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Pretty much everyone who's trying to make the world a better place is swimming against
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The cost of this is high, especially if you're in the public eye, especially if you're fighting
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against a hateful politics that has sprung up to cater to a fractured society.
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You will get trolled and abused, you may have lies spread about you, you may get death threats,
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you may even go to jail.
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All these have happened to my guest today.
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And yet, instead of weakening their resolve, it has made them stronger.
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They could have chosen to look away, to think of their immediate self-interest, to leave
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And that's why I love my conversation with them so much.
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We all know the work they do in the public domain.
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But I wanted to know what they are like as human beings.
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And I think you'll agree with me at the end of this episode that these guys are not just
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good citizens, they are good people.
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Perhaps those two qualities go together?
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Welcome to The Scene and The Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics and
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Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
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Welcome to The Scene and The Unseen.
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My guests today are Mohammed Zubair and Pratik Sinha of AltNews.
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They started AltNews a few years ago as a way to bust misinformation.
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And in the time since then, misinformation has been weaponized at an industrial scale
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and is a dominant feature of our politics.
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This has made their work even more important.
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And their battle is not just a political one.
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They have always busted misinformation from all political parties.
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Their only enemy is falsehood, their only loyalty is to watch truth.
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From fact-checkers, Zubair and Pratik have evolved to becoming deep thinkers about the
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nature of our society, about how our brains function, about the human condition.
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They don't just think about the what and the how, but also about the why.
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They're higher order thinkers, but their thinking goes hand in hand with their actions.
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They're out there in the public square and they've paid a price for this.
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Zubair has even been to jail and experience we talk about in this episode.
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I had recorded an episode of The Scene and The Unseen with Pratik in 2019 and I'd ask
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you to think of that as a companion episode to this one.
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I didn't repeat what we spoke about there, including Pratik's life and history.
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So in this conversation, you'll get more of Zubair's life story.
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And of course, you'll get lots of freewheeling conversation and be exposed to two fine minds
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at work whose insights come not from bookish knowledge, but from engaging with the real
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But before we get to it, let's take a quick commercial break.
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If I had to define my life in one word, it would be this, procrastination.
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I have a dozen unwritten books in my head, multiple YouTube shows, even a podcast or
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two, and I have so much problem with discipline.
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If you are like me, allow me to offer you a solution.
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Two dear friends of mine, Deepak Gopalakrishnan, also known as Chuck Gopal, and Utsav Mamoria
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have started something called the 6% Club.
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If you have a project you want to get off the ground, then join the 6% Club and Chuck
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There will be live sessions over weekends, one-on-one personalized mentoring sessions,
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there dreaming about a project, but actually creating it.
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Now, let me tell you something.
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I vouch for these guys.
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Chuck and Utsav have both been on the scene in the Unseen, they're outstanding creators.
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You will get a 10% discount if you use the sign up code Unseen.
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So head on over to the 6% Club.com slash Unseen for 10% off and your dreams coming true.
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You waited long enough.
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6% Club.com slash Unseen.
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Prateek and Zubair, welcome to the scene in the Unseen.
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So I want to start this by playing a message for you.
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I had asked my writing students on our WhatsApp group, there are 800 of us, 800 on the WhatsApp
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group that, you know, I'm recording with you guys.
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Do you have any questions to ask or themes you want me to explore beyond the obvious
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Most of them said that, I don't want to ask anything, I just want to thank you.
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And one of them said it so eloquently that I said, bro, record it and send it.
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So this is Pratyush Sinha.
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So thank you Prateek and Zubair.
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These are actually what tears in my eyes.
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Thank you guys so much, because I thought it's a great opportunity for me to play this
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and also from me and just I know practically everybody I know, which shows what my circles
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Thank you guys for what you do.
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We've recorded one episode together, Prateek, you and I, and I realized now I was listening
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to it last night and I realized that that was almost exactly five years ago.
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It was released on August 2019.
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So and we've delved a bit into your background there also and we'll delve more.
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And of course, I'm very curious to find out more about Zubair and we'll talk a lot about
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But in that time, I want to first ask both of you a sort of a larger question.
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Five years ago, we recorded and at that time, it felt like the atmosphere, which already
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then was something like what Pratyush just described, you guys are doing something which
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is necessary and important.
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And there was a sense of urgency to it.
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And I would feel that some of that urgency has it been replaced with like a steadier
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This is not just an immediate fight, a long term game.
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We're playing a long game.
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Is there a sense like what have you learned about this country and about yourself in these
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And in a sense, a question to both of you about what have you learned in the journey
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So yes, we talked in August 2019.
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And since then, I feel that there has been a lot of personal growth.
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Personal growth in the sense of understanding the world.
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Two people who were engineers were a limited understanding of the world.
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So in five years, it has been a very long journey.
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But for me, firstly, I have had time to sort of sit back and observe the world more and
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For me, that, you know, where is all of this coming from?
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Where is my constant curiosity has been key.
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What is intrinsic in human nature that that if you put fear in them, then they are almost
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You know, this sub sub may a common thread.
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And that just keeps flourishing.
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So so I have attempted to understand key key what is happening within us.
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And this is not just and what I've realized is key.
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This is not just about political misinformation.
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We saw, you know, how you know, what COVID actually gave a very condensed view of what
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misinformation can do that to to the society.
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That is, anyone is saying anything during COVID.
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You know, sleeps in the cottage and, you know, takes us to different places around.
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He eats some ice, he drinks lemon water, you know, takes us to the child spiritual center
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So we can know say, what is the truth behind that?
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But fermented facts like셰 fullest research.
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in hospitals and putting it in front of patients and that is actually deteriorating the condition.
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But that was a time which showed that what fear and insecurity, when a society is full of fear and insecurity,
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if information is weaponized at that point of time, even if it is not deliberately weaponized,
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even if it is, you know, even if it's people trying to figure out kya karna hai isme,
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then we saw a period which shows that what an information paralysis can do to a system.
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Aur ussi period mein India ka to aur alakh hi chalata hai, rest of the world,
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yeah, rest of the world was also dealing with vaccine hesitancy and all of that.
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We had very little of vaccine hesitancy in India, but we went in a completely different direction
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where we made the whole thing communal with the whole tablighi jamaat thing and all of that.
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So, for me, the past 4-5 years has been an attempt to understand that why is it happening
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because then that is when we start looking at other solutions.
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We know fact checking is important, we know this day-to-day firefighting is important,
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but that is only one of the things that needs to be done to deal with an information ecosystem
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which is increasingly broken, fundamentally broken.
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So then what else needs to be done? That has been, that is what has occupied my mind.
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Since the time we started Alt News in 2017, we were actually excited,
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jaise hi hum articles likh rahe the people who were reacting,
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like people who actually spread misinformation, they used to take it down,
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unko samajhme aara tha nahi, matlab galat hai, morally bhi garat hai.
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It's not that like people are getting caught,
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it's not like because people are calling us out,
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unko bhi lag raha tha ke nahi yeh galat hai, agar fact check ho gaya toh, we'll have to take it down.
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I mean, this happened even from, like bhoj baar BJP, ATSL head ne bhi kiya hai
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aur bhoj saare close to the other parties have done it.
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Jaise hi matlab normalise hota gaya 2017, 2018, 2019 ke baad.
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We actually matlab hum aisa laga ki theek hai, matlab bahot achha kar rahe hain,
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matlab bahot zyada impact ho raha hai.
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Because as soon as you write an article thodi der ke baad,
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either kuch statement aajega, government ke side se ya koi bhi,
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and then they do take it on there, they apologize karenge ki theek hai,
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And 2019 ke baad, matlab, I think in 2017 bahot kum fact checkers the hai us time pe,
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and matlab, I think Boom Live, Alt News and SMHawk Slayer.
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And later on bahot saare fact checkers, like jo media ke hain,
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Times Now, India Today, bahot saare they all got into it.
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And soon after, I think, if I remember in 2019 se hi I would say,
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bahot saare, matlab we used to write fact checks, but people would not take down their posts.
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Kahin pe muntle laga, theek hai, pata chal gaya hai, toh theek hai.
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Matlab unko dimaag mein hai tha ki, theek hai hum politically isko use karna hai.
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Matlab they were like trying to reach out to a certain audience.
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Unko pata hai ya nahi hai, wo alak cheez hai.
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Morally galat hai, matlab galti se kar diya hai, matlab janbos ko kiya hai.
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Matlab pehle hota tha, and they used to delete it.
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Baad mein 2019 ke baad, hum we realised hoa ki log janbos ke ye amplify kar rahe hain.
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And they used to do this regularly, matlab unko kuch political ambitions hote hain,
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ya matlab kuch propaganda karna hai, toh matlab certain goal hota hai ki
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ye amplify karna hai, be it on WhatsApp or multiple other places.
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And that is probably when we, matlab mujhe tab laga ke,
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matlab initially, thode din aisa laga ke,
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hum articles toh lik rahe hain, but it is not reaching masses.
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Wo abhi bhi hai waise, baad mein then I realised ke nahi theek hai,
#
it's not just alt news, matlab hum articles toh lik rahe hain,
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later on like people, they are on other social media platforms,
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mandlo YouTube hai, they pick up our content, usme masses ko reach ho rahe hain.
#
Bhale hi utna impact nahi ho, jatna viral nahi ho, jo fake news jo file hi hai,
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Which is also when I also, matlab we also had this constant discussion ke,
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matlab we write an article, theek hai article lik diya,
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why do you have to go reply to them, ya why do you have to go co-tweet them.
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Toh mera usme maan na tha ke nahi, matlab yeh jaanbhoos ke kar rahe hain,
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matlab yeh misinformation nahi hai, this is disinformation, matlab maan,
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article likne ke baad, even after getting to know what is the fact,
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they are not removing it.
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Toh main, matlab I think that was my way of, matlab countering it,
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saying matlab call them out, be it on, I'm now usually on Twitter,
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toh main I used to call them out, tagging them and replying it to them.
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That way many of my followers get to know ke kya fact hai,
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and also matlab unke followers ko pata chalta hai,
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and that is probably when at times they delete it, at times they don't delete it,
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but at least their followers would know.
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So matlab, haan, yeh ho raha tha, and I mean,
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matlab kahine ka matlab yeh ke pehle yeh tha,
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ke jaisi aap fake news phailaate the,
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misinformation phailaate the, disinformation phailaate the,
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if you get called out, they would remove it.
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Ab itne shameless ho gayi, bhot saare, I would say not all,
#
not all, but jo politically active hain,
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toh wo, they don't mind, for example,
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jaisi inu kaha, B-turn, during 2021-20,
#
jo Covid ke time pe tha, unka dimaag mein ith set tha,
#
ke yeh agenda chalana hai.
#
Makhun matlab, tat-tabliki jamaat ke baare mein likhna hai,
#
matlab thook jihad ke baare mein bolna hai,
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har cheez matlab jo already set tha agenda unka chalana hai.
#
And when we used to call them out,
#
humko galiyaan parthi the ki dekhe kaisi,
#
matlab Islamist hai, kaisi logon ko protect kar rahe hain apne logon,
#
matlab they always, because they already knew,
#
by then mai, I think initially when I started,
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matlab mai, I was anonymous,
#
then Prateek actually asked me to,
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nahi tumko reveal karna hai, you never know,
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baad mein kuch hoga, threds honge,
#
nobody would know you, toh agar,
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if you reveal your name, it's actually, you'll be safer.
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Toh, then later on I changed my name,
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uske baad the problem toh hua, I mean,
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they now got to know my name.
#
And obviously because of the release,
#
not everybody, I would say,
#
people from who supported one particular party
#
or ideology, they would constantly,
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pehle zyada tha ke initially,
#
Prateek ho bahut zyada target katedi,
#
bahut zyada, matlab personally,
#
matlab unki mataji ya father ko leke target karte the,
#
but later on when they got to know
#
about my name, baad mein,
#
I think 2018-19-20 ke baad,
#
they started targeting me, matlab unki paas kuch hai nahi,
#
fake news phala rahe hain, we called them out,
#
and then they take my name,
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ya matlab about my religion,
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ya jo bhi Islamist, jo bhi bolte hain,
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or somehow try to pull me down,
#
but theek hai, because main I have been
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getting such things like from past,
#
in 2014, toh I was used to it,
#
I just ignored their tweet.
#
Maan toh waisa hua hai.
#
The other thing that has changed
#
in the last five years is ki
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mainstream media je itna brazen ho gayi,
#
everything is more brazen,
#
but large sections of mainstream media
#
have even given the pretence
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anywhere close to objective
#
the number of anchors who
#
propagandists in the sense
#
that they are just batting
#
for the government, toh
#
CNN, News 18 main paak she bhar di hai,
#
Times Now the palace hai wo tha,
#
paak she hai, toh sab channel
#
mein aur wo log ko itna prominence
#
the people who own these
#
organizations, they know
#
that they have to pedal the government line
#
and that nothing else matters,
#
that this is a business, media is a business
#
became more apparent in the last
#
five years than ever before.
#
And also like I have interacted with
#
a few local reporters jo
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ground pe cover karte hain, and I
#
ask them like why don't you tweet as much as
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like jis thara se jo anchors karte hain,
#
toh matlab I have spoken to people from
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okay I would not want to name it,
#
but wo bolte hai yaar matlab we have
#
restrictions, our organizations
#
ask us not to, matlab tweet ye
#
baare mein against the government, ya
#
bahot saare directly ya indirectly bhi nahi kar
#
sakte, but then main wahi pucha
#
matlab tumhare anchors toh matlab khulaya
#
matlab ekdum phelate hain,
#
they then, theek hai wo star anchors hain,
#
unko chhut hain, but humare liye.
#
In fact people have been, unko
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job se nikala gaya hai, kyonki unhone
#
kuch tweet kiya hai, ki this is against
#
policy and mujhe yaad hai ki
#
India Today ka ek internal
#
document viral hua tha,
#
which said ki you cannot say all of this,
#
but at the same point in time
#
that does not apply to the
#
star anchors, wo log kuch bhi likh raha hai.
#
mainstream media is so much
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more evident in the last five years.
#
I'll double click a lot more
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on the media as we go along,
#
but before that I have a question
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like what you've been talking about is the supply,
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that okay the supply changed in this way
#
earlier when you would point
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out fake news, people who were
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spreading the fake news would say achha fake hai
#
and they take it down, and today it's much more
#
organized, mainstream media is playing
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stance in spreading misinformation, etc.
#
the demand end of it, like why do people
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consume, I won't use the term fake
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news because even five years back you said don't use
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that term, misinformation is better, why do
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people consume misinformation?
#
mind and I'm thinking aloud,
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ki there are three possible reasons
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and reason, like there are three
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possible phenomena rather, I don't know the reasons,
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maybe you can tell me the reasons.
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Phenomena number one, where the reason
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is also quite clear, is that
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you believe a particular point of view, that this
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is my tribal point of view, this is my party's
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point of view, this is my belief system,
#
and then as confirmation bias I will believe
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anything that supports this view,
#
whether, I don't care whether it is
#
true or not, that's one way
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of looking at it, that's one part of the demand.
#
Another part of the demand is
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tied in with your existing belief system,
#
but once you have taken a particular
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kind of stand, you stick to it like it's a
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religious point, for example you were talking about Covid,
#
in Covid, Ivermectin is
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complete, right? Now Ivermectin
#
is rubbish, it doesn't work, I think it's
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used for horses or whatever,
#
but once people had taken a position
#
it almost became a religious point,
#
a dogmatic point, that we will fight to the death
#
There's actually, there's no logical reason
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for it, there's no, like
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what's their problem? And the
#
is a demand for a kind of sensationalism
#
sake, like I remember when we
#
last recorded, we spoke about
#
all the child kidnapping rumours, and
#
you pointed out that you go
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the details will change, which means there are
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people who are actually changing the details,
#
if you are in Ranchi, then there will be child kidnapping
#
going on in Ranchi, here it's going on,
#
there will be the name of Yagudu Jharkhand,
#
it just keeps morphing, and it is not that
#
somebody has an agenda, you know
#
the why behind that, if I remember
#
and also, like since that time,
#
I have been very confused by
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what happened after Sushant Singh Rajput
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died, because a kind of theories that
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came out, and some of them
#
involve real people and real politicians
#
and all of that, some of them are crazy,
#
like one that I would keep linking to
#
and talking about is, he had
#
apparently, SSR had once posted
#
some tweet about quantum theory
#
where something gets split into two,
#
so there was a conspiracy theory that he got split
#
into two, and the fake Sushant
#
died, and the real Sushant has been
#
imprisoned by Adityanath, because
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he, that is the real Sushant, has found
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and so he is being held
#
hostage, and it was something utterly
#
ridiculous and wild like this,
#
and thousands of retweets, people are
#
consuming it, so this is the third
#
kind of thing, like America maybe they have their version
#
of this pizza parlour being used for pedophilia
#
here I can't understand, ki chal
#
kya raha hai bhai, like why do you want to believe this
#
so, you know that broader
#
question of why do people
#
believe what they believe, why is there a constituency
#
alag alag hai iska, ek to hai
#
differentiate between people who
#
with Zubair was pointing out that they know it is
#
false, and there is a larger and larger
#
constituency of people who know it is false
#
and still choose to keep it
#
actually disinformation producers, many
#
of them are doing it because number one
#
the government indirectly or directly
#
has told them ki you won't be
#
harmed, ki aap kuch bhi daalo social media
#
pe aapko kuch nahi hoga, hum log aapko
#
protect karnenge, hum log ke top most
#
lawyers, aapko supreme court tk defend
#
ek immunity mil gayi hai, so
#
then there are many more people
#
are putting out information which increases
#
their reach, it is clearly
#
a larger and larger social
#
media following, then it takes you to
#
many many places, even army
#
will call you to give lectures, you
#
one is that, that is I am still
#
talking about the supply side because
#
we have to draw a line between
#
what is the supply side and what is the demand
#
side, I am saying that what
#
side is actually the supply side, that
#
the supply side has constant
#
has increased in the last
#
five years, more and more people know
#
that this is false and yet
#
demand side ka alag alag hai,
#
aap Sushant Singh Rajput ka
#
misinformation, jo political misinformation
#
phaila ja raha hai, mujhe nahi lagta hai
#
is waiting to watch a video
#
a Muslim has killed a Hindu
#
man or Hindu has killed a Muslim man, that
#
demand is being created
#
not a demand that is being created, it is
#
of information and you cannot escape
#
certain information. For example,
#
you know, all these algorithms
#
all the algorithms which ensure that
#
we keep viewing the content
#
to view, you know, the echo
#
chambers, so then those
#
fault lines are being used
#
to push certain information
#
that is one phenomenon where
#
it, especially political
#
disinformation, it is not that I am
#
sitting and waiting for political disinformation
#
it is being thrust into my face
#
again and again and the more
#
the more my world view changes
#
or not in not so subtle ways
#
we have seen what has happened in case
#
of bully by Solidis where we have seen
#
that young people during
#
Covid sitting at home have been radicalised
#
the parents are thinking that
#
my child is sitting in the room and reading
#
watching full right wing content and getting radicalised
#
and eventually ends up participating
#
in something which is about
#
auctioning Muslim women online. So
#
so there I do not necessarily
#
think that there is a demand side but
#
Sushant Singh Rajput case I feel is a
#
they connected to an issue
#
the present misinformation
#
in the Arjika rape case
#
it quickly reached into the
#
space of conspiracy theory, very very
#
quickly reached into the space of conspiracy
#
theory because my understanding
#
formed when multiple people are sort of
#
bouncing things off each other and then
#
a theory is formed. If you
#
the typical disinformation then it is
#
bytes of disinformation. It is
#
not necessarily converting
#
itself into theory. Even the theory is
#
being pushed from up to down
#
whether it is love jihad, whether
#
all kinds of UPSC jihad
#
this theory is being pushed from up to down
#
but in Sushant Singh Rajput
#
case people have made their own theory
#
I think the first is that
#
with the issue that oh Sushant Singh
#
Rajput was an outsider from the industry
#
that the industry was not good to him
#
then that extended to the fact
#
that an industry wanted to eliminate
#
him. The first two things
#
and therefore that theory
#
realm altogether because it
#
connected to the day to day lives of
#
them being discriminated against someone
#
else in the workplace or
#
you know boss ka beta or whatever
#
I feel that Sushant Singh Rajput
#
went into a completely different place
#
not that people did not weaponize it. Yes, people
#
weaponized it, knew that it was false
#
said all sorts of things
#
there was a connection to a real issue
#
can be different in different
#
there was a thirst for information
#
we for example alt news website had
#
all websites, all digital websites
#
had highest traffic ratings
#
we have never reached that traffic
#
so we know that people wanted
#
information and there was an information paralysis
#
so then there is a demand
#
side. If we write an article about
#
a celebrity, see the information
#
goes up because people are looking
#
celebrity gossip is what they like
#
an article about a sports
#
celebrity or a Bollywood celebrity
#
we get huge number of hits
#
but at the same point in time we don't
#
get as much hits for political
#
disinformation. So what does it show? The traffic
#
stats itself on our website
#
shows that you know where
#
a demand side is being manufactured
#
and where a demand side exists.
#
speaking about Sushant Singh Rajput
#
whatever is on social media
#
and supply also keeps increasing
#
the mainstream media for doing this
#
it also happened that as we speak
#
a lot of people, they are actually getting
#
benefits. There is misinformation
#
there is disinformation, they know
#
which is why they are not taking it down
#
because they are getting good views
#
and its content is getting amplified
#
everyone has one or two
#
echo chambers and their echo chambers
#
subscribers have to do something
#
even if it is misinformation or fact
#
again it all depends on
#
their subscribers, they have to give that
#
even if it is false they don't care about it
#
they will mix it a little, amplify it
#
bring conspiracy, fake news
#
which is why they are also
#
people who actually consume such
#
have to run their business and they continue doing that
#
the fact that there can be
#
particular kind of news you are actually crowding
#
out space for other kind of news
#
typically for misinformation there is a fertile ground
#
that you have got a very complex scenario
#
the truth is incredibly complex
#
no one can put their finger on it
#
now whenever something is complex the human tendency
#
is you make a simple story and you tell that
#
simple story and that is your story
#
because we want sensationalistic stories
#
stories that bubble to the top
#
now in earlier times what used to happen
#
I will ask you a couple of questions about the media landscape
#
the first is this, in earlier times I remember
#
if you are watching 90s
#
you will have a newspaper
#
like one there is a mainstream
#
and there is nothing besides a mainstream
#
right because the means of production
#
are not available to us yet and I think it is
#
a wonderful thing netnet that the means of production
#
are available to people like us
#
but what was there then, there is a mainstream
#
there is a consensus on the truth
#
and what is happening is when
#
a Times of India is coming out it is
#
having many sections, it has city news
#
so it is not just sensationalistic news
#
that is at the top, they are covering
#
everything and that newspaper is at home
#
and you can go through it and you will come across
#
other things and people can cater to that
#
today what is happening
#
in this sort of environment
#
people are not, I think even those
#
who get physical newspapers I don't know how much they are going
#
through them, most of the consumption is
#
happening online and a lot of it
#
is happening through just clicking on links
#
and through clicking on headlines
#
and their sensationalism wins out
#
so in the attention of the reader
#
it is a sensational stuff which has taken
#
a far bigger space and it becomes
#
and you know the rest of the stuff
#
the subtle stuff gets hidden behind
#
like I have heard mainstream journalists tell me
#
that we used to have these beats, there was a water beat
#
there was a crying beat, all the beats are dying
#
you know journalists who once
#
used to specialize in beats are now forced
#
to become generalists and churn out
#
you know shallow stories at a
#
so what is your sense of the media landscape
#
not just as people who are
#
willy nilly participants in it today
#
like if you just think about how we used to consume
#
we used to consume a very different package earlier
#
from the package that we get now
#
and on the one hand it is
#
wonderful and liberating that I get the
#
kind of content I want and I can
#
create my own content but on
#
the other hand if you look at
#
what is also happening to society as
#
one of the side effects, what is
#
your sense of the media landscape per se?
