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Some people think that a long conversation changes only the quantity of conversation.
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A long conversation also changes the quality by changing the nature of the conversation.
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A 5 hour conversation is not like 5 1 hour chats.
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It's a whole different beast which goes to spaces fragmented conversations cannot.
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This is because when you do a long conversation, you're forced to listen, actually listen.
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And as Stephen Covey would say, you listen to understand, not to respond.
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Your ego leaves a building as you immerse yourself into the thoughts and memories of
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And they get to immerse themselves in it as well.
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There is no hurry, no one is interrupting them and they can sink into their own minds
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and go deeper and deeper.
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The prepared sound bites and the subjects they are experts in are irrelevant now.
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They can be vulnerable, they can be open, they can be themselves.
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That's why I love long form conversations and so do so many of you because that's why
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you're listening to The Scene and The Unseen, right?
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Which is why I was particularly looking forward to this episode.
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My guest today is also a connoisseur of the long, unhurried conversation, but today he
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gets to be on the other side and he will do most of the talking.
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Welcome to The Scene and The Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics and behavioural
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Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
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Welcome to The Scene and The Unseen.
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My guest today is Saeed Muhammad Irfan, who has had an illustrious career in radio and
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television and is best known for his interview show Guftagu.
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I've always loved Irfan Sahib's interviewing style.
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So genteel, so respectful, so thoughtful in terms of the directions he takes his guests
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He's had many, many, many guests from the world of art and culture and cinema.
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When I think of him almost as a preserver of a bygone age, you will see traces of this
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in his own memories during the conversation.
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I must warn you that most of our chat is in Urdu or Hindustani, whatever you choose to
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call it, because I wanted him to be comfortable and true to the way he thinks.
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This just felt natural.
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Apologies to those of my listeners who prefer English, but I'm sure you understand.
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Now before you go on to listen to this lovely conversation, which I enjoyed so much, let
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me tell you that after much neglect, I have become super regular with my newsletter at
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IndiaUncut.Substack.com.
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So please head on over and subscribe IndiaUncut.Substack.com.
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And now for a quick commercial break.
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Hey, the music started and this sounds like a commercial, but it isn't.
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It's a plea from me to check out my latest labor of love, a YouTube show I am co-hosting
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with my good friend, the brilliant Ajay Shah.
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We've called it Everything is Everything.
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Every week we'll speak for about an hour on things we care about, from the profound
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to the profane, from the exalted to the everyday.
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We range widely across subjects and we bring multiple frames with which we try to understand
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Please join us on our journey and please support us by subscribing to our YouTube channel at
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YouTube.com slash Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A.
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The show is called Everything is Everything.
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Please do check it out.
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Irfan Sahib, welcome to the Seen in the Unseen.
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I am really honored to have you on because somebody asked me who are you recording with
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today earlier in the morning.
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And I said I am recording with a gentleman who has been doing for decades what I have
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been trying to learn to do in a few years, which is, you know, these beautiful deep long
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And today I want to talk to you about really everything, your life, your work, whatever
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But I want to begin with a slightly unusual question.
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A few months ago, I was at a book talk and at the book talk, after it was over, people
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who had heard my show came to me and they were kind of talking to me.
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So a lady came with her husband and she said, I have heard every episode of yours.
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Tell me one thing, Amitji, have you ever shouted at someone in your life?
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And when I heard that, at first I found it very amusing.
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Later on, I started thinking and I felt that there is something here which is sort of nagging
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at me because the image that people have of me from the show, you know, there's more
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That is, of course, me.
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But there is more to me.
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Like, of course, I've shouted at people.
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Of course, I have many vices.
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Of course, I'm not rational all the time.
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And there is another self you could say, which is unseen, whereas, you know, what you hear
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is sort of the seen self.
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And I was thinking about you.
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And I was thinking that whatever I have seen of Irfan for so many years, both on Rekhta
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recently, Rajya Sabha TV before that and whatever one has heard of him before that, you come
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across as a very gentle, soft spoken, cultured person, always in control, always sorted.
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So I want to ask you that show me the unseen, Irfan, tell me a little bit about something
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that people may not know of you, like when you were young, were you hot blooded?
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Show me a side of you that, you know, one cannot see in the public domain.
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Look, if we start from here, what those women asked you, have you ever shouted at someone?
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This happens because a person is not a machine.
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There comes a time when you lose your sister.
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But if we lose our sister in the work we are doing, then it affects the whole work.
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That is why, when you are working, you make yourself a person.
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And apart from work, obviously, you are a person who is made up of shortcomings and shortcomings,
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I will say that the more I learned after listening, the more I learned after reading.
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I have a lot of friends who read a lot.
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They read a lot, and I mean, how do they read?
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They read a lot despite their age, but they read a lot.
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So, I think I have a kind of jealousy with them that how do they read so much?
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Then I think that my way of learning is to learn by listening, and it is not from today,
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it is from a long time ago, which I learned by listening to the radio myself.
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So, in learning, not only do you process information, but also the style,
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how things are presented, there are a lot of things, articulation, you learn all this.
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So, I will say that, as if in every person, there are good and bad things,
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I am made up of those good and bad things.
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Maybe we will talk more about what those bad things can be, the other side of Irfan.
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We will talk further, okay.
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Tell me about your childhood, like you have said in other interviews,
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and I will link all your interviews in the show notes.
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You have spoken about how you were born in this industrial town,
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in the Amirzapur district, which is now split.
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And what I found fascinating whenever you have described that childhood in that township,
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is how completely opposite it is from a life that one would live today.
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Like, young people today may not be so close to nature as you were,
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may not be so comfortable with nature,
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they will, you know, be interacting with other humans less,
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and perhaps lost more in their phones, looking into their screens.
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Their entertainment will be different, everything will be different.
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Now, of course, there are many good things about the present day,
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that in today's day, whatever song you want to listen to,
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you press a button and you get it, whatever book you want to read, you can read.
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In our time, there was scarcity, whatever we got, we used to read, we used to listen,
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because, you know, it was the same.
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But I also feel that, along with all the things we have gained,
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that something is lost, that there is perhaps less of a chance of a person
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developing a certain dhairav, when you are living a comfortable life.
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And also, just in playing outdoors, just a form of play is so different.
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So, I want you to tell me a little bit about your growing up days,
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in terms of, what were the texture of your days, like, what was the atmosphere at home,
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how were your parents, when you used to go out to play,
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in those small townships, which you've described beautifully as,
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sort of a valley with hills all around, and nature all around.
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So, take me, paint me a picture of what your days were like in that time.
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As you have heard in your old interviews,
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and perhaps I will repeat those things here, perhaps for your own children,
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because it is not necessary that everyone has visited all those links,
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or whatever links you will give them, you can see them,
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and that time will also be saved.
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So, I will say that, first of all, this cement factory,
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I am saying this because later it was privatized, then sold,
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then it became abundant, which means that there is no cement factory anymore.
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There were three cement factories in that series, one of them is called Dala.
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Dala Cement Factory, then Churk Cement Factory,
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and then Chunar Cement Factory.
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There are three cement factories in one series,
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and earlier that district used to be Mirzapur, now it is in Sonbhadra.
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Among them, two parts of the cement factory, Churk Cement Factory,
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where I was born, my father was looking for a job there,
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that a factory has been built there.
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I have done a three-hour long talk with him in the year 2000,
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in which I have tried to record his life journey,
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that day and that experience of his there.
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So, he himself tells how he left the Jehanabad town of Fatehpur district
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and came to Churk in search of a job, and then started working there.
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Later, by transferring him from the cement factory,
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because he was involved in trade union activities,
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so the bonus of the labourers should be increased,
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or the salaries should be given on time,
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there should be promotions, all these things.
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In the first few months, he got involved in this.
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So, in a way, his punishment posting was done in the mines below.
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So, I was born again in the mines there.
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Meaning, you understand that the cement factory is above,
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if you look from the top from the mountains,
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then there is a mine in the valley below.
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So, in the mine, the name of which is Gurma Markundi.
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This is so close to my heart, this word in itself,
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that when I say Gurma or Gurma Markundi,
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then it is a part of my being,
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a part of my cultural construct, a part of my existence.
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Maybe that is what shaped me, shaped me in various ways.
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Let me tell you that there, because it was a region of the Adivasis,
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and the cement was there, meaning, in the rocks,
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that's why the cement factory was built there.
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There were bunds being made there,
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so that was the time when Nehru Ji was saying
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that the factories were like temples of New India.
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In those days, factories were being built very fast,
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and for the factories or bunds,
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cement was needed, which was being washed.
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If not done from a very far distance,
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then the cement would be found nearby,
#
so that cement factory was built there.
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And obviously, in those days,
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there were good relations between Eastern Europe and Russia,
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so machines came from there,
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and engineers came from there,
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who installed the machines.
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We didn't see it that way, it was functional then,
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but later, when this app called WikiMapia came,
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I saw that some of our friends marked their houses on the map.
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So, a man from Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia,
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is this cement factory working now?
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I installed the machines here.
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So, in a virtual world like this,
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I gave an answer to that man,
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and then he also gave an answer.
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that the Churk cement factory, Gurma...
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So, it is said that the local inhabitants there,
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when they were told to work in the factory,
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they didn't work there,
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because they were scared of seeing machines,
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and they used to run in the jungle.
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So, most people came from outside,
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meaning from nearby areas,
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people came from UP, Bihar,
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and many times from Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu,
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Andhra Pradesh, Punjab.
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In this way, the entire colony of 500-700 houses
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and if you keep these people in it,
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who come to install machines or for maintenance,
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then we see the whole world,
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not just people of different languages and cultures of India,
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but people from all over the world.
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Now, if I enter this window,
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I will keep telling you for the next 6 hours,
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So, I will tell you that,
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because of being a tribal area,
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I discovered this later,
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a journalist from there,
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he was associated with our Facebook,
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so I went to his wall and saw,
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that if you take a photograph of the landscape of Gurma,
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Churk, Markundi, Chowpan areas,
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and cut many pieces of that photograph,
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and if I can see a small piece of it,
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then I can say that this flora fauna,
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this grass, this tree, this turn, this road,
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this can only be of Gurma.
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So, those who were tribal,
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our relationship was either immediate with our neighbors,
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apart from this, an outside world,
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in a week or otherwise,
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because there were mountains all around,
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so the water that was collected from the mountains,
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it became a mountain river.
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You won't call it such a river,
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it was a river made temporarily from the mountains,
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which was later found in Son.
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it won't have any name,
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but we used to call it Ghaagar.
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Later it seemed that Ghaagar river is a big national river,
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It was a small mountain stream,
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which was very mysteriously deep in many places.
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They used to say that maggots also live there.
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Cows used to live there,
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pan-eel snakes used to live there,
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and they used to run right behind our house.
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So, if you remember the afternoon of Gurma's summers,
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in which we immediately go,
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there is a river right next to it,
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so some people who don't know how to swim,
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they will clap on the shore.
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Those who know how to swim,
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they will cross over the big branches of the banana,
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later they used to fill their pajamas with water
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and make a life-saving jacket out of it.
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who used to come to the neighbourhood to sell wood,
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or to sell some wild berries and fruits.
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And the whole sonic environment there is completely different.
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In which there is a small man wearing a small piece of clothing,
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and a man with a thick veil on his feet.
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Those veils are typical of the Bheel and Gond tribal people,
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who are like a pipe, they are quite heavy.
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They have metal balls inside them,
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And there is a thing called a duff,
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in which they put small thin sticks on their fingers
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And then you will see that no one is in a hurry to go anywhere.
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In our place, a bus used to go to Mirzapur in the morning,
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and one day it used to go to Banaras.
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If you want to go somewhere,
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then that bus will work for you in the morning.
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That is, that bus will take you to Banaras from the square of Gurma colony,
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and one day it will go to Mirzapur.
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As everyone knew that if you want to go to Banaras on alternate days,
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then on this day, the driver and the conductor used to sleep in their bus,
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and if someone took a house next to it,
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then it was a kind of homely bus.
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There was no other bus.
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The rest of the cement factory staff's jeeps and so on,
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they will take you a little far.
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The main road was about 4 km from there.
#
while from right above us,
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it used to be said that this is the largest thermal power plant in Asia.
#
But on our special railway station,
#
at least looking at me, there was no electricity.
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That is, if you got off at the railway station,
#
then you had to make your way through the torches with difficulty.
#
And the Adivasi who used to feed you from their absence,
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or who used to come to your house on a Sunday,
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then you used to feel that they were not in a hurry to go anywhere.
#
They had an unwavering patience in their life.
#
So I was saying that when I talked about the journalist friend, senior,
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looking at his pictures, I felt that maybe we got that patience from there too.
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I mean, I can say that there was never such a hurry that
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someone has to reach somewhere quickly,
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someone has to get angry at something quickly,
#
Many times it happened that we used to take a bus from school,
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after 10th, which used to take to Churk.
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And if in the afternoon,
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if you found out that there is no class after noon,
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then you thought that let's go home on foot.
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The meaning of walking home was that the road of about 4 km
#
was through the jungle and a river used to flow here.
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So you took the shortcut route and found out that you had forgotten
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that it is rainy days, that the river is just above and now the way is to go back.
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Otherwise, you used to go with your feet on the stones.
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So there was never such a complaint that
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this is a betrayal, I got angry, not on this matter.
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Now, the way you came back, you went back like that,
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then waited for the evening, then came back in the evening.
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So I can say that in the life of Gurma,
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where we were growing up,
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there was a lot of patience, there was a lot of patience.
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No one was angry because there were not many choices,
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there were not so many people in the market, there were small joys.
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When Choingam used to come, it seemed that Choingam
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has to go to Churk because Choingam is sold there.
#
So Choingam was a fascination.
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Gurma used to feel that here everyone knows each other.
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If you go to Churk, it used to feel like a city.
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It used to feel that you can enjoy a little anonymity here.
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If you are doing something, then a person who comes and goes will not say that
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someone will complain to your father.
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Whereas in Gurma, everyone knew someone.
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If you are walking around somewhere at night, or you have gone to class bunk,
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or something like that.
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So everyone had a good wish for each other.
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And not because they wanted your bad.
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They wanted that according to them,
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the life that a child should live,
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or their child should live, in the same way their friend's child should live.
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That's why they used to complain.
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And we used to feel that we can't do anything here.
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If you get stuck in love, then you will soon get news about the four houses.
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In Churk, there is a little less of this.
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So I would say that school used to feel very far away.
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Now it is such a small area of this mine.
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In which you used to feel that you are going to school.
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How can you reach home early?
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If you have skates, then you can reach.
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Or if you watch movies, then you can reach with skates.
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Or if you have a cycle, then you can reach.
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Or if you get a puncture in your foot.
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Although there was very little distance.
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There was not much distance between the school and the school.
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The school used to get off at 3, 3.30, 4 o'clock.
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And then you used to settle down.
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If you want, we used to meet a couple of friends.
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Then we used to go into the jungle.
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There was beer, Makoy, whatever happened in that season.
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You were exploring the edges of the railway line.
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One day I felt that if you look around, then there are mountains.
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There was one mountain that was very high, the highest.
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Visually, if you look, if you do visual mapping, then you feel that the mountain used to be called Khodwa mountain.
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So we decided to go to the Khodwa mountain.
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Then let's go on a cycle.
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Because we wanted to see that we had to climb the highest mountain.
