#
You will often find me ranting about how our discourse has been destroyed by social media.
#
Everywhere you find shallow shouting instead of deep dialogue.
#
And all conversation on platforms like Twitter is basically posturing.
#
Everyone argues in bad faith, there is no space for nuance, it's a drive to the extremes
#
and a race to the bottom.
#
That said, it's not all gloomy.
#
Modern technology allows creators like me to aim for something different.
#
Whether I'm writing or podcasting or YouTubing, the means of production are within my reach
#
and I can create the content I want to see.
#
That's what I try to do with the seen and the unseen.
#
To have dialogues and conversations that are not possible elsewhere.
#
Like, sure, there's a lot of screaming out there by a vocal minority, but I believe the
#
silent majority among us want more thoughtful engagement.
#
So thank you for being here.
#
We both care about the same things.
#
Welcome to the seen and the unseen.
#
My guest today is Kushal Mehra, who hosts a podcast on YouTube called the Charvaka Podcast
#
and has written a book called Nastik, in which he looks at the roots of atheism within the
#
Hindu tradition and argues that atheism that arises here is different from the atheism
#
I first heard of Kushal described as a right-wing podcaster, but when I checked out his work,
#
I realized that label was meaningless.
#
Kushal's work on YouTube, like his book, is driven by curiosity, a desire for knowledge
#
and an unwillingness to accept conventional wisdom at face value.
#
He holds a few positions I disagree with, but they are arrived at after deep thought
#
and they deserve deep engagement.
#
I found his journey through life fascinating.
#
He started as a businessman and he's a self-taught intellectual who studied philosophy and has
#
thought through all his positions.
#
I loved this conversation.
#
There was much that was thought provoking and you'll find us arguing about a lot, especially
#
Kushal is pro-BJP and pro-Hindutva.
#
I'm against both of them.
#
So we have a lively back and forth, which I think we both enjoyed because it was civil
#
Now, whatever your views are, I'm sure you'll agree with me that we must keep talking like
#
I know, by the way, this episode was recorded in April, so keep that in mind if anything
#
Before we begin the conversation though, let's take a quick commercial break.
#
Hey, the music started and this sounds like a commercial, but it isn't.
#
It's a plea from me to check out my latest labor of love, a YouTube show I am co-hosting
#
with my good friend, the brilliant Ajay Shah.
#
We've called it Everything is Everything.
#
Every week, we'll speak for about an hour on things we care about, from the profound
#
to the profane, from the exalted to the everyday.
#
We range widely across subjects and we bring multiple frames with which we try to understand
#
Please join us on our journey and please support us by subscribing to our YouTube channel
#
at youtube.com slash Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A.
#
The show is called Everything is Everything.
#
Please do check it out.
#
Kushal, welcome to The Scene in the Unseen.
#
How long have we been planning for this?
#
Many months, many months.
#
Last year, I was in Canada when I had reached out to you because I enjoy your work.
#
And I remember somebody was telling me, do you know Amit Verma?
#
I was like, no, man, I don't know him.
#
I'm just going to randomly send him a message telling that I like his work.
#
And let's see how it rolls.
#
And then you're like, no, no, I like your work too.
#
And then we've been planning.
#
Unfortunately, when I'm in Mumbai, you're not there.
#
And then this time, it just happened to happen that we are there.
#
So I'm actually really excited to talk to you.
#
And I mean this with all seriousness, that Indian content creation,
#
I say this with no shame, is actually pretty mediocre.
#
So when I see someone working hard like I do,
#
because I know I work very hard when I prepare for a podcast.
#
And when I watch or hear your content, I know you work hard for it.
#
And this comes from the perspective of a creator who works hard.
#
I actually appreciate what you do.
#
I should have invited you earlier on my own, actually.
#
I've been watching your stuff for quite a while.
#
And I know you work so hard.
#
Like some of the stuff that you've done on YouTube,
#
where you're literally you are live recording
#
and you're controlling what goes on the screen and all of that is quite wonderful.
#
And also the other reason I think we should have had this conversation much earlier is that
#
Indian discourse has just become so freaking polarized.
#
It's shouting on all sides.
#
And I try to have conversations and cherish conversations where,
#
There's no straw manning.
#
Even if you disagree, you do it in a civil way.
#
So and I find a lot of your ideas very thought provoking.
#
And your book is great.
#
I finished your book yesterday and it's wonderful.
#
And I would expect no different with your podcast.
#
But I want to start by asking you something,
#
not about any of the things that you've done all these videos on politics,
#
religion, we'll come to all of that.
#
But I was struck by something you said when you came in where you were early.
#
And you said that, you know, I always get early to wherever I'm going.
#
And the reason for that is, look, I've run a factory and in a factory,
#
even a minute's delay can just set things snowballing out of control.
#
So you have to be on time.
#
And I was struck with that as an example of,
#
you know, how our personal values can form in different ways.
#
Where, you know, in your case is perhaps that the kind of work that you've done
#
and the structure that imposed upon you then became a personal value.
#
And it's a great personal value.
#
I had to work a little harder at getting a similar value
#
because I didn't have anything to force me into it.
#
Instead, the culture everywhere is, you know, late, you know,
#
I'm the first guest there.
#
And, you know, they still haven't had the shower, so it can get embarrassing.
#
But tell me, I want to know about your personal values.
#
Like, how do you live your life?
#
Like a quote that has really sort of influenced me recently is Annie Dillard's,
#
you know, famous quote of how we live our days is how we live our lives.
#
That ultimately you might think of your life in grand terms, grand purpose and all that.
#
But ultimately, it is accumulation of the everyday.
#
So give me a sense of what that accumulation of the everyday means for you.
#
So in my case, I was I don't have many codes as such.
#
I'm a very regimented kind of a person.
#
I have a very fixed schedule every day.
#
And I've always been like that.
#
I think this side of my personality is my father.
#
So, you know, as children, we I know social science says
#
that kids get influenced more by their peers than than their parents.
#
The data kind of bears it out.
#
But in my case, as far as the traits of my parents are concerned,
#
I think this element comes from my father.
#
My father is a very systematized kind of a person.
#
Everything happens on time.
#
And my mom is the more, you know, empathy driven person.
#
She's always going to care and all that.
#
So whatever little empathy I have, I guess.
#
I'm not saying my father is like a robot or something before somebody misunderstands.
#
So in that case, I just saw that from a very young phase of my life,
#
I would look at a dad who would get up, do things on time.
#
And if you don't do it on time, it was bad and not in a Hitlerian way.
#
It's just that he would be hard on himself that if I don't value somebody else's time,
#
if I don't value my own time, it's an insult.
#
So that was one thing that I always looked up to my father in that sense.
#
The inquisitiveness, I think, in me, as far as the personality trait
#
is neither from my father nor from my mother.
#
I am what I am because of my elder brother.
#
I have said this multiple times.
#
I would not be even one tenth of the human being I am today.
#
If I didn't have a big brother in my life.
#
I distinctly remember as a young child, my brother telling me
#
that he would always say, this is so rare.
#
Today, I find in our culture asking why and my brother would constantly tell me
#
and then it just became a habit of being inquisitive.
#
And it's very unnatural at times.
#
I feel in this culture of ours,
#
which is very weird because we are allowed to question our gods in our culture,
#
which is also unique to our culture.
#
But don't question society.
#
No one says anything in this society.
#
Do as much batting and bowling as you want with your deities.
#
No one even raises a finger in this culture.
#
But respect your elders.
#
That filial piety is not in my mind.
#
Because my brother has.
#
I mean, I belong to a textile family because all the mahras that migrated here.
#
I mean, it's very funny.
#
All the mahras, whether it's the orcay mahras,
#
all of them were all one extended clan of Amritsar that comes.
#
I think it starts from the Pakistani Punjab.
#
And then these people also are in Amritsar.
#
And then all these mahras of textile, they were all silk.
#
So all these people came here one by one.
#
Even my dadu, he was also in textiles.
#
Even my dada's father, he was also in textiles.
#
So I am actually, I was the last textile wala when I quit textiles.
#
Like three years ago, I think I was the last Mehra in my small clan.
#
Abhi bhi hai Mehra textile mein.
#
Orkay wale abhi bhi hai textile mein.
#
Magar hum nikal chuke hai.
#
Humari immediate family puri nikal chuki hai.
#
So I guess for me, life is just, I am a disciplined person by nature.
#
First thing I get up in the morning, I know I have to brush my teeth.
#
It's like everything is a chore for me.
#
I just do things as a matter of habit.
#
Because I feel that if I save on time that way,
#
I can do things that I truly enjoy.
#
It's just an efficiency thing.
#
And it got exacerbated because of my factory.
#
Because we were running a 24-hour unit.
#
So usme teen shift hoti hai, 24 gante chalti hai.
#
And literally, if one machine shut down, the entire process would shut down.
#
So how do you manage it?
#
Like ek machine bandh hui, uska jo part hai, wo spare hai ki nahi.
#
You have small, small things.
#
And it just got ingrained in me.
#
And then I started taking those principles.
#
I was like, actually, this is a very good way to live your life.
#
Because you always have a backup plan.
#
You have a plan A, you have a plan B, you have a plan C.
#
And I was like, this is such a highly efficient plan of living your life.
#
So why not apply it in your personal life?
#
So my personal life is very regimented.
#
Get up in the morning, have your breakfast,
#
then wait for a half an hour, 45-minute period, go and work out.
#
Then once you're done working out, then you start your work.
#
Today, whether it's me podcasting or before that,
#
it was me going to the factory.
#
And then you finish your work.
#
Haan chalo ek ganta dekhlo.
#
Like, my wife and I, we usually, like, my wife is busy doing her stuff in the day.
#
So we have this thing, like, to unwind, we'll watch something
#
or together on Netflix or whatever.
#
My wife also finds it funny.
#
She's like, yeh bhi tu ne regimented kar diya hai.
#
Ki abhi hum saath mein hain.
#
Kabhi bhi ho sakte hum saath mein hain.
#
But it's just second nature to me.
#
It has, I guess, a bad side to it also.
#
Sometimes when things go out of plan, I could get annoyed.
#
But now over the years, I've even learned to go with the flow.
#
Earlier, younger, even for me, maybe in my 20s and 30s would get very worked up
#
if things didn't go according to plan, as the Joker in the Batman said.
#
But now I've kind of adjusted to that.
#
And that, I think, has come from my spirituality as in philosophy reading.
#
That living moment to moment, staying within the moment.
#
A lot of people talk about it.
#
I actually, when I read something, the first lesson I try to say is
#
agar mein kisi ko pad raha ho, can I learn something from them?
#
And I think that their living moment to moment,
#
that the stream of consciousness, as the Buddha would say,
#
is just bundles of thought where arises dead, arises dead.
#
And because of the illusion of the self, we look at it as one string,
#
which is, or Parfit, bhai usko credit karna chahiye to Buddha ko,
#
jisne Parfit ne basically bundle theory of thought kiya.
#
Toh aur David Hume ne bhi kiya.
#
But for me today, I'm more comfortable.
#
But I still feel overall efficiency wise,
#
it's just because I saw a role model in my father,
#
I picked up the best values.
#
I guess if somebody asked me my strength is,
#
I'm very fast at picking up somebody else's best values.
#
So if I see something that makes sense, I'll be very fast to pick that up.
#
I learn very quickly from someone because I'm,
#
in my sense is because from where I come from mentally, there's only one life.
#
I don't know if there is rebirth, right?
#
So I'm trying to maximize my life by living to the best of my ability.
#
And one small line my dad always told me in my childhood that,
#
that actually is my moral code.
#
And people might think what a stupid moral code this is,
#
but because my dad told me this is what his dad told him,
#
ki puttar kabhi bhi kisi ko intentionally harm mat karna.
#
Unintentionally toh tu kar dega toh terko malum nahi hai.
#
But never try to harm people intentionally.
#
And that to me today, even today as I'm a 43 year old,
#
I just find the profundity in that small line,
#
ki my dadu said such a profound thing that,
#
bura nahi karo kisi ka, matlab soch ke mat karo.
#
I'm not saying maine kabhi kisi ko intentionally harm nahi kiya hai mentally.
#
Obviously kiya hai, hum sab nahi kiya hai.
#
Agar hum bol rahe hai, hum nahi kiya hai, hum apne aap se jhoot bol rahe hai.
#
But at least somewhere in my mind, every time I have those thoughts,
#
I get an image of my dada.
#
I was like, dadu bol rahe hai, mat kar.
#
And I'm not scared of any god or anything.
#
See, because I don't have god in my life.
#
But I do have my dada in my life, in spirit, in his thoughts.
#
I have my father in spirit and in reality.
#
So for me, those are the ways, that's how I live my life.
#
I literally live my life in a very simple, uncomplicated code,
#
where I don't have some grand plan or anything.
#
I don't have a 20 year plan.
#
I have a one year plan.
#
I have a one and a half year plan.
#
I'm not saying people who do think are wrong.
#
I'm just saying, I don't have the bandwidth to do so much planning.
#
I'm a very live in the moment kind of a guy.
#
And I think it stems from a very, very good personal life I have.
#
Which is why I've said it so many times on social media also.
#
I'm not here to make friends.
#
Because I have friends.
#
I have wonderful friends in my personal life.
#
People who I can call up at...
#
And the irony is that my two best friends
#
literally stay one building away from me.
#
And they are my friends since school.
#
Aur main aaj bhi unke saath dostu.
#
And the best thing they've done for me
#
is that they don't watch my content.
#
Because they don't give a shit about what I say.
#
Because to me and to them, it is just college or school.
#
And our discussions are never about my content.
#
It is so grounding that when I'm with them,
#
they're pulling my leg.
#
And so how I live my life in that sense
#
makes things much easier for me.
#
And all of this led me to the understanding
#
and which I even try to explain in the book
#
is the value of community.
#
I am a staunch secularist.
#
Anybody who follows my content will know
#
I'm a flag bearer of secularism.
#
But I want it in the political realm.
#
The problem of our society is
#
the political wants to influence the personal.
#
And the personal wants to influence the political.
#
Yes, some spillover will always exist.
#
But what scares me is that
#
I don't want secularism in personal life.
#
I want family in personal life.
#
I don't want religion in political life.
#
And that's the struggle in India.
#
And I believe all of us in our own unique way
#
Maybe our solutions are different.
#
But the default line should always be
#
never question the intent of the other side.
#
I mean, until and unless they are blaringly,
#
you know, exceptions always apply.
#
Like they're an open bigot
#
who hates all people of X community
#
or something of that sort.
#
But like the Hanlin's razor is truly a great tool
#
that never attribute to malice
#
that can be explained by stupidity or ignorance.
#
Whatever word we want to use.
#
I actually, I always tell people
#
you read it but you don't think about it.
#
I read the Hanlin's razor and it imbibed it in my life.
#
I said, no, he must be saying it.
#
Why do you assume that person wants to
#
And no, I will eat you.
#
No, and people don't think so much, boss.
#
People don't think people just emote.
#
So if you can rationalize these things.
#
So, so I don't know if that answers your question,
#
but this is literally how I think.
#
And I'm sure if people watch me and like,
#
I've had comments like,
#
are you supposed to be different or something?
#
I don't take myself so seriously.
#
I mean, I have seen this, like,
#
I'm the same old person.
#
I think, and I think in that way,
#
I'm lucky that I did not start my career
#
I started as a hardcore businessman
#
where your whole job is to please your customer.
#
So I was used to pleasing customers.
#
And then I turned into this.
#
And I was too old to change my personality then.
#
this doesn't happen to me now.
#
When you start at the age of 36, 37 years old
#
and dabble with something,
#
I'm not going to change.
#
So I guess that's my answer.
#
I don't know if it's satisfactory to anyone.
#
Any answer is satisfactory if, you know,
#
you sort of reveal so much of yourself.
#
There are like 50 things I want to double click on
#
and many things I'm jealous about.
#
I really resonated with a few of the points you made.
#
Like that, like one of the mantras I carry with me
#
into any conversation with anybody new
#
You know, always assume goodwill.
#
Assume the person means well.
#
And bad may, like you said,
#
if you have reason to believe,
#
otherwise it is what it is.
#
There was a great sort of tweet by Tim Urban recently
#
where he said that whenever I meet someone
#
I really despise at first sight,
#
later on I find they're not so bad.
#
And whenever I meet someone I really love,
#
later on I find ki nahi, is may be khamiya hai.
#
And it's almost like a reversion to the mean.
#
And the thing is, like we contain multitudes.
#
There are beautiful things in everyone.
#
And I think the moment you realize that
#
and you just kind of sit back
#
and, you know, enjoy the humanity of other people,
#
I also resonated with that thing about not planning too far.
#
Like one thing, like I've been a daydreamer all my life,
#
but one thing that I've realized over time
#
is that if you plan beyond a certain horizon,
#
given that the world is so complex,
#
you're not planning your daydreaming.
#
It just doesn't make sense.
#
Like, yeah, so the best thing is that
#
you set a certain kind of routine for yourself.
#
You set a certain rhythm.
#
You set, you build habits
#
and then wherever they take you,
#
I was also really struck by your dadu's folksy wisdom
#
carried on to your dad and then to you
#
about never intentionally harm someone.
#
And, you know, from my deracinated Western Enlightenment world view,
#
I remembered the harm principle of John Stuart Mill.
#
But that also reminded me of an interesting thought experiment
#
a friend of mine posed to me.
#
Where a few episodes ago Deepak V.S. asked me this great question.
#
He said that I have to choose between two things.
#
And I'm putting it to you now.
#
You have to choose between two things.
#
In one scenario, you kill someone,
#
but you don't know you killed them.
#
So you live the rest of your life with zero guilt.
#
I mean, you have no memory of it.
#
You don't know you killed them.
#
In another scenario, you don't kill anyone,
#
but you think you killed someone.
#
And you live the rest of your life with that
#
quote unquote knowledge that you killed someone.
#
Obviously, it will always be the first one
#
because the idea of knowing that I harm someone
#
is far more painful than the idea of never knowing it.
#
It's obvious because thought, the pain,
#
what is the feeling of pain?
#
In my view, it is generated from the thought.
#
So if the thought doesn't exist, the feeling doesn't exist.
#
And I as a selfish being, and it's like we're all selfish,
#
I wouldn't want to have that feeling.
#
At the end of the day, we are pleasure maximizing species.
#
We maximize our pleasure by trying to reduce our pain.
#
Yes, sometimes we seek pain through physical workouts
#
or through many other things so that we always remember
#
what it is to feel pleasure.
#
But in my case, I would definitely not want to know
#
because if I know, I rate myself,
#
I don't think I'm a bad human being.
#
So my initial instinct, why I picked one was that
#
I don't want to harm people.
#
But in the first example, you actually killed someone,
#
So if I don't know it, in my head, I don't know it,
#
then I didn't kill someone.
#
It's a very hedonistic way of thinking.
#
No, I had exactly the same answer.
#
And this is everyone's first instinct when I asked them.
#
But sometimes they fight the instinct
#
and they don't express it.
#
But I think I love this sort of experiment
#
because it gives a lie to the whole thing
#
that you care about other people.
#
That kind of utilitarian thing, how many lives are lost.
#
Because in the second example, no lives are lost,
#
And I'm like, everyone's going to choose no guilt
#
because that, I think, reveals something
#
about human nature as well.
#
I want to take you back to your childhood.
#
You mentioned various people.
#
I'm going to ask about each of them,
#
your brother, your mom.
#
But first, perhaps your dad, where you spoke about
#
how you got that particular virtue of punctuality
#
and having a structure and a rhythm from him.
#
And you've also mentioned in your book
#
that he was a murti pujak, used to have an icon.
#
And that reminded me of something
#
a previous guest of mine said.
#
I can't remember whether he said it on the record
#
or off the record, so I won't take his name.
#
But he said something really interesting.
#
He said that, look, I have to go to office
#
at 8 o'clock every morning.
#
I have 50 people reporting to me.
#
That is the only thing that keeps me sane.
#
It gives structure to my life in the same way
#
that in the 17th century, somebody would get structured
#
in his life from going to a temple every day.
#
And that thought of how we give structure to our days
#
and that structure brings meaning with it.
#
It gives you a sense of purpose,
#
at least on a day-to-day basis.
#
Whether it is 50 people are dependent on me
#
or whether you feel bound to that routine
#
of going to the temple every day in the 17th century, whatever.
#
And I was struck by how both of these
#
are kind of coming together.
#
So tell me about what your dad was like,
#
what were your interactions with him like,
#
what kind of person was he?
#
My dad's relationship with his deity is very interesting.
#
He questions his deity a lot.
#
My dad is not, I surrender to you, believer.
#
My dad is very much, I question you, believer.
#
He has conversations with his deity in his head.
#
I know that for a fact.
#
It's like last time, I remember dad and mom told me,
#
dad went to Ramakrishna Paramahansa's ashram.
#
He said, I just started crying as I entered the ashram.
#
Tears just started running down my,
#
and I was like, that's a man who's thinking.
#
That's a man who's not surrendered.
#
He's always having his struggles with,
#
because my dad loves poetry.
#
He loves all those things.
#
He's actually very good in Urdu also.
#
And my kid of Bulleh Shah is directly from my dad.
#
There will be people, if they listen to me enough,
#
he drops Bulleh Shah in every podcast.
#
And copious quotes in your book also.
#
I am a Bulleh Shah Bhakt in that sense,
#
from a poetry perspective.
#
I don't see the rub he saw,
#
but I definitely see the beauty he saw.
#
And dad's relationship with his Ishwar is very complex.
#
That dad has this routine.
#
He'll get up in the morning.
#
First, let's go for a walk.
#
Then we'll go for a walk,
#
and then we'll take a bath,
#
It's not like an elaborate one hour.
#
You know, what I've noticed is,
#
my dad is not ritualistic.
#
He has that bhakti through prayer,
#
through questioning his Ishwar.
#
He might even question his Ishwar's existence.
#
But the point is, he prays daily.
#
and that's dad's routine.
#
then the bell will ring at our temple,
#
and then the shankh will ring.
#
And then we'll know that dad's puja is over.
#
We all know that at home.
#
There's an announcement that dad's puja is over,
#
and dad is coming down now.
#
So dad has a very interesting relationship.
#
But it doesn't mean that people who are ritualistic are wrong.
#
I think that gives them structure.
#
My father did not seek structure through prayer.
#
I think my father seeks structure through
#
regular mundane secular jobs,
#
his relationship with his God is a very deeply personal one.
#
It's very different from,
#
you know, what you were saying.
#
It's a very different thing.
#
My father has a very personalized relationship.
#
And actually in a very interesting way,
#
mum ke saath bhi yahi hai.
#
which I think is the case for most people.
#
And I find nothing wrong with that either.
#
And it's very interesting,
#
like my nana was a staunch Arya Samaji.
#
Go nahi karte the murti puja.
#
But mum is like a bit of everything.
#
Mum ka favorite ho meri hai.
#
Humare ghar mein entry karte hai na,
#
toh niche Shiv ji ki murti hai.
#
So I live in a row house.
#
So niche Shiv ji ki murti hai,
#
shower ke baad apna joj jalayenge
#
aur Shiv ji ko karenge.
#
because humare Chembur ka jo Arya Samaj hai,
#
usme literally meri mom aur meri wife dono active hai.
#
Toh every Wednesday wahan pe hawan bhi karenge mummy.
#
My mom is getting the best of both worlds.
#
The non murti pujak and the murti pujak.
#
So meri mummy ke haat dono katoro mein ghee mein hai.
#
aapke toh dono maje hai.
#
Yahaan se bhi maje lete ho, wahaan se bhi lete ho.
#
Humare ghar mein actually mere father bhi hawan karte hai
#
aur murti puja karte hai.
#
Magar mom comes from a very Arya Samaji background.
#
Dad comes from a very Sanatani,
#
kyunki Punjabi Hindus hai,
#
toh sare hi Arya Samaji padat hi karte hai.
#
their weddings are very Arya Samaji.
#
ek cultural impact hai na,
#
wo zyada Punjabi Hindus mein Arya Samaj ka aage hai.
#
I don't think people realize that
#
Swami Viren Saraswati was from Gujarat.
#
Waha pe toh itni unko pick up nahi mili,
#
Punjab mein baoth mili,
#
Haryana mein baoth mili.
#
And aaj bhi Arya Samaj ki jo core strength areas hai,
#
they are Northern India,
#
Waha pe toh hai hi nahi unka itna prachalan.
#
It's all Gujarat mein zyada Vaishnavism
#
aur Jainism aur yeh sab hai.
#
But Punjab mein aaj bhi,
#
it's not that Vaishnavs are not there in Punjab,
#
But they have merged their Vaishnavism
#
and Arya Samaj in such a beautiful way in Punjab.
#
people say it is hypocrisy.
#
No, that's the beauty of this land.
#
Where even Bulleh Shah became like us.
#
why did they call Bulleh Shah Kafir?
#
Because he became like us.
#
no tainu Kafir, Kafir, Aakhde,
#
Because he became like us.
#
And the Puritans of his time,
#
they were like, yeh toh Kafir hai.
#
Because main hamesha se yeh kaita hai ho,
#
Jahaan pe even mere jaisa,
#
jo literally nahi maanta hai yeh.
#
Kuch bhi nahi maanta hai main.
#
Aur mere jaisa ko bhi apna liya hai inhone.
#
Isi leh maine kitab me likha nahi.
#
Meri koi ekdum aise koi sexy story hai nahi,
#
ki bhai mere saaj yeh hua,
#
re I was really tortured,
#
Nahi bhai mere par kuch nahi hua.
#
Nothing happened to me.
#
And a gigantic majority of us ke saaj nahi hota hai,
#
jo humare desi skeptics hote hai.
#
So my book was giving voice to those silent millions.
#
Nobody speaks for them.
#
I wanted to speak for them.
#
Because when they read it,
#
yeh toh meri bhi life hai.
#
Kittonon ke maabaap ko toh malum bhi nahi hoga,
#
wo haath jodh raha ho maanta nahi hai.
#
Main bhi toh karta hu na, meri book aayi.
#
Mummy ne bola tha book kaha hai.
#
Mala, okay ja upar mandir.
#
Mane ek minute bhi jahadha nahi kiya mummy ke saath.
#
Mane, nahi jaana toh chahi hai.
#
Toh main bhi chale gaya upar.
#
Abhi main jodh ke usko kya bolu.
#
Do second ke liye maine wala,
#
haan thank you God toh bol nahi saktar,
#
kyunki I don't think o God hai.
