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When William Shakespeare started writing in the late 16th century, the diggish critics
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of the day were unhappy. Critics like Ben Jonson and William Sidney felt that Shakespeare
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strayed too far from the classical unities of time, place and action as outlined by Aristotle.
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They would have preferred the older structures of the great Greek and Roman plays. Some people
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like Robert Greene felt Shakespeare was too populist and lowbrow. He even called Shakespeare
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an upstart crow, whatever that means. Other critics felt that Shakespeare's work was
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too frivolous and it promoted immorality, and something like the language he used, to
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whom he should just have replied, yeh bhai, this is nahi wali English.
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Listen, here's the thing, language evolves and art changes with the times. They will
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always be purists stuck with the language they grew up with, the art they consider great.
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But the world moves on. Society changes, and new artists turn up who are creatures of this
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changing society, and who shape the language just as the language shapes him. Shakespeare
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did just this in his own time, and in this golden age of art, yes I'm calling it a golden
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age of art, we are surrounded by artists and writers and musicians and filmmakers who are
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doing just that all around us. Let us celebrate them.
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Welcome to The Scene in the Unseen. My guest today is Divya Prakash Dube, a bestselling
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Hindi novelist and the pioneer of a new style called Nahi Wali Hindi. In my opinion, this
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could also be called Real Wali Hindi. Divya, like all great writers, like Shakespeare in
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his own time, has an ear for the language around him. His work is in the language that
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all of us speak on a daily basis. Conversational, no artificial big words, bits of English thrown
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in when needed, authentic to Divya's world and to our world. A mutual friend introduced
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us and I found him super interesting and I thought I'd call him on the show one day.
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I ordered his books, and then life happened and I forgot. Then one day he saw me tippy
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tapping away on my laptop at a nearby Starbucks and he came and said, Bhai, I've a storytelling
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show coming up, aake dekhlo. It was a show called Tension Matle Yaar, where Divya, or
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DP as some of his friends call him, stood on stage alone and told this long, beautiful
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story from his own life. I teared up many times during the show, I was so moved by
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it and so delighted later when DP agreed to come on the scene and the on-scene. The conversation
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you will hear is about his life and times, about our changing society, about Nahi Wali
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Hindi, about his fabulous books, about the films he has written for Mani Ratnam and lots
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else. It's also mostly in Hindi because it felt natural that way, so those of my listeners
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who don't know Hindi, sorry for this. Regular programming resumes next week. And now, before
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we get to this conversation, let's take a quick commercial break. If I had to define
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my life in one word, it would be this, procrastination. I have a dozen unwritten books in my head,
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multiple YouTube shows, even a podcast or two and I have so much problem with discipline.
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If you are like me, allow me to offer you a solution. Two dear friends of mine, Deepak
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Gopalakrishnan also known as Chuck Gopal and Utsav Mamoria have started something called
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the 6% Club. If you have a project you want to get off the ground, then join the 6% Club
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and Chuck and Utsav will help you go from idea to launch in just 45 days. There will
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be live sessions over weekends, one-on-one personalized mentoring sessions, guest master
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about a project but actually bringing it to life. Now, let me tell you something, I vouch
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for these guys. Chuck and Utsav have both been on the scene on The Unseen and they are
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enough, make it happen. The 6%.club.unseen.
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Divya, welcome to The Scene on The Unseen. Thank you, sir. You invited me. We have been
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chatting for a long time and I saw your amazing storytelling show. I have been reading you
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and I really wanted to do this even though it was a challenge for me because I don't
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have the habit of reading Hindi. But I still loved October Junction and I read bits and
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pieces of your other work and really sort of enjoyed it. I want to sort of start by
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asking about something about which we were talking about earlier, the coffee we were
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drinking and you said, you made an observation that nowadays everybody is looking into their
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individual screens. There was a time when people, you know, you are sitting around in
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your living room and you are watching television and it was a communal thing and I remember
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as a small child in the early 80s, the excitement when Hum Log first came written by the great
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Manohar Shyam Joshi. As you pointed out, that is not among his best work, but that is what
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people know him for. And after that, the first episode of Bunyad came and there was a lot
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of excitement and there was a communal sharing and I have also seen that whenever I ask the
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guests of this show, you know, what are your memorable books or movies that you remember
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and many of them are as old as me and older than me and of course, biased towards English
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speaking people. But whatever it is, you find that there are many common connections, you
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have heard the same things. And I think that people who are 20 years old today, when they
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are meeting 30 years later and they are having a conversation, it is possible that nothing
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is common because there is so much splinter. And at one level, that is great because, you
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know, people are being, you know, the means of production are in everybody's hands, there
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are more creators, there are more writers, people can discover their own taste. So in
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one sense, it's good. But in another sense, there is that question, what do we do together?
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What is it that a family does together? What is it that friends do together? So what are
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When you were asking this question, I was remembering that there was a ritual on Sunday
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that if one day the chole is made for breakfast, it means that it is Sunday by default. If
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I remember correctly, on Tuesday, my mother saw it. On the day of chole, we thought that
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it was Sunday. And Sunday was fixed. The one that came on 9 o'clock, whether it was
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Chanakya or Mahabharat, like Mahabharat and Ramayur at the time, it was a bit smaller.
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But my big vivid memory about it is that, we all sat together and thought that nothing
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would happen at that time. And there is so much excitement, I couldn't see the rangoli
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that I used to come in the morning. But at 9 o'clock, everyone's breakfast would be after
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10 o'clock or before that. And we would sit and discuss why it was there. Or there is
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a story behind it. And in fact, at that time, my father was in Ghaziabad. And one or two
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episodes were posted on his check post. And he couldn't see it, so he used to come in
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tape recorder and recording. So he used to record audio episodes and we used to do it.
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And at that time, there were a lot of things at the community level because light used
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to go out. So it used to be such a good time that the light went out. And now there are
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so many stories. You can't do it outside. If there is no exam in Mumbai, why would anyone
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study? Or the Petromax that used to come, the one that had to be made by burning it for the
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first time. The one that used to burn for the first time, it had to be done separately
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so that it could be made like that. And as soon as the light went out, everyone was out
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and walking around, talking, playing. That shared memory, in the form that you were
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saying that people who are 20 years old don't have such a shared experience. But every
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generation made their own. For example, now my child is 8.5 years old. And those kids
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who play, I see live events like cricket. That is their shared memory. Which was also
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there in our time. We used to do it. But live events are still the same. The craze
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in cricket, whether it is to see Virat Kohli or as I said in a joke, one day a match
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happened with one run. I don't follow that much cricket. In Nepal, with one run, people
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lost. So I said, with one run. So my child said very casually that he is 8.5 years old.
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He said, this happened in 2018 too. So I said, how old were you? He said 3 years old.
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But he has seen old matches. I don't know how it was on YouTube or whatever. But
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it is still the same with games. Which is not the same with films. Because films have
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become very individual experience. But every generation has its own. We always feel that
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our time was the most classic. But every generation finds its own way. And I am sure
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we don't know that because we are not 20 years old. But for every generation, the 90s
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has an extra hangover on us. Which is on many writers and many people have sold it a lot.
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I am sure this generation will have that too. Whatever is not in our hands, it becomes
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Nostalgia. This is a very vague concept of Nostalgia. That it will only be of the 90s.
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I always feel like I have returned from a trip yesterday and I still have that trip's Nostalgia.
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Nostalgia can be 2 hours old too. So I am sure that generation will find its own way.
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I am sure we are missing the collective experience of seeing Vyomkesh Bakshi as a family.
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Why do they sit as a family in live events? Because we have another filter
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that can we see it with a child or not? I am joking with my friends that when we were
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kids in class 5th or 6th, the news that came on Doordarshan and the one minute break
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we knew what the ad was about. We used to go to get water.
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It was very common that when a hero came to the heroine, we went to get water.
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Now in today's date, I see that my child and I go to get water.
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So there is no problem of hydration? No, there is no problem of hydration.
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But there was a mystery about Nostalgia.
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When we were growing up, the collective experience in friends like
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I was in Shahjahanpur in class 8th or 9th.
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The first time you see a blue film, it is a collective experience.
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It is not an individual experience that everyone goes to a friend's house
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for a wedding. They eat for a day and luckily there is a VCR.
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So when going to get a cassette is also an event in itself
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that 5 people will go together to get a cassette.
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Once there was a movie called Durga Talkies and we thought
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that we should know the secret of life that we are confused about.
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So we thought we will go to see this movie.
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So 5 people went to a friend's house for a birthday.
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And we waited for 3-4 months so that it gets dark at 6.
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So that when we go to the show at 6.30,
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there was no 3-hour movie.
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It was a collective experience.
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There was a lot of fun.
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And then we were scared that someone's family
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like one of our friends went to see the movie.
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And we met his father there.
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So the next day we sat and discussed for 2 hours
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that if the father and son get to see an adult movie,
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then who should go back?
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So we gave different theories.
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The son's life is starting.
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So now we should take this experience.
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The father's life is over.
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It feels good when you remember it.
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Our memory gets auto-corrected.
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Whatever happens in the past,
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it gets filtered and everything is fine.
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It used to be restless at that time.
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So I got a different kind of nostalgia after listening to you.
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You mentioned Bhoomkesh Vyakshi.
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So a few days back, a few weeks back actually,
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I went on YouTube randomly.
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And I felt very nostalgic.
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I wanted to watch something in the old style.
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So I didn't want to watch OTT.
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I remembered Bhoomkesh.
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All the episodes are there on YouTube.
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And it was so charming.
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You can obviously point out flaws and everything.
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But it's just so charming and reassuring.
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And even discovering the birds and the bees as it were.
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I remember once I was in college.
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Maya Mem was released in Ferguson.
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So there were a lot of rumours that
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Deepa Sai is nude in one scene and blah blah blah.
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So I went to the first day of the show.
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And then I went back to the hostel.
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Ferguson College hostel.
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And everyone there had such descriptions
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from my imagination that there were no scenes.
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The hostel was empty in the afternoon.
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Everyone had to watch the show.
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And one person came back to me and said
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They cut it for the second show.
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fell in love with Raja Hindustani.
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Because the first smooth scene
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and that too was over 60 seconds long.
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So in our Shahjahanpur school
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someone saw it and came back.
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And the film is different.
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First of all it's a fantasy.
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A driver of a big house
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makes his wife his daughter.
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And the way I studied in school,
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it was a different level of fantasy.
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Because the school had a fee of 2 rupees.
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So this is a different world for us.
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The smooth scene was over 60-70 seconds long.
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So exactly one guy had counted it as the second.
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And the next day he came back and said
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Raja Hindustani has seen it.
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I said no, I have to go now.
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He said the 60 second was a bad thing.
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Because for the first time
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Because there was a style.
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If you look at the whole of the 70s
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But suddenly big heroes
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never used to smooth on screen.
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Even now, Salman Khan doesn't do it.
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I have seen him maintain it.
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Maybe there is a filter
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that if a family is coming then it's awkward for someone.
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Yeah, I think when Mallika Sherawat
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in her first film did some 17
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I still remember that number.
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Because it's 17 so we remember.
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That's why it was sold to us.