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We walked and walked and walked and walked and walked.
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We found out that the height that was visible from a distance was not suddenly high.
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Actually, before going to that height, you had to go through many small heights.
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And not just heights, but heights, then downs, then heights, then zig-zag.
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Then where you are going, you see that there are people there.
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We were looking for a mountain on which we would do some adventure like mountaineering.
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That intention itself failed.
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So this is the nature, the landscape that I am talking about.
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Now think about it, we used to have scouting.
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In scouting, our school's scouting team was there.
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And there was a jail camp there.
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So the prisoners of the jail camp were made into a team.
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If you want to go on a picnic, then the prisoners and the students will go together.
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You know that in those days, there were probably education ministers.
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And there was a time when there were two eyes and twelve hands.
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That the criminals should not be considered criminals.
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And that they should be given a chance to improve.
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So for this, open jails were made.
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One of them was the second open jail.
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Let's tell you about the first one in UP.
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In Sitarganj, near Nainital, there was such an open jail.
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In which there were no walls from all sides.
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And it was different from conventional jails.
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So there was such an open jail in Gurma.
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In which there were people who were punished for life imprisonment.
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They were made with the concept of giving them a chance to improve.
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And the prisoners lived there.
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I think until I remember, the prisoners lived there around 11-1200.
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And their different jobs were divided.
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Meaning that if you can farm, then you will go to the jail for farming.
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If you were a tailor and committed a crime, then you will sew clothes there.
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If you know how to paint, then you will paint on the doors and make some flowers on them.
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If you were a teacher, then you will teach the prisoners there.
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If you were a doctor or were in some kind of medical profession, then you will work as a ward boy or assist.
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If you don't know anything, then you will break stones.
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So for that, a command will be made.
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There will be a guard at the front of the jail.
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And at the back there will be a queue of 40-45 people.
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They will be counted while leaving the jail.
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They will go there while walking.
#
At the site where the stones were broken by blasting,
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the big stones would come out of the blasting.
#
So to break them into primary pieces, there were big hammers.
#
So in a way, they will not be sitting in the jail.
#
They will be used for their labour or capacity.
#
And then, of course, this will be their daily life.
#
Apart from this, they also have their own human life or aspect
#
in which they will sing some songs or decorate a jhanmashtami.
#
Or they will do Ramlila in the city.
#
So I will say that there are two aspects of the Ramlila that used to happen in Gurma.
#
First, a party was called from Darbhanga, which was called Tay.
#
It was the welfare committee of Gurma.
#
And of course, some officers, some employees joined together and made a body.
#
And some contributed to each other.
#
A month earlier, the party of Darbhanga will be informed, postcard or whatever,
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that you have to come on this date.
#
So they used to come before Dashara.
#
And there was a club, which was a common recreational club.
#
And there was a hospital next to it.
#
So these were two places where many people could be accommodated.
#
They used to lay their beds and sleep there.
#
And the general ward of the hospital, usually no patient was admitted there.
#
Everyone was in such a way that if someone had a fever, they took their medicine and left.
#
If there is any case of maternity, then one or two beds may be engaged.
#
The general ward used to be empty.
#
And in the days of Ramlila, in the days of Dashara, these parties used to come and get treated.
#
So one thing was that parties used to come from Darbhanga.
#
The meaning of parties is that it is a kind of practice associated with the conventional touring theatre companies.
#
They used to come in the days of Nautanki, in the days of Jatra.
#
You know, different rural entertainment experiences.
#
So this Ramlila company used to put up a stage in the Gurmah club of the cement factory for 10 days.
#
And they used to bring all the curtains with them.
#
And they used to do it there.
#
When it used to end, the Mela Ramlila used to take place for 10 days.
#
After that, Ram's Rajya Abhishek took place.
#
Then all these rituals were over.
#
But we did not allow the stage to be dismantled.
#
We made a small theatre company later.
#
In which we made a modern play.
#
Because Ramlila was a traditional form for you.
#
We used to make a small play in those days when there were holidays all over the city.
#
We used to get together 4-5 guys and make a play.
#
Because we did not have to build new infrastructure.
#
Where to get curtains, where to get sound systems.
#
And the second thing was that it used to be the Mela season.
#
People used to watch Ramlila for 10 days.
#
So they used to watch our play on the 11th.
#
So this was a play in which you were not only a spectator of Ramlila.
#
In fact, you used to make your own play during Ramlila.
#
There are some people who will sing, play, act, direct, do make-up.
#
We did not know what we were doing.
#
But the inspiration was the same people who were doing there.
#
They had a big set pattern.
#
When yoga starts, Vyas ji will start reading some of his opay.
#
And on loudspeakers you will get to know that today this will happen.
#
Today there will be Dhanush Yagya, today there will be Sita Haran.
#
So you will remember that.
#
And if you go to the jail's Ramlila.
#
I have said this many times.
#
Because the jail camp's Ramlila fascinated me so much.
#
That I have never seen such a Ramlila.
#
I was in Patna for some time.
#
There also I thought that there should be a traditional group where I could see Ramlila.
#
But after coming to Delhi, there was no Ramlila.
#
The same Ramlila which used to take place in the jail camp.
#
One thing is that the whole team used to do Ramlila with a lot of dedication.
#
Most of the time there were prisoners.
#
But apart from that there were also jailers.
#
I remember that the role of Laxman was played by a jailer.
#
He was very fair and handsome.
#
Such a character of Laxman has also been thought of.
#
Then there was Hanuman Ji.
#
The concrete that used to go on the trolleys from our plant.
#
So the hydraulic trolley system was there.
#
Everyone had its know-how and its material.
#
So from the Ramlila stage, about 200 meters away on a pole,
#
a proxy Hanuman Ji used to sit on a hydraulic system.
#
In which he used to sit with the Sanjeevani Bhuti mountain in his hand.
#
The lights used to come.
#
Suddenly you come to know that Hanuman Ji is flying from there.
#
Obviously he was not told how he was flying.
#
Because the wire was not visible.
#
And he was sitting on something that was not visible.
#
It seemed that he was coming flying.
#
Then he came to the stage.
#
Then the real Hanuman used to jump from there.
#
And then the next game used to take place.
#
At that age, when I was watching that Ramlila,
#
that Ramlila used to start after the Ramlila of Gurma was over.
#
Sometimes it used to be together, sometimes it used to clash.
#
That Sita Swamvaram has happened here.
#
And there is also happening there, so that no one gets missed.
#
So delaying it for a little one or two days,
#
so that if something gets missed here, you can see it there.
#
Apart from this, we could have gone to jail.
#
And because of scouting, we became friends with many prisoners.
#
There was a prisoner who was a teacher.
#
And he was a teacher of craft.
#
And I was very interested in craft.
#
Bookcraft used to be their subject.
#
And I was very interested in bookcraft.
#
Making models from various books.
#
And then the prisoner I am talking about,
#
his name was maybe Kripa Shankar or something like that.
#
So he used to help in making various models.
#
And then it felt good that you can't call him a prisoner.
#
Otherwise you would have to pay a fine of 25 paise.
#
You can call him a prisoner.
#
There was a sophisticated name for him.
#
You won't call him a prisoner, he is not a criminal.
#
Don't mess with the criminal, not the criminal.
#
It was a gate like that.
#
And during the picnic, we would get to know each other even more.
#
you can see the festival of Janmashtami,
#
Everything was happening in unison there.
#
There was a temple right next to my house.
#
In which the priest could not be seen with one eye.
#
So one thing was that his shoes were stolen from outside.
#
So that he would be a little upset.
#
That was the game of childhood.
#
But later when all these debates started,
#
and the historical and mythological characters,
#
their interrelations, their names,
#
it was clear that I was the one who was moved forward.
#
That I am the one who is doing Shastrarth in the debate with the priest.
#
Or if there is Janmashtami's decoration,
#
then no one will ask you who you are.
#
Everyone is doing Janmashtami's decoration together.
#
I remember that a Kirtaniyan used to come from somewhere.
#
And when he used to sing Kirtan,
#
if one side of it is longer,
#
and the other side is smaller,
#
then I will not be able to focus on his singing.
#
I used to think that he would have balanced both of them.
#
But I remember well that
#
there were many days full of music and traditional sound.
#
In which, as I said earlier,
#
that we have to reach somewhere very soon.
#
We have to achieve something very soon.
#
So I would say that in the days of Gurma,
#
there was a lot of patience
#
that maybe one day I will study from there.
#
It's a very beautiful account.
#
I have so many questions
#
just based on what you just said.
#
You know, you mentioned you spoke with your,
#
recorded your father for three hours,
#
and I did that as well a few years ago
#
I sat with him for a couple of hours
#
and just tried to record his memories.
#
So I find it very beautiful
#
and I tell young people everywhere that
#
you know, you should do this,
#
you should capture the past,
#
otherwise it all kind of drifts away.
#
I also felt that there are so many metaphors.
#
Like at a very simple level,
#
the mountain which seemed so
#
but when you went to climb,
#
it was all very natural,
#
a little bit of walking,
#
a little bit of going down,
#
it is not really so difficult,
#
and there is a metaphor in there
#
about life and striving and all of that.
#
And also there is, in my mind,
#
the whole place, you know,
#
is like in a sense a metaphor for
#
how one's world expands.
#
In the beginning you are there,
#
your whole world is the same,
#
and then 40 years later,
#
you are looking at, you know,
#
and saying where is this?
#
And I will ask you a question
#
which I have asked many of my guests,
#
they always get very interesting
#
And the first time I thought of it
#
was I did an episode with Amitabh Kumar
#
Rahim Azum Razaaz, Andhagau,
#
where these people go to this village
#
to request a person to come to Pakistan,
#
and that person, his name is Tannu,
#
but I love this village
#
because I myself am this village.
#
I love the indigo warehouse,
#
this tank and these mud lanes
#
because they are very different
#
I certainly remembered Allah,
#
but instead of Mecca and Karbala,
#
And I have asked many of my guests,
#
And I want to ask you the same,
#
I feel that Gurmah is obviously...
#
it will seem that Gurmah is...
#
That the love with which
#
it seems that it is at the core of you,
#
but equally your home also lies
#
and all the things you have done.
#
How would you answer this
#
Till I ask you more narrow questions,
#
and one sister at home.
#
of a mid-level employee
#
You can understand that.
#
So I had a life full of challenges.
#
But if I ever think today
#
that I had a lot of feelings,
#
because there was no consumerism,
#
we were not able to see
#
or clothes made in the market.
#
to deliver accessible books
#
there were home library cards.
#
that you become a member in one rupee,
#
whenever you print new books,
#
they will come to you via VPP
#
and they were very cheap books,
#
I discussed this concept
#
in the conversation series
#
in the last years of his life
#
because Hind Pocket Books
#
was a revolution in Hindi.
#
that the post office was made
#
and taken to a post office.
#
The same thing happened in Sankat Mochan.
#
in the publishing house's campus.
#
here, near Dilshad Garden,
#
there was a post office
#
my father was interested
#
when you open your eyes.
#
when the factory policy came
#
a common library in the factory,
#
it was obvious that my father
#
was made an incharge in it
#
and what books would be bought
#
there was one book in his cycle bag.
#
Since that library was made,
#
some book would always be in his bag.
#
in reading from my home.
#
I never saw my grandmother
#
But I saw my grandmother.
#
And this was Radio Ceylon.
#
from morning till evening.
#
And my grandmother was interested
#
in listening to old songs
#
when tape recorders came,
#
my father bought a tape recorder
#
where newspapers were difficult to get,
#
there used to be a newspaper
#
whose name used to be Janvarta.
#
Later, maybe Dainik Jagranat also came.
#
how did that newspaper come?
#
the name of the cement factory was Churk.
#
A little further from that,
#
which is now the district headquarter
#
there used to be a Shukla magazine
#
from Banaras or Mirzapur
#
used to stop at Robertsganj,
#
would be given to the driver.
#
The driver would put it under his seat.
#
that when the bus came,
#
you go and stand there.
#
The driver would take it out on his own
#
and give you the newspaper tied to a string.
#
and later Dinman, Sarika,
#
Dharmayug, Saptaik Hindustan,
#
such magazines also started coming.
#
the biggest attraction.
#
Sarveshwar Dayal Saxena.
#
He used to be its editor.
#
It was a Times of India magazine.
#
Apart from this, Nandan was there,
#
and I wasn't very interested in that.
#
more of a kid-ish reading experience.
#
had a different interest
#
in reading at that time.
#
Then, slowly, Sarika and Dinman
#
I wasn't very interested in current affairs.
#
But while listening to the radio,
#
what was happening in the world,
#
kept coming to my ears.
#
what was happening in that,
#
what was happening in Nilli.
#
All these things kept coming
#
to my ears through the radio.
#
Later, in a general knowledge competition,
#
So all that was different.
#
Maybe the reason was that I wasn't
#
or I wasn't even in sports,
#
I was more interested in sports.
#
So, in the home environment,
#
And it won't be considered bad.
#
And it won't be considered that
#
it is standing in the way of a syllabus.
#
the library of our Chorg Cement Factory
#
was also a very good library.
#
We used to be librarians.
#
we used to imitate them
#
how many books they have.
#
They know where they are kept in the rack
#
and they will take them out and give them to you.
#
They will also inspire you
#
that you should read this book.
#
we had a postcard size library card
#
We had to issue a new card.
#
could be issued on one side
#
from the inter-college library.
#
there are Bhagat Singh,
#
I read a lot of Shivani literature.
#
I read about Gandhi's Katha Ho
#
was opening up in front of me
#
because to know the world,
#
you either had these small paths
#
Television had not come yet.
#
High antennas had to be installed,
#
Because there were mountains all around,
#
you saw that everywhere,
#
when you turned, there was a signal.
#
So, those were the early days
#
of black and white television.
#
coincidentally, there were teachers
#
that needed to be honed up.
#
speech-giving competitions,
#
There was a teacher who
#
that he was a friend of
#
and had an inter-religious
#
or inter-caste marriage
#
through which they ran away from
#
Banaras and took shelter
#
publish their poems in newspapers
#
And they would become quiet
#
Often, I would sit with them
#
If I wanted to write something
#
or take part in a debate,
#
I would ask them to tell me
#
the importance of discipline
#
If I wanted to write about this,
#
I would ask them to tell me
#
the importance of discipline
#
to say what they wanted to say.
#
that the discussion would end
#
but then it would start again.
#
as much as today's parenting.
#
We pay a lot of attention
#
and open a dialogue with children.
#
It was not like that in our childhood.
#
it was an authoritative father
#
and some good qualities.
#
What was your imaginative life like
#
Did you have daydreams?
#
anyone can pick up the phone
#
There was such a scarcity of books
#
you are consuming the book.
#
and take all of that in.
#
What was your interior life like?
#
What are you dreaming about?
#
What do you want to be in the future?
#
How are you seeing yourself in the world?
#
Because how we see ourselves
#
and that's what I am trying to understand.
#
we have talked about this before
#
a lot of films in our lives.
#
Ever since I opened my eyes,
#
I never had to run away from home
#
I never ran away from home to watch films.
#
There was no need for that
#
because it was easily available.
#
that the film would be shown
#
in Churk and then in Gurma.
#
When we started going to Churk
#
later, friends would tell us
#
that the film was shot yesterday.
