeys.

6831

And whether it's a personal journey, you journey within a marriage,

6835

you journey when you become a parent, you journey when you fall in love,

6840

you journey when you become a student. These are all basically travelogues.

6845

Our lives are made up of these mini travelogues.

6848

You don't have to go to Japan and you don't have to go to China like I have in order to travel.

6852

And so I think what's important about travel is the discovery and it's the kind of attitude.

6857

And so you can go to the Sistine Chapel and if you're just ticking off boxes and taking pictures,

6862

that is not ultimately travel.

6865

But you can be having this conversation like the way we are.

6868

And I think we are traveling quite deeply into, you know, we're delving into a variety of different things.

6873

So there's travel involved in this conversation. So that's how I see it.

6877

You know, before this, during lunch, we were chatting about how often you live in a city,

6881

but my sense is that you actually live in a micro-neighborhood where you're just seeing an aspect of it.

6889

Like I think about how I relate to Bombay. Sure, I've been here since 1995,

6893

but a lot of the time I've been in a room, you know, one third of the time I've been asleep.

6898

A lot of the rest of the time I've just been in a room somewhere.

6900

When I've traveled out, I've traveled out almost in a cocoon.

6903

If I'm in a car, I may not see what's happening outside the car and the traffic signal besides me.

6909

And all of that is unseen. And what is seen is very limited.

6912

And what you say about how one can travel within one's own city is so true

6917

because Bombay itself is so incredibly complex and full of multitudes, as it were,

6921

that I just feel that if I had to travel, why would I even need to go anywhere else?

6925

I want to ask you, tell me about your travels to Delhi in that case,

6929

that through all these years, through these decades, how have you rediscovered it?

6933

And I guess every rediscovery of what is your first home, in a sense,

6938

would be a rediscovery of yourself also in a way, isn't it?

6941

At the moment, I feel like I went to North Korea when I go to Delhi.

6945

And I sort of travel from the airport, my neighborhood,

6949

and I see, you know, Prime Minister's visage on all the sort of the bus, all the hoardings.

6956

They follow you everywhere. And there's the sense of there's a dear leader, you know, out there.

6960

And we are in a cult of some kind.

6962

How else have I felt about Delhi? I don't know. I feel quite romantic about Delhi.

6966

I grew up thinking of it as somewhere that was, you know, very historic.

6971

I grew up in a neighborhood called Nizamuddin, which is by an old Mughal tomb,

6976

Humayun's tomb, which is today a UNESCO World Heritage Center.

6980

But at the time, it was, you know, a sort of unkempt derelict tomb, which was very wild.

6985

You had peacocks dancing around there, parakeets.

6987

I had free access to it and would walk my dog on the tombs.

6990

I learned how to roller skate on the tombs.

6993

I would, you know, take books and sit in alcoves and read them.

6997

The problem with this romanticism was Delhi men,

7000

because often while I would be sitting there in these alcoves reading them,

7003

I would find people masturbating next to me.

7006

And that would sort of take away a little bit from the romanticism of Delhi.

7009

But generally, because we had these almost stray monuments of great beauty and historical importance,

7016

I felt that this was a city with a soul, that it was a city of Khans, a city of poets,

7023

a city where you could really, you know, spin stories. And I loved it.

7029

Having left and then returned after seeing many other parts of the world, it's been quite disillusioning.

7037

I've sort of seen, I think more than anything else, I feel this kind of huge lack of,

7042

I was talking to you about it earlier, but oral sanctuary.

7045

You know, it's become so crowded that it's almost impossible to hear yourself in any way.

7052

The complete lack of public spaces, I think, is another thing that grates.

7056

There were many things that I used to take for normal when I lived in Delhi,

7060

that after having left, I've realized are very abnormal.

7063

That makes you see the city in a different way.

7066

The amount of harassment that you face as a woman.

7069

You know, I, when I was in college in Delhi, just it was very normal to get on a bus to be groped.

7074

You know, you'd sort of elbow people.

7077

I remember I sit standing outside the NDTV office one day trying to get an auto

7081

and a car just came and stood by.

7083

They rolled down the window and they asked me how much I would cost.

7086

All these kinds of things would happen and they were so insignificant

7089

that it would not be worthy of sort of telling anybody.

7092

You wouldn't even tell a friend.

7094

But I think when you sort of leave and you realize how much freedom you can find in public spaces

7099

in a place like China, in a place like Japan, I find it really quite remarkable

7104

how many Indian people, posh people, when I tell them that I lived in Japan,

7108

would say, oh, isn't the situation for women terrible there?

7111

You know, because they've heard about patriarchy in Japan or whatever.

7114

I'm like, well, you know, a woman can go for a walk in Japan,

7117

which is very difficult for a woman to do in Delhi today.

7120

So, yeah, I mean, coming back, it's I sort of see it in a more sort of it's sort of demented reality

7126

and it's abnormality.

7127

The fact that everything that I used to take is somehow just being normal.

7131

It doesn't have to be like that.

7133

It's a very difficult, overcrowded, aggressive place.

7136

And I feel like it's lacking a soul in many ways because nobody is from Delhi.

7140

I mean, you can't tell anybody that you're from Delhi.

7142

They say, but where are you really from?

7144

Everybody from Delhi, you know, went off to Pakistan.

7146

So it was kind of empty.

7148

It's suffering from post-partition stress syndrome or whatever.

7151

I think it was Rana Dasgupta who put it like that.

7154

And so it's a strange kind of place.

7157

And I sort of have ended up comparing it to a bad boyfriend.

7160

You know, it's like I love it and I kind of feel romantic towards it,

7163

but it doesn't always treat me very well.

7166

There are a bunch of things that, you know, sometimes you have to leave to see them properly.

7170

They're so normalized.

7171

They're so part of the everyday fabric.

7173

And some of them would be things like the cacophonous soundscapes of Delhi, for example,

7177

just how noisy it is or any Indian city or the extreme harassment and how bad it is for women

7183

or what really is happening in the country today.

7187

And my question is about that.

7189

Is it that over the course of the last 40 years, India has changed in fundamental ways?

7194

Or is it that we were in a bubble and that bubble has burst and that we were, in a sense,

7198

we were like this all along and politics has now caught up with society?

7204

I think possibly a little bit more of the latter.

7208

I do feel that the kinds of people that I went to school with,

7213

I think they do feel a sense that they were not seen at a certain point in time

7218

and that today that they are recognized and that they can speak in a way

7221

that they would probably always have wanted to speak, but felt constrained.

7225

And so in some ways, that's a very deep problem because it's very easy to say that,

7229

you know, I don't think it's just about our prime minister or politics.

7233

If it was about that, we would have another set of elections and it would all be over.

7236

But I think as a society, we are learning things about ourselves and who we are.

7241

And maybe it's not what we were taught when we were in school.

7245

You know, we were taught a very particular version of what India was.

7249

I held on to that. I guess the preamble of the constitution, you know,

7253

the secular, the sovereign socialist, all of those things.

7257

I'm not sure how much that really spoke to most of the people who are governed by this constitution.

7262

And I think that as a nation building project, we have failed to kind of create the nation

7268

in that image of what our constitution and the preamble stated.

7272

And so therefore, should that really be our constitution and our preamble?

7277

I don't know. I think there is a mismatch.

7279

There's a fundamental mismatch between social values

7282

and between a kind of constitution that came from a very different set of values.

7287

And we've not been able to lessen the gap between that.

7290

I mean, so if that was the nation building project, I think it's failed.

7294

Yeah, it's almost become a cliche on my show because I keep saying how we had

7298

a relatively liberal constitution, not as liberal as we'd like,

7301

but a relatively liberal constitution imposed upon an illiberal society.

7305

Yes, I totally agree with that.

7307

And you had to change it from the bottom up, and we failed,

7310

and the top down doesn't work ever, you know.

7314

Yes, I very much agree with that.

7317

Let's talk about another sort of society that is run from the top down,

7323

contains within it deep contradictions in which you know very well, which is China.

7328

And at one point you wrote about the quote,

7332

This cordon blend of authoritarian politics and liberal economics

7336

that required the leadership of a tightrope act

7339

that could not be expected to last forever.

7342

And you wrote this when you had gone to China in the early 2000s.

7345

This is in Smoke and Mirrors, which was released in 2008.

7349

And you also speak of things like this great act called Measures

7354

for Internment and Deportation of Urban Vagrants and Beggars,

7357

which is, you know, beautifully sort of...

7361

Communists speak.

7362

Beautifully communists speak and bureaucrats speak and all of that,

7365

and it sounds familiar to us here in India.

7367

And at the same time, when you look at these different contradictions,

7370

you also speak about your bewilderment that young people were gung-ho,

7374

that young people did not see it as a problem,

7376

that, you know, that there was one person who said that,

7379

Listen, my father used to go to work on a bicycle.

7381

Today we have two cars. What is the problem?

7383

And they are sort of gung-ho about that.

7386

And those are the sort of different directions there,

7389

that you have an economy which at that time was prospering madly,

7394

but at the same time you don't have political freedom, you know.

7398

And that sense that things are going really well

7400

and things will go really well until they don't.

7402

By chance something happens, you piss off the wrong guy,

7404

then you're immediately slammed off.

7406

But it seems to me that that is true of India also, right?

7409

And there are so many examples of that sort.

7412

So tell me a little bit about, you know,

7415

how your view of China sort of evolved through these years

7419

because I was having a, like there's a YouTube show I do called

7423

Everything is Everything with my friend Ajay Shah

7425

and I brought up to him something that a friend of mine said

7427

when we were discussing who has had the most positive impact

7431

on humanity over the last 40 years.

7433

China.

7434

And this other person, which individual?

7436

And this other person said it's Deng

7438

because Deng lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty,

7440

which instinctively I could not argue with.

7442

It is of course correct.

7443

And Ajay's point is that no, he doesn't agree

7446

because Deng set China upon a path that was bound to fail

7450

and that was bound to land up at where it has

7452

with all the things that she is doing.