#
Okay, when broadsheet used to happen
#
you know when everybody was reading
#
kid, okay I would directly
#
go to page 11, page 12, that
#
first you have to watch sports, but
#
when you close the newspaper
#
again after reading 11-12 pages
#
so at least you skim through the headlines
#
right, and then eventually
#
you start reading a little more
#
little more, that is how you end up
#
reading more because you start with something
#
that you are interested in and
#
then you encounter something else
#
know you are interested in and you develop
#
an interest and then you read
#
more, you read more, you read more, so
#
that is what a newspaper
#
used to allow, I don't think digital
#
allows that because digital
#
on, firstly it is an algorithmic
#
you are getting, you are not getting an overall
#
it is not possible that
#
by the way this is also happening, it is not
#
way we are consuming media
#
and I would like to say
#
I think it is very important to talk about
#
this, is that the whole
#
keep saying attention span nahi hai, attention
#
span nahi hai, attention span nahi hai and we
#
keep harping on that and every
#
business model is based
#
what we are trying to say is that we will
#
on the base tendencies of
#
we will convert that into a business
#
model because we don't want to do
#
any work as far as evolution
#
of the humankind is concerned
#
that the humankind should
#
unlog ka attention span itna kam hai
#
aur aap usko negative mein le jaoge, positive
#
mein toh nahi le jaoge, usko
#
aur negative mein le jaoge, so
#
many things, for example click bait
#
the concept of click bait
#
what is a typical click bait
#
some pakistani cricketer, Sai
#
Dhanwar let's say, Harbhajan said this
#
to Sai Dhanwar, click this to know
#
thing, now we are weaponizing
#
because we are inherently curious
#
now we are weaponizing that to make
#
Harbhajan Singh did this to Sai Dhanwar
#
know what they did, so because
#
humans are inherently curious, now that
#
curiosity is not used to do something
#
else, but it is being used to
#
make money, ki koi click karega
#
koi advertisement dekhega
#
abhi click bait saare social
#
media mein hai, I personally
#
media organizations, they
#
ask people to do click bait
#
ki this is the way to get people
#
hum log jo aaj media landscape
#
dekh rahe hai, which is
#
largely a case of what is happening
#
Facebook mein hum log text daal rahe the
#
text aur link nikaali dete
#
sir photo aur video daalte hain
#
that is a business decision, right
#
now on what basis was that business
#
Instagram was bought over by Facebook
#
bought over by Meta at some point in time, but
#
but how do you think that
#
decision was arrived at, that
#
they saw that in existing
#
it is the image, it is the photos and videos
#
maximum virality, so then why even
#
have text, let us remove
#
text altogether and create a new
#
what is happening in our phone industry
#
out of 10 billboards, only
#
talk about what is the one feature
#
that all the billboards talk about
#
most prominently camera, ki
#
aapko wahi bechna hai camera
#
camera, camera ki abhi itna
#
megapixel ho gaya, itna megapixel ho gaya
#
and now this camera has become a very
#
very important part of our
#
information ecosystem, you know
#
we, and that you can see in politics
#
the politics is also becoming
#
increasingly and increasingly narcissist
#
I am saying that, that whatever
#
we look at when we are trying to analyze
#
our information ecosystem
#
we have to touch multiple points
#
about how the industry around
#
it has actually shaped it
#
for it to be the way it is
#
for example when Australian
#
government told Facebook that
#
are not making content and
#
you are getting news content from us
#
and you are making money out of it, you should pay
#
the journalist because you are making tons
#
of money so there has to be
#
some money that goes back to the journalist
#
and Facebook said that nothing doing and
#
we will stop showing news in Australia
#
they did the same with Canada, so
#
now we are saying that here
#
are organizations like Facebook
#
Twitter being bought by Elon Musk
#
monopolies to be created who
#
our information ecosystem
#
and the economics of the world
#
allow monopolies to exist
#
because monopolies are existing that
#
you cannot think about a
#
world beyond Amazon, you cannot think about a world
#
beyond Facebook, Instagram, you cannot even
#
email was, used to be such a beautiful
#
decentralized communication
#
and the beauty of it was decentralized
#
abhi sab kuch Gmail me ho gaya hai
#
Google workspace use karyo
#
the economics of the world has
#
and now they are taking
#
decisions as to what our information
#
ecosystem should look like, so
#
there are so many factors
#
which are affecting, I am saying that
#
Facebook, Instagram, etc
#
is affecting how our news
#
is being produced, that is what I am trying to say
#
if they want to make money
#
digital space, they have to put
#
out information every half
#
Facebook se logon hain bola hai ki
#
yaar aap log din ka ek article kyaon
#
banaate hain, aap ka content itna achcha hai
#
aap khar aade gante post kiji hai
#
content achcha hai kyunki hum log
#
khar aade gante nahi post kar rahe hain
#
isliye content achcha hai
#
so there is a pressure from
#
that side, from the platform
#
we need users on our platform because
#
that is how we make money
#
and the only way users can
#
platform that people who are associated
#
with the platform make infinite
#
amount of money and now because
#
these are monopolies, these are the ones
#
post dot wants to reach its
#
reader, they can only reach them
#
through Google and Facebook
#
there is no other way, there are literally
#
two companies in this world deciding
#
almost, I mean it has almost become like that
#
and they can make the rules
#
so they are saying that the only way
#
we can make money is that if
#
our readers are constantly there on our
#
platform so you keep putting
#
content every 15 minutes
#
now what is the content that you are going to
#
create in every 15 minutes, they are going to
#
they are going to focus on the most lousy
#
and our journalism is also
#
are like, oh this is viral on social
#
media, let's put an article, take
#
five tweets together, let's put an article
#
that is journalism, some stupid reaction
#
one person said, told another
#
person, that this happened
#
now you see the language too, what is happening
#
clickbait has happened, but now language
#
you know the phrases that we
#
one person responding to another person
#
the kind of violence that we
#
use in the language and in our headlines
#
that is crazy because then
#
when you start competing
#
everyone is putting in 15 minutes
#
we will compete that what is the language
#
if one person is going softer let's go
#
more aggressive, let's go more aggressive
#
competition to the bottom essentially
#
I'll just think aloud and share some thoughts
#
because I've been like sort of
#
talking about this and thinking about this
#
for a while and give me your reactions
#
the thing is it's by now
#
social media did was when they were trying
#
to pump up engagement, they
#
the worst aspects of our nature, to our worst
#
instincts, so the Facebook like button
#
the Twitter retweet, because of that
#
that caters to our tribal instincts
#
our desire for validation etc etc
#
and it is a loop and everything goes to hell
#
and it also in a sense caters
#
to the short attention span
#
it does that, having said that
#
and I've always wondered
#
that what would it mean to cater
#
to the better angels of our natures as it were
#
because we are a mixed bag
#
of instincts, some of them like tribalism
#
for validation, the performative behavior
#
that arises are the worst ones
#
and you know these particular features
#
by these sites which they did
#
for increasing engagement
#
accidentally ended up amplifying them
#
so one thing I wonder about as a question
#
is and not just a rhetorical
#
one, I'm sure you've thought about this as well
#
platforms do to sort of
#
play on the better angels
#
of our natures and downplay these
#
and the second angle I have to this
#
there is only one way for them to
#
get to profitability, in the sense
#
to this sort of short term attention span
#
click bait, you get shallow engagement
#
you don't get deep engagement, the reader
#
doesn't really care, the reader is not
#
in fact going to give you money, you know
#
we are still in the old model that you monetize
#
that you aggregate eyeballs and then
#
you monetize it and you go to an advertiser
#
and I feel that model is eventually going to
#
but I think there is another game
#
like something that what you said, that the reason
#
that you are so good is you are
#
releasing news every half hour
#
I have found that attention spans
#
being short is completely wrong, you know people are
#
listening to 7 hour, 8 hour podcasts and
#
the absolute numbers there
#
are lower than what a click baity
#
outlet might get, but the depth
#
of engagement, the feeling is much more
#
and I'm sure it is the same with you that you
#
are also loved by a few and that's more important
#
than being liked by many, though in your case I would say
#
you are loved by many also in terms of
#
and I wonder thinking optimistically
#
that maybe we are going through this curve
#
where we are at a point in time
#
where eventually the social media sites
#
will discover that there is another
#
deeper way to profitability and this is
#
not the only way that you do a
#
race to the bottom and the other way
#
I think about this is that at one
#
level you are right, there are seeming monopolies
#
like what do you do, Facebook is Facebook, Twitter is Twitter etc etc
#
they are all competing for the same thing which is
#
our attention, so in that sense
#
they are not a monopoly and in that sense
#
there is still hope that as
#
you will have different competitors for your
#
time and you will find some of them
#
perhaps more attractive, obviously the
#
problem is these social media sites are also
#
very addictive and so on and so forth
#
so my sort of the dual question
#
do you think it is possible
#
to design a social media site
#
that is successful but that does not
#
play on the short term shallow
#
optimizes for engagement
#
for deeper engagement rather
#
and if so how would you design
#
it and do you find from your
#
interactions with tech companies that
#
people think about that seriously within
#
think of the times of Orkut
#
what did we use Orkut for
#
we used Orkut to connect to our
#
long lost friends all of that
#
when social media first came why it
#
became popular was that reason
#
because it was a site for internet
#
working, it is no longer
#
a site for internet networking, I
#
of no interest on my feed
#
seen any evidence of them changing
#
in the last seven years, they have only
#
made things worse and worse
#
myopic view of the world because
#
the problem with monopolies
#
that Zuckerberg sitting in San
#
what information policy
#
the world will be, I will give you an example
#
I may have spoken about it in
#
the previous podcast also but
#
Zuckerberg came on NBC once and said
#
and this was just before elections
#
and the question was posed
#
to him that why do you not fact check
#
politicians and he said that
#
politicians are already overly
#
scrutinized by the mainstream media and
#
hence politicians need not be
#
fact checked, this is an on the record
#
statement and we have written an article
#
there is an article on old news website
#
which talks about Facebook's
#
myopic policies vis-a-vis fact checking
#
this man sitting in San Francisco
#
thinks that politicians are
#
overly scrutinized, now what does
#
it say, it says that his understanding
#
of politics is from his immediate
#
surrounding and that he has
#
absolutely no clue what happens
#
has to be context based
#
people who design our systems
#
people who design our policy should have context
#
why we struggle with hate
#
because someone, because
#
you can call someone with
#
you know you can say something which
#
will never sound like hate speech
#
to an algorithm but is actually a
#
hate speech so then how do you create
#
algorithms which detect
#
so I am saying that what
#
information we consume is
#
also a matter of policy
#
and when you have such large organizations
#
with policies which are global
#
so which is why our information
#
our platforms need to be broken down
#
we have to have a decentralized
#
places where we consume information
#
on the policy of the platform
#
at this point of time we have no
#
say on the policy and if
#
we have no say on the policy then
#
someone else will continue taking
#
making decisions which will
#
things worse for us so while
#
while you are pointing out that yes
#
they are you know they are
#
I feel that the that is not
#
just that is not the only issue
#
has its own sensitivities
#
that when I have gone to some
#
international forums that medical
#
service information is a bigger thing in Southeast Asia
#
not gone through India Pakistan
#
they do not have that enmity
#
in for example let us say if you go
#
to Vietnam or if you go to
#
Indonesia is probably not the best example
#
but maybe Vietnam I have lived three years in Vietnam
#
and I do not see those kind of sensitivities
#
India Pakistan and that
#
has constantly be weaponized every
#
single day every political party
#
some political parties more than others
#
to influence our information ecosystem
#
to define our world view
#
now if someone does not have
#
is building policies and policy
#
means hate speech policy misinformation policy
#
everything what to take down what not
#
to take down what can cause riots
#
do not have an understanding of that
#
then it will never work so
#
why did an exodus happen in
#
monk in Cambodia have to
#
from Hyderabad continue to
#
Facebook whereas some people who are
#
putting out such rabid hate speech
#
saying when people are asking
#
these questions when I ask myself
#
these questions that why did it happen
#
those who are decision makers
#
they are so far from Myanmar
#
it does not when something is
#
happening in Manipur then
#
even then it does not matter
#
we are sitting here in Delhi-Bombay
#
it is not like we are burning
#
it was our outrage for some time
#
by the information ecosystem
#
over their information ecosystem
#
so I am saying that you
#
India will also have a singular
#
information ecosystem if someone
#
is sitting in Tamil Nadu and controlling
#
what is the sensitivity of Manipur
#
and what is the sensitivity of Kashmir
#
so here we are talking about platforms which are
#
purely American platforms each one of these
#
platforms are American platforms
#
and they are controlling the information
#
ecosystem of the world without having
#
what is happening around the world
#
what can one small piece of
#
information what can it do to countries
#
and how because they are
#
emotionally connected I feel that it is very
#
is also an emotional thing
#
is also an emotional thing because
#
we are connected to the
#
what is happening in India what happens in India
#
so then we are doing this
#
I am not going and fact checking what is happening
#
in not even in Pakistan
#
I mean sometimes we do because
#
indirectly it affects India but generally
#
we are not fact checking what is happening even in
#
in our immediate countries we are fact checking
#
only what is happening in India and we are not even
#
we are not interested because
#
it is an emotional thing so
#
platforms if they are sitting
#
and now that we know how
#
intricately information
#
is affecting our day to day
#
lives they are not concerned
#
with our day to day lives so if they are controlling
#
information they don't know how to make
#
policies and even if they make policies
#
they are not invested in what is happening
#
therefore they will always overlook
#
issues which are happening in these
#
have a separate for example
#
because there is a monopoly
#
Facebook, Twitter, anything like what about
#
I think my question also was what would a perfect
#
right now the design is
#
just pump up engagement at any cost
#
so show only pictures you have the like button matters
#
the retweet matters etc etc
#
is there a different kind of design for example
#
people will often say that reddit pay
#
there is less toxicity than
#
and obviously a large part
#
of that is just to do with the design
#
and reddit is also very successful
#
because reddit is about conversations
#
for example even twitter
#
even though very very toxic
#
a social media platform over
#
facebook and instagram because these
#
these are not about conversations
#
the design what is the design of facebook
#
is that comments are not
#
that important right when the UI design
#
is that the comments are not that important
#
and same is in instagram
#
so then it is not about conversations
#
it is about broadcasting and
#
so that is where I am saying that
#
and now we feel the constant need
#
this need has been cultivated
#
we did not have this need
#
a few years ago that we
#
constantly needed to broadcast as
#
society world over which is more narcissistic
#
so from there you cannot think about
#
what should be the design the design
#
has to be which is why I
#
try to take the conversation back to Orkut
#
is that originally the point of
#
view of social media was conversations
#
between individuals where you discover
#
people where you discover like-minded people
#
before that before social media
#
and then we go and read different
#
blogspot.com was such a
#
popular thing where people are writing their views
#
that was the first level
#
of democratization blogs was the
#
you know between social media and
#
newspaper age we had the
#
blogging age it was the first
#
people could write their views
#
sue someone who wrote a
#
blog you know which was critical of
#
some of the coverage and suddenly
#
they are like oh we are not the only ones who are controlling
#
the information ecosystem someone can
#
can be shattered and then immediately
#
they try to I don't know if you
#
recall this incident I think the blogger
#
was Chaitanya Kunti and this was something
#
to do with Barkha that's covered it somewhere
#
I remember that vividly I was an active blogger
#
in those days yeah so that
#
was the first time when
#
democratization happened in terms
#
was the original form where
#
exchange ideas and forums
#
and where the alignment
#
was along interest thoughts etc
#
it was happening and so
#
to communicate these two social media
#
and still those two need primarily
#
doesn't enable it so I am saying
#
have to see what was the trend
#
in the technology sphere
#
so there was blogging and there was forums
#
and that clearly showed that this is
#
what we wanted to do that is we
#
we wanted platforms where we can state
#
our own thoughts and we wanted
#
take that too and create products
#
which focus on that too
#
you figure out other ways of profitability
#
that the fundamental issue
#
that they took these two things
#
and then they are like oh we are going to profit
#
from these very processes
#
and I think that is where
#
around these two issues
#
we just spoke about reddit and also podcast
#
together listening to different views
#
that would probably be a very lesser
#
more than 90% of the people
#
want to just watch videos
#
they are all interested in watching
#
videos and not even listening
#
either watching videos or whatever they want to do
#
which is also one of the reasons why
#
this could be vice-versa
#
it was because of Facebook and
#
Instagram which started feeding them
#
which is why they are no more interested
#
and not even that before
#
they used to watch videos for 10-15 minutes
#
now it's like just shorts
#
one video for 10-15 seconds
#
remember what they have watched
#
because while scrolling
#
you end up on one video
#
sorry on one video you end up
#
on 10th shot you end up with totally different
#
topic but it's just that people
#
are so used to hook to their phones
#
they just want to watch
#
out of the 10 videos they would not even remember
#
say 7-8 videos what they watch
#
content of the video or communalization
#
it is just that people are
#
so used to it and which is probably why the
#
platforms are making money and which is why probably
#
the content creators are making so
#
what used to happen before
#
now what they have been doing
#
we will keep a 30 minute video and then
#
short videos of 10-15 seconds
#
because people have started liking it
#
and also platforms have started promoting
#
going forward because there is so much
#
money in it both for the content creators
#
as well as for the platforms
#
we are at least changing such
#
realization that it is getting too toxic
#
I mean the Bangladesh government
#
it can't be of course one can't say
#
one has to create alternatives
#
and there is work being done on
#
some alternatives which are nowhere
#
close see the problem with monopolies is
#
also that if you are using
#
Google Docs why does it feel like
#
you are on your own system
#
because they have so many servers they have put so much
#
so now everybody is on Google Docs
#
and it is not encrypted
#
can share some of that data
#
there was something that was said about
#
Google Docs so all our documents
#
on Google Docs it is not
#
encrypted but because it has
#
because they have the money they can have
#
neighborhood like there is so many servers
#
so it feels like you are operating
#
word processor it feels like that
#
convenience that wherever you go
#
it will be accessible to you
#
sort of thinking about the
#
issue of decentralization
#
two years how for example
#
our governance you know why
#
does it still work even
#
government whatever is happening in state
#
fundamentally our government systems
#
are designed to be decentralized
#
whether it is panchayati raj
#
rights and recently I was reading
#
decisions legal decisions
#
otherwise in cities would go to court
#
they were being made in panchayats
#
decentralization is something
#
again and again in our governance
#
in our life that it is such
#
made which is decentralized
#
software called peer tube
#
you will see one anti-vaccine
#
video, now they have changed it
#
when you will see one anti-vaccine video
#
then you will see another
#
by the time you are out of that cycle
#
you are against vaccination
#
that is what happened because of the recommendation
#
now we are talking about
#
so for example there is this
#
software called peer tube
#
youtube feels like you are watching
#
a video on your own system
#
now how do you match that kind of performance
#
so then what peer tube does is
#
people use peer tube then
#
there is local buffering
#
so let's say if I am watching a video and if the guy
#
apartment complex we are sitting in
#
let's say 5 other people are watching that video
#
and those packets are available
#
nearby and that way you get
#
performance which is equivalent
#
whenever we talk about alternatives we will be like
#
this is slow, this is not good
#
I feel that they will be solved
#
that we will have decentralized systems
#
which will have performance and
#
what we have in case of
#
and that is when people will start
#
making a shift, you need
#
good alternatives, you need convincing alternatives
#
google docs, so for example dropbox
#
dropbox came and became a
#
we use something called nextcloud
#
corporate communication mechanism we use something
#
it is a conscious choice
#
to use software systems
#
the only thing that we are using
#
corporate at this point of time is
#
google ka email otherwise not
#
a single software system that
#
we use we don't use zoom we use something called
#
big blue button so we have made
#
a conscious choice of not
#
using these software systems and
#
they will not work as well as
#
this but this is a choice
#
made because when you use you
#
criticise you give feedback
#
inconvenient about using
#
is a more ethical system
#
of developing they will be more inconvenient
#
to use but the tendency
#
ki acha it is inconvenient let's
#
let's go back to the default which
#
is a convenient solution
#
given by monopoly which is highly toxic
#
we have to erase that tendency
#
ho gaha thira thira and
#
my belief is that there
#
will be systems which will
#
be decentralised in nature which will
#
rival the monopolies that
#
want to double click on that decentralisation
#
aspect like firstly as far as
#
our own government is concerned I think our system
#
it should it pays lip service to
#
federalism and decentralisation but it is
#
level you can understand the reason for that that
#
when the constitution was drafted the country was
#
falling apart the country didn't even exist in the
#
form it does now so you
#
if you are sitting in Delhi and drafting the constitution
#
with riots across the country no
#
sense if the centre may hold there is a tendency
#
to centralise power the second reason
#
for the centralisation was a distrust
#
for good reason like Ambedkar correctly said
#
what is a village but a sink of
#
localism a den of ignorance and narrow mindedness
#
India's problems the worry
#
was that casteism misogyny
#
all of them if you empower local
#
government too much they will become a problem
#
and this has been a sort of
#
a constant dilemma we need
#
to be much more decentralised
#
I've had an episode on this of everything is
#
everything which I'll link from the show notes but
#
I want to get back to that brilliant point
#
you made about companies
#
being decentralised like if you
#
think about it the big multinationals
#
when it comes to products are incredibly
#
decentralised like I think Japan
#
has 30 kinds of Kit Kat you know if
#
you look at Kit Kat flavours around the world everything is different
#
you look at Maggi flavours around the world
#
everything is like I don't like the matcha flavour at all
#
so everywhere is different
#
here it's not different in the sense
#
like you pointed out that it's that
#
same algorithm that oh we don't need to
#
fact check politicians because you know the example
#
that you gave which is a brilliant example
#
here it's not different and I'm thinking
#
about that Kit Kat is different
#
because it hits a bottom line
#
it's visible that how much is being sold
#
you do your A B testing and you have the flavours
#
that work here unfortunately
#
this race to the bottom is sold
#
so that is kind of what you have
#
what are the possible solutions
#
like one thing that I'm extremely wary of
#
is when people say the state is a solution
#
if you empower the state
#
all of these as a means
#
of oppression and that is something
#
we should be wary of when you
#
talk of the state regulating social media
#
the state will regulate for example in India
#
the state would regulate social media to shut down
#
dissent and you absolutely don't
#
want that so then the question arises
#
like my sense here is that
#
this is a social problem and it has to be
#
solved from within civil society
#
however the way the incentives
#
are that simply isn't happening now one
#
argument you could pose is that
#
ok the mainstream is what the mainstream is
#
small players like you guys
#
you know we do what we can on the side
#
but even that is not effective
#
beyond the point because what you earlier said
#
that you see one anti-vaxxer video
#
then the algo takes over and you're an anti-vaxxer
#
I've been thinking about this for a long time
#
that imagine in 2015 you're a 15 year old
#
you've got a smartphone
#
somebody sends you a video which is one of these
#
right wing propaganda videos
#
aapne wo video dekhliya baaki saara
#
apka feed waise video aayenge you're saying now
#
YouTube has changed it a bit but baaki
#
saare waise aayenge and then that is
#
your whole world then you will naturally
#
think ki haan you know these people
#
are evil you know seen unseen is evil
#
all news is evil Zubair is evil so
#
and I don't think you can fight that by
#
you know doing something on the side
#
it's a really fundamental problem
#
so I'm just curious about what is
#
the solution space for this because I'm very
#
wary of somehow people saying ki
#
let's solve it via the state
#
I think the heavy hand of the state can potentially
#
make things much worse and shut down dissent
#
how did the state come into this?
#
aapne nahi bola aapne nahi bola I'm talking about generally
#
what people say a lot of people will say ki regulation
#
karo inka aisa karo aisa karo
#
I'm just trying to think about where solution evolves
#
from because typically in a competitive marketplace
#
the incentives of a competitive
#
marketplace means that solutions will evolve
#
here that is not happening because
#
you know for reasons we've discussed
#
you know the people keep saying that
#
no no the state should regulate without thinking ki state
#
kaun hai bhai you know so
#
what is your sense of where the solution
#
space is like in all of these years
#
like people will also tell me
#
from within tech companies that hey we are trying
#
to change things Facebook wale
#
bolenge ki whatsapp pe if you forward a message
#
too many times wahan pe likha hota I forwarded many
#
times and there's a limit of one
#
message how much you can do etc etc
#
twitter pe abhi community notes aane lage hai
#
etc etc you know so they will
#
say ki the tech companies mean well
#
what is your experience of this and
#
according to you guys from what you
#
have seen ki solution space kahan hai
#
main ye nahi bolunga jo kaam ho raha hai
#
wo on the side hai mere hisaab se
#
kaam on the side hi shuru hota hai
#
agar kuch mainstream ho
#
to kaam on the side hi shuru hota hai
#
this is my present understanding of course
#
you know my understanding has evolved
#
over the past 4-5 years
#
spend a lot of time thinking about
#
decentralization and you rightly pointed out that
#
we do lip service to federalism but at the same
#
point of time there is some decentralization
#
it is we are you know there is some amount
#
of decentralization and we see the benefits
#
I am you know I am increasingly
#
observing systems around
#
which have certain benefits where
#
we have seen you know for example
#
demonetization where all
#
you know it was 3 people making
#
to the country similarly I am
#
so then what are we talking about
#
then we are talking about laws which don't allow you to
#
do that many people have
#
said that oh there should you know
#
a country in a country 3 people
#
we have to recognize that
#
and when we recognize that then
#
when you are talking about KitKat
#
it doesn't matter whether
#
what flavor of KitKat you have
#
is not going to cause riots
#
matter in fact even in that
#
space I recently read an article about how
#
countries many of these products are putting in
#
more sugar I don't know if you came
#
across that article or not
#
I think I vaguely did which I feel at this point
#
in time given what we know is simply evil
#
so that you know what people
#
like and you just cater to that
#
is you know it is something
#
are doing but the point is key
#
you know we have observed
#
that few people making decisions
#
in a large scale system
#
so and the only way that
#
breaking down those systems
#
if you allow those systems to exist
#
and you think that oh those systems
#
start making decisions good decisions
#
for others it will never happen
#
it doesn't happen in any large scale system
#
if you give the rights of decision
#
making in a large scale system to a few
#
understanding and therefore these
#
large scale systems have to be broken
#
down now how we will arrive that
#
it is going to be a journey
#
you know for example from where I am
#
which is why I keep thinking
#
about technology I you know the
#
fact that we are using certain
#
technology within all news is because
#
you know it is not equivalent to zoom
#
but we still use those because
#
because my understanding
#
is that these systems have to be broken down
#
solutions come you state
#
a problem in life you solve that problem
#
you solve that problem another problem
#
comes you solve that problem another problem comes
#
the point is to define the problem
#
you start solving it and then eventually
#
do not know like what will that solution
#
look like but I definitely
#
know in my head what the problem is
#
and what is the first step
#
to deal with that problem
#
the first step is to create decentralized
#
solutions they will not
#
be equivalent to that then
#
the next step is to improve that improve that
#
give you another example
#
why do we depend on all news donations
#
yesterday we were talking
#
about this in Kunal's podcast
#
Kunal was saying that it is not a business
#
model I said no it is a business model
#
and why is it a business model
#
was a decision taken that we will be a
#
non-profit and that we will depend
#
on donations because who
#
else is paying for fact checking
#
facebook etc you know that
#
ecosystem actually ecosystem
#
but the platforms are paying for
#
it is not okay to take money
#
I believe it is not okay to take money from
#
platforms of fact checking because
#
if there is a murder scene if disinformation
#
producers are one part of the
#
accused then the platforms are the part and you
#
imagine one accused giving money to
#
the court saying that you go and investigate the other
#
accused I do not think that is okay
#
red line that this is not okay
#
beyond this red line so then we
#
have defined a problem that our
#
we have to figure out money
#
from places which does not
#
this conflict of interest cannot be there
#
so then there are two ways for us to be
#
independent there can be subscription
#
or there can be donations
#
subscription inherently
#
means that there is something which
#
you are giving to your subscribers which is exclusive
#
and the thought is that fact
#
checking the information that we produce
#
larger public interest it
#
cannot be behind a paywall no
#
information that alt news
#
produces as an organization
#
can be behind a paywall so
#
therefore we cannot have subscription
#
so then the only way that is
#
remaining is to donations that is
#
who can afford to pay will pay
#
so that is how decision making happens
#
right you define the problem and
#
then you eliminate what
#
is not possible and then you come to a
#
I am saying that that process of
#
decision making that define
#
the problem what is the problem right now that
#
we have a large scale system where
#
where the people who are decision makers
#
decisions and this is not going to change
#
because the design of the system itself is faulty
#
so you have to take down the system
#
and build another system
#
and then how that will come about is
#
that is the only possibility
#
realize that and work on that
#
will be stuck with this large scale system
#
oh it will one day work for you but it will
#
I mean my question was really about you know
#
the how of the breaking it down
#
I completely agree it has to be broken down because
#
like currently our constitution
#
protects the state from the people and not
#
the other way around it should protect the people from
#
the state but you know so and
#
even in the case of companies
#
the question is sort of how
#
I will come back to it later I will also come back
#
to like 50 things I want to double click on about
#
old news about the landscape later
#
me to get to know Zubair a little bit
#
because you know Prateek and I have spoken
#
a lot about you know his background in the last episode
#
and I still want to go back to that and
#
talk about some aspects of it
#
you tell me like where were you born
#
what was your childhood like give me a
#
I was born in Bangalore and
#
my mom is from Bangalore and my father
#
is from a nearby village which
#
no no I was born in Bangalore
#
Prateek what is this you have been busted
#
is like from close from a village
#
close to Hosur which is in Tamil Nadu
#
so soon after I was born
#
like because my dad is from
#
a village from Hosur we
#
stayed there for say till
#
standard and I used to travel along
#
with my sister to Hosur which is
#
like say 30 kilometers up and
#
30 kilometers down in Gaugam public
#
transport from standard
#
we are 5 and I was the eldest
#
of the education system there which was not good
#
and also because of the travel time my mom
#
was like adamant we will have to shift to Bangalore
#
for some reason that did not
#
happen for quite a long
#
time because I mean there were
#
to move out from that village
#
and like we had to fight as in my mom had to
#
fight no I have to go she did not
#
have the reason why she had to go but she
#
didn't want to be there because of the education
#
but she could not say it then
#
because there was no environment there
#
anybody passing clearing 10th
#
she did not have any reason but after I
#
cleared my 5th standard
#
she was adamant no we have to go
#
shifted to Bangalore and
#
then my dad was in that
#
him for say a year or so one or two
#
years and then we shifted and then
#
this was that I was very weak in studies
#
very very weak in studies so
#
I had taken up ICSE when
#
we shifted to Bangalore
#
school and there I had taken ICSE syllabus
#
apart from that all subjects failed
#
that was the only subject I used to clear
#
which was I used to get
#
in 6th standard I failed and then
#
me and my sister were in the same class
#
then she was like very good student
#
she was a brilliant student
#
and because I was an elder
#
clear from 6th standard to 7th standard
#
and then my mom and dad
#
used to go and request that she is a small girl
#
and she is older than her
#
she is 7th so it won't be good
#
if she stays in 7th or 6th
#
convince her that no this time
#
we will make sure that she will do it
#
by doing this and that I reached 9th standard
#
sometimes one or two subjects used to pass
#
and then in 10th standard
#
it was clear that I will
#
but then my mom was like no you
#
somehow I wasn't convinced
#
except for my mom everybody had given up
#
no one can cut in our class
#
so you are the only one
#
because everybody was ok
#
they had given me in writing
#
father took me to the upstairs
#
my mom was very emotional
#
because of you we are from the village
#
even after listening so much
#
I had faith in you that you will study
#
he was a little emotional
#
father took me upstairs and said
#
he was a little emotional
#
this happened in the family
#
we came here with your support
#
so it was a very emotional moment
#
that is probably when I
#
tuition was already high
#
then I took some interest
#
that was the first time
#
preparatory exams were there
#
cleared in all the subjects
#
they had given up anyways
#
and then in maths I got some 93
#
teachers who were watching
#
they had actually given me in writing
#
who made the teachers laugh
#
those activities were good
#
I used to pull their legs
#
but they were very active
#
because I did not study well
#
they used to scold me emotionally
#
everybody was so excited
#
for 1st, 2nd and 3rd year students
#
father was like no you got 93 in maths
#
I will go there and get admission
#
I will not get admission there
#
I know where I will not get admission
#
but I was very happy though
#
but I will not get admission in MES
#
father did not go and ask for admission
#
he went to the principal
#
you know that you have cut off 95
#
but my child's capability
#
because he cleared within 2 months
#
he tried to convince her
#
I have to convince my father
#
my younger siblings were also very good
#
and then I cleared my P.U.