#
The film was shot yesterday,
#
so we knew that Ganga Jumna
#
would be here the next day
#
or on the next Saturday.
#
if the reel had arrived,
#
the film would not go back.
#
If the film had been shown in Churk,
#
then it would be the next film
#
a very interesting chapter
#
the film or the film's cover,
#
he was also a film director.
#
he would tie a handkerchief
#
it was a mountainous area.
#
He would take off his shirt
#
and put a projector on it.
#
He would do the first thing
#
he would touch two strings
#
which would make a strange sound
#
which would tell that the sound is being checked.
#
A curtain would be put in the open
#
and a curtain would be laid
#
a notice would be put outside the club.
#
the general is informed
#
whoever would return from shift duty,
#
everyone would be curious
#
that today is the film.
#
What is the film today?
#
If the film turns out to be mischievous,
#
then someone will tell a lie.
#
there would be a strange wave
#
in the whole atmosphere
#
that the film would be done today.
#
as soon as the film is confirmed,
#
and watch the film together.
#
different kinds of characters
#
but if you wanted to do something in it,
#
then you didn't have to.
#
it certainly happened that
#
yes, whatever is happening,
#
then it can be said that
#
if there was any inspiration,
#
I wanted to speak on the radio
#
and speak in the same way
#
used to speak and express
#
and a magic would be created.
#
I mean, it was a strange kind of programming.
#
Today, thinking about the programming,
#
I mean, think that in Urdu service,
#
there are four radio series.
#
I found four radio series
#
on their YouTube channel.
#
because I have been listening to BBC
#
since I was in the 7th or 8th grade,
#
whether the weekly program is in Hindi
#
were right after Hindi.
#
in seven days, there will be seven different
#
there was no focus on career.
#
becoming doctors and engineers.
#
And that was the first generation
#
Only they could learn it.
#
Someone was studying in Banaras,
#
someone was studying in Allahabad.
#
In someone's engineering college,
#
somewhere in Pilani-Vilani,
#
it is a different matter.
#
They used to study in Banaras
#
or in the universities of Allahabad.
#
And someone was studying in LLB,
#
someone was preparing for medical,
#
someone was preparing for engineering.
#
Because I myself was a science student
#
when I reached the university of Allahabad,
#
I decided that it won't work in science.
#
I took admission in arts and humanities
#
and did my pre-graduation.
#
after reaching Allahabad,
#
you used the phrase that it was like a mini-India,
#
people are coming from everywhere
#
and it is a microcosm of the country.
#
And it seems to me to be
#
beautifully cosmopolitan
#
but also a little rare.
#
Because now, when I look back,
#
I wonder how much of India
#
Maybe you can see in the cities
#
where you are meeting people of all kinds,
#
you are celebrating all the festivals,
#
you are exposed to different languages
#
and different practices and all that.
#
Was there a sense after you came out in the world,
#
whether it is in Allahabad University,
#
whether it is in Patna later,
#
whether it is in your journey through life
#
That India of our imagination
#
where we are all together
#
and it is syncretic and all that,
#
it doesn't really exist in reality
#
except in a few small pockets.
#
now when you look back,
#
it seems almost very ideal,
#
that mingling is happening,
#
there is the open jail,
#
you are chatting with the bandis, all of that,
#
But the real world is not like that,
#
the real world is quite harsh,
#
especially today it kind of appears to be that way.
#
as you travelled through,
#
then is what you became partly
#
because of that sort of good fortune
#
there was such an atmosphere,
#
like you said, there was a varied sonic
#
environment, there was a sort of
#
a way of living that cultivated
#
the patience within you and
#
that helps you so much in your work today.
#
So do you feel that those circumstances
#
really matter? Do you feel that
#
those circumstances are not so common?
#
maybe I will not want to do that.
#
we are living in today,
#
will not come suddenly from above.
#
it comes out of an egg.
#
It will not come out of
#
a rolling stone of some kind of sand.
#
That is, the possibility
#
that it comes out of an egg
#
a rolling stone of some kind of sand.
#
That is, there was a possibility
#
within it, like we are now
#
But maybe I will not want to see it.
#
At that time, it was not visible.
#
This is the first thing.
#
There would not have been
#
you have not even matured so much.
#
then I went to Allahabad.
#
After coming to Allahabad,
#
I definitely found out for the first time
#
that there are two worlds.
#
There is one world on this side of the railway line
#
and there is another world on the other side of the railway line.
#
So if we go back again,
#
because what do you compare it with?
#
here is the train station
#
and there is the square
#
and there is the civil lines
#
and these are two different cultures
#
and they are told to be seen
#
in each other's juxtaposition.
#
So then you take it back
#
where I do not see any discrimination.
#
I am saying that if I am
#
decorating Janmashtami,
#
then no one has ever told me
#
that this is your name, etc.
#
or that you have to meet
#
and I have never seen this
#
especially after coming to cities.
#
told me in the last part of his speech
#
Babri Masjid demolition,
#
through WhatsApp groups
#
our friend Ravindra Patwal,
#
with a little progressive thought,
#
are argumentative about this.
#
as soon as the WhatsApp group was formed
#
and we started talking about it,
#
we were brutally taken out of there.
#
it would not have happened suddenly.
#
It would have been the same thing
#
that if Juzha comes out,
#
it will come out of the egg.
#
would have come to the surface.
#
It is difficult to say now
#
are two different things
#
But it is also true that
#
which we lived in our childhood,
#
our children are not able to live.
#
for which we have tried our whole life
#
that two different things
#
should not be created in front of each other
#
and that there should not be a place
#
that where are we going?
#
Tell me a little bit about your father
#
because you said that your father
#
He loved books, he loved to read,
#
he loved to immerse in culture.
#
I am also very interested
#
by the three hour conversation that you had with him
#
because I think when you
#
sit down and have a conversation
#
the quality of insights
#
the quality of memories
#
are at a very high level.
#
So how was his journey?
#
How did he look back on his life?
#
What are the regrets that he had?
#
What did he feel about the changing shape of the country
#
he had seen a lot of changes.
#
did he have on shaping the person that you are today?
#
conventionally that trade union
#
because that trade union
#
Someone's casual booking
#
was 6 days a week, 3 days
#
so where would he raise this question?
#
was associated with the Socialist Party.
#
so maybe it was associated
#
with the Socialist Party.
#
There was an affiliated trade union
#
which had its own union office
#
So it was not like someone
#
would talk about the revolution
#
There were small issues
#
or other irregularities.
#
and the other is an organizer.
#
where grievances redressal
#
or in conventional politics
#
speeches and mobilizing people
#
and behind them their organizers
#
there was a long hunger strike
#
which lasted for about 9 days
#
were accepted in the end.
#
their interest in studying
#
the society was changing
#
changed, old friends changed
#
from their homes, families
#
like factories and future
#
whatever was best for them.
#
during the summer holidays
#
published in that magazine
#
and two or three friends thought
#
take out your handwritten letter
#
stepwise with all the editors
#
during the summer holidays
#
who have good handwriting
#
in the whole neighborhood
#
who can write some memoirs
#
some chutkula, some paintings
#
big magazine during the summer holidays
#
right in the middle of the house
#
in which all kinds of vegetables
#
today I think that peanuts
#
used to grow in our house
#
jo baadme main abhi hal ki duna main
#
shayad kain aur bhi hota hoga
#
kele ke patte niche laga ke
#
uske upar kacche kele rag dijiye
#
us badi gade ke bagal me chota gade
#
us badi gade ke bagal me chota gade
#
us badi gade ke bagal me chota gade
#
us badi gade ke bagal me chota gade
#
us badi gade ke bagal me chota gade
#
us badi gade ke bagal me chota gade
#
us badi gade ke bagal me chota gade
#
us badi gade ke bagal me chota gade
#
Because I was in his centre, everyone was called.
#
But I didn't call my father.
#
Because I didn't have the courage to call him.
#
But he got to know about the other people we had called.
#
And they also came there.
#
I remember that inside the club, everyone was sitting in a circle.
#
I mean, the publishing team of the magazine.
#
And the people from the factory.
#
Some of them were closer than their uncles.
#
They didn't have a formal distance.
#
So, by doing this, a lot of people,
#
who were from our neighbourhood, from the factory,
#
had to call everyone one by one.
#
So, my father was also in it.
#
Then he praised that we were seeing that during the summer holidays,
#
some boys come and sit in the garden in the fields.
#
I mean, they were noticing that something was happening in the house.
#
And then this result came out.
#
So, for the first time, I felt that,
#
your father had his own way of praising or encouraging you.
#
Were you particularly proud that he praised you?
#
Yes, because that was a very big thing for us.
#
Because usually, they needed this opportunity
#
that if your marks were less in this monthly exam,
#
I mean, if there was a conversation,
#
it would be because of the scolding and this.
#
It would be your class.
#
I remember that if they were sitting in the front room,
#
they would have to go from the back.
#
There was always this kind of terror.
#
If we were writing something, doing some homework,
#
and if they coughed or sneezed,
#
then the pen would shake.
#
I mean, this kind of thing.
#
So, if you look at today's parenting,
#
it's like a nightmare for us.
#
Father-son relationship.
#
I would say that later, when they used to come,
#
the train used to run on time.
#
So, it didn't feel cold on the way.
#
After two things, the third thing didn't happen in between.
#
I mean, we didn't have anything to share.
#
So, they were sitting on the front floor.
#
So, they put their face in their newspaper.
#
I mean, at least until the time of their retirement.
#
I would say that there was a distance.
#
When did this change? How did it change?
#
I think it changed after retirement.
#
And especially when elder brother's children were born.
#
Then they also thought that maybe they became grandfathers.
#
And then there comes a time when
#
if you are sitting in your pants,
#
then this is a good cloth.
#
So, they thought that they would reach here someday.
#
So, beyond imagination was always there.
#
And what is their reaction to what you did on the radio?
#
What are their feelings?
#
They don't say anything.
#
Beautiful stories. Let's take a break quickly.
#
Let's eat something, drink something and then we will start again.
#
In the course itself, through four webinars spread over four weekends,
#
I share all I know about the craft and practice of clear writing.
#
There are many exercises, much interaction
#
and a lovely and lively community at the end of it.
#
The course costs Rs 10,000 plus GST or about $150.
#
If you are interested, head on over to register at IndiaUncut.com
#
That's IndiaUncut.com slash Clear Writing.
#
Being a good writer doesn't require God-given talent,
#
just a willingness to work hard and a clear idea of what you need to do
#
Welcome back to the scene on The Unseen.
#
I am sitting here with Irfan Saab.
#
He has given me such a rich and beautiful account of Gurma,
#
the place where he grew up, his father.
#
Irfan Saab, you described your father's to-do spirit
#
and you yourself demonstrated that to-do spirit
#
that you took out a magazine over the summer and launched it and all of that.
#
And I want to take you ahead from here to your Alabad University days
#
because even there your to-do spirit was in full force.
#
You went into politics and politics, of course,
#
as you have said in different places,
#
it was very different from today's campus politics.
#
It had no connection with bourgeois politics.
#
It was in the domain of students.
#
And it almost seems in some sense that it was an extension of cultural activity.
#
If you want to express something, you can do it through art
#
or you can do it through that kind of politics and so on.
#
So tell me a little bit about those college years of yours in Alabad.
#
And here I am hoping, sir, that the unseen Irfan that you had promised us,
#
you know, who is different from this genteel, cultured man sitting in front of me,
#
we will see some glimpse of him here.
#
Yes, so after coming to Alabad, I swore that while living in Gurma,
#
I will break my Kaysanova image.
#
And now I have had enough.
#
Now I don't want any other relationship
#
with which my heart breaks again and again
#
or some expectations are put on me.
#
So I had to bid farewell to this romantic era in Alabad.
#
Now we will know how much it could have happened in the future.
#
But after coming to Alabad, one thing was for sure.
#
That is, the hunger for knowledge that grew in my 17-year-old life
#
in the world of Gurma and Churk,
#
cultural activities and reading and writing,
#
and the hunger for knowledge,
#
it has not only increased,
#
but its opportunities have also emerged in a very different way.
#
Now I am thinking that if I had not got the atmosphere
#
of these political-cultural activities in Alabad University,
#
then maybe I would have joined some UPSC rat race.
#
Because after leaving science,
#
as soon as I came to Humanities,
#
my elder brother had a dream that the seniors
#
who prepare for UPSC in his hostel,
#
I should also start doing that.
#
And we did not have such books in the UP board
#
which would equip you for UPSC.
#
So he brought a bundle of NCRT books for us
#
and made me face those seniors
#
so that I could start preparing myself in that direction.
#
But only 3-4 months would have passed
#
that next to our philosophy department,
#
which was the economics department,
#
there was an exhibition of posters.
#
And in that kind of posters in the city,
#
especially on University Road and in those areas
#
where students used to live,
#
there used to be poetry posters.
#
And I had already been exposed to poetry
#
in which I had already heard the names of
#
Sarveshwara De Alsaksena, Dhumil, Nagarjun, Mukti Bhooth.
#
And in these poetry posters,
#
there were small quotations of Bhagat Singh etc.
#
and there were many beautiful illustrations and images.
#
And it was a very colourful experience,
#
And I used to go to them on the road,
#
on the cycle or passing by,
#
on the trees, on the walls,
#
I used to be very interested to see
#
who are these people who make these posters
#
and I wanted to meet them one day.
#
So that day, our class was not there for some reason
#
and while roaming around,
#
I was passing by the economics department
#
and I saw that there were many posters
#
of similar colours, red, yellow, green, blue,
#
So I stood in front of the posters
#
and as you can see in the exhibition,
#
I saw that in the middle,
#
in the heat of the summer,
#
a poster came up from the air.
#
So a man came and hit a nail with a stone.
#
So I thought that these must be the same people.
#
I mean, why would someone hit a nail?
#
If the owners are the same people,
#
who was completely unknown until now,
#
and how can I reach him from the posters on the walls?
#
I will say that that relationship has been formed
#
street singing, mobilization,
#
Then they also had a library,
#
which was more accessible
#
than our university library.
#
The university library was considered big,
#
a book was issued there.
#
So either the librarian
#
didn't have to fulfill his responsibility
#
or he didn't have to go to the rack.
#
So he would say that there is an issue already.
#
the access to the library was in the Churki library.
#
And Shankar brother used to give us
#
not only the books he asked for,
#
but he also used to ask for them when needed,
#
and he used to suggest them himself.
#
you are enrolled in the university,
#
and you are entitled to issue a book,
#
but you didn't have the books.
#
The classes would often get bunked,
#
or the teachers didn't come,
#
Now what to do in such a situation?
#
now you are not even at home.
#
If you go to the hostel room,
#
was very prevalent there.
#
If I look at other students
#
who didn't have this path,
#
or didn't have this dream,
#
or didn't get those things of interest,
#
or didn't have the search,
#
I would say that I was privileged
#
who had a dream of life,
#
the long term repercussions of this,
#
I started to like that world very much.
#
And then I spent a lot of time
#
here you can say what you want,
#
the professor of chemistry,
#
in Allahabad University.
#
it was already decided that
#
one day such and such film will be shown.
#
I was only watching Hindi films
#
a lot of new experience,
#
There were two such films,
#
which were shown there,
#
which our routine cinema
#
from below, because there was
#
no cinematic value in it.
#
preconceived expectations
#
were not being fulfilled.