7454

Has it failed?

7455

I don't agree with that because I think...

7456

Has China failed? I mean it's not...

7458

Anyway, go on.

7459

Yeah, no.

7460

Like for him it's failed in the context of freedom,

7463

of giving freedom to its citizens.

7464

But as far as I'm concerned,

7465

hundreds of millions of people came out of poverty.

7467

Indians would gladly have settled for that.

7469

Yes.

7470

It did not happen.

7471

And therefore I regard Deng incredibly highly.

7474

But I also sort of get the point of view

7477

that there is a fundamental flaw in the structure that remains

7482

and I have no idea how it would end.

7484

They would resolve it, yeah.

7485

Yeah, so tell me a little bit about...

7487

Yeah, I think I was blown away by how, you know,

7491

how unoppressed Chinese people felt.

7494

Because I think before I went to China,

7496

I very much had the impression

7497

that there would be all these dissidents.

7499

People would be scared to talk.

7501

In fact, I found people had a great sense of humor.

7503

There was a lot of laughter.

7505

There was a lot of optimism.

7506

Again, we're talking about the Hu Jintao Wanjia Bao Day.

7509

So we're talking pre-Xi Jinping, pre-2014.

7513

I think in the first decade of this millennium,

7515

it was a very opening up trajectory generally in China.

7518

It was opening up in many ways.

7520

You had the state essentially getting out of the way of many things.

7524

You had the state getting out of people's bedrooms.

7526

There was a time when, you know, the state would decide

7528

who you could marry and who you couldn't marry.

7530

There was a time when the state decided what kind of job you could do.

7533

Now you had the freedom to choose your own job.

7535

There was a time when the state decided who could travel and who couldn't travel.

7538

Now you had the freedom to have your passport

7540

and to be able to travel around the place.

7542

So it was basically a liberalizing time

7545

when there was more and more freedoms that were accruing to people,

7548

and they still had memories of when they did not have that freedom, right?

7552

So I think when you still had that memory,

7555

whatever freedoms you were getting was something that was very precious.

7558

The most of all, you now had the freedom to get rich.

7562

So there was this, you know, they used to sum it up as shut up and get rich.

7566

So don't talk too much, but make money.

7568

And you know, it turned out that that's what a lot of people wanted to do.

7571

They wanted the freedom to be able to make money, to have nice lives.

7575

And I said in my book, you said I met somebody who said that now I have two cars.

7579

I used to have a bicycle.

7580

It was not one person, it was everybody.

7582

It was like everybody that you would meet in China would tell you the same story,

7585

which was my parents had a bicycle, I have a car.

7588

Because that was the trajectory that, you know, that they were taking.

7591

There was upward mobility.

7593

There were more freedoms than there had ever been before.

7596

And frankly, most people around the world are not like political creatures

7599

in the sense that they want to criticize the government.

7601

There was enough bitching and carping.

7603

So people would complain about corruption.

7605

They would complain about, you know, the local community dude

7609

who was, you know, being rapacious or grabbing land.

7612

It was not as though that they could not complain about these things.

7615

But they actually had a sense, and I think that that was funny

7618

and counterintuitive compared to India,

7620

that they had a sense where they could actually appeal to the government to make it right.

7624

They had a belief in government capacity, which I think we just did not have in India.

7629

In India, when things go wrong, the last person you think about turning to is the government.

7633

You know, if somebody robs your stuff, you're not going to go to the police.

7636

You think you'll get raped.

7637

I mean, there, there was still some kind of belief in the apparatus of the state,

7642

whether it was the police or whether it was appealing directly to the authorities.

7646

And there was a sense that things were not perfect,

7650

but they were not perfect because this was a complicated country with a lot of people.

7655

There was a lot of stress on the size of the country

7658

and the fact that when you have a population like this,

7661

you can't compare it to other smaller countries.

7663

They would often bring that up in comparison to India as well,

7666

which was also a very populous country.

7667

And they would say, look at your country.

7669

You have the freedom of basically being on the footpath.

7672

Is this what you want?

7673

I mean, they would bring that up and they would call it chaos.

7675

So since Confucian times, I think one of the things that people really fear is chaos.

7680

The whole idea of Confucianism is how to avoid chaos and how to impose order.

7684

The righteous ruler is somebody who's avoiding chaos.

7687

And China has had episodes in its history where it's had these millenarian movements

7692

and it's had these revolutions.

7693

And of course, you had Chairman Mao.

7694

I mean, you had the Cultural Revolution.

7696

There was great chaos at that time.

7698

So the time that I was there in China, there was this huge tendency

7702

and I think desire and as far as I could tell,

7705

consensus on wanting to avoid that kind of situation,

7709

that kind of chaos that they had just come out of,

7711

and instead to focus on things that would sort of better your life in material terms.

7716

And that is essentially what was going on.

7719

And so I was very surprised by all of that

7721

because it was a very different sense to what I had before I went there,

7725

that these would be people who were unhappy, who were oppressed,

7728

and who would not be able to express their opinions.

7731

I found people were pretty free in how they expressed their opinion

7734

and very human and humane.

7737

So I want to ask a question about culture and the effect authority can have on it.

7742

Culture is something that I think of and you'd agree is something

7746

that is essentially a bottom-up thing in spontaneous order.

7749

You can't direct it in any way.

7751

And at the same time...

7753

But it's quite deep and it has roots.

7755

And I think that culture matters in a way that sometimes,

7758

I think modern people often think that it's kind of constructed

7762

or we give it too much importance

7764

or that we are somehow primordially fixing people

7767

into these kind of cultural categories.

7770

But in fact, I think that there is something to be said for very deep structures of culture

7774

and how they shape, how we respond to events.

7777

And so the second part of my question is about

7780

how a certain kind of authoritarian planning

7783

of what appears to be non-cultural can shape culture.

7786

For example, architecture.

7788

Like you have this great passage in your first book where you write,

7791

quote,

7792

The blade-runner-like futuristic cityscape that I saw on display

7795

at the Urban Planning Museum remained incomplete during my China life.

7798

The Beijing I lived in was more a work in progress

7801

with a continually half-complete feel.

7803

Its architectural mishmash of styles lent it an urtonal jarring look.

7807

Concrete warehouses peeled in the shadow of zooming skyscrapers,

7811

a few unyielding courtyard homes crushed up against bathroom tiled office spaces.

7815

Bar house, baroque and bathroom all jostled together uneasily.

7819

And the only unity the city has was the ubiquity of bulldozers and cranes

7823

skewering the haze of construction site dust.

7826

That and the omnipresent Chinese character pronounced chai and meaning demolish.

7831

Elsewhere you write about how, unlike India,

7834

the interiors of Beijing's buildings may have been plush,

7838

but so were the exteriors. They were sanitized and sterile.

7841

Which is sort of interesting.

7843

And you talk about the effect on the people where at one point you write,

7846

Beijing was a surrealist paradise.

7848

Old bent men in Mao suits taking their cage songbirds for a walk along an expressway.

7853

A group of elderly women practicing Tai Chi surrounded by bulldozers.

7856

These were common sights as I entered the city.

7859

The clash of the past and present was certainly highlighted by Dilchak's repositions.

7863

But what struck me most was the fluidity with which the Beijingers, I observed,

7867

negotiated this tension, the lack of visible trauma or resistance.

7871

And the reason this speaks to me and the question I'm coming at is that

7875

I've been increasingly thinking about how deep is culture really and how do we define it.

7881

For example, in a recent episode with Krishyashok in Narendra Chinnoy,

7884

Ashok spoke about the origin of Upma in South India.

7888

In 1941, because of the war, I think Japan came to Burma or whatever,

7892

there was a shortage of rice.

7894

And South India mainly had rice, which is also why their women were more liberated

7898

because they weren't making rotis all day.

7900

And there was a diktat given by the government of the day that have more wheat

7905

because we have less rice.

7907

And South India was like, our women are working, our girls are going to school.

7910

No, we don't want to make rotis.

7912

And the compromise was a kind of wheat that can be cooked like rice.

7915

In other words, semolina, and that's where Upma comes from.

7917

And so today we think of Upma as like a deep part of a certain kind of culture.

7922

We think it must have existed hundreds of years,

7924

but it was contingent, came about at a particular point in time.

7928

And similarly, as you look through cuisine, as you look through culture,

7932

so much of what we think is fundamental to what we are all about

7936

is actually relatively recent.

7938

Like salmon sushi did not exist since the 80s.

7940

Norway had excess salmon.

7942

They managed to get, there's this fascinating story,

7945

I'll link from the show notes about how a Norwegian salesman called

7949

Bjorn Erik Olsen, I think, went to Japan and he met all the fisheries people

7954

and he tried to sell off excess salmon

7956

and finally managed to sell off 50,000 tons of salmon at a cheap price.

7961

And everybody was like, hey, nobody will have salmon sushi.

7964

But not only did Japan adopt salmon sushi.

7966

It's become iconic.

7967

It's become iconic. It took sushi to the world.

7969

And what that tells you is that we think of culture quite correctly in my view

7973

as something that is bottom up, that is rooted in something deep, like you said.

7977

But it can also evolve.

7978

It can also be deeply contingent and things can change.

7981

Like within a generation, things can change entirely.

7984

And when you speak of, you know, bewildered Beijing residents

7987

adapting to the changing cityscape around them

7990

and not actually reacting against it and, you know, this...

7994

So I want to know how you think about culture

7997

because you've kind of seen this, seen modernity shaping tradition

8002

and shaping culture in a tradition quote unquote

8005

because a lot of what we think of as tradition is relatively recent.

8008

And you've seen this across countries.

8010

What is sort of your, what are your thoughts on this?

8014

Yeah, I mean, obviously when you're looking at things like cuisine,

8018

you sort of brought up the upma example.

8020

I mean, look at Indian cuisine.

8022

I was at what is formally known as the Prince of Wales Museum yesterday

8026

and I was just looking.

8027

They've got a nice exhibition on Indian food.