#
I did not know what to do
#
medical was not in my mind
#
when I had to take CET entrance
#
there were a lot of options
#
which stream I had to go
#
still I did not even know
#
just because one of my friend took
#
I wanted to take up electronics
#
and I wanted to go to college
#
which is nearby to my house
#
this is how my engineering was
#
and then I got a job in 2005
#
I worked in Cisco for 2 years
#
I wanted to come back to Bangalore
#
I was a little depressed
#
for some personal reasons
#
I wanted to spend more time on
#
I used to spend a lot of time on social media
#
at that time there was Anna movement
#
and then we were very active
#
initially I was running
#
at that time I was more interested
#
I started following Facebook pages
#
about protests and current affairs
#
I used to comment there
#
there were a lot of people who liked it
#
there were sarcastic comments
#
and he is commenting like this
#
they did not expect that from me
#
are now extreme right wing
#
at that time there was Bhaxala
#
there were a few more pages
#
they were friends with me then
#
there were some changes
#
and then in 2013 I got married
#
Modi became Prime Minister
#
so those Facebook pages
#
the people who were always
#
against the government policies
#
the same page admin used to
#
defend whatever was done later on after 2014
#
I could not say it directly
#
because at that time Durbin was a friend
#
I could not say it directly
#
I think 2-3 months had passed
#
because I had invested a lot of time
#
on these Facebook pages
#
so I started my own page
#
I made a parody page, satirical page
#
as an anonymous account
#
in 2014 I became politically active
#
I used to follow a lot of politicians
#
so Mr. Subramanian Swami
#
I am not sure he is still in
#
so at that time I was very active
#
at that time there were only 2 politicians
#
Shivarur and Subramanian Swami
#
who had lots of followers then
#
I am sorry, Sashitharur
#
why did you bring me here
#
and they had lots of followers
#
so I used to follow them
#
but their views were very strange
#
there were people who were
#
who said that they are fans of Subramanian Swami
#
so I used to follow them
#
they try to link anything
#
so I used to find their views strange
#
I started a parody page in 2014
#
called it Subramanian Swami
#
there was Subramanian Swami N
#
and my name was Subramaniam Swami
#
so people were confused
#
because Facebook page's name was Subramanian Swami
#
I used to post a little sarcastic
#
lot of people got confused
#
and few of our friends got to know
#
who were not used to sarcasm
#
and they used to go complain to Subramanian Swami
#
your views are very different on twitter
#
and here you have different views
#
so they responded to 2-3 people
#
and I was very frustrated
#
because no one was complaining
#
but that was not my page
#
that if Facebook doesn't take down his page
#
I am going to sue Facebook
#
Facebook actually took down
#
Subramaniam Swami's page
#
so that is when people got
#
it was a very small page
#
as in 550,000 followers
#
thanks to Subramaniam Swami
#
I had never interacted with him
#
I used to follow Pratik's page
#
I love the live fact checking you are doing Pratik
#
not after Modi came to power
#
I was following his page
#
I used to post 30-40 a day
#
I think I had that much time
#
you took my content without giving me credits
#
I immediately responded to Pratik
#
I think it was through Root of Gujarat
#
that he took my content
#
someone cut your credit
#
that is when we started interacting
#
because I was working in Nokia
#
to a lot of cities and other countries
#
I used to visit regularly
#
and then he got to know
#
and then I was very impressed
#
because I knew his father and mother
#
were very active in politics
#
so I was very interested
#
whatever she had to say
#
we had a good following
#
since then we were also fact checking
#
sometimes we were fact checking
#
Pratik was the one who started off
#
calling out hypocrisy of people
#
there were a lot of abusive handles
#
who used to follow Prime Minister Modi
#
Pratik used to call them out
#
he used to call them out
#
he was followed by Modi
#
she took Pratik Sinha's
#
or abusive handles who were followed by prominent people
#
there were many organizations
#
they decided to walk to Una
#
nobody had actually covered that
#
there were many organizations
#
but it was not covered by the mainstream media
#
except for one Hindustan Times
#
I was not on Twitter by then
#
some mainstream media started
#
covering that if I remember
#
they used to send me to share
#
so I used to do it from
#
the followers have increased
#
but the information whatever we are posting
#
or whatever fact checking we are doing
#
it is not reaching more and more people
#
so Pratik also suggested
#
initially we did not know that we would be
#
fake news bursting website
#
there were a lot of people
#
who were giving opinions
#
but they also have limited D.A.
#
their followers or close friends
#
it should reach out to larger people
#
and then we started posting there
#
people complained that we took the content
#
and then you did not even take
#
the issue was not attribution
#
so just before alt news
#
we briefly tried working
#
on another website which was
#
amplify people's opinions
#
a bunch of opinions and then
#
because Facebook license
#
allowed taking of posts
#
and then attributing them
#
the attributes were done
#
okay with that for example
#
there was an IAS officer from Kashmir
#
he was like you are putting me into trouble
#
this is meant for my Facebook audience
#
and now this is reaching a wider
#
world so can you take it down
#
so then we had to take that down
#
another person reached out
#
they were okay with their opinions
#
opinions they were okay with it
#
reaching their audience but not beyond that
#
the underpinning of the
#
underpinning of the whole website the idea itself
#
so when I was walking in Una
#
I think around the fifth day we were in a place called
#
Bota then that is when in
#
my mind I was like okay I am done
#
doing full time software
#
engineering I want to do something else
#
and then I came back and he
#
happened to be in Ahmedabad
#
soon after Una and that is when I told him
#
let us create a website
#
where we do whatever we are doing
#
in an organized manner so we wrote
#
point one of the concept note was
#
bust misinformation point two
#
of the concept note was
#
protesting the realization after
#
walking for 10 days in Una is that
#
it is not that people are not protesting
#
it is that nobody is covering them
#
so these were the two ideas
#
it was a bigger concept note
#
eventually what happened
#
have to be in every state
#
have to know that language so for that
#
capital investment was needed which we
#
did not have so then we stuck
#
to debunking misinformation
#
so Zubair I want to double click
#
on a couple of things like
#
one thing that strikes me is
#
how important is the circumstance
#
in giving that direction like first of all
#
your mom convincing the family
#
to come to Bangalore itself is a very
#
big deal you know second I am
#
you know that what you were saying
#
your father took you upstairs and he told you
#
the results of 10th standard is so important
#
and I am wondering what role that played
#
in your maybe discovering a part of
#
yourself that if I want I can do it
#
so I have this ability and then of course
#
you also changed in terms of political
#
awakening and even smaller
#
circumstances like your meeting Pratik itself
#
would have been you know a huge milestone
#
in the journey and I am
#
curious in knowing two things
#
one is to what extent the circumstances
#
shaped you and the other is
#
that without these circumstances
#
like I have a feeling that core to
#
you would be for example the Shari would be core to you
#
you know the love of art and literature must
#
tell me about all of that like assume
#
what would you be that you still are that is
#
like fundamental to you and not dependent
#
on circumstance maybe if you are living
#
in a different political age
#
here because from the outside when people
#
look at you they will say okay here's somebody
#
with a tremendous amount of purpose
#
and empathy for etc etc
#
of that outside of that circumstance
#
you know like tell me a bit
#
about yourself what is fundamental like
#
seminal moment when your father told you that
#
and suddenly you got those
#
marks and you know 93 in math
#
is mind-blowing by the way I have never done that
#
I was like really bad I think worse than you
#
like what was your sense of yourself
#
like who am I what do I want to be
#
what was it like how did it evolve
#
reason though I was the eldest
#
I mean I have two sisters
#
and two brothers and then at that time
#
I don't know I didn't understand it
#
okay I'll take it as it comes
#
because I was not good at studies I also
#
wanted to continue with
#
whatever my dad was doing I mean he was
#
in the village and his fields
#
I wanted to do all that okay I'll do that
#
that was in my mind because like most
#
my father's family was also like
#
have to end up in the business whatever we are doing
#
I mean we were in the mango farm
#
we were doing all that and also
#
we used to plough vegetables
#
I used to go to the market and live
#
night and day I used to live with my father
#
sometimes my father used to send me
#
I mean from there from the village
#
mango farm used to be there so I used to sell
#
I mean they used to do all that
#
I mean not in small amount
#
it's like three four the farm used to be big
#
so I don't know in studies
#
at that time I was not interested but then
#
after that as you said I mean one was
#
my mom's okay you wanted to
#
to prove I mean it's like
#
in mom's mind she wanted to
#
why I mean which is the life
#
of my kids and their education
#
or whatever their lifestyle is very
#
important to me which is why I have come
#
was that now they have come
#
and then now if you don't study then
#
the whole family will not get educated
#
that was all then the way he
#
probably explained it to me he
#
I mean my childhood was like
#
even now it's like when I see father
#
though I am like 40 plus
#
and father was like okay
#
I was the only kid because he
#
he couldn't even stand in front of him
#
so there must be a lot of people's experience
#
and then but then at that time
#
he has never spoken to me either
#
with his hands I mean since childhood
#
but because at that time
#
that was the first time he openly spoke to me
#
he took me to the stage
#
he was a little bit emotional
#
then I also realized how many
#
I mean what all they have sold and educated me
#
to my family I mean to my kids
#
maybe it was an hour or something
#
and he hit me a little bit at that time
#
and then that is probably
#
when I thought I didn't even
#
know what I wanted to become
#
father is saying I have to study
#
I have to get good marks
#
so that happened in the 10th
#
after the second pu I didn't even
#
know what to become like my friends
#
took some medical I was not good
#
that's why I had only one option I wanted to become an engineer
#
and why I wanted to become an engineer
#
whatever was completely
#
I had only one mind to earn
#
I mean if I join in engineering
#
then maybe 10-12 thousand or
#
at that time it was a good amount
#
10-15 thousand we will earn
#
I didn't even have in mind
#
that after engineering I will do
#
but it's just that if I study
#
for another 4 years then maybe
#
that's all I had in mind
#
and that's what happened
#
there were many relatives
#
who were like okay good marks have come
#
maybe you can send him abroad
#
if not abroad let him do MBA
#
my mom was like no there is nothing to do
#
and then after few days maybe he can give it a try
#
but then after that I did not want to
#
because that was my responsibility
#
what is my political stance
#
I was completely a political person
#
about my chief minister
#
who is the chief minister or who is the MLA
#
in 2005 I completed my engineering
#
till I would say 2008-2009
#
but slowly this happened
#
and politically after that
#
in my college there were many
#
they were only one or two
#
because in my neighborhood it was like ghetto
#
so there were only Muslims
#
though it was a Christian school
#
you have to be with Muslims
#
not with Hindus and others
#
being in Christian college
#
because in college also I got an Alameen
#
which is also for people
#
it was not like many Muslim communities
#
which had very less marks
#
I finally had to end up in this college
#
and it was the first time
#
when I went in engineering
#
when I went in engineering
#
it was like only one Muslim
#
because obviously many of my friends
#
I was just the only Muslim
#
people started differentiating
#
I didn't even know what caste was
#
I didn't even know that
#
sometimes I tell my friend
#
politically I didn't have
#
whatever responsibilities I had
#
to multiple cities, countries
#
so there was some stability
#
I used to earn 10-15 thousand
#
and then 60-70 thousand
#
which has also taught me a few things
#
the page that I started in 2014
#
there was some political awareness
#
we will change the world
#
later I realized what was wrong
#
whatever I wanted to earn
#
it was not like for the society
#
but immediate relatives
#
financially or other ways
#
she always used to put this in me
#
that you are the eldest one
#
if you will do one wrong thing
#
they will also start it
#
he was like a social activist
#
it was in a smaller circle
#
so that was in my heart
#
I would do what we are doing now
#
apart from whatever you are doing
#
at least in social life
#
BBMP is doing something
#
when we came in Alt News
#
my father and mother initially
#
they did not want me to get into this
#
because they were scared
#
they knew that this was happening
#
they were not very aware of what was happening
#
but they were aware that
#
it is a little difficult for Muslims
#
if somebody talks about politics
#
which is why they did not want me to
#
well paying job and then join Alt News
#
because later there will be problems
#
I was trying to convince them
#
but I could not convince them
#
I tried to convince them in 2017
#
after a year I was not able to convince them
#
and then I started with Alt News
#
there was some financial stability
#
which is why it is not like
#
especially when my mom goes out
#
especially after the recent
#
she now feels very proud
#
so she is also very scared for my life
#
because ever since she was arrested
#
she is glued to YouTube
#
earlier she did not watch YouTube
#
she was not interested in politics
#
if somebody talks about me
#
praises me or says something against me
#
she would come to my room
#
she would say something about me
#
don't do this, leave it
#
do it from Alt News handle
#
Aravish Kumar said something about me
#
send the message to everybody
#
especially to people from my father's family
#
why we came to Bangalore
#
even we did not think this is happening
#
but we have reached here
#
we are praising him for what he is doing
#
which also makes me happy
#
if you make an abstract narrative in your mind
#
nationalism, purity, Hindu Rashtra
#
then it is very easy to hate people
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not in front of you
#
they are not your friends
#
they are not flesh and blood
#
and I am wondering if that is something changed
#
and more of that abstract element
#
like if you were in engineering college today
#
would you be more aware of your Muslimness
#
like you were saying that you weren't aware of it at all
#
even though you were a Muselman
#
but would you be more aware of it
#
today? Do you think there is a fundamental change?
#
At first it was like this, or maybe it wasn't even an open discussion, even as you said when I was talking to Alishan,
#
one of my managers was Kumar Swami, he was again a local from Kanadiga, and he was like,
#
he always used to tell me, you look good, I mean initially I was like, be it in college or on Friday,
#
I had to wear a kurta, a white kurta, so even in the office, if I had to go for a client meeting,
#
I always used to wear it, and nobody used to stop me, and one day, he was actually shocked,
#
he was like, today is Friday, you are not wearing a kurta, I was taken aback, I actually forgot,
#
something had happened, I don't remember, yeah, then that is when, I was very happy at that time,
#
somebody was pointing out that you are not wearing a kurta, and it was different,
#
and I think this incident, this was around 2011-12, and later on we joined WhatsApp,
#
I mean for some work, we started WhatsApp, there was never any political discussion about religion,
#
I think in 2014-15, the same group started, I mean my manager, he always used to talk about religion,
#
I say, he appreciates, okay, I like your religion, it's not about demeaning,
#
but then he always used to say, you have this, I like this, I like that,
#
but then I say, in 2014-15, the same group, or 14-15, I think, yeah, 15-16,
#
so groups had already started, but then off late, I mean in 15-16, I saw,
#
but then there were three Muslims in our WhatsApp group, our company WhatsApp group,
#
there were three-four Muslims, and then when we used to meet, we used to talk very well,
#
I mean we always have spent time together in multiple countries,
#
I mean we used to go somewhere, for example, we used to go to Japan,
#
we used to go to the same company, I mean, though there were multiple other rooms,
#
I mean we used to go to hotels, but when food came, I had a friend, Varun, from Pune,
#
so we used to go to his house, though he was a Brahmin, and later we got to know,
#
but we used to go to his house, to his room, and he used to, he never,
#
I mean he was a vegetarian, but he used to cook non-vegetarian for us,
#
I mean there was so much closeness in that, but then later, in 2015-16-17,
#
we saw these changes in WhatsApp, people were talking about politics, which was fine,
#
but slowly, slowly, the communal angle in politics, the file that was being filed,
#
okay, it's possible that, suppose a murder happened, a Muslim murdered a Hindu,
#
they used to amplify that a bit more, and initially, we were like,
#
okay, maybe they must have done one mission, I mean, we didn't know that it was happening,
#
slowly, slowly, they would, I mean, later they started tagging,
#
what do we have to say about this incident, so that is when,
#
I mean, and nobody used to stop us, it used to happen, initially,
#
no political things were shared before, but slowly, it started happening,
#
after that, they used to tag us, what do we have to say about this,
#
so after that, slowly, it happened, I mean, nobody used to stop them,
#
I mean, there were managers, there were senior managers, there were colleagues,
#
and these people are the ones who, we've been together,
#
I mean, be it in India or elsewhere, when we were travelling,
#
they used to make food for us, I mean, they used to keep things in their fridge,
#
I mean, non-veg, all that, then all of a sudden,
#
it started hurting a bit, that is when one of my friends, he was a bit senior,
#
he quit the WhatsApp group, and somehow,
#
after that, a lot of people convinced him to come, but that didn't happen,
#
then again, it started happening, but then, over a period of time,
#
after that, the three of us, three Muslims,
#
two of our friends were Hindus, they also quit,
#
I mean, it was like, nothing related to our job, it was completely that,
#
and this, slowly, I think, when I speak
#
to multiple other friends of mine, this has happened everywhere,
#
and not just in office WhatsApp groups, I mean, their school WhatsApp groups,
#
I'm sure you must have also encountered,
#
yes, slowly, it has happened a lot in college WhatsApp,
#
I mean, it has started happening in family WhatsApp groups as well,
#
it wasn't like that at all, it was a little bit inside,
#
but they were never open, I mean, especially your friends,
#
I mean, as an anonymous, you can go and abuse a stranger,
#
it is very easy, but friends and family members,
#
these discussions, especially from two religions,
#
these discussions didn't happen, even if they did,
#
you would target them, or nothing like that, but I definitely think
#
after 2000, especially after 2018-19,
#
it has happened a little bit more, in 2018, I would say
#
it was about misinformation, or about a political party,
#
or people who were associated to the organization,
#
associated to the party, who would push out communal misinformation,
#
the general public wasn't that much, there were a few groups, but
#
it wasn't like that, but in 2018-19-20,
#
at the time of COVID-19,
#
it was all happening everywhere, something is happening in Pakistan,
#
something is happening in Afghanistan, look at your brothers,
#
it was very disturbing to me, also because I come from
#
the same, I mean, it felt so personal that they were targeting me,
#
which was also one of the reasons why I was more active on social media,
#
I was the one in our team,
#
to usually assign stories, Pratik also does that time, but
#
I assign stories, that we might have a fact check on this,
#
so colleagues also do that, so I was the one who used to also
#
assign stories, so most of the time
#
it was more about communal misinformation,
#
I mean, we saw a lot of articles, one is political misinformation,
#
and second is communal misinformation, and then hate speech,
#
so also that was one of the reasons, I think social media
#
has also amplified this, people are,
#
it might not have been that much, because
#
they have 10 friends and they are openly talking about it, and that gave them the energy
#
to also talk about it, otherwise they might not have done it before,
#
even with friends, but one good thing
#
has also happened, I won't say a good thing, but at least,
#
people whom you know, you know that this is communal,
#
this is against, this is written, but if you meet them, at least they won't say it in front of you,
#
for example, the day before yesterday I was saying that I have met two people,
#
one of them is the BJP's Tamil Nadu National Head,
#
I was in Chennai just a few days ago, so he said, are you Zubair?
#
Yes, Zubair, okay, very nice meeting you, have a good
#
And then he, I mean, we had an online discussion,
#
I used to call him out and he said something against me,
#
but then at least it didn't happen in front of me, only if it is anonymous,
#
I think it hasn't been on ground
#
at that level, because you are anonymous or
#
maybe you have not met people in the real world, that's why
#
there is a lot of online abuse,
#
maybe if you meet them physically, maybe
#
they haven't reached that level yet.
#
Online there is no ability to feel empathy.
#
I grew up with a kind of roasted view of India,
#
I grew up in my elite little English speaking bubble in a big city,
#
and I used to think that all of India, you know, there is, we are broadly
#
tolerant, secular, liberal etc etc, and I think this
#
has cracked over the years completely, and part of when it cracked was,
#
you know, Pratik, when I came to meet you in Delhi in 2019
#
when we recorded, that same trip I recorded with Akshay Mukul, that great book
#
of the Geeta Press, which really made me realize
#
with a start, and I recommend all my listeners, please read it if you haven't,
#
that Indian society has in a sense always been like this,
#
that I was a fringe in my English speaking bubble, and that you know, issues like
#
cow slaughter and love jihad were live political issues in the 1920s,
#
and then the big question was that what happened, that like I keep saying politics
#
has caught up with society, but something also changed in the
#
expression of it, and there what I think happened was that social
#
media made it acceptable to say things which otherwise you could not say,
#
like in polite society there were certain things you could not say, and suddenly social
#
media because of the depersonalization, because of incentivizing
#
performative behavior for your tribe, made it acceptable to say these things,
#
and once more and more people started saying these things, that ugly aspect
#
of their personality gets amplified, and therefore I feel
#
that we are in a space now where I don't know if there is going back, like how do we go back,
#
and I want to, you know, turn to you Pratik for a moment, like one of the
#
things that I think I didn't ask about in the last
#
episode we did, but I want to double click on is how Gujarat has changed,
#
like one of the most moving and heartbreaking stories I have heard
#
is about Ehsan Jafri, who of course
#
died in the riots, and Ehsan Jafri was also
#
I think had his home destroyed in a riot in the 60s sometime,
#
and then when he left his friends advised him that you go and stay in Muslim neighborhood,
#
you will be safe there, and he said no, that is not the idea of India I believe in,
#
you know, I will stay in a mixed neighborhood, I will not go inside a ghetto,
#
that's not what I believe in, right, and I absolutely love and admire that
#
sentiment, right, but eventually look what happened to him, so
#
give me a sense of Gujarat changing, because like another startling
#
thing you mentioned in the last episode is that when the 2002 riots happened,
#
in the urban areas there were a lot of Dalits who led them, in the rural
#
areas a lot of Adivasis led them, it was as if the caste distinctions vanished
#
when it came to hating Muslims, and
#
it's just so kind of bizarre to me, so give me a sense of
#
how in all your time, and you have been deeply deeply involved with
#
Gujarat, your parents have been active participants
#
in social work and civil society for decades, so give me
#
a sense of, your sense of how Gujarat changed during this time,
#
because there I also think it's a microcosm of India, it's a very diverse place, it's very
#
different everywhere, but give me your sense, you know, did we change,
#
how much did we change, how much of it was lying within all the time, was this
#
inevitable? So you know I was listening to Zubair
#
and Zubair was saying that he quit the WhatsApp group in
#
2016, and he quit that because he was
#
as a Muslim he was feeling attacked, I don't have a Muslim identity, I
#
quit my family WhatsApp group in 2013, so
#
in, I remember one of my relatives
#
of Sonia Gandhi, or it was something of Sonia Gandhi
#
being dragged by a hair, and this was posted on the family
#
group, and I said no this is not okay, and my mother said it is not okay, you know
#
you can have whatever politics you want, you can vote for whoever you
#
want, but this is not okay, you can't share something where
#
a woman is being, just because she is a politician and a woman
#
that they are showing her that they are dragging her hair down, and
#
by then it would have been a very poor morphing in 2013-14, so
#
it would have been even uglier, so Gujarat
#
reached that stage much before, that people were
#
quitting WhatsApp groups in 2012-2013, and
#
you know, so I shifted to Calcutta about 3 years
#
ago, partly it was to escape Ahmedabad,
#
I could not make friends, I, Calcutta now
#
I made friends, you know there is, there are more, I have access to more
#
people, more thought processes, but Gujarat
#
I know other people who have friends, like my partner has friends who are
#
very progressive and all of that, but I found it very difficult.