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Which didn't happen once in 17 years.
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I completely buy your point that
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the current generation will have
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new things to be nostalgic about.
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Obviously not these kind of things.
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But I also wonder about another change.
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is not in the previous generation
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it's inside me as my own life is changing.
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What used to happen before
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you used to get a book and sit and read it.
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And when you didn't have a book
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you would be bored, you would look outside the window
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you would make up things in your head.
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Today you are scrolling, swiping all the time.
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The patience I used to have to
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much harder to come by.
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You have these beautiful lines
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which Chitra says to Sudeep in
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Tober Junction where she says
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If you come for two days
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then you will never like Banaras.
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If you come to Banaras then come with time.
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And so on and so forth.
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Later they are in a place called Magic Cafe
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and one of them is thinking
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that the reason for more than half of the problems
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And I just think about that
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that there is a slowness
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that I think is important
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where you let things sink in.
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And if you are in a hurry all the time
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then everything is very shallow.
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You are not living things fully.
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What is your sense of this?
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Because you are a father yourself.
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Your son is having a very different
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I imagine you have kept a few things common
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the rhythm is really different
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and I think when the rhythm is different
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your mind gets used to a different kind of thinking.
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I remember that I used to be very bored
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I mean it used to be too much
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pick up a book and read it
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at that time we didn't have to wander
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even at that time we were restless
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like there is one thing that is constant
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I don't remember exactly
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there is a poet named Mani Shukla
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I remember one or two lines
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in the context of this conversation
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that it takes a little time
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that you leave everything
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but it takes so much time
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at that time we were not getting up
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it was not like one day
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someone will read more than three comics
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or this generation that I feel
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like a problem, like they feel
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everything is available on Amazon
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like everything will be delivered
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like I deliberately stopped him
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from watching TV for one thing
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except for a fixed time
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because even if he is watching cricket
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even with us it has started to happen
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sometimes mindless scrolling
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and it turns out that half an hour has passed
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it turns out that it has happened
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and the problem of social media
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the best problem is that
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one or two videos will crash
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that as soon as you see a video
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that you feel that you are not wasting time
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like I cracked in the middle
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that you can gift your girlfriend or boyfriend
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and that video went viral
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the complexity of the world has increased
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that as soon as you solve a problem
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of this world, people start paying attention
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but you think that I will get to know about three books
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so I have not wasted my time
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they play on a psychological level
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I am not able to remember your question
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one thing that in this generation
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there are plenty of options that we had
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which were very limited
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our references were very less
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before there were very few
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like an uncle or a friend
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and they used to tell something from there
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then they could only take 36 photos
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so they used to get delighted
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and now you forget after taking thousands of photos
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whether it is a live photo or not
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as soon as you are on leave
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it becomes delightful for you
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but can we stay the same or not
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so I thought I will go to a different place
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like I went to Goa once
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once I went to the mountains
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and I couldn't write a single word
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and I am a big fan of old time writers
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and there were 3-4 people
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the door was open, people were coming
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the food was being cooked
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and they used to sit in their hall and write
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so every film had a different pad
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so wasn't it a disturbance
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that someone is coming to your house
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as soon as you close everything
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and give me the atmosphere
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as soon as I cancel everything
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I get scared because it doesn't sound natural
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I think something is not happening
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in the world that I didn't know
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so no matter how slow we get
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there is a lot of bombardment
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and all of us are suffering from it
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but it will keep on going
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every generation will do it their own way
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tourism will be very popular
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he opened a cafe called Nukkad
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there are no chairs or sofas
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you come and put your mobile on the counter
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so there is a 10% discount
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we will find one in this chaos
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even if everything is filled
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and laughed and put a leaf on it
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even if everything is filled
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and go to his lake house
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we are wasting time on twitter
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virtually after 100 years
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he used to sit on Wednesday
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everyone used to sit in the cafe
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at that time twitter was the same
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if he used to sit there for 3 hours
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he used to sit there for 3 hours
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women, friends, politicians
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are not sitting together
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but we are doing the same
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at that time he used to go to his lake house
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which we are running from
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we can see it in different forms
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we can see it more on mobile
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but it was there before
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even Gautam Booth had to go
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will tell us in different contexts
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when I read from Hindi medium
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that how will we make a place in this world
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that no matter how tall the building is
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no matter how tall the building is
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no matter how high the sky
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there will always be a room
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there is always a scope
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which we can't see then
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we think it is impossible for us
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but later it becomes clear
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than reading the Chinese
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to know that we can read Chinese
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you know the story you told me about
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Rahi reminded me of something
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they would all sit for lunch
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at a particular point would just take her
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paper and pen and on that very table
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where everyone is sitting together
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she would start writing
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she did not need peace and quiet
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obviously the family knew that once she is writing
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manage that space for herself
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why don't you take a guess
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what is the time when I get my best reading done?
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in the washroom, in the train
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there is a phone signal
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and the last time I was in a flight
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I read the latest book of Cal Newport
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that has a lot of insights about
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so let's talk about your childhood
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which you feel you should believe
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you should do eventually in life
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that if someone is born on the 11th
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then he will get salvation
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so by mistake the day I was born
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I was born on the 11th and the 12th
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so I was born on the 11th and the 12th
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so for many days my mother
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used to make seviyas on Eid
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so later when I saw Kabir
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something magical will happen in this world
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that you are breathing in the same air
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so I was born in Banaras
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that back then there was no money
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because my father had a new job
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and that day his result
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was the reshuffle of the deputy SP
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and I was named Devi Prasad
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so when I was posted in Muradabad
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when I reached the first school
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so when the teacher asked me
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what is the name of the child
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so I was told that you know what people will do