8030

And, you know, whether it was potatoes or whether it was chilies

8033

or whether it was tomatoes, all these very fundamental things

8036

that are related to Indian cuisine were all introduced by the Portuguese

8039

and they came from South America.

8041

The great Columbian exchange.

8042

Exactly.

8043

And then, you know, tempura was introduced to Japan by the Portuguese.

8047

I mean, chai really was, you know, the British took it from China

8051

and brought it over here.

8052

I mean, so you have all of these intermingling.

8054

But culture is not only food, right?

8057

And I think different societies, I think they invest their sense

8062

of cultural identity in different things.

8065

So I think, for example, in some parts of Europe,

8069

there is a great investing of cultural identity in architecture.

8073

And I think that in China, that was not the case.

8077

I think where China got its sort of sense of self, its longevity,

8081

its sense of being a continuous culture,

8083

was very embedded in the writing in Chinese characters,

8087

which are very unique and which have essentially, you know,

8090

with some changes, been around for 5000 years.

8094

They also invested it very deeply in their sense of, in their cuisine,

8098

but not in terms of the ingredients of the cuisine,

8101

but in a very deep philosophy of yin and yang

8103

and how you balance hot food and cold food.

8105

This was something that went on for a very long period of time.

8108

But I think historically, they've been quite comfortable

8110

with architecture changing,

8112

which was something that Europeans had a difficulty understanding.

8115

You know, because they're very comfortable with faux antiquity

8118

of sort of, you know, if the temple doesn't look great,

8121

let's build it down and rebuild it to look like it used to look,

8125

and it'll be just as well.

8126

Whereas, you know, the Europeans, they feel that

8128

it's somehow lacking authenticity if it has been rebuilt.

8131

I don't think that the Chinese really felt that

8134

about their physical architecture.

8136

But on the other hand, you know,

8139

there was also, I mean, you know,

8141

policy planners have used architecture in China as well

8144

to deliberately erase certain kinds of memories

8147

and rebuild and reassert what they want that particular city,

8151

for example, to mean.

8153

So Beijing, when I lived there,

8155

I would say really had like three parts to it.

8157

It had the old imperial heart, which was the Hutongs,

8161

which used to be these criss-crossing alleyways

8164

in about a two-kilometer radius of the Forbidden City.

8167

These used to be the sort of areas where the grandees would live,

8171

the very rich merchants and the noblemen in pre-1949 China.

8175

They would have these huge courtyard houses.

8178

They would be the equivalent of the Havelis of Old Delhi, for example.

8181

Then you have the Communist Revolution in 1949,

8184

and what the state does is it expropriates all of this land,

8187

and it turns them over to workers' units,

8190

to things that are called Danwei,

8192

and they basically became like urban slums.

8194

So what would have once been a grand courtyard would now belong to a workers' unit,

8198

and it would house maybe 80 families, people lying in bunks.

8203

There were also no toilets in any of these.

8206

So what did they do? They built public toilets,

8208

which became very important because these public toilets

8211

were what brought the community together.

8213

And also, I think, because they became so overcrowded

8216

that you could not have interior lives,

8218

and lives began to be lived on the street.

8221

So during the communist times, you had a lot of collective life

8224

that was happening on the streets.

8226

People would sit outside, they would chat,

8228

they would do calisthenics together in the evenings,

8231

and they would congregate around the public toilets and sort of chit-chat.

8234

Then you have this new Beijing that is being built.

8236

It was, in fact, called New Olympics New Beijing.

8239

I can't remember the exact catchphrase,

8241

but you had the 2008 Beijing Olympics,

8243

and under that umbrella, there was a push to kind of change

8246

all the architecture all over again.

8248

There was a time when the Beijing municipal authorities

8251

were publishing new maps of the city every three months

8255

because it was changing so much.

8257

So as far as I was concerned, there was huge instability

8260

because I couldn't orient myself.

8262

You would find a favorite restaurant,

8263

and you would come back there two months later,

8265

and it just wouldn't be there.

8267

But I think for a lot of people who were living there,

8269

they just continued on.

8270

That's what I write about in my book.

8272

So this would be a park, and then suddenly it was bulldozed,

8275

but people would still take their dogs for walks over there

8278

as though it was still a park.

8279

It was very interesting.

8281

So anyway, you had this new Beijing,

8282

and what they were doing with the new Beijing

8284

was demolishing both the communist architecture,

8287

the hutongs, and then putting up these glass and chrome structures.

8290

And again, it was going to have a lot of impact

8293

because suddenly, you know, you would have elderly people

8296

who would be in high rises, who could no longer come down,

8299

who could no longer meet their friends.

8300

It was taking away these social focal points

8303

that existed because of the public toilets.

8305

So there was a huge social and cultural impact

8308

that architecture was having, and it was also an erasure

8311

because the communist buildings that you had

8313

were essentially being completely taken away and being replaced.

8317

So it's almost like toying with people's memories, you know,

8320

because it is that space that you remember certain things

8323

very deeply connected with neighborhoods.

8325

We all have that.

8326

When I go back to the neighborhood that I grew up in,

8329

you know, there's certain nostalgia memories that attach to that.

8332

When that's taken away, it's very easy.

8334

It makes it easier, I think, to just kind of look forward.

8337

And that was very much the trajectory.

8339

Let's look forward. Let's not talk about the past.

8341

And I came across that very much.

8343

So, you know, the other thing about when I would talk to people

8346

and they would say my parents had a bicycle, we have the two cars, yes,

8350

but they would never talk about the Cultural Revolution.

8352

Why? Because the parents wouldn't talk to the children about it.

8354

There was this kind of unspoken consensus in society

8358

that move forward, move forward, let's just keep going.

8361

Why dwell on the past?

8362

I think we've seen it in India with partition as well.

8364

We'll often see that families don't actually talk about it to their children.

8368

And then there's a kind of erasure of memory that's happening within families

8372

and that was reinforced by the architecture as well,

8374

by the whole entire cityscape changing

8376

so that the memories that are attached to the city are erased.

8381

And what you said also resonates with what I was saying earlier about forms.

8385

And I was talking about forms in the creative economy,

8388

longer pieces, shorter pieces, all of that.

8390

But even forms of living within a city can shape a culture.

8393

Like what you said about communal living is so sort of reminiscent

8396

of why so much slum redevelopment fails in India.

8399

Because you're living in a chawl and all the homes are sort of cheek by jowl as it were

8404

and they have common kitchens and the women are congregated

8407

and the kids are playing together and going in and out of each other's homes.

8410

And it's a community and the old people could just be sitting there in the courtyard all day

8414

with life all around them.

8416

And then you put them in apartment blocks and everything is torn apart

8419

and destroyed and you're completely atomised.

8421

And I think it particularly affects the elderly.

8424

There was a visibility of old age in Beijing in these hutongs

8428

which I thought was wonderful and you didn't see that very much in India.

8431

Old people were very integrated into the fabric of everyday life

8435

and I think it had a lot to do with how the hutongs had developed.

8438

And not just the old people, it would also affect the young people

8441

perhaps not in such a poignant way but it would shape the direction of how they go.

8446

I also want to, I now want to shift attention to Japan

8450

where you wrote about like a similar sort of subject

8453

where you wrote about Japanese culture and about how incredibly safe it is

8457

that kids who are seven years old are going to school alone, they're trained to do that.

8461

For women obviously it is like so much safer than Indians can imagine.

8465

And at one point you write, quote,

8467

Perhaps the most crucial ingredient in the recipe that allowed Japanese children such independence

8471

was an accepted reliance on community,

8474

more reminiscent of a village than of big city culture.

8477

While researching a story on the subject I came across an article in the Atlantic magazine

8481

that quoted Dwayne Dixon, a cultural anthropologist, as saying,

8484

now his quote,

8485

Japanese kids learn early on that ideally any member of the community can be called on

8489

to serve or help others, stop quote.

8491

And then you write,

8492

Over the years I came to the conclusion that trust bred trust,

8495

good deeds encourage good deeds.

8497

If someone had taken the trouble to turn in your valuables to the police,

8500

you were more likely to do the same for someone else, stop quote.

8503

And here it seems to me that what happens is that a certain cultural norm,

8506

however it forms, creates a virtuous cycle.

8509

That's right.

8510

That because there is this trust, because people are helping each other,

8513

if somebody, if you know people will be around to help you,

8516

you are automatically going to help them when called upon.

8519

If you know that your wallet will be returned to the police station,

8523

as indeed happened with you,

8524

then you know that when you find a wallet you are also going to return it.

8527

I think you had a statistic of, I think in Tokyo or Japan, I don't know where,

8530

but 313,000 lost umbrellas were found in a year,

8534

were handed into the police stations, you know,

8537

which is incredible because I have lost many umbrellas,

8540

none has ever come back to me, which is incredible.

8543

And what I'm thinking here is that just as you have a virtuous cycle,

8547

you can also have vicious cycles where this trust breeds this trust.

8551

And I think that something like this has happened in India,

8554

that there is a particular trait that people think of as cultural,

8558

but I think might have institutional origins,

8560

which is essentially what Jagdish Bhagwati referred to as our rent-seeking mentality

8565

when contrasting us with China of 2000 saying they had a profit-seeking mentality.

8569

And I think that, quote-unquote, rent-seeking mentality,

8572

that urge to take advantage of someone, to exploit someone, etc., etc.,

8576

possibly comes because of our post-independence institutional arrangements,

8581

where you had a strong parasitical predatory state,

8584

which is essentially rent-seeking.

8586

And if you want to get ahead in life, it's really hard to make an honest living.

8589

And you have a sense of it being a dog-eat-dog world, no?

8592

Yeah.

8593

The pie is not big enough.

8594

Yeah.

8595

I think there's the sense that it's just not big enough to share,

8598

so you need to get ahead. It's a dog-eat-dog world.

8600

But you're absolutely right.

8601

And I think that all sort of behavioral economists have also noticed this,

8605

that if you go to a very clean place and you litter, as you see litter,

8609

you'll notice it and you will not litter.