#
Mager maine wala, okay thank you Ramji, Krishnaji.
#
Buddha, Mahaveer, mann mein bulleh Shah ko bhi thank you bola.
#
Kyunki unko toh book main bhi odh diya hai.
#
Main sabko thank you bola.
#
Mala, thank you for teaching me.
#
Aur phir main aagaya book leke niche phir mummy ko dedi.
#
I was like, this is the beauty of this land.
#
And how can I not celebrate that?
#
I am not saying we are perfect.
#
We have so many problems.
#
Anybody who reads my book will be like,
#
oh isne toh bahut zyada problems batani hai apni land ki.
#
In spite of all those problems.
#
I still, I just can't say this land has nothing to offer.
#
Yeh is bhoomi mein ek jadu hai jo har aadmi ko.
#
Agar wo open mind se dekhega.
#
To circle back to what you said.
#
Ki aajkal, hum kya samaj banana chahte hain?
#
Ki agar humne politics ko religion bana diya hai?
#
Mala, mere tauji, mere father ke sagye hai.
#
Ho congress ko vote karte hain.
#
Mere pitaji BJP ko vote karte hain.
#
Dono bhai ek dosare ko dil se zyada pyaar karte hain.
#
Mala tum ek political party ke liye
#
apne risto ko khadam karoge.
#
Isko toh main mand buddhi kahunga ki
#
who cares what you vote for or what you do.
#
Aap agar charche, and then don't say you are dharmik.
#
Yeh agar aap kisi se sirf matbhed ke karan
#
Toh toh sabse bada dharm hain.
#
Isme kaunsa dharm aage?
#
Isme toh koi dharm hain hi nahi.
#
So for me, my dad's relationship with God
#
is that, a very intense relationship.
#
A very intense relationship where
#
and I think that's a very typical
#
non-monotheistic thing because
#
unlike monotheism where the creator and the creation
#
So I think dad in that sense, he is there.
#
And it's actually a very interesting thing
#
to look at me because I feel nothing.
#
As a disbeliever, I feel nothing.
#
But when I look at him,
#
it gives me a unique sort of a perspective
#
that what religion does to people
#
and what it provides people is so multifaceted.
#
It's not just an anchor.
#
It isn't just an anchor.
#
But it is way more than an anchor.
#
And I don't know why people don't agree with it.
#
Especially the more rabid form of atheism.
#
I don't understand that.
#
I love that story about how your mom said
#
go up to the mandir and then you go up
#
and you thank these different
#
sort of gods and bullisha.
#
It's so beautiful to have that tapestry
#
around you where you can actually do that.
#
It's filled with so much symbolism for me already.
#
I also want to sort of go back to your dad
#
for a moment because what you told me
#
about him is profoundly interesting.
#
Not just the dialogue that you said he is in
#
or you feel he is in with his god all the time,
#
but also the fact that he loves Urdu,
#
he loves poetry, he loves all of those things.
#
And I think what happens in a lot of
#
father-son relationships is that when we
#
grow up we look at our parents as something
#
A father is a father and that image gets fixed.
#
And it's well into adulthood if at all
#
that you realize that they are also human beings.
#
They've got desires, they've got weaknesses,
#
they've got all this shit happening, all of that.
#
And often it takes a long time to play out
#
and often it just simply never happens.
#
Till the end of your life there is that barrier
#
where you never really know the other person
#
And I'm just sort of wondering that since
#
you've lived with him all his life to the current day,
#
give me a sense of when that began to shift
#
from you from seeing him as a father to seeing
#
him as a man and when did you get a sense
#
of that interior life of his?
#
Like the conversations that he might have
#
with his deity, has he told you about them?
#
Has he spoken about what that relationship is like?
#
I'm very lucky in that sense in our house,
#
mom and dad always encourage discussion.
#
So it's a very funny thing.
#
In our house, dad used to come home from work
#
and he used to sit on the sofa,
#
because mom also used to work with dad, right?
#
She took care of us and helped dad run a business too.
#
And dad would just go and work.
#
And mom would shuffle between all of that.
#
And you know, we had a very typical system
#
Dad would come back from work.
#
And all of us would chat.
#
This is bad, this is good.
#
So for us, dad sharing his thoughts is very normal.
#
Dad writes poetry also.
#
So we get to know dad's thoughts only in that.
#
so in our house, like in the ground floor,
#
there are two libraries.
#
One is my library which is all the way up
#
and then dad's library.
#
other than Imran Khan's autobiography,
#
Sunil Gavaskar's autobiography,
#
everything is spiritual.
#
I would have never read the volumes
#
and speeches of Swami Vivekananda
#
but because my dad had it, I read it.
#
Because my English is not that good.
#
you sound okay, but no,
#
I still think in Hindi.
#
It's like a weird cognitive flip happening in my brain.
#
in real time it happens in English
#
and then the words come out.
#
But I still think in Hindi.
#
So I can read very well in Hindi to this date
#
where he has Jain books,
#
he has Swami Vivekananda,
#
he has Ramakrishna Paramahams,
#
he has all these books.
#
so for me, there is no one particular moment
#
sharing his spirituality
#
through his poems where he would send me poetry.
#
Now it's good that it's WhatsApp
#
otherwise we used to read books.
#
Now dad writes on WhatsApp and sends it.
#
It's a very normal process for us.
#
My brother is also a brilliant writer.
#
So it's very common in our house.
#
We don't publish anything.
#
We are only four people,
#
viewers and consumers of content.
#
started telling the world
#
the atmosphere of my house was so conducive
#
that appreciation of poetry,
#
appreciation of art, appreciation of music,
#
appreciation of philosophy
#
is very common in our house.
#
there are such discussions on your dining table.
#
I said yes, it's very common
#
And many times it gets heated.
#
Why shouldn't it be like this?
#
And it's very normal for us
#
So there is no one point I can tell you
#
Because it was such a gradual process of
#
that there are such thoughts.
#
Dad thinks like this about this one.
#
The most amazing thing is like
#
my wife has also blended it
#
into that atmosphere so well.
#
She comes in and now she also is part
#
of the same, you know, Chopal.
#
We have just extended the Chopal.
#
One more member or my bhabhi is also
#
And I hope my bhatija will also be part of that Chopal.
#
He is still very young, 10 years old.
#
But when he grows up, I wish
#
he also joins that discussion because
#
I realized the value of
#
The value of satsang I always say
#
is that satsang is not a pravachan.
#
Pravachan hota ki mai bol raha hoon tum mujhe suno.
#
Satsang hota ki mai bol raha hoon.
#
Abhi tum chup. Ab mai bol raha hoon.
#
And when you have enough time, right?
#
Because when you live the whole life with each other
#
everybody gets a moment of time when they get to speak.
#
So you kind of know where each other
#
stands. So in our house
#
there was no particular point where I found out
#
Or oh my mom's like this. Oh my brother's like this.
#
I know it sounds unreal but my house
#
is actually like that. It's a very
#
very very you know open
#
It's a very plural house.
#
pluralism is very deeply
#
code. If a house had a genetic
#
We're very clear about my father
#
will not deviate from his non-monotheistic
#
his own terms. So it's not
#
exclusivist like monotheism
#
is. Which you know monotheism in its
#
code is incapable of handling non-monotheism.
#
But my father while he's
#
a staunch non-monotheist
#
he can handle monotheism too.
#
don't remember that one point because
#
my childhood is like this.
#
Listening to dad and mom
#
initially talking about it. Then
#
my parents encouraged us to speak up.
#
Which is very unlike Indian parents.
#
They would actually encourage us
#
even makes my wife speak
#
For me it's a very tough question.
#
Actually this is the toughest question you ask.
#
Actually I don't remember when it happened.
#
Because I see it every day in my house.
#
should have a big boss house camera
#
because I too don't know.
#
I don't know how it happened
#
because it's such a gradual thing.
#
Which is why I said in the book also like
#
I don't remember when I lost faith.
#
Because you remember these
#
things when it's an issue.
#
Or when it's an aberration right.
#
When the baseline is so normal
#
this is the standard baseline.
#
You don't remember the baseline when it started.
#
You remember the deviations.
#
it's like you remember Ian Healy
#
dropping Brian Lara in the famous
#
You remember that. You don't remember Ian Healy
#
doing what he's supposed to do
#
as the baseline which is taking a catch
#
doing a stumping. You know that kind of stuff.
#
was always having these discussions
#
remember when it happened.
#
So you know the dad bit about
#
all the books your dad had is also resonant
#
with me because after my dad
#
died we gave away his books to a library
#
and there were like 80-90
#
sort of cartons of them
#
and about 50-60 cartons of them would just
#
have been religion and spirituality books.
#
And I have a feeling that he was never religious
#
but I have a feeling that he collected
#
them because a part of him felt a hole
#
and he wanted to believe. But the
#
rational side of him couldn't get himself to
#
fully go there. But he had those books
#
and he read many of them anyway.
#
And I remember this episode I did
#
I was talking about the illiberal aspects
#
of India like caste and women and all
#
of those things. And he stopped me
#
and he said but you also have to remember that we are
#
deeply illiberal yes but we are also deeply liberal
#
and then he pointed to all the
#
sort of the khichri that we become
#
that is our food, that is our cuisine, that is our
#
languages and all of that. And what you
#
describe about your house sounds exactly like
#
that. That in a superficial way you
#
will see the religion. But if you
#
look a little deeper everything is flowing
#
so well together and here you are
#
writing a book about atheism
#
growing up there. Tell me
#
you also mentioned that
#
your elder brother is also influenced by you.
#
Very big, probably the biggest.
#
will say it again I would not be
#
being I am if it was not to him.
#
You know people are like
#
everyone loves their parents the most
#
they only love their brother. But in my case
#
it truly is that. I mean how can I
#
the reason I am what I am.
#
I mean if he would not have
#
given me the gift of inquisitiveness
#
I would not be writing this book
#
anything. I would not be hosting
#
me so much in everything
#
of my life. Just being there
#
for me. Always being there for
#
it is unbelievable how much he is
#
given to me intellectually.
#
yes you could be doing it
#
in a very weird way like Nietzsche
#
I don't know what he is anymore.
#
He used to be agnostic.
#
I don't even have that discussion with him anymore.
#
Whether he is agnostic anymore.
#
He would still bow down
#
different way of looking at it.
#
I have a very different way of looking.
#
I think I would be more rabid
#
I think with age now he has
#
tempered down in his disbelief
#
children your perspective of
#
the world. I have seen a lot of people's perspective.
#
When you create life your
#
perspective of the world just changes completely.
#
And I have seen him change
#
growing up he was very protective.
#
He protected me from everything.
#
If somebody would tease me
#
If somebody would tease me
#
that person's band is going to play.
#
He never looked at me like a younger brother.
#
I think for me, for him
#
I am always his younger child.
#
I think he is still very protective
#
has this wonderful gift
#
that I don't know how he got it.
#
I don't know where he got it from.
#
to question the shit out of somebody
#
Sometimes to the annoyance of them.
#
He is like that Paresh Rawal. Do you remember that movie?
#
Paresh Rawal with a question mark.
#
he would always be like
#
if I go through a struggle
#
no matter how small it is
#
I shouldn't be with my younger brother.
#
So for him that matters
#
No matter what happens to me
#
it should not happen to my younger brother.
#
it doesn't happen to me.
#
outside India. I stay here.
#
he will leave everything.
#
he will leave everything.
#
It's a different level of
#
It's not like we talk everyday. We don't.
#
He has his family. I have my family.
#
to express in words what my brother means.
#
I can easily express it about my parents.
#
because my love for him is so internalized
#
for me to express that.
#
So it's very difficult for me to say
#
Because for me it is impossible
#
I do something, he is always
#
about something, I call my brother
#
we say papa ji. So I call him papa.
#
So it was always in my mind
#
him and I don't agree on everything.
#
We have our own analysis.
#
We reach our own conclusion.
#
My anchor is my brother.
#
My literal epistemic anchor
#
Because his epistemic framework
#
is very clear. His first principles
#
are very clear. So it is so
#
to see how he builds arguments
#
how he breaks them down.
#
to me helps me a lot. So for me
#
I think that is the best way I can explain
#
protective figure in my life.
#
He has always been very
#
I love the thought of having a mental anchor
#
like that because I think the purpose that it would
#
serve no matter who the anchor is
#
that it allows you to go out
#
of yourself for a moment and take a different
#
sort of view at what you might be
#
going through. And I also want to add that
#
you know and I have been thinking about this for a while
#
that curiosity or inquisitiveness
#
it is not a trivial quality.
#
Because if you are always inquisitive
#
that you have humility. That you are
#
willing to accept that there are many things you don't
#
know and that you want to ask.
#
Like just yesterday there was on a tweet
#
somebody asked this question about
#
if somebody is high IQ or not.
#
shallow question. I sent it to my
#
friend Ajay Shah and I loved Ajay's
#
answer. Ajay's answer was that
#
if someone in a gathering of multiple
#
people can say at some point in
#
the conversation, I didn't understand that
#
please explain it to me.
#
Then you know that person is going to be a high IQ person.
#
Because I think there is a part dependence
#
to that. That if you have curiosity
#
that curiosity is coming from an
#
inherent humility that I don't know
#
so please tell me. And that inevitably
#
in the long run because you will ask more questions
#
and you will you know explore
#
of that. Tell me a bit about you know you spoke
#
about his epistemic framework. His way of thinking
#
of things from first principles and all of
#
that. You know just expand a bit more
#
on that. Like was there a particular
#
time or a particular subject
#
which you heard him speak about where you kind of began to
#
realize that haan framework hai.
#
Matlab hi aise hi nahi bol raha hai. Intuitive nahi hai.
#
There is a framework and then how can I
#
take parts of this framework and internalize it.
#
I actually don't know usne pada kya hai.
#
he breaks down an argument right. So let's
#
say you give proposition X
#
to him. You know he will have like
#
a nine question framework
#
Mai ye bolunga to ye hoga. Ye bolunga to wo
#
mujhe ye reply karega. Wo ye reply karega to
#
mai ye reply. He is like you know he has
#
that chess game in his brain. I don't
#
know how. And now it comes to me also
#
you know when I am writing something
#
even in the realm of politics or social life
#
that's how I am assuming it
#
happens with him also because I have never asked
#
him this. You know with all of us who
#
are clear in first principles.
#
Hota kaise hai ki hum ek proposition
#
create karte hain. Wo proposition
#
ke hum possible rebuttals
#
hojhte hain. Aur un rebuttals
#
hum hai kiya wo soste hain. And then
#
agar uspe dum hai to we change our prayers.
#
Agar dum nahi hai to we think of all
#
probable answers for those. Now
#
I mean I know Michael Schoemer is right that
#
otherwise smart people are also very smart at
#
justifying their own bullshit. So I know
#
that could be happening with me and my brother
#
and all of us also. I am not saying oh I am above
#
all of that. Please do not
#
misunderstand that. But I think with
#
him that's how he thinks. I think he is
#
when he makes a proposition right
#
he is like yeh hoga yeh hoga
#
yeh hoga yeh hoga. So iske
#
main answers dunga. And
#
I just saw him doing that since
#
ek cheez mein he is far better than me. He is in math
#
and physics. Usme main wada
#
nikhid tha. I would not say very bad
#
apne ko to quantum mechanics kuch samaj mein
#
nahi aati. Nahi aati. Wo log
#
bolte hain wo jo meme hai na
#
kuch samaj mein nahi aaya hai.
#
Agar sunke bahut achcha laga.
#
That kind of a thing. And
#
I am the first one to admit. I will put up
#
a hand in a conference and say
#
kya bol rahe ho kuch samaj mein nahi aara hai.
#
Haan quantum world hai. Yeh hai
#
Arre dono kyun hai. Matlab
#
wo thoda samajhne ko bo
#
complex lagta hai. I will put my hand up with yours
#
so it's okay. I don't get that stuff here.
#
Yeh wo nahi samajh mein aata hai. Haan
#
mere first principles bohot clear hai.
#
Ki mere ko argument breakdown karna
#
bohot achcha se aata hai.
#
That is ingrained in me
#
Indian epistemology and both Socratic
#
method both. And which is why I
#
find the Occidentalism rising
#
And I don't want to divert
#
us there but just had to
#
put my jib. We will eventually get there
#
anyway. I want to put that
#
jib against my society. That you know
#
a society that keeps talking about Orientalism
#
till some extent. I accept
#
but the amount of Occidentalism
#
that is creeping in this society
#
ancestors knew everything.
#
Teri ancestors ko sab nahi aata tha.
#
Teri ancestors ne teri ko humble
#
Tutsi arrogant tucha koi nahi hai.
#
west se kuch seekhna nahi chahta hai.
#
And to your point actually
#
you know, Bulleh Shah ne toh yeh kaha tha na.
#
Ki main ae hoi jaaniya ki
#
main kuch nahi jaaniya.
#
Think about the profundity of that
#
thought. You cannot express anything
#
Ae hoi jaaniya ki main kuch nahi jaaniya.
#
Aur yahaan se hota hai.
#
my brother breaks it down. Like
#
because I know that's the only way all of us
#
break it down. It's impossible
#
that and because I've asked this
#
question to others, I never have
#
these conversations with my brother. Beyond the point
#
hum log toh bhandne family ki baate karte hai.
#
You know, it's all that
#
but all of us break it down
#
like that. That's the only method.
#
How else does, I mean it's not like my brain
#
functions differently, right? We're at the end
#
of the day evolutionary processes work
#
in the same way for all of us.
#
And I'm looking at the ultimate level.
#
I'm not looking at the proximate level. The problem
#
with society is it's obsessed with the proximate.
#
By ultimate, I don't mean God.
#
I just mean ultimate evolutionary level.
#
level, we all break down arguments in a similar
#
way. Some people do it in a more better,
#
more efficient, more refined way
#
because over a period of time, they have
#
kind of finessed that art of
#
breaking things down. Some through
#
the Socratic method, some through
#
And both are equally wonderful in their own way.
#
my brother must be doing it the same way.
#
I actually truly don't know because I never asked
#
him. I just looked at him.
#
I'll suggest an experiment for you. Why don't you call him on your
#
podcast and do a 3 hour
#
episode with him as if he is a stranger?
#
That'll be really interesting.
#
Yeah, that would be so hard for me to do. That cognitive
#
flip for me will be so hard.
#
This time I'm going to his house so I'll do it.
#
I'll do it in person recording.
#
Now take me back to your childhood where
#
what I see in front of me is a fully formed
#
Kushal. And as you said,
#
you are the same. You are exactly
#
the person I expected you to be from watching
#
so many of your episodes and reading your book.
#
the formation of this fully formed Kushal.
#
As a kid, what kind of kid were you? Because you've
#
grown up in this household where there is
#
religion around. There is also inquisitiveness.
#
Your brother's influence
#
and all of that. So what were you
#
like as a kid? What did you want to be?
#
What was your imaginative universe?
#
I'm really talking teens and pre-teens
#
maybe. Not even to the point where you
#
go to college and all. But before
#
that, what are the things
#
that you know you're interested in and you love?
#
And so on and so forth.
#
I only love cricket, man. I was not even reading
#
a book till the age of 16,
#
17, 18. I don't even read books.
#
I used to play cricket.
#
I used to go to school,
#
my mom used to feed me, and all
#
of us cousins would stay around each other.
#
In Ghatkopar, Garhwade Nagar.
#
We were all next to each other in 3-4 buildings.
#
except for this one guy, Deepak, I said
#
because Dheeraj also, while he was
#
in school with me, he was in the other
#
division. So we would meet on and off.
#
Dheeraj, we... I was closer with Dheeraj
#
my entire life was all my cousins.
#
So I would finish my lunch,
#
And I didn't do anything in life.
#
We only played cricket.
#
Tendulkar is everything to us.
#
He is everything to us.
#
I saw Mike Tyson killing people
#
and there was a different kind of joy.
#
What did I aspire to be?
#
I always wanted to be an entrepreneur.
#
Always. It was so clear
#
Like when dad asked both my brother and I
#
my brother, what do you want to do?
#
I don't want to do business at all.
#
So he found his own way.
#
What do you want to do? I just want to do business.
#
I was very clear from day one.
#
I will become an entrepreneur.
#
Why do you think this was?
#
I just want to do my own work.
#
Entrepreneurship gives you freedom.
#
I want to work in the morning, I can work in the morning.
#
I want to work in the evening, I can work in the evening.
#
for me, the paradigm of freedom
#
It's the most important thing for me.
#
Freedom comes above everything else.
#
inspiration that I want to be a scientist, a doctor.
#
I did not want to be Sachin Tendulkar.
#
I just wanted to watch him.
#
around the age of 17-18.
#
So I became a very good drummer in a very short
#
time. But then I was such an
#
I was like I don't want to become an entrepreneur.
#
Because I loved making money.
#
Still, I would not say I have
#
lost my materialistic streak.
#
in my life where I know money loses its value.
#
with me that I can live a good life.
#
Now we are in the experimentation zone.
#
Because I don't want to be Ambani.
#
But I didn't want to be Bulleh Shah
#
that I want to roam the streets
#
I don't have that much.
#
I like AC and bed and all that.
#
You can be Bulleh Shah in a suit podcast.
#
I don't have any heroes in my childhood.
#
I don't have any heroes.
#
I want to be an entrepreneur because it gives you freedom.
#
the one thing I realized in my life is
#
most of your problems get solved.
#
money isn't everything is the biggest lie
#
but boy it gives you 95%.
#
this is my thought experiment to everyone
#
95% of your problems solved
#
Which one are you going to take?
#
thing that makes me make money more.
#
So yes, I love drumming.
#
I was like there is no money in it.
#
Then I don't like drumming.
#
I did business to earn money.
#
now there is some intellectual satisfaction
#
But it is very important to achieve that goal first.
#
The problem with people is
#
they philosophize too much
#
and they don't work. Which is why in my book
#
I never chant it. I live it.
#
He says you do your work
#
you don't have any right on the fruit.
#
Don't obsess about the goal.
#
Obsess about the action.
#
My goal was I need financial
#
attain financial security?
#
If you are a true effective altruist
#
the rational thing to do is what?
#
I know Sam Banquin Friedman has
#
hit on effective altruism.
#
It has become a bit of a cult.
#
it still makes sense at its core
#
that if your ultimate aim is to be
#
If you want to do charity
#
I am never obsessed about the goal.
#
I am only obsessed about the act of achieving the goal.
#
And for me the act was financial security
#
that I basically reach a place
#
in my life where I can do whatever I want to do.
#
Today I can stay 7 months in India
#
I am having eclectic discussions
#
First make a bank balance.
#
I am a firm believer in building a bank balance.
#
And I am also a firm believer
#
that once you reach that mental spot
#
that I don't want a private jet
#
I want to travel in another plane
#
I want to travel in another plane
#
I had a very non complicated childhood
#
it was such a typical Indian goal
#
I don't think so. Can you buy you affection?