#
there are not only films
#
there is an alternative cinema,
#
there is a parallel cinema,
#
all this was not understood at all.
#
But then Om Puri was seen,
#
then a world of Shaban Azmi
#
after coming to Allahabad,
#
films of Film Societies,
#
they were all in front of you.
#
I don't know how much I could understand,
#
neither did I know much about world history,
#
and without understanding
#
the history of the world,
#
without understanding those films,
#
there can be possibilities,
#
one story can be said in many ways,
#
experiments are taking place in the world.
#
Until then, Iranian cinema had not come,
#
but all this was French,
#
these films were Japanese.
#
Apart from this, theater.
#
a short play competition
#
an organization called Roop Katha,
#
and it had a whole festival,
#
then I saw the plays of
#
Arun Mukherjee, Shyamanand Jalan,
#
maybe for the first time at this level,
#
you are walking in India,
#
a little exposed from a contemporary theater scene,
#
the play that we used to do,
#
there was a lot of public attraction in it,
#
so its feedback was immediately
#
so acting on the streets,
#
putting up poster exhibitions,
#
and publishing magazines.
#
The magazine that we used to publish
#
very limited resources.
#
I would say we didn't sell it,
#
but it was an excuse to reach out,
#
that you have to reach out
#
to people for organizational expansion,
#
to reach out to the hostels,
#
to the delegacies where the children live,
#
you have to know their life,
#
what circumstances they are living in,
#
what hardships are in front of them,
#
the students who don't have
#
electricity in the delegacies,
#
or who don't have proper
#
four children living together,
#
four have different temperaments,
#
so if one of them is not getting
#
then people used to go to
#
the university lawn and study,
#
in summers it was very easy,
#
because there was a place
#
and no one could stop you,
#
they used to sit in the company garden
#
under the street lights
#
who could be the strength
#
of an organization for us,
#
how we could understand
#
the politics of our country,
#
its economy, its culture,
#
and how to be like a united force
#
being like a united force,
#
the politics of the university.
#
through more cultural activities
#
and it was very fulfilling
#
in which we never thought
#
so the purpose of our life
#
was that all these people
#
who are coming from different places,
#
all of them are bringing
#
with them limited exposure,
#
together like a nation building
#
and how to make their dreams come true
#
for a longer and greater good.
#
Then there are fewer resources
#
that we don't have that much money
#
that we can publish a magazine
#
or that we don't have that much money
#
that we can take our troops to different cities.
#
All of this was a lot of limitations
#
that is, the printing on the triddle,
#
and offset printing had started coming.
#
One thing came in the middle of that,
#
that was electronic typewriter
#
that how to aesthetically
#
take a different typeface
#
and fit it and make a firma
#
and make a page and so on,
#
Then if you have to put some headers
#
you used to make its blocks.
#
So, how do we use electronic typewriter
#
So, with electronic typewriter
#
we came up with a solution
#
on electronic typewriter.
#
Then we can do a certain reduction
#
the result of that half and
#
that how much will it reach 2.5 inches,
#
how much reduction, how much percent more.
#
Because the photocopy machine
#
that was coming at that time,
#
that you could reduce it by 75% or 60%.
#
So, we were doing it with hit and trial.
#
came in your desired column width,
#
we are calling it chip.
#
that this size will be our
#
how to put three columns
#
leaving the gutter space
#
and how to put photographs in the middle.
#
there was another problem, that
#
you had to make a block
#
and put photographs in it. Because we were not
#
going in the offset. We had to
#
do it with letter printing because
#
the money was also less.
#
So, this whole exercise, I remember
#
that under the tree of our hostel,
#
the editorial team used to sit
#
And one magazine was called
#
which was our other friend,
#
Its editor was Sanjay Verma,
#
who used to live in Enjha hostel.
#
Nowadays, income tax commissioner
#
He used to live in Bangalore.
#
We used to publish Hindi magazines.
#
the possible challenges
#
that this time the block
#
Then when the offset came
#
the solution of all your needs.
#
So, they were not giving
#
So, they made some space
#
is to publish something
#
but is aesthetically, economically
#
and used to come out on bromide
#
photographs are printed
#
the space by washing it
#
You went to Type Shutter
#
was hanging in a long strip
#
like the x-rays of the hospital
#
fit it in the page size.
#
was a huge learning experience.
#
The biggest thing was my patience.
#
We don't have that much money
#
but we want that result.
#
So what can you do in that?
#
when everything was printed
#
Textbooks were more profitable for them
#
so they used to give priority to it.
#
At night we used to know
#
that there is no water in the machine.
#
which was made in India
#
that it is geometrically correct.
#
If the blade is not there
#
then the night will be wasted.
#
although it was a fancy ink
#
and make it by ourselves.
#
With a very small brush
#
the light with that opaque ink
#
don't have a staff photographer
#
like Krishn Moravi Krishan
#
they used to voluntarily say
#
that we will give it to you.
#
which will not be printed
#
or they don't want to give it
#
live music or something recorded
#
so all these parallel things
#
drama, magazines, posters
#
I have two follow-up questions
#
and the first follow-up question
#
you mentioned that in Allahabad
#
I decided that I will not remain romantic
#
so you didn't tell in the first half
#
what romantic actions you used to do before
#
there are more adventures in front of you
#
tell me a little bit about this aspect
#
I am 8 years younger than you
#
therefore I went to college and all that later
#
the interactions between boys and girls
#
fraught with mystery like most boys
#
did not know how to talk to girls
#
ideas of romance came from Bollywood
#
that you will basically stalk a girl, woo her
#
but at the same time you were exposed to
#
cinema from around the world
#
radio from around the world, literature from around the world
#
so the imagination was also
#
a little wider than the typical thing
#
so tell me a little bit about
#
see Irfan sir I will not leave you
#
you have to tell something about this unseen Irfan
#
there is nothing colourful
#
which is a core group of friends
#
when you are growing up
#
whether it is a boy or a girl
#
what will you do about nature
#
then you have a sense of fulfillment
#
we do not go into that value judgment
#
your mind's world changes
#
it has its own dynamism
#
when I study in class 2
#
how old is a student in class 2
#
when I will be 7 years old
#
I will still love a girl
#
like if she does not come to school
#
then you will go and look at her window
#
see that she is still sleeping
#
then you will hit a small stone
#
and hit it so that it wakes up
#
no such year has passed
#
and especially after 5th
#
was constantly being made
#
even if he had to hide a lot
#
because in between friends
#
what message will go to the parents
#
dangers were constantly
#
in your romantic affairs
#
and very good things were happening
#
and great praises were being done
#
who used to call for tuition
#
and those who will not do tuition
#
used to give them less numbers
#
and the girls who used to come to their house
#
used to sit on the ground and teach
#
sit and put their hands on their feet
#
all this news used to be
#
when I was told to give a speech
#
which the teachers who were sitting
#
were unexpected for them
#
but those who were not able to say
#
what they were deprived of
#
those who were not able to get
#
very vocal from such experiences
#
there is a Nawab Yusuf Road
#
there was a crush on me
#
although she was my senior
#
but this was a new thing
#
I was getting to know that
#
there would have been a crush
#
after coming to Allahabad
#
because I had to start a new world
#
if a relationship lasted for 6 months
#
and got to another place
#
the fear of humiliation etc
#
so this goes over your nerves
#
that there was something
#
that was going smoothly
#
there was a good dialogue, a good sharing
#
after coming to Allahabad
#
beautiful, my next follow up question
#
on what you were saying earlier
#
you said that in politics
#
there are star campaigners and organizers
#
world that you are describing
#
the cultural world that you are describing in college
#
after listening to your account
#
there can be 2 such characters
#
and you excelled in the organizer
#
but I want to ask you that you used to write
#
were you also a creator
#
were you also performing in plays
#
how was that involvement
#
many of the people who are listening to this
#
they will be familiar with you as
#
that you are speaking to people who achieved things
#
and you are getting them to talk about it
#
but I am also interested in
#
you as an artist yourself
#
when you got drawn into the artistic world
#
it is natural when we are young
#
that we think that I will also write
#
I will also become an actor, I will also do all this
#
so tell me about that aspect of it
#
was that attractive to you
#
I had started writing since school days
#
in the time of 11th and 12th
#
there was a new story movement
#
what stories we used to read
#
the classical Hindi stories
#
you get to read them in Premchand
#
you get to read the stories
#
a new set of writers came
#
were published in the weekly
#
that I liked that writing style
#
brainstorming with friends
#
and other world literatures
#
that I don't want to be
#
that that discouragement
#
I am a little surface level
#
but I don't want to say
#
that the complex subject
#
only because you want to attract eyeballs
#
want to look a little different
#
I also wrote some poems
#
all my poems are printed
#
some of your favorite poems that you remember
#
I didn't have any desire to become a poet
#
and maybe if I had to make a career
#
then I had that much craft
#
print a poetry collection
#
because I was particularly interested
#
later I became a member
#
of the poetry poster core team
#
there was more practice
#
which was written with free hand brush
#
this was the initial thing
#
friends recognized that
#
in the times of movement
#
some people went to jail
#
someone will have to move forward
#
because you didn't have
#
the choice to print 200 posters
#
a team was also with me
#
Amitav's first exhibition
#
before writing his first book
#
practicing as a photographer
#
he was carrying a camera
#
which was seen on the streets
#
and the other side of America
#
of America, the other side
#
was the name of that exhibition
#
photos that he wanted to show
#
he did a big exhibition
#
all the big photo journalists
#
the editors of Times of India
#
creator, less organizer, less curator
#
you are in Allahabad, then you went to Patna
#
tell me more about the journey
#
what is your conception of yourself
#
am I an artist, am I an editor
#
am I going to be a journalist
#
how was that developing
#
who am I, what do I have to do in life
#
how was that playing out
#
that whatever I am doing
#
and from where I started
#
people's life will get better
#
people doesn't mean that
#
they are different from us
#
should move towards a better life
#
I am saying this like a messiah
#
I won't be able to sit with you
#
then I won't be able to sit with you
#
that you or the people with us
#
if I share that with you
#
then you are like Dumbo
#
then you should have some reference
#
the desire to stay alive
#
then should someone call it Aha
#
can I become a good communicator
#
has been said many times
#
and it should go into the heart
#
in the evening, life ends like this
#
for our fellow citizens
#
can we create empathy in our hearts
#
after this market economy
#
are living in inhuman conditions
#
a big population of the country
#
is blooming at its price
#
a prosperity is blooming at its price
#
whether it is middle class intelligence
#
or the whole capitalist
#
should not be placed here
#
it is a very fundamental
#
and which many people like to hear
#
who want to make status
#
so I think that as a communicator
#
I have taken it from myself
#
has incomplete education
#
and is living in darkness
#
is being negatively oriented
#
massive number of people
#
their happiness is blooming
#
when people reach college
#
there is a very creative energy
#
you know many people become rebels without a cause
#
they are still searching for purpose
#
then eventually just get into the normal
#
groove of things laid out for them
#
you will go to IIT, IIM
#
or you will give UPSC exam
#
you will be vice president in city bank
#
and the vast majority of people
#
they get into this groove
#
and they never question that groove
#
to even many of the people who have
#
that creative energy when they are young
#
like you pointed out one of your friends
#
is an income tax officer for example
#
which is fine you know people get on with their
#
lives and they improve their lives
#
in the sense that you could become an entrepreneur
#
because there are problems to solve in the world
#
and entrepreneurship is one way
#
you could become a YouTube creator
#
somebody who might be doing a street play 30 years earlier
#
today you can be a YouTube creator
#
today you can do reels on Instagram
#
today you can do newsletters
#
you can do vlogs you can do a lot
#
so in your case and what happens always
#
is that what happens in the beginning
#
is energy but you don't know where
#
so you know how was that process
#
for you that you are going to college
#
you are getting attracted
#
you are seeing all these posters
#
and it is just something that takes you
#
out of the rut of that everyday life
#
everybody else is living the quiet desperation
#
and then it's full of art
#
it's full of culture it's full of purpose
#
and the way you described it is that
#
your interest is in organizing
#
your interest is in visual arts
#
so you are paying a lot of attention in visual
#
you are doing all these incredible things
#
in between analog and digital
#
nowadays everything seems very easy in digital
#
like what is there in setting a page
#
for example but those days I totally
#
understand that the kind of
#
energy it would have taken the initiative
#
enterprise it would have taken to do things like that
#
tell me about you know when you
#
where did that direction take you
#
eventually you came on the radio and
#
from that journey you came here
#
tell me about those years you know from the mid 90s
#
onwards to you know till
#
the start of Guptagu maybe
#
from this cultural activism
#
it gives me a purpose in my life
#
I am not doing any such work
#
or I have not done it yet
#
which is not part of my hobby
#
which does not give me a sense of fulfillment
#
that is what I am doing
#
that is what I am ensuring my survival
#
and sometimes it does not
#
that the best thing about your show
#
is that you let your guest speak
#
should I take this compliment
#
with this hidden promise
#
that I will introduce my audience
#
so what am I doing new in this
#
and even though there is one viewer
#
there is only one audience
#
that today I will introduce you
#
so I will have to fulfill the promise
#
fellow professionals were
#
especially in television
#
they were carrying a special agenda
#
if you see an interview
#
in which the anchor hardly appears
#
that if I want to wind up
#
the show for 24 minutes
#
because of time limitation
#
then maybe I opened the show
#
this will be a scary experience
#
for any television anchor
#
that why didn't he come in the middle
#
why didn't his nods come
#
why didn't his interventions come
#
that you surround the screen space
#
and only then you are able to do it
#
when you have a larger view
#
that you are doing the first and last
#
because until you don't interrupt
#
how will your video editor
#
you push your organization
#
you think that by trivializing
#
your footfall will increase
#
or you will get an attraction
#
you are getting to know
#
that you talked to many people
#
you are not recording it
#
but somewhere in your memory
#
have a deep interest in them
#
that especially in northern India
#
how their psychological
#
pattern, their thoughts
#
things I was doing because
#
I will become an FM radio
#
jock and all these things
#
I think it was a journey
#
where I am standing now
#
what the next journey will be
#
people of our own society
#
and they are our own people
#
with whom we have to speak
#
with whom we have to communicate
#
with whom we have to share
#
when you talked about radio
#
which is very powerful for me
#
which kind of also explains
#
what you were just saying that you don't interrupt
#
you let your listener take the space
#
and one reason for that obviously is
#
that you are improving your discourse
#
that you are getting the ego
#
out of it, there is this great quote
#
I love by Stephen Covey
#
when he says that too many of us listen to respond
#
we don't listen to understand
#
so we have to remove the ego
#
and that's something I share with you
#
but there is another quality that comes out
#
and I have to say I would not have
#
unfortunately I would not have done
#
what you did and I am really
#
when you used to dial in radio
#
and the typical way of doing that is
#
you don't want that person to talk for too long
#
you have to go to the song
#
and even my approach there would have been
#
that you do the best show you can
#
within those limitations
#
and after that you unwind
#
you told a story that once a call came
#
and you wanted to speak more to the person
#
because they didn't get time to talk
#
and after the show was over
#
and your professional obligation is over
#
you called that person, his son picked it up
#
and was rude to you and you realized this is an elderly gentleman
#
who lives in a different room
#
and you went to that person's house
#
this deeply moving because
#
I see this as a characteristic
#
this is how a person is
#
not only like one characteristic
#
and I would be nothing without is
#
but this is another characteristic
#
the urge for connection
#
which I find really beautiful and this also
#
explains why later on in life
#
10 years later, 15 years later
#
if you are letting someone speak
#
and letting someone take the camera
#
professional dharma that I have called this person
#
to the show and I must give them this platform
#
and let them speak which is of course there
#
this sense of empathy and connection
#
and all of that and this is a quality
#
I don't think you can inculcate this
#
or be intentional about it
#
tell me a little bit about this
#
that if I ask you to think about it
#
was there always this sense of empathy
#
in an abstract sense that oh the poor
#
are suffering, I care about them
#
but this sense of empathy of actually
#
actually picking up the phone after the show is over
#
going to somebody's house, talking to them
#
maybe talking to the son who was rude to you
#
to understand him etc etc
#
tell me a little bit about this characteristic of yours
#
that were you always like this
#
or is this something you cultivated in yourself
#
because you felt this is who
#
actually I would rather admire you
#
because you took me on a very right place
#
I was expecting this question
#
so you did it very wonderfully
#
maybe I got this from my mother
#
something like this happened
#
that there was a fight between two people
#
that this was happening
#
but my mother was crying here
#
but my mother was hitting him
#
was very worried and crying
#
I resist a lot that I should not cry
#
there are some occasions in my shows
#
in which you feel that I have made
#
a very stony and dead face
#
there are such occasions
#
in which I have to develop a mechanism
#
have made an objectivity
#
I should not become a party
#
that is a little challenging
#
very interesting in people's lives
#
it will never be of any use to me
#
he does not open any sweet in my life
#
and does not solve any of my purposes
#
and every living person has a history with him
#
I had already seen the Pita film
#
Bimal Bhagat was an extraordinary actor
#
and we do not talk about him
#
Pita, maybe there is only one part of him on YouTube
#
he used to do English theatre in Bengal
#
he did one or two films
#
he had some mental illness
#
dictated an autobiography
#
and his wife Nikki Bhagat
#
that book is called Stage Whisper
#
these days I was reading
#
by Shamsur Rahman Farooqi
#
and those days, by chance
#
Stage Whisper was also in my hand
#
only take information about him
#
then your purpose is not solved
#
bring down the wall of alienation
#
and make some expectations from them
#
human history is not just 22 years
#
when I was going to a village
#
practitioner, his career
#
eight generations before
#
eight generations before
#
after eight generations
#
if that had not happened
#
Vimal Bhagat would not be that kind of a person
#
now I will not see Vimal Bhagat
#
an actor from an English theater in Bengal on the stage
#
that there is a memory recall in Dilip Kumar's dialogue delivery.