8611

If it's clean, you won't litter.

8613

If it's very dirty, you'll also start littering.

8615

So I think it's sort of similar to that in Japan,

8617

because it's created this virtuous cycle where every single Japanese person

8622

has had experiences where they have lost things and it has been returned.

8626

You are far more likely to do that.

8628

In India, I walk past and I see things lying on the road,

8631

and I just walk past them.

8633

In Japan, if you walk past something on the road, you would pick it up

8636

and you would just put it on the side for somebody who would later come back,

8639

you know, looking for it, and they would find it.

8642

So I think you kind of mimic the behavior that you see around yourself,

8646

and that's a very human thing.

8648

And Indians themselves behave very well when they go abroad,

8651

because that's what they're seeing around them.

8653

When they come back, they'll behave in a completely different way,

8656

because we mimic the environment.

8660

How do cultural norms change?

8661

Have you seen examples of, say, a vicious circle turned into a virtuous cycle

8665

all the other way around?

8668

Yeah, I mean, I think you've seen it quite clearly in China,

8672

but there was a lot of social engineering involved.

8675

And some of it was, you know, quite funny to the non-Chinese ear,

8680

because they have this concept of a wanhua, which is civilization,

8685

and what is civilized behavior and what is not civilized behavior.

8689

And they would even have signs up at airports which would call them civilized airports.

8694

And in English, they would translate them as civilized airports,

8697

so it led to much hilarity.

8699

And again, I think the Olympic Games were this kind of umbrella

8702

under which a lot of this social engineering was going on.

8705

So not only the building of the new city of Beijing physically,

8708

but it was also supposed to create a new character of people.

8712

And that included a whole list of uncivilized behaviors,

8715

and the uncivilized behaviors included spitting, pushing in queues, keeping pigeons.

8721

I think they were very anti-keeping sort of pigeons as pets

8724

because they would go pooing all around the place, and so on.

8728

Oh, kudangu.

8730

There used to be this thing where people who came in from the countryside

8734

would put their children in trousers that had a split on the butt.

8740

And they would just, when they needed to go to the loo,

8744

they could just essentially sit down.

8745

They wouldn't have to take their trousers off.

8747

This was very common, 2002, 2003.

8749

And there was this ban on kudangu and how this is not civilized,

8752

and you need to use the toilet.

8753

Then they built the luxurious lavatories.

8755

So there was a lot of training on how to use the luxurious lavatories,

8758

like the don't squat on top, how to flush.

8761

And there was a lot of this teaching that they would put up notices in the hutongs.

8765

It was in the newspapers.

8767

And there were even civic classes that were organized in a sort of community-based.

8771

This was a communist society.

8772

So they used that machinery to improve the Wanhua level,

8775

the civilizational levels of people.

8777

They were uplifting it.

8778

And there was also a lot of foreigners are going to be coming in 2008

8782

from all over the world.

8783

What do you want them to see?

8784

But, you know, eventually it sort of worked over the years.

8787

I mean, today, if you go to Beijing, it is a very different place to 2002.

8792

Partly, I just think it's a richer place.

8794

So people have got more education.

8796

They have more money.

8797

They're more house proud.

8799

The architecture has changed.

8801

All these poor, spitting people now face some amount of social censure,

8805

which perhaps they wouldn't have because younger people have been taught

8808

a different set of norms.

8810

It used to be very common for Beijing people to kind of roll up their vests

8815

and then have these protruding potbellies and also roll up their trousers

8819

up to over their ankles.

8820

And it was hot.

8821

And you'd see like hordes of these people wandering around airports.

8824

Today, you won't see people dressed like that.

8826

So it's a kind of sort of moving away also from a village,

8829

you know, like culture to a more urban culture

8833

where people have essentially, I think, just gone up, you know,

8837

the material value chain with help by social engineering,

8841

which has actually changed some of these norms.

8843

None of these norms were nobody, no country was born with them.

8847

I mean, there was spitting in every country.

8849

Japan had terrible sanitation.

8851

All of these things at some point came about as a result of improved,

8855

you know, government capacity and educational campaigns.

8860

And I guess it would be hard to disentangle what is coming from these top-down efforts

8864

and what is coming organically from A, increased prosperity and B, globalization.

8870

It's a combination.

8871

I mean, what used to really make Indians and Chinese seem the same to me,

8874

this Hindi-Chinese bhai-bhai, at least in 2002, 2003,

8878

that when you were in an airplane full of Indians or Chinese,

8880

and the moment the plane touched down,

8882

everybody would jump out of their seats while the air hostesses were saying,

8885

sit down, sit down.

8886

And for foreigners, like for foreign correspondents in China,

8889

they would see this as something peculiarly Chinese,

8892

that all the Chinese people somehow, you know, are so uncivilized or whatever,

8896

that they jump out and they don't listen to the air hostesses.

8898

So common to an Indian.

8900

So we shared all of this, you know.

8901

It was a lack of familiarity with global norms.

8906

And now they have that.

8908

And so it's changing.

8909

So every time a plane lands, the Hindi-Chinese bhai-bhai get up quickly.

8913

So let's sort of go back to your personal journey.

8917

And I want to talk about parenthood and, of course, your, you know,

8920

Babies and Bylines, your great book on that.

8922

And so I'm going to quote a couple of passages and then get to my question.

8925

At one point you write about how you were never interested in babies,

8928

and you write, quote,

8929

Babies had never interested me.

8930

I'd never been struck by a longing to coo at a bundled up newborn.

8934

I found toddlers having tantrums in airplanes intolerable.

8937

I was not a natural nurse.

8938

I found rule unpleasant.

8940

I disliked mess.

8941

I once got sight of a friend tasting pureed baby food with a finger

8945

before feeding it to her seven-month-old.

8947

It made me nauseous.

8949

That same friend just messaged you.

8951

Just messaged, you see.

8952

Well, it's good that she's still your friend and you haven't held it against her.

8955

And then you write, quote,

8957

Mine was a wanted pregnancy.

8959

I was 32 years old and had been in a relationship with Julio for almost eight years.

8963

It was time I decided.

8965

In retrospect, however,

8966

I realized I hadn't decided as much as responded to my mother's queries

8970

to what common sense conquered was normal,

8972

to some kind of mysterious biological tick-tocking.

8975

It was also a submission to adulthood,

8977

to my commitment to Julio, to Darwin, stop, quote.

8980

And my question here is about, you know, thick and thin desires.

8983

That's a frame that Luke Burgess came up with in his book, Wanting.

8987

And he was referring to the notion of mimetic desire,

8991

which René Girard wrote about,

8993

where René Girard was this philosopher whose theory was

8996

that most people want something because somebody else wants it.

8999

And therefore you come at thin and thick desires.

9001

And thick desire would be something that is deeply intrinsic to you,

9005

like your desire to write and tell stories, as you just mentioned it.

9008

And a thin version of that would be the desire for validation

9011

and to win an award, which you've done.

9014

And one of the classic thin desires that I think of

9017

is indeed the desire for young people to start a family

9020

and have kids because they see everybody around them doing it

9023

and they assume it's just a natural thing to do

9025

and they fall into that groove.

9027

And so I want to kind of ask about that,

9030

because in that last para I read out,

9032

it feels like it was a bit of thin desire.

9034

It was a groove that felt natural to get into it.

9037

But then later, the more I read,

9039

it feels that you really began to enjoy it

9041

and you immersed yourself in it.

9043

So tell me a little bit about that journey.

9045

I mean, being the parent of a very young baby is not enjoyable.

9049

I mean, by any normal definition of the word of enjoyable.

9054

No, it was very much a thin desire.

9056

I think it was more about worrying that I might regret it

9059

rather than something that I actively wanted.

9062

I didn't know how I would feel about it.

9065

My mother would tell me that it was something that was very important to her

9070

and that she could not imagine her life without me.

9073

And that was something that would sort of stick to me.

9076

I suppose I could imagine her life without a child

9078

because you wouldn't know what it was like.

9080

But what if it brought this incredible positive aspect to your life

9084

that you just wouldn't know otherwise?

9086

I also decided to adopt two cats.

9089

Julio and I did that as a kind of pilot project.

9092

You know, we lived in China at the time,

9094

and the Chinese were famous for their pilot projects.

9096

Before they did any economic policy or whatever,

9098

they would first try it out.

9099

So we thought, okay, we'll do it in a small scale

9101

and we'll get these two cats.

9103

And I mean, it's not the same as a baby,

9105

but it means you have to look after them,

9107

you have to take them to the vet,

9109

and you can't be as spontaneous,

9111

somebody has to land up home for the night and be out partying,

9115

somebody has to feed the cat and so on.

9117

And I realized about two years into being cat parents

9120

that I was having these very abnormal fantasies

9122

of, you know, hosting a cat birthday party.

9125

And I sort of was telling Julio,

9127

oh, the cats are going to be two,

9128

and wouldn't it be sweet if we could have a little salmon cake

9131

and have their little cat friends over?

9133

So at that point, I was thinking, oh, my God, I need to have a baby.

9136

There's something that's telling me I need to have a baby.

9138

But it was never a very, very strong desire.

9141

It was more a fear of what if I didn't have a baby

9146

and then somehow regretted it in the future.

9149

And I decided that I would just not overthink it

9153

and it would be a bit like jumping off a cliff

9156

and then the deed is done, so let's just do it.

9159

And I hated being a mother for the first, I don't know,

9163

four or five months, probably, when Ishan was born.

9166

He was a nightmare child.

9168

He didn't sleep all night.

9170

He screamed all the time.

9172

I just couldn't believe what I had done.

9174

And there was this finality to it that was so frightening

9177

because everything else in your life you can fix, you can reverse.

9181

And there I was with this baby who had just turned my life upside down

9186

and there was nothing I could do.

9187

It's not like I could take him back to the hospital

9189

and say, you know, here, you take him back, please.