#
because the rate at which AI changes
#
eventually I will be wrong
#
I think money can't give you
#
a brother's advice as of now
#
we don't have to achieve utopia
#
whether they are libertarian
#
whether they are Marxist
#
whether they are socialist
#
they are single point agendas
#
single point agendas don't work in life
#
most of us are complex beings
#
we are shackled by our own existence
#
so many variables around us
#
to come to this place from Chembur
#
there are so many things that in your life
#
are beyond your control
#
so my way of thinking is always
#
that at least I fix those
#
now my phase of life is where I am
#
those intellectual satisfactions
#
money can't buy me my best friend
#
the comfort of just sitting in a car
#
while I drive on the Mumbai freeway
#
and listening to a lecture of Osho
#
how money has to buy the petrol
#
but I think we could recreate that by
#
but the point is that experience
#
of my best friend and I
#
driving and experiencing
#
and awe while we are listening to
#
if I did not have money then
#
it's you know become fashionable
#
these days to dunk on rich people all the time
#
but I think some of the
#
greatest thinkers of our times
#
are actually people who have been entrepreneurs
#
like Paul Graham and like Jeff Bezos
#
and this sort struck me when I came across this great
#
and I read an interview of his
#
and I forget exactly what was in it
#
but the thought that struck me was that
#
businessmen and entrepreneurs are being
#
rewarded at a scale beyond anything
#
else in human history it is only
#
natural that our best minds will go into
#
that and obviously when they go into that
#
they learn a lot about that world
#
and many of them end up
#
changing the world as well
#
so I don't you know view a
#
pursuit of money in a bad way
#
at all like I have always held that
#
profit is the best form of philanthropy
#
you know you make money when you improve somebody's
#
life where you make them better off
#
everything is a positive sum game
#
so I want to ask you about that entrepreneurial
#
journey like what was it
#
like and what did you learn about
#
the world through that journey
#
the first thing I learned was
#
Thomas Sowell was right
#
life is about trade-offs
#
thought of Thomas Sowell
#
his core understanding of human
#
existence is so correct
#
every day I used to go to work
#
my dad and I always used to say this
#
we go to the factory and there is this
#
thali has all those problems that we have
#
to solve and we are just trading
#
off from one problem to
#
the other problem to the third problem to the fourth
#
problem that's the first thing
#
that entrepreneurship taught me
#
second thing that I learned from running
#
an enterprise is empathy
#
that when you care for people
#
around you they care for you
#
people ask me what is my
#
an entrepreneur is that today we've
#
shut down our old business it's all
#
shut we've exited that I
#
who work for us they'll call dad
#
or they'll call me and the
#
first thing they'll say is sir
#
we'll come back to the market
#
credit to dad there not me
#
our human capital the most
#
teaches you that if you
#
do that is and even there
#
is a trade off that if you take care of your
#
bottom line might suffer
#
a balance between the bottom line and taking
#
care of them at the same time
#
the arc of empathy cannot
#
your situation where your company shuts
#
down because your profits are gone
#
of empathy with the other
#
the one form being people who are working for me
#
I should care for them individually
#
down the business and then destroying
#
all their livelihoods anyway
#
so what is the most rational trade off
#
nothing teaches you that more than
#
entrepreneurship I mean
#
it depends I mean unless you're a sociopath
#
who just feels they are your slaves
#
which honestly I have met some
#
but my sense is in the long run that
#
would not be good for the bottom line either
#
no it is not but the thing is
#
new people right that arrogance
#
a lot of these entrepreneurs
#
that I have dealt with in 20
#
years today they are better human beings
#
not because of any other reason but
#
that is the beauty of capitalism
#
it beats you to be more
#
ethical people think capitalism
#
makes you unethical they don't realize
#
capitalism is driven by the
#
boss you go to any industrial area
#
in Maharashtra what is written
#
we need workers we need helpers
#
by sheer pressures of the market
#
more than double or something
#
which was notorious in that
#
the unorganized sector of my
#
industry textiles but today
#
you don't need the government every
#
time have some faith in the market
#
the market and have some faith in humanity
#
behind intervention I am not saying
#
I am living in a libertarian utopia I
#
don't I believe you need some
#
regulation responsible regulation
#
because your ability to deal with
#
problems because they are thrown at you
#
on a daily basis you become
#
better at human interaction because you
#
just have to right yeah I mean what are you
#
is you just have to go along it teaches
#
you human interaction it teaches
#
you problem solving it teaches you
#
competitiveness even when you are running
#
a paan ki dukhaan you are selling
#
how complex selling vada pav is
#
in our post office in Chembur
#
there is a Nandu vada pav guy
#
he must be a millionaire
#
but the complexity of his business
#
model he starts at 4 am
#
but the poor guy has to work
#
go everyday buy potatoes, chillies
#
and then make his famous chutney
#
because the taste is gone
#
and it's hilarious people are standing in line
#
now people are so lazy they keep
#
observing a vada pav guy
#
do nothing, just observe your
#
local vada pav guy how they run the business
#
you will see the complexity in that
#
corporate world, every entrepreneur
#
does it, you do it alone
#
me and you, we do this podcast
#
what is in our sourcing, equipment
#
the relationship we have with our editor
#
will he or she as an editor
#
if both Amit Verma and Kushal Mehra
#
as podcasters or content creators
#
mistreat them, ill treat them
#
so I mean entrepreneurship doesn't
#
it makes you a better human being
#
I mean what else could you want
#
we should celebrate entrepreneurship
#
when you know we are having
#
this rhetoric sometimes
#
we need to smash the caste hierarchy
#
everybody can't be an entrepreneur
#
it will make us a better society
#
Kunt agree with you more on all of this
#
Vada pav example that you gave
#
like Leonard Reed wrote a famous essay
#
called eye pencil and I can imagine
#
you know another essay eye dot vada pav
#
just talking about the complexity of
#
thinking of like for a moment
#
let me think of you as a vada pav person
#
right, you start working early in the morning
#
you are sourcing the potato, you are sourcing the onion
#
putting everything together and at the end you make
#
the vada pav and then it's over four and a half
#
hours, you are completely fagged, you go home
#
and the logical thing here would be
#
that when you do a vada pav
#
business, your dharma is to
#
give the best possible vada pav to your customer
#
devoted to it, your devotion goes
#
into it, like anybody who achieves
#
anything in any field, devotion I think
#
is a key word, it's part of the game
#
you are devoted, you get it done
#
but there is a danger there
#
and the danger there is that you become
#
that whole process morning to evening
#
getting the best vada pav to your customer
#
and the rest of the world goes by
#
and clearly that hasn't
#
so give me also a sense of
#
journey, that you know at some point you were the masters
#
in philosophy, tell me about that, tell me
#
about what were you interested in
#
why a masters in philosophy
#
you know you want to be an entrepreneur
#
you want to make money, why that, what
#
was going on, so give me a sense of your
#
intellectual life also beyond
#
and also in the days where it was
#
busiest for you, where you were most active
#
in those years, did you have to
#
set aside time for you where
#
you could read books and you could engage
#
or so, just take me through that journey
#
reading anything till the age of 18-19
#
guy in my class gifted me this
#
book by Michael Shermer
#
that just changed me man, that book
#
Michael Shermer has come only once
#
on my podcast, I don't think so even he
#
remembers he's come on my podcast because you know I am
#
one of those many people
#
these people taught me a lot
#
I have learnt from these people and
#
I narrate in my introduction, my story
#
hard line monotheism that just
#
charred me so much and then
#
I was like you know I became obsessed
#
like why is he converting me?
#
why am I going to hell?
#
I didn't know boss I was a Hindu
#
I didn't know hell existed
#
so people have to understand that you know
#
in the world which is dominated by
#
monotheistic blind spots
#
we are here and we are billion plus
#
but such is the world which is why in my book
#
I talk about the monotheistic blind spot
#
because the world just assumes
#
and it creates this Abrahamic
#
privilege that they just think
#
people refuse to believe
#
I did not read the Bhagavad Gita
#
I read the Quran and Bible first
#
and that even charred me
#
literally I say this line every time
#
I think my brain was like
#
talking says this great passage about the vengeful
#
God of the Old Testament
#
I'll link it from the show notes
#
and then I was like okay
#
they read read read read
#
and then I was like I read everything
#
a friend of mine and I were having
#
this discussion and he was like
#
you probably as well read
#
because you read so much
#
so then I went to Kalina
#
I am a 36 year old entrepreneur
#
I just need a degree in philosophy
#
I will come and give you an exam
#
I promise you I will pass
#
you have to attend class we will not let you
#
then I was like sir I am stuck
#
I desperately need a masters degree
#
kudos to that counselor
#
there at Mumbai University
#
go to IGNU for people like you
#
there was assignment submission
#
you don't even have to sit for 3 hours
#
I sat there for 1.5 hours
#
now someone will tell me
#
literally that was the reason
#
why reading habit like I said
#
I am a regimented person
#
because I don't love money that much
#
but I am not obsessed with it
#
once again I am not telling others
#
to not to be obsessed with money
#
we need more Ambani's and Adani's
#
and I want to state that on the record
#
we need more billionaires in India
#
there are 92 billionaires as per current record
#
I want more billionaires
#
we want more millionaires
#
I am happy with whatever I have
#
and then I reached a point I can tell you
#
by just being an entrepreneur
#
because I was reading on the side
#
started happening after 2008
#
where I was reading a lot
#
it's funny my wife was like
#
see you read and then you keep talking to me
#
please don't bug people
#
because I am the only one
#
listening to your pravachan
#
because now I know everything you think
#
it's a very interesting thing
#
I have never hidden any of this
#
I joined the friends of BJP
#
I found a new set of people
#
then I was one of the 6 people
#
who started India against corruption
#
if I forgot somebody else's name
#
I remember these people
#
I went out in Mayank Bhai's house
#
then I left all of that
#
I am too much of a maverick
#
to be shackled by an organization
#
now I am reading reading reading reading again
#
I went back to my reading mode
#
and then one day I had this conversation
#
I love mixed martial arts
#
cricket and mixed martial arts are my love of my life
#
I love mixed martial arts podcast that nobody watches
#
but I still do it because I love it so much
#
love is the best reason to do something boss
#
I get 3000 views on YouTube
#
I see violence, I see chess
#
he did this, now he will do this
#
he will move like this, he will do that
#
it's just the beauty for me
#
I just see such beauty in it
#
people were having discussions
#
because I had read my cultural books
#
between the monotheistic and the non-monotheistic
#
monotheism is god, angel
#
prophet, instruction mode
#
then there is yanne wal
#
so when I heard the podcast
#
I remember watching MMA
#
there is no interviewer
#
that amit varma will speak for half an hour
#
even if kushal has come on his podcast
#
and kushal's job is to listen
#
I didn't know anything about who is doing this in India
#
this very mic was my first ever mic
#
he is pointing to my backup mic, the blue yeti
#
I bought on amazon for 10,000 rupees
#
I think I have seen this
#
and even if it gets damaged
#
I am never going to let go of this mic
#
I remember my mom was like
#
did you buy a mic for 10,000 rupees
#
such a typical Indian mom
#
she was like you bought a mic for 10,000 rupees
#
you don't get a mic for 200 rupees
#
and then mom and dad didn't understand
#
but today it is so funny
#
my own parents watch my podcast
#
start it with the intent
#
I still don't run my podcast with the intent
#
I noticed I don't do company ad reads
#
I encourage everybody to do it
#
because what happened was
#
when I spoke to companies
#
they were like oh Kushal but you talk about religion
#
oh but you talk about sensitive issues
#
you criticize religion very brutally
#
because I in fact encourage people
#
I remember one person saying
#
you have used words like annihilate jati varna
#
then I can't advertise with you
#
a lot of people listen to you
#
Amit Verma is a far bigger
#
podcaster than Kushal Mehra
#
and I am so happy that that exists
#
I am not sure that's true but in any case
#
beer biceps has 10x audience of you and me combined
#
so what difference does it make
#
and you know the one thing
#
I don't know how I got this
#
somebody asked my strength
#
I celebrate people's success the most
#
I don't know from where it came
#
I see him as my younger brother
#
he has just moved to Mumbai
#
in fact one day I will organize
#
a hangout of 10 podcasters
#
I love Vinam Rai, Prakhar Gupta
#
I actually truly love them as
#
I see what my brother did to me
#
I just want them to be the best
#
and I want Vinam Rai to be
#
a multimillionaire, Prakhar to be a multimillionaire
#
the day I saw Vinam Rai
#
I remember messaging him
#
I am so happy to see you
#
because I can see it in your eyes every time you meet me
#
you actually wish me well
#
that feeling of camaraderie
#
and I feel it for everyone
#
I truly feel it for you
#
I will feel it for Ranveer Alabadia
#
podcasting is magnificent
#
I don't care if the world disagrees
#
but I can say with a lot of pride
#
that us podcasters in India
#
have created the greatest
#
community where we have discussions
#
where we can respect each other
#
in fact I see podcasters
#
like Abhijeet Chawda the other day
#
I was talking about Crumple Pop
#
we were in Chennai Lit Fest
#
and he was like bro what did you tell
#
I don't want to get money
#
we have a sense of brotherhood
#
we have a lot of sisters
#
when I heard that in the sport realm
#
I said this is so amazing
#
we are not cutting each other off
#
and we are inculcating patience
#
if you are a listener of a podcast
#
you are a patient person
#
60 second videos myself
#
I swear I don't know anything
#
I haven't seen my 60 second videos
#
I don't understand anything
#
will you solve your brother's problem
#
I will somehow find a time slot
#
if I don't get any time still I will read
#
for half an hour 45 minutes
#
if I have to go to the bathroom I will go
#
but I will read for sure
#
Shekhar Gupta's article
#
sometimes I read Tavleen Singh
#
sometimes I read Barkha
#
I respect R. Jagannathan
#
I read him and learned in Swarajya
#
and I listen to the podcast
#
I listen to my fellow podcasters or someone else
#
either in the form of audio book or audio podcast
#
5 hours of consumption is my rule
#
because I believe if you don't consume
#
you are not a good creator
#
which is why I love your way of working
#
most content creators don't read
#
because from the question
#
that he didn't read my book
#
he didn't read anything
#
because many times what has happened is I have covered a book
#
then I watch somebody else's
#
he didn't read the book
#
because he said the opposite
#
this is the rule of life
#
if you are writing an exam
#
if you are running a business
#
if you are doing a podcast
#
especially I love authors
#
the one set of people I respect the most
#
I mean I probably along with you in India
#
both of us combined cover the maximum number of books
#
and we should not be ashamed to say that
#
we literally are the two people who cover the maximum number of books
#
if you combine both of us
#
then India's podcasting landscape doesn't cover that much
#
both of us alone cover that much
#
probably we cover 10 times more than them
#
I will make copious notes on my laptop
#
a point that once we are done
#
this is how I have prepared for your book
#
it's not the money I make of the podcast after that
#
that heartfelt thank you
#
that is the greatest reward
#
I could have had in my life
#
because I know what hard work
#
that guy must have done to write that book
#
was when Vikram once told me
#
see I will go to very big platforms
#
they might end up having more
#
but I get a lot of satisfaction by talking to you
#
because I know you have read my book
#
and you have engaged with my thoughts
#
so for me that was the biggest victory
#
respected me because he was like
#
you have no idea, no one reads it
#
I love podcasts because
#
there is no time limit, do whatever you want
#
will you listen or not?
#
if they find us boring fine
#
if they don't find us boring fine
#
that's how I look at it
#
and I am happy to be corrected
#
so you know once again something that resonated with me
#
I tell my writing students
#
we have a large whatsapp group with more than 800 people
#
on it and I have banned
#
two things on it, one is talk of politics
#
because then people start bickering
#
and the other is negativity
#
like I have said don't shit on anyone
#
I don't care who it is, if you feel someone
#
isn't producing content or a podcast
#
or writing which you like
#
just tell yourself I will do better
#
I will show how it is done
#
rather than shitting on people
#
and I think what often happens is that
#
having that kind of positive can do attitude
#
then creates a virtuous cycle
#
where you actually begin to focus
#
more on doing rather than whining
#
and eventually the doers get together
#
and you have the kind of community that you were speaking about
#
that's bound to happen I wouldn't say
#
it's only that podcasting is young or that's why it's happening
#
I'm sure even within podcasting
#
there will one day be whiners but
#
the positive ones will get together and help each other
#
and that's kind of how it works
#
and what also sort of resonated
#
like you spoke about how
#
learn patience from podcasting
#
which was called meditation on form where I
#
spoke about how I think
#
podcasting changed me as a person
#
because what happens when you do a long form podcast
#
if I'm doing a 5 minute podcast
#
I don't even need to read the book
#
if I'm doing a half an hour podcast
#
I can take questions from chat gpt
#
if I'm doing a 5 hour podcast
#
I need to have read everything the person has done
#
I need to understand the field
#
and more importantly than that
#
I have to take my ego out of it
#
to use Stephen Covey's words I have to
#
listen to understand and not listen to respond
#
as so many people seem to do
#
really makes a difference
#
first form shapes the content
#
and then that shapes character
#
and I really believe that's true I believe if I was
#
doing 5 minute episodes I would just be a different
#
person and nothing wrong
#
with that also that is also fine you know
#
different kinds of expression demand
#
different kinds of forms
#
but what is sort of your
#
because luckily you came into it
#
in a sort of a free flowing kind of way
#
where you presumed inter preconceptions
#
how do I optimize my thumbnail
#
how do I optimize the length all of that
#
I'm presuming wasn't there and I would
#
say that then that's probably a great blessing
#
because then you find your own
#
flow and what works for you quicker than that
#
I started podcasting because I wanted to
#
I started podcasting not to make money
#
I had made money, mera ghar set hai
#
I have a few ideas and again
#
I think I have a few sensible things to say
#
I might say a lot of rubbish
#
and I'm open to being told that
#
somewhere down the line in my core
#
and I believe I can make a positive contribution
#
and I also find many things
#
I do way too many monologues for a
#
podcaster which is kind of weird
#
there's no such thing as way too many of anything
#
yeah but like it's very
#
but I do tend to do a lot of monologues also
#
for so many years I did not even
#
make thumbnails I didn't do anything
#
and then one day somebody said
#
and then it started there
#
I was very clear from day
#
one that I will not compromise on
#
what I do on my podcast
#
it's the freedom of not caring
#
ex-guest on the podcast
#
particular type of crowd
#
if they unsubscribe, they subscribe
#
I want to know how people
#
structure their arguments
#
it's not more about the learning process
#
that unse kuch seekunga, wo bhi hota hai
#
but for me the fascinating bit
#
why did they think like that
#
it's just you admire them growing up
#
someone I deeply respect
#
you know her journalism
#
is something that all young Punjabi boys
#
and asked Pindra Wale questions
#
I mean it's just amazing
#
these people you look up to and now
#
who the hell will not want to do that
#
that's such a baseline selfish human goal
#
it's just that I look up to different people
#
I look up to people who
#
I've always had that bent of
#
I'm a sucker for knowledge
#
so for me honestly it was so
#
uncomplicated why I did
#
any of this it is very uncomplicated
#
I am actually very simple
#
in this I just sucker for knowledge
#
platform provides me the freedom
#
through the good wishes
#
of the listener base now at least
#
I've reached the position where I can sustain myself
#
am I the biggest podcaster
#
in India no I have no delusions of grandeur
#
and now at least I can't be ignored
#
and the biggest achievement I think
#
I've never craved for mass appeal
#
when people who I think
#
in my head are sensible
#
I'm saying this I don't care
#
how many copies my book sells
#
but when people I respect
#
bits and bobs of the book till now
#
and they have messaged me that
#
and that gives me immense satisfaction
#
you know if I end up selling
#
it will not give me any satisfaction
#
for me I did not write the book for money either
#
I'm not doing anything for money
#
this is my ode to my culture
#
this is my battle with my culture
#
so as far as I'm concerned
#
I don't have any grand answer to this question
#
because I literally have a very simple answer
#
that I'm doing this for this
#
maybe you might say then what
#
if you get bored after 2 years
#
you will just go cold turkey
#
I would literally pack things up
#
and literally stop doing all of this
#
I'll find a new passion
#
actually in my mental stage
#
I'm doing this with that fakir mindset
#
eyes of now I'm loving every moment of it
#
with so many interesting people
#
non-theistic vocabulary
#
I actually feel blessed
#
it's actually a feeling of
#
people you look up to you can chat with them
#
I never thought I would
#
get to chat with all these people
#
they were just a figure in the TV
#
or a photo in the newspaper
#
and to have that feeling
#
when I spoke to Ram Sampat
#
a musician I admire a lot
#
Ram Sampat on a podcast
#
and say you gave this hit
#
I was like Ram how do you make music
#
I want to get into your mind and understand
#
because I was a fan of Ram Sampat
#
I'm speaking with Ram Sampat
#
now people might be like
#
he's not the biggest musician
#
because he's so freaking talented
#
thinking creative person
#
people don't realize he's the king of
#
people might not even know
#
but that process for me
#
explore a little bit of his head
#
what do you do, why do you do
#
and then to get to know him after that
#
as a person and to interact with him
#
what can we be more fortunate than this
#
that whatever you want to do
#
you're doing and for that
#
you're getting some money
#
how many people have that luck boss
#
I'm sure you must be going through the same emotions
#
yeah I go through absolutely the same emotions
#
but first of all I want to say you spoke about
#
reading bits and bobs of your book
#
I've read every bit and every bob
#
though if you ask me which bit or which bob
#
but I've read every bit and bob of your book
#
I'd like to share with you a frame
#
that I've really adopted for myself
#
and that I think speaks to exactly what I do
#
and will speak to you also
#
I actually learnt it from Paul Graham
#
and the frame basically is
#
Graham was giving this advice to startups
#
and which is that it is better to be loved by a few
#
and I have totally adopted this
#
because that love is so massive
#
and the engagement is so deep
#
that it doesn't matter if you don't have
#
mass popularity etc etc
#
it really doesn't matter
#
and that's exactly what you were just saying
#
it doesn't sell 50,000 copies
#
but if the 5,000 people
#
who do buy it, if they come to you and they say
#
we like the book, I think
#
I have a couple of questions
#
going back to what we were talking about earlier
#
like when you spoke about
#
at the age of 36 and then you spoke about being a maverick
#
I would say that there are
#
as it were and perhaps a causation
#
may also go the other way around
#
and one of those two things
#
is starting to read late
#
I started reading early
#
I was imagining that it is a great disadvantage
#
but I recorded a recent episode
#
which will actually release
#
a week after we are recording today
#
with this wonderful economist called
#
worked in a factory, her mother sold tea
#
at a tea stall at the Coimbatore highway
#
and she got to reading very late
#
17, 18, similar kind of thing
#
when she did that, she was asking questions
#
that nobody else was, for example
#
now you know in my life I have never asked
#
what is a stock market, you know
#
we just know what a stock market is
#
but she was asking those foundational questions
#
and because she asked foundational questions
#
going to first principles and root causes
#
and understanding those subjects
#
better than anybody else
#
and I think if you combine the gift of
#
inquisitiveness with beginning
#
without a base of knowledge where certain things are normalized
#
then I think that helps
#
and the second thing that I genuinely believe
#
you did not follow the normal path
#
to doing an MA and getting into academia
#
I actually feel that destroys people
#
that completely destroys people
#
you got there of your own volition
#
through whatever path you took
#
and therefore you were not part of the herd
#
and that allowed you to
#
that forced you to think differently but equally
#
it allowed you to think differently
#
so does this make sense to you
#
I don't have any prior of reading early
#
so I cannot say definitively
#
because in my case I am as good
#
every time the one benefit
#
I had I think reading late in my
#
view is that you've lived
#
a certain number of years
#
so your baseline inferences
#
are very pop culture-ish
#
influenced by evolutionarily
#
because you've not read anything
#
right so you're just relying on
#
what's evolutionarily stable
#
like maybe I'm doing a post-hoc
#
rationalization it could be that's a beautiful
#
way of putting it carry on
#
is that your priors are basically
#
what are stable strategies around you
#
then when you start reading
#
okay then you start peeling the layers
#
of the onion maybe that's what has happened
#
with me that's the only way I can look
#
my childhood or my teens
#
were like basically doing nothing
#
just playing cricket that's all I would do
#
were basically what was
#
the prior around me right
#
somebody decided Y and I
#
would just be like who cares
#
I mean okay you know they must
#
have thought of something I mean I
#
really did not have an opinion I
#
honestly did not have an opinion
#
so when I started reading
#
and I started having opinions
#
much better position because I had more
#
when you start reading at a very young
#
can make you a far better thinker
#
it can also reduce your priors
#
it can reduce your exposure to
#
evolutionarily stable strategies
#
I'm glad I did not read the god illusion
#
because if I would have read that
#
maybe I would not have understood the beauty
#
of many other things that religion has to offer
#
it's because I read all these things
#
go through the grind of a religious
#
religious upbringing is the right word
#
and then when I read the god delusion
#
in spite of my nominally
#
religious and very liberal upbringing
#
I became for no reason a very angry
#
militant atheist so imagine
#
if you do that at the age of twelve
#
thirteen what would that like I
#
I would actually discourage kids to read
#
I think you have to go through
#
because that friend stays in Mumbai
#
they had an incident in their house
#
away and the daughter was shattered
#
which is what I try to do in my book
#
the difference between me
#
and a new atheist is this
#
which is why I don't call myself an atheist
#
a new atheist will try to
#
and make that child into even
#
was a typical dharmic reaction
#
why do you want to stop
#
believing in God are your reasons
#
and that slowly but surely
#
you should have good reasons to leave
#
you can't just go because I have
#
spoken about wannabe atheism
#
because my peers are atheists I think
#
it's cool and I'm an atheist
#
that's the worst reason to become
#
an atheist at that sense
#
kid had a conversation with me
#
the funniest thing was my friend was like
#
you know having that Johnny Lieber expression
#
kind of expression he had on his face
#
I'm not taking sides I'm just
#
I just think it's a bad way
#
see divinity in anything
#
but I don't want a child to convert
#
when the child is vulnerable
#
the decision has to be informed
#
a decision and which is why I
#
hate the concept of proselytization
#
at my core because it's so predatory
#
you are at your vulnerable core
#
and then says come to me
#
it's such a core pathetic
#
narrate the incident of
#
my experience with proselytization
#
and then suddenly they are trying to save me
#
I'm like save me from what
#
it was so jarring for me
#
for the context of the listeners
#
in his book Kushal talks about how
#
when he went abroad first a
#
Christian person and then I think a Muslim person
#
tried to kind of save your soul
#
I was like why is this happening
#
I remember what went in my head
#
even today I can recall
#
I remember I was in a small university
#
Michigan Tech in Houghton
#
sorrow and anger at the same time
#
it's just not a thing in our culture
#
I'm not saying you should
#
make proselytization illegal before somebody
#
it's just not a done thing especially
#
if you're preying on the young
#
what answers did the girl give by the way
#
and then eventually today she is a believer
#
she didn't lose her faith
#
she was through the phase
#
she was angry, she was lashing out at her God
#
why did you take that person away from me
#
those are not the reasons you
#
just like believers have the wrong reasons
#
once you know the primordial soup
#
once you understand natural selection
#
and you understand determinism
#
and the big bang and all those things
#
the probabilities of having
#
at least an Abrahamic God
#
as far as the neti neti Brahman is concerned
#
they can't prove it, I can't disprove it
#
so let's just say both sides don't know
#
boss, I don't want to be
#
then what's the difference between me and
#
I refuse to buy the idea that
#
an evolutionarily stable strategy
#
at a game theoretic level has been tested
#
Robert Sapolsky has written extensively
#
and there are nuances in that as well
#
and Robert Sapolsky has a great
#
Robert Axelrod also wrote a book called The Evolution of Cooperation
#
and he's got great work with Robert Rivers
#
Gnostic Baba trying to convert people
#
I don't want to be that
#
like when Peter Boghossian wrote
#
the manual for creating atheists
#
I would never write a manual
#
I don't want to create Gnostics
#
he is an atheist, I am Neri Ishwarwadi
#
it's just, I mean it's so alien to me
#
and I say this with all seriousness
#
I could be wrong that that is the way
#
I convert them, maybe that is the way
#
there's a quote by Douglas Adams
#
I love where he's talking about how once he
#
discovered evolution he could not possibly believe
#
in God obviously and he said
#
I take the awe of understanding
#
over the awe of ignorance
#
and that's such a beautiful quote
#
I don't know if Boghossian meant his
#
but the way that I would sort of put it is
#
I don't mind seeing a playbook
#
for promoting science and skepticism
#
I think those are healthy
#
though obviously in the case of the young kid
#
I think you kind of did the right thing
#
just asked the question and she figured it out for herself
#
I can't pinpoint a time when I
#
was an atheist and I was never a new atheist