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so I was given a fancy name
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and the first memory is still from Banaras
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when my sister was born
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so when I got on the bed
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you can see the other girl
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and when I got on the bed
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I had a wound on my stomach
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because the hospital beds are a little big
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so I still remember that wound
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I have a very vivid frame in my mind
#
and then slowly I came to Muradabad
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so I started schooling in Muradabad
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in KCM and in a very filmy style
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Gangaram was our rickshaw driver
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who used to take the kids of the neighborhood
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there was no school there
#
and I went to school by mistake
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and I stopped in the class
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because he didn't pay attention to the verse
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and he also has a memory
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that I stopped in the class and while crying
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I screamed and everything was over
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and I started searching
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the whole class was locked
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and while I was doing it
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the whole class was opened
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and someone heard the sound of crying
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so I left the verse outside
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so the school that I used to shoot at 2 o'clock
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which was not there that day
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I found it around 5 o'clock
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and then I came to Ghaziabad
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there was a question in a school
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which I couldn't understand because of English
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so my father thought that he couldn't understand because of English
#
so before talking a lot about English
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if math comes then what is Hindi or English
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so from there my Hindi medium
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so my sister used to study in English medium
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and we both got transferred
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is 110 km away from Lucknow
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is always 10 years behind from Lucknow
#
because with all these cities
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that every city which is Haridwar
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like Shahjampur is in that lane
#
so we started schooling in Muradabad
#
then after Muradabad, Ghaziabad
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when we reached Haridwar
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where there is a theater
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where you get a ticket for 6.50 rupees
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so a different world opens in front of you
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for the first time from class 3rd
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till 6th or 7th I studied there
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and that environment was such that
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there was a colony in Koyel Bagh
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some officers used to live in that colony
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there was a judge's bungalow
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and we used to see the judge's bungalow
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even then the kite falls in the campus
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we used to define it like that
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because the British officers
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used to live there were such big bungalows
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DM bungalow and judge's bungalow
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we used to think that how will we get this bungalow
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how will we have 4 soldiers standing at home
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one thing is that there is a lot of fascination
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that there are people in state services
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so some people are powerful
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because power comes from the police
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till then when I was growing up
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I was asked why we don't have such a police
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so it was told that when
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father went to the police, my grandmother
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didn't let the police join
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because she thought that no one will go to the police
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there was no grandfather
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his father was 15-16 years old
#
so I used to see the police
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with a lot of fascination
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that if we were there today
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because at that time there was a different hierarchy
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but we were in sales tax
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so when we used to tell that
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or when I used to tell in school
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what happened was that all the colony officers
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the district supply officers
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the basic education officers
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all these kids used to study in English medium
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and I used to study in Balvihar
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because I had done one question wrong
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due to English so I was put in
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so I always used to think that
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why am I studying like this in school
#
I had this complaint for many days
#
but eventually they will come later
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that why I thought it was the best thing
#
so in that colony there was a lot of atmosphere
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that there is also an ADM and SDM
#
and one more thing I understood
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that 60-70% of the people
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were all studying in Allahabad University
#
and I saw this as long as my father
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worked because there was an atmosphere
#
there used to be a lot of bureaucrats
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so that world opened up
#
but all these kids who were studying with me
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they had a different world of English medium
#
and where I was going there was a different world
#
the driver in my father's office
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his daughter and I were in the same class
#
so sometimes that question used to come
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that why am I not studying there
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opened up a different world for me
#
when you went to meet in Holi for the first time
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and there was a friend of mine called Ravneesh
#
we are still living in government houses
#
we know that these are the RTOs
#
the first time when I went to the street
#
where the water is overflowing
#
and he went there and he was probably mine
#
because now I understand that he is a child
#
of a government official
#
so for the first time maybe the peanuts
#
were fried there and they were given
#
and it was like a house, like a pot
#
so for the first time I felt that
#
the world of Holi is different
#
so slowly it started from there
#
and it was the same in Shahjampur
#
and I studied in UP board in Shahjampur
#
and there was another government school
#
he is from the same world
#
the same factory school
#
and there was a siren in the factory
#
I felt like factory made people were walking
#
so all that memory was going
#
and these were the schools
#
which were in the worst form of education
#
like no teacher was teaching
#
all the teachers were teaching tuition
#
1 rupee 80 paise is the fees of the school
#
and 1.5 rupee tuition is the fees of the physics
#
such a chemistry teacher
#
and I used to say in a joke
#
that it didn't cost 5 rupees to build a cycle
#
and the school said 1 rupee 80 paise
#
it is important to study
#
in class 11th, 10th, 12th
#
a Babu in a government office
#
the one who earns the highest
#
and when I used to come to the colony in Shahjapur
#
it was a different world
#
I used to feel that this is the right
#
in that I used to over hear
#
as a kid I had a lot of curiosity
#
was joking with someone
#
saying that you are getting kidnapped
#
so that world is opening
#
because you don't talk about money
#
my father is in sales tax
#
so I used to tell someone that he is in sales tax
#
so they used to think that he is an attache
#
and the money that he gets everyday
#
so you are in sales tax
#
so one of the basic emotions
#
take his child and ask him to buy
#
when sales tax was very popular
#
and they were very well known
#
when my father went with me
#
to buy something, no shopkeeper
#
so it happened once or twice
#
so he went without telling
#
because it was a big order for him
#
from clothes to video game
#
and if they buy then they will think that
#
but the time was such that
#
if a sales tax person comes in the market
#
then he will think that he is ready
#
and he has come to fix the money
#
so the basic thing that a father
#
the money was given and I came first in 8th
#
so the video game was given
#
so that world was opening
#
the one that comes in Mario
#
so that was very cherished
#
I came first in 8th class
#
and that is a very funny thing
#
my child is 8.5 years old
#
I have told him 150 times to read
#
he didn't tell me to read
#
my 10th board was in high school
#
and I woke up at 4 in the morning
#
and my Hindi paper was there
#
the board exam was from 7
#
so I asked him what is the paper
#
because he knew that it was board
#
normally the whole house knows
#
so I asked him what is the paper
#
when the math paper was there
#
why are you studying now
#
you have studied for a year
#
what will you do after studying for 2 hours
#
so he had a very different way of life
#
maybe he studied philosophy
#
so it had an effect on me
#
so this was the world of Shah Jahanpur
#
the loss of tuition in Shah Jahanpur
#
that was a very innocent world
#
that we are going for tuition
#
if you don't study for tuition
#
I have seen teachers in a very crude way
#
and I took revenge from them
#
that I have to change the names of all the teachers
#
so that they study later
#
so it was a very crude world
#
that we were paying for tuition
#
and there was a good teacher
#
and we used to fancy that tuition
#
because that was the only tuition
#
where girls used to study
#
so there were no boys in school
#
so we used to study there
#
and that teacher was very smart
#
so when the batch was over
#
he used to leave the girls
#
and used to spend 10 minutes with us
#
so that they could go so far
#
that we couldn't follow
#
and sometimes they had to do the next batch
#
we had to give a 9th year card
#
and we had to talk to a girl
#
so me and my friend Vikas
#
we used to discuss that if I go
#
I will say this and she will say that
#
then there will be two permutations
#
which is more than being in love
#
the feeling of feeling love
#
the world was opening up
#
because girls were like a mystery to us
#
there was no concept of
#
we used to spend 3-4 months
#
so this was in different cities
#
and Nihal was in Banaras
#
like in October Junction
#
I have seen Banaras after a long time
#
in childhood there was a railway colony
#
so the world used to open
#
how those 8 people grew
#
Nana ji was retired in 1987
#
so he took the same government house
#
so that the children's education
#
so when we used to go during summer holidays
#
the coal that they used to light
#
like every city has its own fragrance
#
even now if I close my eyes
#
and get into that fragrance
#
I can tell you exactly that this is Banaras
#
maybe in childhood the same Kulfi guy comes
#
and the people who used to watch the goal
#
started coming in my mind
#
I don't know the reason
#
2-3 worlds were opening
#
like when you were with
#
there was a cricket match
#
so one day he didn't come
#
so I asked him why he didn't come
#
so that's why I didn't come
#
that he comes from 20 km away
#
and there is only one cycle in the house
#
is that the third world
#
and first world problem
#
this time we went to Masuri
#
so we used to know how to hire
#
like when DM came to play
#
we had to wait 2-2 hours
#
because badminton court is limited
#
so both these worlds were opening
#
that I studied in Hindi medium
#
and the disadvantage was
#
that when we reached Lucknow for coaching
#
we were being taught in English
#
so an ordinary word like conductor
#
and I was watching the cast
#
because it was a class of 12 people
#
and we were able to coach 2 people
#
and I have such a vivid memory
#
that the boy who used to sit behind me
#
used to hit me with a pen
#
and I said I won't show it
#
and he reads the roll numbers randomly
#
and when we were in 11th
#
when there was a break in school
#
he used to come to our school to sell samosas
#
even though he was a goon
#
I don't have any such sympathy
#
how important it was for him
#
because if he had passed
#
he would have got 2 more years
#
I didn't understand all this
#
and there was a lower version of Shahjahanpur
#
at that time I didn't understand
#
Lucknow was not Lucknow for us
#
Lucknow was Delhi for us
#
we had never been to Rajdhani
#
Bhojpuri was our first Hindi
#
and Hindi was our first English
#
so that was a different world
#
how to make a place in this world
#
so when I came to Lucknow
#
and when I didn't understand English
#
Rajneesh and Vivekanand
#
this is something wrong
#
because the children of Mahanagar boys
#
who come under the merit of 27-27 people
#
are doing coaching from 10th
#
and after 12th we will figure out
#
and the amazing thing is
#
that I took the pressure of IIT
#
my upbringing was very good
#
they didn't even ask what to do
#
I was so blessed in this matter
#
and I remember one more thing
#
in Hardoi there used to be a magazine
#
in Hindi it was the biggest magazine
#
in Hardoi there used to be two special magazines
#
in Hardoi they didn't come
#
they used to ask when they will go
#
and when they will go they will go to drop us
#
and when they will go they will buy us a comic
#
so I used to ask when will you go
#
so there used to be Hans magazine
#
and there used to be two
#
so they asked who is the other one
#
the DM, I am forgetting his name
#
so they were very surprised
#
that who is the other one who reads Hans in Hardoi
#
so in this matter my departmental
#
there were books in Surendra Mohan Pathak's house
#
my father had read all of them
#
so he used to read literature, he used to read Rajneesh
#
the memory that I still follow
#
someone used to turn off the light at night
#
so even now we have a ritual
#
that before going to sleep