#
This is a very, very important thing.
#
It may be that today I will ask Mahesh ji again,
#
and he will say that I forgot what I was saying.
#
Or when I am saying, I will not tell you properly
#
what the recall of this memory means.
#
But when you are doing something,
#
which Naseer Sahib just said in conversation with me,
#
that if any of his aunt's relatives were not like that,
#
then in that character,
#
all that gives you something of this whole journey.
#
This is the first thing.
#
That is why a professional like me,
#
for me, a subject can also be such that
#
he is sitting in front of me and
#
the program of 24 minutes has to be done.
#
And I did this work in the middle of action and cut,
#
The other way is that I do this work
#
in a slightly organic way.
#
Because this opportunity will not come to me again.
#
And then I will tell myself what you did.
#
It will be necessary for me to know this person.
#
And this person will not always be in the case of celebrity,
#
that there is no known celebrity achiever.
#
That person who is writing me a letter,
#
when we used to publish magazines,
#
we used to get letters from the dark.
#
I had the responsibility to edit and publish these letters.
#
There was no letter that I would not give back.
#
Let's go back a little.
#
When I was listening to the radio in school days,
#
a program was over and it was said that
#
if you want, you can write your opinion on this paper.
#
So I used to write and he used to send his opinion.
#
For this, I had a postcard,
#
Now you see that there is effort in this.
#
First of all, one of my intentions is
#
that after listening to this program,
#
I will send a feedback.
#
For the feedback, I spent some time for myself.
#
I took a pen and paper and wrote on it.
#
whatever I wrote, I wrote some of my thoughts in it.
#
Now I went to the post office.
#
There I put an ex-payment ticket and put it in.
#
This whole thing happened.
#
If you had not said it like this,
#
then tell me how it felt.
#
If you stand for the fact that
#
yes, you had asked for feedback,
#
then yes, we sent the feedback.
#
Then reciprocating is also your job.
#
Did you get the feedback?
#
And you tell me whether it is good or bad,
#
or whatever, incorporate it.
#
Sometimes it used to be a Saturday show.
#
After the Saturday show,
#
I felt that now I will write and send it tomorrow.
#
On Sunday, the post office is closed.
#
Then I started keeping a lot of postcards with me.
#
Even if it is a Sunday,
#
whenever I feel like it,
#
I will write a postcard or an online letter
#
and send feedback on any program or magazine.
#
a person is calling in a radio show.
#
There are two types of callers.
#
This is the currency radio programming.
#
It does not happen now.
#
Since then, all these advanced tools have come.
#
WhatsApp, messaging and email.
#
But before that, people used to write letters
#
So when a person calls a radio show,
#
it means that he has already decided
#
For that, as soon as you opened the lines,
#
you told me that these four numbers are working.
#
These are the numbers of the studio.
#
Out of the four numbers,
#
only one number will write on the paper.
#
Now see, the effort has begun.
#
His involvement has begun.
#
Now you can't leave him behind.
#
He has become a collaborator in your work.
#
He has become a part of your program,
#
So you can't take him lightly.
#
You have to admire this gesture.
#
If he is such a person,
#
who just wants to hear their name,
#
As a broadcaster, as a radio joker,
#
we get an idea of who is like a hunter
#
who just wants to hear their name
#
or want to share something.
#
I am talking about the program
#
in which we used to play vintage music.
#
the listener's profile gets separated.
#
And such people who used to cry
#
they used to talk about their homes,
#
as if you are their secret.
#
their heart will be lightened.
#
So I think that every person
#
that he wants to meet me.
#
that someone messages me
#
on Twitter or Messenger
#
who has become so arrogant
#
that I will not talk to anyone?
#
at what level is a person?
#
What will you hear about him
#
and these things have happened.
#
whether they are mentally abhorrent people
#
or some other mental illness
#
because there are very fine lines.
#
at what moment a person was asking
#
and he did not do anything wrong.
#
This is a broader question
#
when you are in such an activity
#
is affecting a person's life,
#
with your hands crossed
#
to meet you or want to say something.
#
Your owness comes on you.
#
If you have awakened this dream
#
that he should live two more days
#
and he has this question in his heart
#
that why he should live, then you will have to answer.
#
So, these are the issues
#
come out of yourself first.
#
the way you meet others,
#
actually, you are meeting yourself.
#
and you meet somewhere,
#
meet a little, save a little.
#
This is a strange relationship
#
I may not be able to afford
#
that I cannot take a selfie with you.
#
that you were talking about. In 1994, I was 20 years old.
#
I graduated from Ferguson College, Pune
#
and came to Delhi for a job.
#
I was feeling very lonely.
#
So, I was listening to the radio
#
and my taste is towards
#
alternative rock music.
#
It is a little wider now.
#
and I forget the name of the show
#
and I forget the name of the jockey.
#
But he played a song from an artist I did not expect to hear on radio.
#
because I thought I must be the only person in India
#
who is used to this because it is so unusual.
#
So, I wrote a postcard to that person
#
saying thank you for playing this. You made my day.
#
And why don't you play some Lou Reed also.
#
So, he didn't reply to that.
#
But in the next episode of that show,
#
he started with Walk on the Wild Side
#
And I just felt so touched.
#
And it is that kind of moment which tells you
#
that you are not alone in the world.
#
There is that connection.
#
But also, I am thinking
#
what writing an actual letter means.
#
Today, writing a letter is nothing.
#
You open an email. You type something.
#
Write, you know, see you at 4x.
#
And that is your letter.
#
But in our times, you are writing
#
a postcard or an inland letter.
#
It requires an effort on your part.
#
The very act of writing
#
communicates that you care for this person
#
because you are giving them time and attention.
#
You are writing a letter. You are going and posting it.
#
That is the whole process.
#
And there is that connection then between
#
the writer and the receiver.
#
And it is a beautiful thing.
#
It is again that thing, you are not alone in this world.
#
I feel that that connection has changed.
#
Today, I would say that
#
communication is cheap.
#
In a sense, the notion of connection
#
has sort of been cheapened in the sense
#
that anyone can send an email.
#
Anyone can reply to a tweet.
#
Anyone can leave a YouTube comment.
#
And what that means is that it becomes
#
physically impossible to reply
#
to everyone. It is not feasible.
#
Especially on places like Twitter,
#
some people might write in bad faith
#
and you don't really want to engage also
#
with them. So it becomes physically
#
But at the same time, today
#
one thing is possible which was not then.
#
that is intimacy at scale.
#
explain what I mean and you can give me
#
Earlier, people who were stars
#
they were much larger than life.
#
So you made a temple for Amitabh Bachchan
#
And those were your stars. And when you
#
achieved any kind of intimate connection
#
it was a very one on one thing.
#
A few people are listening to your show, they call you
#
or they write in and you achieve something.
#
like podcasting is incredibly intimate
#
in that it is a voice in your head.
#
And you know, many people
#
have told me that they listen to me talk with
#
someone and they will feel
#
that they are sitting together in
#
a drawing room. One person
#
once gave a feedback that
#
when I was listening to your podcast, at one point I
#
interrupted. You know that I felt
#
so much a part of the experience.
#
And I think that is a kind of magic
#
that I am sure you have, I am 100%
#
sure that you have also experienced
#
and felt it and people feel that strongly
#
for what you do and the
#
conversations you have. But there is
#
also the dilemma that actual reaching
#
out in person you can't do. The intimacy
#
has to be at scale. You can
#
talk to every listener as if
#
that person is part of your life. But you
#
can't actually talk to any listener individually.
#
So these are just my sort of
#
I am thinking aloud based on what you
#
said. So what are your thoughts? Yes, it's fine.
#
What I mean to say is not that
#
I will reciprocate all the comments
#
This is not what I mean to say.
#
I have this discretionary
#
in that show I got 14 calls
#
from which I reached one person's home.
#
It doesn't mean that I did anything wrong with Tera.
#
with whom I might not have reached
#
He was not even part of my duty.
#
The person with whom I reached
#
I reached to many other people
#
with whom I became like family.
#
after their death or illness
#
their second generation
#
Holi, Diwali, Dashara or
#
That connection didn't break.
#
It is necessary to do this.
#
The answer to this question
#
that you might not get next week
#
what I meant to say was
#
that today you have other ways
#
with which you can reciprocate.
#
You don't need to physically go and meet.
#
you understand the intention
#
that this is a good idea.
#
that you wanted to take.
#
You accepted the crux of this message.
#
but actually part of the reason is
#
that you are trying not to be emotional
#
And this keeps happening to me.
#
I did a recent episode with Ranjit Hoskote
#
and at one point I mentioned
#
Dilip Chitre's poem, Father Returning Home
#
and I didn't read it out because I knew I would cry.
#
So, I didn't read it out for that reason.
#
But mine is an audio medium.
#
So, there are times when I have teared up,
#
we make ourselves vulnerable
#
and that can kind of happen.
#
Yours is a video medium where I guess it is much harder
#
because the camera is actually on you.
#
Like I remember in 2013
#
you interviewed a Raghuveer Yadav
#
and at the end he starts singing.
#
And maybe I am mistaken but I felt that
#
when the camera panned on you
#
that you were trying really hard to control your emotions.
#
It was a very moving song
#
and I thought that Irfan ji is feeling what I am feeling
#
but I can sit here and I can tear up
#
and he is on camera, he is kind of stony.
#
one kind of balance that
#
you can maintain, that you have to maintain
#
a professional conversation and a professional setting
#
making a connection with the man
#
and you have to think about, or a woman
#
and thinking about how far do you take
#
that human connection and how far
#
do you let yourself sink in this.
#
And equally I think another balance
#
for yourself must be on your mind
#
not so much now because now
#
you can go long form, you can do longer
#
Rajya Sabha T.V. when we used to talk for 24 minutes
#
then there is also that balance
#
to maintain that I have a format
#
I can talk to this person for 5 hours
#
that I can talk about so many things.
#
tell me a little bit about these two balances.
#
One is about that human connection
#
throw away the filter and you can just
#
you know, both of you can be who you are
#
and the cameras don't matter
#
but the cameras are there
#
so they do matter. And also
#
you know the trade off between what the format is
#
want to take the conversation. Exactly.
#
who spent 40-50 years of his life
#
in a particular profession
#
unless he doesn't get tired
#
unless he doesn't get annoyed
#
he doesn't share his emotions
#
or whatever experiences he doesn't share
#
this is his own choice.