#
in this sense or a militant atheist
#
like the way I talk about
#
atheism is that it is not a belief
#
that there is no God because you can't prove a negative
#
it is an absence of belief
#
you know and there's this lovely
#
a letter writer to the economist had once said
#
that atheism is no more
#
a religion or a belief system
#
than not collecting stamps as a hobby
#
you know so I kind of think of it
#
like that and therefore it's very benign
#
I don't believe because
#
hey I don't believe in Santa Claus or I don't believe in fairies
#
it is a very similar thing
#
but I don't go around trying to convert people
#
also with the zeal of my thing
#
that you know be an atheist or
#
do Keto etc etc whatever your
#
particular faith might be
#
you know you do what you do and if people ask you
#
you tell them your reasons
#
uncomfortable with the word atheism
#
an ism though I know many people
#
will treat it like that and we will elaborate
#
on all of that after a quick break
#
where we'll talk about your book and actually there
#
is so much to talk about and you have unlimited
#
time so we will talk about all of it
#
to showcase the work of students and
#
vibrant community interaction
#
in the course itself through four webinars
#
spread over four weekends I share
#
all I know about the craft and practice of
#
clear writing there are many exercises
#
much interaction and a lovely and
#
lively community at the end of it
#
the course cost rupees 10,000 plus GST
#
if you're interested head on over to register
#
at indiancard.com slash clear writing
#
that's indiancard.com slash
#
clear writing being a good writer
#
doesn't require God given talent
#
just a willingness to work hard and a clear
#
idea of what you need to do
#
welcome back to the scene in the unseen I'm still chatting with
#
Kushal we haven't fought we are still here
#
as it were and you know something you said in the break
#
reminded me of a question I wanted to
#
ask you earlier during your wonderful
#
answer but then I completely forgot because there were so many
#
things to talk about and during the
#
break you were telling me about how there is this
#
housing society where it gave you
#
a lot of joy to see that senior
#
citizens are playing cricket with each other
#
they book the space and they play cricket with each other
#
and they sledge each other and you
#
said that is how men bond
#
about male friendship in general I wrote
#
a newsletter post on it yesterday
#
and one of the things I was exploring
#
there is that male friends don't often
#
to each other enough like there was
#
a provocative insta post by
#
someone which I linked to where he basically
#
he was like when was the last time
#
you said I love you to a male friend you know
#
you will say it to your wife to your parents
#
to your kids but rarely to
#
male friends it's so rare and
#
that's part of a discussion in my writing group
#
as well about how men bond about how women
#
bond and a lot of men were like hey we don't just
#
do that we don't bond like that we
#
bond in different ways and
#
could give for this is reveal preferences
#
if I like you I will show you through my actions
#
I don't need to you know express it in words
#
and you mentioned how you know two
#
of your closest childhood friends are still
#
close friends they live next door to you etc
#
etc tell me a little bit
#
is this one of the things that you're intentional
#
stay in touch with my friends I've got to
#
you know every once in a while call
#
you know do you just go with the flow
#
first of all I think the word friend has been
#
he's my friend he's my friend he's my friend
#
actually you don't have more than five
#
friends you have acquaintances
#
acquaintances some very good
#
acquaintances some nominal acquaintances
#
some annoying acquaintances
#
acquaintances in a pejorative way
#
but the friend is a very different
#
someone whom you can share
#
anything and literally everything with
#
and my two best friends you know closest
#
friends of mine which is Deepak and Dheeran
#
they literally know everything
#
that goes on in my life like
#
like we talk about everything
#
respect for each other why men do
#
it in a different way there are reasons
#
I mean now somebody might go all
#
that's how men are taught to be
#
have you figured out the
#
internal genetic makeup also
#
differences and many other things that
#
those like I said right
#
it's another person who I
#
consider a friend Harsh Madhusudan
#
Gupta, uski society mein hota hai
#
so you know Harsh and I have this beautiful system
#
society or sometimes he comes
#
to my side so when we go to his side
#
hum uski society mein walk karte hain aur
#
gapa maarte hain mein aur Harsh
#
you know we have this thing raat ko once
#
Harsh's daughter and wife have slept wo meko
#
phone karta hai kya kar raha hai aaja and then we just
#
walk around and walk karte karte
#
us din society mein they have a cricket
#
age group mein aur dhulai
#
chalu hai ek dusre ki matlab
#
that was friendship that was bonding
#
Harsh and I were you know I just looked at Harsh
#
cheez chahi hai apne ko
#
hai mere father ka bhi ek must hai morning
#
walkers group hai unka whatsapp group bhi hai
#
hain usme aur wo log bhi
#
ek dusre ki khichai karte hain morning walk mein
#
that's just the male way
#
khichai karna ek dusre ki kuch gali
#
deke khichai karte hain
#
some don't swear and do
#
the male way of bonding is khichai
#
wo kya hai no mia bibi razi
#
to tu kyo phanne khaan ban rahe bhai
#
kar rahe main hi kaira ho ki the
#
people who say I love you to each other are
#
if you want to say I love you to the other
#
person there is nothing wrong
#
like I'll give you an example
#
you know somebody who poor guy
#
you know he read my whole book
#
tried to help me his name is
#
Nirmalya Datta so you know he just
#
got married so I you know
#
when he said dek gandu meri bhi shadi ho gayi
#
so I was like congratulations
#
I am so happy that you are going to suffer
#
too and his reply was yeah
#
I love you too now tell me
#
he knew what I was telling him right
#
which is why he said yeah I know
#
I don't need to I don't need
#
women to be like me or not be like
#
men don't need to be like women or not be
#
think this expectation na har cheez
#
let's just keep things simple
#
the ultimate aim of life
#
should be kya main khush hu
#
vasta mein when you reach that
#
age what do you crave the most
#
as a human being to play cricket with other
#
people in vriddha vasta
#
do men not cry when they are near and
#
I have seen my close friends cry
#
when they lost their parents
#
I have seen my cousins cry when they lost
#
they grieve in a different way
#
I am not saying there is no
#
valuable contribution there
#
but I just feel sometimes it's
#
paralysis by over analysis
#
I come from a point of freedom
#
have the freedom to mold me I should have
#
the freedom to just say
#
end point is the net result is
#
that man happy and is he
#
then him not saying I love you should not
#
especially the post social media society
#
all kinds of absurdities
#
which includes both of us also
#
saying we are away and we are not part of
#
what happened to not wanting to
#
mold people in your image
#
what happened to just loving people
#
for how they are with their flaws
#
and we belong to a culture
#
where even our gods are flawed
#
we show our devi devatas
#
we don't forgive the gods we forgive ourselves
#
if we lose then accept the flaws
#
beyond the point I think why think so much
#
if someone says I love you
#
they should say it, if someone doesn't say it
#
they shouldn't say it, what matters for me is
#
that he is a good person
#
and will he play cricket with me
#
women have a different way of dealing with these things
#
I don't want to change women either
#
I just don't want them to change me either
#
it is all about mutual respect
#
I agree with all of this
#
but it is a separate track
#
from the one that I was running on
#
so we passed each other in the distance
#
my point was not a prescriptive one
#
that men should cry more or men should show emotion more
#
play into each other here
#
we are of course hardwired in a particular way
#
that we have to signal strength
#
and therefore we don't show emotion
#
and then culture adopts that
#
and that is a whole patriarchy thing
#
where we are also victims of patriarchy
#
but I think the danger can often
#
come from many men not being able to
#
acknowledge their emotions
#
follow them out from the inside also sometimes
#
so being comfortable with whom you are
#
showing my affection from my
#
near and dear ones is not a problem
#
not even wanting to hug their parents in the public
#
they may not even realize it themselves
#
so their machismo will be real for them
#
I am the strong guy, I am the provider
#
I don't show emotion may be real for them
#
but in some deep sense they are lying to themselves also
#
and my dad kisses me publicly
#
and I kiss my mom publicly on the forehead
#
I don't have any problem with that
#
our family, we show affection
#
we are a very expressive family
#
I don't know how to say
#
but it is not something
#
that I have thought very deeply about
#
to be very honest to you
#
I kind of agree from where you are coming from
#
that sometimes society kind of
#
and if some men don't cry
#
I rather have them not making others cry
#
that is what I am more interested in
#
you don't have to cry yourself
#
they don't make others suffer
#
I think to me that is the more
#
if they don't cry themselves
#
it could lead to second order effects
#
and I think you would be right
#
so we should encourage a culture of empathy
#
I think as long as we encourage
#
how it gets expressed should not matter
#
we should have a culture of empathy
#
the empathy aspect of it
#
and the answers are very interesting about
#
when they began to feel comfortable
#
I almost feel like I don't need to ask you that
#
and correct me if I am wrong
#
but one part of your journey
#
you know when you spoke about your journey earlier
#
it felt that one half of it
#
which is your self image
#
happened in a very smooth kind of way
#
where you had the entrepreneurial energy
#
you decided to make money
#
and then simultaneously there was intellectual curiosity
#
and it's like a very linear thing
#
and there were never any doubts or a crisis there
#
of being comfortable in your own skin
#
is that we spend too much of our lives
#
having this anxiety about what others will think of us
#
the impression I got from talking to you
#
for the past two hours is that you don't give a shit
#
you never gave a shit about this either anyway
#
so neither of this were
#
but as far as you know that self image is concerned
#
let's talk about atheism now
#
and get to your book gradually
#
but what was that personal journey for you like
#
what were the kind of questions you asked yourself
#
I remember at one point
#
16 years ago when my mother died
#
that as an atheist I have
#
far fewer consolations open to me
#
than a believer would have
#
and yet at the same time it's not a choice I made
#
I can't help it if you don't believe
#
you don't believe you don't believe in Santa Claus or fairies
#
you don't believe in God it's an absence of belief
#
so what was that process
#
for you like how did you define your atheism
#
in my case my skepticism or my disbelief
#
a very gradual thing like
#
I was not overly religious to begin with
#
not agree with these claims because
#
I don't see the evidence for it
#
like I talk about it in the book
#
it was like oh I was in deep thought or anything
#
it was literally just one word
#
I told mom I don't believe in all this
#
and mom said okay let's have breakfast
#
I mean what should I do nothing happened
#
it was just a gradual thing
#
atheist mode came after
#
they tried to convert me
#
if they would not have converted me
#
the probabilities of me
#
reverting back to disbelief
#
were equally there I think
#
I would have reverted back also
#
it's just that when somebody tried to convert me
#
right and then I was like now
#
I'm gonna read this stuff
#
and then when I read it all I was like
#
this to makes no sense at all
#
and then I went into the angry atheist mode
#
a disbeliever I still I would consider
#
myself a disbeliever who will walk into a
#
temple and bow down to a murti
#
I don't see it as a problem
#
I mean what the believer
#
in the murti sees and what I see
#
in the murti does not have to be the same
#
look at the thing in a very different way
#
of it is what I'm trying to say
#
very benign like it just
#
I was like okay it adds
#
and it doesn't harm me in my life
#
so I choose not to believe it
#
my disbelief stems from
#
kind of a situation I just don't care
#
I don't do it and because there was
#
literally zero resistance
#
so it just stayed and then
#
one thing led to the other and then
#
the proselytization and then the reading
#
as a rabid militant atheist actually
#
happened after I read Hindu texts
#
I would not have reverted
#
back from rabid militant
#
atheism to normal benign
#
it's only after I read a pantheon
#
of religions like I think even
#
because when I read Maimonides I was like
#
this guy is talking a little sensible
#
kind of a situation he was a believer
#
was reforming Judaism or Judaic
#
thought and I was like no
#
this guy makes sense okay fine
#
and I read Thomas Aquinas
#
you know the Brahma Sutra Bhashya
#
Bhagavad Gita Upanishads and many
#
was like okay now I don't need to be
#
the Bible Old Testament made
#
are in love with each other why are you
#
acting like Chaudhary why are you like this
#
I had all these questions
#
not faced any of this in my upbringing
#
and it would be a lie to say
#
Hindu's upbringing might face caste
#
they will not face all of this
#
oh you are atheist no they don't
#
let's not lie maximum questions
#
so how do you derive your
#
morality from and how do you know
#
what is good and bad these are very
#
these are not angry interjections
#
a vocal atheist or a vocal
#
people want to call for me I don't use the
#
word atheist for myself but
#
to a lot of corners where we
#
end up having being part of
#
communities skeptic communities
#
I just don't I have clearly
#
atheist I came across were on the
#
could not relate to them at all
#
I could not relate to the
#
people on Nirmukta either
#
which was like a full blown
#
I don't know what somebody
#
are lashing out and I never lashed out
#
at anyone I had nothing to lash out
#
I was not pissed off at Shriram
#
he didn't do anything to me
#
I will tell you I had this weird face of me
#
being a Satan worshipper he was so
#
stupid like one day I realized
#
I was like why do I hate
#
God and like Satan because if God is
#
not real how is Satan real that is so
#
I was like Kishal you are such a
#
you doing and that day it all
#
snapped out that's all it
#
was like you just learn
#
I was that kid who was thrown into the pool
#
because they knew you will not sink
#
and then I would just hit a bump here and a bump there
#
and it was a very normal
#
happened everything happened
#
post hoc through reading
#
today is because of my reading
#
it has nothing to do with my upbringing
#
my upbringing was superb
#
I had the best parents I had the best brother
#
I had no reason to be mad at
#
God let me put it this way
#
God was not a problem for me
#
I still lost faith in him
#
unfortunate and I say that in a book like
#
my reasons for disbelief are so boring
#
that you know it doesn't make
#
because it's such a stupid reason to lose your
#
will he was like you are not in my life
#
you don't have any importance
#
whatever I want my parents do
#
everything is in the material realm
#
your emotional needs are also
#
fulfilled by my parents
#
I didn't have that need
#
so why should I believe when I don't want it
#
like a lot of times people say no
#
there are no atheists in
#
a foxhole if I was in a foxhole I'll still
#
be there I just don't have
#
that need I don't know if I'm
#
making sense like I don't need a God in my
#
plays no role in my life like
#
no my parents are there
#
I don't want another father
#
in fact you have two fathers
#
yeah so I just don't feel
#
the need for a deity in my life
#
firstly you got to stop being
#
defensive and say that my reasons are not
#
interesting I actually found your journey in your book
#
quite interesting as I mentioned at lunch I
#
like the personal narratives in that a lot and I'm
#
enjoying this conversation for those reasons also
#
and another thing that strikes me is
#
embark upon their journey after reading
#
the books whereas in your case you embarked
#
upon the journey first and then read
#
the books to figure out what the hell is going on
#
and I've read a lot on atheism
#
but a part of your book
#
which was sort of a new argument
#
for me and which I'm still processing and
#
evolve differently in the West
#
under monotheistic religions
#
and over here for example
#
you use the term angry atheist and
#
I have come across many of them online and in
#
books I have not come across a single
#
one in real life because I've just been in India
#
and all the fellow atheists that I've met over here
#
we are all chilled out benign people
#
we are not screaming at anyone we are what we are
#
and we don't discuss it openly or want
#
to proselytize it and you
#
explanation of why it is a
#
case that in monotheistic
#
ends up being a more violent
#
act of debaucher because the religions
#
are fundamentally exclusionary and etc etc
#
a different shape there at least when it starts
#
so just elaborate on that for me
#
so you know I'm so happy
#
that you picked on to this
#
an atheist from the monotheistic background
#
would not understand this nuance
#
you know why you could understand it is because you
#
are from the same background
#
so it took you two minutes to understand this
#
and I know because I can
#
people are not watching us but I know
#
because I can see it in your eyes that when you
#
because it has happened to me as well
#
and when I tell people they are like
#
this is not how it happens we are like
#
this is not happening to us why
#
because just think about it
#
if there was so much anger then
#
if you hate something so much
#
best possible steel man
#
in courts because it is still a secondary source
#
not a primary source but
#
then it is secondary for every darshan mentioned
#
in the sarva darshan sangraha
#
that is point number one
#
that shri ram should not do this
#
see these are random stories but the point is
#
that what is your lived experience
#
cannot be disconnected from your
#
the theological grounding is crystal clear
#
grounding was antagonistic
#
the theological grounding was very clear
#
that there are different kinds of people
#
and this difference between
#
what I call Abrahamic atheism
#
because what is atheism
#
at the end of the day? it is a negation
#
it is a negation of the supra
#
set that dominates the society
#
or we can agree on that
#
at least right? that if
#
atheism is a negation of the supra
#
set of that society then the supra
#
set of Abrahamic society
#
monotheism is very aggressive
#
ladies and gentlemen read
#
don't trust a word that I say
#
go read the Quran, read the Bible
#
monotheistic pantheon of books
#
you should read and you will be like
#
again this is not an apology
#
for Hinduism because if you read my book
#
you will know I am not an apologist of Hinduism
#
appreciate is there are two
#
concepts that are unique to monotheism
#
we have heresy which I try to
#
explain in the book even when I quote the
#
Manusmriti or the sixth mandala I have
#
not quoted in the book but the sixth mandala
#
the point is that is heresy
#
and the punishment is so benign
#
he will do that again and again
#
basically yes he is mad
#
what is he doing he is mad
#
I am giving you the definition
#
what happens in blasphemy and apostasy
#
so when you reject that
#
what the hell were you thinking was going to happen
#
the reaction was going to be as
#
vicious and visceral as the source
#
I actually had to make a t-shirt
#
is Abrahamism without the god
#
it is literally the same
#
I don't agree with their evolution denial
#
and ironically they are the only one
#
in the entire Indian pantheon that denies
#
evolution every other Indian
#
panth accepts evolution
#
ISKCON was like no I am different
#
and people who want to question it
#
go and read Prabhupada ji's lectures
#
they clearly write and deny evolution
#
where will amit come from
#
antagonism should be in the source code
#
when the source code is
#
at best pulling your ear
#
you are not going to be antagonistic
#
at worst you are going to be like
#
you know in Mumbai language also
#
India that has not done a census after that
#
we have survey after survey showing
#
they are no religion in India
#
and I again I am not speaking
#
for every Hindu skeptic but if
#
someone came to my house and I know
#
because over my activism
#
over the years because I am a disbeliever
#
who is an activist for disbelief
#
I always give the analogy of
#
and someone has intestinal problem
#
do chemotherapy for everyone
#
that new atheism got something wrong
#
you are making him a religion
#
no I will not agree with Richard Dawkins
#
he is at his home I am at my home
#
I don't have any problem with you
#
I have learnt a lot from him
#
but I will not agree with this
#
because if my society has not been antagonistic
#
to me then what I will do is
#
I will first misdiagnose my society's
#
problem which could be something else
#
then I will screw my entire society over
#
what they clearly have done
#
when they threw the baby out with the bath water
#
the words were religion poisons
#
everything these are not my words
#
these are the famous words of one of the four horsemen
#
religion poisons everything
#
who said religion poisons everything
#
you threw the baby out with the bath water
#
the religion is right back with
#
well just a meaning seeking species
#
we are a congregational
#
meaning seeking species
#
we are not pre agriculture
#
or else go and live like a buga buga
#
then roam in the jungle
#
then don't live in the city
#
you will live in the city and do buga buga
#
tell me one thing pre agriculture was in the jungle
#
that was also not there
#
see pre agriculture all the gods were animistic
#
I am sure you must have studied anthropological literature
#
something happens post agriculture
#
agriculture is the literal breaking point
#
agriculture happens and
#
how do we control these people
#
they have come together
#
religion is the most stable
#
unnecessary in the lives of people
#
it is the technical term
#
you don't find a church going vokia
#
so let's make a new religion
#
and the worst part of this new
#
at least in the old religion
#
if you consider muhammad
#
at least later it's heaven
#
everyday living existence
#
to their credit the hell is there
#
in this new godless monotheism
#
in this world as humans
#
baba mujhe nahi chahiye ye
#
I separate myself from this lot
#
and I will blame the new atheists
#
and I know I will hurt a lot of my new
#
with the concept of religious privilege
#
in my book if you had noticed
#
where you live in, in your subset
#
still has that edifice of religiosity
#
see I always give the simple analogy
#
imagine a society where
#
Amit Verma and Kushal Mehra
#
in a group of 50 people are the two
#
they are like what are you doing
#
and they will be like you come
#
and then we keep on saying
#
they are like yes he is mad
#
where in that 50 room group
#
40 are Amit Verma and Kushal Mehra
#
how will that group function
#
has lost its anchor completely
#
they will create great art
#
what are you saying boss
#
this is the other answer
#
so I once remember a very popular new atheist
#
I am not going to take names
#
they will play sport man
#
I can't believe that came out
#
from your mouth and he is like what do you mean
#
sport is actually very right wing
#
sport is a very right wing thing
#
you can check the polls 50% and above
#
are actually religious people
#
they still do religion my dear friend
#
before the enlightenment
#
whether it is sculpting it is all religion
#
one thing that was their source
#
I am not saying for you to believe in it
#
I am saying have the intellectual
#
and just admit Houston we have a problem
#
the atheistic community
#
has created through atheism plus
#
their course I will be the first person
#
to change my book and say they proved me
#
if I was a betting man I am not
#
betting on them proving it wrong
#
because there is no scope
#
old religions no matter how nasty they are
#
will we agree every religion has a redemption story
#
tell me where wokism has a redemption story
#
can you redeem yourself
#
once you are branded a racist, sexist, homophobe,
#
patriarchal piece of crap
#
how do you plan to live your life
#
and how can atheists wash
#
their hands away by saying I didn't do it
#
religious people saying I didn't
#
do it boss your meme did it
#
you have to correct your
#
meme you have to take some
#
responsibility for the meme
#
you are participating in
#
I take responsibility for that
#
then prove me wrong tell me how new
#
atheism has not led to this
#
new atheism led to church reduction
#
that sport and music and art
#
and culture was so good
#
then why are these things increasing
#
as you and I are speaking
#
the university system in the west
#
taken over by this ideology
#
but I feel bad for those
#
poor kids it's so obvious
#
of a god they are in search of
#
a messenger or a prophet
#
it's so obvious they are looking for
#
they have to put the boat on the shore but
#
they can't find the shore
#
sometimes they go here sometimes they go there
#
they are looking for a meaning in their life
#
people look down on them
#
18-20 year old children
#
I could be wrong and I am open to being corrected
#
but also push back a little bit
#
but even before that for our listeners
#
if they don't catch all of the context
#
let me just say that by the fourth
#
apocalypse of the four horsemen of
#
Kushal is referring to Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris
#
Dan Dennett who died recently
#
who had he been alive today
#
would have been eviscerating the
#
works in every column he wrote
#
I really miss him, remarkable writer
#
and I think all of these guys are great
#
and the reason I won't be
#
is that while I do agree
#
that one sees a lot of what you call angry
#
atheism abroad, I think part of it
#
at least from my point of view
#
that image is because there is
#
a little bit of selection bias there
#
because if I am sitting in India
#
who am I most likely to hear, I am most likely to hear
#
I would imagine there is also a quiet mass
#
of atheists who are like me who are chilled out
#
who don't really get involved in all of this
#
really want to push back on
#
and this was the only part of your book
#
where I really had a push back
#
a lot of it was educative for me
#
and a lot of it was stuff I agreed with
#
is that wokeism is a consequence
#
of what you call new atheism
#
the way I see it, wokeism is a consequence
#
and a successor to Marxism
#
and the commonality that they have is
#
in terms of groups instead of individuals
#
it is the same ideology
#
just the particular groups have changed
#
so when you talk about new atheism
#
church attendance and then wokeism emerging
#
out of that, I don't agree
#
I think it might be a little bit of wet streets cause
#
I think the roots of wokeism lie much
#
further back in Marxism
#
and in postmodernism and all of that
#
and I should also at this point
#
state that this is where I agree with you
#
I agree that wokeism is a poison
#
for those who haven't heard me speak of it before
#
let me just kind of elaborate on that
#
I keep speaking on it so that's meant ironically
#
point on wokeism is that wokeism
#
begins where liberalism ends
#
because classical liberalism the way
#
I see it and I think you would agree with me
#
is about the autonomy of the
#
individual, it's about individual rights
#
it's about freedom, wokeism
#
it divides everybody into groups
#
into identities they have no control over
#
it puts narratives of victimhood
#
and oppression on them and then you are
#
stuck with those narratives like you said there is
#
no redemption, like you said there is
#
the original sin of privilege and
#
thinking about the world is not
#
just a simplistic narrative but it is
#
also a sign of intellectual laziness
#
it means you found a narrative that
#
seems to explain everything and therefore
#
you don't examine any further and in
#
that sense it's exactly like religion
#
so I agree that there is a
#
god-shaped hole in the world somewhere
#
new religions would obviously come
#
up to fill that god-shaped hole
#
even if it doesn't have a god at the center of it
#
I agree with all of that, I just don't agree with the
#
causation that I think it came out of a
#
different sort of intellectual tradition
#
from the far left of academia
#
and I feel it's unfair to blame
#
poor Christopher Hitchens for this because he
#
would have taken his pants off if he were here today
#
I agree with you, I think we are saying the same thing
#
when I say new atheism led
#
to wokeism, it's not that new atheism
#
literally intellectually morphed into
#
wokeism, you are saying it created the god-shaped hole
#
it is responsible for creating the hole
#
the hole was going to be taken over
#
by someone and what is the one thing
#
the only thing in common
#
is the lack of belief in
#
that's the only thing common in them
#
I am not saying that wokeism is
#
the intellectual origin of
#
new atheism, it's the consequence
#
and that's why they are way more to be
#
blamed than the Marxists
#
because Marxists were like
#
ok, the room is empty, we are here
#
why would I be, why am I mad at them
#
and not at the Marxists
#
because they have emptied the room
#
I have two things to say to this
#
a Christopher Hitchens could see
#
that the room is getting emptied
#
and he will be dead, even if he could see all that
#
I think he would still empty the room
#
and indeed my value, is a search for truth
#
and you are going to say what you feel to be the truth
#
and you have to be honest to that
#
intellectual journey that you are on
#
so I wouldn't blame them for it
#
but equally I do agree that
#
a lot of atheistic thinking
#
particularly in the west
#
misses the importance of
#
religion and all the holes that it fills in us
#
including the sense of community and so on
#
I nevertheless, like Hitchens is one of my heroes
#
I would have gone on the same path
#
I would have gone on the same path
#
even seeing that all this is going to happen
#
because my thinking would have been that
#
my dharma to myself as I define it
#
is to speak the truth and to seek the truth
#
and therefore it is what it is
#
there has been a failure on the rest of us to
#
on the intellectual battlefield
#
which is why I wrote this book because
#
this book was not addressed to
#
indefensible in our society
#
which I shred into pieces in chapter 5
#
I mean you will vouch for it
#
you saw how vicious I am
#
I am really glad I agreed with you on all of those things
#
otherwise I would have been deeply uncomfortable
#
that he is attacking me
#
you can't accuse me of not being vicious
#
my humble attempt through this is that
#
and I believe yes the world is a community
#
atheists are also a community
#
it is a very absurd community
#
it is like a community of people who don't collect stamps
#
of dharma and through the
#
I think we have a better
#
you can fight the evils of your
#
society while you remain
#
the part of your society
#
where you can be an unabashed
#
are one like me an unabashed
#
opponent of discrimination
#
give you any bona fides everybody
#
knows your fight against
#
I wrote this book was I was like
#
the mistakes of your peers
#
we should not make the mistakes the new atheists
#
you know Indian from a Christian background
#
or a Muslim background like for all
#
means and purposes I think Bulleh Shah
#
I would say he is our guy
#
challenging the orthodox
#
I want to leave a mischievous thought with you before we get deeper
#
into your book which is that
#
there is this great book by Stephen Lansberg called
#
The Big Questions and one of the chapters
#
he claims that most believers are
#
actually atheists if you look at revealed
#
preferences that it is convenient
#
for them as part of the community they are part of
#
and all the practices they take up
#
and all the rituals that give structure to their life
#
to say that I am a Christian or a Muslim
#
or a Hindu or whatever but actually
#
they don't actually believe in a literal god up there
#
they are basically atheists
#
a lot of them are like that
#
the only answer I would give to that is
#
until you find a better solution
#
that is all I am saying
#
my short answer to that
#
I get it see there are sometimes
#
and I don't say this in a
#
I say this with all sincerity
#
thank you Captain Obvious
#
we were driving in a car
#
he said when you say you are not
#
a nationalist and a patriot yet you
#
your heart beats for India
#
aren't you a hypocrite?