#
even if it is a fixed time to sleep
#
but before going to sleep I don't know how my children
#
it is like there will be a book near your head
#
reading 2-3 pages randomly
#
before going to sleep you read it
#
I will say it is time to sleep
#
so he will say let's read it quickly
#
maybe if we tell him it never happens
#
if he sees it then it happens
#
I don't know what he will remember
#
a lot I want to double click on
#
but first tell me about your
#
of parents of that generation
#
is that their world when they were growing up
#
when they were young was much more limited than ours
#
and in a sense it is very poignant
#
that forget dreams coming true
#
or not coming true you don't even feel
#
you have the permission to dream those dreams
#
poignant that in many ways as the world
#
begins to open up for their children
#
then they are living their dreams through their children
#
and sometimes it can be
#
very ugly, sometimes they push their children
#
too hard, everything becomes
#
study for this, study for that and that is dangerous
#
and in your case it seems that
#
it was not at all that your parents
#
gave you so much freedom
#
father was a deep reader, a man of culture
#
it will be a little different
#
and I imagine that at one
#
that you can take refuge
#
in art and literature and all that
#
at another level it can also be a curse
#
because your frustrations can increase
#
sort of hints of the outside world
#
like that, so tell me about
#
them, both your dad and your mom
#
like when we are growing up
#
we don't look at our parents as real
#
people, flesh and blood, right
#
they are almost caricature in our head
#
and later in hindsight we begin to
#
resolve all of that and the layers peel
#
interior life doesn't come, so
#
tell me about them, so the kind of
#
family we are, especially
#
and in all those families
#
eastern UP has a very UP or Bihar
#
concept, which is the head of the family
#
and with that the other people's
#
conversations are cut off
#
the conversation is not like that, like
#
from my father to my college
#
the conversation was like
#
ok, fine, yes fine, ok fine
#
this is what we used to talk on the phone everyday
#
but that was a fixed time
#
my father opens up to me
#
because when I used to go, we used to
#
talk about who my father is
#
first of all you are looking at that officer's face
#
that I used to see that he used to get up
#
and when he used to get up
#
by that time in our drawing room
#
used to sit, who had already had 2 cups of tea
#
because he felt that he had to
#
stay like this all day, so he used to get up
#
and that first cup of tea
#
with those people who had some work
#
10 people used to entertain together
#
3-4 cups of tea were already done
#
like my father used to drink 40 cups of tea daily
#
and he still had diabetes
#
because he used to drink 3 jugs of water
#
like in the heroes, when he was 15
#
he was studying in Madras
#
I mean it was his first paper before 13
#
it was like now get the paper released
#
what will happen next year
#
anyone's father has to go
#
he didn't let my grandmother cry
#
in the case of a 17 year old boy
#
who is reading Ibn Safi
#
he didn't teach literature
#
that from where he got the maturity
#
and the last memory of his father
#
is with him that he was fond of watching movies
#
so like in the old movies
#
they don't have dialogues
#
the priests get the money
#
they used to go to the movies
#
there was a puja at home
#
and someone gave money so they went to the movies
#
the priest was not feeling well
#
even though he was the favorite
#
when she used to remember
#
because he didn't let her cry for 10 days
#
she used to cry and tell everything
#
and our grandmother's story telling
#
when she started crying
#
the emotion that people learn
#
naturally I have seen it
#
the conversation is not happening
#
even though they never scolded
#
that 10 people wait for this man
#
there was a very interesting thing
#
not because of the food
#
how long the bullets of the gun were fired
#
and there in Maruti 800
#
it operated in Maridaro
#
and in the story of Hardoi
#
the story of Hirnakashef
#
your father opens like a mystery
#
communication was very zero
#
when I came to Mumbai in 2007
#
I took admission in a college
#
later I did not study there
#
so they sent me 5000 rupees
#
and then dance bar was running
#
they told me for the first time
#
that we could not ask money from anyone
#
because my uncle was 13 years old
#
so he became a father figure
#
so I came to know that all the money
#
and for the first time he made
#
a terricot pant for his wedding
#
I think all that sacrifice and all that
#
so he was the father figure of my uncle
#
so they said we could not ask money from anyone
#
so I went to the dance bar and
#
drank maaza for 200 rupees
#
the relationship changed
#
and very late you understand
#
that when your father is not there
#
in your growing you can not be stubborn
#
that we need video game
#
you come first, we will get it for you
#
my grandfather was a guard
#
4 brothers and 3 sisters
#
so she was the eldest daughter
#
and I think that my grandfather
#
left his village and came to Benaras
#
and guard was that when train was late
#
he used to get extra money
#
and when he got married to my father
#
he used to think that guard is bigger
#
and he used to think that guard is bigger
#
and he used to think that guard is bigger
#
but he thought that guard is bigger
#
but he thought that guard is bigger
#
he never had much ambition
#
if she wanted she could have done
#
so my mother is open to me
#
that elder daughter was very good
#
but her attitude was to take everyone
#
the best thing about my mother
#
is that she believes in god
#
and I don't believe in god
#
is that when I didn't have selection
#
then after doing engineering
#
I didn't do anything for 2 years
#
but for her it was easy
#
that she didn't get promotion from god
#
or anything that is not happening in her life
#
or her brother's selection
#
or anything that is not happening
#
she used to ask for it very easily
#
I know that this doesn't happen
#
and knowing this is a very dangerous thing
#
there are photos of god
#
so the beggar is expecting 1 rupee
#
so he used to give us 10 rupees
#
I understood that in corona
#
where we live in laknow
#
there is a vegetable vendor
#
where there are retired judges
#
there is a colony in visheshkhand
#
they live in that space
#
from 3200 square feet to 4200 square feet
#
the vegetable vendor in corona
#
my mother doesn't have any authority
#
so he sent us 10,000 rupees
#
I think he used to ask from anyone
#
there are so many people here
#
why did you ask from your mother
#
because there was a chance
#
that they don't order food in this colony
#
the 13 vegetable vendors
#
and they take 20, 25, 50 rupees
#
from every vegetable vendor
#
I understood all these things
#
that they don't have to order food online
#
so the vegetable vendor
#
doesn't come out speaking
#
and there is an account of that
#
they didn't have any interest
#
they just had one dream
#
that their kids speak in English
#
and my sister used to call me an idiot
#
and I used to call her a fool
#
sometimes I have the option
#
like my father is the topper of law
#
apart from the constitution
#
his numbers are unbeaten
#
but if I have the option
#
that I will be a mother or father
#
then maybe I will be a mother
#
because this is a skill
#
when your faith is broken every day
#
even then I think it is magic
#
so this is mother father
#
and ask another question
#
I have grown up in English speaking
#
and at one level I think that this is something
#
I wish that this would not have happened
#
and what happens is when you
#
grow up in the kind of bubble that I have
#
you tend to look at religion as
#
something that is outside of you
#
even for those who believe and who practice
#
it is something kind of external
#
it is not intrinsic to who they are
#
realized that the bubble was a bubble
#
I think more and more about the
#
role that religion plays
#
in the lives of many people
#
if you are a rationalist
#
thinker and you are following
#
enlightenment values you don't really get it
#
that is outside of them but it is
#
ingrained and that they cannot live without it
#
etc etc and when you were
#
describing your mom that everything is for her
#
role of religion that you have seen in towns
#
in small towns, in big towns
#
like me would simply not see, it would not be
#
visible and when it is visible there is a
#
temptation for me to be condescending
#
you know and have that superior attitude
#
when this Babri time was going on
#
I remember all the schools
#
the car service workers were made
#
all of them and at that time
#
the officials were made
#
so at that time I thought
#
it was over and I remember
#
class 6 or 7 whatever it was
#
someone used to come to us
#
uncle used to ask them if they will become
#
prime minister so the biggest thing for us was
#
will they build a temple
#
like in a temple there is a big
#
thing or something like that
#
because religion otherwise before that
#
the role of religion is very limited in this sense
#
because we don't discuss it
#
Jan Dhin is the story of Satyanarayana
#
you have to sit for 2.5 hours
#
you don't have anything to do with it
#
you don't have anything to do with it
#
you don't have anything to do with it
#
in Gazipur, the neighborhood
#
where we used to live in Sakleinabad
#
when we used to go there
#
we used to know that on Tuesdays and Thursdays
#
everyone gathers and they do
#
Ramcharitmanas or Sundarkand
#
it was never in the form that
#
there is an organized discussion about it
#
like in Kirtan it is not fun that you are singing Sundarkand
#
in Kirtan everyone is getting together
#
there is tea, there is someone's bad
#
the most interesting thing was
#
that today we will go and
#
and we will distribute the boondi
#
the thing that looks good
#
like it came to me from my mother
#
for 5 rupees for churan and potatoes
#
anyone used to ask me for anything
#
in fact in 5th I topped every two
#
that this is the biggest grain
#
because I thought that I am Karn in life
#
that was also found from above
#
I don't know if that was the sense
#
so the form in which we discuss
#
it was not a Hindu concept for me
#
because all these things did not exist in this form
#
going to a temple was an ordinary event
#
every Tuesday you have to do this
#
because the question was after 12th
#
that what is all this drama
#
because you came to know
#
that going to a temple on Tuesday
#
has nothing to do with religion
#
the problem of your life
#
has nothing to do with religion
#
there is a good line in Ramcharitmanas
#
dhiraj, dharm, mitra and nari
#
so dhiraj, dharm, mitra
#
dhiraj is removed for a second
#
these three are external
#
dhiraj is your only thing
#
that dhiraj is your own
#
the rest are all external
#
nari means male, female
#
because you don't know what dharm is
#
religion was not a big thing
#
it was still at the brahmad level
#
I used to joke that we used to do
#
sandhyaad in the village
#
I used to joke about taking daksha
#
but this is also a matter of time
#
I came in first division in high school
#
so at that time brahmad, vashya samaj, jain samaj
#
all the samaj always exist
#
and we all have a deep rooted identity
#
so they called me to give respect
#
I was thinking that I will get it in merit
#
we were thinking that 75% will come
#
and my mother was expecting
#
that my father's record will break
#
whereas that was the best result
#
of the last 20 years of OCF intercollege
#
that we came in first division
#
so the brahmad community called me
#
that this is not a number
#
for which respect should be taken
#
but I think they don't want
#
that I should consider myself brahmad
#
because to be brahmad for them
#
maybe something like that
#
that I brought my mother
#
near Hardoi, near Sitapur
#
started for the first time
#
after a point I told my mother
#
the days I was with my mother
#
she used to tell me not to cut my hair on saturday
#
that I cut my hair on saturday
#
or I didn't go to the temple
#
but as soon as I went to the hostel
#
I never cut my hair on saturday
#
because till then I was reading
#
Rajneesh takes you in a logical space
#
but still I used to feel
#
the softer things of life
#
like I will never go to my mother
#
to fight if she is a god or not
#
because this is a lost fight
#
when this happened for the first time
#
then we came to know that
#
I had never used a curfew in my city
#
so I still remember that
#
so I thought something was happening
#
we were called somewhere
#
maybe because we are from Dubai
#
to sit and see that this is happening bad
#
but my father in this matter
#
that he never allowed us to be part of it
#
we can never be a player
#
till that time it was like that
#
and in general it was with everyone
#
it was not that specific
#
because I still remember
#
when all this happened after 11-12
#
there was one Mr. Sharma
#
his son used to study with me
#
so I overheard in the drawing room
#
we have to come together
#
and something is going wrong
#
he never allowed me to be part of it
#
if I understood your question correctly
#
no, you understood it right
#
and what I also was curious about
#
the role religion played in your life
#
but the way you have seen it
#
because religion can be very personal
#
like I imagine it was for your mother
#
it can also be very tribal
#
like when all of you are called to listen to the cassette
#
and the tribalism can be very dangerous
#
and the personal side of it
#
it might even be necessary
#
it can even bond people together
#
so there are all these different shades
#
and roles that religion
#
in one context it can be tribal and ugly
#
in another context it can be soothing
#
and it can keep you rooted
#
if you see a very superficial
#
you might imagine that over the last 40 years
#
religion is playing a bigger part
#
and I think it is true to the extent that
#
politics is more representative
#
of what the people really are like
#
curious about how the role of religion
#
in people's life has evolved
#
if you have any observations on this
#
I told you there was such a big ground
#
even if people come from jail
#
there is a lot of money for agriculture
#
there are a lot of postings in UP
#
that the fields are so big
#
that you can sell a crop of 20-25 lakhs
#
the judge's auntie had a temple built
#
there was a puja and her mother had organized it
#
and there was no such thing that
#
no one from that colony had come
#
and it was like a very positive thing
#
my mother has so much reference
#
that we have gathered all the workers of the world
#
like Karl Marx had done
#
and all the Hindus have gathered
#
it was like a kitty event
#
like the representation
#
one thing I understand now
#
is that it is not like people have changed
#
people will be like this even before
#
one thing that has changed
#
like the name of Praveen Togadia
#
and people used to say that he is very offensive
#
now what happened is that Praveen Togadia
#
multiplied by 100 people
#
we are standing together
#
like I feel that in the last 10 years
#
if you want to make a following on social media
#
then you can take either extreme side
#
you go extreme left or extreme right
#
you are taking care of them
#
Mr. Varahi was right in an essay
#
that there is only one minority
#
and it will always be like this
#
because at that time it was not a flare up
#
now what happened is that
#
the people that you used to rough in copy
#
and never showed the page to anyone
#
now that rough page has become social media
#
the discussion in your drawing room
#
broadcasted that discussion
#
so that is open to the world
#
it is existing for everyone
#
so that mass scale thing
#
that is the reason for that after effect
#
it was not happening at that time
#
at a philosophical level
#
no matter how dishonest a person is
#
when he sees a picture in a dark room
#
he wants to kill a bad person
#
he wants bad to be bad with the bad
#
that you are comfortable in doing it in public
#
and I have been to many places
#
if you go to any Satsang
#
where 500 people are sitting
#
and I have been to Asaram Bapu
#
so the people sitting in the front
#
there is a line for God
#
it is a networking exercise for them
#
like the college in which I studied
#
who doesn't wear clothes
#
so we went in the evening
#
who we still write together
#
Muktesh's life was the same
#
his father was in the forest service
#
so the advantage of being a bureaucrat
#
is that you can do everything
#
you can take so much pressure
#
that you will be fine in studying
#
we thought that he has reached so much
#
when we reached there, there were 4 people
#
and they were surrounded
#
now what is Baba Ji telling us
#
that I had told him in Uttarakhand
#
so my poems have started in the course
#
so we thought that he is also confused
#
and when you go and see
#
as long as there is a poster in the house
#
and whatever you do in the house
#
as soon as they organize
#
you want to achieve something
#
like the extreme left view
#
is better than the extreme right
#
for you it will be right
#
but for me, like my worldview
#
people have been searching since morning
#
what is wrong in the world today