#
So if you are asking me
#
how Gujarat has changed in the last few years, actually
#
I don't have a good answer to it, what I know is that about
#
I actually mean not just in the last few years, but I think almost over the decades
#
So Gujarat, see Gujarat
#
has been a laboratory, Gujarat main jo hua
#
bad mein India main hua jo, you know, toh, but
#
what I will tell you is ki about one and a half years ago
#
I was going to pick up someone and I was on this flyover in Ahmedabad, and
#
huge flyover, you know, aapko yaad hoga 2014 ke pehle
#
jab Gujarat model ke baare baat hoti hai, yaa jabhi
#
Gujarat model ke baare baat hoti hai, toh rasto ki baat hoti hai, gujarat main raste
#
kitne achche hai, toh there is this huge
#
flyover, I was going from Ahmedabad to Gandhinagar, and now it is
#
a 40 minute drive, you can get to Gandhinagar in 40 minutes
#
and huge flyover, many many many people going, and I was like ki
#
who are these people, jo jaa rahe hai, ek bada sa
#
flyover hai, and people are going, and I felt
#
in that moment that this is a place
#
life so mechanical, ki aap ek jaghe se dusri jaghe jaare, lekin
#
kyaun jaa rahe hai, aapke upar kya uska asar ho raha hai
#
wo nahi pata hai, aur ye realization mujhe isliye
#
bhi hua kya ki main already ek saal tab Kolkata mein rahe chuka tha, ki
#
ki, I mean West Bengal has its own issues
#
in terms of politics, in terms of many many things, but
#
but I also feel that West Bengal
#
it brings something culturally which I noticed, and I am also half Gujarati
#
half Bengali, my father was, oh you are half bong like me, so there is one Bengali in this room
#
between us, I am half bong, I am half bong, you are half bong, my mom is bong
#
my father was bong, my mother is Gujarati, excellent, wow
#
so do you speak Bengali, bari te thaai boli of course, ache bari te bhangla boli
#
aadu bhangali, amazing, okay, I had no clue that
#
we should speak for the rest of this episode in Bengali
#
and leave Zubair out of it completely
#
so, because I was half bong, there was also, I could also
#
go to Kolkata and relate to that place, though culturally
#
I have never lived in West Bengal, my father did not grow up in West Bengal, my father
#
grew up in Chattisgarh in Bilaspur
#
so there my experience happened, the next day me and my mom
#
were in Kolkata looking for an office space, all of that, actually
#
it did not start then, but my mother was like, it was lunch time, why don't you
#
go get something, you know, get some bread or something
#
so I went to the shop and this guy was lying on the counter
#
where you place things, so I, with the shutter half down
#
so I told him, you know, can you give me
#
can you give me this bread, and it felt like
#
he didn't hear it, so I repeated
#
then I saw some movement, then third time
#
I said, why don't you give me an aging shalak
#
so then he is like, you see, I am rolling, he was on his phone
#
he was just crawling, so for me that was a huge shock, that can never happen
#
in Gujarat, that a person is
#
doing siesta in the shop, it can never happen in Ahmedabad
#
the other parts of Gujarat which are different, so I will not call all of Gujarat
#
but in Ahmedabad that can never happen, that a shop is open
#
and you will send the customer back
#
this is unacceptable in Ahmedabad
#
where did he send you back?
#
because he was lying down, he was on his phone and it was his break time
#
in the afternoon, and he was like, I am not going to
#
I did not react to anything, because I don't react that much
#
but in my mind I was like, wow
#
second day after coming to Calcutta, and someone just said
#
hey, this is my siesta time
#
and they are trying to tell me that, you can see that I am lying down
#
and despite that you are coming and asking me, what sort of a person are you?
#
I got to interrupt at this point and tell my listeners that when we came into this room
#
my home studio where we are recording, there were three upright chairs, and there was one
#
lazy boy in the corner, and Prateek said no no, I will do this from the lazy boy
#
where he is practically lying down, you are practically flat on that thing
#
so well done, I am glad that you at least are working despite also having a
#
kind of siesta, but sorry continue
#
so here I was introduced
#
suddenly I was introduced to a culture which is very very different
#
and I had seen this dichotomy in my home, with my mother and my father
#
I could see that culture different, but now I was seeing this in populations
#
like the Brave New World of Aldous Huxley's novel
#
I got scared even after coming to Bombay, this so much flying and going up and down
#
it looks very dystopian, so Gujarat has become
#
like the Brave New World of Aldous Huxley
#
where everyone is doing things
#
but why they are doing it, I don't know, it is not
#
their own thinking, or it is getting lessened
#
and that is the point of
#
what is happening all around us, that is what you see
#
more and more, all of this is borrowed thoughts
#
why do you become more and more hateful, it was not an original thought
#
it is what you are fed fed fed fed fed fed
#
and that becomes your thought eventually
#
so I feel that that process started in Gujarat long
#
much before, where RSS has
#
always been strong in Gujarat, as a
#
kid all my society's children
#
used to go to one place every Saturday, and I would fight
#
with my mother, why are you not letting me go
#
and at that point of time she never had a good explanation, when I grew up I realised that they were all going to RSS Shaka
#
and my mother forbade me
#
so I know that everyone, it started with one
#
person who is very close friend
#
of mine, the biggest RJ actually in Ahmedabad, he used to stay
#
diagonally across, so his father was in VHP
#
and he used to go to this RSS Shaka
#
and then this is how it works, because he is going and as children
#
like we are in class 6-7
#
so he used to tell the others to go, we will have fun there
#
then one more, then one more, so the whole neighbourhood started going to RSS Shaka
#
all the kids, so this has been happening since then
#
how does it happen, because
#
slowly slowly society gets seeped, and since then
#
RSS Shaka is at the highest, but that penetration
#
which is probably there in Madhya Pradesh, which is probably there here in Maharashtra
#
and which is there in Gujarat, that has already been more in these three
#
states, so its effect is slowly getting seen
#
along with that, this complete
#
what capitalism or ultracapitalism has brought
#
to Gujarat, this mixture of both
#
I think that is what Gujarat is, where the result of which is
#
that for example, it doesn't matter how you
#
earn money in Gujarat, if you are earning money in Gujarat, then
#
you are always looked up at, it doesn't matter
#
we know many many people who are from
#
I am sure that people are not going to be happy listening to this
#
and I don't know what is going to be the impact of this, but we know
#
that there are many many Gujaratis who have been accused in scams
#
but I don't think the society looks down upon them
#
it is okay, making money is
#
the primary motive, it doesn't matter how you make money
#
and I think that is what defines
#
Gujarat, the difference that I see for example when I go
#
from Gujarat to West Bengal, is that there at least in some
#
sections it matters how you make money, here it doesn't matter
#
and that is the defining characteristic of everything that is about
#
Gujarat. When I did an episode with Hussain Haidri, he
#
said something very striking, he said that everybody in Bombay goes over the Muhammad Ali
#
flyover, but you don't know what the flyover looks like if you are standing underneath
#
it, and even what you are saying about the flyovers is like a
#
interesting metaphor for just the psyche, that if you
#
make cognitive flyovers which are a particular kind of narrative
#
and all that, that is the only road you know, that is the only road you travel through and you
#
don't ask why, you don't ask about other roads and you don't look at it any other way
#
On that note, let's take a quick break and after the break we will continue
#
we have to talk for many many many more hours, we'll have to find a way to do it, there are only
#
three hours left but we will try our best
#
Well I'd love to help you. Since April 2020, I've enjoyed teaching
#
27 cohorts of my online course here out of clear writing and an online
#
community has now sprung up of all my past students. We have workshops, a newsletter
#
to showcase the work of students and vibrant community interaction
#
In the course itself, through four webinars spread over four weekends, I share
#
all I know about the craft and practice of clear writing. There are many exercises
#
much interaction and a lovely and lively community at the end of it
#
The course costs Rs 10,000 plus GST, all about $150
#
If you're interested, head on over to register at IndiaUncut.com slash ClearWriting
#
That's IndiaUncut.com slash ClearWriting. Being a good writer
#
doesn't require God given talent, just a willingness to work hard and a
#
clear idea of what you need to do to refine your skills
#
Welcome back to the scene in the unseen
#
Unfortunately, Zubair and Pratik have left
#
Wait a minute, this is misinformation, they are still here with me of course
#
a lot more questions about your personal journeys, but
#
we reached the founding of AltNews so nicely
#
in the last segment that I think let's sort of continue talking about
#
AltNews and the early days and all of that. I would imagine that
#
in that journey, what AltNews is has changed completely
#
like initially it is a two of you and you're putting things up with a particular purpose
#
it's an extension of what you were doing on social media, in your case Pratik
#
Root of Gujarat and you were running the unofficial Susu Swami page, which is a great name
#
and by the way, the thing with Swami
#
is that he is in a sense made for
#
parody and beyond parody. Like, about him, real news seems like parody
#
that he is like that, so you really
#
picked the right guy in that sense. But tell me about
#
the early days of AltNews, like at that time what is your
#
how were you thinking of it, were you thinking that we should do it
#
or did you have a longer plan that we need to do something like this to combat
#
the misinformation that is out there, like did you have something in mind
#
about its structure, how it will work, take me through those early
#
days. Initially it was not a longer plan, initially it was
#
that we are seeing that there is misinformation online
#
and we have certain skills
#
to debunk it, both are from engineering background
#
and it's not like we have to become an engineer to debunk it, like everyone is doing
#
but we naturally had those skills, because
#
we knew that we have to right click, we have to search in reverse
#
and if someone does not go and explore, we did that explore
#
that camera button that goes to images.google.com, what does that camera button do
#
if I had clicked and explored it, then I knew what that button does
#
being engineers, we had certain skills which we could use
#
and the misinformation back then was also far more simpler
#
the realization, it hadn't dawned upon the political class
#
as to how far the information ecosystem can be weaponized
#
there wasn't this complete grip on all forms
#
like today, if you talk about the information ecosystem, whether it's the mainstream media
#
whether it is the OTT, whether it is social media, whether
#
it is messaging platforms, every
#
pillar of information ecosystem, whether it is to a certain
#
extent video platforms as well, that is where actually they have not been able
#
to and which is where the broadcasters bill etc comes from, but otherwise
#
pretty much every pillar of the information ecosystem
#
has been captured more or less and there is a
#
continuous narrative building, so whether it is in terms of films
#
you know, Kashmir files, scala stories
#
everything is happening, then it wasn't like that, when we
#
started in 2017, then there was no realization, there was no
#
control, there was no government,
#
so at that point of time, or this was also two engineers
#
you know, in engineering, not a single social science subject is taught
#
last, you study in the 10th standard, that too for the name
#
whatever is the subject of social science, then 11th, 12th
#
is not the subject of social science, 4th is not the subject of engineering
#
so you don't have that exposure at all
#
you never asked to go to the ground, what sort of engineering are you doing
#
like in medicine, you are supposed to go to a rural area and practice
#
right, so then people, at least that exposure is there
#
but in engineering there is no such exposure, you are building solutions
#
for the society with no exposure to the society whatsoever
#
so then these are two engineers who are starting
#
to say things and think, both of us have said multiple times during the last
#
few years, then we didn't know, now we understand, right, so
#
both of them have a different journey, I had a different exposure because of my parents etc
#
but the core is the same that
#
we, at that point of time, we saw a problem and it was a typical
#
engineers approach that, oh let's try and solve this problem, and thinking that you can
#
solve this problem, both were there, that if we write a story
#
the misinformation will stop, so that is also, you know,
#
it is a typical engineer mentality
#
though you look for solution, so there is nothing long term at that point of time
#
you see a problem, you try to solve it, then, but
#
thankfully for us, the problem that we were trying to
#
address had to do with the larger world, you know, and
#
that is where, that is what forced us to think about the larger world, and
#
now if I ask, if you ask me, yes, I do
#
I do know what I want to do
#
what questions I want to explore
#
in between, I was telling, was I telling you that I want to buy an RV
#
the one in the vehicle where you live
#
I was telling you, right, in between, that there was a time about six
#
months ago, I mean I still want to do that at some point in time in my life
#
but the question as to why people think the way
#
they think, that was the book title in my head
#
that I want to write that book, why people think the way they think
#
and I wanted to get an RV and
#
travel to multiple, travel across India
#
and document and explore this thought
#
that why people think the way they think, so now there are
#
many, many ideas, there is a deeper
#
understanding of the society, of the systems, of how
#
you know, I was just, like we were talking about decentralization
#
etc, all this was not there then, so then it was that
#
there is an issue of misinformation, we know 3-4 skills
#
write articles, and yeah
#
that is how it started essentially
#
So take me into the evolution of the engine room, like show me the engine room
#
of old news then and old news now, like then I am
#
imagining at some level it is two of you doing your reverse image search and just talking
#
to each other and figuring stuff out, and now it is much more
#
process oriented and all of you have your tools and there are discussions and there is
#
a way of working, so take me through not just how it was then, how it is now
#
but even that evolution, how you learn
#
different ways of doing the same thing better, because at one level it is not
#
just about understanding the technology that you use
#
to bus misinformation, but even it becomes
#
an arms race with the misinformation peddlers also, they are getting more and more
#
sophisticated, I am imagining you also have to lift your game to keep up with
#
that, and then you have to train your people, and then you have to put processes
#
in place so there is enough rigor and all of that, so give me a picture
#
Initially when we started off, it was me and Prati
#
and there was one more colleague, initially it was only me and him
#
both of us were very active on social media and we know people
#
whatever misinformation came, because we have been following news
#
so there was doubt because of the language they use, and then
#
that is what triggered us to verify if it is true or not
#
so we wrote articles, it was like at that time
#
I was also busy with other work, he was also
#
occupied at times, it took more time in research, sometimes
#
it was done in one day or two days, but we were not
#
from a journalism background, so our style was
#
different, it was him who used to write most of the time
#
I used to concentrate more on research, so
#
if you just go back to our oldest articles
#
you will see the difference, we were a little aggressive
#
we used to think that if we write an article, it will be over
#
sometimes in language, if you just go and revisit our older articles
#
it is a little problematic, but now we have changed a lot
#
we used to give opinions along with facts, which we don't give
#
now, not at all, so it was only
#
me and him, and then we were hunting for people who are active on social media
#
we reached out to a few people, earlier we
#
had another colleague, Sam Javed, who had a Twitter
#
ID, we reached out to her initially, she was like
#
she is busy, I cannot give more time to all news, you maybe
#
try for somebody else, we talked to 2-3 more people, we had
#
ideas about who to approach, who can write, there was no money
#
obviously, there was no money, then we reached out to a few
#
then we wrote a few articles, which were very viral
#
people were very impressed with the method of the fact check
#
we used to explain the whole process, how we did it, what we got
#
they don't do it now, it was fake
#
at that time, we also used to explain it with the process, how we searched
#
it was very new to people then
#
after a few months, we again approached the same person, Sam
#
I think Sam's first article was in April
#
she was good at Twitter threads
#
which is why I was like we have to convince her
#
that is how we approached her, she was very dedicated
#
she helped us a lot for the next 2-3 years
#
after 3 of us, there was one more colleague of ours
#
then in November 2017, the company finally got rest
#
this is where my mother, who is the managing director of the organization
#
plays a huge role and continues to play a huge role
#
we are both at the front, but she is the one who is at the back
#
she said, if you want to do this
#
register an organization, don't do it
#
it took me half an hour to make the website
#
but she was like no, you have to register an organization
#
and then it was decided that we will register a not for profit organization
#
I think 1st November or 10th November 2017
#
the organization finally registered
#
she said that we are never going to take a single rupee
#
in our personal accounts, which is why you need an organization
#
because she has been a part of so many struggles
#
so the fact that you take money from your bank account
#
becomes a personal liability
#
this understanding was there before
#
many people made a mistake during Covid, that they took money from their bank account
#
irrespective of what your intention is
#
the systemic understanding comes from my mother
#
that you should not take a single rupee in your personal bank account
#
you can get a salary, but you should not take money directly from your personal bank account
#
so then Feb to November, no salary
#
November, finally the company gets registered and we do our first crowdfunding
#
and that is when end of November I get my first salary
#
December 1st, there was this Arjun Siddharth
#
he was the first employee of Alt News
#
Arjun was in contact with me for many months
#
when the money came in, I reached out to Arjun that Arjun the money has finally come in
#
do you want to come join? so he joins December 1st 2017
#
and Priyanka joins Jan 1st 2018
#
Priyanka used to work in real estate, she was selling
#
she was working in a new building, she was selling houses
#
she came, I knew her through someone
#
so she came home and she was like Pratik I want to learn
#
so she started coming back in September
#
September or August, she used to come
#
I told her to translate Hindi and learn fact checking
#
so she used to come back at 5pm
#
I used to sleep at 4pm and wake up at 2pm
#
my sleep cycle was improved, I was sleeping better then
#
so then we would start working and then she would go home
#
in the evening and that is how
#
it started, now Priyanka has been in the organization
#
I mean unofficially since September 2017 and officially since
#
Jan 1st 2018 and she, every article that
#
goes out in Alt News, she reads it atleast once
#
so when she got married, in the history of Alt News
#
we made one mistake in one article and Priyanka was getting married
#
so that one article got lost
#
where we had to retract, we only had to retract one
#
article and that is because I told her that you got married that's why our article got wrong
#
amazing, why did you get married?
#
we were also lucky or helpful in a way
#
because as soon as we started, we already had this base
#
many people were following us, especially me and him on Facebook
#
but also there were a lot of journalists who were following him on Twitter
#
and also because of the association, because of his mom and dad
#
many big journalists were following
#
which actually helped us in amplifying whatever we put out on Twitter
#
which also helped later on in crowdfunding
#
but coming back to the question of processes, back then, so what we have
#
firstly in terms of arms race, actually the ammunition has not changed
#
the ammunition back then was still clipped videos
#
old images, old, you know
#
I think the only thing that has, you know this whole thing about defake
#
it is not really, it has
#
affected in other ways, in the sense that online frauds have increased
#
but the defake hasn't come into the space of
#
political disinformation, in fact this time, first time in the US election
#
its impact is visible, but Indian, it was not there in the 2024 election
#
this was made up, look, defake, defake, defake
#
and lot of people invested in that
#
oh, defake is going to be a big issue, we'll come to this issue
#
I think we should talk about this issue, but going back to the issue
#
that in the arms race, even from that side
#
the ammunition is not changing, the same ammunition is being used, but it has been organized
#
it is far more organized, volume, organized and there is state support
#
but ammunition is the same, still they were making clipped videos
#
still they are making clipped videos, so ammunition hasn't changed
#
therefore the tools haven't changed, we use the same tools
#
what has changed is, we actually learned journalism, we didn't know journalism, we learned journalism
#
we didn't know, I recall
#
we got into a call where
#
so one RSS man talking to
#
somebody in the US, I still have the call recording somewhere, 2017
#
wherever, where they are talking about money and how RSS
#
can't accept money directly and that these are the other ways of sending money
#
to RSS, from US, but we did not have the journalistic understanding of being able
#
to do the story and we did not do the story, so now we are able to do
#
many many complicated stories, because we have a journalistic understanding
#
and of course, so that is
#
what has changed, that is how to our
#
storytelling ability has vastly improved, we did not have
#
that ability back then, so
#
very very complicated stories, we have a lot of complicated investigations
#
for example, this wire, the guy who
#
wrote the story of Techfork, Devesh
#
we recently did an investigation
#
it is a very long investigation, we have a lot of stories
#
we have a lot of stories in 5000-7000 words,
#
we used to have a story of 500 words, that is how we used to write
#
it is only when Sam came, when the stories became longer
#
and now we write like really, we write long form stories and
#
that is the focus, that we have to write this long
#
because that is, misinformation
#
you can write a short story to burst, but if you want to punctuate the narrative
#
you have to write a long story, so we have learned
#
that, storytelling, journalism, those are the tools
#
and also those days we were concentrating on misinformation
#
on social media, then off late we also started about
#
like documenting hate speeches
#
or focusing more on mainstream media, because
#
there is no difference between social media
#
in terms of spreading misinformation and disinformation
#
and also about platform accountability, we didn't write that much
#
if we see a video about child molestation
#
which is amplified on social media platform, we write it to them, asking why is it not taking them
#
this is against your own policy, so we didn't do that much before
#
now we also grow in multiple other things, apart from
#
misinformation we also document, we also hold
#
platforms accountable and also mainstream media
#
so you know there is another aspect of evolution
#
I am sort of curious about, which is
#
how do you choose what to fact check and what not to fact check
#
like initially I am guessing that there is an urgency, that
#
this is something that can cause strife and this is political and whatever and that is
#
the initial impulse which takes you there, but once you have
#
set up Altenews as a way of countering misinformation
#
then the question becomes what do you choose
#
because we are surrounded by misinformation and you obviously can't tackle even a fraction
#
of the misinformation out there, so how do you dedicate the resources
#
when I asked my writing students to give me questions for you guys, if they had any
#
someone called Ganpati gave a very nice
#
option set where he said that is it the ones that could
#
cause the most damage to social fabric, is it the ones intended with malice, is it the
#
ones which is susceptible to virality, is it the ones coming in
#
for repeated requests from the public, is it the ones coming from a
#
position of power, position of officialhood, so how do you decide
#
that if you want to fact check then what to do, like one thing I have noticed about you and I pointed
#
this out in previous episodes where I mentioned you guys, is that actually you are completely
#
bipartisan, you fact checked everybody, right, congress puts out BS
#
you fact checked that, the government puts out BS, you fact checked that, random
#
influencer puts out BS, you fact checked that, but then how do you
#
decide, like what is in the organisational philosophy, when
#
you start it is coming from a place of urgency and emotion I am guessing
#
but after that, you know, what is your style guide for deciding
#
that what to fact check, one is
#
it is actually all of those things, all of those things, one if it is
#
highest priority is something that will cause social harm, that is highest priority
#
next is someone influential saying
#
something, so that includes mainstream media, if mainstream media puts out misinformation
#
then that becomes high priority, if an individual
#
who occupies a position of power puts out and power
#
could be anything, reach also constitutes power, so then
#
that becomes high priority, if an individual
#
is being targeted using misinformation, typically
#
what happens is that if an individual becomes part of a new cycle
#
or part of a social conversation
#
and they have a political relevance then they are targeted, so
#
I will give you a quick example, Aatish Tasi wrote a piece
#
before 2019, leading up to 2019 elections
#
in Time magazine which was critical of Mr. Modi
#
immediately his Wikipedia page was
#
changed and it was said that he works for Congress IIT cell and that screen shot
#
was taken and pushed out everywhere, so when
#
I mean Shehla has gone to the other side but when for example
#
Shehla was doing crowd funding
#
crowd funding for the Kathua victim and the
#
Unnao victim, both, both
#
that she had sort of consumed all the money
#
and then we did a very, it took us a long time
#
to fact check that story, I think Shehla had that
#
as a pin tweet for close to a year
#
until recently she had that alt news tweet as a pin tweet
#
because everyone she met would ask her that
#
so individuals being attacked
#
that is a high priority, medical misinformation
#
that is extremely harmful, that is
#
priority. And also if it is viral, I mean
#
it's not like somebody on Twitter posted this
#
so based on virality also we check, for example
#
we copy paste that text and also see if it is also viral on multiple other
#
platforms and if somebody has also shared it on WhatsApp, if it is
#
then we also, right, but it won't be a high priority but then yes
#
virality, if it is extremely viral and if it is
#
incorrect, then we would fact check it, right.
#
I'm curious also about what you said earlier that
#
journalistic values, you know, that your journalistic understanding has changed
#
that earlier fact, opinion, everything used to work like normally social media posts are
#
but now you only do facts and not opinion and all that and I'm interested
#
in like a larger question here and at one level
#
when you look at journalism, you know, you can either look at journalism
#
as supply meeting a demand which is the demand is for information
#
the demand is for understanding, there is a supply to meet that demand but it is
#
instrumental and therefore the bottom line matters and therefore whether you're making
#
a profit matters or not and this is one narrow view of journalism
#
another view of journalism is that there is no, there is a higher purpose, that you have to speak
#
truth to power, that comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable, etc, etc
#
though a senior editor of a major Indian newspaper recently said
#
non-jokingly that my job is to comfort the comfortable, so I won't
#
name that guy here, but, I mean, it's disgusting
#
but, so, that is another way of looking at it that there is
#
a higher purpose and when I look at the Indian media landscape
#
what I see is ki ek toh the mainstream guys have failed us completely
#
but it is easy to understand why they have failed us completely because
#
you know, they are all part of big industrial houses, there are other interests
#
IT raid ho sakta hai, ED aa sakti hai, so you cannot expect anything from them
#
so fine, you know, they have gone the way that they have gone
#
but at the same time you have independent media which has come up
#
like Scroll, News Minute, News Laundry, who are fighting a good fight, who are independent
#
who don't have all of those other trappings that big businesses do
#
and it is, it began as a kind of gorilla warfare
#
but now it's, you know, pretty substantial, but even here there is a danger
#
that in speaking truth to power, you, it can
#
shade into activism and away from journalism, where it can sometimes
#
seem that, oh, you know, you are only going to look at the world through
#
one prism and whatever, and you avoided this, because like I said
#
you have been completely bipartisan, you will fact check anyone, you don't care, you only care about the truth
#
but what I find intriguing, is ki shuru mein jab aap shuru hua the
#
one would have said ki ye journalist nahi hai, and that's okay, their purpose is to fight
#
misinformation, that is the one purpose they are doing, that's what they have gone out to do
#
but what I also admire is that you have then said ki nahi
#
we will do this with a certain set of values, which are
#
the values of good journalism, that ek rigor hoga humare
#
fact checking mein, that is how we build trust and credibility, and etc etc
#
the whole package, so I, so it's really a dual
#
question, ki first ye jo Indian landscape hai, ye kaisa hai, like
#
is my description of it something that you broadly agree with, and secondly
#
then, how did you come to this step, because it is not a step I take
#
for granted, it is very, it would have been very easy for you guys to say ki
#
hum misinformation kar rahe hain, sirf wahi karenge, etc etc, but you took on
#
this larger ambit, and said that no we are more than that, and
#
that in being more than that, it is not just about the things we do, but how we
#
do them, it is about the values that we bring to it, so tell me about this
#
journey and how you arrived at this, where you are not just doing
#
misinformation, like right now I think you are way past it obviously, you know
#
your analysis of what's happening in big tech, what's happening
#
in society is just way deeper than many other journalistic outlets
#
so ye journey kaise ho hi, yaan kaise poche?