#
and I am just being very
#
open and honest with you because I know
#
with you I can have these conversations
#
yes I am not a nationalist
#
I know these are fictions
#
I play the game because I love democracy
#
a democracy is having a constitution
#
having a constitution is
#
as of now having borders
#
and having the idea of the nation state
#
we find a better solution
#
I will stop being a patriot
#
sense I am playing the game
#
yes I am calling it a game
#
analogy I will apply to the religion
#
you give me a better solution
#
of not going to a temple
#
and having other things
#
where people like me are in the
#
majority in society and things
#
don't collapse socially
#
I will stop playing this game
#
till then I will do my Diwali
#
I will enjoy the Iskcon Aarti
#
the day you find a better solution
#
we should play the game because the game
#
makes sense because the game is
#
more evolutionarily stable
#
you don't believe in many things
#
but you do for your mother
#
I am very sad for my mother
#
I don't want to rush through any of this
#
I am imagining that most of our listeners
#
I think it is super important to kind of
#
talk about it in some depth
#
so I will sort of invite you to
#
I will see you next time
#
The first point of difference between
#
I think that's the correct word
#
First of all, Gnostic is not atheist
#
I mean people don't know so much
#
that when I say Gnostic
#
Gnostic means people who don't believe in God
#
should I start with the explanation of
#
I think that's a good idea
#
originally there were 9 darshanas
#
so there were 6 Astik darshanas
#
and 3 Gnostic darshanas
#
3 Gnostic darshanas are
#
Jain, Bodha, Charvak, Lokayatikas
#
whatever we want to call them
#
and then the Astik was obviously
#
Poorva Mimansa, Sankhya
#
so there are 6 on that side
#
the differentiation was not that
#
the 6 on the Astika side
#
Astika side disbelieved in the Ishwar
#
the Vedas were the supreme authority
#
and they were the highest
#
because our epistemology we have to remember
#
is based on Pramanavada
#
Kaladhi, Shabda Praman, Pratyaksha
#
to and on what we use the
#
Pramanas and what was the supreme
#
so the differentiation was that
#
the 6 Astikas believed Vedas
#
the 3 Gnosticas believed
#
the Vedas, they did not disrespect
#
the Vedas, the key difference is
#
they said they are not the supreme authority
#
for the Bodha it would be the Tripitaka
#
for the Jaina let's say Acharang Sutra
#
there is no text available, there is nothing available
#
but the Brahaspataya Sutra
#
so now from there is the first classification
#
now we come into the subdivision
#
where there are Ishwarwadis
#
and there are Nirishwarwadis
#
and I have quoted Sankhya Karika 56
#
and 57 that categorically
#
states that for creation to exist
#
you don't need a creator
#
Sankhya is the dualistic school
#
that believes in Prakriti and Purusha
#
both the differentiation between
#
matter and form and the
#
interplay between form and matter
#
and they basically create, now interestingly
#
they don't believe there is a need for an Ishwar
#
but Sankhya believes in reincarnation
#
guess who is similar to Sankhya
#
the universe always existed
#
so if it always existed and is always going to exist
#
where is the question of the Ishwar coming
#
now both derive the meaning
#
in a very different way
#
Jaina uses Syadavada and Anikantavada
#
to come to this conclusion
#
but both believe in the transmigration
#
now one is Astik, one is Nastik
#
go figure that shit out man
#
even when I had read this
#
first time I was like I scratched my head
#
I was like I had to get rid of
#
you know when I realized
#
is when I read my culture
#
I was like I am so monotheistic
#
so this is one difference
#
the early Mimamsakas were also
#
not interested in Ishwar
#
they are like the more you know
#
the ritualistic aspect of all of it
#
that they just gave instructions
#
of the ritual and there is no scope of Ishwar there
#
later Mimamsakas obviously changed
#
and they had Ishwar and all of that
#
similarly Buddhists also
#
really don't emphasize on an Ishwar
#
they don't deny it categorically
#
like the Jainas do but they clearly
#
the gods are at the lower level in
#
the Buddhist pantheon and again it is about
#
as we would call it in Pali Canon
#
more about the four noble
#
truths and the eightfold path that the
#
Buddha talks about and there also
#
and then obviously I mean
#
my darshan, the Charvakas
#
they are like you all are fools
#
you fool everyone, right?
#
it is the Charvakas and this is their version
#
of what the Charvakas were
#
we don't know what the Charvakas were
#
because we have first hand Jaina books, Buddha books
#
Sankhya Karika is first hand
#
because we don't have any first hand, the only book
#
Paplava Simha by Jairasi Bhatt
#
bad luck that too is written
#
in a style of Sanskrit which is called
#
Arthaat taking a mickey out of everyone
#
without stating your own point of view
#
so basically Jairasi Bhatt
#
in the entire text says
#
you fool, you fool, you fool, you fool, you fool
#
doing but what do you want?
#
so what should I do? So anything
#
that we talk about Charvakas even
#
when today Charvakas are maligned
#
I am like how do you know?
#
Brihaspattari Sutra doesn't exist
#
at best this is a secondary source so if you are intellectually
#
honest you will be like Charvaka
#
based on secondary sources
#
our baseline differentiation
#
so now we know that Ishwarwada
#
and Nirishwarwada is not based on
#
we are a Karma obsessed society
#
the commonality in all the
#
Darshans is actually Karma with
#
Charvaka being the only exception
#
about Karma, Transmigration
#
of Punarjanma which we call
#
if you want to use the absolute accurate
#
which is why I said their antagonism
#
in Indian society is because
#
what will people say? Nastikas don't dominate
#
there were Jaina kingdoms
#
these were Nastika kingdoms were they harming
#
when the Nastikas used to live
#
were the Astikas harming the Nastikas? No
#
there were kings giving grants to Jaina
#
Jaina kings giving grants to Shiva temples
#
and now somebody will create the Shrauman
#
but I read somewhere one temple was done and one temple
#
there is a huge difference
#
why are there so many temples
#
because we didn't kill each other
#
because the understanding was very clear
#
they were not nasty to each other intellectually
#
the way the Advaitins go after
#
oh do you know what they said about the Charvakas
#
I was like Charvak ke baare mein toh 10 pages
#
mere bhai, main terko Advait ka wishist
#
Advait ke baare mein 100 page padha dunga
#
tu sochke yeh game kheliye ho mere saath
#
kyunki maine ek hi cheez kiye hai
#
mere life mein religion padha hai maine
#
maine economics nahi padhi, maa
#
pura time tu religion religion khel raha tha
#
maine religion pad raha tha
#
marun agar mere saath yeh game kheliye na, main chapter
#
verse quote karunga terko
#
you know there will be a verse
#
that later Charvak ke toh itne hi verse nikalenge
#
tere khud ke aapas ke verse nikalenge
#
arey yaar aaj wo kya hai
#
Tamil Nadu mei the Vadagalai and Tengalai
#
they are fighting over how to worship the elephant
#
even now the fight is over like 200 plus years
#
ek haati ki puja kaisi karne
#
mukalat nahi karte hain
#
Swamid Anand Saraswati jaja door nahi jana
#
bhai padlo Swamid Anand Saraswati ne
#
Jain Darshan ke baare mei kya likha hua hai
#
kya Jain unka tiraskar karenge
#
Jain philosophy mei likha hai
#
Shri Krishna narak me jata hai
#
don't trust a word I say
#
kyunki unhone aise karam kiye na
#
toh Jain philosophy ke isaap se yeh hai toh
#
aapke karmic calculation mei
#
they still respect Shri Krishna
#
what a weird society we have
#
this society to draw a moral
#
code of this society which is no wonder
#
the west thinks we are moral relativists
#
we are not moral relativists we are saying
#
what Shri Krishna did was XYZ
#
in our pantheon wrong but we still admire
#
him because this is our way
#
people contain multitudes
#
great level of intellectual
#
sophistication to be an objectivist
#
which clearly the ones on the other
#
side of the aisle cannot because
#
they are so Abrahamized
#
which is why I say I don't believe
#
in the decolonization of the mind
#
I believe in the de-Abrahamization
#
of the mind because I myself
#
have so many Abrahamic priors
#
even after all this reading
#
double click on this explain to me what you mean by Abrahamized
#
now somebody might say but dualism
#
exists in Hinduism also the dualistic
#
pantheon of Hinduism and the dualism
#
different like the distinction
#
and the creator of monotheism
#
Brahman of non-monotheistic
#
faith is very different that is point number one
#
Abrahamism because of the
#
exclusivity there is only one
#
God like I'll give you an example
#
of the Rig Veda the Rig Veda ends
#
verses one after the other that are
#
gods that is the sub heading
#
to be to be to be to be
#
contrast that to monotheism
#
yeah there are those are all
#
intellectual second order effects will be
#
what will be the third order effect of exclusivism
#
in a world where we have to
#
best what we can do we can tolerate each other
#
by the word tolerance if
#
we are decent human beings
#
tolerance is the most appalling
#
concept I have seen in my life
#
like I praise Rajeev Malhotra in this book
#
and I criticize him later on
#
about one concept his classification of
#
Astik Nastik but boy that book
#
changed my mind in 2009-10
#
because when I read that man I said
#
believe in mutual respect
#
we demand mutual respect at
#
when my mother told me putar yeh
#
bukh le aur mandir mein jaa it was
#
mutual respect and imagine how
#
that ek nastik jo bol raha hai bhagawan nahi hai
#
wo jaake bhagawan ke aage
#
wo book rakhayega kyunki bhagawan itna strong hai
#
usko uski nastikta se kuch nahi hoga
#
aur yeh itna strong hai iski nastikta ko us
#
bhagawan se kuch nahi hoga yeh hai
#
is dharti ki haan is dharti me bahut flaws hai
#
mar yeh to bahut sundar hai
#
god delusion will not be sung
#
but humara pradhan vantri
#
parliament me batke yawa jeeve
#
sukham jeeved ghranam krithva ghritam peeved
#
bhasmi bhutas se deya se
#
punar gamanam kutaha karta hai
#
narendra modi ne kiya tha yeh
#
parliament me narendra modi ke nastik hai
#
adwani ji ne and these are the
#
so called conservatives of india
#
when I see D.A. Abrahma is my mind
#
remove the veneer of tolerance
#
and we have to wear the coat of mutual
#
respect when we wear the coat
#
of mutual respect I start seeing
#
while I don't think he is a deity
#
infact I say it doesn't even matter
#
the case for Aram Mandir
#
has nothing to do with whether
#
Ram is real or not because that again
#
is putting an Abrahamic requirement
#
because if Jesus is not real
#
unfortunately the edifice of Christianity
#
if prophet Mohammed is not real
#
then the edifice of Islam
#
is not real lets assume
#
Buddha is not real lets assume
#
it does nothing to an average
#
Hindu Jain Buddhist they will still use them
#
they will still celebrate them
#
they will do the same things
#
again and again that's the
#
D.A. Abrahmaization I talk about it's a
#
fundamental difference in the world views
#
these are two completely
#
poles apart world views
#
any commonality in whatsoever
#
way at an epistemic level
#
and it doesn't mean that we need to fight
#
each other it means that we need to
#
understand each other and we need to
#
find a freaking solution to this problem
#
because the world is dominated
#
by Abrahamic privilege boss
#
essential religious practice
#
they don't even believe in writing
#
they just keep on singing
#
so won't we recognize them in quotes
#
this is the problem here
#
the moment the court of India
#
says essential religious practice
#
it is Abrahamic privilege
#
it is Abrahamic privilege
#
Teja is me mark is here
#
that's exactly what they are doing
#
this is Teja but Teja is me
#
we should not be ashamed
#
of our way it doesn't mean
#
anything goes no no no no
#
we still can have a universal
#
that I propose in the book I am not saying
#
it is full proof but at least I
#
propose something while we retain
#
de-Abrahamization is very important
#
no I am not a proponent
#
decolonization means colonizer is gone
#
75 years have passed and country is still a hell hole
#
stop blaming the colonizer
#
for everything but de-Abrahamization
#
very important to understand
#
our own society at our own
#
we don't even believers
#
even Aastikas don't understand
#
their own society at their own terms
#
we should be afraid of God
#
I don't want to be afraid of God
#
I don't have a sect that teaches me to be afraid of God
#
their sect teaches them
#
we have taken their teachings
#
why should I be afraid of God who is not real
#
we should be afraid of sugar
#
he himself says that God did this
#
and they say to be afraid of God
#
or say I haven't read anything
#
and I just listen and talk
#
I don't mean it in a pejorative way
#
I mean it in an epistemological intellectual way
#
and I want Indian disbelievers
#
when they de-Abrahamize
#
I am very sure they will see it the way I see it
#
here is the problem, here is the problem, here is the problem
#
they will solve all these problems
#
but we are part of them
#
we are part of this team
#
first of all it is our right
#
I am fighting for the right of every single skeptic
#
to be part of that community
#
when my ancestors used to believe
#
then who are these new fools
#
who say we are not part of this community
#
now somebody might come back and say why do you need a community
#
I am like best of luck you don't stay
#
I will fight for every silent skeptic
#
who wants to be part of this community like me
#
because it is a much better community
#
I want to stay in this community
#
I am fighting for my right
#
I don't want to fight for anyone
#
I am part of this community, I am part of this dharmic pantheon
#
nobody can take it away from me
#
that's all I am fighting for
#
I don't know which of the four horsemen
#
said this but one of them made a great point
#
where they said that if you are a believer
#
in one god you are an atheist for all
#
I thought you would know
#
and I loved the distinction between tolerance
#
and mutual respect also
#
you know just to make it explicit
#
for listeners, tolerance means
#
that if you are tolerating someone
#
it means you have already decided you are superior to them
#
you are just tolerating them
#
it is such a patronizing act and a patronizing word
#
in a sense I think of Hinduism as an open source religion
#
and I think if you are tied
#
to a particular platform
#
you can never understand
#
the beauties that can come out of something
#
that is open source, everybody is contributing
#
they are taking what they want
#
Unix, I mean it emerges from the
#
let's go back to the Charvakas
#
and let's go back to atheism
#
I am going to quote what you wrote about the Charvakas here
#
The Charvakas or Lokayatas advocate
#
for a materialistic understanding of the universe
#
rejecting the existence of any
#
supernatural or spiritual entities
#
it posits that the material world is
#
the only reality and that consciousness
#
arises from physical elements
#
Charvaka denies the concept of a creator god
#
and the notion of deities, souls
#
and any supernatural or metaphysical entities
#
it argues that such beliefs are mere
#
fabrications and lack empirical
#
evidence, it criticizes religious
#
rituals, sacrificial practices and reliance
#
on scriptural authority
#
all of this out because all of it coincides
#
exactly to what I believe in
#
and it also coincides to exactly
#
to western atheism as I understand it
#
now what you have done in this chapter
#
also really beautifully
#
is spoken about a. the commonalities
#
my pronunciations of normal words are also
#
terrible as listeners know so you'll have to forgive me
#
and modern atheism you've spoken about the
#
commonalities and you've also spoken
#
about the differences which are incredibly
#
nuanced so I want you to
#
take me through all of this first what is a common
#
ground and then what are the sort of
#
differences between them
#
I would also inform there why
#
how the Charvakas arrived is if you
#
remember in the old Indian religious pantheon
#
darshanik pantheon I would not use
#
the word religion also I'll say darshanik pantheon
#
we have those five elements right
#
the Charvakas even rejected the five elements
#
because one of the elements is akash
#
and they say akash cannot be appreciated
#
through pratyaksha pramana so they reject
#
akash also so they believe in four elements
#
pratyaksha is direct perception
#
that kind of a thing so
#
also accept inference although
#
qualified now in that also there
#
is debate some say they reject inference some say
#
they accept inference through qualified means
#
but they don't go more than one point five
#
praman out of the six shabda
#
they absolutely reject and I am a full
#
votary of that I reject shabda praman also
#
explain that so shabda praman is verbal
#
testimony bhaiya why should I agree with
#
all the advaitans will be like kushal you're cancelled
#
advaita is like full on shabda praman
#
matters if any advaitan is listening
#
to this by this time by this hour
#
of the podcast they are no longer advaitan
#
it's like the in that so
#
the one thing charvakas said that sharir is
#
only brahman there is no
#
there there brahman like
#
the neti neti brahman not this not this
#
sharir is the brahman and moksha
#
is when the sharir dies
#
you attain moksha very interesting
#
they say you attain moksha
#
no debate there but what do they mean
#
by moksha means cessation
#
of existence so not enlightenment
#
or whatever else they just say moksha
#
so moksha is when you pass away it's
#
game over so so I just wanted to add that
#
nuance so that people understand it's great yeah thank you
#
charvakas believe now as far as the commonalities
#
between the two is yes the charvakas
#
verification rationality which which I
#
explain in a detailed way
#
I understand but the differences
#
and I think we should spend time with the
#
differences and not the similarities let's do that
#
stems from the west right
#
the one biggest difference
#
is the hostility quotient which I explain
#
in the book and I explain
#
the hostility stems from blasphemy apostasy
#
the hostility is there in the source code
#
I don't blame them and poor atheists
#
I mean imagine Mansur Halaj
#
what did Mansur Halaj the Sufi do
#
per monotheism right because he's saying
#
I am the creation and the creator
#
they chopped his head off
#
his head off for what for just
#
it is so deeply encoded in
#
the source code of monotheism
#
that when you reject it your
#
hostility quotient is like
#
now contrast that that is a big
#
difference now contrast that with us
#
so that is one big difference
#
and the entry aspect in
#
that I don't believe in the monotheistic
#
other than that because
#
now the Jews have improved
#
because Jews now secular Jews
#
do Shabbat dinner so good
#
thumbs up you know I call it the
#
dharmification of the Judaism
#
dharmification of Jewry and I support it
#
and I don't want them to become Hindu
#
I want them to remain Jews but I think
#
they are the first ones out of the monotheistic
#
pantheon who have started adopting that
#
mention this in the book but
#
someone I admire a lot Arvind
#
Neelakantan he explained this
#
once in his book and also in a
#
conversation offline to me he said
#
might be monotheistic but then
#
Zoroastrianism neither Judaism
#
Christianity are monopolistic
#
the biggest difference is
#
traits of Islam and Christianity
#
because of the monopolistic
#
nature there is no scope
#
for the one who has been thrown out and out
#
to come back in until and unless they don't
#
accept the entire thing lock stock and barrel
#
difference comes because let's say
#
you are an irishwarwadi
#
you can still believe in trans migration
#
aren't isn't our society
#
accepting isn't that difference
#
that's a giant difference or
#
and still go to a mandir
#
do you think a mandir pujari is going to care
#
non-charvak my house is literally
#
it's so funny when I go
#
pandit also says ah charvaka
#
he actually loves me the pandit
#
why do you come then I was like I like it
#
he's like why do you like it I was like
#
one of my friends has a theory that
#
the tradition of going to temples
#
because it serves the purpose of
#
the mingling of the opposite sexes
#
this was a mischievous theory he had I told him
#
let's do an episode on it he said no I'll get lynched
#
today the mandir is very different
#
at that time when the mandir
#
came up it served a very
#
different purpose it was a
#
try and understand it was not a house of
#
god or ishwar just that
#
in fact the closest we can find to
#
that now is north american temples
#
because there is such a big
#
banquet hall everything is inside
#
because the population there is so less
#
so if you want to get married then what will you do
#
you will go to the mandir people do everything there
#
and festivals do everything how about us
#
in a very sad way have been disconnected
#
hinduism in india is kind of disconnected
#
see we are ganesh utsav
#
ganesh mandir has been separated
#
there are eternal ganesh mandir
#
but then there is the ganesh utsav
#
now I am not saying that ganesh mandir does not celebrate ganesh utsav
#
but beyond the ganesh mandir
#
also we have ganesh utsav
#
we have kalima's mandir but then we have
#
navratri and all of that also
#
we have matarani's mandir but we have
#
navratri and everything else so the point is
#
time we have to appreciate the fact that
#
all these things were directly correlated
#
to the temple the temple
#
was much more than just a house
#
of worship a temple was an
#
integral part of that community
#
and everything was downstream from that
#
everything was downstream
#
the monopoly of the church
#
because of the nature of the faith
#
being decentralized everything was
#
it was all decentralized
#
or especially monopolistic monotheism
#
so that is a giant difference
#
when we understand the monopolistic
#
the atheists that come out of there
#
because they literally have no house
#
they are intellectually
#
isn't that a big difference or am i wrong
#
we are not intellectually homeless
#
our books say you are one of us
#
and in that home we have our own room
#
they have been thrown out of the house
#
they are roaming in the streets
#
maybe our room is small
#
i think you know the way i would
#
i'll push back slightly i get your broad point
#
i agree with your broad point
#
but my sense just from myself is that
#
my home is one you are in right now
#
my room is the one in which we are recording right now
#
and the way i think about it is that
#
in one sense it's a lament
#
like a term that i used from one of my guests
#
Sugata Srinivasaraju was rooted cosmopolitanism
#
was that i am cosmopolitan but i am not
#
rooted enough and i wish i was because sometimes
#
i feel that lack but at the same
#
time i'll take the trade off
#
with communities of choice
#
and i m not restricted to communities of circumstance
#
communities forced upon me by geography
#
or the location of whatever my
#
religion of birth might have been
#
it applies everywhere and i m not sure
#
most western atheists would feel
#
deracinated in a similar way
#
we form communities of other kinds
#
which give us peace which give us all of the
#
things that these communities might
#
of course not and it's not that important
#
it's a very minor part like you know i might prefer
#
blue to green you might prefer green to blue
#
you and i could still be part of a community
#
in fact i believe that you and i are now part of a community
#
and the atheism is an incidental
#
there are other things that bind us together
#
and you might form communities like that
#
there is a culture around Hindu religion
#
around Hindutva as you know
#
Savarkar defines it like most people think of Hindutva
#
like i used to think that Hindutva is
#
just political Hinduism it's a subset
#
Savarkar's definition is that Hinduism
#
is a cognate and the Hindutva
#
which i found fascinating and i'll dig
#
into that with you shortly
#
but yeah so i was just responding to that point
#
that i get your broader point
#
of someone who is a non-believer
#
and be still being able to
#
one's community and one's culture
#
cognitive dissonance i buy that
#
but you know by and large
#
i think like the way that
#
in that sense i do see myself different from you
#
i don't think i've been to a temple
#
the question is not whether you choose
#
whether you can the option is open to you
#
the ultimate level these
#
differences exist whether we like it
#
or not i think the difference that you're
#
pointing out is a difference of how
#
we have arrived at this thing like
#
by my understanding of your definition of
#
Charvaka which covered a lot and was
#
just beautifully expressed is
#
that that is who i am and that's in
#
terms of what it is is identical to
#
western atheism and what you are doing here
#
is you're speaking about the differences in
#
correct in that yeah because
#
my first introductory piece on Charvaka
#
because i want to clarify i'm not saying this negatively
#
i'm shocked at the number
#
of emails i got from philosophy
#
who said we do not know india had
#
a fully developed materialistic philosophy
#
and epicureans and all these things
#
and it was like a fully developed philosophy
#
do you guys do this my thinking
#
started when they asked
#
me then how do you guys figure this out
#
like how does this work and then
#
i gave the and i quoted
#
the book also i gave the example of how
#
we are different from them the best way to explain it
#
sixty percent say they are buddhist
#
sixty five percent say they are
#
shinto now go fucking figure that shit
#
multitudes yeah i love that yeah and
#
and but that's unique to us
#
which is why i say monopolistic monotheism
#
but non-monopolistic faiths
#
like smartha traditions
#
all gods these are gigantic
#
global religion competition commission
#
and break up the monopolies
#
marxist will agree to that
#
here's my next question on your book you've got a lovely
#
do we arrive at our morality
#
figure out what is the right thing to do
#
if that anchor of a religion
#
and the religious codes and scriptures aren't there
#
and it's a lovely chapter i'll just point
#
readers to your book because i do want them
#
to buy it so i won't ask you to summarize all
#
of it you know some of it
#
like hates jonathan hates
#
five foundations for morality and all that i was familiar
#
with some of it i wasn't it's great reading
#
moral code like i think most of us
#
get our moral codes in a sense from
#
osmosis from being where we are
#
from just you know picking up
#
what is accepted behavior in
#
our homes and then around
#
was there a time that you
#
started questioning some of that
#
and adding things to that and
#
sharpening some of those so tell me about
#
your personal morality because i've thought about mine
#
a fair bit and it's just
#
it's a subject i want to get
#
right and figure it out
#
in my case the one of the first
#
things when i started pondering over
#
when i lost my faith itself was why should i
#
then it led to me the next question is what is good
#
you refer to this beautiful
#
your book which you know plato introduced
#
and it's a great question is an action morally
#
good because god commands it or does
#
god command it because it's ethically sound
#
that's where my journey starts
#
even was a relativist for a while
#
relativism is the most convenient
#
position right all relativists
#
are nominal objectivists
#
because eventually they have an
#
it just changes when somebody questions it
#
until somebody questions them
#
they live by a waste line
#
started reading consequentialism
#
like or the kantian ethic
#
that i could not buy and then
#
you know the luckiest thing for
#
dabbled a lot with western philosophy
#
indian philosophy like mahabharat
#
is mahabharat utilitarian or consequentialist
#
there are stories where you'll see utilitarianism
#
being preached in the mahabharat
#
there are stories where
#
they preach consequentialism
#
teleological ethics everything they just
#
how do i make sense of this
#
looking at it from a western philosophical
#
that lens and then i was like
#
what are they trying to say
#
here is upholding dharma
#
do to uphold dharma then i
#
honestly did not even find satisfactory
#
answers just from the hindu pantheon
#
and then because i was born and raised in
#
dhatkopar surrounded by jains
#
did i find my final answer
#
which is why i always if you note in the book
#
i use the words bhagwan mahabhir
#
do not use just mahabhir people will
#
notice this i say shree krishna
#
do i think he is a lord
#
no do i think mahabhir is a bhagwan no
#
a random word mentioned
#
of some jain acquaintance
#
because we are in textiles it's dominated by
#
that i was like yeh kya
#
seven step usko bolok kehte hai sapt bhangi
#
it was not meant for morality
#
yeh maine apna tadka lagaya
#
it was meant for objective
#
because in philosophy i was a moral
#
and ethical moral and ethics nerd
#
thing i look at everything from a moral
#
and ethics lens like if somebody
#
analyzes my podcast they'll clearly
#
come to a conclusion that his questions always
#
lead to a moral and ethics
#
oh my god i found a gold mine
#
it does not deny the truth
#
and bhagwan mahavir says that
#
ha flexible hai magar truth
#
exist satya hai ek hai satya
#
this is what the world needs
#
aur mer ko toh duniya ko batana hai abhi baas
#
ki bhai bhagwan mahavir ke paas jaao
#
sabse profound cheez jain dharma
#
yaan siyaad ho vaad jo bulana hai bula ho usko
#
so my code comes from there
#
through my journey where it starts
#
then how do i become good
#
to what is the best way
#
once i answered each one of those
#
question and the second biggest
#
you not read the socratic
#
par chhunna chahiye us aadmi ka yaar
#
dono ka mahavir aur socrates
#
humare culture me usko socrates kahenge hum
#
dono ke par chhunne chahiye you should bow
#
down to the genius of these two
#
great gentlemen how unke kuch
#
vichaar honge jainism keta hai
#
earth is flat they have the theory of jambudvipa
#
theek hai bhai usko ignore kardo
#
aur yahan pe again wo differences
#
monotheism ka monopolistic
#
the beauty of many things of life
#
not look at it through your lens
#
like maine toh nahi kiya na
#
tumhe idea nahi tum kitne dharmik ho
#
so i am going all roadies on
#
you tu hai tuje pata nahi magar tu hai
#
how much dharma you have in you
#
is something maybe even you dont understand
#
or maybe you dont want to
#
and i am not saying this negatively
#
i am just saying this as someone who
#
now spent hours with you
#
its just that sometimes
#
people express it in different ways
#
stems from a mixture of
#
a little bit of the buddhist chatushkoti
#
system unka chatushkoti
#
and then a little bit of you know
#
because charvak ka toh koi moral code
#
tha hi nahi nahi you cant say
#
ghi khao udhar lo aur wapis bhi nahi karo
#
that's a ridiculous moral system
#
agar o ghi khao bohot acha hai
#
interest pay karo aur wapis principal pay karo
#
charvak ke usme likha hi nahi hai wo
#
how can i agree with that