#
in this matter I am very grateful to YouTube
#
in the beginning when we started this show
#
in front of us, one with Madhi Shankar Rehiyar
#
it was difficult for them to cut
#
that you can cut it and give it
#
for 24 minutes, 29 minutes
#
in Rajsabha TV we could give it for 29 minutes
#
because there was no ad there
#
and we could give it till 29.30
#
the next show is coming
#
so we used to give a 30 second promo
#
the last show got spilled over
#
so it was important for time management
#
to give it till 29 minutes
#
but in 29 minutes format
#
is getting a little warm
#
you have reached the 15th year
#
that you have reached the 29th minute
#
so it was very difficult
#
so in the beginning you will see that they are very disjointed
#
even I was not thinking
#
that this could be the way
#
that I will give a 29 minute telecast
#
and I will put it on YouTube
#
it started a little late
#
especially after Gulzar came
#
because they were connected
#
it would look like a jerk
#
and the same was the case with Madhya Shankar Iyer
#
with Madhya Shankar Iyer
#
you must have seen that people have different
#
there are people who punctuate well
#
and you can easily do seamless editing
#
a dot pause or half pause
#
something like that is found
#
where they breathe in breathe out
#
but Madhya Shankar Iyer
#
and there are many such people
#
who make stories like jalebi
#
like in my conversation
#
you will get less space to cut
#
so I didn't notice this particular aspect
#
we had to cut it because
#
I had a 29 minute telecast
#
what we were talking about
#
we were talking about the format
#
because there is a limitation of 24 minutes
#
this solution was found
#
that there will be a telecast version
#
and one will be complete
#
and one will be unedited
#
how much time the guest has
#
now what was the other problem
#
earlier we used to record
#
and it had a certain length
#
we were running out of tape
#
so we had to stop talking
#
and our office was in Delhi
#
we couldn't even order tape from here
#
then you get your favorite camera team
#
this happened to me later
#
later my favorite camera team
#
stayed with me for a long time
#
to run this format to the level of satisfaction
#
if you have such a camera man
#
who will watch the clock according to the shift
#
so if you are working outside the shift
#
then he will do it unconsciously
#
on the energy level set
#
then you will also think that
#
you are working with the team
#
and the team will go back and work the next day
#
and if you upset him etc
#
are associated with him
#
and everything is favorable
#
i.e. you have a technical team
#
now you don't need tape
#
you have digital storage
#
so you can do unlimited
#
although in the cameras
#
where this memory card was installed
#
so we used to come back at night
#
and copy the cards in the hotel room
#
that if you copied the source
#
there is also a problem
#
because the data is coming
#
then it will get glitched
#
and it is very difficult to restore it
#
me and all my colleagues
#
otherwise apart from duty hours
#
those who are sitting in the office
#
we are shooting for 12-12 hours
#
after that we are transferring
#
the data for the next 8 hours
#
sleeping for 2-3 hours and then running for the next shift
#
in pomeo you know about the traffic
#
then you keep running from here to there
#
who agrees with your dream
#
and obviously this organization
#
never told me on Rajaswaba TV
#
that why did you do this guest
#
and why didn't you do this
#
if you look at the playlist
#
then you will find a lot of people
#
what you were saying a while ago
#
the thing that makes a temple of stars
#
the format of this conversation
#
then sell the product from that deity
#
objectification of the stars
#
and then you don't want to
#
which is done by humans
#
it will definitely work
#
in which island you invested
#
an inspiration for people
#
then we can also do this
#
could have been done on the parliament TV
#
it had to happen through me
#
that how people really think
#
and people don't become
#
which maybe our other fellow citizens
#
can fix with their children
#
entertainment journalism or
#
this is the whole practice
#
and from where they are
#
they see the world from a different angle
#
and you have to see like this
#
and their fertilization
#
that when you are sitting with someone
#
you want to have a freewheeling
#
that there should not be any filters
#
I think what will often happen to stars
#
especially if you are promoting a film
#
and you have lamented many times before
#
and I completely share the lament
#
that so much of our modern media has become
#
to promote the film, to promote the actor
#
and what is the problem in that
#
after a certain point in time
#
the actor basically has a tape recorder
#
in her head and everything is a sound bite
#
and it's just coming out and everything is prepared
#
one of the most important things for me
#
is that whatever is the tape of the sound bites
#
and of course my tactical way
#
of doing that is I will talk about someone's childhood
#
I will talk about the parents, I will try to
#
get them to speak about something they have never spoken
#
about before so we can enter
#
that intimate space but I have the advantage
#
that I give myself unlimited time
#
I also have the advantage
#
that I can choose my guess
#
I don't call politicians because they will always
#
they will never open up
#
have that person to person
#
human to human conversation that happens
#
so I want to ask you about how
#
you have sort of evolved
#
your style like what was your journey
#
of having these conversations like
#
because initially what happens is that
#
as a formal interview it is basically
#
a list of questions and
#
when I taught my podcasting course I looked at
#
different conversation podcasts across
#
the world and I looked at all the different
#
styles and one extreme is you come with
#
ten questions and one by one you ask them
#
and you are not digressing and the other
#
extreme which is really what I try to do
#
is that I will go anywhere where the conversation
#
takes me I have a broad set of themes
#
but I will go anywhere and I have the advantage
#
but you know how did your
#
approach to what that evolved because initially
#
when you are doing it for 24 minutes
#
it feels like a fixed format even the
#
guest is in that frame of mind when
#
I will give the answer, I will leave
#
I will ask about the new film
#
everything is in tape recorder
#
past this how do you like what are your learnings
#
so I don't want to ask something
#
very specific like this element alone
#
of conversation how did you
#
how did you evolve how did you think about
#
this is how I loosen the person up
#
kind of questions to ask at this moment
#
you know when is it okay to interrupt
#
and of course my personal answer to that is basically
#
I am very keen on learning about
#
you know your learnings on this
#
first understand that this
#
29 minute format thing I told you
#
very quickly that it is over
#
rough cut was unlimited
#
if the guest generally has the habit
#
because it is an agenda driven
#
okay when the Parmanu film comes
#
then John Abraham will be asked about
#
obviously in that ecosystem
#
they become their habit
#
secretary or managers or gatekeepers
#
they will see which channel
#
so what will be the promotion
#
they will ask these four questions in their minds
#
in this matter such people
#
who really have me Roshan Seth
#
or Kulbhushan Kharbanda
#
because I kept following them
#
and they kept telling me
#
that I have not done any
#
film in 20 years, what will I tell you
#
and I could not tell them
#
I told them but they could not understand
#
that I do not have to ask
#
their expectation is that
#
something must have happened
#
must have given five kids, this must be asking
#
this time you will not fight the yellow vote
#
that everyone asks and wants an answer
#
there will be some talks
#
there will be no order of questions
#
we send the questions but the question
#
is not necessary to be asked in this order
#
out of these 12 questions
#
3 questions are not asked
#
but 5 new questions are asked
#
but whatever we can assure you
#
that we will not trivialize you
#
we will not place you out of the context
#
we will not put you below the belt
#
we will not ask unnecessary questions
#
this is our responsibility
#
we can take this responsibility because
#
so we could have made this promise
#
because it is a parliament TV channel
#
society or gives it a direction
#
so we will keep this in mind
#
and anything that will be
#
unparliamentary quote unquote
#
which is a common understanding
#
it will be a clean content
#
we want to understand this
#
start getting the vibes
#
where the conversation has reached
#
that this thing will be asked
#
because if the conversation
#
then some dots are missing
#
some habits are also there
#
that in the questions you are asking
#
understood the nuanced nature
#
actually it is not happening
#
the surface of the question
#
and its nuanced substance
#
but what we are talking about
#
where there was compulsion
#
dissatisfying experience
#
in the case of conversation
#
then you will listen to it
#
in the end you will say wow
#
my own musical appreciation
#
even though I do not sing
#
what a musical presentation
#
to present a good conversational
#
there will be many other factors
#
confused in your thoughts
#
questions asked in the previous interviews
#
once again to understand
#
all these things are mapped
#
that there are some things
#
will say in every interview
#
anything out of the world
#
what he is saying in the last 20 years
#
like a personal vindictive
#
but there are such people
#
you try to explore them
#
take the clue from those instances
#
and move their conversation forward
#
and they will feel that last time
#
it was a successful interview and this time it was a success
#
here as a conversationist
#
you have to build trust
#
what you are going to ask
#
I have seen that people
#
try to listen to what will be asked in the conversation
#
and for them it is a question of pride
#
they have been made part of this playlist
#
the person whose name is Irfan
#
that he will listen to us
#
in the conversation many times people cry
#
that they know this mechanism
#
but still they are humans
#
and they are not acting
#
where there is an emotional juncture
#
and that happens only when
#
they have this trust that the person
#
with whom they are sharing their heart
#
they will listen to it with the same empathy
#
and that empathy I did not promise
#
and with the experiences of the people
#
they must have seen many people like me
#
must have seen people from the media
#
that yes, this is the person
#
with whom this thing can be said
#
what you have done in today's history
#
the 75th year of independence
#
like a national memory project
#
an agency should be needed
#
it is not necessary that they
#
have received a Padma award
#
I am not saying that the award
#
very unique life experiences
#
they will die with themselves
#
means some people who are alive
#
there was an issue of coherence
#
I will take the name of Ibrahim Al Qazi
#
they did not have such a long interview
#
they did not even remember
#
that the Prime Minister of the country was Nehru
#
he taught Naseeruddin Shah
#
they did not even remember the names of these people
#
after reaching such a vegetating state
#
record someone's memory
#
made an approach for posterity
#
it needs to be done on war footing
#
it needs to put ample money in it
#
even if the government does
#
I do not know who will do
#
and there is a film institute in Pune
#
where your father worked
#
how many people came and went
#
had its own audio-visual infrastructure
#
I am talking about the recent past
#
would have reached great heights
#
6-6 hours of recordings
#
my salary is being paid
#
if you are working with this approach
#
or running an institution
#
there is no infrastructure
#
if I look at my playlist
#
the work that National School of Drama
#
should have done, I have done
#
is being done from the beginning
#
that if someone does not go far
#
recording their stories
#
a digital archive has been created
#
an aspirant in the world
#
whatever he wants to know
#
the alumni of National School of Drama
#
what will a single person do
#
in this 130-140 crore population
#
and we are only talking about Hindi
#
the topic was something else
#
because I think the best moments
#
of the show come when people get lost
#
and I want to double click on this
#
I often tell my writing students
#
and this is common advice
#
that journaling is very important
#
because if we write every day
#
we are even creating a new person within us
#
and part of the reason we do this
#
is because we are examining
#
and amplifying our memories
#
and I think that we can extend this
#
what you are eloquently saying
#
the National Memory Project
#
I think there is something to this because
#
to have that body of work
#
where all those memories
#
are preserved and it's like a living history
#
and one way of looking at it is
#
today because of technology anybody can do this
#
talking to my writing students on our whatsapp group
#
and encouraging people to just go with a recorder
#
and sit with their parents for 3 hours
#
and take down their lives
#
and what you are doing is you are not only preserving that memory
#
you are also increasing your parents
#
engagement with their past
#
and bringing things alive for them
#
and you are deepening your connection with them
#
and if it can happen at the level of a family
#
then it can happen at the level of a society
#
so whoever is listening to this
#
I will request them that
#
if you want this to happen please reach out to Irfan
#
please beg him to lead this project
#
please fund this project
#
certainly it would be immense
#
and we all need it and I think it has to come from
#
by people within society
#
and it's not something we should expect from the state
#
sort of the art of interviewing
#
art of conversations rather
#
and all the things we learnt
#
and another of the things that really fascinated me
#
when it comes to locations you have shown a lot of flexibility
#
guests will come to the studio and recording will be done
#
you would go to their houses
#
and you would think of it as a feature not a bug
#
in their personal space they will talk differently
#
and you also get a glimpse of their life
#
you have shown some slides in a TEDx talk
#
that you have taken inside people's house
#
and I found that very fascinating
#
like if you had a thousand of them I would sit and
#
I have even done a recent three and a half audio thing
#
in between the table and I found that fantastic
#
some people will complain that
#
there is no visual, there is so much white noise in the sound
#
there is a conversation
#
which would not have existed
#
and now it exists and we should all be grateful
#
so tell me a little bit about how you arrived
#
does that change the way that they interact with you
#
do they get in a different state of mind
#
it helps, it helps a lot
#
are usually of the same kind
#
of lighting conditions and set
#
separate set for your show
#
which could have been done
#
they didn't come separately
#
or they didn't negotiate traffic
#
and they are worried that we couldn't reach
#
this also affects the conversation
#
and you don't have any problem
#
in inviting me to your house
#
you should invite me to your house
#
otherwise you can go to
#
we have gone for our work
#
you know that this is your house
#
we get some help in research
#
from going to your house
#
the decor of your house
#
I am saying a small thing
#
we need to use your washroom
#
that a new soap was opened
#
is it a good thing or a bad thing?
#
again I will not go into judgment
#
something about a person
#
the house keeping staff
#
there is a sign of our coming
#
and there are many such things
#
for the sake of their privacy
#
you can sense a different world
#
you may not know in the studio
#
like I can say about Anwar
#
and the whole recording
#
if you have not seen it
#
I did not produce for many weeks
#
there are many such things
#
the more you go to the house
#
the more colors you get
#
as I said in a TED talk
#
my first meeting with Pankaj Tripathi
#
we wanted the light to come from there
#
there was a lake or pond
#
from which the light was reflected
#
so we needed two bedsheets
#
so how Mr. Dula and Pankaj
#
he understood us like a member of his family
#
understood the needs and problems of the technical team
#
there is a bond of another level
#
I hope you have 7-8 more hours
#
long before I was a podcaster
#
in fact chances are that many of you
#
first heard of me because of my blog
#
which was active between 2003 and 2009
#
and became somewhat popular at the time
#
I loved the freedom the form gave me
#
and I feel I was shaped by it
#
I exercised my writing muscle every day
#
and was forced to think about many different things
#
well that phase in my life ended
#
and now it is time to revive it
#
I have started the India Uncut newsletter
#
at indiancut.substack.com
#
where I will write regularly
#
about whatever catches my fancy
#
I will write about some of the themes
#
I cover in this podcast
#
so please do head on over to indiancut.substack.com
#
once you sign up each new instalment that I write
#
will land up in your email inbox
#
you don't need to go anywhere
#
so subscribe now for free
#
the India Uncut newsletter
#
at indiancut.substack.com
#
welcome back to the scene in the unseen
#
I am still continuing my conversation with Irfan
#
he has learned patience in his childhood
#
and it takes patience to come in my show
#
if you want something like the memory project
#
please get in touch with Irfan
#
but then during the break
#
while we were having coffee
#
Irfan said that actually
#
he is already working on a project
#
I would request you please tell us about it
#
so whoever is listening
#
then we can do something
#
and so called achievers
#
found in one or the other playlist
#
and they will always be found
#
have a long conversation
#
like you do with Gulzar
#
founders of our company
#
have importance in our lives
#
there are certain complications
#
they are losing their coherence
#
that they have some special feel
#
that they are not only in a
#
are the next generation
#
or other company stakeholders
#
their present day anxieties
#
let someone hear all these things
#
and you have heard from many people
#
and people feel so connected with you
#
talk to our grandfather
#
it will not be like an aberration
#
after all this is also a story
#
that brings the truth of a society
#
and achieved his dreams
#
deprived of many things
#
arrived on certain place
#
so this story is also in itself
#
so why should we always
#
work with a special understanding
#
of celebrities or achievers
#
stories are spread all around us
#
we should also take out
#
that this was a good decision
#
that I have floated a forum
#
with the name of memory
#
with a little consistency
#
that if I want to travel
#
be recorded for posterity
#
can't I do it just for this
#
because I don't have money
#
or to turn this mission
#
these financial constraints
#
these financial constraints
#
they are coming on my way
#
but I am pretty much sure
#
this is a very good time
#
until they have coherence in their memory
#
and they want to tell me
#
maybe they don't want to tell
#
and they want to ask me
#
an objectivity question
#
explore them and keep them in front of us
#
in their personal living space
#
according to their ease
#
they want to record these stories
#
they want to keep them forever
#
those who are interested
#
the people who are affluently rich
#
and they can afford anything
#
but they are not giving
#
sense of special feeling to their elders
#
in which we give a conversation
#
a free flowing heart to heart
#
which can be related to
#
some audio-narrated photographs
#
in which at the age of 20
#
if they go to California
#
their first meeting will be
#
which will shine in their eyes
#
and which will fill that story
#
which has been closed for years
#
whereas every photograph has
#
of more than 500 episodes
#
in which those who think
#
that there is some value in it
#
and it is the work of nation building
#
then they will be welcome
#
to come for our hand holding
#
how do they get in touch with you?
#
I will look it from the show
#
so to get back to our conversation
#
because I want to capture your story
#
you are capturing the stories of the whole country
#
you have been very generous
#
in the many hours you spent with me today
#
I want to continue down that line
#
of understanding your craft
#
and my next question is
#
really about how you do your research
#
because in this I can see
#
one is when you are interviewing
#
celebrities, stars who like you say
#
are there on every playlist automatically
#
the typical questions in fact I have noticed with you
#
you never ask the typical questions
#
which are like cookie cutter
#
you go to different areas
#
approach towards researching
#
which approach is good for which person
#
if your guest happens to be
#
very young like you did an excellent interview
#
with the young actor and singer Adarsh Gaurav also
#
and I was watching that with interest
#
because I was thinking this is such a young person
#
lived experience is so less
#
but you did so beautifully well there
#
so sometimes you get a guest where
#
you know you could do a 10 hour episode
#
because lived experience is so rich
#
even if we talk for 20-30 hours
#
but there are younger people
#
who don't have that much lived experience
#
and you are wondering how do I make it work
#
so tell me about the kind of dilemmas
#
based on the research and the kind of decisions
#
that how should the question be asked
#
which direction should I take etc.