#
then there is a wrong view
#
which is in the teachers
#
that they blame you on the whole page
#
so your whole life is a wrong view
#
that what is wrong with you
#
whatever you are posting
#
for you it is a very tiring thing
#
so you are also waiting
#
so this is also not a life
#
whatever you are saying
#
and there are two contradictory thoughts
#
which have been in my mind for a long time
#
so let me see your reaction
#
I agree with you about whatever is in social media
#
but my thinking always has been
#
extremes on the left and the right
#
but they are a vocal minority
#
the silent majority is more nuanced
#
they are not necessarily so extreme
#
but the silent majority
#
the other thought and I agree with you
#
and misogyny and all that are
#
in the public space today
#
my sense is that society
#
I look at a frame I got from Timur Kurran
#
who has also been on the show
#
this great phrase he uses called
#
preference falsification
#
where he wrote a book called Private Truths Public Lies
#
in 99 and there he argued that
#
until all of a sudden everybody did
#
because everybody thought I can't say this in public
#
and they realized that there are more and more people like them
#
then that preference falsification
#
which they were doing became a preference cascade
#
people would have thoughts which
#
they would not express in public
#
but the moment you find
#
that there is literally a competition
#
to express those views and suddenly
#
those views are respectable
#
then you have a cascade of
#
and then a cascade of that sort I feel
#
that religion can change the way people
#
behave in the sense that
#
of a personal thing and can become more
#
of a tribalistic thing which is
#
One thing which was said before
#
that most people are silent
#
he has written a few episodes of Movers and Shakers
#
and an Audible show for me
#
was a show called Dil Lokal
#
and one day I had a doubt
#
I am a senior so I ask him
#
that the knowledge that Gautam Buddha
#
more than that you are taking in real
#
as much as he had in his life
#
that was my vague theory
#
who used to go to villages
#
nothing has changed even after 400 years
#
we are arguing with those things
#
with which he was arguing and writing
#
or whatever he was expressing
#
so when I knew that Kabir
#
would also have full faith that
#
nothing is going to change by saying it
#
this is how the world is going to be
#
so I thought that the real ones
#
so he told me a story of Rahim Das
#
or the truth of this world
#
the unknowable things are not to be heard
#
jo bolat, jo janat nahi
#
jo janat, so bolat nahi
#
whoever knows will not speak
#
and whoever is speaking
#
means something is missing
#
so I thought that maybe the majority
#
there is some sort of triviality
#
behave on my social media
#
and everyone is welcome in my shop
#
I don't say that if you are this
#
then I will not give you this stuff
#
I just operate like that
#
I also have an advantage
#
I can take that advantage
#
but I feel that I am not that person
#
the identity crisis is at the level
#
that you are working somewhere
#
if you see, a lot of dreams
#
that the people who did engineering with me
#
did a job, went to America
#
their dreams eventually
#
got fulfilled in 35-40 years
#
now that is a triviality
#
of life, that's why if you see
#
the people who are outside, whose lives are sorted
#
because their problem is solved
#
they don't care about day to day
#
they don't care about getting caught in a mall
#
the same thing happened with me
#
in Bangalore, I saw in the morning at 6.30
#
when I changed the name of Prayagraj
#
sometimes you feel like
#
we have a memory of Allah
#
from where will you get
#
Allahabad swag in Prayagraj
#
so there must have been 400 abuses
#
woke me up at 6.30 in the morning
#
and I saw that when I clicked his profile
#
whenever you change the name, it will happen
#
so I clicked and saw his photo with the kid
#
he works somewhere in Bangalore
#
and I messaged him very nicely
#
I said I want to come to Bangalore
#
I messaged him very nicely
#
and when he came in front of me
#
he was a different person
#
and the abuse he was giving
#
was of a different person
#
because I was worried that
#
how complicated his life would be
#
there is a kid in the house
#
so somewhere a deep thing
#
that he is going through
#
is happening in his life
#
we used to have ragging
#
boys used to take the most
#
it didn't happen at all
#
the one who gave ragging
#
it is a different debate
#
but those who are looking straight
#
we are living two or three lives
#
that the community gives
#
I think that's why it flares up
#
everything is aligned with the weekend
#
you think that you have to work
#
even if you can't articulate it
#
that's why it gives them
#
who can't kill a fly in real life
#
if they want they can kill four
#
because those poor people
#
and I meet them every time
#
Shah Rukh Khan said that you find out later
#
that you are not working
#
because there is such an ego chamber around you
#
like I used to say in a joke
#
so I told my friend that there won't be a single friend
#
these are such sad affairs
#
nothing against anybody
#
because there you get confused
#
like what is this vegetable
#
the boss in the office is telling you
#
that this was supposed to happen
#
during tea, during cigarette
#
that you have to do this
#
why don't you go and become a member
#
do it on the actual ground
#
it's not going to happen
#
it's not going to happen
#
some people get following
#
because there is nothing more fraud
#
it's a very dangerous thing
#
because I have seen many such influencers
#
I don't know if this is
#
I once went to the TVF office
#
who was a very big lawyer
#
and he was not a big lawyer
#
because he had more cases
#
he went to the same court
#
a rickshaw driver would come
#
and he would give him 20 rupees
#
and he would take his case
#
I went to TVF office in 2021-22
#
I had to wait for 5 minutes
#
so normally when I enter the register
#
I write my name in Hindi
#
they think I am writing in Hindi
#
I am always asking them
#
because you have to spend 2-4 minutes
#
so I told them that I am from Ghazipur
#
that the lawyer was Dharneedar Dubeyji
#
whatever age he will live
#
in 2007 he is 16-15 years younger
#
the impact on the hyperlocal level
#
will not be of 1 million followers
#
I think it opens up a truth
#
I don't know if they will call it real
#
discussing Carl Gustav Jung
#
and he used to sit in a cafe with his friends
#
it was like an early twitter
#
and I think it is different in two ways
#
it is different in one way
#
that in that early twitter
#
you will not get that 6.30am tweet
#
you will definitely get that person
#
but you will not get that 6.30am tweet
#
because it can only be found
#
in a depersonalized environment
#
like you are talking about hyperlocal
#
this person will remember that he was a lawyer
#
so those connections will be very strong
#
I think what social media does today
#
is that the scale increases
#
but the connections become very weak
#
the engagement becomes very weak
#
and I think at some level
#
and I was also wondering that
#
that there are so many people
#
who go to social media to vent
#
and I have sort of two thoughts
#
and one of my thoughts is
#
earlier I used to think
#
that social media brings out the worst
#
and then I asked myself the question
#
that is it actually the case
#
that they empower the worst among us
#
people do things on social media
#
or say things or come down on people in ways
#
that I can't imagine myself doing
#
it is like completely bizarre if they meet you in real life
#
like I think of the quote tweet
#
what is the quote tweet
#
you said something which I don't agree with you
#
and I point to you while you are standing there
#
and I think what this moron has said
#
and then we all laugh at you and then we call other people
#
and we mock you like that
#
in the real world it doesn't happen
#
so that's a weird kind of
#
sort of dichotomy there
#
but I will take you back to your childhood
#
because I digress from there
#
that one person has changed
#
I also used to take it personally
#
gradually things get normalized
#
that you will say something
#
some things will make some people angry
#
that person will not sit in fear
#
like he has some disagreement
#
on something he sends me a message separately
#
he will tell me that he is a brother
#
I have met him like a brother
#
but many people will never meet
#
like those people who are writing very badly
#
if someone does a social experiment
#
and makes all those people sit in a room
#
catch 10 people and take them somewhere
#
in a flight to the neighboring city
#
it will be a very different discussion
#
they will talk about movies, books
#
they will talk about the world but they will not fight like that
#
you told a mind blowing story of Rajneesh
#
which Rajneesh had told
#
about this guy who when he goes to a hotel
#
one his room, one his room upstairs
#
because he doesn't want to be disturbed by the sound
#
of the boots and all that
#
so one day apparently in this story
#
I will take the liberty of telling it and then I will get to my question
#
so one day in this story
#
one really rich customer goes
#
to the hotel and says I need a room desperately
#
and they say only one room but we don't give it out
#
and he says no no I will pay double
#
triple whatever and they tell him that
#
we will give you the room
#
until the person below has booked it for this reason
#
so don't make any noise with your shoes
#
so he goes in there and when he enters
#
the room he forgets for a moment
#
so the first shoe opens and it lands with a thump
#
on the ground and then he suddenly remembers
#
and he says shit I better be careful
#
so the other shoe is taken out very slowly
#
and kept with love and everything
#
he does carefully and he lies down
#
and after half an hour there is a loud banging on the door
#
and the person who is downstairs
#
has now come up and he is saying
#
I am really sorry I made that noise
#
I didn't make any noise after that
#
and you know what brings you up here
#
and he said no no I came because
#
for half an hour I haven't been able to sit still
#
because I am waiting for the second shoe
#
right for the second shoe to fall
#
said this in the context of trolling
#
which is why I remembered it
#
what a troll is waiting for is that second shoe
#
and in a sense we are all waiting
#
Rajneesh's stories are like this
#
I am sure I have said this
#
because it is my favorite story
#
Rajneesh's is more my favorite
#
is that a lot of people
#
think that we can't reach
#
working in telecom in Lucknow
#
I was working in telecom
#
so at that time Purshotham Agarwal
#
was the chairman of UPSC
#
I used to follow Purshotham Agarwal
#
otherwise whatever he used to say
#
I used to think it was great
#
and I had nothing to do with screenwriting
#
I didn't have to write a book
#
it was between 2010-2011
#
and there were new jobs
#
and management training
#
and you are new in marketing
#
sales is a different story
#
so it will be a 3 hour discussion
#
in which IAS will leave the job
#
and become a politician
#
till then Kejriwal was not there
#
the world was not that bad
#
and I thought I will meet TN station
#
so this was my fancy thought
#
and till then I thought
#
so there is a story of Rajneesh
#
a woman is praying in a church
#
Jesus appears in front of her
#
Mother tell me what do you want
#
and says you are not looking
#
you are talking to your father
#
I know many of your students
#
better than that I thought I will talk to my father
#
and I want to drink tea with you
#
and from 10pm I was going to office
#
that we are talking to UPSC
#
and Purshotham wants to talk to you
#
I am Purshotham Agarwal
#
so I said when are you coming to Delhi
#
I met him and we had a discussion for 3 hours
#
he is a better speaker than that
#
you meet him in fascination
#
you are satisfying that
#
but in Rajneesh's stories
#
when you are initial you think that you are troll
#
you get immune from praise
#
and you get immune from troll
#
so you don't remember in the same way
#
what people did in the beginning
#
so I forgot that it is good
#
the whole world is in preparation
#
now it is getting weird
#
I was with some police officers
#
and there were a lot of retired police officers
#
he worked a lot on police reform
#
that the first politician
#
and I have seen this in our growing up years
#
that the first transfer
#
you said that your mother is unwell
#
or your daughter is here
#
and you used to get transferred
#
then when the government changed
#
in the 90s when politics was changing in UP
#
so he said in the same context
#
like you used to say that I will not do this work
#
you get him transferred
#
the time changed irrespective of the party
#
that now if you don't do his work
#
then he can go to your family
#
who used to maintain grace
#
that I don't raise my hand on women and children
#
or I will not touch their family
#
and our villains became likeable
#
but now he said it right
#
that now that is vengeance
#
they go to the revenge level
#
there is a parallel narrative
#
and we are so sensitive
#
whatever I made in 12 or 13 years
#
that where you are saying
#
nobody will ever know if it was real or not
#
all of us are away from our destruction
#
at one level one screenshot is away
#
about trolling is Ashish Nehra
#
that Ashish Nehra did something
#
so all the reporters landed upset
#
that you are being trolled so much
#
how are you dealing with it
#
with a smile on his face
#
remove the smartphone interface from your brain
#
then who will do anything
#
like are they going to stand outside your house
#
and this is a very good way
#
because they are also waiting
#
they are waiting for the answer
#
that you will give them
#
maybe that is why they are doing it
#
and come and apologize to you
#
actually if you look deep down
#
then it is an ego extension fight
#
that he gave you the answer
#
the blue tick answer also works
#
like my uncle's daughter
#
so she never wrote anything
#
she said something very philosophical
#
and that is a cherished memory for her
#
like I also give the answer many times
#
so I think why are they doing it like this
#
that sir your answer came
#
because they are expecting that the answer does not come
#
like when Irfan sir went
#
maybe he had put it automatically
#
you touched my life or something like that
#
so it was an automatic answer
#
but there was a feeling in it
#
and all of us are waiting for that
#
and that is on a very philosophical level
#
whatever it is, whether it is delivery from Amazon
#
the biggest idea of your life
#
all of us are waiting for it till the last moment
#
whether it is troll or whatever
#
everyone is waiting in a train
#
it will not come, if it comes then
#
whatever you get gets destroyed
#
but take me back to your childhood
#
like what I am very interested in is
#
you know two interesting things are happening
#
one is that you are in India
#
and about India you know it is often said
#
and I often say also that
#
there are many centuries at the same time
#
19th century India is there, 20th is there
#
21st is there, all three are side by side
#
there is this place which is like that
#
where all these worlds are sort of super imposed
#
at another level you are living in a time
#
and I have lived in a time where the pace of change
#
where you know suddenly things are opening up
#
it is unimaginably fast
#
so you know in your small town
#
where you are and you pointed out that
#
you know your journey was not Hindi to English
#
it was Bhojpuri to Hindi first and then
#
onwards so you know you have seen
#
at one level you are in that
#
19th century India almost where people
#
think in a feudal way and
#
you know small town life is
#
like what it was 30 years before
#
etc etc at another level
#
there is television, at a later point in time
#
there is the internet, you are seeing
#
everything from the world, you are seeing
#
different sets of values, you are seeing
#
different sets of aspirations
#
you know so what was it like
#
kind of growing up like on
#
the one hand I would imagine that
#
it would be you know a tremendous
#
boon that your father is into books so you have
#
books around anytime that serendipity is
#
there you read an interesting book every book is
#
like a world so it is almost
#
magical in that sense at the same
#
time I also want you to elaborate on
#
what you said about being fortunate that
#
you went into the Hindi medium you know because I
#
imagine that also opens up a world to you
#
you are not in some bubble of government
#
children and all of that so give me a sense
#
of how your interior world
#
was evolving during this period with
#
the way the world around you was
#
so the relationship with books
#
that in our house there were no
#
so I could not understand that
#
as you are listening, if you drink
#
then you drink alcohol, Madhushala also
#
people drink in the context of alcohol but
#
that is a level up thing that is understood later
#
there was a line in Ghulam Ali's
#
that the flowing wind asked me
#
what do you write on the sand
#
you like the sound, you keep listening
#
like with a child, that lorry
#
understands the music, right?