#
main hoon charvak magar ye
#
ki wo jo bolega main manunga
#
agar main jain ke flat earth se disagree karke
#
unka anekant vad le sakta hu
#
toh charvak ka ghi khao leke
#
uska udhar lo aur majhe karo
#
kyon nahi reject kar sakta
#
like that pancharatna puja
#
western and eastern sabko lo
#
kyunki hum monopolistic
#
nahi hai iske liye humara atheism bhi
#
humara atheism open source hai
#
aur if somebody asked me
#
is because i read these scriptures
#
now you might be like those scriptures have
#
nasty things which i have quoted
#
like most people think hinduism
#
is casteist, boy do you read
#
buddhism you realize what caste is
#
like people will find it hard
#
to believe but i mean you cant argue the chapter
#
but the point is beyond that still
#
of the buddha and not go like wow
#
and the moment again it all
#
stems from de-abrahmaize
#
de-monopolize your mind
#
the world is your oyster
#
what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed
#
without evidence what a beautiful idea
#
the greatest razor ever
#
or dan dennett consciousness explained
#
am very unemotional but when dan
#
passed away recently i felt so sad
#
i am like my teacher died
#
i dont think dockins is my guru
#
but i did think dan dennett was my guru
#
he must consider me his disciple
#
but i consider him my guru
#
these are all my cultural traits
#
these are not those cultures traits
#
i can literally point to the chapter and verse
#
where i learned it in my culture
#
and these are not universal phenomenons
#
dig in and get ask you to get a little
#
specific but before that
#
sort of a quick sort of clarification for my
#
listeners about some of the terms like
#
moral relativism for example
#
is basically other religions will tell you this
#
is the path take this path in the
#
monopolistic way but moral relativism
#
essentially holds that morality
#
is subjective it depends on where you are
#
you know it might mean one thing in the uk
#
it might mean another thing in afghanistan
#
that is a barbaric way of looking at the
#
world it leads you straight away
#
to a justification of things like female
#
circumcision of you know
#
from my lens individual rights
#
autonomy consent they are all
#
important above everything else
#
and if you go with moral
#
relativism and you say that okay
#
a society that is treating its women
#
badly or children badly and its all
#
okay because hey that's a culture i just
#
think that's completely terrible i was struck
#
anekantwad if i'm pronouncing it correctly
#
anekantwad yeah anekantwad where
#
flexibility but at the same
#
time it's not completely relativistic
#
there is something universal there
#
which holds what is that
#
so the the way the mahavir
#
translation will be non-one-sidedness
#
look at the beauty of the word itself
#
it's an untranslatable word in a sense
#
it's so beautiful like what
#
does monotheism teach us one-sidedness
#
same like the way you want us to be
#
same like the way i want it's all
#
one-sided sameness right
#
that explains the flexibility but i'm looking
#
axiom or the assumption is we are all
#
searching for the truth
#
at the end of the day we are all searching for
#
the truth sometimes we are searching
#
for the truth and finding the making
#
finding meaning in our lives
#
or even in direct things like what is
#
the reality behind x object being
#
made or y object being made
#
the truth is very obvious and very
#
is made in a certain process
#
but in the realm of reality
#
that truth is very clouded
#
sometimes it is and it is not
#
so they explained it in a seven-fold way
#
but the ending caveat is
#
it doesn't mean that you stop
#
when somebody says you don't stop
#
seeking the truth you only tell
#
those things when there is one
#
which is why it deviates from relativism
#
is because both relativism and
#
subjectivism say there is no truth
#
there are macro narratives
#
truth can be blurry at times
#
you can try these seven steps
#
but hang on there is one so keep trying
#
keep trying keep trying
#
because what is the underlying assumption of
#
all eight darshanas barring charvaka
#
is something else and you have to be
#
if there was no truth there is no trans migration
#
trans migration and then
#
so all philosophies have a truth
#
I call them pseudo advaitins
#
do is they have used the veneer
#
of moral relativism because they have
#
no answer for the barbaric system
#
so they will come up with barbaric answers
#
like this is coloniality
#
endogamy in india and I cite
#
I forgot the name of the scientist
#
that endogamy in india was
#
an original sin of hinduism
#
certainly in my mind like it is unforgivable
#
and that is exactly what you are talking about
#
the whole jati varn system
#
and I don't say it is uniquely hindu
#
hierarchies are universal
#
that we should criticize
#
I am not saying like in my book I clearly showed
#
buddhists have it, the jainas have it
#
the hindus have it, the sikhs have it
#
Indian muslims and christians also have it
#
in this country and in this world
#
there are so many tribal human beings
#
I was reading a poll the other day
#
that 90-95% democrats only marry democrats
#
they don't even marry a republican
#
they don't even do inter-political marriage
#
is the political jati varn
#
and why hindus have adopted to relativism
#
is because they did not have a good
#
their own society has done
#
and because when you don't want to admit to your own paap
#
what is the best answer
#
this translation is not accurate
#
no true translation fallacy
#
like a no true scotsman
#
right, so I call it the no true translation
#
you know its funny I will play the game
#
I will read 4 nice verses
#
then I start reading all the bad things
#
like this is wrong translation
#
I am like this is the same person
#
so basically it becomes a bad translation
#
when the verse doesn't suit your
#
it becomes a good translation
#
when it suits your morality
#
basically when you want to feel good
#
that's when you become all good
#
oh the complexity of sanskrit
#
you don't understand the complexity
#
the word loses its meaning
#
I can read 4 translations
#
I can read 5 translations
#
when all of them point to the same direction
#
what do you want me to do
#
there are 2 groups in India
#
that are moral relativists
#
both are kumbh mele ke bichde huye
#
both use the same epistemology
#
see India has 2 negationisms
#
one is the record of islamism
#
its negationism that is done by
#
and one is the record of
#
which is the decolonialists
#
one will say oh they will say
#
nicholas dirks castes of mind
#
the british exacerbated caste
#
it doesn't mean it did not exist before that
#
as the genetic evidence shows
#
is not written at the same point of time
#
even the rigveda was not written at the same point of time
#
do you know the gap between the first
#
verse and the last verse is more than
#
2000 years its that big
#
it is a compendium later on
#
and even in the rigveda
#
there are the old books and the new books
#
there are the family books and then the old books
#
and you know all these people who talk about
#
only varna is just a classification system
#
even by your standards the rigveda
#
when is varna as a class and i agree
#
rigveda does not talk about birth
#
base varna it just talks about
#
the metaphysical purusha
#
it doesn't even say it is standing or lying down
#
it doesn't say anything
#
my claim is jati and varna are like
#
a guardian knot it cannot be
#
entangled which is why it should be annihilated
#
and this is how i explain it
#
even if varna is mentioned
#
in the purusha supta in 10.90
#
is mentioned in the first
#
it is super imposed on jati
#
so i accept it may have been
#
fluid at one point of time
#
remain fluid is because it
#
is meant to be like end up
#
is pointing to disaster
#
this i will explain like i said in my
#
third book which is going to be
#
technically explain this
#
this apology for jati varna
#
that is given by a section
#
of the non left in india is so
#
appalling and so shameful
#
everybody each one of them
#
has to be ashamed of themselves
#
what apology are you giving
#
and what is your attachment
#
oh our ishta devata and kula devata
#
are attached to the jati
#
before becoming someone's ishta devata
#
was someone's kula devata
#
it must have started at an evolutionary
#
and eventually the beauty of dharma was
#
so when jati varna will go
#
that your devata will go
#
never thought that even Punjabi
#
make ganesh chaturthi but they do
#
they make my cousins in Punjab
#
kabhi kabhi pehle dekhte the abhi dekhte
#
arguments that I hear I mean how can
#
you say it is not a problem in this
#
society only if you are a general
#
will you say all this kind of rubbish
#
I am sorry I have never
#
SCST OBC community ever saying
#
even I would not say OBC community
#
because even the OBC community is equally
#
involved in the operation
#
ke liye mereko ye poori sympathy hai
#
because do people realize that
#
jinko hum aaj SCST bolte hai ye
#
shudh rahayar ki me bhi ni
#
aapne inki itni buri halat
#
aapko sharam nahi aati iske liye apology
#
yaar koi chullu bhar paani me dup maro
#
aur mujhe koi is aur is
#
waqt avye ke liye agar mujhe pura samaj
#
cancel karde gana ma last tak
#
bolta runga till the last
#
breath in my body I will scream against
#
this third rated system I don't
#
care who likes me or not
#
I will fight against it
#
aur India mein ye dono negationism chalte hai
#
Aurangzeb ne toh kuch kiya hi nahi ji
#
Aurangzeb toh bada acha tha
#
wo toh aise kumbaya kar raha tha
#
maare sath bhangde dal raha tha
#
phir unhone gauri dhun liye amerika me
#
bhai gauri ne bola hai toh sachi hoga
#
humne bhi dhun liye ek excuse
#
kyunki general category
#
hindus ko ye cognitive dissonance honi lagi
#
achcha maine paap kiya hai
#
wo jaisar Adi maa ne ek baar line bolata
#
I am very pure and pious
#
hai no usne ek line boli thi
#
they are very pure and pious
#
cognitive dissonance the Indian left
#
and the non left are moral relativists
#
so we all come back to the philosophy
#
that's what moral relativism does
#
the very thought that I am full of shit
#
that's why my society has problems
#
because I am an objectivist just like you
#
we find a problem we say ye bohot galat hua hai
#
a main thun na bol raha ho ki
#
all general category hindus
#
should suffer for what people did in the past
#
or all muslims today should suffer for
#
what Aurangzeb did in the past
#
only for these two things
#
the Indian left and non left only agree on one thing
#
they agree that British were bad
#
they only agree on one thing
#
that too for different reasons
#
but they agree on one thing
#
wo saale unhone bad kharab kaam kiya
#
the only place where they agree
#
but main unko counter question puston
#
abhi koi gora aata aida
#
pehli baat humare liye jaise unko saare brown ek jaise lagta hai
#
pehli baat humare liye jaise unko saare brown ek jaise lagta hai
#
kya re tu ne kya kiya mere logon ko
#
because we forgive them
#
because our brain is sensible
#
that we don't punish the person today for the sins of the past
#
so why would an average hindu do it to the muslim
#
dalit do it to a general category hindu
#
I mean that's another thing the
#
left and the non left have in common is
#
not correcting sins of the past and the obsession with that
#
about the Rigveda and how it was so spread
#
out is very interesting
#
so I am just thinking aloud and this is a little bit of a
#
gimmick I am going to do but please indulge me
#
the first verse of the Rigveda
#
was written then the last
#
by your great great great great
#
great great great great great great great
#
great great great great great great great
#
great great great great great great great great
#
great great great great great great great great
#
great great great great great great great great
#
and 40 more I just read 40
#
great grandson you know that is
#
the amount of generations that pass
#
in between all of this and we look back on ancient
#
history and we just conflate it and we compress
#
the time or you know so that's
#
like a sort of an incredible point
#
and you've spoken about the dissonance
#
of these different tribes on these matters
#
that lead to the moral relativism and I am going to
#
ask you to invite them to
#
another kind of dissonance because one of the points that
#
you made beautifully in the book
#
very convincing to me is that
#
whereas in some circles
#
as being casteist what you have
#
pointed out is that practically the core
#
is anti caste so I want you to take
#
me through the history of that and elaborate
#
on that for me. So Hindutva or
#
as loosely it is called political
#
three things in my view largely
#
what is the origin of Hindutva
#
because there are different theories some say
#
some say it starts with
#
Dainan Saraswati Swami Vivekananda
#
and that kind of a goal
#
with let's say Savarkar
#
and all those or even Chandranath
#
Hindol in his latest book
#
shows that actually Bankim
#
it's a beautiful book by the way highly recommend
#
everyone to read Hindol's. The thing with
#
him is that with Chatterjee
#
is that he didn't go to school very often
#
which is why he was called Banking Chandra Chatterjee
#
if people want to understand that
#
Hindol actually narrates it beautifully in his book
#
Soul and Sword the story
#
of political Hinduism is beautifully
#
explained by Hindol and
#
the tragedy of this entire
#
system is that people have
#
when Hindutva is a reaction
#
to what a reality around them
#
I take you back to a non monotheistic
#
mind looking at monotheism
#
for the first time where they're like
#
I need to convert you I need to save you I need to convert
#
you I need to save you and they're like
#
oh sometimes these people are aggressive
#
also they use the sword also
#
we're shrinking our numbers
#
are reducing yeah we suck
#
are shrinking what do we do
#
orthodox ultra orthodox were like no no
#
I am to ultra orthodox I am to ultra
#
orthodox but they were common sense
#
we have so many problems
#
and these people are coming
#
so it becomes initially a response to
#
monopolistic monotheism
#
monotheism and colonialism winning
#
to these three elements
#
and when we read the primary
#
of Hindutva is the seven shackles of Hindu
#
Damodar Savarkar samudra bandi
#
people were not allowed to go
#
beyond a certain sea why
#
oh it is a taboo first of all what
#
a stupid fucking rule I mean
#
goodness gracious me I apologize
#
stupid rule no no you said
#
what a stupid fucking rules it's okay man
#
people are not allowed to read
#
they go on and there are seven
#
sarchalaks a very powerful
#
man in the sangh his exact
#
vyavastha is avyavastha
#
yeh kaunsa procast stand hai
#
the only people who keep giving apology
#
for this third rated system of jati
#
to say are gandhi and his
#
hamesha se oppose karta hai
#
you want to criticize hindutva I mean
#
they are socialists I accept
#
ekatma manavad economic
#
philosophy of pandit dindya lopadhyaya
#
there is no third way it is basically socialism
#
basically log aise naag pakkarte hain usne aise naag
#
pakkada hain it is socialism I don't
#
issue of caste and social reform
#
Arya samaj ki sabse badi contribution kya hai
#
Arya samaj was not part of hindutva
#
in fact you read saavarkar's autobiographies
#
you will clearly know how much saavarkar was influenced
#
by Arya samaji thinking
#
and when you read bhagat singh you will realize how much bhagat singh
#
was influenced by saavarkar
#
in 1857 I mean these are
#
not things I'm pulling out of my ass
#
these are known things in Indian history
#
it's just that I don't know why
#
a section of India was not told these things
#
Gandhi was a clear apologist of jati varna man
#
I mean I'm not anti gandhi
#
I'm one of the few people who is actually very
#
respectful to gandhi in public discourse
#
but gandhi had some appalling ideas
#
gandhi was an anti waxer
#
have you read hinswara ji was he thought doctors were evil
#
he thought railways were evil
#
and the apology for jati varna
#
so I want to double down
#
on this and say run on this topic
#
a different topic I'm team
#
anti saavarkar and I'll tell you
#
bears it out I mean you got to look at revealed
#
preferences I'm not going to look at what
#
activists say on twitter I'm going to look at what happens
#
on the ground in both 2014
#
and 2019 more dalits voted
#
for the BJP than any other party in
#
India the dalit scholar badri narayan
#
in fact refers to the BJP
#
as the default dalit party of India
#
quote unquote in so many
#
is the reality on the ground today I had
#
a great episode with the economist yugang goel
#
who's written a book on voting in
#
India as well and all the data
#
that he's looked at the granular data kind of
#
backs it up that they are the
#
dalit and the OBC party of India right now
#
so there I completely agree with you
#
hindutva which is it's being
#
anti Islam while I think gandhi's
#
hinswaraj is just a laughable book
#
I think saavarkar's hindutva is a
#
wild book and it is a wild book because
#
the definitions are toxic
#
in the way that they are
#
exclusionary his whole point is
#
that if your place of worship is somewhere
#
else and other than India then
#
you are not part of this civilization
#
it is clearly anti-muslim you look
#
at the politics of that era
#
like akshay mukul has a great book on
#
the geeta press and he talks about it
#
and the 1920s are like a mirror
#
of the 2020s where the key
#
issues of the day are things like love jihad
#
things like cow slaughter and
#
so on right it is like a mirror
#
of that where they have just
#
all through and this is
#
social force you know anti-muslim violence
#
here has gone up anti-muslim rhetoric
#
against low level BJP leaders
#
have gone up now I understand that there is
#
a line of thinking that
#
the RSS is more moderate in some
#
ways or feels differently that the top brass
#
doesn't necessarily you know but even
#
Narendra Modi's campaign speeches
#
there is all this dog whistling against Muslims
#
and so on and this is something that worries
#
me deeply this is something I want
#
everything else about Hinduism open
#
source religion that's great you
#
know the fact that you know
#
so many strands can mingle
#
within it and what you know JP
#
Narayan said that there is an essential
#
liberalism in our lived reality
#
but this drives me nuts this
#
is like this is something that
#
I cannot sort of come to terms with
#
so I will push back one
#
on one bit no anti-muslim violence
#
is not increasing the data does not bear it out
#
of anti-muslim violence is the only
#
way we can track is communal
#
violence or communal rights related violence
#
this chart with you I will find it
#
and I'll send it across it's a national database I have
#
made it up it's clearly going down
#
in fact the only reality that one can
#
see in that is every time congress comes back in power
#
communal violence goes up sure but the rest of
#
it I mean Savarkar's book says what it says
#
yeah yeah no no no so I
#
am coming to that as far
#
as the anti-muslim sentiment
#
in Savarkar's rhetoric is concerned
#
nobody can give an apology
#
for that nobody can I never do
#
it doesn't mean I need to
#
discard Savarkar in its entirety
#
like I don't need to discard Gandhi in its entirety
#
Gandhi's greatest achievement was the Poonapak
#
if Gandhi would not have had a Poonapak
#
this society would not exist this would be a broken
#
society that Gandhi defeated
#
Ambedkar in one thing in his life
#
of his is washing away his 100 fathers
#
I am saying it simple I am not
#
and Gorse was the worst thing and he put Hindu
#
society back by 500 years
#
like I just want to say all of those things
#
as far as the anti-muslim
#
rhetoric is concerned again there is
#
no apology for it it's wrong
#
if there was a Rangila Rasool
#
why was a Rangila Rasool
#
it was written as a response to
#
and it breaks my heart to even take the
#
name of that book what was it called
#
Sita Ka Chinala or something
#
yeah it was called something of that sort
#
I mean wo kare to chamathkar, hum kare to
#
balathkar kind of a problem I am not
#
doing whataboutism I am saying that both
#
both are equally wrong I was just about to
#
say whataboutery is an admission of defeat
#
but then you pointed out you are not doing that
#
but both are equally wrong so yeah
#
which is what I am saying so if we want to get rid
#
of both of them I have no problem in it
#
I will give another modern day example he is even
#
what is his name Raja Singh or something
#
yeah I forget the name he is in Hyderabad
#
now my apology has come
#
you will be in the constituency of OVC
#
neither Akbaruddin should be OVC nor should he be Raja Singh
#
but you don't know the reality
#
and the problem is if you want a 20
#
trillion economy you need to improve
#
the standard of this country
#
the only problem is you keep thinking
#
that PCB is in disarray
#
you should see the problems of BCCI
#
you should see the problems of BCCI
#
the tragedy of India is
#
we are winning the test series
#
we are getting happy thinking this
#
I am 100% in agreement with you
#
that does not malign Hindutva as a concept
#
who says we need to adopt it
#
but this again like the
#
it gets into the no true Hindutva thing
#
where I can point out any element of it
#
that I don't like and you could say
#
but this is not what I am standing for
#
I condemn this but the concept is great
#
no that's a good question
#
sorry I will interject and ask you a question
#
that Akar Patel once raised rhetorically
#
in his first episode with me
#
where he said that I know everything that Hindutva
#
what does it stand for?
#
a. the geographical unity of India
#
elimination of casteism
#
elimination of discrimination
#
what they want to say no matter how much
#
Savarkar's rhetoric was
#
but when the Hindu Mahasabha came up with his
#
it's available and quoted
#
multiple times including Vikram's book
#
of course the whole thing
#
there is no anti-Muslim sentiment in that
#
their constitution that they proposed actually was more
#
secular than what nonsense we have in India today
#
it would have been far better
#
than what we have so it stands for that
#
it stands for many more things
#
it depends on which area we are talking about
#
it stands for a very socialist economy
#
which I have a very problem
#
Hindutva is very socialist in its economic philosophy
#
is something that is needed in the society
#
you will not survive as a society
#
if you don't have Hindutva I am sorry to say this
#
in our immediate neighborhood
#
we are the only stable democracy
#
it is only because this
#
it is only because this society
#
let's not beat around the bush about that
#
of a religion will be like the
#
fundamentals of that religion
#
I mean that's an assertion that one can argue with by saying
#
that you are really only speaking about the
#
Hindi belt you look at all of South India
#
that's not Hindutva that's a different
#
I don't want to get into semantics
#
but this kind of political
#
Hinduism that we are speaking of
#
which is so full of anger and so
#
against all of these things you don't see that in the South
#
the elements of it it is not the
#
worst is a necessary not sufficient
#
can't just be angry and give a solution
#
so Ajay and I did an episode
#
of everything is everything on populism
#
where we didn't mention India even once but
#
the whole populist playbook
#
you know matches exactly
#
and a lot of those is what
#
we see in our politics today
#
for example there is anti-elitism
#
sense that is good I am also against certain
#
parts of the elite but anti-elitism also
#
translates into anti-expertise
#
into a reflexive sort of
#
sort of attitudes and there are
#
simplistic narratives there is
#
a taking over there is a weakening of institutions
#
and the taking over of institutions there is
#
mass clientelism it is the entire
#
playbook in great detail
#
and when you see that you see that this is
#
really just populism playing itself out
#
I think it's not anti-elitism
#
I think it's one of the ten aspects that Jan
#
Werner Muller wrote about in his book
#
I am saying Hindutva is anti-orthodoxy
#
ok I will make a distinction between Hindutva
#
and the current politics the current politics is
#
against the Lutyens elite and the Khan market liberals
#
you know this whole term I am just using
#
I find it laughable this whole term godi media
#
I mean we are two years old
#
kids no no that was forever
#
that is a different point
#
so I mean elites always exist
#
the people around the king change
#
the people around the king change
#
basically the people who are changing
#
they are getting destroyed
#
said nasty things about the
#
and my phone has no password
#
anybody can come and check all my
#
and you can't say I am an irrelevant voice in India
#
I refuse to believe that I don't have a voice in India
#
relevant voice in India
#
much more than that I would argue
#
people being against something and people being
#
and with the BJP on a lot of the things
#
on the Fabian socialism of the past
#
on what the elites did to our country
#
I often say that the difference between the BJP
#
and the congress is this
#
that the BJP believes that history ended at 2014
#
we will only rant about what happened before that
#
and the congress believes that
#
history began at 2014 and we will not
#
accept any of the faults of the past before that
#
I am against all of that
#
I am with you on this one
#
actually very similar in our way of looking at it
#
so both of us are exactly
#
aligned on what we are against
#
my question is what are we then for
#
because when I look at this government for example
#
and I want to ask you this because you said you voted for the BJP
#
and for reasons I will respect
#
the thing is that on economics
#
you are completely down the wrong path
#
Modi talks against Nehru and Indira
#
but his top down thinking is identical
#
his intense statism and distrust
#
of markets is similar to
#
that kind of thinking is disastrous
#
we have Nehru's import substitution
#
coming back in a manner of speaking
#
I could just go on and on
#
it is a laundry list of problems with the economy
#
even if you say that demonetization
#
it was a disastrous blunder
#
but Indira did similar blunders of a different kind
#
economic policy is perhaps equally bad
#
now that we have put away what we are against
#
first of all I will not give answers on economics
#
it is not because I am looking to
#
I do not support capitalism
#
I just support capitalism because I feel
#
markets just work more efficiently
#
and that's my only opinion on it
#
but BJP is against markets
#
and for some businesses
#
but against free markets
#
it is evident from their actions
#
I don't see the evidence for that
#
to be like they are only for a few companies
#
because then we will have to get into the granular details
#
of who has benefited under whom
#
I believe every Indian political outfit
#
so that is something not unique
#
that is not something unique to cancel BJP out
#
the core of our discussion
#
the anti-Muslim is there
#
but then the anti-Hindu-ness of the congress is also there
#
nobody can say congress is not anti-Hindu
#
the active policies of this government
#
against the Hindu community
#
so at least at a policy level
#
the BJP is not anti-Muslim
#
can you speak of anything in the post-91 era
#
the increase of temple control
#
the actual increasing draconian legislations
#
under the garm of hurting religious sentiments
#
these are all anti-Hindu policies
#
because if you are playing the blasphemy
#
there is only one loser
#
I know I am notoriously famous for
#
weaponizing 295A in India
#
because I was the one who basically went after
#
Dadlani to make a mockery of 295A
#
I don't know if you know this story
#
no I don't know this, I mean I hate 295A
#
I hate it with a passion, I am with you brother
#
in my life where I was like
#
this 295A is such a waste
#
what can we do about it
#
so you remember the famous instant of
#
Vishal Dadlani posting that
#
Kachhe Din or something
#
against Tarun Sagar Ji Maharaj
#
so I was like what can we do now
#
I went to Chembur police station
#
filed a complaint under 295A
#
and it created a tsunami effect
#
across the country where multiple FIRs
#
were filed against him and
#
Tehseen Poonawala, sorry Tehseen
#
not sorry to Vishal Dadlani
#
but only sorry to Tehseen
#
why not sorry to Vishal Dadlani
#
he and I don't see eye to eye
#
which is why, I just don't see
#
do you think that particular act
#
no, I mean nothing justifies 295A
#
I don't know the name of media house
#
so media house calls me
#
news came everywhere, articles
#
kushal Mehra, search kushal Mehra
#
are you a believer in God
#
then why did you file this case
#
can you show me the law
#
rubbish law which is meant
#
and I wanted to showcase how ridiculous
#
this law is and maybe in this country
#
the country has developed a culture that
#
until and unless a law is misused by
#
the Hindus that law does not go
#
so I am starting the tradition of
#
using and misusing 295A
#
in every single case where it is legally
#
and I am going to use it so much and so much
#
that eventually the Indian left
#
that basically is in the lap of the Islamists
#
and the church will be like
#
let's get rid of this law
#
that's the only way things are done in India
#
and eventually the left is like
#
so I basically weaponized 295A
#
because that's the if the eventual goal
#
of everybody weaponizing 295A
#
there is a clear demarcation
#
we don't separate from Sartan
#
this is his statistical
#
his statistical evidence
#
I can statistically show
#
that there is a difference
#
between Sartan in one place
#
Amit Verma and Kushal Mehera
#
try it on the other side
#
and you will get ding dong
#
and why should we not talk about
#
when there is a community
#
minority is Jain in this country
#
how many times has this happened
#
people go out and show meat
#
how many times have we seen
#
it's their right to show meat
#
even religion doesn't let them kill
#
will not even know how to fly
#
basically you are piggy
#
backing on their faith right
#
they might be eating upma right
#
and I made some people very angry with this
#
when you eat a plate of upma
#
you are killing something like
#
than when you are eating one chicken
#
because agriculture is basically
#
large scale genocide of species
#
under the soil and above the soil
#
vegetarian food therefore
#
which comes about as a consequence of agriculture
#
is sinful for that reason
#
if you care about the life of animals
#
therefore the most moral thing you can do
#
is eat the largest animal possible
#
because then that one life
#
so we get to the politics of this country
#
the politics of this country is anti-Hindu
#
whether we like it or not
#
we will redistribute your wealth
#
because the average Hindu read the congress manifesto
#
and said minorities will be exempted
#
from this, this, this, this
#
so the line of the Waqf board
#
will not be redistributed
#
here is a way to handle this
#
I won't argue with that for now
#
but I will put all the links in the show notes
#
so that the listeners can listen to that for themselves
#
aren't Hindu temples under government control
#
and nothing else is there?