9192

And I remember thinking I've just made the biggest mistake of my life.

9196

Like, what have I done?

9198

Yeah, and I think perhaps many, many, many women feel that,

9201

but I just hadn't been exposed to that version of motherhood.

9204

Nobody had spoken to me about it, including my own mother.

9207

Perhaps she hadn't experienced it.

9209

Not everybody goes through that.

9211

Ishan, also we have discovered with time that, you know,

9214

he has Asperger's, he had sensory issues and so on,

9218

which made him very difficult when he was a baby,

9220

but we didn't know that.

9221

But as a new parent, it was a huge shock to the system.

9225

It seemed extremely abnormal.

9227

And I remember thinking that, you know,

9229

everyone said that having a child was the most normal thing you could do.

9232

It was the biological norm.

9234

But psychologically, it felt extremely abnormal.

9238

I did an episode with Mrinal Pandey and Mrinalji spoke about

9241

this gathering of mothers when she was a young mother

9245

and they all discuss this news piece that one of them came across,

9248

which was about a mother murdering her babies.

9251

And at first they all expressed horror,

9254

but then one by one they all confessed.

9256

They all confessed that we also had fantasies.

9258

Oh my God, I could have thrown him out.

9260

But I had a very fierce sense of protectiveness.

9263

And, you know, in some ways I tortured myself with it

9265

because he was such a horrible child

9267

that I thought I couldn't let anybody else be with him

9270

because I thought they would murder him.

9272

And I was the only person who could tolerate this.

9275

That's a very cool thing to say about you.

9277

He'll listen to this, right, at some point?

9279

At some point.

9280

Just because he cried a lot.

9282

I mean, he was only two months old at the time.

9284

But imagine this kind of high decibel screeching, you know,

9287

and nothing would sort of really soothe him.

9290

He was just very, very difficult.

9292

And I just thought if I leave him with a nanny

9294

and, you know, he just keeps screaming and doesn't get soothed,

9296

she might hurt him in some way.

9298

So I thought I was the only one who was kind of capable of taking that punishment.

9302

And I sort of punished myself with being with him constantly.

9305

My first break was when I went to see Pankaj Mishra.

9308

And I was about three months into it.

9311

We'll talk about that later.

9313

But I want to talk about the aspect of it,

9316

about how unequal parenting can be.

9318

Where at one point you write, quote,

9320

I didn't admit it to myself at the time,

9322

but while I'd obviously known that Julio could not breastfeed,

9325

what I really wanted was for him to feel as tired and discouraged

9329

and overwhelmed by it all as I did.

9332

There is patently a biological asymmetry in infant rearing,

9334

but that didn't prevent me from desiring an emotional and mental equality,

9338

the lack of which seemed far more egregious.

9341

And I recently was chatting with Mahima Vashish,

9344

who writes a newsletter, Womaning in India,

9346

and we were at a conference and she was like,

9348

you know, everybody else at this conference is networking, meeting people.

9351

For me, I'm just happy to have a break from motherhood

9353

because, you know, she had an infant kid.

9355

And she also said, like, her husband is an old friend of mine,

9358

delightful guy, as feminist as you can expect a man to be.

9362

Salil puts in all the work at home to help.

9364

But even then, it can never be equal.

9366

Even then, it's a mother who's kind of has to sort of bear the brunt of it.

9371

And how does this change everything in your life?

9374

Because are you, like, is the pre-motherhood Pallavi dead at that point?

9379

And are you just a different person?

9381

Different person.

9382

I had a different person, different relationship with my husband,

9386

different awareness of biology,

9389

different sense of what feminism is, different sense of equality.

9392

I mean, it changed a lot of things for me.

9395

I mean, you know, it's also a phase.

9397

These things don't last forever now that my children are older

9400

and I sort of look back on that.

9402

It was all a bit apocalyptic at the time and it no longer is.

9405

I think, and in some ways, I think maybe it was unfair of me

9409

and maybe it's unfair of all women who feel the same way that I do,

9413

which was basically for their husbands or their partners to be as miserable as they were.

9418

And, you know, that maybe it is a bit unfair.

9420

I don't know.

9421

I just felt that my husband had a certain amount of ability to compartmentalize.

9427

And I think for a lot of women, that becomes very difficult.

9430

So there was almost no baby-free mental space.

9433

And no matter what I was doing, whether I was at a lit fest,

9436

whether I was writing, there was always one part of my brain

9439

that was thinking about, you know, whether Nico had done pupu that day

9443

or whether somebody had eaten the banana that they were supposed to eat or not.

9446

Did I do that to myself? Was that because of my biology?

9449

I'm still yet to figure out how much it is constructed and how much is necessary,

9455

whether it is something that, you know, that is social,

9459

whether it is something that is biological,

9461

whether it's something we do to self-sabotage.

9464

And, you know, why is it that it doesn't seem to affect men

9467

and even men who are very good fathers and hands-on?

9470

It is the mental space that is different.

9472

So physically, they can sort of take on 50% of the tasks, you know,

9476

not that my husband did, but I think it's possible for a man

9480

to take on 50% of the diapering, the feeding, the bathing, like all of that.

9484

But how can you kind of dictate how a person is supposed to feel about it

9488

or, you know, how their mental space is supposed to be occupied or not?

9492

I just think around the world, most men are still able to read a newspaper.

9496

They're still able to listen to a song when they have an infant.

9499

And I think that's very rare for a woman to be able to do.

9502

I was just, I couldn't believe that he could read a paper.

9505

I just lost that ability for a very long period of time,

9508

to be able to just do something with concentration and focus.

9514

Not only that, he actually geeked out.

9516

I love these passages on him. It's a bit long, but I'll read this out

9518

because it's such good writing and I really love it

9520

and makes me like Holiw a lot as well, where you write, quote,

9524

I didn't have a wife, but I did have a husband, a much loved one.

9527

All I wanted of this husband, or so I told him often,

9530

was more of his involvement in the everyday details.

9532

And so I learned the truth behind another Holi cliche.

9535

Oh God, when he started telling me about how to breastfeed.

9538

Be careful what you wish for, it may come true.

9540

Six years on, it is easy for me to insert myself in Holiw's shoes.

9544

He had taken a month off from work to find himself essentially superfluous

9547

in a home filled with baby screaming and his wild-haired wife's accusations

9551

about the unfairness of everything.

9554

And a little later, you write, eventually he turned to the one activity

9557

that gave him a simultaneous sense of control and involvement.

9560

Research, and as all baby-related roads lead to the mother's breast,

9565

Holiw soon fancied himself an expert on my breast and what I should be doing with them.

9569

He would stay up nights reading the blogs of assorted lactation consultants

9573

and scribbling neat notes for me to peruse.

9575

He sent out orders on Amazon for fennel seed supplements,

9578

a known herbal lactation aid.

9580

He suggested I try getting a prescription for Domperidone,

9583

a medication often used to ease symptoms of nausea and vomiting,

9587

but also shown to increase milk production in some women.

9590

But when Holiw recommended that I set the alarm clock

9593

so as to wake every two hours through the night

9595

in order to attach my chest to a pump for a 20-minute milking session,

9599

therefore stimulating my supply, I'd heard just about enough.

9603

And I read out the full thing because I just love the writing and the storytelling,

9607

and this is kind of exactly, I have to admit, with some guilt.

9611

This is exactly what my instinct would be,

9613

that men would have this instinct from problem-solving research,

9616

this matter, let's solve it.

9618

Actually, I just wanted emotional support.

9620

I think what I wanted was for him to be a bit miserable rather than solve the problem.

9623

There was no solving the problem, really.

9625

I mean, I was going through it and I think it was,

9628

there's a sort of disconnect sometimes in terms of the coding and the decoding between parents.

9635

Tell me your Pankaj Mishra story, it's awesome.

9637

The Pankaj Mishra story.

9639

Yeah, so I was going through all this with Ishan,

9642

who had essentially stopped sleeping.

9645

I think it's very hard for many parents to believe me when I tell them this,

9649

but it's true, he didn't sleep for more than half an hour at a stretch.

9652

And even those half an hour stretches used to involve

9655

an incredible amount of calisthenic activity on our end.

9659

We had to do deep knee bends and things like that to get him to relax.

9662

And I was also going through this huge struggle with my milk supply

9665

and I really wanted him to be breastfed and I was having a lot of issues with that

9671

and I was like pumping milk and it wasn't working and he seemed to be very hungry.

9675

And so anyway, the whole thing was a mess and my entire mind was suffused with all of these issues

9681

and various things were happening around the world.

9683

I think Obama had got elected.

9685

I think the terrorist attack in Bombay in 2008 had happened.

9690

I think Lehman Brothers had collapsed.

9692

I mean there were these huge world events and I was a journalist.

9695

Because of Mukul Chadha, Lehman Brothers collapsed because of Mukul Chadha.

9697

Basically, it was all Chadha's fault.

9699

And there I was very peripherally aware of all of this,

9702

but then I got a call from a writer friend in Beijing, Lijia Zhang,

9707

and she said, you know, there's this Indian writer who's coming,

9710

his name is Pankaj Mishra and I'm having a dinner party for him

9714

and why don't you also come and meet him?

9716

I had read Pankaj's book Butter Chicken in Ludhiana in the 1990s

9721

and Love Date and I'd read his book on the Buddha also

9724

and so I was quite a big fan, you know, fan girl.

9726

And I just thought, oh my God, that would be so incredible

9729

if I could actually leave this baby behind and go and meet Pankaj.

9732

But how do I do this?

9733

Because how do I leave the baby?

9735

Like I told you, I was very worried that people would harm my baby.

9738

It was so difficult.

9739

So I told Julio and Julio was very supportive and said,

9742

don't worry, between me and the nanny, we're going to manage

9745

and you can go out for the evening.

9747

And sort of we'd gone into overdrive in terms of how we were going to manage this.

9751

And I had an hour and a half.

9753

I arrived at the party and Pankaj Mishra turned out to be lovely.

9757

He was very generous.