#
ek to main bolna chahunga ki, see
#
actually I consider myself as an activist too, I am an engineer
#
I am a journalist, I am an activist, and I don't think that
#
a journalist cannot be an activist, an activist cannot be a journalist, because all of
#
these are skills, an activist has a certain
#
set of skills, a journalist has a certain set of skills, and capability
#
an engineer has a certain set of skills and capabilities, so but
#
what we are trying to do is address an issue
#
what is the issue that our information ecosystem
#
is corrupt, it is broken, and how do you address
#
that issue, so to address that issue, I have to be
#
a journalist, I will be a journalist, if I have to be an activist, I will be an activist, if I have to
#
do engineering, I have to write code, I will write code, so that is the
#
thing, that information ecosystem is broken, there are deep biases
#
now if you are fact checking misinformation, and
#
you already know that misinformation leads to biases, and then
#
if you fact check only one side, then you are not addressing the core problem, you
#
already know that what does mainstream media do, what does
#
for example someone like ANI do, selective journalism, it is mainstream media
#
does not necessarily, they are doing misinformation, but their mandate
#
is to do selective journalism, that is the mandate, because let us say if you talk only about
#
one side of the story, and if you flood the information ecosystem with
#
only one side of the story, that kind of becomes the truth, so
#
the point is of doing whatever we are doing is, we do not want
#
to exacerbate the already
#
issues which are already there, so it is already a biased divided society
#
now imagine if you start fact checking only one side
#
then we are only going to increase the divisions, so
#
the problem that we are trying to address
#
necessitates that we fact check all sides, and
#
you know lot of journalists sort of talk about activists
#
in a very pejorative manner, but activism for example
#
there are stories where one person
#
got arrested because it was falsely
#
claimed that they said Pakistan Zindabad when they had not
#
I will not name the exact story, but there
#
I knew an activist in that state who was a very prominent
#
activist, I reached out to them, they went to the police station
#
they said that this is the case and that person actually came out, that is
#
not my mandate as a journalist, but I know that a person has
#
unfairly been arrested and so I
#
you know if I am able to go do that extra mile, I will do
#
that, I will go and stand and protest, the issue
#
it is where does the issue happen, it is all
#
about conflict of interest, so let us say if
#
I am an affected party, right, if I am
#
for whatever reason let us say if I am protesting
#
and if I have to fact check the same thing and if there is a conflict of
#
interest that arises, if my activism and journalism
#
there is a conflict of interest then it is an issue
#
and that is what you are supposed to avoid, but let us say if I am
#
going and standing in a rally about Palestine that does not
#
affect my ability to fact check what is coming from Gaza, it does not
#
because it is you know there that is a matter of solidarity
#
it is you know what is happening in Gaza is not directly affecting me, but
#
I am saying that it is wrong and I will go and stand in solidarity
#
just the way I will go and stand in solidarity if a journalist is attacked
#
so solidarity which is form of and you know
#
there are many types of activism, so I will do all of that
#
till the time there is no conflict of interest
#
and that is... I think what I meant was not so much
#
that activism and journalism are necessarily
#
a binary and etc etc you know we contain multitudes
#
in a part of my life I might be an activist, I might be a journalist, I am not an engineer
#
but just because I did not study it otherwise there is nothing wrong with being an engineer
#
but one is many things, I think my issue somewhat
#
was and I think you have answered that anyway that I feel activism
#
can become a problem when it has a reflection on the stories that you choose
#
to do and then it kind of becomes an issue where you only
#
have one prism through which you are looking at the world and that ideological prism can
#
dictate the facts you choose to report and I think that can be a problem
#
which is you know not at all an issue with you, I think it is an issue with some others
#
but you know that other set up that basket of values
#
like for example the rigor you know you mentioned that you only had to retract
#
one story because Priyanka got married
#
but you know from whatever
#
I can see from the outside your rigor is outstanding you know your
#
fact checking rigor is outstanding initially like Zubair you said that you used to share
#
how you did it so that everybody can see for themselves that yes it is okay
#
today even if you don't need to go through all the details you know people have that trust
#
I read something on altnews and I know it is legit I don't need to doubt it
#
tell me a little bit about how did you learn those processes
#
you know because those processes also come into like little things like facts and not opinions
#
little things like you know
#
making the judgement calls like should a story be 500 words or 5000 words
#
you know so take me through those processes
#
also I remember in 2019 just before elections
#
the Pulwama thing happened and soon after that there was misinformation from the
#
other side that is from the congress side or people against BJP
#
and as they were talking about bias
#
people might think that we do it one side but no we do it from both the sides
#
so there was a very viral claim which was like
#
such a dangerous claim which claimed that the Pulwama
#
is an inside job and wherein they show a video of bits and pieces
#
of Amit Shah, Rajnath Singh or with multiple
#
senior politicians talking about say how we should
#
do this, how to do it, how to end it
#
and watching the video it felt like it really happened
#
this discussion has happened but then that was like they gave an interview to someone
#
they took a 10 second or 5 second video and they made it a whole video
#
of 1-2-3 minutes of video and they clearly showed how
#
this is an inside job, if it was really a bias then we would not
#
have touched it and everybody, there was so much viral
#
and nobody was able to fact check it
#
even from the right wing were actually shocked that how to counter this
#
and I remember me and one more colleague of mine, Jignesh and
#
Arif, he helped us in Akip
#
so we sat down at night and then we got to know
#
that this Rajnath Singh's video was posted somewhere else
#
we finally found out and then we
#
got to know how viral this is and
#
from where the whole video was taken, for that the whole day we did not sleep
#
I remember in Ahmedabad, so soon after that
#
we discussed it in the morning and published it
#
and the impact of our story, of fake news
#
that everybody, the already confirmed bias that this could be an inside job
#
and to prove it, a video came out
#
and Pakistani websites were putting that video
#
all Pakistani websites were putting that video, Pulwama is an inside job
#
so all that was the basis and it was not an instant
#
that we just have to do it from one side, if we have to fact check then we have to do it from both sides
#
so we have been doing this from the day
#
you have done this from day 1 as far as I recall
#
I also share my timeline, I also share fact checks
#
and I also individually target some BJP
#
or I do it from my personal account, for example, a politician said something
#
and then I bring out his older tweets and see how hypocrisy it is
#
earlier he used to say this, now he is saying that, I do all that
#
which I think should be done, but again, if you come to articles
#
you don't see all that, in that we have to follow
#
the standards, there will be no bias, even if we know personally
#
someone who has put out misinformation, we include all that
#
and we have relationships are sour because of that
#
because we are fact check friends, but the point of rigor
#
so there is an editorial process, any rigor comes from a process
#
and there is an editorial process where basically
#
is seen by at least two sets of eyes, one the person who is writing
#
and then two sets of editors, as I said, so there is
#
Indadeep who is presently the English editor
#
and Priyanka is Hindi editor, but she
#
is our interface to the outside world, so Priyanka
#
if the article goes out, if Priyanka is not there, then Kinjal, but
#
it is at least seen by two sets of eyes and often by three sets of eyes, which is mine
#
so it goes to three sets of eyes, everyone
#
reads the article and says, okay, this does not look okay
#
and very often Zubair would read the first draft
#
so it is just how many layers it is going through
#
and that ensures that we are not making errors
#
and also our articles, unlike other news channels
#
in which there are 50 articles per day, what happens in that is
#
they do it and publish it without further verification
#
even for research, multiple, for example, I am writing an article
#
it could also be involved in the research, okay, this has also been spread
#
almost everybody is involved, almost everybody is involved
#
yes, every story is multiple, even if it is written by one person
#
that process, there are many inputs in writing
#
and then again, as I said, during the editor editing, that too
#
four people watch it, and every, you will see every long-form story
#
that we have written, there are almost always two authors, it is never one author
#
so then you are automatically, you know, bouncing things of each other
#
so that way you reduce errors and
#
that is going through multiple, you know, multiple stages of review
#
it has to be this much, that without this, the story, where
#
when, what, these three
#
without establishing, you cannot publish the story, first
#
where, only the major difference between us and traditional journalists
#
to answer the questions where and when, we typically use
#
use digital technologies, where this video has come from, where this photograph has come from
#
but what question is like traditional journalism, we call people
#
and figure out what happened, you know
#
and also the assignment of the story, it is not like one person is sitting and he has assigned
#
you have to do this, you have to do that, so we always have this discussion every morning
#
I am sorry, is it because of me, you haven't had the discussion today
#
we always skip the call
#
so it is not like people pitch in stories, do we have to write
#
this discussion, so we also don't
#
ask them not to do a particular story, everyone is independent
#
they can do whatever they want to do
#
so for example, one of our colleagues Abhishek, he is like, he has done
#
so many stories on Facebook, he is on Facebook, he will
#
find things, like he is going after the Facebook ad system
#
and that has become his passion, so he is doing those stories
#
and no one else is doing the story because it is impossible to do
#
that kind of following without, when you don't have a passion, like I am not following those things
#
I will work as an editor and I will
#
tell him that we need more of this and more of that, but it is his passion
#
which has ensured that we have so many articles about the Facebook ad system
#
and so you let him, you know, let him pursue his passion
#
that he thinks that this is very important for him, so
#
you know, so there are stories which you have done, of course
#
it is always, so for example, couple of colleagues wanted to do a story
#
about the boxer, what's her name, Imam?
#
So they were, you know, they were really
#
passionate about it and they wanted to
#
do the story, but there was not enough in the story
#
so then, I am like, yeah, it is good to be passionate about the story
#
but then it has to, you know, we are not going to do the story just
#
for the sake of doing the story, there has to be something that we bring to the table
#
so that is also another thing that we always do, some stories
#
are important that okay, this is viral, let's do it, but
#
we always try to bring something that is
#
altruistic to the table, into the stories,
#
what is new, what is the benefit of doing the same thing, so
#
and investigations are coming out from that point of view, like
#
we did a story recently about how a video
#
was viral on Instagram, it was a porn video where it showed penetrative
#
sex between, non-consensual penetrative sex between
#
two individuals and 7 million views, means
#
13 year old kids, 12 year old kids are watching Instagram, so
#
out of 7 million views, at least 10 percent,
#
if not more, I would say more, but at least 10 percent of the views
#
so which means 7 million views are from
#
people younger than 15 years of age, they have watched
#
a non-consensual video and Instagram
#
hasn't taken it down, it's only after we sent an email
#
that they take it down with a one line reply, oh we have now taken it down, we sent them
#
detailed questions, kaise hua aapka, hum logon ne report kiya hai,
#
lekin aap logon ne down nahi kiya, aapka reporting mechanism kya
#
nahi kaam kar raha, toh in logon moderation mechanism pe toh hum logon
#
ne bahot saare sabhaal uthaya hai, toh these are stories
#
which don't necessarily get views, but which is where it is
#
so important to, you know that our
#
donations and our views are
#
not linked, as in we are able to do stories which don't get views, because
#
these two are not married to each other, because modern
#
journalism views is married to monetization, toh jo view aayega
#
wohi aap story kar paoge, there are lot of stories where yeh aap logon, yeh notice bhi
#
nahi kiya hoga, lekin we know that this video we have taken down and that
#
Instagram, I don't think there is any other
#
fact checking, I don't, at least in India, no one
#
is looking at platforms, the way we are looking at platforms, for example
#
on Facebook before the election there was, wo jo jisko live
#
shoot kiya tha na TV pe, the UP ka jo
#
yeh de hai aapko, so wo video dal ke Facebook pe ad chala tha ki
#
ki if you want more of this vote for BJP, wow
#
lot of money was spent on that ad, and then we
#
wrote to Facebook ki boss what is this, and it was taken down, but did you trace
#
ki who was paying the money and running the ad?
#
So we have written an article on that also that Facebook, the last
#
US election they said oh we are going to bring ad transparency etc, and now
#
they have completely diluted that, so we have written an article about that, that in 2016
#
when was the last election, after
#
the post the Trump election they brought in ad transparency, saying that oh now you'll
#
be able to know who's spending with political ads, now you can't, so they have
#
they have completely, they did that because at that point of time
#
they had to show ki we'll be transparent about who's spending in ads, now you can't
#
you can't find out who's spending, because these are pseudo names, some
#
random phone numbers, random Facebook names, Ulta Chashma, this that
#
you don't know who's spending the money, so we have done an article
#
on that too, and these are also, some of these articles are difficult to execute
#
there, they are not easy to execute, but because we have been
#
able to, that money is coming and it is not
#
you know, it is, that's why there's no advertisements, because as soon as you get
#
into that ki acha advertisement se paisa aara hai, to kyun aayega advertisement se paisa
#
jyada views aayega, so then automatically aapka juka ho jayega ki hum log views ke li
#
article kare kyunki advertisement se paisa aara hai, to advertisements hain hi
#
nahi website pe. No no, I completely agree with
#
that and I completely agree with your logic of doing it through donations only, I think the
#
incentives work best that way, the people who are donating are donating for a reason and I think
#
they would all approve of even the kind of stories that don't get views
#
Here's another question, the misinformation machinery
#
out there is very strong, in our last episode you spoke about how some of it was organic
#
after Jio broadband came, it became ubiquitous, young people were putting up all kinds of
#
content to see what would work and it so happened, sensational content, a lot of which
#
was misinformation happened to work and that was an early challenge
#
But today it's really organized, there is a machinery behind it
#
that machinery has the best technology, they are doing their SEO, they are doing their
#
marketing, they are on various distribution channels and have a lot of money
#
So now when it comes to your busting this misinformation
#
therefore very early on I'm guessing your attention would have shifted
#
not just from the content of the busting ki yeh story hai
#
aur yeh galat hai, isliyeh galat hai, but also on how you put it out
#
Because now your reach begins to matter, because fighting misinformation
#
just by doing an article on a website that nobody may read doesn't help the world
#
What you need is to expand your reach and multiply that as well
#
So how did you then start about thinking of this
#
not just in terms of alt news but the ecosystem, broadly what can be done
#
like broadly what did you do, because then at one level you can
#
correctly despise the clickbait headlines
#
like blah blah blah, you'll never guess what happened next, but at another level
#
you also have to think that what will make people click, so what has been your journey
#
thinking about this issue?
#
So two things, number one, realization that we are not going to be able to reach
#
that the work of alt news is in accountability and integrity
#
not necessarily in informing large people, that is
#
not possible in this day and age with Facebook algorithms
#
I mean Facebook's fact checking partners
#
you go to their page, they don't get two likes
#
so they really, how does that make sense that Facebook is not even promoting
#
their own fact checking partners, so reach
#
people are not reading us, like
#
many people know alt news, but how many articles come on the timeline
#
who will read that article
#
who slightly thinks about
#
issues and if Google searches then it will come on our
#
article, our work is in the space of
#
accountability and integrity, that is where our space is and the other thing
#
I will say again is that misinformation is a systemic issue
#
the misinformation is viral but your
#
article does not reach, this is not a solution
#
if the article reaches everyone then also misinformation is viral, this is not a solution
#
that if the article reaches then misinformation will not be viral, because in that
#
there is a different kind of, this has to be fixed at a foundational level
#
at an educational level of how to deal with a fundamentally broken
#
information ecosystem, but as far as
#
reach is concerned, no we don't do anything specific for the reach, you will see our
#
articles are clunky and large and we try to give a lot of information
#
in the titles, we don't make it click bit, the reason
#
why and a lot of credit goes to Zubair
#
though we are not always on the same page about that, but the reason why
#
we are making more impact than other
#
fact checking porters is because we are
#
challenging the people who are putting out the misinformation, he
#
goes and tags everyone, upar ko tweet karega, niche reply karega
#
you know, har tweet pe yaake upar ko tweet karega, niche reply karega
#
toh unlog ke supporters
#
bhi dekh raha hai, toh we are in their faces
#
and I also used to do that for a certain period of time, I don't
#
do much of that, but the point is that again this is where the
#
activism part comes into picture, we are doing journalism
#
but then we are also taking that extra step
#
where we are saying that no, we are not going to stop at that, we are going to
#
be in your faces and that is why the hate, that is why the hate
#
that we are constantly in people's faces and we are like no, this is wrong, this is wrong
#
kahi bhi jao toh aapko uska tweet dekhega
#
upar, niche, aage, piche, toh
#
usse ek brand bani hai, usse readership
#
para ki relevant jagah pe readership hai na
#
kisi ne kuch bola hai, uske niche article hai toh wahan se readership aari hai
#
it is not, but that is not done necessarily
#
in order to increase the reach, but the aim is
#
to inform and the aim is to ensure that information is at
#
the right place, not just on our handle which no one is
#
reading, but it is in a place where it is relevant that is under
#
In a way, we write articles like
#
for example, Boom hai, Quint hai, they all write articles
#
at times what happens is we publish an article, jo time pe
#
online ho dekhenge, retweet karenge, share karenge and then
#
not everybody, the article would not reach to many people
#
so mera wahi tha ki hum itnai mehnat karke article likhe hain and it is not reaching
#
more and more people. Mere dimaag mein yeh rata tha pehle se bhi ki
#
it has to reach at least to the people who are reading that misinformation. For example, kisi ne fake
#
news phaila hi hai, toh jaa ke usko quote tweet karo, reply karo, pehle reply karta tha, quote tweet
#
nahi karta tha, so mujhe ajeep lagta tha ki it's like targeting them
#
but for people who have been doing regularly, main jaa ke
#
tumne yeh choose kiya hai, toh main bhi jaa ke aapko quote tweet karunga, uska handle tag
#
karunga, uske response mein likhunga ki yeh hai, this is the fact check, what you have spread is wrong
#
toh usme kya hota hai ki ek toh, theek hai people who are
#
for example uska 2-4, 2-3 million views hai, toh people now
#
abhi toh viral ho gaya, toh aur jyada hoga ho, toh what happens I go and reply
#
respond to them, reply to them, toh people at least from now who are
#
visiting his tweet would at least mera upar haega, just
#
below his tweet, toh wo ek hai and then usme
#
they'll also feel insulted, which is why the hate as I said
#
that itna jyada viral ho raha hai, now that
#
shayad ho sakta hai monetize ho raha tha, uska aacha khasta paisa ban raha tha, now that
#
wo monetize nahi hoga, or kuch community notes lag jayenge, wo kabhi
#
insulted feel ho gaya, delete kar dega, embarrassed feel ho gaya, toh wo bhi hota hai
#
and also apart from this, there's one more thing, bahot saare YouTubers
#
hai, dono side se YouTubers hai, kabhi aisa hota hai
#
ki hum ne article publish ki, may be they've not seen that article, but
#
bhi ye viral content hota hai, kisi ne fake news file hai hai, uske niche jaake likho
#
toh they also notice this, which is how, may be article is not reaching
#
people, but what we've written in the article is reaching people, which is one
#
way. And what that also does is ki, mano kisi ne
#
dala hai, or iske niche dala hai, so then there's a second
#
thought, should we, retweet an article, or should we, let's say
#
if it's a YouTuber, then should we amplify this
#
information, considering that it's already been debunked, and they can see
#
that it is debunked. So for example, once again, Pakistan Zindabad
#
story, raat ko 2 baje tak
#
badke hum logne article likha, raat ko 2 baje publish kiya,
#
sube ek channel ki journalist ka phone aata hai,
#
ki kal aapne raat ko article likha,
#
toh maine jaake apna editor ko dikha nahi, toh editor ne mujhe
#
story karne ko bola tha, toh maine o story nahi kiya.
#
Abhi hum log jab shuru kiye the tab, you know we were burning the midnight
#
oil aapko 2-3 baje tak jake karta tha, abhi bhi kabhi kawar karta hai, kabhi kawar karta hai,
#
kabhi karta hai, but tab toh regular tha, fir at one point aapka burnout hone
#
lagta hai, social life nahi tha, kuch nahi tha, we were so into
#
this ki, din, raat, saturday, sunday, har din karne the, toh
#
tab timely jata tha, zyada timely jata tha, hum log
#
baithi rehta the hum log. I remember my wife would always say, ki matlab tum gharwalon se
#
aur mere se yada, matlab tumhari second girlfriend hai Pratik, toh utna zyada
#
interaction karte the, matlab for every 5-10 minutes, yeh hua hai, yeh karna hai, yeh likna hai.
#
Toh lekin, wo timely dene se kya hota hai, isli main
#
bolo ki hum log kaam hai, accountability aur integrity ka,
#
more than reach ka, to inform people, ki ki that is not in our
#
control, we can't control who all will see
#
our article, but we can control that we go and
#
sort of insert ourselves in relevant places
#
and then hopefully there will be 3 people who will say, oh
#
it's already in fact check, we won't do an article. Haan, one is people would not do
#
an article agar wo sides ke hain, but there are also people who write
#
article, dekhi yeh fact check hua hai, and that is actually reaching wider audience, specially
#
on YouTube and multiple other, with credits. Yeah, we have
#
a copy left license, so then people are taking our content,
#
first day onwards we are, even Rudra Gujrat was a copy left license, so
#
copy left license hai, so then we are saying, telling the world that you can take our
#
content, we are not going to charge for it, you give us attribution, attribution nahi dete toh bhi
#
hum log kuch panga nahi karte hain, toh people are then
#
taking it and amplifying it.
#
I love the nuance that is not enough to do this story, you have to make sure that is
#
read by the people who have to, you know that journalism shading into
#
activism at just the right point, when it should and not before and
#
you know, so that's kind of a beautiful point, because I think a lot of creators
#
and a lot of journalists would think that our dharma is to do the work, you know
#
like, I of course, like my belief is a good product is the best
#
marketing, so I just do what I do and I don't market at all, but I completely understand
#
that here there is a larger social issue and therefore you
#
have to kind of get it out there. I also want to ask about
#
how do you deal with the hate, especially Zubair,
#
you've been at the target of I think just so much and
#
it's very much easier target than Prateek also, because Muslim, because
#
of what the times are and at one level
#
how do you feel about like, ever since my early blogging days, 2003
#
I've got abuse, you know even on Twitter I've been mobbed by
#
both sides, but the point is not even close to the scale
#
at the kind of hate that you have received and of course it's much worse for women
#
because the kind of threats that they get. Do you manage to grow a thick enough skin
#
that it doesn't matter to you or how do you deal with it,
#
how do you protect your loved ones from it, because you know
#
at some points you must be worried about your family, I don't think it can be nice
#
for them to go online and see the things that are said about you, so how did you
#
what is your journey dealing with the hate that's been directed at you?