#
I am buying that, I don't know to what extent I am buying that
#
look I buy the whole thing about pseudo-secularism
#
I am a little amused that
#
but I want to answer what is the solution you ask me
#
the solution for that would be that
#
you don't be anti anybody
#
you can see how I am saying this
#
which we don't have right now, we have anti-Muslim-ness as a counter of this
#
so why do you support the BJP then?
#
because there is the only hope to get
#
brutal secularism in India
#
because the only community
#
that will not oppose secularism in India
#
because it is compatible
#
because I want brutal secularism
#
I know the Hindu will never oppose this
#
and which is the best way to get
#
that is why I vote for the BJP
#
I am not going to get Congress
#
did you get brutal secularism?
#
police hiring has improved
#
to attain brutal secularism
#
check the police numbers, hiring has improved
#
check the abysmal numbers
#
is at two levels, one is at CRPF level
#
in state UP has increased hiring
#
check the citizen to police ratio
#
it has improved, it has gone up
#
I am not making these things up
#
doesn't necessarily mean brutal secularism
#
it goes one step at a time
#
I take you back to the line
#
a fundamentalist of a religion
#
can only be like the fundamentals of a religion
#
the fundamentals of Hinduism are not
#
the fundamentals of Islam are
#
I hate everyone who does not believe in that God
#
like you look at the Old Testament
#
the fundamentals of those religions
#
aren't particularly appetizing either
#
and yet they turned out fine
#
yeah but they turned out fine didn't they
#
well they turned out fine, why?
#
it is the contribution of our friends
#
will you attribute it to them
#
do you think they would have given it
#
if we would not have fought for it
#
we as in the atheistic community
#
did not have anything to do with it
#
isn't that the way to bring about change
#
through the ferment of ideas
#
amen to that brother, the only party that accepts
#
which criticizes all religions
#
is the Bharti Janta party
#
and be part of the congress
#
right, so let me take a digression
#
with a brief story before I come to
#
my next question and the brief story is about
#
but I still have good feelings for him because of
#
one thing that happened in 1996 I think it was
#
I don't know how many of my listeners would know this
#
but I am the only writer in the world
#
who has written for both the Wall Street Journal
#
now the Rock Street Journal was this
#
magazine in India you would be familiar with
#
they used to cover the local rock scene
#
and I did many cover stories for them
#
and at one point in time and this was in the analog
#
you know Naked Earth sorry to come in
#
Naked Earth, Arvind Vaz and that band
#
so anyway I covered a concert
#
at I think Rang Bhavan by Pentagram
#
and my long review said that the band
#
was great, Dudlani sucked
#
no no let me finish let me finish
#
let me finish, anybody can suck in one
#
performance boss whoever your favorite musician
#
he is a great musician I like him
#
was great Dudlani sucked
#
now analog generation so no way to immediately
#
respond so in the issue of next month
#
there is a letter to the editor from an
#
angry Pentagram fan who is saying
#
this Amit Verma person knows nothing
#
Dudlani was great right
#
a month passes and then there is a letter
#
to the editor from Vishal Dudlani
#
but no Amit was absolutely right
#
I had a very bad day I let the band down
#
and I thought that is tremendous
#
sort of intellectual honesty
#
so that is my only interaction with him
#
or the only other thing that I
#
and it's not even an interaction
#
but the only other thing I know about him
#
is that he supported the Ahmadmi party which I thought
#
was politically extremely naive but that's okay
#
people are allowed to be naive
#
maybe I was exposed to that world through my India
#
against corruption days
#
let's just say I am not
#
so here is my next question
#
one of the problems I have had
#
with my acquaintances on the left
#
is on the one hand they will rail against 295A
#
and by the way for those of my listeners
#
I will link to columns I have written on 295A
#
but it is one of the terrible anti-free speech
#
laws in India which makes
#
and anybody can take offence at anything
#
so it is pretty ridiculous
#
some of my acquaintances on the left
#
have spoken out against it but at the same time
#
I caught one of them using it on someone
#
when they didn't agree with that person
#
and they said if the law exists why shouldn't I use it
#
and I was like no, on principle you should absolutely
#
and I understand why you did it
#
I am not accusing you of that hypocrisy
#
no no you should accuse me
#
because I wanted to make a mockery of that law
#
so I think that intention is reasonable
#
but to say that I will rail against it
#
but I will use it and that's a problem
#
a formulation I have often shared on the show
#
one of them is proximate and the other two are much deeper
#
now the proximate problem I know you will disagree with
#
which is fine we can agree to disagree
#
and that's a BJP I don't like the government in power
#
though frankly I don't know
#
there is no fucking alternative in the opposition
#
they are a bunch of nikamas
#
I am against a BJP you are for we can agree to disagree on that
#
the other two deeper problems
#
I think you will agree with me
#
one of them is the oppressive nature of the Indian state
#
and that oppressive nature of the Indian state
#
comes directly from our constitution
#
sort of centralized power
#
in an understandable way because the country was falling apart
#
the country wasn't even the country it is today
#
you still had Patel and
#
VP Menon negotiating with the princely states
#
riots breaking out across the country
#
so they centralized power too much
#
and gave the state all kinds of tools
#
our earlier colonial masters
#
used to subjugate the masses
#
and therefore we did not become citizens
#
we remained subjects of a state that ruled us
#
only they had brown skins and not white skins
#
now this is my problem number
#
this is one of the two deeper problems
#
the second deeper problem is
#
we see bigotry and misogyny
#
anti-Muslimness as being
#
but a recurring part of the
#
mainstream which have been with us
#
and what I see today as happening
#
and maybe perhaps shouldn't even blame the bad
#
elements of the BJP so much
#
is because their supply responding to demand
#
politics is downstream of culture
#
our culture, our society
#
is deeply broken in a fundamental way
#
there are many things right with it
#
as has famously been said
#
I think by John Robinson everything you say of India
#
the opposite is also true
#
so there are many things right with it
#
you've articulated many of them quite beautifully
#
the community, the culture
#
all of those things, there are many things wrong with it
#
so these are the three things that
#
worry me, now the BJP obviously we can agree to
#
disagree or we can discuss at a later time
#
one of us may even change his mind
#
and to me it is the smallest problem
#
it is a proximate problem, no government stays in power forever
#
sooner or later things will change
#
I'm not so worried about that, I'm worried about the first
#
I'm worried about the other two
#
like the Indian state, you had that
#
like I did this great episode with
#
Basheesh Bhadra who wrote this book called The Cage Tiger
#
and one deep point he made in that
#
is that if you look at the constitutions of countries
#
and took the character they did because of the circumstances
#
so the American Revolution happens
#
and because of the circumstances
#
and the way it came about
#
you have that accent on
#
personal liberty, you have that
#
first amendment which is the opposite of ours
#
which guarantees free speech, you have
#
the deeply federal nature where the states
#
in the ferment of that moment
#
they got something great, in the ferment of our
#
moment we got something which had many
#
like universal adult franchise
#
and so on and so forth, but which also
#
centralized power and meant an
#
oppressive state and today
#
the BJP will use that oppressive state
#
all these 70 years the Congress has used it
#
everybody has used it, the state
#
is a fundamental deeper problem
#
is the elephant in the room, people don't acknowledge
#
so when it comes to the state and the society
#
what are your thoughts on it?
#
I am 100% in agreement with you
#
I don't know if you remember when I just come to your house
#
is the country where we pick our authoritarian
#
someone chooses someone, someone chooses someone
#
for 5 years this mafia will come, it will take a week
#
that's all we do, I use the even
#
we vote our Bahubali in
#
for those who don't understand
#
what Bahubali means basically
#
or something of that sort
#
and that's been the nature of this country
#
the biggest malaise of our society is actually
#
our constitution which is so authoritarian
#
very hated because I call
#
Indians cheap Stalin and mini Mao's
#
many times for my own people
#
I always say every branch
#
has cheap Stalin sitting
#
every place has cheap Stalin sitting
#
where is the mini Mao sitting?
#
and they keep talking about it
#
anybody who watches my content
#
I have zero doubt about that
#
I have seen how much you are against bigotry
#
I have seen how much you are against caste
#
and all of these things
#
but where I will deviate with you
#
on the societal level is only one thing
#
and fractured a society
#
and I am talking about from 1947
#
the number of violence would not be falling down
#
government after government
#
that is point number one
#
so society is improving
#
where we have robbed our society
#
we have our governments
#
I have no shame in saying this
#
for their own selfish interest
#
mesmerize the audiences
#
but the rest of the people
#
social science has actually now categorically proven
#
that statistically more often than not
#
the wisdom of the crowd works
#
oh all people voting for BJP
#
they are fools no no they have actually seen
#
the person who does not have bathroom
#
who does not have water
#
who does not have electricity
#
he will suddenly get things
#
you will tell him that he is a fool
#
he is not a fool he is the most sensible
#
there is a tangible change in his life
#
because of the bridge he lost
#
I don't believe women are unsafe
#
women are far better off today
#
than they were in the past
#
even in the communal riot
#
even one life lost is bad
#
but the point is earlier riots were
#
the state capacity used to be so low
#
that until we used to kill each other
#
until we used to kill each other
#
until we used to kill each other
#
that democracy is an attitude
#
eventually when it seeps in it takes
#
some time to take it away
#
the difference between us and Pakistan is
#
I still deep down in my core
#
I have said this multiple times
#
the Indian Muslim and Pakistani Muslim are not the same
#
I have no shame in saying
#
I am not generalizing all Pakistani
#
Muslims I am talking about averages
#
nuanced I will give you a
#
I remember sitting at an American airport
#
I was sitting with my back like this
#
there was an Indian Muslim
#
Pakistani Muslim started
#
see this happens to you
#
that poor Indian Muslim
#
and then he just said one line
#
I am very happy in my country
#
he shut the Pakistani up
#
what are you doing there
#
this happened at an American airport
#
I couldn't stand it and I started laughing
#
and then they both looked like he heard
#
but Karu was laughing so much
#
that the Pakistani was beating him
#
he just listened quietly
#
and at the end he just said one punch
#
the Indian Muslim is fundamentally
#
I don't know India then
#
later our house was destroyed
#
I would not say there was no India
#
there was only India at that time
#
it was a much bigger India
#
people get bankrupt and sell their property
#
we got intellectually bankrupt
#
it's a way of how we look at it
#
and I respect your perception
#
it was only India at that time
#
Bulleh Shah was Bulleh Shah
#
and he lived in a land with many kingdoms around him
#
if Bulleh Shah was in an Arab country
#
then his wish would have been fulfilled
#
you know why Bulleh Shah could say what he said
#
no no I buy that and I celebrate that
#
but there is something in this land
#
we should not discount this land
#
and we should not discount the beauty of Indian Muslims
#
I celebrate the four biggest Bollywood stars
#
if you notice in my end
#
in my chapter where I say
#
one of the evidences I give
#
you quote Shah Rukh Khan
#
I quote Shah Rukh, Aamir, Saif and Salman
#
I use the word Indian icon
#
I did not say Muslim icon
#
all these are our icons
#
than I think many people do
#
this is my Indian Muslim, Indian Hindu
#
Indian Christian, Indian Parsi
#
now you could say Kushal
#
you are just a positive person by nature
#
you are a positive, I like that
#
but that's not my response to you
#
but you are a positive person by nature
#
I have more faith in Indians
#
I am not a talkative person
#
I look at longitudinal trends
#
and all the longitudinal trends of India
#
and all the positive things
#
what we say, these are the potholes
#
and speed bumps that are going to come
#
it doesn't mean that we become complacent
#
whenever Amit Verma will fight
#
he will have a Kushal Mehra right beside him
#
our life is getting better
#
in that I am very clear
#
and Naseem Taleb does not understand anything
#
Steven has been on my show by the way
#
India is also getting better
#
such a big thing has happened
#
because Bhalla and Bhasin
#
have written this during BJP
#
their paper which has been published in brookings
#
they are criticizing for no reason
#
Bhasin came on my podcast
#
and we had a detailed discussion
#
this is the time to celebrate
#
now there is Tendulkar line
#
did BJP make Tendulkar line?
#
and according to Tendulkar line
#
extreme poverty has come out
#
so what do Bhalla and Bhasin
#
tell in the conclusion of their paper
#
Boss, time to discard the Tendulkar line
#
we have a new set of problems
#
that's what Bhalla and Bhasin tell in the paper
#
but what does this mean?
#
we are progressing as a society
#
riots are not increasing boss
#
love is increasing in our society
#
how good our electoral system is
#
that what works about our democracy
#
is that there is an easy transfer of power
#
that one party gives this thing away
#
that the elections are so well done
#
and I agree with you that as far as
#
the procedure of the elections
#
I am not skeptical about EVMs
#
at all, I think the tech is very solid
#
that electoral democracy
#
is not just about the casting and counting of votes
#
it is about the whole process
#
which means that parties have to be free to raise funds
#
they have to be free to campaign
#
they have to be out of jail
#
and to be able to sort of
#
participate in the elections
#
and here what we see is that
#
there is a certain kind of tax terrorism at play
#
funders of opposition parties
#
there are IT raids on people who then
#
mysteriously shortly after that
#
end up buying electoral bonds
#
so you have the stick of the state
#
you have the carrot of the state
#
you have the congress bank accounts getting
#
all the big leaders of the
#
now I am not a fan of either the congress or the Ahmadmi party
#
but you being a fan of that should not be a disqualifying criteria
#
it is completely irrelevant
#
the point is that in a democracy
#
this is not what you want
#
and this is like at one level
#
of course as a democratic republic
#
if you want to be a republic you need a great constitution
#
ours is too centralized
#
but that's a different matter, forget the republic part of it
#
even at the electoral democracy part of it
#
it is not just about fidelity
#
and the counting of votes and a peaceful transfer of power
#
it is about all of these things
#
and this actually frankly baffles me
#
because I think you will agree with me
#
that the BJP is almost bound to win
#
the damn election anyway
#
why do all of this shit
#
it makes no sense to me and it is just normatively wrong
#
after what they went through
#
when they were in Gujarat
#
people forget how brutal
#
congress was to Amit Shah
#
I don't know if people remember
#
what they did to Amit Shah
#
bhai saab jail mein the
#
but allegations bhi toh waise hi thi
#
allegations toh yaha pe bhi waise hi hai
#
he was leading the party, he was one random guy
#
no no, he was the home minister
#
you are talking about the Gujarat state level times
#
and Narendra Modi ke saath bhi
#
no, it's not what about it
#
all I am saying is agar kaanoon hai
#
agar aapka fundamental argument hai ki yeh sab kaanoon hatao
#
taaki hum shanti se jee hain, I am with you
#
that's one fundamental argument
#
but what I also want to point to
#
agar corruption karega koi
#
yaar corruption sab karte hain, that is politics
#
yeh chho umeed hain hai ki tu kyo
#
nahi hol yeh rendao banta
#
yaar politician se yeh umeed karna
#
I don't remember a time where
#
under the emergency obviously, but I don't think
#
he is trying to emulate Indira
#
when the entire opposition was in jail
#
but I don't remember a time where you are having an elections
#
that your touting is free and fair
#
but leaders like Kejriwal
#
and Sessodia who are the leaders of their party
#
and both obnoxious politicians
#
I must again clarify but the point is
#
they should not be in fucking jail, they should be out there
#
campaigning, doing a thing, cases hai toh
#
cases chalne doh, I mean
#
it benefits them, they will get the sympathy
#
that's not why the BJP put them in jail
#
BJP ne kisi mein bhi dala hoga
#
innocent and if their cases are
#
saying they should be in jail, I am saying
#
which they claim they are, I think there should be
#
a sympathy wave running across the country
#
ki yeh dekho BJP kya kar rahi hai
#
has anybody used the Occam's Razor
#
said the most simplest answer in
#
people truly dislike these people
#
for what they have done to the country
#
and right now if they are being called corrupt
#
and the case against Kejriwal
#
I have dealt it in detail
#
case. No no, see my personal
#
belief is that like I don't think he is innocent
#
but to me that is irrelevant, the point
#
person in government today would be in jail
#
that doesn't mean that, okay so is it then
#
your case that we should be
#
reconciled to whichever
#
party is in power using all
#
the organs of the state to crush
#
opposition parties like this?
#
We should oppose it, which is why we should oppose
#
No, we should oppose all these laws but should we
#
also say that normatively this behavior
#
is wrong? Normatively this
#
behavior, I don't think so
#
is wrong, this is power for course, this is Indian
#
politics, everybody does it, right
#
now in Punjab, I know 3 YouTubers, I can't name
#
them, because bicharo ki phati hui hai
#
are pro BJP, who are being tortured
#
right now by Punjab government
#
Tortured isn't literally tortured
#
Literally being picked up
#
and put in, so kya karega koi
#
mar mara ke unko protect karne ka
#
kaam kiya jata hai, hara dhar jaka to hota hi hai
#
I don't support many people on the
#
right wing, I don't want to take names
#
hoon tujhe off the record bata dunga
#
magr, they had to run away
#
Normatively it is dirty, what BJP
#
is doing is dirty, but the point
#
it is only, we are again
#
not looking at the symptoms
#
we are looking at the symptoms, not the actual
#
No, the disease, I have said, one of the deeper problems
#
the oppressive state, that is the disease
#
If somebody signs a petition to get rid of all these
#
set of activists want to get rid of
#
them, I'll be the first one to sign
#
them, but the point is, if they exist
#
how can you say, how can you tell a politician
#
That's like batsmen tu batting kyo karta hai
#
arey ho toh karega hai yaar
#
Toh point ye ki ye laws laaye kyon
#
aur tab toh kuch bole nahi
#
Basically yaar Amit kya hota hai mahalo hai
#
ye wo hi hota hai, har aadni apna bahu bali
#
dekhta hai, main sirf sach bol deta ho
#
I was speaking against it when the
#
Congress was locking up people
#
as well, for example, there was an uproar
#
when the BJP arrested the activist
#
Arun Ferreira, the point is the Congress also
#
locked him up I think in 2011 and he wrote a book
#
about it of his time in jail
#
The laws are incredibly bad
#
I mean that is a fundamental
#
reality we must all accept
#
Can we have all left and right people coming
#
together and fighting these laws?
#
Who has the incentive to do so?
#
Especially people like you and I
#
Who are you and I? We are
#
players within the system have to do so
#
I mean I at least try to speak to the
#
BJP people and I always try
#
to tell them and they do lend
#
The sense that I get from a lot of people
#
is that there are decent
#
politicians within all of the parties
#
in fact people within the Congress have
#
their current feudal lord as it were
#
but that's a really difficult
#
what friends tell me is that there
#
are people within the BJP, within the Congress
#
within Aam Aadmi Party, I personally have
#
a whole bunch of these people who
#
are decent, who are considered highly
#
within the BJP for example they are more
#
in the Vajpayee and Pramod Mahajan mold
#
What is your kind of sense of it?