9759

He talked to me about my work as a journalist.

9762

And then he suggested that we meet for tea, you know, two days later somewhere.

9766

And I sort of said yes, because the idea of meeting Pankaj Mishra alone

9769

seemed kind of incredible.

9770

But inside I was thinking, how the hell am I going to be able to leave the baby

9773

and go off for tea?

9774

Anyway, I went back, I talked to Julio about it, and we came up with this plan.

9778

So for the next two days, I was like pumping milk and I'd filled up these two bottles.

9782

And you know, there was really, it was not easy to get to this point.

9787

But we were able to, with the best efforts of three adults, the nanny, Julio and me,

9791

let me go and meet Pankaj Mishra for a cup of tea two days later.

9795

And we sat down in the park and were drinking, you know, sharing some jasmine tea

9799

and chatting.

9800

And at some point I told him about my baby.

9802

And then he said, oh, how old is your baby?

9804

And I said, oh, three months old.

9805

And he said, oh, I also have a three month old.

9807

And I just stared at him and stared at him because he'd been in China for the last month

9811

wandering around, you know, fanning about, reporting, being at all these parties,

9816

having tea with me.

9817

And I just remember thinking, my God, how is my life so different from his life

9821

at this point of time when we both have these three year olds?

9825

So yeah, anyway, I asked him about that and he said that he had a support system.

9830

And so, of course, it just meant that he had a wife.

9833

And you didn't have a wife.

9835

No, I had a husband, a good one.

9840

So here's a question.

9841

I was, you know, very struck by what you mentioned about your kids' relationship with music.

9847

Like at one point you, like, humble bragged about Ishan, to a friend of yours,

9851

that he's only able to sleep after humming the entire overture of The Marriage of Figaro.

9855

And earlier you like, you wrote about, you know, the kids' response to Bob Marley,

9859

Dire Straits, Bach, Flamenco, so on and so forth.

9863

And I'm just wondering in these natural and spontaneous reactions of both need and anger

9869

and love that babies show, that, you know, when I think of babies and when I think of cats,

9874

do we get a glimpse of true nature at work there?

9878

It's only instincts expressing themselves, unadulterated by nurture or by culture

9883

or the things that we are taught.

9884

And that is when all the differences happen.

9886

But if you look at cats and dogs in a good way and cats in a bad way,

9890

because I think they're all murderous, malicious sociopaths.

9894

Taking over the world, yeah.

9896

I mean, enslaving humanity.

9898

You've written two lovely books about them, but yeah, quite apart from that.

9904

That, you know, that a lot of the project of adulting is often covering up this basic instinct

9913

that we, instincts that we express as children.

9916

And that a lot of it is therefore pretense, a lot of it is fake,

9919

a lot of it can fall apart if picked in the right places.

9922

I think the basic instinct we all have is that need for connectivity, that need for touch,

9927

the need for, you know, just someone kissing and making it better.

9932

I think that's the only way to put it.

9933

We have a very deep need, all of us, for somebody who will just make it better for us.

9938

And that's the, you know, and that makes it very hard when you lose a parent, I think,

9942

because, you know, suddenly, even if that has not been reality for many, many years,

9948

it's somewhere in the back of your mind that there is somebody out there

9951

who can do that when the shit hits the fan.

9953

And when that's taken away, it is very difficult.

9958

Sorry.

9960

Let's, I'll come back to that later.

9963

Let's also talk about your process as a writer.

9969

Like when men talk of process as writers, they often do so from a, you know,

9973

position of privilege where somebody will say, oh, I get up at five in the morning

9976

and I write for seven hours straight and et cetera, et cetera.

9978

And they have the ability to carve out their masters of their time.

9981

They have the ability to carve out those chunks of time.

9984

I've been dying to go on one of these writers' retreats, you know,

9986

where I can go to Lake Como and spend three months writing a book.

9989

But, yeah, that's not happening.

9991

Yeah.

9992

And you mentioned, like, at one point you wrote about how you wrote

9995

Spoken Mirrors during the evenings and on weekends.

9997

Yes.

9998

And you finished writing it in six months flat.

10000

It's between the pauses of the demands of your children, really.

10004

It's like, you know, in the sort of commas of life, it's in the gaps that you get.

10013

It's very hard for me to be able to close a door.

10016

And that's sometimes what you want, you know.

10018

Virginia was a room of your own.

10020

It's very hard to have that room of your own when you have young kids.

10023

So it's in the snatches and the pauses and the gaps and the semicolons

10027

and the whatever you want to call it.

10029

And you learn to be very productive and you learn to do it when you have the moment.

10033

And so, yeah, you don't have these three months, you know, pressures

10036

where you can just go and think and process.

10038

At least I haven't had that privilege.

10041

In that experiment, you never had the kids.

10043

You were master of your own time.

10045

Maybe you won a lottery somewhere and had like 10 million dollars.

10048

Would I write differently?

10049

You would have the freedom to change your process in any way.

10053

You wouldn't have to write in the gaps in the commas.

10055

Would you write differently? Would you write different things?

10058

It's possible.

10059

I mean, as you've noticed, I've written a lot about my children.

10061

I've written about, you know, I've written about the cats.

10064

And I think very much I've had the children in my mind

10066

when I've sort of been writing these stories spun around the cats.

10069

It's possible that I would have been, you know, more of a pandit.

10072

I might be one of those people who's telling you about the coming collapse of China.

10076

I don't know.

10077

I mean, I think it was Alice Walker who said that, you know, you can have one child,

10080

but if you have two children, then you're a dead, dead duck.

10083

And it's true. Two kids really, really make it complicated.

10086

On the other hand, I also think that being a mother means that,

10089

or being a parent probably means that you become super productive

10092

and that, you know, there's very little procrastination that has gone on in my life.

10096

And I've never had writer's block, for example.

10098

I just think writer's block is a privilege.

10100

You write when you can write because you're not going to have another moment

10103

to be able to write that.

10104

So it's also possible that if you have endless stretches of time

10107

and you don't have these kinds of deadlines that are set,

10110

that you would just, you know, fritter that away.

10113

So it's a difficult counterfactual.

10115

Tell me about frittering time away.

10117

Let's talk about cancer.

10119

In September 2022, which was recently, you were diagnosed with stage two breast cancer.

10125

You know, tell me a little bit about that.

10127

Like, what was it like finding out about it?

10130

What were your...

10131

Long and complicated process.

10132

And I wasn't diagnosed with stage two cancer.

10135

I was diagnosed with stage zero cancer.

10137

And I realized that this is something that's quite common

10140

in that you get misdiagnosed with stage zero cancer.

10143

So anyway, how it all went down, I remember very clearly.

10147

It was the last day of July, last year of 2022.

10150

And I remember it because my brother was visiting me in Spain.

10153

And we went out with the family to have lunch at a nearby cafe

10157

and who was sitting at the table next to us, but Zinedine Zidane.

10160

And so we actually have a photograph with Zidane on that day.

10164

And that afternoon I went back home and I was solving a jigsaw puzzle.

10168

I'm a great aficionado of jigsaw puzzles.

10170

And while I was solving it, my arm sort of brushed against my left breast.

10176

And I felt something.

10178

And that's a really awful moment.

10181

I think a lot of us, it's a stuff of nightmares

10184

when there's something on the edges of your consciousness

10187

where you have a premonition.

10189

And then I felt it again and there was something hard.

10192

And I wasn't sure if I was imagining it.

10194

And I asked my husband to come and sort of press upon it.

10197

Is there something there? He said, possibly.

10199

And then that set the whole thing in motion.

10201

And it actually took me about two months before I ended up

10205

with my diagnosis of stage two B breast cancer.

10209

It began with my going to the GP, felt various things,

10213

said, yes, there's definitely something there.

10215

You should go and get a mammogram and an ultrasound.

10218

It's probably nothing.

10220

The problem then was that this was August.

10222

August in Spain and much of Europe means that everybody's on holiday

10226

and everything takes longer.

10228

But I was able to get an appointment and I went and I got a mammogram.

10231

I went and I got an ultrasound.

10234

And I could make out pretty much off the bat

10237

the expression of the technician that something was not great

10240

because initially she was chatting and then suddenly she went a little bit grave.

10245

And then she did it again and then she disappeared.

10248

And then she returned with a doctor.

10250

And then the doctor went through the entire process again.

10253

And then they all disappeared.

10255

And I asked my husband because I was speaking to them in Spanish

10258

and my Spanish is all right, but it's not great.

10260

And I asked my husband to ask them if they had seen anything,

10262

if they could tell us anything.

10264

But they were very tight-lipped and said, you'll get your results in four days.

10267

And in the meantime, we had planned a holiday in Galicia with common friends.

10271

So we went off on the holiday.

10273

And on the fourth day during that holiday, I got a call.

10276

And I was basically told that it showed a mass of very high suspicion

10281

and that I needed to come in and have a biopsy.

10284

And it was something called Byrads 5, which of course I Googled.

10288

And it was very surreal because we were on this incredible island

10291

called the Cislas Islands off the coast of Galicia.

10293

And people were looking at wildlife and the birds.

10296

And here suddenly I was being confronted by the fact that I might, in fact,

10299

I probably had cancer because as I Googled,

10302

Byrads tells you the level of certainty with which it's probably malignant.

10306

And mine was very high. It was Byrads 5.

10309

So I'm not sure at that moment how I felt.

10311

It was a bizarre feeling. On the one hand, I felt apocalyptic.

10315

It was all over. I might die.

10317

I had images of my children having to live without a mother.

10322

Because I like drama and I like my own life, like I told you,

10326

I imagined my own funeral.

10328

I imagined people saying nice things about me.

10330

And then I cried even harder as people were saying,

10332

she was such a great writer, what a great mother.

10336

It's funny. It's almost like you're sort of enjoying the misery in some ways, I would say.

10342

But at the same time, I was with friends and I was in this very disconnected place.

10346

And we were on holiday.

10347

And we were there for the next three days.