#
it opens up meaning later, years later
#
or like the Sanskrit that we were reading
#
shlokas, so the first question
#
was written in Hindi, Sanskrit in those books
#
so I thought that they were making a parrot
#
but its deeper meaning that I understood later
#
that if you remember, then maybe
#
the meaning will open up one day
#
that you should praise the other
#
and you should praise the other
#
it is a sin to hurt the other
#
then maybe it will open up later
#
even if the teacher made it open
#
so the flowing wind asked me
#
what do you write on the sand
#
I was listening one day
#
so I said that on the sand
#
because I had never seen the sea
#
I had seen it in movies
#
so the sand that you write on gets erased
#
whatever building you make in life
#
everything will get erased
#
oh my god, this is a very big thing
#
there is something in these cassettes
#
but I still didn't understand
#
he said it very randomly
#
his approach was not that you have to sit and explain
#
Surendra Mohan Patak was at home but I didn't read
#
the world of Hindi medium
#
when I reached class 8th
#
Bal Bihar and Ram junior high school
#
since you came from English medium
#
that the school is good and bad
#
how are the children's bags
#
how many people go from there
#
how many people go by cycle
#
in English medium schools
#
there was a prestige issue
#
change their class and teach
#
and still they used to do it
#
and I used to hear in the neighborhood
#
and my limited understanding
#
and kids used to show off
#
even if you are playing
#
primarily I will tell about Haridoi
#
third, fourth, first summer
#
and the world is such that
#
the girl who is coming first
#
we feel that we fall in love with her
#
our definition is not that we know what love is
#
I have seen this for the first time
#
so when you see her in the hall
#
that face gets replaced
#
she becomes the girl of your class
#
and you become the hero instead of Sanjay Dutt
#
that you feel that this world is for us
#
but you are also actual
#
because in that environment
#
so we went to boys school
#
before going in that mystery
#
we are going daily, nothing is happening
#
we are playing cricket, everything is happening
#
there is nothing like that in life
#
I came to Ram junior high school
#
where I saw that one room house
#
where 5 people live, that world is open for me
#
comes in OCF intercollege
#
because in 8th I had a school
#
and there was a specific convent
#
even though it was a Hindi medium
#
because I had a very unique problem
#
when we both came from Ghaziabad
#
so I was in English medium till Ghaziabad
#
so when we both came there
#
I didn't understand anything
#
one more thing you have to account
#
it was done in September, October, November
#
so we came to know that
#
when you transferred in November
#
you have been studying for 4 months
#
you have to give half early exam
#
and you have to study everything
#
because you didn't get admission
#
because transfer is going to happen in 15 days
#
and you have to go to a new place
#
because you didn't have an orkut
#
so you are always thinking
#
why do we have to change the house
#
the environment, the city
#
the biggest pain in the world
#
so you have to change the city
#
so the turning point in Shah Jahanpur
#
is the admission in OCA Winter College
#
now this was a controlled world
#
the abuse of mother and sister
#
but as soon as you go to OCA Winter College
#
and that too the school was a bit late
#
because my admission was a bit late
#
and when I reached there
#
and I came to know that the teachers don't come
#
his name was Chandramohan
#
so when I reached there, the biology class was going to happen
#
so he came after 15-20 days
#
so when he came to the class, the boys were also having fun
#
so one boy came and said
#
and I thought it was a good question
#
so he asked, will you get married?
#
and the rest of the boys started clapping
#
it's useless, someone else
#
so he picked up the boy
#
and will you get married?
#
so what did the teacher say?
#
he said what will you do after marriage?
#
so he was so sexually under toned
#
then someone will shout from behind
#
saying that the teacher won't tell, you tell what you did after marriage
#
where a teacher used to come and say
#
because he had to come to some classes in helplessness
#
if you show it to me, you will get scared
#
so this world was very new for me
#
and you are not enjoying this
#
because the environment you are going from
#
so these boys are already here
#
even the teachers don't know anything about these kids
#
when I did my MBA later
#
I understood that this India
#
there is a lot of competition
#
these people are not getting a chance
#
to compete in that exam
#
there was a very surreal moment
#
I went to a Lucknow literature festival
#
I told Shah Jaipur that in our school
#
we don't even dream about it
#
and the biggest dream was to become a clerk
#
it was December 16-17, it was very cold
#
I have a habit of spending time
#
how long have you been doing this
#
I started talking to that waiter
#
he said it's been 2 years
#
so I asked where are you going to stay
#
he said I have been there for 4 years
#
he said I am also studying in OCF
#
meeting my super juniors
#
but one thing immediately struck me
#
what is the biggest dream there
#
that thing hit me a lot
#
so when I came to OCF intercollege
#
Guruji, this was unthinkable
#
and you can't speak at home
#
because all the boys studying in OCF
#
everywhere the names of the teachers are different
#
but the story was the same
#
no teacher was interested
#
you have to go for tuitions
#
and in tuitions there was corruption at this level
#
the 11th or 9th hafirli
#
the kids who were in tuitions, they used to tell them
#
so that the tuitions kids have more numbers
#
so that other people can study
#
we used to call them ghosts
#
so we used to call them ghosts
#
because they used to make ghosts
#
they had a very typical style
#
like you got admission in 9th, new kid
#
you know he came from outside
#
tell me A plus B whole square
#
now on the first day of 9th class
#
you don't know A plus B whole square
#
so he will say A minus B whole square
#
then we used to call dad
#
now when we used to call dad
#
we used to tell him that nothing will happen
#
I give private guidance to these kids
#
I am worried about your kid's future
#
send them there, you don't have to come to school
#
so they used to make a list
#
then the kids used to go for tuitions
#
I couldn't respect the teachers
#
we used to call him white pigeon
#
unfortunately I forgot his actual name
#
so there was a Pandeyji
#
he didn't teach in class
#
he didn't feel like teaching
#
because there was a junior school
#
and Pandeyji was in his 50s
#
and there was no interest in teaching Pandeyji
#
so those kids used to say
#
there was a sexual undertone
#
of the whole environment
#
that they are looking from here
#
and the teacher is looking from there
#
so the kids used to enjoy
#
sir, let's have a story
#
now the juice of this lemon is gone
#
so all these things came later
#
slowly think about the teachers
#
what are they preparing for
#
but when you have so much reality
#
and they didn't feel anything wrong
#
from morning 6 the tuition used to start
#
the teachers of physics
#
didn't feel like teaching them
#
but they used to open a register in the morning
#
and what I am telling you
#
this is almost the reality of the government school
#
their life doesn't change because of online courses
#
and why the teacher of physics is important
#
30 out of 100 are practical
#
he can give you 5 out of 30
#
you can also get 20 out of 30
#
like I didn't study chemistry
#
from my school teachers
#
in his written he gave me 2
#
and my highest was in Shah Jahanpur
#
and I didn't have any hand
#
so in order to impress them
#
I cracked chemistry at a different level
#
I didn't know any other way
#
because to be good in that chaos
#
or it didn't even reach behavior
#
that you got 10 out of 10
#
and the teacher was very good
#
who used to teach every day
#
it was a very classic thing
#
eventually changed my life
#
so these days in Shah Jahanpur
#
we used to ride a cycle
#
because the scooter was a luxury
#
there were a few businessmen
#
who later became businessmen
#
but what we used to do daily
#
when we go to study physics
#
we used to copy that register
#
after 45 minutes we used to bring tea
#
and in 15 minutes we used to explain
#
we have studied maths also
#
we used to call him Munni bhai
#
his name was Muneshwar Singh
#
he used to dictate maths
#
that we were in so much darkness
#
that maths is getting dictated
#
and we are becoming fools for 2 years
#
and we are not even questioning
#
because we are happy in that environment
#
they are studying here, they are studying there
#
the good teacher who used to try
#
we used to think that he is the fool
#
what hard work he is doing
#
you had to break so much conditioning
#
I felt that it was a lost fight
#
when I went to coaching the first day
#
people were asking every question
#
first they were saying it in English
#
we thought that we are left behind
#
we will not be able to raise this
#
the boys from good schools
#
they used to think that
#
we have improved mechanical in IIT Kanpur
#
we did not have that vision
#
the exposure of arts was not such
#
that it is possible to study
#
and as soon as you study from UP board
#
Delhi University is over for you
#
we did not know that it is possible
#
engineering is today's guitar
#
because of Hindi medium
#
I remember there was a boy in coaching
#
the teacher Trivedi asked him
#
we read it like a story
#
something different in English
#
we used to remember the formula
#
I don't know trigonometry
#
he used to do something
#
he used to know the question
#
but he could not tell it in English
#
that he was saying conductor
#
that he was speaking in physics
#
the question of social system
#
that we are left behind
#
I knew from the first day
#
that I am not suitable for IIT
#
I was angry that the one I studied in school
#
now I see when I talk to
#
old friends of Shah Jahanpur
#
some have become writers
#
some have become clerks
#
some have become juggars
#
someone has opened a shop
#
but a very big audience
#
Shah Jahanpur is a subset of the whole world
#
there are 60 such cities
#
now even if the exposure
#
will increase in visual form
#
but all those people are not in the main strip competition
#
he is coming in the 12th
#
I have already coached with that guy
#
but I did not understand that
#
I was angry that we are left behind
#
and I felt that we are getting more behind
#
because in coaching also we are getting free
#
that why I do not know English
#
but I did not do anything about that anger
#
all the energy that was generated from anger
#
then I found this book of Rajneesh
#
then Vivekanand also read that
#
but Vivekanand did not drown
#
seemed like a story to me
#
because there is a disadvantage of reading Rajneesh
#
that you understand that all the races
#
so the truth that you should open a little late
#
that I started opening at the age of 17
#
that wins is the most defeated
#
this is what Rajneesh tells you
#
so you think that even the Prime Minister is a defeated person
#
in my case in the race of Rajneesh
#
I thought what will he get on this earth
#
that is a beautiful realization
#
it is a realization you can come at
#
after being a winner at the age of 50
#
or you can figure it out at 20
#
because you think you are losing
#
and I think that you know this
#
in your story at this point
#
where you are feeling that we have been left behind
#
you went to Roorkee and you did engineering
#
you did MBA in Simba in Pune
#
I studied in Pune, it is a damn good college
#
and though not there obviously
#
so one, how did you turn yourself
#
around and manage to get on the track
#
like you had to go on the same track
#
and second, what you are saying is
#
you said earlier that actually
#
in hindsight you think that the Hindi medium
#
good and I was also thinking as you
#
were talking that if you didn't do Hindi medium