#
Off late it has affected a little, but that was because my family
#
got to know, they were never on social media, soon after my arrest
#
they started following me on multiple platforms, at different places,
#
about my news or YouTube, but since 2014 I've been getting abuses
#
and I've been ignoring them, at times I laugh it up, but
#
sometimes it happens that they abuse families
#
call meter raised, ISIS, all that happens, but
#
it's just that, I don't know, as you said I've become a thick skin, so
#
I just ignore that, at times I also mute them, if someone is doing it regularly
#
then I mute them, but I read them, but
#
I think it has not affected me, because it's okay,
#
what more can we do initially? It does affect a little. Yes, this is like
#
I'm talking about after 2023,
#
after that, recently also we did this, especially after my arrest
#
after I came back from the jail
#
I was always looking out for the tweets
#
and articles written about me, day and night
#
I used to see a little more, what did he say, what did she say, because
#
they were saying that she is Bangladeshi, OpIndia has written
#
100-200 articles, in different ways, they tried to prove
#
that she is not Indian, her family is not there, nobody is speaking for him
#
nobody is coming, family is not coming out, after seeing that
#
I felt very bad, and then also, because my mother
#
started following bad news, she would never be
#
on YouTube or phone, but soon after release, still go and see
#
she'll have this phone, put it in the earphone, at night
#
12-1 am, it is like, only she'll be hunting for any news
#
that is related to me, good or bad, if it is good, she'll be happy
#
if not, she'll come late in the night, if I don't leave the room
#
if I work too much, she'll be disturbed,
#
there must be some problem, which is why he is not speaking to us all, so she'll come and
#
say that everything is fine, I saw something, Ajit Bharti said this, she said that
#
everything is fine, is there going to be an FIR, so that is a little disturbing
#
and then kids also sometimes
#
but apart from that, personally, there was something in between
#
that is because I would say, because I covered a lot of
#
Palestine and Israel, so I have seen him going through phases, for example
#
during Gaza, after Gaza, he was absent
#
I was not responding to anybody,
#
he was absent, for say one month or so, close to one month
#
he was completely absent, and this is bound to happen
#
he still carries an anger
#
when he was arrested, he justified
#
in different ways, I know that
#
I can see when he tweets about them
#
then I can see that he still carries that little bit of
#
anger, which is again completely justified
#
I think both of us have also had this chat where I have told him that
#
at some point you have to let go of this anger, you can't sort of carry on
#
with that anger, but it happens to everybody
#
that yesterday, the day before yesterday, when we tweeted to Ishani
#
whoever comes in the alt news, we have been doing this
#
for many years, the colleague of ours
#
who has joined us for just over a year
#
she wrote an important story about the Kolkata rape case
#
so somebody came down and said that I am sure you will also enjoy being raped
#
and so it goes to a different extent
#
so then I called her and asked her how are you feeling
#
I said that I have to do something about this, she said no, I am okay
#
so me and Pratik employees or colleagues also get targeted
#
you are working for ISIS, you are working for Jihadi
#
you are amplifying, you are a toilet cleaner, multiple other things
#
which is why we don't encourage
#
them to do a time suite, sometimes it is important
#
even if they tweet, even if they are tagged, they get abused
#
especially there are people who say that they are bong
#
which is why they are biased
#
there are a lot of Bengalis on the team
#
you know what we Bengalis are like
#
tell me about the kind of people who work with you now that you mention it
#
because it is not a career option
#
it is not that somebody would go to climb some kind of ladder
#
but everyone who wants to work with you has to have a certain amount of commitment and resilience
#
so tell me a little bit about that
#
I am sure you also go through conflicting emotions where on the one hand
#
you want them to do brave fearless work etc
#
but on the other hand you also worry about them
#
because you made a choice to go through whatever you are going through
#
but you will also feel responsible for them
#
it is a boarding process
#
that first thing I specifically ask the question to
#
anyone I interview that you know that you are entering the dark side of the world
#
this is not the bright side of the world
#
because alt news has gained some fame
#
but the people associated with alt news have a certain reach
#
like on twitter everyone has 10-15 thousand followers
#
it is not necessary that other organizations
#
there they have that kind of following
#
individual journalists are more following than big fact checking websites
#
so there is a full briefing that look
#
you are entering the dark side of the world you will be dealing with hate speech
#
there are so many violent videos whether it is Gaza
#
whether it is everywhere
#
so it is a full briefing
#
so hate on social media is only one part of
#
what is challenging for a young person
#
I am in both of our 40s
#
someone who is born in the 2000s is in the organization
#
we came into this when we were already 35 that is when we started this
#
so there is a different level of maturity some level of maturity that we have already
#
I am not attempting to be ageist but
#
but your first introduction first job
#
that people who are working with the organization they are coming with
#
the sense of passion everyone is given
#
I know everyone has been offered jobs which are much higher pay and they get offered
#
all the time but they do not quit
#
they have stayed with the organization and as I was telling you earlier
#
during lunch that everyone who has quit
#
has gone for higher education to do more in life
#
I would not say from a career point of view it is not a good option
#
I think it is a good option to join
#
because you also working in such a thing
#
I actually agree and I will tell all my listeners if you are a young journalist go and work with these guys
#
the things that need to be learned
#
there is a lot to learn
#
we are not pushing people to do
#
there is no timeline they have time to think about it
#
so what does that time to think give time to think time to reflect means time to grow
#
because it is only when you think and reflect
#
in fact I also tell him that he does not give himself enough time
#
to reflect on things that you have to take a step back
#
and think and reflect because that gives you time to grow
#
as an individual there is so many
#
there is never a we will ask what is the story
#
sometimes we will push but it is not a deadline oriented
#
there is no there is a increment
#
if your salary is about this percentage then you will have
#
this percentage increment
#
but it is a fixed increment it is not a performance based
#
you will get an annual increment which is fixed
#
it is not performance based increment
#
so that allows a young person to
#
employee policies are also such that people get to grow
#
and that there is time to think there is time to reflect time
#
so which is why young people are by
#
obvious most of my colleagues are in that range between 20 to 30
#
and they are doing such great work is because I feel that they
#
have grown a lot you know since the time they join the organization they
#
grow very quickly because there is an opportunity to grow as an individual which is what
#
matters what I have learnt is that I have
#
grown you know you have to your understanding of the world defines what work you do
#
if you do not understand the world then you will do crappy work if you understand the world
#
then you will do better work and to understand the world you need
#
the luxury of time one of my colleague I remember she was an intern
#
she was an intern for 2-3 months
#
and then she was planning to join alt news
#
she was about to join and that is when I got arrested
#
Prateek was in Delhi to take care
#
about my legal things and then he was not online
#
he was supposed to join and then I was arrested
#
and then there were questions like where does alt news get funding from Pakistan or Dubai
#
and then everybody started questioning I mean I had a discussion
#
with her after I came back and he was like I was going to join
#
but you got arrested and then we had this discussion at home
#
my neighbors and relatives were like why do you have to join
#
it is problematic but then she had decided and she somehow convinced
#
my parents that I will join even after that
#
that was the dedication people had
#
I want to go back to your experience you know in the novel Kashi Ka Hasi
#
Kashinath Singh has these famous lines I will give my family friendly version of it
#
ki bhar mein jaye duniya hum bajaye harmoniya
#
often when I look at what is happening in the world I am like screw it I don't want to think about politics or what is happening
#
I will just play my harmonia and even you are a person who is
#
doing poetry like you said you started at early side all of that
#
were there times where you said why am I doing this especially when you got arrested
#
there is one place where you have spoken about how your son didn't go to school for a while
#
because he was very proud of telling everyone who his father is
#
and then you were arrested and you didn't send him to school for a while
#
so were there times where you doubted the whole enterprise where you thought that it will end in defeat
#
what is a point or you said no let's make our own life
#
I thought for my family let me
#
during this process did these doubts come about
#
especially when you got arrested and for the benefit of my listeners
#
if they haven't read about this I will have links on the show notes but Zubair in 2018
#
had posted a tweet which had an innocuous steal from a film
#
which was completely taken out of some random person filed an FIR
#
and you got arrested even though many people had tweeted that
#
just a completely ridiculous thing and years had passed in fact since that time
#
so what was it like for you how do you deal with
#
the self doubt how do you deal with the question
#
of is this even worth it did you go through those kind of dark moments
#
after my arrest when I was
#
visiting multiple other jails in UP I was taken to
#
Hathras, Sitapur and multiple other
#
there were some 7 FIAs against me in UP and Delhi all together
#
that is when maybe there was some benefit
#
the government is going to
#
attack you or put you inside jail
#
but then during that time we were also given these newspapers every day
#
the TV was running sometimes the news was not coming but
#
every time we had to meet someone
#
jail inmates were also very much interested in reading the newspapers
#
at that time and then on every first page
#
it was being published about me at that time what is happening in the cases
#
whether we got bail or not what are the arguments
#
initially when I went to jail
#
I remember the first day when I went to jail
#
the jail inmates already knew that Zubair is going to come in this particular cell
#
ward number 19 was mine so I was lucky to get
#
ward number 19 because there were not normal criminals
#
there were some financial frauds
#
minimum was 100 crores frauds
#
30-40-50-60 people were there but in each cell
#
there were 4-5 people, small ones but then 4-5 people were there
#
and all financial frauds I would say
#
political frauds or some FCR
#
or some CBI fraud they already knew that
#
as soon as I entered the cell I was told that
#
they will give me to a special jail I didn't know what was special jail
#
because I had in my mind that there will be 50-100 people in one cell
#
anyway that way I was a little lucky because it escalated
#
a lot of reports were started and when I entered jail there were
#
4 people inside the cell so my expectation
#
was different I thought it will be extreme
#
and then the way they treated me the jail inmates even the jailer
#
or whoever take me inside sorry take me inside
#
as soon as I went inside there was a person
#
tell me to put a mattress for Zubair
#
I was like why are you doing this Zubair don't take tension
#
I didn't want to speak to people then
#
as soon as I came in people were hesitant because they were already
#
reading newspapers about me
#
maybe he must have done something why arrest me for no reason
#
maybe he must have said something
#
later on they started asking me
#
within half an hour they started
#
saying that my father is from RSS there was a guy
#
his father was in RSS there was another guy
#
he was a Siv Sena leader or supporter
#
he was from Mumbai so 2-3 things were different
#
and then in half an hour they got to know me
#
I also started opening up what I do what happened
#
in 1-2 hours they realized that I was politically
#
trapped or something like that
#
and then we spoke for some time and after that
#
the jailers came to know
#
the jailers came to know
#
the jailers came to know
#
that there were some Kashmiris
#
inside the cell 7-11 you can go out of the cell
#
and be in the ward you can walk around
#
play cricket or whatever
#
during that time I was used to
#
speak to the other cells I was a little curious about what happened to them
#
why were they in jail all these interactions
#
in a day there were around 60 odd people
#
and people also came to know that I was trapped
#
so that is when I realized what people
#
would think about the impact
#
there were those who were doing good work
#
there was someone who wanted to meet you but didn't know that you won't be in jail
#
everybody has this access you can speak to your family members
#
every day for 10-15 minutes
#
I wasn't allowed to speak to them
#
if I wanted to speak to them I would come to the superintendent's room
#
and they would allow me to do it
#
there was a senior policeman
#
he asked me are you Zubair?
#
I loved what Alt News has been doing
#
if it wasn't here I would have taken a selfie
#
because the phone wasn't allowed
#
in jail number 4, that was the jail I was in
#
I had multiple wards, 1, 2, 3, 4, I had 19th ward
#
cell number 4 was in cell number 4
#
everybody could recognize me
#
even in jail there was a discussion
#
lucky for me there was a discussion
#
the police told me to be careful
#
but I had to go for some other reason
#
people were very nice to me
#
even the police were very nice to me
#
whatever we have been doing has been appreciated by
#
lots and lots of people
#
I was taken to multiple other places in UP
#
they also started appreciating me
#
one senior officer said I have been following you from 2014
#
I have been following Alt News since you started
#
he had come down to Tihar Jail to question me from UP
#
I talked to him with respect
#
the jailer said you have to stand up and answer
#
I know I did not receive a lot of calls
#
I logged in to my account
#
they thought our work is also getting affected
#
so many people are somehow
#
one way or the other affected
#
when Zubair can go for fact checking
#
we as journalists can also be jailed anytime soon
#
everybody had this question
#
what will he think after coming back
#
he did not say that to me but I could make out
#
he could not say it to me
#
because she knew I would not say it
#
she was waiting for my response
#
many activists came home
#
congratulating me for getting released
#
the things you have been doing is very important
#
they did not want to say
#
we do not expect you to stop this
#
it is like letting down
#
so many of them who have looked up to alt news
#
it is one of the reasons
#
I have come to Mumbai for the first time
#
I have taken photos and posted on social media
#
otherwise I do not meet people
#
this is the second time I am meeting Zubair
#
I still feel he is a great man
#
introvert, chilled out, cool
#
he has fire, iron, everything
#
what have you learnt about Zubair in all these years?
#
how has he changed and what have you learnt about him?
#
I have to think about it
#
we will come back to this
#
when he was arrested what was it like for you?
#
my complete focus was on the legal thing
#
every second of the day
#
it was quite a task for me and my mother
#
both of us were equally involved
#
there was an unannounced thing
#
nobody is going to represent Zubair
#
who will represent Zubair
#
he contacted an activist
#
he was from the BJP camp
#
he was recovering from leukemia
#
he could not live without AC
#
there was an order in favour of the Supreme Court
#
but the Hathras court was not acknowledging it
#
he was sweating till the Supreme Court copy of that order came
#
and then he got some relief
#
that was the first time he got relief
#
then the whole process between me and my mother was just figuring out
#
what is going to be the legal strategy
#
new things were unfolding every day
#
a new FIR was formed every day
#
he is making it a little simple
#
but I know the way they have gone through
#
my family were not related to this
#
they were the interface for my family
#
after an FIR against me in Delhi
#
they brought me home and sent me to JC
#
once I went to the judicial custody
#
why they did not allow me to speak on phone every day
#
is because they did not want the information to go out
#
they wanted me to take to Hathras
#
how would I inform my lawyer
#
they might arrest him any time soon
#
he was completely off social media
#
he did not have access to the phone
#
I was accessing the world only through TOR
#
and then he had to arrange
#
for my lawyer, surety, bond
#
if I get an FIR in Hathras
#
I will have to arrange somebody locally
#
how can we arrange locally
#
at the right time they would reach out to lawyers
#
I remember one guy who has not even seen me
#
that was the way they all did it
#
taking care of my family
#
my mom, dad, aunty, Pratik
#
it cannot be explained the way they stood
#
if aunty and Pratik were not there
#
it would have shifted to another jail
#
is because people like Pratik, aunty, Vrinda
#
totally treated them the way they
#
did it give you second thoughts during this time
#
that he is not just your colleague and co-founder, he is also your very close friend
#
and he is going through so much, his family is going through so much
#
there is uncertainty everywhere, even you are kind of worried about being the next moment
#
I can just imagine a riot of emotions
#
I was also editing stories at that point of time
#
we were not publishing at the same pace
#
but stories were still going out
#
but as far as doing this work
#
it is not that I have not had self-doubt but not arising from this place
#
I think self-doubt is important because when you have self-doubt
#
then you try to resolve that doubt, you try to answer questions and then your conviction
#
actually becomes greater than when it was
#
before, that is if you are able to address that doubt
#
I think self-doubt is a very important part of living
#
we knew this from the beginning, it is not that we talked about this before
#
that this can happen, even today we know that this can happen
#
partly because, again I would give the credit
#
to my parents, they told me from the beginning
#
that if you want to work, then do it with the preparation
#
it is not that, I remember that
#
till then there was no case of Alt News, this is from 2018
#
asked me to talk to the staff
#
and I said that till now there is no case on Alt News
#
as soon as the talk ended, I took out my phone and saw a defamation case
#
so you were guilty of disinformation during the talk
#
so I saw a defamation case
#
I forget what article it was
#
some article, and I was flying home
#
I was flying home the same day and I was talking to my mother
#
should we take down the article, my mother is like you come home first, then we will talk about it
#
then at the door, when she opened the door, she is like I am ashamed of you
#
that you are even thinking about taking down the article
#
I think, now I think some of that has rubbed on me
#
because now she is 7 years old
#
now she is 70 plus and I think my mother has become
#
she has always been a worry, but she has become slightly soft
#
even though she said that we have to take down the article, there is a defamation case going on
#
so the demand, I won't go into details, but the demand from the opposite side was to take down the article
#
so this time I am like no, we will not take down the article
#
at one point she is like, should we take down the article
#
I said no, not from a point, she was talking more from a logistic
#
point of view, this legal thing will drag on
#
but yeah, I remember coming that
#
evening and first thing my mother said, I am ashamed of you that you are
#
thinking about taking down the article, so it has come
#
from that, so when he was in jail, there was not even one second
#
when I thought that, oh we should not continue this work, yeah
#
but of course it is a different experience, he was in the jail, he was going through that, I was outside
#
so these are completely different experiences, completely different place
#
if it was the opposite, there would have been an opposite reaction, if I was inside
#
I would have thought that I should not do this, you don't know, you don't know where the mind takes you
#
but no, not at that point in time
#
otherwise there has been self-doubt in other forms
#
a society that is just going down
#
and then at some point, it is always
#
you always question, okay we are doing it, there is some impact, why are we doing it
#
live in a hill somewhere and you know, why do we have to
#
worry about the world, because all
#
the batch mates of engineering, they are in so many
#
places, I am not saying that I would have been happy, I left that world to come to this
#
world, I am not saying that I would have been happy there, but at some point you
#
I have lived in the US for 3 years, I have lived in Vietnam for 3 years and at that point of my world
#
view was different, I have to travel, I have to do this, this was in my 20s
#
so sometimes you are like, oh it was a good life, we were travelling, we were chilling
#
I lived in Vietnam for 3 years, I saw all the South East Asian countries
#
drinking alcohol, doing this and that
#
so sometimes there is a thought which comes, why not take a
#
step back, why struggle so much, but that is
#
it comes, it is for a short time and then it goes away
#
This had come to me during this, which is why it took a break of say 1 month
#
we had, Palestine and Israel
#
not about the violence as such, but the way
#
the people were justifying across the world
#
that was a little disturbing, how much will you do and what will you do
#
at the end of the day, if there is a party, everybody is supporting
#
the way it is happening, that was a little bit, which is why
#
since then, till today, I don't, I mean there is something about Palestine
#
I can't even see that, like I scroll up, I don't even want to see that
#
so that happened. So for my next question I want both of you to talk
#
about the same thing, which is Pratik's mom, because I find this
#
extraordinary that she opened the door and she said, I am ashamed of you, you could even
#
think of taking it down and I am like, my god, and you know
#
even in our last episode you spoke a little bit about her, but I want you to speak a little bit more about her
#
because she is 70, her entire journey in a sense has been a journey
#
of struggle, she has been with your dad, who has been such a remarkable person and other guests from the
#
show have spoken about him highly, I think off the record
#
if I remember correctly, but very very highly, just one of the most respected people
#
of his time, but someone who had to struggle throughout, and she struggled with him
#
and now she is on this journey with you, not just struggling with you, but in a sense
#
also your mentor and also your strength and the bedrock of Alt News and all of that
#
so I would like both of you to talk about her a bit, why don't you
#
go first, because you have known her longer. So me and my mom are very different people
#
we fight a lot, he has been witness to all the fights, we have different
#
approaches to life, but
#
she is a fighter, you know, she
#
we are saying at the age of 40, should we give up or whatever
#
whatever those thoughts, but she is 70, she has no reason to
#
she has a pension, she has worked for 35 years in a scientific institution
#
she has a pension, she has her own house, she has no reason
#
to do this, I don't have any savings, so if I start working tomorrow
#
I will have to find another job, I don't have any savings
#
but she doesn't have that, she has a savings
#
she has a pension, she has a home, she has
#
people who she can depend on, all of that, so for her
#
she is doing this purely because she, it is purely
#
because she recognizes the social need, otherwise she has no
#
the two of us, the other thing is that as a family
#
when you work together, the differences really sort of get amplified
#
you know, I work in a different, I have a different style of working, she has a different
#
style of working and there is truly a lot of friction between us
#
What are the areas of friction? Many many things, she
#
she has worked in one job for 35 years and she has worked
#
in a government organization, so she
#
knows of one way of dealing with things, I have worked all over the world
#
in, mostly in startups, it is a very very different
#
thought, you know thought, so it is mostly
#
how the organization should work, that is where the conflict is, that how
#
the organization has to work, what has to be done, so
#
it is more like, you know, and from that
#
we fight a lot, we fight a lot, so
#
but at the same point in time, despite everything
#
all of that, if there is
#
if there is an external entity who is trying to
#
sort of quote unquote attack, then we unify, then it is
#
a common thing, and so for example
#
and her conservatism in the way she approaches
#
organization making, what we have also learned is organization making
#
how do you make an organization, and I think it is a wonderful
#
experience of organization making, she has a conservative
#
approach towards organization making, that I feel is impeding
#
what I want, wish to get from the organization, so
#
again there is a push back, but
#
she has ensured, where do all the organizations
#
get targeted, in the finances, most of the organizations get
#
targeted in the finances, you have made a small mistake somewhere,
#
they will target you, so for example the decision that
#
not a single pie should come into any one of accounts, we don't take any cash, we
#
never take cash, right, everything, everything
#
and thankfully we have a very good chartered accountant as well, he is
#
also as picky as my mother, both are very picky and
#
drive us crazy, but that has ensured
#
are so clean, that we can't say anything from there, so what can we do
#
later, why, if had, let's say
#
what was the allegation that we got money from Pakistan, we couldn't prove it,
#
if we show from somewhere that yes we have made a mistake,
#
very difficult to defend ourselves, but the
#
support that we also get or Zubair got, where he was trending worldwide
#
that I support Zubair, is because of the knowledge that
#
these people have done so much, but they couldn't find anything, what could they find,
#
they couldn't find anything, so that books being clean
#
is the first step of organization making, if you are
#
working under an authoritarian government, that is the first step, that
#
you financially, it's not that you want to do
#
something wrong, but the compliances
#
especially the compliances in India, the compliances for non-profits
#
are so complicated, that you have made a mistake, but
#
it is so rigorous, it's not just that editorial process
#
is rigorous, financial process is maybe more
#
rigorous, more rigorous are financial processes,
#
so she has ensured that, and
#
that rigor also, that's where the conflict comes, because
#
rigor means, just the way, you know, he is very often upset with me
#
that I am not letting an article go, he said that the article should go,
#
I said no, the article should not go, and it should be in this, because
#
going out later, so that rigor brings in
#
also brings in a sense of friction, and it is a continuous
#
turn, it is an everyday thing, that you have to do this, you have to do that,
#
WhatsApp message has come, that
#
as you were talking, I saw that we need to speak over WhatsApp call,
#
Mom's message has just come, so
#
with my father, for example, whatever phone call
#
analysis was done, it was my mother who did the
#
phone call analysis, in fake encounters, it was my mother who did the phone call analysis,
#
because she had the patience to sit and do that, my father, even though he
#
did his PhD in plasma physics, but he quit this stream of science, became
#
a lawyer, because he was kicked out, but because she worked in a scientific
#
institution for 35 years, that discipline of sitting down
#
and doing something till completion, she had that discipline, and she
#
still has that discipline, so all of that matters a lot,
#
or of course, ideologically,
#
I was, as I was saying, that everyone was going to RSS Shaka, but I was not allowed to go,
#
my mother did not let me go, when I wanted to
#
go for engineering, my father was like, why are you sending him away,
#
you let him be in Gujarat, and my mother is like, no, no, he has to get out of home, he has to get
#
out of home, so that he learns what it is like to be out of home, and that has changed my
#
life, I went to engineering, first day in ragging, I got beaten up so much,
#
like, how to live on the outside, on your own,
#
that is necessary, and she ensured that
#
I go out of the house, and then one step went to another,
#
so when I was doing engineering, I am like, okay, I am not going to
#
work for an Infosys Wipro, I want to work in a Chota organization,
#
so in my 8th sem, there was this organization called
#
Day Begins Engineering, Private Limited, and I was working there as my
#
final year project, and it was a campus interview,
#
I was not sitting anywhere, my mother was like, what are you doing, you will not get a job, one day
#
I went to the manager, I told my mother, I don't want to work in any of these
#
organizations, but one day I went to this manager in Day Begins Engineering, his name was
#
Natraj, and he said, give me a job, I am not going to work anywhere, I only want to work here,
#
and so he was like, okay, then take a job,
#
and so then one startup to another startup to another startup,
#
so the, and before that,
#
there is this wonderful organization in Bangalore,
#
it is called Deep Root Engineering, Private Limited, it is run by a very close friend of mine, Abha,
#
so in the 4th-5th semester, I worked there,
#
so then by that, I have worked in so many startups,
#
that when Alt News ka bananika, I had already worked in so many startups,
#
so I have done everything from looking for office space,
#
to buying furniture, to all of that, so that process had already been done,
#
it is based on a design that I have worked in a previous organization,
#
where I sat with someone and designed the furniture and table,
#
that it is, you know, we are looking at each other,
#
there is privacy, but we are looking at each other, you can't look at each other's screen, but you are looking at
#
each other, because for me, privacy was very important that nobody looks into my screen,
#
anyway, a lot of all of that.
#
Talking about mothers, yes,
#
as much as was done in the editor release, it was done in the same way in finance,
#
for example, there is a small example,
#
somebody had, I think, given 1 lakh rupees donation,
#
and they have not given a PAN card,
#
they are not Indian citizens, as soon as Indian students found out,
#
they returned it back, and in between, somebody had donated,
#
and maybe they didn't even give a PAN card, if I remember correctly,
#
we have returned a lot of money, just because they did not give enough proof,
#
we can still take it as an anonymous donation,
#
and then apart from that, maintaining the office at this age,
#
it is usually complete,
#
and she ignores my auntie's call,
#
she tells me to call Bantu,
#
she is always, if articles are not being published,
#
it is not just that she is engaged in administration,
#
it has been two days, only two articles have been published,
#
what people are doing, she keeps pushing us,
#
and also whenever we go to her house,
#
everybody is invited to her house,
#
if somebody goes, one day, two days, ten days, I can keep as much as I want,
#
and every day, like mother's hand food,
#
I have never seen that, I think, people who visit
#
Ahmedabad, especially activists or journalists, they stay at Prateek's place,
#
obviously that is because of his mom,
#
and she is also involved in protests,
#
there are some protests in Gujarat,
#
where they keep doing administration work,
#
they keep pushing us, if somebody attacks us on Twitter,
#
then she would counter him.
#
Let me tell you a story, this was before Alt News,
#
Una rally was over, and there were more protests happening
#
in Ahmedabad, and there was no protest permission,
#
this was happening near a place called Vastrapur lake,
#
and there was no protest permission, so the police came and
#
started to detain after a while, and I was asked not to get
#
detained, so whenever you go out to protest, some people are asked not to get
#
detained, again all of this is training since the childhood, my childhood photos are
#
in protest, so I was asked not to get detained,
#
because someone has to stay out, because they have to bring other people out,
#
so I was asked not to get detained, so I was standing outside,
#
and my mother was getting detained,
#
then the police person on walkie talkie was saying that
#
Nirjai Sinha was detained,
#
announcing that the main person has been detained, and
#
so many times my parents have gotten detained,
#
it used to seem regular, but when you, you know,
#
earlier people didn't know the difference between detained and arrested,
#
but all of the, you know, my
#
father's first photo, if you search it is behind a police van,
#
and his hand is like that, that is the first photo on
#
Google images, so for me it's
#
been about the journey, about being in that family,
#
and I am, you know, a lot of, a lot of what I am,
#
yes, I've had my personal journey as well, I have, you know, but
#
my father has also been a great inspiration for me,
#
it's about being in that family and learning, you know,
#
what it is to have love in the family, but at the same point in
#
time, you know, what it is not to become bitter about the
#
outside world, you know, that love is very important, you know,
#
and I think that is, you know, the relationship
#
that I saw between my parents,
#
I think that is very, very, that was something very precious, so actually what you value
#
about your parents is very different from what the outside world
#
sees them at, you know, because I have seen them as an activist, all of that, yes, of course,
#
very good, but what I value more is
#
what the relationship they shared and all of that.
#
Yeah, in the last episode, you also spoke movingly about 2014 when your dad was in his
#
last months, what you called a transfer of knowledge through Truth of Gujarat and
#
all of that, and again, I'm just thinking circumstances, boss, if you didn't have
#
that mother, if you went to that RSS Shaka, if you, you know, followed
#
the normal career path, we wouldn't have heard of you, you would be doing something.
#
But everybody's life is that, it is a function of
#
circumstances, of where you were, what you do, your social,
#
you know. What do you think is core to you, independent of
#
all of this, independent of circumstances, like is it a certain way of thinking,
#
is it a stubbornness, is it an analytical mind, like
#
what is it that is absolutely core to you, which no matter what happened, it would always
#
be you? Very difficult to say that, I don't
#
think, I feel I have changed so much. For example,
#
when I was in my twenties, I was like, you know, it should be a free
#
was part of the aim of life.
#
I don't think there is, it's a moving
#
You know, my interests have changed. For example,
#
I can definitely say that the last two years, two, three years have all
#
been about thinking about why, what is happening, why is it
#
happening. I have spent a lot of time trying to think about the
#
basics of what constitutes a human
#
mind and why, you know, why is it reacting
#
in certain ways. So, I don't
#
think there is one such core, at least if there is one, then I have not recognized it.
#
So, my next question is also about how
#
the sort of, the things that you do,
#
the content that you consume, the books that you read, change because of the work that you
#
do, because the work that you do is always going to kind of affect that. And
#
in this particular case, like one of the things which many people have remarked about you,
#
is that whenever some news breaks, you will always be ready
#
with screenshots and context and this and that.
#
So, how has this changed what you read?
#
Because I would imagine that you would be reading a lot more
#
for context on the current world in the current times. You
#
mentioned how you are interested in how people think you would be reading a lot more on that, I am guessing.
#
And secondly, what are your sort of knowledge management
#
systems to handle all the information that you take in?
#
Because now we are living in a time where absolutely anything could be useful at any point.
#
You simply don't know. For example, one common thing,
#
one common weapon everybody on all sides uses is screenshots.
#
So, how do you look at information
#
and how do you look at your knowledge management and
#
I think, there is no such thing as knowledge management.
#
It is, most of the debunking we read up
#
on need basis. For example, if Nayana Modi says that
#
Jawaharlal Nehru never visited Bhagat Singh in jail,
#
we will read up. We have no previous knowledge about the issue.
#
We will look at it and then we will read up and we will find what it is.
#
And of course, because let's say if you are in a speech,
#
if Mr. Modi is saying this, then
#
it stands out that he made this claim
#
and stands out and then we will look it up and we will find what there is.
#
We also get clues from social media. It is not necessarily our
#
internal knowledge. So, somebody will say on social media, oh, this is not false.
#
But they will just say this is not true.