10349

And the next time that I could get my appointment for the biopsy was a week later.

10353

So I think that week was probably a very, very hard week.

10356

But I would go through phases when I was able to sort of forget.

10361

And then there would be moments when it would come to me very strongly.

10364

And I had not told my children at that point of time.

10366

So I would spend long periods of time crying,

10370

but without them knowing that I was very disconcerting.

10374

I then returned to Spain.

10376

In Spain, I had the biopsy, which was a pretty horrible experience.

10380

And the biopsy results were great that I had stayed zero cancer,

10383

which is kind of precancerous,

10385

and that they also did a biopsy on my lymph nodes.

10388

And it was clear.

10389

So at that point of time, I felt very happy.

10391

And I was told that this was going to be very simple.

10393

I was going to have a lumpectomy and then offer that some radiation.

10396

And that would be the end of that.

10397

But I decided I'd get a second opinion.

10399

And I went to another hospital.

10401

And they made me go through a series of tests again, including an MRI.

10405

They said that there was some discrepancy between the results of my biopsy

10409

and what they were seeing on the MRI.

10411

And therefore, they wanted me to do a second biopsy.

10413

And it was a more extensive biopsy.

10415

And when they did that biopsy,

10417

it showed that the cancer had actually was not stage zero.

10420

It was stage one cancer.

10421

So at that point, I then had stage one cancer.

10424

I went through surgery.

10425

I had a lumpectomy, et cetera, et cetera.

10427

And at that point, they also, for all women with breast cancer,

10431

take out what is called the sentinel node,

10433

which is the lymph nodes closest to the breast to check.

10435

And to their surprise, they found that I had one sentinel node

10439

that was infected with cancer cells,

10441

which meant that now it was stage two cancer.

10443

So through the whole process of actually arriving at the correct diagnosis

10447

was a two and a half month process.

10449

And it was very difficult because I had to keep kind of leveling up.

10452

You know, you kind of go from, OK, I have cancer.

OK, it's stage zero.

OK, it's stage one.

Now it's stage two.

And then there was this long and difficult conversation

10460

about whether I would have a mastectomy or stick with a lumpectomy.

10463

A lumpectomy is when they only take the tumor out.

10466

Anyway, long story short, in the end, I had a lymphodectomy

10470

where they took out all my lymph nodes.

10471

I had a mastectomy.

10472

And I needed to have five months of chemotherapy

10476

as a kind of insurance policy.

10479

They couldn't, after you had the mastectomy,

10481

they couldn't detect any visible cancer cells.

10484

But because it had infected at least one lymph node,

10486

there's always the possibility of some cancer cells having escaped

10491

and just essentially being invisible.

10493

And the chemo is a full body treatment that attacks that.

10497

So, yeah, we went through that.

10499

And I finished chemo in April, about four months ago.

10503

And I feel very, I don't know what the word is.

10510

I don't feel abnormal in any way.

10512

Like, I think initially when you discovered that you had cancer,

10515

you suddenly felt that everything had shaken up.

10518

You couldn't trust terra firma.

10520

You couldn't trust anything anymore.

10522

That feeling has eased.

10524

And it just feels like part of life.

10526

And I think it's just the realization that all of us are dying.

10529

Some of us are maybe dying a bit faster than others.

10532

But ultimately, we don't know what's going to happen next year.

10536

So at the moment, what they call NED, which is no evidence of disease,

10540

long may that last.

10542

But yeah, I feel like hopefully it will last for a long time.

10545

And if it doesn't, well, something else could have also happened to me

10548

or to anybody else.

10549

There's this kind of crossing over between what Susan Sontag called

10552

the kingdom of the well and the kingdom of the sick

10555

and the fact that we all have dual passports.

10557

And yeah, I ended up using my passport for the kingdom of the sick,

10560

but almost everybody is going to at some point.

10563

And so it's reality as we know it.

10565

It just kind of brings it home to you more clearly.

10568

I think everybody knows that life is very fragile.

10571

We just tend to spend our lives acting as though that's not the case.

10576

And this made it a bit clearer that it would have been otherwise.

10581

You said we went through it.

10583

Tell me about how it changed the dynamics within the family.

10586

How did you tell your kids about it?

10588

This, I suppose, becomes a one thing where you can't just be authentic

10592

and just tell them straightforwardly.

10593

You have to be tactical about it.

10595

Think of the impact on them.

10596

But once they know, how did they respond?

10599

I was quite authentic.

10601

So I was surprised by how much people do not tell their children

10605

because my youngest son's friend's mother came to visit me

10609

and she told me that she had had breast cancer four years ago

10613

and she told me that she had not told either of her children,

10616

despite the fact that she had gone through the whole process that I had,

10619

including a mastectomy and all the chemotherapy.

10622

And she said she wore a wig through the entire process

10625

so that her children never saw her losing her hair.

10627

And she said she found it much easier that way

10629

because she didn't have to deal with the stress of their stress,

10632

which I just found amazing because I saw it completely differently.

10635

I would have found the stress of keeping something that was so huge almost unbearable.

10640

And I was quite, I mean, very transparent with my children.

10645

I don't think maybe everyone would have agreed with that parenting tactic,

10649

but I cried when I cried.

10650

I expressed my fears to them.

10652

But also, I actually genuinely feel that I'm going to be all right,

10656

and my children are very mad.

10658

They've Googled everything and they have all the stats on this.

10661

So if you look at it statistically, I have very good prognosis.

10664

So that's what they think and that's what they keep telling me.

10666

They were incredibly supportive through the whole process,

10669

not overwrought, but at the same time very helpful.

10673

My husband had a great time because he told everybody he would take over.

10677

And while I would lie in bed being sick and he was supposed to be doing all the housework,

10681

instead he got the children to do all the child labor.

10683

So I remember him saying, kids, clean up, kids,

10686

stack the dishwasher, and they did.

10688

And I think it's actually been quite a wonderful maturing process for them.

10692

And I don't think they're frightened.

10694

I really don't.

10695

I think that they feel, yeah, I mean, this was a horrible thing that happened,

10698

but they feel quite confident in things are going to be okay.

10702

And I think perhaps it's because I feel that and my husband feel that

10705

and we communicate it to them.

10707

But at the same time, they know that it was a difficult period.

10710

And I think that maybe it's good exposure to know that life is also difficult

10714

and how you deal with these difficult moments is very important.

10717

And I think we dealt with it with a certain equanimity,

10720

which will keep them in good stead.

10723

I love the lightheartedness with which you wrote about this where at one point you wrote,

10727

How does one say farewell to a part of oneself?

10730

In my case, this is quite literal as I will have a radical mastic to me later this afternoon.

10734

It's been a good breast, tingling pleasurably at the appropriate moments

10738

and feeding my babes when needed.

10740

So I bear it goodbye with sadness, but also the knowledge that impermanence is a way of the world

10745

and that appreciation is deepened by finiteness.

10748

And this is something which at an intellectual level,

10751

many of us can pretend to understand and all of that.

10753

But for you, it was perhaps visceral because you're actually facing

10757

Something like this makes all those intellectual things visceral.

10761

And there's nothing I think that's actually quite beautiful

10764

because there is a lot of appreciation.

10767

You know, the Japanese have that, right?

10769

It's monono avare. Why do they like the sakura so much?

10771

Why do they like the cherry blossom?

10773

Because it is so finite. You have this moment of searing beauty.

10777

But what makes it beautiful is that it does not last.

10780

When something lasts forever and ever and ever, it loses what makes it special.

10784

And so in some ways, you know, life is also like that.

10787

I think what makes it beautiful is that it doesn't last forever.

10789

I wouldn't want to be 120, 150 or whatever.

10792

What makes it special is the way that it burns brightly while it's there.

10797

You know, and I actually really believe that.

10799

Has it made you intentional in different ways?

10802

Tell me about that.

10805

Well, in all of those ways, I mean, these are cliches.

10808

You know, the cup idiom, seize the day, live life as if it were your last.

10813

You know, I came pretty close to that, to thinking that this might be my last day.

10817

So what do you do with that day, Amit?

10820

Do you sort of cry and sort of, you know, or do you go out and have a great time, discover something,

10825

learn, read a poem, you know, play the piano with your child and sing?

10829

And frankly, I would rather do all of those things than lament my fate.

10833

I've had a very good life. I've had a very privileged and fortunate life.

10837

And I think, you know, there's a lot of people in this situation who end up with this why me, why me question.

10843

And I very strongly felt straight off the bat, why not me?

10847

You know, I mean, it happens to so many people.

10849

You go to a cancer hospital and you'll see rooms full of people with all kinds of diseases.

10854

It happens to them. Why not me?

10855

So I felt that, you know, quite strongly from the word go that it's not abnormal.

10861

A lot of people get sick. And so I'm sick.

10864

I'll deal with it to the best I can.

10866

And frankly, there's a lot of privilege in how I was able to deal with it.

10869

I was in a first world country. I had the best doctors.

10872

I had insurance, which covered the whole damn thing.

10875

Paying chemotherapy can cost $200,000, $300,000 if you're paying out of pocket.

10879

I mean, that's insane.

10880

I didn't have to pay anything because my insurance covered it.

10883

And it was, you know, stage two is early. It's not late.

10886

I mean, it's not metastasized or anything like that.

10889

So it was caught reasonably early as well.

10891

There's a lot of research going into breast cancer.

10894

You know, given that situation, it's not a bad hand of cards to have been dealt.

10900

You also have a moving post about how your mother came to visit.

10904

And you write, quote, What she did do was tell me to rest

10908

when everyone else was telling me to exercise.

10910

She massaged my shoulders gently. She stroked my hair.

10913

These were primal moments. It made me hold for a few seconds,

10916

recalling a time when I didn't know what a surgery was and everything was still ahead.

10920

And being brave meant holding back the tears

10922

because you came second in the three-legged race that you really, really wanted to win.

10926

And in that post, one gets a sense that, you know,

10931

that there is either then or later, after your mom died suddenly, after coming back,

10936

a deepening appreciation of that bond between you and your mother.