#
if you did English medium
#
if it wasn't that difficult for you
#
maybe you would be a completely different person today
#
one more thing happened in Lucknow
#
when we came to do coaching
#
in every family there is an uncle
#
who takes you to a different level
#
at that time you feel very bad
#
that he made a sugar cane machine
#
and he used to extract more than 5%
#
he must have made it in 35,000
#
at least 100-200 sugar canes
#
he made money in the 90s
#
and after that he became famous in this country
#
so he used to work in a company
#
one superiority complex
#
that he knows English very well
#
and everything can be done in English
#
was right in his world view
#
but overall it was not right
#
but at that time his hangover was
#
that when I came to do coaching
#
he used to live under the house
#
because of those people he had a house
#
which we used to live in the paper mill colony
#
so when he used to see me
#
I used to feel that this man is not seeing me
#
he is seeing the failure in my soul
#
but he didn't leave any fault
#
so that thing made me very restless
#
the anxiety of going to
#
IIT Kanpur was very intense
#
because until you feel worthless
#
until you feel completely wasted
#
that his child was also coaching
#
he must have gone somewhere to meet someone
#
we had to go to IIT Kanpur
#
but people make you meet such people
#
so I still don't remember
#
the name of the professor
#
he said that America is so advanced
#
that even the headline we are reading
#
so I thought what nonsense
#
what he feels in coaching
#
I will tell you the same thing
#
the biography of Harivansh Raya Bachchan
#
so he went to a doctor in Allahabad
#
Harivansh Raya Bachchan
#
he didn't have any medicine
#
so when we were returning
#
we had to go to a relative's hospital
#
so his son also stayed with me
#
he said that what we taught you
#
you forgot all the values
#
he said something like this
#
I would have disappeared
#
that man thought me worthless
#
that I will prove this man wrong
#
that he made me feel every day
#
he didn't say it directly
#
because your father is not with you
#
your mother will come for coaching
#
like the hero is coming
#
there is a mother on the bed
#
sister is not getting married
#
and my mother also hopes
#
because everyone is in it
#
you are pitching a concept
#
now everything is diluted
#
so you know there is no difference
#
not directly or indirectly
#
I felt that I have to prove this man wrong
#
so I used all my energy
#
I was in a private college
#
so I got 11000 rank after 2 years
#
nothing happened after 1 year
#
then there was a special paper
#
nothing happened in that too
#
and in college of engineering
#
I got 2 batches admission
#
in 1999 I got 1st batch
#
that I can get that rank
#
because when I left home
#
and ragging was done well
#
it was heard in the hostel
#
our hostel phone got damaged
#
used to come in senior hostel
#
those who are called in senior hostel
#
so those whose name is announced
#
Divya Prakash Dubey 214
#
so my father used to call me daily
#
because the time I was in Allahabad
#
if I had spoken 1000 words
#
there were few Osho fans
#
one from Benaras, one from Shatrudan
#
and the next change in my life
#
because if you are studying in private college
#
then you are a failure for 2 years
#
even after 2 years you are studying in private college
#
in which placement has not been done yet
#
because the first batch is not ready for placement
#
and from the first semester
#
the placement has not been done yet
#
then our senior batch was done
#
then the next batch was done
#
in our batch there were 4 people
#
but when the failure person went there for 2 years
#
I liked it because of two reasons
#
one was an ordinary city
#
Varsha Vashisht was the heroine
#
this is our Shah Jahanpur
#
then she gave a book called Shekhar Ek Jeevani
#
as people can recite poetry for hours
#
I was Shekhar Ek Jeevani
#
and during that time I used to read books
#
life is better than death
#
life is better than death
#
this line changed my life
#
even if someone's leg is cut
#
even then if I tell him to die
#
he will say I want to live
#
I thought this is amazing
#
life was not open before
#
Shekhar Ek Jeevani had a line
#
type is made in schools
#
at that time private colleges were ISO certified
#
so I thought we are making a product
#
this is a big thing in life
#
I could recite his lines
#
left a different impact on me
#
senior credit in my life
#
that he gave me those books and never asked for them
#
even today I have the version of those books
#
so it was a failure of 2 years
#
and here there were 2-4 people like me
#
because our school was not like that
#
there was a place called
#
so I thought what is happening here
#
so there was my friend Muktesh
#
because he also studied in Trivang
#
and he was fast in studies
#
and we also met in the same place
#
so that was done in the literary committee
#
so I got to know for the first time
#
that there is something called literary committee
#
so there I saw how people were speaking
#
it was a very random topic
#
so he did not even participate in it
#
I wanted to see what people were saying
#
like it is a topic like a towel
#
so he shouted from the stage
#
that now we are coming to say
#
and their topic is Balan
#
so I had to prepare for 1 minute
#
I said what is there on Balan
#
because of which my life changed
#
that for thousands of years
#
whether it is Sita Ji's time
#
in our stories women have been tortured
#
and after so much torture
#
the first weapon that women have taken is Balan
#
I don't know how this line sparkled
#
I said that is different
#
everyone knew that there is a guy
#
who spoke so well on Balan
#
so the next debate was uniform civil code
#
so what is uniform civil code
#
I thought there is some code for clothes
#
so I knew that my father is in the constitution
#
someone told me he is in the constitution
#
so when I went to write the name in the debate
#
whether it is for or against
#
this was the first time I came to know
#
the concept of for against
#
so when I went to write
#
I saw 12 people's names
#
write my name and write against me
#
I don't know anything about the topic
#
then I went and asked my father
#
so I spoke on uniform civil code
#
and that is why I remember the debate
#
whatever I spoke against
#
there were two brothers in that mall
#
who were debaters of Allahabad
#
so I thought this is a good chance
#
so from inside you are getting confidence
#
so from there whatever I spoke in the debate
#
so he asked the question
#
whoever got the first prize
#
I didn't have to answer
#
because there are 1000 points against me
#
so I said this and that
#
I took the paper and patted it
#
I said I have been showing you the moon
#
from my hand for so long
#
you think my hand is the moon
#
and because it was a common hit
#
I said whatever I say on this
#
this is what he was saying for 3 minutes
#
I got a lot of confidence
#
the clap was the first time
#
then all of us were free
#
and Gyan Chaturvedi is a writer
#
I used to keep buying books
#
like there are so many books in this room
#
if most of the books are not read
#
so my theory that Taleb justified
#
that 100 books in your library
#
100 books in your library is your potential knowledge
#
I used to buy a lot of books
#
so there was a book called Murgah
#
Prakati Pe Utaaru Bharat
#
in that two people are taking India
#
so when the soldier asks what is it
#
they say India, golden bird
#
he says is it smuggling
#
or the leader is saying why will they take India
#
Muktesh did a little theatre
#
and Prakati Pe Utaaru Bharat made our version
#
and we were all 6 people who were looted in life
#
all of us did coaching for 2 years
#
who had a utensil shop in Kashipur
#
you are entering the college in 26 years
#
so it is a different level of failure
#
so all of us when we did the play
#
the play was a skit of 20-22 minutes
#
and it was the 3rd year
#
and there were 600-700 people
#
and when there was a clap
#
in that moment it got solved
#
even now when I go on stage
#
the moment of college of engineering
#
and we got free from something
#
that we have this magic
#
there is something that is sticking
#
but I think that moment
#
shekhar ek jeevani's contribution
#
and also my enmity with
#
I felt that we are not as failure
#
as the world is accepting us
#
that if that doesn't happen then nothing happens
#
because we discovered that
#
so when we meet in Hindi medium
#
Prakati pe Utaaru gave us
#
that moment is not given
#
that moment we have to snatch
#
many times like I used to read
#
India Today and all these interviews
#
Prakati Pratyogata Darpan used to come in magazines
#
so I like to read those IAS interviews
#
so in that one IAS was made
#
Anurag Shravas, he was a topper from maths
#
and later he became a DM
#
and when I was working in telecom
#
he was DM of Kanpur Dehat
#
because Kanpur is the only city where there are two DMs
#
Dehat is different from the city
#
when I used to read those interviews
#
I used to see that when new people come to the job
#
so what happened is that they got caught in the line
#
where they should get something for free
#
and there they became fake
#
they look like students
#
who are around 25-26 years old
#
and there they suspended 4 people
#
so I felt that this is the power
#
this should happen in life
#
because I used to feel that my father was very limited
#
I used to live with my uncle
#
he used to give loans to small scale industries
#
so I used to live with my uncle
#
I will not take his name
#
he had a reporter set in Amarujala
#
he used to take Rs.100-150 from Amarujala
#
and the next day his photo used to come
#
and he used to tell his uncle about the loan
#
so when it came in the paper, my father's name was not mentioned
#
the definition of success for me
#
I used to tell my mother that my father does not do anything
#
why his name is not mentioned in the paper
#
whatever the name of the paper is
#
I am not saying the name of the paper
#
but he used to show his children
#
that his father's name is mentioned
#
why his name is not mentioned
#
so for me the meaning of success for many days
#
is that those whose name is mentioned in the newspaper
#
there is a half page interview
#
a very detailed interview
#
when they came and they were not in touch
#
so their family discovered that
#
so they messaged me on Facebook
#
I told them that because of my uncle
#
their life got completed
#
I thought that not being in the newspaper is a big deal
#
today even that dream of mine got broken
#
that finally those people discovered the newspaper
#
there is one thing left
#
that for the Hindi medium
#
like when I got into Symbiosis
#
those two years were different struggles
#
because after doing engineering
#
but I started walking in Infosys thesis
#
and there was a funny thing
#
that if you solved 10 out of 10 in Infosys paper
#
then your question wouldn't have been there
#
because they used to do upper cutoff
#
because they used to know that
#
if you solve 10 out of 10, you will get rid of it
#
so out of 10, 7 or 8 questions had to be solved
#
and I gave interviews to all of them
#
but when I used to give interviews
#
because I was very anxious
#
that this engineering world is not for me
#
so I remember very well
#
when the college was going to end in December 2004
#
and the education system of this country is so interesting
#
that my interest in engineering
#
used to decrease every semester
#
and in the first semester I got my back
#
and my numbers used to increase every semester
#
because I understood the trick
#
and it started from 57% or 59%
#
and by the end of the year
#
by the end of December 2004
#
I had a posting in Banaras
#
and that Naubatpur check post
#
is a very heavy weight check post
#
you don't have time to breathe
#
and they used to head there
#
so I thought today I will tell them that
#
I will not do engineering
#
I will do something else
#
so they didn't get time everyday
#
because they were so busy
#
so I used to stay there every evening
#
at the government house in Lanka