#
Then we will dig more. Someone has said
#
who has a certain, seemingly has a certain authority
#
and they have said that, oh, this is not true. So, then when did, if it is not true, then what is
#
the truth? So, then we will start digging and then we, so for example, if it is historical,
#
then Indian Express has an archive.
#
If you go to google.com slash newspapers, you can find the Indian Express archive
#
which goes on forever. It is a wonderful resource. So, some of our
#
historical stories are purely based on the Indian Express archive.
#
So, then we will look it up. We will, you know, we will go to books.google.com
#
and we will look up books. That is how
#
we found, we did, remember we did an article earlier, the chest one.
#
Chest food. The one with Nostradamus.
#
So, once this, what, this French guy
#
who lives in, who lives in India, Aurobindo, forget, I forget
#
his name. So, he once said that from, from
#
Nostradamus chest, you know, something has come out which was, which says
#
Narendra Modum, something, something.
#
A person is going, he is going to be born, whose name is Narendra Modum, something like that.
#
In Sanskrit. So, we searched
#
books.google.com and we saw that he has written five books.
#
Same, you know. For Vajpayee.
#
Yes, once written for Vajpayee, once written for Advani. So, we wrote
#
an article about him. You know, depending on who the leader
#
is, the prophecy, you know, what comes out of Nostradamus is,
#
trunk very conveniently keeps changing. And that was reported in multiple news
#
channels. No, he wrote an article on Times of India.
#
And then Times of India, when we put out an article, he, they converted a piece
#
which was not satirical.
#
so then we know where to look for information. It is not that we already
#
possess that knowledge or possess that information. But, for example,
#
if it's historical, then we look up books.google.com, we look up here, we look
#
up there. So, the skill is where to
#
look, where to look up information quickly, what to look
#
up or what are the tools. So, for example, if I want to look
#
pib.nic.in, then I will do some
#
keyword space site colon, now it has become pib.gov.in.
#
So, keyword space site colon pib.gov.in
#
because that is a far more effective search engine than going to pib.gov.in
#
and searching it. So, it is about how to look up information effectively
#
and not actually possessing information. What I read
#
is actually very different. My, most of my reading is tech reading. I
#
keep, I keep myself updated with the world of, you know,
#
so, for example, I still write some code. I'm attempting to write
#
code using open GPT, sorry,
#
chat GPT has open sourced an algorithm which is called Whisper, which is a completely
#
offline speech to text,
#
it has a speech to text model. So, I'm trying to write a code
#
something around that. So, and my reading is about tech and all of
#
that. So, it is not necessarily that I'm reading and you have to get
#
out of this space, you have to read something else, you know.
#
So, most of my reading is tech reading actually.
#
Even in my case, like, I hardly get time to read or maybe
#
I don't know, not the right word to say, I
#
have not been reading. It's just that I'm online most of the time.
#
As long as I'm awake, I'll have my phone with me. Is it addicted?
#
Yes, we can say addicted. But is it scrolling, scrolling, swiping, swiping?
#
Or is it going into rabbit holes and rabbit holes? Yes, yes, yes. It's not like
#
watching a video or scrolling, not like Instagram
#
YouTube videos, not all that. It's about searching for misinformation, most of
#
the time. And there are accounts who
#
regularly put out misinformation.
#
I try to see if it is true through that or maybe I have to search
#
when it was said, what it was said. I try to reach out to people. For example, in Bangladesh
#
there was a lot of misinformation half late, so I try to reach out to people.
#
So, that happens a lot in my engagement. Reading as such books,
#
no. Somehow, since childhood I'm not introduced to this.
#
I don't know, this is my bad day. I've not done that.
#
Even now, if people give me books, I'm
#
somehow not used to reading books. By the way, let me warn
#
you that at the end of this episode, I'll ask both of you to speak a little bit about each other, so
#
your subconscious minds can start working on that. But before that, another
#
question on the journey that you've been on with AltNews, that in a couple of ways,
#
you've become both, your focus has had to become both
#
sharper and broader. Sharper in the sense that if you are
#
busting misinformation, I'm guessing that you have become much better
#
at it and gone deeper into it. But also broader, in the sense
#
that the ambit has gone beyond misinformation. Now you're thinking about why does it
#
spread, what is the human mind like, why do we believe such shit. So that
#
is one domain, both sharper and broader. And another domain is
#
that at one level, the ambit is, let us make
#
AltNews as effective as possible. Let's do the best job we can. And therefore, that is
#
sharper. But also broader, because you'll also be thinking about that
#
beyond AltNews, how do we fight misinformation in general? This is a
#
social problem. What are the ways in which this can be solved?
#
These are like, I'm bringing a lot of kind of issues together, but
#
if we take, for example, the second dimension of it first,
#
that at one level, you're working on making AltNews the best
#
organization, it can be. But at another level, there are
#
questions of, say, scale. Like, do you think of scale?
#
Do you think of sort of putting processes and systems
#
in place and then hiring more people, if that is possible? Do you think of crowd-sourcing
#
stuff, if that is possible, with a level of rigor added
#
to the process? And beyond that, if you just step aside
#
from AltNews, that within this whole ecosystem of people who
#
are concerned about misinformation and they are fighting it, at one level it is
#
other organizations like BoomLive and all coming, and they're also doing the kind of
#
work you're doing. But something more is needed, something systemic is needed. Every
#
publication itself internally should have ways to
#
handle this. Like the New Yorker has a legendary fact-checking department, for example.
#
So on this larger landscape of finding
#
misinformation, what are your thoughts? What would you like to do? Earlier you spoke
#
and in our last episode you spoke about the importance of education.
#
You know, that is not just about ki achha fake news aaya, hamne bus kiya.
#
That's like a whack-a-mole kind of game and it's not really effective. Something fundamental
#
needs to change in the way that people approach information
#
and in building a skeptical attitude. So what
#
has your journey in thinking about that been like? So this is a constant
#
thought ki what else needs to be done. So journalism
#
is something we do. We also in between
#
made an app. Now it is not functional, but it was one of the
#
kind of an app jaha video da loghe to
#
if it is already fact-checked without any human involvement it will give
#
you a fact-check. Within seconds. Within seconds. Within seconds it will
#
give you that. Now it is going, it needs some work. It is broken at this
#
point in time. So you know, again
#
as I said earlier that the issue
#
there is an issue. So jahe ho journalism ho activism ho technology ho
#
and then slowly the realization that this has to be
#
corrected at a foundational level. The day-to-day firefighting
#
is extremely important, but at the same point in time
#
the system is so infinitely broken
#
that for example when the issue of AIDS
#
or tuberculosis or the question of ham do hamare do
#
you know there was a public education system
#
there was a time when I recall there was a time when there was so much
#
care about AIDS and then there was a
#
huge awareness campaign in
#
bastis, mahalas on TV about usage of
#
contraceptives and all of that and that did work.
#
So we have seen through our childhood that there have been
#
unfortunately the government of the day does not do any of such
#
campaigns you know any of such public service announcements
#
campaigns etc. But we have seen campaigns that have that were
#
used to deal with issues which were systemic
#
in nature which was social in nature. So then that we have to
#
that it has to come to that that we have to deal with it in education
#
we have to deal with it in
#
a very popular sort of media
#
for example the movie which is being made right now, we have not seen it
#
I was told it was very good.
#
We have not seen it, but we have to deal with it in multiple places
#
and where we have the skill, we will definitely intervene
#
So media literacy work is
#
something that we look at very seriously, we have gone to multiple universities
#
and we are thinking more about it
#
about how to execute it at school levels and all of that
#
what do you sort of think about the future of it
#
It's obviously a non-profit so you don't have the same kind of ambitions
#
for it that you would have of a startup. At another level I think you guys
#
would be delighted if there was no need for alt news at all which means misinformation
#
is solved. But that is obviously not going to happen
#
anytime soon, ever actually. So how do you then think
#
about the organization? Like right now the situation
#
would be that the DNA of the organization is really the three of you, the two of you
#
and Narsheri ji. And the values and the purpose emanates from there
#
But eventually do you see the organization getting better
#
How do you think of it in terms of scale, of getting others involved
#
And then do you need to think of sort of laying the DNA
#
down, publications will often have
#
their style guides, economist style guide is very famous, etc
#
I can easily see a sort of fact checking version of that
#
or even beyond that because you guys do so much more than fact checking so I shouldn't
#
continue that caricature
#
So what are sort of your thoughts now when you think about
#
the organization, like in a sense when Zubair was arrested
#
God forbid had you also gotten arrested and both of you were there
#
Ideally you want an organization that still runs
#
that story still come out. So what's your journey been
#
in thinking about this? So we've been thinking about it and at some point
#
may want to do something else. It is not necessary that we continue doing this
#
for the rest of our lives. At some point of time the two of us may want to do
#
something else. So for example recently we started
#
sort of taking this one time donation which is based on our popularity
#
We are like we need to have recurring donations. So it doesn't matter what it is
#
recurring has a different thought process
#
I feel that we have not done that yet but we have to
#
document what we do, how we do
#
how to approach different stories
#
We have to document it and again nothing will be just
#
internal. If we document it then we copy left and it will be for the world at large
#
This is how, this is, I also
#
I was telling him recently that I want to start making some videos where I want to talk
#
about what it takes to make an organization
#
So I feel that it is not just about longevity
#
of the organization but longevity of
#
the cause that there is knowledge
#
that we have gained and even if it, Altenews can't
#
I am hoping and I wish that Altenews will continue but whatever we have learned
#
somebody else should be able to take it forward even if it is not
#
within the ambit of Altenews. So how do you make an organization? How do you
#
ensure that it runs? What should be the principles of
#
the organization? And I really
#
hope that in the next 2-3 years we are
#
able to document this and put it out that
#
that this is, this is what we do, these are the processes
#
this is how we thought through it, you know. All of these
#
things which we are talking about for such a long time, I feel
#
that there should be a lot of document that is why
#
this decision was taken, this thought process was taken, how, what decision making
#
how, there is no one who educates
#
we have not learned this through education, we have learned this on the job but
#
I feel that if it is there as a
#
material then it will benefit many people. So
#
I want to repeat it is not just about longevity of Altenews
#
yes that is of, you know, that is definitely what you
#
would want that let us say 3-4 years down the line when
#
whatever or 15 years down the line, I do not know, at some point when
#
we feel that we do not want to continue anymore
#
there is enough material and enough organizational strength
#
the core of the organization has to be strong
#
enough that it continues whether we are there or we are not there
#
some of it is already there, it is not there, it is not there, things go on
#
even when the two of us are busy and things like that
#
but a lot more of that needs to happen. And also about
#
the expansion of the team, you mentioned
#
the problem also is because we are a small team, when we started off
#
we were 2 and then 3 and then it was 10 then now it is
#
probably 15-16, but we could not
#
go beyond, there are a lot of people who ask us why not have a fact checking website in
#
different languages like Marathi, Kannada, Tamil, Telugu and all that
#
but one of the reasons is because we do not have
#
as an organization we run on donations and we have certain donations
#
and off late also is because people are scared to donate
#
to people like alt news and maybe because there is
#
not much reach on social media which our donation videos go
#
or our donation appeals, which is why we also started off with
#
which is now taken off, but I just hope we are able to scale
#
as in we are able to have more and more people start
#
doing more videos so that the reach is more, hopefully in different
#
languages going forward. Good time for a
#
donation appeal in that case that if someone listening to this wants to donate
#
what is the URL, where should they go etc.
#
We are running a campaign where we are saying that we are looking for
#
3000 patrons who will give us 500 rupees
#
every month for the next 12 months, hopefully for a long long time
#
to come and if you want to become a patron then go to
#
go.altnews.in slash donate 500
#
go.altnews.in slash donate 500
#
alternatively you can go to altnews.in slash donate and
#
make a one time donation, make a recurring donation which if you want to make a
#
5000 rupee recurring donation then please do that as well.
#
But yeah these are the present
#
URL for this campaign is go.altnews.in slash donate
#
So another question I have is about I think
#
what seems to me from the outside to be the hardest part of the misinformation
#
business which is cultural tropes that have been there
#
forever. You know it is not like misinformation created around
#
a particular event that you have to riot somewhere, you have shown
#
a video from somewhere else etc. But tropes that have just been there in
#
the culture forever. For example in the last few years people will show this video
#
of Muslim cooks who are blowing something and they will say oh they are spitting. It's a very
#
persistent trope. You can bust it once, you can bust it twice but the trope has become
#
a great part of the culture, it will just keep repeating. Similarly another trope
#
I am sick of hearing about is the birth rate of Muslims and how population will
#
cross and all. Now it's complete nonsense but chalta raita hai for the years.
#
So what do you think about the persistence
#
of these tropes and does the fact that they are
#
so persistent indicate at some level that people don't care that they are false?
#
It just validates their view of the world and therefore they will
#
believe whether it's false or not, it doesn't matter. No I don't think
#
it comes from that place. For example if you are blowing on a piece of wood then it is
#
not something that you usually see. You are not
#
attempting to spit on it but it is not a popular
#
practice to blow on a food. It is a ritual
#
and then you are not used to seeing that.
#
So then that is the thought. Once somebody puts that thought into your head
#
once they are spitting on the food then that thought remains.
#
So that is how tropes persist. But what was your question?
#
So my question was that how does one fight those and can they even be fought
#
because tropes like for example Muslim birth rate being higher.
#
Now birth rates are just really linked to class
#
in terms of incomes. Poorer people just have more kids, Muslims just happen to be
#
poorer which is the way it is. But once you control for income there is absolutely
#
no difference in birth rates.
#
And my sense is that no matter how many times you bust this and tell people this
#
like I have literally explained this to someone for the third time
#
before realizing that I have told this guy the same thing two times before
#
and it's not that he is forgotten
#
or he is stupid. He doesn't want to be corrected. I mean this is what he wants to
#
believe. So those are particularly
#
harder kinds of misinformation to fight because it's not
#
about the truth there. It's about wanting to believe something and it's about narratives.
#
I will give you another example.
#
You know someone recently around 2024 elections someone asked me
#
what is the difference between 2024 election and 2019 election in terms
#
of misinformation. Now my response to that was that
#
2024 elections the base of what
#
is considered to be true has changed. That is
#
now there are laws around love jihad. In 2019 there weren't laws around love jihad.
#
Right now every mainstream media article if
#
an interfaith couple they fight the article
#
headline starts with love jihad colon. What was love jihad originally
#
supposed to be? It was the claim that
#
Hindu women are being married
#
or are being ensnared and being converted. But
#
so that was a you know a
#
false conspiracy theory. But right now there is a domestic dispute
#
between interfaith couple. The article starts with love
#
space jihad colon. So you know when you do that then you are
#
the place from where you why is hate speech more
#
now. Because there are certain things which now have
#
established itself as truth. Whether it is truth or not they have established
#
itself as truth. So now your truth is
#
starting from another level where there is already a layer of
#
falsity and is starting from that level. So then
#
it becomes much more easy to go into
#
and go into the space of hate speech. How do you go into
#
a speech of hate speech? When you already relegated a community
#
to saying that oh that they
#
deserve this too. What is hate speech? Hate speech is essentially then saying that oh
#
why are they voting? They should not be allowed to vote. Why do they have jobs? They should not have jobs. Why
#
to the point of asking for killing. Right? That is
#
the level of hate speech. But what is the entry point of hate speech? When does
#
when is it okay for the society to
#
have a lot of hate speech and not react to it. There was a time when we
#
used to react to hate speech. There was a time when we used to react to lynchings.
#
How has it been normalized? It has been normalized because our
#
as a society our truth is at a different level now where certain
#
things are considered to be true. So then you can easily go into hate speech
#
because it is justified to say that. So
#
I do not have an answer as to how to fight
#
tropes. Again I feel that all of this is not
#
this needs a much larger approach, educational approach where
#
maybe it is not possible to fix it in one generation.
#
Maybe you do not try to fix it in one generation. When the next generation comes
#
and when they have a certain base skill
#
as to how to deal with knowledge maybe it gets fixed that way. I do not know.
#
I do not know the answer to that. But I certainly feel that
#
in this present generation those things cannot be fixed.
#
You said earlier that the kind of
#
fake news that comes today is still the same as what used to come in the sense
#
that the mode is the same. It is videos taken from one place
#
and you will say that this happened here etc. But at the same time
#
we are entering an era where AI, deepfakes, they just increase the
#
capacity of creating fake news,
#
of weaponizing narratives etc. So have you seen any of it
#
already? How bad do you think it can get?
#
Like if you look ahead 10 years into the future, what is the best
#
case scenario? What is the worst case scenario? The best case scenario of course is that
#
you guys have it under control but the worst case scenario is that it simply becomes impossible
#
to fight. Just yesterday there was an article about how Trump has posted some
#
AI generated images. So in
#
these US elections we are seeing that increased use of
#
it is definitely going to be an issue. But
#
in 2024 elections and in Indian elections
#
we did not see it and my understanding
#
of that as to why we did not see it is because
#
misinformation exists in a context. There is no
#
misinformation cannot be sans context. The context can be multiple
#
things. For example, if Rahul Gandhi is on a podium with people behind him
#
and a clip video shows him saying
#
aloo se sona ban raha hai. Now that whole
#
thing that he is on a podium, there are people around him and he is at a mic
#
and he is saying this. Now let's
#
say, can deepfake create that at this point of view? Can an AI
#
generated thing create this whole thing that this whole
#
what I just described? I am saying till the
#
time AI is not able to create those things, I don't think
#
AI misinformation will be
#
that effective. AI is affecting in many other ways. See India is also a
#
country that doesn't read much. Literacy rates are low so we are consuming
#
multimedia. Now AI content, text
#
generation in AI is already very strong. So for example, in the US
#
there is a lot of misinformation in text. Most of the anti-vaccine
#
misinformation came through text in websites.
#
There are some in videos and images also but if you look at India, how many
#
websites can you name except for 2, 3 or
#
maybe 4, 5 which are text based websites and are source
#
of misinformation. They are prominent 3, 4, 5. Usse zyada nahi hai.
#
Kyonki and ek time pe tha kyonki
#
Facebook used to send traffic, they used to make money
#
as soon as they saw that there is no financial viability, those websites have vanished
#
and they have all shifted to video.
#
So one thing that I am saying is that AI generated content
#
is problematic. For example, online frauds me
#
ho raha hai. Abhi jaise Twitter pe ek iKaveri bolke account hai.
#
She got a call about a month or two
#
months ago saying that your daughter has been caught or your son, I think daughter
#
has been caught police and found to have drugs and
#
she has agreed to do some kind of, you know, you have to send so much money.
#
So she asked AI, I want to speak with
#
my daughter and they played a deep fake audio of her
#
daughter which sounded exactly like her. Did you come across this?
#
I missed it, I know who AI Kaveri is, I follow her but I missed
#
this my god. They played a deep fake audio which sounded exactly like her daughter but
#
thankfully she was not convinced and she was like, no I want to talk to my daughter again
#
then they cut the call because they had only created that
#
much of the deep fake audio. So in these spaces
#
they deep faked the voice of a CEO
#
and called the assistant and got them to make a huge money
#
transfer. So those things are happening. So frauds are definitely happening
#
using AI generated, jobs are going, you know, certain jobs which are AI
#
generated content but again I feel that there is a limit to it. For example, Hindustan
#
I think HT, who published an article recently? Someone
#
Hindustan Times published an article on the 30th anniversary
#
of the World Cup win and it
#
was an AI generated article which was evident because they named a player who did not
#
So those issues will be there, that is
#
because AI will create its own disinformation
#
but AI generated disinformation, AI will create its own disinformation
#
but AI generated disinformation unless they can
#
create it with context. I feel that it
#
will happen. I am not saying that it will not happen.
#
It's not happening now. At least not in India. So for example, if you get
#
Rahul Gandhi to say something or Arvind Kejriwal or Modi to say something in a rally
#
let's say with that full context
#
still will be able to debunk it. I actually feel that
#
the AI from whatever I have been delving
#
into it and have gone fairly deep is going to get there inevitably.
#
It's definitely not there now. It will definitely get there at some point in time.
#
We tend to overestimate the short term and underestimate the long term so I don't want to say
#
that it will happen in two years. But it will happen sometime. And then I think
#
and I am thinking aloud so tell me what your thoughts on it. I think that then there are three
#
possible scenarios that play out in terms of how people respond to it.
#
Like you assume perfect deepfakes that cannot be debunked.
#
Then I think there are three possible reactions. One reaction is a skeptical mindset.
#
So everybody is skeptical of everything and that's a default
#
mindset. A second is that you are completely disinterested. So when it comes
#
to politics that could mean you choose your tribe in advance and then you don't care information
#
kya aa raha hai, kahan se aa raha hai. And the third is narrative battles that whoever
#
actually gets the best narratives across and does the most work
#
they win. And the second and the third are very depressing for me.
#
And what I would really hope and what I am sure you guys are also playing a big big big
#
part in is helping people think sceptically about
#
everything. Question everything. Don't take anything for granted. So and I have just been
#
thinking aloud of the possible sort of responses to this. But what would your thoughts
#
be on this? It's difficult to say but you know
#
while we yes we want people to become sceptics or be
#
sceptical. But I also feel that the more
#
we do AI generated content and more people
#
become aware then it will be more like an
#
anarchic side of kind of a scenario where you can't trust anything. You don't know
#
what you can trust. And I think that that will become
#
problematic when people because then it is
#
difficult to distinguish between what is real and what is AI generated. So
#
then real information like achha nahi pata ye AI generated hai or real hai.
#
And I have seen some videos on Insta and
#
these I am like don't do this you know. I mean they are not
#
believable because it is a dog doing things which it would
#
not do you know. But such realistic videos and I am like
#
no please don't do this. But the genie is out of the bottle. Abhi toh
#
abhi hum kuch kar nahi sakte hai. The genie is out of the bottle it will be weaponized all of that is true.
#
But mai jab dekhta ho toh the first reaction is like please don't do
#
this because and especially because they are doing it in rather cute ways
#
you know. A dog doing cute things and all of those things.
#
But I am like no you are taking reality away from us and
#
that is very very depressing.
#
But I don't know how we will react as a society. I don't know.
#
I mean I think we will still be debunked. I don't
#
jo bhi hai ke debunk toh kar lenge one way or this way.
#
For example if it is a clipped meeting
#
video. Koi toh kapde pehne honge na. Toh wo kapde match karte hai
#
or nahi aur kisi jo meeting hai. Toh at that
#
point of time in the interim it might be believable. But then you
#
so then they will have to match the kapda to what they have worn in a meeting.
#
In case of Rao Gandhi it is very easy because it is just a white shirt. But
#
in case of Modi it is far more difficult because then there has to be a kapda change every three
#
But I am saying that in terms of debunking we will find a way to debunk.
#
I think my larger concern is that once this becomes
#
known at this point of time it is not known. The issue of
#
defect is known in only some quarters. Once it is known that oh you can
#
generate absolutely anything can be AI
#
generated then we may enter
#
a place where you cannot trust anything.
#
Like abhi bhi hum log jab debunk karne ka
#
Pakistan Zindabad again go back to Pakistan Zindabad because that is a text test case.
#
Koi bhi Pakistan Zindabad ka bolte ki Pakistan Zindabad ka
#
nara hai jo politician ki wo accusation jata hai
#
wo sabse pehle bolta hai ki yeh toh morphed audio hai. Kabhi moffed audio nahi
#
hota hai. Kyunki wo Pakistan Zindabad nahi bol raha hai wo kha raha hai. Wo bol raha hai Imran saab
#
Pakistan Zindabad wo because audio ka quality social media pe
#
low ho jata hai and then once you say ki they are saying Pakistan Zindabad you
#
tend to hear only Pakistan Zindabad while they are saying Imran Khan Zindabad or something like that.
#
But it is never a morphed video. But the first thing that they will say
#
oh this is a morphed video. Ghabra jaate hain. Ghabra jaate hain wo bolte ki yeh morphed video.
#
Moffed audio hai, morphed video hai. Toh but and people also
#
like oh morphed hai yeh kya morphed hai, yeh morphed hai.
#
Moffed videos people keep asking. We are not in an age of deep fake etc.
#
But so we get so many queries. Oh is this morphed? Is this morphed? Is this morphed?
#
Just the other day we were at someone's place and
#
they were talking about Ambedkar video. He is talking about Nehru
#
sometime in 1955. And he
#
you know he is like yeh Ambedkar morphed video. Nahi, humne ho dekha hai ki
#
yeh BBC pe aapka you know BBC pe
#
hai yeh video. Nahi, Ambedkar on Gandhi.
#
Hum? Ambedkar on Gandhi. Ambedkar on Gandhi. It's a famous video. Yeah, you all know which one.
#
Toh bol hoi ki yeh morphed video hai kya. Bol hoi ki yeh morphed nahi hai. BBC pe hai. BBC ne
#
upload ki hai. BBC ki archives mein hai. Toh wo ki kya believe kare, kya
#
nahi believe kare. Hum log us age mein interview nahi kiye. Tabhi already
#
yeh ho chuka hai ki it is so difficult to distinguish what is real and what is not real.
#
I think a larger problem than morphed videos is morphed brains. Aur wo toh ho chuka hai.
#
Already, for example in Kolkata, jo bhi abhi rape and murder
#
case ki ho raha hai. And one of the audio which is viral, matlab
#
sabse zyada wohi viral hai video wherein somebody says ki wo she's a doctor.
#
I've seen what has happened, kaisa hua tha, post mortem kya hua tha, hua alwadar.
#
Pura conspiracy theory. Matlab ek toh text mein likha hua hai.
#
Ek audio mein hai. I think 2 and a half minutes ka video. And it's not deepfake. Someone has
#
recorded it already. Wait, audio matlab if they can fall for that, matlab
#
hi hai logon ko. Deepfake ka zarod kya.
#
If you have to fall for it, you'll fall for an audio. What you're really saying is
#
our brains are primitive. The technology doesn't need to be advanced.
#
Our brains are primitive. And I also want to talk about 2 things. One is supply demand.
#
Many times you use this phrase.
#
Yeh supply demand ki demand hai toh supply karenge. I don't think
#
that is how it should be. I mean that is, again I'll go back to the
#
capitalist thing ki demand hai toh supply karenge.
#
In this male world, there's demand for a lot of
#
fetish for different things about women. Are we going to
#
supply for that? Toh yeh demand hai toh supply karenge.
#
I think it's a very problematic concept.
#
At some point we have to figure out. But it's not normative, it's descriptive.
#
Ki demand hai toh koi nah koi toh aajayega supply karnge ke liye. It's a descriptive thing.