10940

Tell me a bit about that.

10947

Yeah, you know, my mother could irritate me a lot.

10950

And in some way, she was very infantile, you know,

10953

because, I guess, living in Delhi and being surrounded by help,

10958

when she would come and visit me when I lived abroad,

10961

I would find her incapable of doing very basic things like using the coffee machine

10966

or, you know, figuring out how to use the microwave.

10969

And, like, even the toaster was an adventure for her.

10972

She would kind of stare at the toaster for ages as the toast popped out,

10975

as though it was about to explode.

10977

Or the Wi-Fi password.

10979

The Wi-Fi password. When she used to visit us in Japan,

10982

she was terrified of the toilets because they had all these buttons.

10985

And, you know, we had this warm toilet seat.

10987

She was convinced it was going to electrocute her.

10989

And, you know, so there were times when I would get annoyed by her

10993

because of that kind of behavior.

10995

And she didn't want to explore herself.

10998

She always wanted me to be with her.

11000

And, you know, I remember, like, I would say, why don't you go for a walk?

11004

She'd be like, no, it's okay. I'll wait for you to finish work.

11006

And then she would kind of wait.

11008

And, you know, while I was working, I'd sort of look out and she'd be waiting.

11012

And then, so I wondered for quite a long time

11014

whether I wanted her to be there when I had the surgery.

11017

But then I sort of said, yeah, maybe, maybe I'd want her there.

11023

And for a long time, I said, don't come, don't come,

11025

because she wasn't doing very well.

11027

She had some health problems,

11029

which we thought were related to her having COVID in 2021.

11033

But it had made it difficult for her to sort of travel.

11036

Later, we discovered that she had Parkinson's.

11039

But at that point of time, it had not been diagnosed.

11042

Anyway, so she came. I told her, do come.

11044

And she said, fine, I'll be there.

11046

And she arrived.

11047

And when we went to pick her up at the airport, she was in a wheelchair.

11050

And I said, what the hell has happened?

11052

And it turned out that the day before she had fallen down

11055

and now we of course know she had Parkinson's.

11057

But anyway, she had lost her balance.

11059

She had fallen and she had broken her ankle.

11061

And so she had come in this kind of semi-caste.

11064

And I again remember feeling this huge flash of irritation

11067

because I was like, my God, you're supposed to come here to help me.

11070

And now you've come as an invalid with this broken leg.

11073

And now, you know, we're going to have to look after you.

11075

And all this attention is kind of going to be on you

11077

when I have to go into surgery three days from now.

11080

And so I had this kind of complex feelings about her being there.

11083

And I think she did too.

11085

And I think she felt very bad about it

11087

because she told me that, you know, I've come and I can't...

11090

After I was out of the surgery, she couldn't really help much.

11094

She was hobbling around and we did have to take her to the doctor.

11097

And I think she kind of felt guilty about the fact

11099

that she wasn't of more sort of physical use.

11102

And at the time, I don't know, I guess I was quite focused on myself

11106

and on my recovery.

11108

It was wonderful that she was there.

11110

But again, it was not a pure positive feeling.

11114

It was livened by some of this irritation and so on.

11118

But she was there.

11120

She did have those...

11121

There were those moments that I write about when she would tickle my foot,

11124

when she would just sometimes stroke my head.

11126

And she would just let me be vulnerable.

11128

It was difficult for me to be vulnerable.

11130

I think ever since I've become a mother,

11132

I think for all mothers, it's difficult to be vulnerable

11134

because we feel so protective of our children that it's hard.

11137

It's hard to be the child.

11139

And, you know, the only person you can be that with is your mother.

11141

So I did have those moments with her.

11143

And, you know, sometimes when I was in extreme pain

11146

and I didn't want her to know because I knew it would hurt her,

11149

but somehow she knew because I think mothers know this.

11152

And then she left one month into it.

11155

I have a photograph at the airport.

11157

That was the last time I would see her.

11159

And I think it was six months later that she passed very suddenly.

11163

So this writing that I've done was kind of in retrospect.

11166

So it was really looking back on it from a future where she was no longer there

11171

that some of this made itself apparent to me

11175

of how important it was that she was there during that time

11179

and how it allowed me to be the child for one last time in my life.

11184

Tell me about The Jar of Happiness.

11186

So when she was visiting me in the aftermath of my surgery,

11192

she borrowed a book that I had on my bedside table.

11196

And it was a very prosaic book on the ins and outs of breast cancer

11199

and different types of tumors and the histology of tumors.

11203

But both the writers were women.

11205

One was a doctor, one a nurse who had been through breast cancer themselves.

11208

And there were little periods where they were also sort of bringing their own story into it.

11212

And one of them talked about how it helped for her to write, you know,

11218

just happy moments during the day and put them in a jar

11221

so that at other points when she was going through treatments like chemotherapy and felt down,

11225

she would look back on those moments reading those notes

11228

and sort of remember happy things that had happened.

11231

So my mother had borrowed this book and she was reading it

11233

and she decided to put her own spin on this jar.

11238

And she worked in collaboration with my youngest son, Nico.

11241

And they basically wrote notes to me every evening for a month.

11246

And they were wonderful notes.

11248

And I read them and they were kind of sweet.

11250

But again, I don't think I really appreciate.

11252

I mean, they were kind of nice, but I just thought that they were nice.

11254

And that was the end of that.

11256

And then six months later, she was gone.

11258

And I went to India for the funeral.

11261

And a week later, I flew back to Madrid.

11265

And I remembered these notes that she had written to me.

11268

And I knew exactly where they were because my oldest son had actually pasted them into a book for my birthday.

11274

And he had called it the Book of Memories.

11276

And I went running and I found the book and I opened that.

11278

And the hair stood up on my neck because there was something so prescient about those notes.

11284

And it felt like she was speaking to me.

11286

She was comforting me about the grief I was feeling at her passing, which was very bizarre.

11292

Because she was saying all these things in those notes like, you know, I'm so proud of you.

11297

The best day of my life was the day that you were born.

11300

And there will be storms in the future, but you know, you will weather them.

11304

And there was just this infinite ocean of love and wisdom contained in these notes.

11309

And it really felt as though there was some kind of premonition she had.

11313

I mean, when you read them with that hindsight, it is quite an experience.

11318

Yeah, it's a beautiful poster. I'll link it from the show notes.

11321

So the listeners can sort of you've posted some of those notes, images of some of those notes.

11325

And it just made me tear up.

11327

So, you know, I've taken many hours of your time.

11330

Thank you so much for doing this. You were in Bombay only for three days.

11332

So I'm really grateful that you spent almost an entire day like this with Chaddha and me.

11336

I'm much more fit with me than Chaddha.

11340

So I'll ask you to end it the way I traditionally end my episodes these days.

11344

Recommend for me and my listeners books, films, music, which mean a lot to you.

11351

So I'm reading a really interesting book right now.

11354

It's by an author called Maggie O'Farrell and it's called I Am, I Am, I Am.

11359

And it's a kind of memoir, but it's one of the most interesting memoirs I've read.

11363

It's told in 17 episodes.

11365

It's 17 different essays of near-death experiences through her life.

11369

And it made me think about my own life very differently because none of some of these were real near-death experiences,

11375

like, you know, medical emergencies and things of the sort.

11378

But many other times it was just like brushes with death that you almost don't realize.

11382

Like, I don't know, you're swimming in the ocean and there's a very strong current and you go under.

11386

And then you're able to come back out and everything, nobody has even noticed.

11390

But in that one moment, you thought you were drowning.

11392

And yeah, and so she recalls her life like that.

11396

So I would recommend that very much.

11398

Like I said, it's by Maggie O'Farrell.

11400

In terms of music, let me think.

11404

Let me have a look at what I'm actually listening to.

11408

So what's very big in Spain is reggaeton, which I absolutely love.

11415

And it's so kitsch.

11417

And there's people called Bad Bunny.

11419

This is basically from Colombia and Latin America, so kind of the empire strikes back and coming back into Spain.

11425

A lot of sort of heavy bass notes.

11427

So I quite like reggaeton and in particular this guy called Bad Bunny, which is very unlike me.

But there you go.

So books and music.

Films?

What's the last film that made you cry?

11441

The last two films I saw were Oppenheimer and Barbie.

11444

And I can't really remember what I watched.

11446

Neither of them made me cry.

11448

I liked Oppenheimer and I was indifferent to Barbie.

11453

What was the film that made me cry?

11458

Ever.

11459

No, I'm sure there have been many.

11461

They're just being put on the spot right now.

11463

I can't come up with any.

11465

Tell me yours and then perhaps I shall think of one.

11469

I actually cry very easily.

11471

I mean, like I told you, you know, I made even things like The Lord of the Rings.

11475

The moment that there's a hint of sort of, you know, good against evil, I get quite teary about it.

11483

So it's not been that difficult to make me cry.

11485

But I'm just not sort of thinking of a single movie right now that is sort of popping up in my head.

11489

What is the movie that has made you cry?

11492

Kieslowski's Decalogue.

11494

That was years ago that I watched that.

11496

Dead Poets Society when I was a teenager.

11498

Oh yeah, Dead Poets Society had me in tears and it still does.

11501

Oh, Captain My Captain, you just need to say that and I'm flooded in tears. Absolutely.

11505

Did too. That's a great note then to end the episode on.

11508

Pallavi, thank you so much for your time. This was fantastic.

11510

Not at all. Thank you.

11522

Visit your nearest bookstore online or offline by all her books.

11525

Tremendous writer. You can follow Pallavi on Twitter at Pallavi Yair.

11529

That's one word. You can follow me on Twitter at Amit Varma A-M-I-T-B-A-R-M-A.

11533

You can browse past episodes of The Scene and the Unseen at sceneunseen.in.

11537

Thank you for listening.

11552

Don't forget to subscribe to our channel.

Ep 351： Pallavi Aiyar Has Seen the World | The Seen and the Unseen