#
Like I remember Keshava Guha wrote a great piece
#
once where he said that you look
#
at the accidents of history that
#
Pramod Mahajan gets killed by his brother
#
and that is definitely something that changes the
#
power center of the BJP and enables
#
Modi to come to power later
#
In the Congress you have Madhav Rao's India
#
Jitendra Prasad, Rajesh Pilot
#
all dying within a short period of each other
#
so the young guys who could have taken over the
#
party are gone and Sonia's Moribund
#
and if not for these accidents of history
#
it could have been very different and I wonder
#
what you feel about this because for example
#
when I look at independent India
#
I really think Nehru was a complete outlier in
#
his party. Now he was an outlier in
#
good ways in some ways but he was also
#
an outlier in terrible bad ways
#
and if any other, if Nehru
#
didn't exist for example or if he
#
stepped down in 1950 as at one
#
point he was planning to do, anyone
#
who took his place would have been
#
a leader with sympathies
#
for I think the kind of Hindutva that
#
support you know people like Patel
#
and Rajendra Prasad and Gobind Ballapant
#
and all were and Lal Bahadur
#
Shastri who was in fact home minister
#
of UP when the idol was installed in the
#
you know all of these were
#
you know Hindu leaders in a sense
#
but not in the extreme sense that
#
we later came to associate with
#
other parties and people would argue
#
that there could have been a different trajectory
#
people could argue that maybe
#
Nehru's doctrinaire commitment to
#
Fabian socialism wouldn't have been there which kept
#
hundreds of millions of people in poverty for decades
#
longer than necessary. His daughter certainly
#
wouldn't have taken over and committed the great
#
sins she did not just with the emergency but
#
with her terrible economic policies
#
humanity. So how much do you think
#
contingency plays a role? Like I remember when
#
Sita Patil did an episode with me on
#
his book on the BJP before Modi
#
and one of the points he made if I remember
#
correctly is that you know
#
Vajpayee and Advani were just canny politicians
#
they were supplier responding to demand in a sense
#
and his point was Modi and Shah are true
#
believers. You know I don't know to what extent
#
that is true but what is your
#
sense of it how much of a difference do individuals
#
if the Gandhis weren't in the Congress
#
for example who knows what
#
would have come out of that flux politics
#
is a game of unknown unknowns but maybe
#
there would have been something much better and maybe there
#
would have been a credible opposition not like
#
the joke we have now. So what
#
is your sense of the role that contingency
#
plays in history because it's tempting
#
to sort of take the view
#
that there are these vast currents of history
#
and trends are inevitable and things always
#
go in one direction but
#
another view is that thora counterfactual
#
agar aap karo you change one or two events
#
history could be damn different. What's your
#
but we can only play with
#
the hand that we've been dealt with
#
but I have something to add
#
I don't believe the BJP is going to be
#
remaining intact for more
#
all organizations break
#
not the Sang. The Sang will stay
#
Sang has something deeply
#
I think the baseline of
#
India is going to truly
#
a Congress Mukta Bharat
#
by the time we will have
#
we will be a 10 trillion
#
with a 10 trillion dollar plus economy
#
we have many more haves
#
when we have more haves
#
different economic demands
#
different economic policy
#
Hindutva pretty much is the baseline
#
socially in our society
#
I believe not just 10 trillion I think will be 15
#
trillion. I'm very confident about
#
you will see the BJP breaking
#
they will absolutely agree on the
#
India will go into a socialist
#
both will agree on the larger fundamentals
#
if Pramod ji would have been alive
#
or if X would have happened
#
or if Y would have happened I don't
#
how much do we know Mr. Modi
#
what is your sense of Modi you met him you spent time
#
with him I spent only one hour with him
#
for 2013 whenever that was
#
I don't remember the year I remember it was June
#
or July I was there for one
#
hour with another person nobody else
#
I met many politicians in my life
#
his ability to understand concepts
#
and I speak in dense ways
#
I don't speak in simplistic ways
#
is understanding through the follow up
#
somebody is understanding you
#
the people of India want
#
I was campaigning on my own way
#
because I believed the country needed a change
#
what was fascinating was he was asking
#
me why are you doing this
#
why are you supporting me
#
I was like why would a guy want to know
#
why am I supporting him like should you
#
be happy I am supporting you
#
he was like no I am not convinced why
#
and the follow ups were so interesting
#
that he would be like okay you are doing this
#
but what is the use of this
#
why would anyone be convinced
#
I was like this is the reason
#
this will happen this will happen
#
but how do you know this is the policy
#
you have done this and that in Gujarat
#
he was like okay you have seen my Gujarat work
#
otherwise I wouldn't have come to you
#
and it was a fascinating conversation
#
and then at the end of it
#
people might think it's an act
#
one thing I want to clarify publicly here
#
there there was nobody to showboard to
#
Dharidra Modi, Kushal Mehra and one more person
#
and when I tried because I touch
#
my culture I touch people's feet
#
the rest I don't respect I don't touch their feet
#
and many other BJP politicians whom I met
#
I don't touch their feet
#
I tried to touch Modiji's feet
#
now people might say he acts publicly
#
privately because there was nobody
#
with me there was no camera
#
his simple words were people don't touch their feet
#
I am not even making this up
#
he actually said that to me
#
I have never touched anybody else's feet
#
I don't touch politicians' feet
#
I tried to touch Modiji's feet
#
because when I spoke to him
#
I was like I can respect this man
#
I don't see that potential
#
in any other BJP leader
#
I was always fascinated by
#
Vajpayee was just good speeches
#
that's all it was I mean great speeches
#
building the organization
#
so there is only once I have taken a favor from
#
a politician friend of mine and that was
#
I wanted to get Advani ji's biography
#
so I requested that friend of mine
#
and kudos to her she got it arranged
#
and I went to Advani ji's house
#
you had a great impact on me
#
this thing because I got inspired by you
#
I did not get inspired by Narendra Damodara
#
interested in all of this because of Lal Krishna
#
Advani and I still have
#
the past is beyond your
#
we should look at the past and only
#
dwell on what we can control
#
sort of joke off at the thought of
#
a counterfactual I think sometimes
#
it's interesting to think about the past in that way
#
because what often happens is that
#
before something happens
#
it is always uncertain it is probabilistic
#
you don't know if it will happen
#
then it happens and it has 100% happened or 0%
#
happened and then you solidify
#
it into a narrative and that narrative
#
feeds into the narrative you always
#
have you already have in your head and then that
#
kind of becomes a strand
#
so if a particular man takes
#
over a particular party at a particular point
#
in time then it almost seems as if
#
it was destined to be and that's how it was
#
always going to be and this is the
#
if Pramodji was there it would have been tougher for Narendra
#
it's quite obvious but it doesn't mean Pramodji would
#
necessarily win or lose
#
that is who plays their cards right at that point
#
but he would govern differently
#
he would try to govern more in the mould of Vajpayee
#
for example and Vajpayee
#
I feel our two best prime ministers were
#
Vajpayee and Narasimha Rao
#
and I think he would have governed
#
more in that kind of mould
#
paying attention to the policy people to
#
experts to economists etc
#
I think Pramodji would have been a great counter
#
we had a great counter inside the system
#
now he is no longer with the system
#
people forget Arun Jaitley had
#
a lot of say in the government
#
anybody who knows what the camp is
#
even today there are people with Jaitley
#
whoever was close to Jaitley
#
I will ask you to elaborate off the record
#
it is not good to take names
#
but those who were close
#
they are in big posts in the cabinet
#
ok so before I turn from the
#
political to the personal a couple of final questions
#
and I will ask them together
#
which would make you stop voting for them
#
and what could the opposition do
#
which would make you start voting for them
#
its minority appeasement
#
and starts looking at Indians
#
then I cannot vote for them
#
I know the BJP will not
#
I know this country cannot let that happen
#
down the road in democracy for
#
one tocha BJP to even try that
#
but the othering happens in creepy
#
in creeping ways for example
#
when you ban cow slaughter in a particular state
#
is an industry that is dominated by Muslims
#
for example you are indirectly hurting them
#
but cow slaughter after BJP came
#
extra cow slaughter was banned
#
every single state where there is cow slaughter
#
that has been there since the 1950s
#
60s 70s the only thing that
#
changed in Maharashtra was two breeds
#
and to save those breeds I remember very clearly
#
in the Mahavikas Aghadi
#
not this Mahavikas Aghadi
#
I am talking about the BJP
#
that time this whole cow slaughter thing had come
#
Maharashtra always had a cow slaughter law
#
the only thing was added was two breeds
#
wasn't there something in UP if I vaguely remember
#
UP always had a cow slaughter law
#
you can check the history of cow slaughter laws in India
#
those who have come have come before
#
Madhya Pradesh had brought under BJP
#
they had brought in the 90s
#
Congress has had cow slaughter laws
#
Congress has introduced cow slaughter laws
#
in so many places in India
#
but I feel that should be a state's power
#
why should the center interfere in it
#
like if Kerala wants to eat beef
#
who the hell is the center to tell Kerala
#
if North East wants to eat beef
#
who the hell is the North East to
#
the center to tell the North East
#
state should have power
#
like I hate the alcohol ban in Gujarat
#
but state should have the power to control the narrative
#
and the destiny of the states
#
if people don't like those people
#
who are getting this they will vote them out
#
we should have some faith in democracy
#
something that I don't support
#
I don't eat beef but if somebody wants to
#
they can but then I also am opposed
#
to the social practice of you know
#
rubbing beef on people's throat
#
Periyarite or Periyarite
#
adjacent activist posted beef photos
#
and non-veg photos wishing people Mavir Jainty
#
I mean listen if you do
#
these kinds of things then you are just an asshole
#
like you just are a wild
#
person and similarly somebody
#
during the day of which is dear to
#
Muslims doing something against
#
them then also you are an asshole
#
the good thing is most people are not assholes
#
they have Muslim neighbors
#
and the important thing is we should not lock assholes
#
and being an asshole is not a crime
#
which is why you know the SCST act which the BJP
#
has made even more draconian under
#
it you know it's very interesting
#
congress doesn't oppose that
#
done to the SCST act why isn't anyone
#
opposing it check the provisions
#
that the BJP has written
#
arre aur sakht ho gaya aur criticism
#
nahi allowed hai aur jail me dalna hai
#
aur bail provisions hard kar di hai
#
inhone BJP ne apne under SCST
#
kis disha mein aap desh ko leke ja rahe ho
#
muth se bada koi SCST supporter ho hoga kya
#
itna bada supporter ho mein
#
freedom to freedom honi chahiye ki nahi
#
aap yaar SCST act ke andar
#
kisi ko bhi utha ke daal dete ho
#
koi bail nahi hai kuch sunwai nahi hai
#
toh ye BJP ne kiya nahi hai
#
koi bhi criticize nahi karta BJP ko iske le
#
akela mai gada hoon jo karta hain
#
BJP ko iske le criticize
#
kar kya rahe ho yaar sharab nahi aati tumko
#
remember they had introduced the life
#
imprisonment for blasphemy a few years
#
every political party supported it
#
including the bharti janta party Punjab division
#
I am not surprised because their assumption
#
would be when we come to power we will use
#
this against our enemies
#
yeh desh mein saare saare
#
You know getting far more entertainment and art that caters almost specifically to them and that's a beautiful thing
#
I'm thinking of this in the context of I don't know. It'll sound nebulous
#
I can't I haven't articulated a way to put it while I'm speaking to you
#
But maybe in the world of meaning like how do we find meaning in our lives and or how do we?
#
Make sense of the world and back in the day the mainstream answer to this was
#
Religion or the culture that religion brings with it or that sense of broader community that you talked about
#
But we live far more splintered
#
Existences today with different kinds of experiences now obviously all the old religions are still powerful new religions have sprung up like we discussed
#
But otherwise there are all these sort of splinters happening
#
So not just in the context of religion, but in general when you see all of this
#
What is your sense of it because even as a content creator
#
Your life is completely different from what it would have been if you were the same age in the 1990s
#
Where you would be writing to newspapers and saying please let me publish this article and some Chutiya gatekeeper would say key
#
No, no, no, no, you need a year and etc. Etc. You'd be bound to a format
#
You'd be bound to the news cycle. It would be horrible
#
So you you know you so one you're a participant in this world yourself and to at some level you are a
#
Consumer also like I really admire and I envy that you can read for three hours a day or you can consume
#
Focus content for five hours. I find it hard to do boss
#
I get into swiping and scrolling mode and it takes a lot of willpower for me to you know
#
Actually sit down and read a book and all of those things
#
So what is your sense about this new world that we live in the splintering of existences and how does this change that?
#
sort of the meaning-making apparatus I
#
Think in our case today
#
weird sort of a middle stage where
#
We are facing new problems because of new technologies
#
Struggling to find solutions to those technologies
#
Eventually the solution for our attention deficit
#
My case, I don't know why I am able to read it
#
It's just I think I just I think I have just made it a discipline
#
Willpower is a muscle. You've just been exercising it all these years
#
Yeah, so it's just become second nature to me like if I put my mind to it. I just do it
#
But how will young kids do it is something that I am also constantly struggling
#
To find an answer like so many times some young boy girl will ask you. How do you manage to read so much?
#
Like I don't know the answer. I truly don't know. I'm like I am the way I am
#
nobody you must have done something to become like that and
#
Not to be a reductionist. Sometimes I get scared like is this something in my gene?
#
I'm not saying it is and I don't want to be like all bro sciencey on this
#
Mix of the things obviously there is something in it. It's like, you know
#
My favorite quote by Steven Pinker is nature gives us knobs nurture turns him
#
Yeah, you obviously had a big knob and and then yeah, but that's so fucked up
#
It is what it is. Yeah, but that's so fucked up. That's so unfair
#
That's unfair and exploitative in a very weird way
#
Like I know intelligence and
#
Our 50% correlation a by the science is
#
So there are it's all luck, right?
#
Genetics is like the circumstances of your birth are luck. Everything is luck. It is fucked up
#
But it's reality. I'm a socialist sound girl. How do we fix this then? It's not socialist. So so she okay
#
I I want to say this because if you talk of equality and unfairness and all that you're not socialist
#
Socialist when you talk of straight coercion to fix a problem, that's when you're socialist
#
How do we fix a fucking problem? Like what if the things that I don't get bothered by are
#
then my genes were like that and then
#
Like what is the solution to this fuckery then that that's what's case like one solution
#
I always tell young kids is do intercast marriages
#
It's a good year third-class dish here. We're fucking unique diseases in this country. What a chutey attacks country, man
#
Yeah, if you had an endogamy for so long, I mean, I mean, why are chutey? I mean, I'm thinking aloud
#
And I'm thinking there are three solutions one is personal to our social slash economic
#
The personal is that then we have a duty to make the most of whatever privileges we have and whatever luck we've had and
#
Be humble at the same time and helpful to others
#
That's number one in the personal domain and in the social domain number one. You want to you know, increase
#
Productivity of society in the economy. So you eliminate poverty eventually, which is a long way away here market capitalism
#
Yeah, and and and number two you want to make sure that you work forever on getting equal opportunities for everyone
#
not equal outcomes, which is crazy and which is
#
I give you tips to young kids. Sometimes I say
#
actively seek cognitive dissonance, I
#
Don't know if that makes sense. No, it makes a lot of sense
#
You want to be challenged and get out of your comfort zone
#
So what I tell them is that if you are a BJP voter every day the first thing in the morning
#
You should read is scroll and the wire
#
Before you read Swaraj or print
#
I think print and scroll are respectable journalism wire and Swaraj. I'm not so sure
#
but I think Swaraj is also, you know, it depends on who's writing like if Arvindan is writing Jaggi is writing then I'll really
#
think Swaraj, I think the owners of Swaraj truly are
#
fantastic human beings and
#
I have tremendous respect for them. If you meet them, you'll actually end up liking them a lot
#
You'll end up liking them a lot
#
I always tell these few things that actively seek cognitive dissonance is the first step in this
#
How does one do that specifically in every incident?
#
the default position is
#
When you're making a larger decision, obviously mundane existence with you just go with the flow
#
But when you're formulating an opinion
#
Mistrust your priors as a default position
#
Look for evidence to change your mind
#
Then look for evidence to
#
Convince your mind that you were right and then don't make a decision sleep over it
#
Usually what I have seen is that after a few hours
#
Your probabilities of ending up having a more reformed view are very much better
#
in today's world because we are there it's
#
Second I always advise young children when I talk to them is don't have so many opinions
#
It's not cool to be opinionated. It's cool to be accurate
#
We have incentivized opinionating we have weaponized opinionating
#
Today when we had this discussion you asked me questions on economics. I was not trying to wiggle out
#
I just said by some to take a name. I'm going to
#
Dora was based level Malabar, but man, it's not a subject philosophy ma'am a
#
What's up economics by mafka, no, so much for that beyond the point Joe atahe, wo bolunga
#
I'm I have no addiction to opinionating
#
I think this is a consequence of the bad incentives of social media where you go online
#
You're tempted to join a try for community
#
And once you join the tribe the only way to raise your status within it is by having strong opinions extreme opinions
#
Attacking people on the other side not arguments
#
Just people attacking people on your own side for not being pure enough and it's a road to hell and like we were discussing earlier
#
I mean, I think that's a vocal minority the silent majority and you must have realized this because I am sure that
#
Most of the people who listen to your podcast and reach out to you are the silent majority kind of people
#
Yeah, or they're open to nuance both sides of the aisle
#
The third thing I would say is the most important in today's information landscape is have a very good and stable personal life
#
Why are people constantly online
#
They have no life offline
#
Meri life itni beautiful hai
#
ki abhi mein aapke saath yeh record karunga
#
Maharaj, Abhijit, Aiyar, Mitra mere ghar pe baithe ho hain. Haise mei meri wife ke saath
#
Mai, Abhijit meri wife, nikalage meri ghani mein
#
Aur jahenge bahar, phir Harsh, Madhusudan, Gupta aur uski wife ke saath baithenge
#
Aur mast mei pizza khainge aur gapa maare ge
#
Pizza, pizza mat khao, very unearthly
#
Chicken platter khaalenge
#
So, basically, gay planning
#
And I have realized that
#
The bliss of having an offline life
#
A lot of this negativity
#
Aap offline life ko bhul chuke ho
#
Wo anand picture thi Rajesh Khanna wali
#
Usmein itna sundar line thi Rajesh Khanna jo Amitabh Bachchan ko bolte hain
#
Ki babu mishaye, hum us
#
Har din ki choti-choti khushiyon ko
#
And it is a Buddhist thought
#
It reminds me of something that one of my friends said
#
That how you do the small things is how you do the big things
#
I literally live my life on these principles
#
I actually truly live my life like this
#
He said that I am actually a very content person
#
I am truly a very content
#
You have given a new spin to the term content creation
#
And this is something I had again explained
#
That the beauty of this culture which I learned
#
There is a big difference between us and West
#
There is a big difference between us and West
#
West only celebrates the rich
#
Or celebrates the powerful
#
We also celebrate the fakir
#
This has become a little reductionist
#
Different individuals celebrate different things
#
First of all they were very rich
#
And they were very powerful
#
What is the qualifying criteria
#
What is the qualifying criteria
#
I am not talking about today's babes
#
I am talking about Baahubali Shah
#
I am talking about Meera Bhai
#
But he made the culture
#
And when I was studying history
#
That's why I like Bulleh Shah
#
The man who says I am not
#
You know which modern cricketer said a version of this
#
There is a story that Ashish Nehra
#
Did something online 10 years ago
#
It was being cancelled on social media
#
So the journalist went to him
#
To ask that sir you are getting cancelled
#
How do you feel about it
#
And that old Nokia phone
#
It was not a smart phone
#
It was an old Nokia phone
#
And I thought this is exactly like that
#
What will you kill me I am not
#
Whatever you quoted from Bulleh Shah
#
Because if you are not present in the arena
#
What are they going to do
#
If you don't have an offline life
#
You will be online all the time
#
I don't seek validation from anybody
#
As long as my mom, my dad, my brother
#
My sister in law, my wife, my niece loves me
#
How much willpower does this take
#
Like at one level obviously you are fortunate to have the kind of family
#
You do in the kind of offline life
#
But how much willpower does it take
#
I will not pick up the phone, I will pick up the book
#
Initially it's willpower
#
Like when you start to decide to leave sugar
#
Then it becomes part of your system
#
I think it's that, you should have a rule
#
That I will not do more than 1.5 hours of social media
#
People have a lot of problems with Joe Rogan
#
Joe Rogan taught me a very profound thing
#
He said shoot and scoot
#
How many times has Joe Rogan said it on his podcast
#
They are hitting stones, let them hit
#
Secondly I know that I will not say such things
#
It's like Neil Simon said there are two kinds of people in the world
#
The doers and the watchers
#
And the watchers sit around watching the doers do
#
If I want to talk about something
#
I didn't have any intention
#
If you are sad because of it
#
I say again that you should die
#
Do you think that Islamism should die
#
I say again that Islamism should die
#
And every objectively bad idea should die
#
And I will drop a nuclear bomb metaphorically
#
I will drop one more on it just to make sure
#
What is your value in my life
#
I have a friend on the internet
#
He taught me beautiful things
#
A random person comes and asks us
#
What we are doing on the internet
#
That is also a digital way
#
That is not our community
#
We have lied to ourselves
#
That it is our community
#
It is not our community
#
What you and I have done
#
Is a far more enriching experience
#
Than us tweeting at each other
#
But tweeting is 280 characters
#
Today I learned so many things from you
#
That you questioned my prayers
#
To me that matters more
#
And you know what matters more
#
This is something I feel very strongly about
#
What matters more is not just that we had this one conversation
#
This is part of a process where we will speak again
#
It is about the habit of getting into conversations
#
It is about the habit of being curious
#
That is something I try to cultivate in myself
#
My prayer has always been
#
Why do I want to be wrong all the time
#
And that is how I live my life
#
If somebody thinks I am wrong there
#
So my approach towards that
#
I first learned from Pranay Kotasane
#
Where he used the phrase
#
Strong opinions weakly held
#
And I really love that phrase
#
And the way I approach it
#
I am always willing to be corrected
#
Please correct me if I understand something wrong
#
When it comes to my values
#
By now I am completely set in them
#
And you know what my values are
#
Individual freedom, consent, all of that
#
In those I am completely set and I cannot be shifted
#
And I will hold my ground
#
But when it comes to facts of the world
#
I am completely open because the world is too complex
#
No one can figure most things out
#
So there I am completely open
#
That is how I sort of think about it
#
And on social media always
#
Before outraging on anything wait for 72 hours
#
Holes will come in everything
#
If it is Congress's then BJP's hole will come out
#
Kushal you should have told me this 10 years ago
#
I also learnt it in hard way
#
A very good friend of mine
#
He taught me this lesson
#
Kushal, wait for 72 hours
#
If you wait for 72 hours
#
You will get to know the truth
#
Beautiful piece of wisdom
#
He taught me this and I learnt it from him
#
I was also very emotive
#
Now I try to wait for 72 hours
#
But my failure rate is 95%
#
Consciously this is a rule
#
This is a mental muscle
#
Just like any other body muscle
#
You need discipline in life
#
If you are not disciplined
#
Discipline is very important
#
Luckily I am very disciplined
#
I have always kept that
#
I hope I can maintain it all the time
#
Like you said it is a muscle
#
If you are consuming content 5 hours a day
#
I keep trying to be more disciplined
#
It is something to learn from
#
My penultimate question is
#
You said this will happen after 20 years
#
If I continue that thought
#
About the current trajectory of things
#
And what gives you despair
#
Hours ago in our conversation
#
Money solves a lot of problems
#
So India's growth will just
#
When there are too many haves
#
Then they are like stop fighting
#
My Mercedes and your Mercedes
#
Both Mercedes will break
#
Because you and I think at an evolutionary level
#
We don't think at any other level
#
Listen it just makes sense
#
So I think 20 years on the line
#
Conflict will be much less
#
What scares me is the social media
#
Authoritarian tendencies on people of
#
If you have this authoritarian tendency
#
With these kinds of barbaric laws
#
That we have on our books
#
And let's name all of them
#
295A, 153A, section 124
#
Yes, I don't believe the Shadishian law
#
In India is good, it is bad
#
Understand whatever you want
#
Section 144 being so bad
#
Being made more draconian
#
I don't know if you read the Law Commission
#
Last Law Commission report on hate speech
#
Will feel like committing suicide
#
Yes, under this government
#
Law Commission is independent
#
Thank God BJP has not adopted it
#
This will give a big problem
#
About the importance of
#
Lack of empathy in the Indian population
#
That our cops have the highest
#
Depression rates in the world
#
There are so many high depression rates
#
There is no one worse than us
#
Those poor people work for 48 hours
#
Have you ever seen a policeman sleeping in Ganpati?
#
Did someone go and ask him for water?
#
Oh brother, the bus is here
#
I think that is the fear
#
The standard international norm
#
This society is by and large non-violent
#
So we don't fight with each other
#
Police reform wood bank in India?
#
There is no police reform
#
There is no police reform wood bank in India
#
Cops need to be paid more
#
Cops need to be trained to treat us better
#
Why are there no body camps on cops in India?
#
The next day a cop will come
#
And beat a random citizen
#
You are not allowed to hit me like this
#
Did you see a cop hit him?
#
He is not allowed to hit
#
I told you, that cheap Stalin
#
Cheap Stalin or small Mao
#
Mini Mao and cheap Stalin
#
Which is why when I told you about the next book
#
That is my biggest fear
#
The trends of our society
#
We can go anywhere and social media
#
Can be weaponized for this
#
Which is why my biggest worry is that
#
Without freedom nothing exists
#
The West is beautiful in political freedom
#
Restrictive in spiritual freedom
#
Very bad in political freedom
#
How is the West restrictive in spiritual freedom?
#
Plasphemy and apostasy is in your spirituality
#
Religion is not in the West
#
Spiritual freedom is so high in India
#
That despite that they are like
#
You see there is a fundamental difference here
#
We need the political freedom of the West
#
And the spiritual freedom of the East
#
That's what we should all fight for
#
If by asking for their political system
#
People will say I am their agent
#
You are making your enemies
#
Because their political freedom is much better
#
Objectively better system
#
I mean the sign of a good system is
#
That even if the worst person in the world
#
They can't do any damage
#
Because the system is so robust
#
And the checks and balances are so great
#
And the US is like way closer to that
#
Than many other countries including India
#
It is still the best and the most amazing
#
Robust society that I have seen
#
After living there I can say that
#
I still go there so often
#
And I stay there for a while
#
And the spiritual system that the East has come up with
#
The brilliance of the Eastern
#
The spiritual pantheon is so profound
#
Like I always tell my Gora Dosts
#
I was like boss we need your politics
#
And that's what the world should aim for
#
And if the world gets that
#
Then I can attain Moksha
#
For me and my listeners
#
Recommend books, films, music that mean a lot to you
#
And that mean so much to you that you
#
Share them with everyone
#
First film I would say is Anand
#
Changed me fundamentally
#
Kahi Door Jab Dindal Joy
#
That last scene where Will Smith goes
#
With his hands up and the line is
#
Now this is what I call
#
That was such a powerful movie
#
Third one people will judge me for
#
Is just so intoxicating
#
In one particular song by Tupac
#
I wonder if heaven's got a ghetto
#
The profundity of that thought
#
Is talking about his death
#
And then he says that I am a Christian
#
I wonder if heaven's got a ghetto
#
The profundity of that thought
#
Ke kitne gaane hai I love that
#
The closest to my heart Bulleh Shah
#
The closest to my heart
#
Anything you would like to recite?
#
What is on the lips has to be said
#
I once used it with my friend
#
I once used it with my friend
#
I was like, Harsh had once said that there was a line that Vajpayeeji, a politician you
#
like a lot, in Savarkar's memorial, addressing Pula Desh Pandey, had said that there is a
#
weakness in his atheism as well.
#
Vajpayeeji said this line.
#
When Harsh said this line to me, I said, I remembered Bullesh, that in each and every
#
place there is a face of God, where it is apparent, where it is hidden.
#
That's what Bullesh Shah had said, that there is a God in everyone, somewhere it is visible,
#
Now I don't know if there is a God, I think there is not, I live my life like there is
#
But if there is, then it's okay, you'll know.
#
I think that's my, I know, people find poetry, not very, like I didn't read Shakespeare,
#
I don't know anything about Shakespeare, I only read Bullesh Shah and Watalby, I didn't
#
come out of those, so Shakespeare is very far away, I have so much profundity, there's
#
no hierarchy, everything is different, I get so much profundity in my Punjabi poetry,
#
so I didn't go far, I'm fine in Punjab, I got a lot in that.
#
Kushal, thank you so much for spending so many hours with me, I think I listened to
#
this conversation more than once to process all the things that you said, learnt a lot
#
from this and from your wonderful book, and I'm so excited, you're writing two more books,
#
Thanks, Amit, it was an absolute pleasure, I admired your work, which is why I had reached
#
out to you almost a year ago, that we should have a conversation, and I hope when people
#
listen to this, the one lesson I want them to carry out is, that we don't judge people,
#
we don't want to live in a world where we can't be friends anymore, I always say this,
#
if you don't have a congressy friend, something is wrong with you, if you're a BJP person,
#
and to the congress person, if you don't have a BJP friend, something is deeply wrong with
#
you, you should always have, don't burn bridges over stupid politicians who are corrupt anyways.
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Wise words, and I'd say dialogue is important, so keep talking and keep listening, and both
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are important, talking and listening, so thank you so much.
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Thanks Amit, thanks a lot, pleasure is mine.
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If you enjoyed this episode, share it with whoever you think might be interested, check
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out the show notes, enter RabbitHoles at will, all the links to Kushal's work and his websites
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are there, hop on over to your nearest bookstore, online or offline, and pick up Kushal's wonderful
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book, Nastik, you can also follow Kushal on Twitter, aka X, at Kushal underscore Mera,
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you can follow me on Twitter, at Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A, you can browse past episodes
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of The Scene And The Unseen, at sceneunseen.in, and any podcast app of your choice.
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Thank you for listening.