#
It's not normative. I'm not saying it should be like this, but I'm saying that
#
you have to understand human nature. That if this is what our brains are, then somebody
#
will come up to fulfil our needs. That is not a fault of capitalism, it's a fault of
#
human nature. No, but they have not at this point
#
till the last 10 years are, you know,
#
why has, why, yes there's always been
#
problems with our mainstream media. You know, at some point of time it was pro-Congress etc.
#
But it was never this toxic.
#
So there is a change, right? So demand toh sab same hai tha.
#
That this is a post-partition country.
#
And demand toh sab same hai tha. Lekin supply abhi ho raha hai.
#
Toh aisa nahi hai ki demand hai toh supply karna zaruri hai.
#
Yeh jo choose karte ki supply karna hai, that is a
#
choice that you're making and that is where certain amount of
#
I think what capitalism throws out
#
is the ethics and morality which comes with demand
#
and supply ki. Demand hai toh supply karna hi hai.
#
If it becomes, it's just like Facebook, anyone who
#
recently I was teaching, doing a lecture with a bunch of
#
design students. And so I first took them through a journey
#
ki what is the issue, you know, externally what is the issue with design.
#
Without talking about design, I said ki
#
do you think there is a problem with social media etc.
#
So they came to the right conclusion that algorithm is
#
correctly identified the issues. Then I said okay now
#
you are design students, I am putting you into a design team of Facebook.
#
What will you do? So then they are like, but in Facebook design team toh hum loko
#
we have to do whatever is needed for profitability. So that is what I am saying
#
that this thing that to achieve profitability, it
#
is okay to do something. And of course at that point some
#
students said, oh no, I am now totally confused, you know, because I feel
#
that this is how it should be. But now you're putting me into the Facebook design team and then
#
I am having to think what should I do while I am in the Facebook design team.
#
So then should I still design for profitability or should I design for social good?
#
So I feel that there is a need to think
#
about this in every profession whatever we are doing
#
ki where do we cross lines for the
#
sake of profitability that we keep saying ki achha
#
ki demand hai toh supply karna padega.
#
No, no, I agree with you completely. I think, but I think the conflation
#
there is between what should be the case and what is the case. For example, I can easily
#
it's easy for you and me to say ki that there should be no gravity. Then we would all be
#
able to fly. But the point is there is gravity, right? Now as an
#
organization I might choose not to do a certain kind of podcasting which I know would be
#
much more popular. And you might choose not to do a certain kind of news
#
which would get you much many more hits but you won't do that because you have
#
principles. And different people will have different kinds of principles. So what we can
#
do at our individual level is you try to be the kind of person you want to be, you try to build
#
the kind of society you want to build. But it's also important I think to recognize
#
the reality out there, you know, which is what you're trying to do
#
essentially by understanding human nature. So I don't think we're even saying opposite things.
#
No, we're not saying opposite things but what I'm trying to say is that if you're doing a certain kind of
#
podcasting and if there's someone else, we know all kinds of podcasting
#
is going on, right? There's a lot of toxic podcasting that is going on.
#
Then what I'm saying is that it cannot
#
it is not a valued excuse ki oh there is demand so let's apply.
#
It has to be we it has to be said again and again that just because there's
#
a demand you're supplying you're wrong and it is not okay to do that and
#
that this this that I feel
#
that that there are certain ethical guidelines
#
that that the society should follow and they have to be constant reminders
#
of it because the fact is that that we have fault lines as humans
#
we have fault lines. And then if we start
#
start weaponizing our worst instincts
#
all the time then there's no place to go. So we have to say that no it is
#
not okay to weaponize. It is not okay to weaponize. We have to keep saying that
#
and because in because culturally at some point in
#
time it was not okay to say certain certain things. Now it's become okay to say
#
certain things. We have to go so so human
#
human mind works through social what is okay to do
#
socially and what is not okay to do socially. So it is not that
#
that this demand supply this demand supply issue is balanced by
#
what is okay socially and what is not okay socially which is why which is why
#
differentiate between West Bengal, Calcutta and Ahmedabad where
#
in Ahmedabad it is okay to do certain things which is not okay in Kolkata and
#
vice versa. So so that is where
#
in popular culture it has to be reinforced again and again
#
know that it is not okay to do this. It's not okay to do this. It's not okay.
#
That is the only check and balance. I mean I agree with
#
you. I'm not disagreeing with it. I'm just saying that both of us agree on the way the world should
#
be but I think both of us also agree on the way that the world is. So now it
#
is our fight that we have to try to move the needle
#
in the right direction. Now as we kind of approach the end of
#
the podcast I'll go to some slightly more personal questions
#
and one of them is this that whatever you do there is a sense of purpose
#
right and that has obviously alt news began as a labor of love
#
and became a mission you know in a similar sense even this podcast was a labor of love
#
for me and became something bigger. How do you redefine
#
what is left of your personal life with it like how do you find the balance
#
where is the balance that when you think about your life your life's
#
one thing that will give you a sense of purpose is obviously this larger fight
#
but that is I'm guessing that's not the sole
#
area of purpose in your life that your life is more meaning beyond this
#
so how do you find that balance? What do you do in your free time? Do you still
#
do share-o-share-y as much as I imagine you used to?
#
So you know like Prateek you mentioned that you know both of us might someday do
#
something different and I hope so because you know life is rich there are so many things to do
#
so give me a sense of outside of
#
you know outside of alt news what are you guys?
#
What do you do? Where do you get your purpose? What do you really care about? What are your passions?
#
Wrong question to me because most of the time I'm so much involved in
#
Twitter and other stories
#
so I get a little less time but off late I've started
#
anyway anyways I say from 8 o'clock I go out
#
of my house whenever I'm at home I'm usually on my phone
#
or maybe around my kids. Usually it's not like
#
I sit in the corner of the room and just look about news
#
but when I'm working it's always has to be in the hall the kids should
#
be surrounded and then I also talk to my mom whatever I have to do
#
we do it together so that I don't feel disconnected with whatever
#
is going on whenever I work it's always in the hall I never use
#
laptops it's always on my phone so and also
#
in the evening I usually go out with my friends
#
say from 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock till 11 o'clock 11.30
#
I spend time go out I mean sometimes now I've started
#
I play tennis sorry shuttlecock I used to play cricket
#
I spend time I mean go to tea shops
#
I have to talk for 2-3 hours and I come back apart from that
#
now I've not taken my family out too much I'll have to
#
now I mean that's some complaint against me from my family
#
that I don't take them out as much I think I'll have
#
to start doing that so apart from that I just yeah
#
it's being the eldest in my family it's the responsibility to be
#
I have to go somewhere so it's always me my mom or my wife or whatever
#
it's me who has to take them out anyway so that happens
#
but I say if I have to go outing or go somewhere
#
holiday I'll have to now start
#
he pushes me yeah I'll have to go do that regularly now
#
he also in the last 2-3 years he's also thinking more about
#
savings and he's thinking about the father side
#
of him is becoming more prominent and so he's
#
he's thinking about savings etc.
#
it's like now I have kids I've got their education
#
for the future which is probably why yeah
#
what about you Pratik? Meera to last
#
2 years in fact it's only last 6 months that I've become more functional
#
for various reasons I had a lot of dysfunctional
#
relationships so then for one year in between
#
my priority was my personal life I need to fix my personal life
#
because it was affecting everything else
#
around me so then I was also missing for a bit or rather
#
very short term and I focused on
#
thinking about myself what I need to fix in my
#
personal life and all of that now that has become stabilized relationships
#
has become stabilized so that was my focus
#
and then the priority is
#
his mom also complains that he doesn't go out much
#
she would be happy if I visit
#
Ahmedabad saying okay you've come now that you can take him out
#
you can go for swimming or else you sit at home this is what she used to
#
complain I don't know about how it is now
#
there are certain priorities that for example
#
like if my partner calls it doesn't matter where I am I will
#
always pick up the call it doesn't matter where I am and if I'm not
#
going to be picking up the call so I have increased
#
certain priorities in life which is beyond all news
#
if she's calling then it doesn't matter
#
where I am I will always pick up the call response so
#
my personal side I have increased priorities for
#
those because otherwise if you don't
#
it is very easy to take the personal side for granted and then
#
it becomes dysfunction you have this just the way we actively think about
#
the world we also have to actively think about our I have
#
learned and realized that we have to actively think about our personal lives this
#
trope that the best relationship is one that happens in the background
#
I don't agree with that trope that relationships have to be on the foreground you have to
#
actively think about your partners you have to actively think about the people who are in
#
your lives especially the ones who are important so
#
I'm focusing more on that so mostly the past couple
#
of years has been to think about you know how to
#
deal with relationships and and not be this person who's
#
inside a room and you know this under this thing that oh because I'm thinking
#
about the world it is okay not to do other things and I don't think
#
anymore that it is okay to do that wise words and a
#
little earlier you said that sometimes when your mom is trying to call you and she can't get through she'll
#
call Zubair instead so now this means you pick up all of your partner's calls but not your mom's calls
#
yeh kya intentionality rikhadi bhai ne
#
it's not like he doesn't want to pick it up I'm just saying
#
she say yeh kaam karna hai karna hai karna hai he would not have done that
#
toh abhi wapas he cannot respond to her in that way so he doesn't want to
#
you can expect what is going to come from the other side so in that way he would ignore it
#
otherwise he would pick it up that's why aunty would call me up
#
he would not pick it up
#
only if he's not done it
#
nirjari ji if you're listening please don't shoot the messenger
#
we are making the rest of the world
#
at least some parts of the world accountable she makes us accountable and that is where things get difficult
#
who will call the bullshit of the bullshit callers
#
so you had a lot of time to prepare
#
for this Pratik I'm going to ask you to talk about Zubair now that in the time you
#
know him like what do you think of him and how has he changed what have you
#
gotten to learn about him in all these years through these times
#
I just said that you know while we were talking I just realized
#
or rather I have realized over a point of time that you know he's
#
become more of a family I wish that he was much more of a family man
#
actually that at some point he
#
abhi phone nahi chhodna abhi se family ke saath rena
#
I wish that he comes to that at some point in time
#
but as a specific you know I know
#
I think I know it intrinsically I have never had to sort of
#
articulate it but how has he changed I think
#
I think he realizes much more how important
#
this work is when we first started it was I think that
#
realization was not there and he was
#
less careful he's far more careful now
#
after there's a lot of FIRs against me so there are a lot of people
#
and me and my mother have been on his case the whole time
#
ki you know ki ussa bhi hota hai mere se
#
ki ye kya post kiya wo kya post kiya
#
I don't know if it is stable
#
wo ek to complain hai ki I spend a lot of time on my phone
#
which I have to reduce wo honi pa raha hai but abhi aisa nahi ki
#
off late thoda hua hai it's like for him
#
if he's on work he would stay in a separate room
#
kaam karte rana mere case mein ye hai ki I mean I be with my family
#
but I don't think that's a good idea when you're giving
#
time to someone you give it 100% when you're doing your work
#
you do that and then because otherwise you're not doing either of them efficiently
#
that is what I think but in this case
#
completely usbi karna hai to I'll not be able to wo honi paata
#
also presence is also required at times family ko
#
kuch dena hai to I'll maybe probably have to go out and kuch lana hai
#
but dono time ko family time or work time ko
#
constantly dono mix mat karo thoda to mix hoga kabhi bhi mix hoga
#
lekin there has to some time has to be family time
#
where like dinner table no phones you know
#
there are certain times when it has to be family time certain time has to be work time
#
nobody is saying that it cannot some intermingling it will happen
#
but there has to be dedicated family time and dedicated work time
#
this is now again a case of how it should be and how it is because Prateek what you're saying is
#
how it should be for me but what he does is how it is for me
#
so it's a difficult standard to kind of get to where but I completely agree
#
you should whatever you're doing you should put your full focus on it
#
and we sometimes make the mistake of taking the people in our lives for granted
#
so a little more intentionality is required so please pick up your mother's calls every time
#
then Zubair I'm going to ask you now to talk about
#
Prateek that you know what were your first impressions of him when you met him and how do you think
#
he has changed during this entire period because I'm imagining that
#
in many ways he must have grown a lot as a person
#
because he's also having to take a leadership role on build a startup
#
himself instead of working for other startups so what have you seen what is your sense
#
when I first knew him that is like through online
#
I knew he's working on this stream but
#
earlier what I thought of him was
#
very strict, very angry
#
and then when we started meeting multiple times
#
he seems like he never gets angry
#
when you speak to him no matter what I remember last time
#
maybe for a month I was out of touch I did not receive
#
I didn't even respond I forgot about him I didn't answer anyone's call
#
but I knew that I can convince him after a month
#
that I'm not doing anything, I didn't work today
#
sometimes I don't feel like it, I don't want to log in, I don't want to work today
#
I don't want to join a meeting because I'm late
#
he would not even understand
#
that I must have worked the last few days or something else
#
which is more important, he didn't come for a month
#
he would not ask why didn't you
#
why are you not concentrating, what happened, everything is fine
#
sometimes my wife is asked if he's fine, he's more concerned about that
#
everything is fine, it will continue, he would ask about my health
#
what are the other problems, how is he feeling now
#
this I've seen it with all the employees
#
initially a lot of colleagues say
#
initially I was afraid to talk to Prateek
#
I tweeted today, he's a fat guy, initially he's scared to talk to Prateek
#
but then once they get to know about him
#
they are more comfortable speaking to him directly
#
no employee or colleagues complained that he's rude
#
he's always very, he's a very good listener
#
he would not react immediately
#
they would try to get more information
#
they would try to get more information
#
not just in my case, I think everybody's case
#
that's one thing which has not changed
#
he's very calm in this matter
#
he would advise, if you want to say anything
#
he would understand, even if you speak a little
#
he would understand that they want to speak
#
and he would not react, if an employee says that
#
I can't join or I don't want to work
#
I would react, I thought this is an important story
#
how can I talk about it, but Prateek's case is a little different
#
is that your basic nature, Prateek, or is it something you arrived at?
#
both, my father was very
#
so I think it's both, and I think it is
#
I think that this is also a learned behaviour
#
where I was talking about information and emotion
#
information, our inherent
#
sort of thing is that information leads to an emotional trigger
#
and that we have to self-educate what information and what emotion
#
it's triggering and how to modulate that process
#
so in a world where information is more and more weaponized
#
and the realising that there is such an intimate relationship between
#
information and emotion, I feel that it is a need to self-educate
#
how to modulate that process, that when you receive a piece of
#
information anywhere, anytime, then
#
it is necessary in these times or any times too
#
so take a step back and then
#
figure out an emotional response slowly and not immediately
#
and does understanding that also help you understand yourself
#
a little bit better, like if you are seeing the connection between information and emotion
#
so then do you understand how your own reactions also...
#
I feel he has also become calmer, don't you feel that you have become calmer?
#
now that you ask me how he has changed, it doesn't come in one go
#
but I feel he has also become calmer
#
earlier there was a lot of anxiety, now there is less anxiety
#
there was a lot of aggression too
#
there was not aggression, there was anxiety
#
there was less anxiety definitely
#
and does the anxiety get lower
#
because you realise that there is no immediate reward in this
#
we are playing the long game
#
initially we thought that if we do this then it will end
#
that phase was also like, for example
#
when blinching used to happen in 2015-16
#
everybody would use to call out, the news was
#
across India say for 2-3 days
#
now it has become so normalised
#
that people are not even talking about it, a lot is happening in multiple places
#
be it for cow produce, or any blinching
#
and nobody is even talking about it, recently
#
after the Kolkata case, everyday there are a lot of rapes
#
and molestation cases across India
#
hardly anyone reports here, because it is now being
#
reported and now it has been a trending topic about the molestation rate
#
everywhere, news channels have started
#
all of a sudden you feel what is happening, as soon as it happened
#
everybody is now, everywhere is happening, it's not like everything was happening
#
it's just that reporters are now talking more about it
#
so now it has become normalised, it's not happening much
#
earlier there was a discussion on Nayanxetti
#
now you also used to tweet about it
#
now after a period you tend to say that
#
hate speech is happening in Maharashtra, Rajasthan, Chhattisgarh
#
how much will you report, at times you feel that
#
there are F.R.s happening, but nothing is happening, multiple F.Rs are happening
#
one after the other, nothing is happening, you feel
#
blood down, after reporting so much, it's okay, documentation is happening
#
it will probably be helpful in the later run, but you are not able to see
#
up front that nothing is happening, so at times
#
you do it because of documentation
#
but at times you feel very helpless, especially knowing that
#
even if it is the opposition government, they don't take any action, or at worst
#
they leave it, especially against people, such people who have been regularly doing
#
so my second last question for both of you, that when you look at
#
India today, and you guys have seen it much more closely than
#
most people, more than even me from my little
#
27th floor studio here, when you look at India today
#
what gives you hope and what gives you despair?
#
there are lots and lots
#
there is a lot of hateful messages
#
but I also feel that this is happening in a very organized way
#
especially if there is an ideology against them
#
it is happening, and obviously it is not like what it was before
#
it didn't get into people, now it has happened, definitely
#
a lot of people are doing it through WhatsApp, it has definitely increased, but I still feel
#
this is because it is happening in an organized way
#
be it through social media, be it through national media, who are regularly
#
talking about love jihad, land jihad, population jihad
#
whatever you say, everything is now connected to jihad
#
so the same discussion is happening everywhere, which is why the same thing is happening at the dining table
#
the same thing is happening at home, over a period of time
#
I still remember Arnab Goswami
#
he used to go viral for every video
#
3-4 years back, Republic was very famous
#
now if you see, you hardly see his videos
#
nobody would share his videos, it is not like he has become less toxic
#
but people are now so bored and so used to it
#
the same thing is happening again and again, some people watch it regularly
#
but the general public has reduced it, which is why his videos
#
he is trying to do something more than controversy, I have seen his videos
#
he is trying to do something more than controversy, he is trying to do something more than controversy
#
he is trying to do something more than controversy
#
so this I am sure will also come down, I just hope
#
and I am sure that it will take some time
#
but until these national media outlets or TV news channels
#
will not decrease, other social media will not decrease
#
if we check the facts on social media
#
or call out someone else, it will gradually end
#
hopefully it will be more during the election
#
but it is the news channels who have been regularly doing this
#
one is that they are told to do so
#
and the other is that they have also learned that this is how they get more viewership
#
because the number of subscribers they have got
#
this is the ideological limit
#
and now if you stop doing such videos, even they get bored
#
so what you were saying about the supply
#
they have created it, which is why now they have to
#
people are hungry to see this
#
and because they are hungry, they are producing the content again and again
#
so I just hope that hopefully these news channels
#
will end hate speech, targeting of one community
#
Pratik, what gives you hope and what gives you despair when you look at the state of our country?
#
we recently attended Kunal Kamra's
#
the day after 240 I woke up
#
I felt that there is a certain weight of me
#
I swear I felt that I felt lighter the day after 240
#
that it felt that something has changed
#
there was so much despair
#
I remember two days ago
#
we were in a meeting and Zubair said that nothing has happened
#
and Zubair and I were sitting
#
we were saying that there should be so many seats
#
I think the only thing that did not match, we have that thing, Orissa did not match
#
because we were talking to multiple people
#
we were talking to people in Maharashtra
#
both of us had an internal sheet
#
but the day the exit poll came, this guy was like
#
leave it, nothing is going to happen
#
240 is an important number, why?
#
because in this election every speech
#
by the Prime Minister was about how the Muslim community is going to harm this country
#
I mean it was idiotic in many ways
#
maybe someone else would have been smarter about this
#
but I also feel that this election indicates that
#
you know the question that we have been asking that at what point will
#
Hindu, Muslim, this thing
#
at what point will it stop getting votes, that is the question that we have been asking
#
yes it will continue to fester in the society and
#
there are other things that will happen but at what point will there be a plateau as far as
#
the electoral returns and I feel that 2024
#
signifies that now we have reached a plateau as far as electoral returns
#
that is if the Prime Minister goes back and repeats the same
#
thing that he did, he will get lesser and lesser and lesser seats
#
which is why they are having to change tact, we clearly see that otherwise they could have gone
#
along that line if that had worked but they are clearly having to change tact
#
so I think that gives hope from a
#
larger point of view that at the end
#
of the day if there is a
#
even we know that there is some rigging here and there but if there
#
is an electoral system that even
#
if it doesn't work fully but we know that election commission
#
was, did not do their job, all of that but despite all of that
#
there was a sort of working electoral system and
#
we see the result of that
#
so that is a hope that after that
#
we did some work on election integrity during
#
this and I feel that all of us need to do
#
much more work on election integrity and put more
#
pressure because at the end of the day that is what matters
#
and we have to demand more transparency
#
we are not saying that there has to be more transparency
#
I do not allow counting of the
#
what is that machine called, the other thing, the votes, the paper slips, I do not allow
#
counting of the paper slips, there is so much
#
technology that you can count paper slips now
#
so we have to work more and more on
#
election integrity and that is also something I feel that I want to be involved
#
in working on the issue of election integrity
#
then the other thing that gives me hope that I sincerely believe that
#
there is a stark difference between BJP and
#
the other parties, no other party
#
maybe Shiv Sena also maybe but Shiv Sena is a different Shiv Sena these days
#
and there are two Shiv Sena, they are also different
#
but in general no other party
#
benefits from anti-Muslim propaganda, electorally, there is not
#
only BJP benefits from anti-Muslim propaganda, so if a
#
day comes that they are not in power anymore
#
then you know, see the problem is when your
#
media is not independent and which it is not, it is increasingly not so
#
they have, you know, fewer and fewer
#
industrial houses are controlling the media, so when another party comes
#
then they will exert the same control for good or for
#
otherwise but I feel that that will also reduce
#
the anti-Muslim propaganda
#
and which means like 70% of actually the misinformation
#
then you are cutting off the supply side and I feel
#
that the realisation is there in the society that look this
#
hate is too embedded, so people will also try and look for solution, people will
#
also try and say okay, let's make the communities meet, let
#
you know, let's break bread together, all of those things
#
and I feel that that could be some amount of malham lagana
#
jo bolte hai and finally I have great
#
hopes in the education space, I have
#
huge hopes, I have seen
#
what it can do, I have experienced it
#
as an observer, I have experienced it as a participant and I am experiencing
#
it as someone who is looking for a solution in the education
#
space, I have great hopes in the education space and that if
#
with time, I am not saying that it is going to come tomorrow, day after
#
whatever, but with time if there is a
#
if we have information as a subject like physics, chemistry, maths, we have
#
information as a subject that how do you deal with the world of information, I think
#
that will also change things.
#
You know, I have recorded episodes with many people, but out of them
#
the two most optimistic people I came across were Tista Settilwad and Aakar Patel
#
who have arguably suffered the most at the hands of the state
#
and Tista came to the show right after being released from jail
#
and she was just so full of optimism and hope and Aakar ko
#
maine pucha ki, you know, at that time he hadn't got his passport back and I asked about the passport
#
and he was like, arey, you also don't have
#
so Aakar was like, arey, COVID hai, kahan jaunga, that kind of thing
#
and just now I really love it and I think my listeners must have noticed that I asked both of you
#
to tell me what gives you hope and what gives you despair and none of you mentioned despair
#
and both of you mentioned hope and you Prati gave me multiple points
#
so I find it delightful, I guess that is something that, you know, just
#
helps you do what you do because it is bloody difficult, it takes a lot
#
of courage, I know you've both been through very difficult times
#
so this is inspiring for me
#
and I'll want to end on a happy note where at the end of
#
every episode I ask my guests to recommend books, films
#
music, whatever they love, whatever gives them joy, so for me and my listeners
#
please recommend. I watch bits and pieces
#
of Friends when, you know, that is my sort of
#
comfort food, comfort, yeah, just go and watch a bit of Friends
#
books ka toh aisa koi recommendation nahi hai
#
main toh joon jo books, jaise bachpan mein
#
thi kya Robinson and his family, something something, Robinson Crusoe
#
not Crusoe, there's a book about a shipwreck
#
Robinson something, that used to be one of my sort of favourite books
#
but no, I don't have a specific book recommendation
#
yeah, yeah, I don't really have any
#
recommendations. Fair enough, if you think of any you can send them to me, I'll put them on
#
the show notes, anything cause you admire also. Zubair?
#
Mera pehle hi bol jya tha ki I'm so bad at reading books, I'm always on
#
phone, but you can recommend shairi, you can't say
#
ne, achha, the shairi part was also like wo phase alak tha
#
soonse, you daar dukh bhara maau tha me, abu likte bhi thei kya?
#
ne e jetha surける ki cith Diathosham yeah,
#
kuch fabric sunain ge jo apne likha hai, nahi,
#
don't be shy , bohot pehle ka tha je osGranyen sh
#
Shaira asi, phase hi appears, so
#
I'm not into Shairis these days but , movies, music
#
As a child, I saw an animation series called history, the Marxist groups, my parents used
#
to run these Marxist groups, so there was an animation series called history, which
#
is, I think, eight part animation series, or it's, I think it's a Danish, Danish
#
filmmaker who made that. And few years back, so I was remembering that, that, you
#
know, I carried, you know, it sort of, I thought, I think about it often, and a few
#
years back, I wrote to the Danish, this pre-COVID, I wrote to him, you know, I
#
can't find this, you know, because I had watched it in VHS format. And then he's
#
like, Oh, I have uploaded here, but I don't have money to digitize the rest. So
#
then I went and downloaded whatever was there, and I have it on my laptop. But I
#
feel that I want to recommend that, you know,
#
Is it available to watch somewhere?
#
Yeah, I think it's on YouTube. I think it's on YouTube. I'll find out and I'll send
#
it. But yeah, that is what I want to recommend that, that, that series, that
#
Wonderful. So, you know, you guys have had a long day in between, there have been
#
phone calls, and I know you've been busy. So thank you so much for sparing this
#
time. It's been great talking to you and more power to whatever you do. And then
#
let's, let's again repeat that link where people can pay.
#
go.altnews.in slash donate 500. And also altnews.in slash donate.
#
All right. That's a call to action. Thank you, guys.
#
Thank you so much. Thank you. This was a great conversation.
#
Thank you so much. Yeah.
#
If you enjoyed listening to this episode, share it with anyone you think might be
#
interested. Support Zubair and Pratik. The link to donate to altnews is in the
#
show notes. So do check that out and put your money where your mouth is. I know
#
you're as impressed by these guys as I am. If you've reached this far in the
#
episode, you can follow Zubair on Twitter at zoo underscore bear. You can follow
#
Pratik at free underscore thinker. These will be linked from the show notes. You
#
can follow me at Amit Varma A M I T V A R M A. You can browse past episodes of
#
the scene in the unseen at scene unseen dot I N and every podcast app of your
#
choice. Thank you for listening.
#
Did you enjoy this episode of the scene in the unseen? If so, would you like to
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support the production of the show? You can go over to scene unseen dot I N slash
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