#
Before I answer this question
#
I would like to talk about the learnings
#
that we were talking about
#
so one learning that I would like to tell
#
you should never believe
#
and I will make his interview
#
as soon as he comes out
#
and I came out very soon
#
that I have come to him
#
that he called me to him
#
of my viewers aspiration
#
when I am sitting in front of my guest
#
what he would like to know from this guest
#
keep your horizon wider
#
will be made from there
#
these two things need to be
#
happens means if your intention
#
that this is going to be a hit interview
#
a very pious purpose is that
#
you have a repository of
#
what can you take from it, it is a sea
#
if you take even a drop from it
#
then you understand that your meditation
#
if you keep this approach
#
that after the interview is over
#
then you reach this result
#
if you say that it was not fun
#
your guest was not living to give you fun
#
and you have found some meat in his work
#
that from which methods
#
that what do you actually want to do
#
three major stakeholders in this chemistry
#
one you, one your guest
#
this is your responsibility
#
then you have to understand
#
there are many aspects of preparation
#
and it is not a copy book
#
one answer will work on one thing
#
has a temperamental issue
#
that he will be in a hurry
#
that you have not read anything of mine
#
that is going to be built
#
it will turn into a very negative energy
#
according to your expectations
#
there will be a very tight rope
#
on which you and those two people
#
that why are you doing this
#
if you do it for clickbait
#
then there is always room
#
for you to slip from there
#
because your guiding factor
#
after all when you leave the studio
#
then you will find a person
#
or you did not ask this question
#
obviously there will be many questions
#
your intention is clear
#
that whatever you are doing
#
to the future generations
#
to the aspirants of this particular field
#
people of the world of cinema and gloss
#
most watched videos are of cinema and
#
there are not only people of cinema and theater
#
there are ornithologists,
#
there are people of administration,
#
I also talked to people of politics
#
but then the name of that series is
#
in which the cinema is based
#
in the memories of parliamentarians
#
they could only make 13 episodes
#
in which the known leaders
#
so if we leave the politics sector
#
any softer aspect of life
#
there are budding people,
#
meaning from a guest of 9-10 years
#
you can see in our playlist
#
people of different fields
#
you have to keep all those references in mind
#
of different professional practices
#
and how they evolved in indian conditions
#
you have to make a part of your research
#
and you have to sound like an insider
#
it should not seem like
#
you are talking to a classical musician
#
and say again and again that Amit Verma
#
so these are small things
#
that you have to keep in mind
#
that the person you are talking to
#
that come in his profession
#
if there is a musical instrument
#
components can be in it
#
how many can be in making it
#
what can be their names
#
obviously in a journalistic practice
#
that you have pronounced
#
someone's name or the name of a city
#
or the name of a movement
#
or the name of a particular trend
#
you look like an outsider
#
the connection is broken
#
the person sitting in front of you
#
will understand that you
#
borrowed information from Google
#
even if you want to be pretentious for a while
#
but you must be sounding
#
like an authentic practicing
#
or a person who knows about
#
expressions of the certain profession
#
and you know my pronunciations are terrible
#
but I try to get people's names right
#
but I am always getting like
#
in this episode maybe Gurma and Gumbra
#
because they know that Amit does this
#
he will say his name wrong
#
I also want to ask you about
#
the scene and the unseen is an audio podcast
#
so throughout my natural
#
life there was a tendency that
#
I will not pretend anything
#
I will follow my own curiosity
#
then recently I started a YouTube show
#
with my friend called Everything is Everything
#
a friend of mine called Ajay Shah
#
we are very young we are still learning
#
in the sense the show is very young
#
we will get much better after 2 years
#
but what I find there is
#
I am getting incredibly self conscious
#
I hate looking at myself
#
look at the angle, don't show my chin
#
you know how I am sitting
#
is my shirt too tight etc etc
#
plays with me in the sense
#
in other ways I am comfortable in my own skin
#
I kind of think about this
#
1. I just want to be completely easy
#
and free with myself and no doubt I will learn that
#
but 2. then there is the sense of
#
that is not necessarily the natural me
#
like the natural me can just sit down
#
in a t-shirt and shorts and all
#
but I obviously can't shoot like that
#
there has to be some sense of formality
#
but can you take it too far
#
now I have been watching a lot of
#
Guptagu and I found that
#
1. you are always completely natural
#
completely okay in your own skin
#
different fashion evolution also
#
like there is one phase
#
when Guptagu went to Rekhta
#
where you were wearing these really nice
#
infact for 2 episodes Imtiaz Ali and Jai Di Palawat
#
you wore the same printed shirt
#
but one of them you wore a waistcoat
#
so I am guessing that was same day record
#
but I really loved those shirts
#
for 3-4 episodes you had those shirts
#
you are always very spiffy
#
then I noticed in 1 episode with Ram Gopal Bajaj
#
you are both wearing kurtas
#
and you are both really formal and really whatever
#
so what is your journey
#
of becoming comfortable
#
because as a person also I think we go through the journey
#
we are at one phase in life and we are very young
#
we are trying to impress other people
#
we are always trying to
#
figure out what will other people be impressed by
#
and try to conform to that
#
and also in terms of the show
#
because for a visual medium
#
I really have to force myself
#
to not think about how I am looking
#
when I watch my video show
#
so what is that sort of journey with you like?
#
but it went on for 1-1.5 years
#
who have seen me since my childhood
#
one of my television interview
#
someone is talking to me
#
in which I have such long hair
#
a good looking TV anchor
#
if television had adopted me
#
hair dye has not been used
#
maybe we have to address
#
so what you are demarking
#
it has a very interesting thing
#
and our cameraman is very happy
#
there are very interesting coincidences
#
that if I wore a yellow
#
in different departments
#
he must have done the costume
#
and he has a certain sense of aesthetics
#
what you are saying about yourself
#
you will come out of it
#
it will come out of this dilemma
#
when Noor Jahan came here
#
you have to be Dilip Kumar
#
or how is their screen presence
#
that there is still a certain level
#
in Mumbai humidity is so high
#
and as soon as you turn off the AC
#
because of that humidity
#
should I wear glasses or should I take them off
#
because at the same time
#
he should not feel that he is not being paid attention
#
you are thinking about your looks
#
if there is a light flick
#
then you are also concerned
#
you also feel that you took a break
#
then how to answer the next question
#
you are doing a recording
#
when you don't have a producer
#
you are the guest coordinator
#
you are the voice artist
#
so with all these responsibilities
#
I don't know what I found
#
this is a big challenge
#
there was a complete opposite
#
that with Dr. Mohan Agashe
#
should I talk about his acting
#
I found out that he is a very renowned
#
person who if I didn't take time
#
and the interview was not fixed
#
and he didn't give me time
#
then I wouldn't have been able to
#
it can be more valuable
#
if I don't talk about this
#
something that has not been
#
I chose that I will not ask him
#
about his acting career
#
so what you are saying about learning
#
that you are talking about
#
that are coming to you at that time
#
that the conversation with Jackie Shroff
#
broke in the first 3 minutes
#
if you see that interview
#
then you will feel that this conversation
#
then of course your own experience
#
that you get from your experience
#
are not written in any book
#
by any of your mistakes
#
your mouth gets clogged
#
he is sitting on that stage
#
for him you are just another
#
no matter what impression
#
how I try to get out of that crisis
#
and that can only be an attempt
#
even after that the tone
#
so it was difficult to say
#
was a good conversation
#
which you must have seen
#
in which his mother died
#
you feel that the guest is very tough
#
that guest proves to be the best
#
if you give a laid back approach
#
with him it will be good
#
and with him it gets very bad
#
what will be saved in the morning
#
will be saved in the night
#
but this is a responsibility
#
in the end you have to think
#
hard work you have done
#
to make this moment possible
#
then you approached him
#
this is the whole process
#
when you reach the culmination
#
that he should not fail next time
#
and that is a very good example
#
the story he told about his mother
#
and we will link it with show notes
#
I think he does not tell it to anyone else
#
you unlocked it from him
#
because this was your approach
#
appreciate that craft and many others too
#
so the question, the next question I want to ask
#
with your viewers changed over time
#
because what I have experienced
#
that because I am going so deep
#
and doing these kind of intimate conversations
#
a regular listener has with my show
#
and with me is really deep
#
I am very surprised by it also
#
the kind of love that I get from people
#
and you got an outpouring of such love
#
Gupta Gu stopped coming and there was this outpouring
#
that it should be revived
#
it should be resurrected
#
and I can't imagine it any other way
#
of course that outpouring would have happened
#
because how many shows like that are there
#
and of course that love continues
#
you know to this moment
#
tell me a little bit about that
#
because when I realized the connection that listeners have
#
I didn't realize myself that what kind of connection is there
#
it made me feel that this is bigger than myself now
#
that I can't take a break
#
I can't stop and I love doing it
#
why would I take a break
#
but there is also this feeling
#
it's not just something I like doing, it is also a responsibility
#
tell me how your relationship with your viewers
#
what is the kind of love that you have got
#
in a conversation with Mehmood Farooqi
#
whether they are sitting in the auditorium
#
or in your virtual space
#
the applause or cheerleaders
#
one is that as a communicator
#
as a responsible citizen
#
you have decided a path
#
you have made a drawing
#
with your own understanding
#
understand that from the bottle
#
you have taken out the jinn
#
and whatever they were getting
#
they had to choose between
#
then they were choosing one
#
that why they chose Nagnath
#
or why they chose Sampnath
#
there was no choice in front of them
#
you increased the choices
#
means you increased, I increased
#
you have done this work
#
they have to increase TRP
#
or they have to do self promotion
#
or they have to push some agenda
#
kept it in a broader social
#
that the people of our country
#
and we have to hold his finger
#
this is a vicious cycle
#
especially in commercial cinema
#
that people don't understand
#
that's why we will speak this kind of language
#
and this is something that I understood earlier
#
that to lift a man in a pit
#
then there will be two people
#
you will always have to
#
and you will have to help them
#
if you are an elevated person
#
that you can be a mentor
#
or you can be a responsible harbinger
#
then as soon as you take this responsibility
#
other responsibilities come on you
#
that no one will understand this language
#
and we speak this language
#
you make a relationship with them
#
mental intellectual level
#
a very rough and slippery path
#
think your audience is stupid
#
you have to balance them
#
interacting with an abstract
#
you don't know how many kinds of people
#
right now when I am speaking
#
my father can listen to this conversation
#
my husband can listen to it
#
my son can listen to it
#
my wife can listen to it
#
there are so many varieties of people
#
but you can use a common intention
#
that you are a responsible
#
in the struggle of this communication
#
should stay on the eye of the fish
#
what is the eye of the fish
#
Alp Shikshit is living in darkness
#
has created an environment
#
you can nurture a dream
#
this fight is very tough
#
even if I get a scratch on my nose
#
we can give a good language
#
so when people say that the conversation is a life-changing experience
#
the television was seen as
#
you redefined the art of interviewing
#
a big part of the audience
#
this is the market and this is the future
#
people used to talk about attention span
#
more than 2-2.5 minutes
#
this can be your reading
#
this can be your comfort zone
#
so you came to know that
#
were not being presented
#
with some crooked questions
#
and agenda was being pushed
#
and it is still being done
#
think, in fact I tell you
#
I have not told anyone yet
#
Karan Thapar did an interview
#
and he missed that moment
#
expectations are awakened
#
the gurus we learned from
#
with which we are moving forward
#
in which you will be aware of the language
#
you will be aware of that
#
Dilip Kumar and Noor Jahan
#
I went there where she used to live
#
so Dilip said that you are still a girl
#
there are such small moments
#
that you are still young
#
in which you have to capture
#
that I asked Sheila Dixit
#
that have you ever felt like
#
and you see blush on her face
#
you write in the comment box
#
the constituencies that you make
#
you are given more responsibilities
#
it makes your work easier
#
is it bad that you were doing
#
one thing and it stopped
#
and it didn't matter to anyone
#
you mentioned Karan Thapar
#
I won't talk about any individual
#
but I will say that there are anchors
#
who are thinking more of what they are going to say next
#
and less of what the guest is saying now
#
and I think that is dangerous
#
and you do just the opposite
#
you are just so focused on the guest
#
and the important point that you made
#
where I completely agree with you is that
#
while you need to care about your listeners
#
you are not given to their every demand
#
the way that I think about it is
#
I am going to follow my curiosity and my values
#
and those who want to come
#
otherwise people will demand
#
why are you doing this for 5 hours
#
and you have to follow your path
#
and if you are true to yourself
#
if you try to second guess what readers want
#
then you will eventually end up mediocre
#
before we move on from interviewing
#
I want to ask a final question about Rikta
#
because one of the things I noticed
#
I had a conversation with Danish Hussein
#
and I watched your conversation with him
#
firstly it was absolutely fantastic
#
one thing I really liked there
#
is that whenever he was using a difficult word
#
you were translating it
#
and explaining it to him
#
which I thought was very viewer friendly
#
and was working very well
#
and it was a show that was
#
really put out there with a lot of thought
#
not that we will do a conversation
#
produce, add effects, release
#
you are constantly thinking of the viewer experience
#
and the whole Rikta project in a sense
#
that we have to save this language
#
reinvigorate this language
#
so I want to ask you in a general sense
#
not just in the context of Rikta
#
but in the sense that how would you define
#
beyond what you have already described
#
and you want to shine a light on those who are unseen
#
whenever there is good content, good art, good work
#
it is driven by some sense of purpose
#
that is outside of that immediate thing
#
so can you tell me a bit more about that?
#
When this pandemic came
#
through my Facebook and Twitter account
#
that today they saw this episode, yesterday they saw that episode
#
and the whole pandemic era
#
is going into re-watching
#
meaning people were watching
#
interviews two years ago, five years ago
#
and people are watching
#
and they are caring about the show
#
some have it, some don't
#
it all depended on who was the
#
producer, who was on duty
#
and whether our production team
#
made content available or not
#
that while talking with MK Reyna
#
did we ever talk about Sabdar Hashmi
#
and watch the whole show in real time
#
let's make it a group activity
#
that whoever is watching
#
keep doing timestamping
#
names of books, names of cities
#
that during the pandemic
#
so many descriptions came
#
the person who liked the approach
#
it was a value addition for me
#
useful for a researcher
#
so it has childhood in every timestamp
#
if we talk about childhood
#
in the case of Seema Biswas
#
if she is a bandit queen
#
then where is the discussion of bandit queen
#
in this whole 45 minutes or 1.5 hours
#
for 1 hour and 13 minutes
#
so she will go there and do her work
#
because she is a known person
#
and you got to know about her life
#
that University of Pennsylvania's
#
Mr. Sudesh and his colleagues
#
an analytics of all episodes
#
which is there on their site
#
in India, only two shows
#
about this kind of research
#
these professors of University of Pennsylvania
#
they have done the whole graphics
#
I don't know much about
#
but they were doing it very ambitiously
#
and they did it with a lot of passion
#
there was a presentation
#
on this whole experience
#
and complementary activity
#
who is primarily speaking Urdu
#
even if he comes in context
#
there will be Persian words
#
that he doesn't want to go in the dictionary
#
we see him in the dictionary
#
so that he gets a complete viewing experience
#
if there are any dots left
#
then a little bit remains in the heart
#
you are including in your life
#
you are learning new words
#
so all this is a learning experience
#
if technology is giving you
#
let's talk a little bit about
#
there is a beautiful poem
#
this morning I am living in Delhi with a friend
#
the name of the poem is Kaviwar by Surjeet Patar
#
it is translated in Punjabi
#
I write the second line
#
and I get scared of the guerrillas
#
I have killed thousands of lines
#
the spirit of those lines
#
lamented about Madhuri magazine
#
on facebook and twitter
#
quote back in the day Hindi film magazines
#
like Madhuri which ran from 1963
#
to 1988 were packed with diverse
#
content many Hindi writers
#
including Kaka Hatrasi contributed
#
with serious opinions to light hearted
#
humor capturing the innocence of those
#
times free from political correctness
#
and I do feel that in today's media
#
chilling effect where on the one hand
#
people are scared to say anything
#
because of the regime in power and god knows
#
what will happen to them
#
and on the other hand because they might even
#
be afraid of their opponents on the
#
extreme left also because
#
in social media the discourse is so polarized
#
that you are either in one camp
#
or the other if you say anything nuanced
#
then you get cancelled from all sides
#
and many people remain silent
#
I think have really hurt our discourse
#
which is why people appreciate
#
shows like yours so much because
#
you are not scared of anyone
#
you are engaging with nuance you are going into
#
whatever you want to go into
#
what has changed in media from the time
#
in Allahabad in your first
#
college magazine even before that
#
you said that you published that magazine
#
so in a sense you have been a journalist for
#
so what is your sense of
#
what has changed in the media
#
in all these years and not just in the media
#
but in the whole artistic ecosystem
#
I would say that especially since this market opened
#
economic liberalization
#
the collapse of Soviet Russia
#
I will try to combine both
#
which is called collapse
#
but it has been defeated
#
finally it has been told that
#
you have to live like insects
#
whatever is happening is
#
the sin of your previous birth
#
they are part of the same nexus
#
the collapse of Soviet Russia
#
the power hungry people
#
the decrease of opportunities
#
such a world was created
#
in the times of freedom
#
would be working as a harbinger
#
would have been a dream
#
even after a few years of freedom
#
Rajendra Mathur, Raghveer Sahay
#
and Sarvesh Rudhiyal Saxena
#
our fellow professionals
#
saw that things are sold
#
and if there is a buyer
#
i.e. you are your conscience
#
your professional integrity
#
with which friends compromised
#
and networking in the press club
#
it has been completely corporate owned
#
we are not talking about
#
what is the issue if you see
#
that everyone is stealing
#
but still he is not able to pay
#
this is in front of you
#
people are committing suicide in desperation
#
questions are coming up
#
in the world of depression
#
and all this is happening
#
in front of us in our society
#
i.e. people who have this responsibility
#
who change things by doing
#
they are cooperating in a way
#
and only they will know
#
let me give you a small example
#
that in the name of Ganga Cleaning
#
since this Ganga mission has been made
#
that Ganga will be cleaned
#
this is such a big fraud
#
that has been made to clean Ganga
#
really wants to clean it
#
then this is not a rocket science
#
the reasons for its contamination
#
high level scientific inquiry
#
remedies in which some thousands
#
crore rupees have been spent
#
and are being spent and will be spent
#
factor that no one will ask you
#
that is it so difficult
#
only money will be thrown
#
and every future government
#
will say that Ganga is still
#
just with this one example
#
what are the priorities
#
and how they are being solved
#
that a large population
#
so we have come to such a place
#
we will talk about a particular regime
#
if we keep 50 grams here
#
your question is that over the years
#
you used to see such journalists
#
they used to walk on cycles
#
used to do field reporting
#
used to fight with their editors for their story
#
and there used to be editors
#
now there are no editors
#
whether it is newspapers or magazines
#
but the general scenario is that
#
the practicing journalists
#
you know the last 30 years
#
that multiple things are going wrong
#
I completely agree that
#
the politics fills me with
#
dismay the rise of majoritarian politics
#
since the 90s is horrible
#
and is destroying our country
#
the state has always been oppressive
#
and designed to be oppressive through the 75 years
#
but has become worse recently
#
markets got hundreds of millions of people out of poverty
#
that is a massive humanitarian good
#
and that really can't be denied
#
everything you and I are doing is because of markets
#
I mean if you think of markets as voluntary actions
#
of people without the interference
#
of the state, you know Rekhta did not
#
need to get a license from the government
#
podcasters don't need to get a license today
#
I remember how it was in the 80s
#
it was horrible, someone like me would not be able to
#
do what I do independently
#
and without asking anyone for permission
#
if you look at what life in the Soviet Union was like
#
it's a very good thing that it collapsed
#
what you are referring to as
#
the loss of that idealism
#
I think there are other
#
sort of factors in play there
#
like I remember I brought up this formulation
#
in an episode I think I did with Aakar Patel
#
or Tista Settilwada, forget when I first brought it up
#
the way I see it, there are three
#
things wrong with the country today
#
one of them is a party in power
#
now that is my personal thing, I know you will agree
#
some listeners may disagree, that is fine
#
but there are two things I think are indisputable
#
the extreme oppressive nature
#
of the state which is designed to
#
rule us and not to serve us
#
and we also behave not like citizens
#
but like subjects and to me that is a problem
#
and the second thing is
#
how our society is getting
#
fractured most particularly
#
with the anti-Muslim sentiment which
#
and I don't think that is only because of the party
#
in charge, I think that was a
#
all throughout, you know I have had various guests
#
on the show who even like Veer Sanghvi
#
for example had once spoken about how
#
the 1984 elections was really
#
the Hindu vote in a sense
#
and the BJP was founded in 80 or 81
#
saying we will do Gandhian Socialism
#
seminal meeting where they realised that what are we doing
#
Hindu vote was ours, we gave it up
#
you know, Jan Sankh ke time se hamara hai
#
and then they went for that and then it became a race
#
to the bottom, Babri happened, everything happened
#
and the country has gone to hell
#
but I think politics is downstream of culture
#
and I think there was something severely
#
broken in our culture which is why
#
shuru may be a few hours ago in the same
#
conversation I had asked you about
#
you know, Gurma being this beautiful
#
which is so cosmopolitan and where people are
#
mingling and there is a part of me
#
which looks back on this country and I think
#
that those were the exceptions
#
that the country was always waiting to fracture
#
in the way that it has, that politics has
#
today sort of caught up with society
#
that bleak outlook, do you think
#
ki aisa hona hi tha ki society me
#
you know, maybe we who believed
#
in a syncretic India where
#
religion doesn't matter, identity doesn't matter
#
maybe we were the fringe, maybe we were
#
in a bubble, ki yeh jo strain hai
#
humare culture mein yeh hameysha tha
#
like maine Akshay Mukul ji ke saath episodes kiye
#
unki Geeta Press ki book to apne pari hogi
#
beautiful book, and the sense
#
I get there is a depressing sense ki
#
that these sentiments have
#
been with us for a long long time
#
love jihad and cow slaughter were
#
life political issues in the 1920s
#
yeh koi nahi cheez nahi hai jo
#
they are supply responding to demand
#
so when you look at these trends
#
you know, what are sort of
#
your thoughts on this, like in the sense
#
that was it inevitable ki aisa hi hona tha
#
were we always like this
#
in a sense and this we are just waiting to find
#
expression, aapke thoughts kiye hai
#
kehi baar ki aisa hi hona tha
#
yeh sab cheeze rehti hain
#
pehnaave odhaave ko lekar
#
matbhedon ki gunjayish to hamsha rehti hai
#
mai samajta hu ki log to rehi rehte the
#
jin sawalon ke jawab nahi de pa
#
ek human dignity ke saath
#
is taraf dhyaan nahi dehenge
#
ek sabse asaan tariqa hai, mai kabhi-kabhi
#
sochta hu, ki maan liye ki Pakistan
#
duniya ke nakshay se ghayab kar
#
diya jaye, toh Bharat ki liye
#
ek baad muskil aan padegi ki wo
#
khaatpani dekha, matlab
#
power mein bane rehne wale
#
toh mujhe nahi lagta hai ki agar
#
cheezein other way round ho jayen
#
wahi log, wahi log jo saath me
#
rehte bhi hain, ek dooshe shrikait bhi
#
karte hain, wo kam se kam
#
ek dooshe ki dhyaan ki dushman toh nahi honge
#
agar unke paas, unko yeh
#
nahi bataya jaye ki, tumhari
#
deprive honi ki waja yeh
#
aapas mein unko hi yeh bata dena
#
paas naukri nahi hain isde kiunki yeh
#
jan sankhya baghara baghara badi hui
#
toh sawal yeh utta hai ki aap
#
ke saath jeene ke mawke nahi de rahe hain
#
liye kaam kar rahe hain
#
mujhe lagta hai ki, main ho sakta hai
#
bohot ulji hui apne ismein
#
kyunki mera wo subject nahi hain
#
mujhe main bohot shahid
#
lekin, phir main unke mukhable
#
janerizm kar rahe hain, main usko
#
lipa puti nahi karna chahta hu
#
angli rakhi jaye, bajay iske
#
yeh galat hai toh galat hai
#
ki differences hote hain, log saath mein rehte hain
#
saath mein na rahe hain ki
#
underline kar diya jaye
#
toh yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
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yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
yeh aapka irada ho sakta hain ki
#
that are they the same people who sing the songs of happiness, sorrow and love and bring you to a heightened experience,
#
then they are the same people who stand side by side with a regressive politics and stream.
#
Which means that if you have this, which Gandhi ji used to say,
#
that if the last tear of a person's eyes goes into rhetoric, then who can see it?
#
If after a while your art practice or your cultural practice starts to straight-patternize you,
#
then you can even make a raga in the name of your master's dog.
#
So where are you standing?
#
Because it will not work if you have done some humanitarian activity.
#
You have to look at it from a class approach.
#
I mean, how much are you able to help your toiling masses to identify your enemy?
#
Obviously, this is not the will of an individual.
#
Along with that, there should be a strong political and cultural movement in a parallel society.
#
This will show you that there is also a time when artists stand on a special stand point.
#
And that is more effective.
#
Like you have seen the film called Sone Ki Chidiya, which was written by Chukhtai and made by his husband, Balraj Sahni.
#
For the first time, we were able to see what the problems of extra people's lives were in the films.
#
So we were able to see them only because they were there on the edge of a special movement.
#
And now if you just have a desire to take a reward and to be straight-patternized,
#
this is a very pretty situation if you look at it.
#
How many people like T.M. Krishna are there who are able to talk so openly about music?
#
I mean, there must be some social interface.
#
In the conservative framework of the Guru-Shishya, if you go into music, there is something like a rehearsal or a repetitive work.
#
There is some joy in it, but it does not address the changing society and its aspirations.
#
It remains an elitist exercise.
#
In the field of culture, without any class approach, that practice will be like a repetitive practice.
#
T.M. Krishna came to my show a few years ago.
#
And my fans were very upset that I didn't ask him to sing.
#
And I was like, he had more important things to talk about than music.
#
So, you know, I completely agree with you.
#
And there is this famous saying, I think, attributed to Rufus Miles, that where you stand depends on where you sit.
#
And I think that could be true with a lot of artists, that if you have too much to lose, then you sort of have to be careful.
#
And this is, you know, the next natural question that therefore came to me also sort of leads me to the last question of the show.
#
You've been so patient with me, but I don't want to test your patience too much.
#
I'm so grateful for all these hours you've spent.
#
And that question then is that if your sense is that our artists haven't done enough, that they're playing it safe, they're in a status quo zone,
#
who are the artists you've really admired over the decades who've actually done things that you feel are what artists should do,
#
who've gone beyond the status quo, beyond the safe zone?
#
And the final question I ask all my guests which sort of plays into this is for me and my listeners, you know,
#
recommend books, films, music, any kind of art at all that really means a lot to you and you want to share it with the world.
#
So where should we start?
#
Let's start with the art.
#
No, so look, if I go into music, I feel that Pandit Kumar Gandharva is a unique person for me.
#
His approach is not only like a practitioner, but also as a theoretician.
#
He has articulated his practice in writing and so on.
#
I feel that in classical music, I would definitely like to take the name of Pandit Kumar Gandharva.
#
In visual art, if I look at older people, I will have to look at older people to see if I can take the name of Dhanraj Bhagat,
#
if I can take the name of Binod Bihari Mukherjee.
#
Obviously, I can take it.
#
The entire practice of art in Shantiniketan has a very different importance for me.
#
The story that I was doing on Shantiniketan, I saw that Nand Lal Bose's art college.
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He was the director of the National Gallery of Modern Art.
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He used to say, why are you sitting in the studio for the education of art?
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I want to have a ship of water in which all the students can sit.
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Today he is on this island, tomorrow he is on that island.
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He has been traveling on that island for three years.
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So I think it's a matter of approach.
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So yes, there are people.
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If you look at the world of such big films, I admire them more as an actor than as an activist and writer.
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In directors, I admire Hrithu Ghatak, my favorite director.
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Maybe Megha Dhaka Tara is my favorite film.
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So by doing this, if I separate everyone, it will not be fun.
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I think that a lot of things together, which is called Ravish Kumar, that there is a lot of rainwater in a tree.
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So why separate everyone in this?
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The second question is that according to my expectations, yes, this is the way.
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So obviously you can't put everyone in a mold and make everyone.
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But I can certainly expect that you are in your own role.
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So whoever thinks that if you are creating rain in music, then who will create rain in the society?
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You should definitely think about that.
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Even if you can't do it, but you are standing together.
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I saw Ustad Asad Ali Khan, who was a beekeeper, shouting slogans on the streets.
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You can say that a musician's job is to practice music, what happens by shouting slogans?
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No, it happens because a big community that admires you can also see this conviction of yours.
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That you don't just make the Sun society from a Sun valley.
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Rather, it also makes a difference if you stand up small.
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You feel free to read out any poetry if you want to.
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Whatever is close to your heart.
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That is a very long list of books.
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Some are selected, Desert Island Books or Desert Island Music.
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I was reading Harinna Chattopadhyay's autobiography.
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So I would say yes, it should also be read once.
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Harinna Chattopadhyay's autobiography.
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There is another autobiography in Hindi, which is by Pandey Bechan Sharma Ogarki.
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I really like these two autobiographical books.
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Paulo Freire's Pedagogy of Operas is a good book for me to learn.
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Krishnakumar's books written on the education of India are useful for us.
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If I may say so in books.
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Meghita Katara is my favourite film.
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There is no doubt about it.
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But I would say that Ray, Shyamji or Miralji.
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All of them have made very good films.
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And you have a responsibility.
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I mean, if I talk about directors without mentioning any name of a film.
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In music, I like everything in popular music.
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I like all kinds of music.
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In the break, I was joking with our sound recordist Ramartya that Irfan is such a legend.
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And I am so scared because I feel like he is judging me.
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But you have been very kind to indulge me with your time and with your insights.
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It has been a really memorable day for me today.
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Thank you so much for coming on the show.
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Thank you for listening.