#
so I used to take 5 rupees from there
#
so I used to come to Assi Ghat every day
#
and I used to sit there every evening for 2-3 hours
#
Banaras doesn't open like that
#
is that when we used to go on leave
#
we didn't see Ghat like that
#
I used to come to Ghat and sit alone
#
I used to take tea and sit
#
Arts students used to sit here
#
and an uncle used to eat paan
#
on the third or fourth day
#
I thought it was getting repeated
#
this uncle used to eat paan like that
#
I used to make arts like that
#
so a foreigner who was leaving from here
#
this woman was leaving like that
#
I got timelessness in that moment in Banaras
#
I still have a big decision in my life
#
that I will take Assi Ghat
#
that's why Assi Ghat is so prominent in that book
#
because it is my tribute
#
although I haven't mentioned it like that
#
because there is a story in Banaras
#
that whoever you want to see, you can see
#
so that story becomes urban legend
#
when you are waiting for magic
#
even if you don't have magic
#
you still feel it is magic
#
if you want to go to a station
#
if you want to write a story
#
then maybe you can get a story
#
then the question itself fell down
#
I talked so much that I will quit engineering
#
I came and did engineering
#
and at that time someone topped me with a Hindi video
#
when I am telling you a couple of things
#
because in 2005 my biggest question
#
that the biggest dream of India
#
now your friends who are going for a job
#
and I didn't get a job after seeing 10 interviews in Noida
#
I still go through sector 16 Noida
#
so I think I was standing in the crowd of 1000 people
#
in the walk-in, in the summer, in June
#
and in the walk-in there were interviews of 100 people
#
and there was no selection
#
900 people used to fail every day
#
every day this is the story of failure
#
then the day my dream came true
#
that day there was a company in Gurgaon
#
so we got stuck, changed the bus and took an auto
#
and in that company we came to know that it was a job of 6000
#
maybe I won't call it arrogance
#
sometimes you get to know in multiple options
#
that this is not the case
#
that day I was lying on the bed, I am back in Lucknow
#
I said I will do something else
#
I didn't know if I will do MBA or whatever
#
and it wasn't the Subhash Chandra Bose story
#
that we were told to stop ICS and then leave
#
here it is the winner top
#
like the stories of Rajneesh helped me in this term
#
that there is a bear, the one with grapes
#
so what is the normal story of Rajneesh
#
and when it doesn't find it, it says that the grapes are sour
#
Rajneesh has extended this story
#
so he said that the fox jumps one day
#
and while jumping she tastes the grapes
#
and she knows that the grapes are sour
#
I thought that this is the story of Subhash Chandra Bose
#
if you do it and leave, you grow up
#
but I said no, what is the point of leaving without doing it
#
which is the benefit of studying
#
when I was in Kota engineering college
#
I must have had 10-15 kilos of Osho times
#
so the Osho times of Rajneesh
#
and I didn't study in the paper
#
my friends were so good that
#
I used to get 20 units of that number
#
and I am gifted, if I remember something
#
the ones I used to listen to, they used to get more numbers
#
they used to abuse me a lot
#
that how can you do it by listening
#
so I used to listen to them
#
and I used to come there
#
even though it was not like
#
I wasn't bothered in exams
#
my condition was very bad
#
but still I used to listen
#
and understand how to do it
#
I am telling you that I had cracked it
#
when I was in sales, I had cracked it
#
but one thing was constant
#
that all the fights that we were fighting
#
as a Hindi medium or as a unit
#
we were fighting to make
#
our place in this world
#
even in engineering college
#
and when I reached M.B.A
#
there were two people in Hindi medium
#
one was my friend Bharat and the other one was me
#
so you think that the Hindi medium guys
#
who were in class with me
#
sometimes in SIM voices like B.M. or S.C.M.H.R.D
#
there are many ways to come
#
there are many mountains
#
it will take a lifetime
#
their children might be able to come
#
so that is very difficult
#
I don't know if it happened in my case
#
it is different but it is not easy
#
when you go to Lal Bahadur Shastri
#
there was a guy from Jaunpur
#
I remember he had an interview
#
there is an automatic place for them
#
which we will talk about later
#
how pre-booking started in India
#
every time it used to feel like
#
we are making this place
#
when you are making the way for the first time
#
that is why I am not afraid of many things
#
when you are making the way
#
then you are more afraid
#
you know exactly what is going to happen
#
you don't have to be a type
#
you have to be a person
#
that deep down philosophical thought is left
#
so let's take a quick break and have lunch
#
but before that a quick question
#
do you still have all those copies of Osho Times
#
and are you in touch with Shatrughna
#
Shatrughna is my senior and Vikas is my 12th friend
#
incidentally he lives in Bangalore
#
so I said no sir I am going to Whitefield
#
you booked in my name what can I do
#
and Shatrughna lives there
#
you won't believe but I have 6000 numbers in my mobile
#
there is a retailer in which I have sold recharge
#
and you asked me if I am in touch
#
so I haven't read Rajneesh
#
here I have started reading
#
his Gita and many people
#
listen to him but I still like reading
#
his voice was very good
#
I think the voice of two people in this country
#
and more than the voice
#
the magic was in the pause
#
the voice of Atal Vihari Vajpayee
#
and the third person I try
#
who is a big storyteller in Pakistan
#
but I think I will copy her
#
if I remember her I will forget
#
in Mumbai it is very difficult to meet people
#
every 15 days we abuse the film industry
#
so I told him I am waiting
#
my father has checked the lock 4 times
#
and I don't know what happens
#
they open the lock and leave
#
will be exactly like our father
#
and I told him we are his copy
#
this is what makes us unique
#
even though we have our own individuality
#
but it is exactly the same
#
and suddenly we both are thinking
#
the way you speak with love
#
it becomes like your father or mother
#
which is so weird in a way
#
either you are running away from them
#
you are becoming like them
#
I don't know what is the science
#
everyone has a repulsion
#
anyway sir I will keep talking
#
you know you put that thought in my head
#
that one day we will also get old
#
we used to tell her to get this for her
#
this is Dippy's or Neetu's
#
that she wants to play our video game
#
or she wants to eat our ice cream
#
I will become like that
#
on that note I will read out a beautiful poem
#
I resemble everyone but myself
#
and sometimes see in shop windows
#
despite the well known laws of optics
#
the portrait of a stranger
#
date unknown often signed in a corner
#
through 4 webinars spread over 4 weekends
#
I share all I know about the craft and practice
#
there are many exercises, much interaction
#
and a lovely and lively community at the end of it
#
the course costs Rs 10,000 plus GST
#
if you are interested head on over to register
#
doesn't require God given talent
#
just a willingness to work hard
#
and a clear idea of what you need to do
#
welcome back to the seen and the unseen
#
I am still chatting with Divya Prakash Dube
#
on his life and his work
#
and I want to dive a lot deeper into your life
#
I want to pick on a couple of themes
#
that struck me when you were talking
#
about your time in school and college
#
and you know you mentioned
#
how there were sexual undertones
#
how everyone was constricted
#
and there are three sort of
#
things that I have been
#
one of them is something my good friend Ajay Shah often says
#
he says that one of India's biggest problems is that
#
men don't know how to talk to women
#
I realized when I did an episode with
#
Snigdha Poonam who has written a book called Dreamers
#
is where she points out
#
that in small towns of India
#
young men are going through
#
she wrote the book 5-6 years ago but I think it's still true today
#
are going through a crisis where
#
you know the women are coping
#
with the changing world a little better
#
they don't really know how to sort of think about
#
themselves, think about the world, think about women
#
data point is something that one
#
and I have also heard while traveling through
#
across Southeast Asia this is really interesting
#
according to sex workers
#
sex tourists they want to avoid at all costs
#
are Indians because apparently
#
Indian men are the most violent
#
they are absolutely brutal
#
they will treat every woman like
#
they have never seen a woman before and they will go completely
#
so it is you know not just the case
#
that yeah we are a sexually repressed society
#
and part of it is because you have a certain
#
and a lot of the country is very poor
#
and you might think that other countries also
#
but India me kuch baat hai jo
#
it's a tougher problem than it is
#
elsewhere, it's a naughtier problem
#
and you've actually been in those mahal
#
and you know I also went to a boys school
#
so I totally empathize with all of those
#
things where you have a complete lack of knowledge of
#
what the frickin and what anatomy
#
you know from there you kind of move on
#
journey where you've had that
#
mobility and like you correctly said ki
#
zyada tar jo log hai aap lucky the hai aap nikal gaye
#
zyada tar jo log hai usse me fashe rehte
#
they believe they are worthless and they
#
live those lives full of
#
those kinds of frustrations and so on and so
#
forth so tell me a bit about
#
what you've seen there is it changing
#
modern times like just now a few minutes
#
ago at lunch you were mentioning that
#
you know a lot of the people
#
in the filmy or TV world who are
#
from a village don't know that village
#
anymore because it has changed so much and
#
therefore you always try to look for young
#
people who know what the reality is
#
today and things are changing
#
so far so give me a sense of that change
#
the extent of the problem and B the change
#
main jab aap yeh sawaal puch rahe hain
#
in shairon me bade ho rahe the
#
toh jaise doh tarike ke ladko
#
me kar usko me categorize karoon
#
sex kar liya hota tha kisi bhi form
#
me ya kisi bhabhi ne pakad liya aapko
#
ya kisi aunty ne pakad liya aapko
#
jaise jai aade ke mai saad ek dost tha
#
ho kabhi shaadi nahi miss karta tha
#
hum kya shaadi me ja rahe ho
#
kya yaha pe kyunki shaadi me jati
#
aap us din ka aapka khel na ruk gaya
#
aapke routine me break aage
#
hum toh isi baat se parishan rahete the
#
kyunki baaki saari coaching me chhod deta tha
#
hum wo nahi chhod na chahte the
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
aaj bhi kahi baar na sunday ko jo 5-6
#
the game is all in a veil
#
we are the ones who google the most
#
we are the ones who google the most
#
infact i had written a dialogue in a show
#
that was the story of a sexologist
#
and the people who come there
#
if you go then everything is under pressure
#
but if you see this in this hall
#
when i was in this hall
#
they were in that format
#
this concept was very less in those cities
#
that women will go to work
#
still in those cities where women are going to work
#
what are they mostly? teachers?
#
maybe a few people will be clerks in some office
#
then things get different
#
then it becomes a special case
#
in general what are they?
#
in general they are teachers
#
they are dependent on a man
#
who is running your house
#
so this reality which has changed in big cities
#
which has changed in the lives of our friends
#
like when i go to pick up my child at 2.30
#
if there are 30 children in that class
#
then there are 2-3 fathers
#
rest 25-26 of them are women
#
is that i am standing with them
#
i will not take his name
#
but like he gave work to many people
#
although he studied well
#
and as a writer you talk a lot
#
and he had a typical style
#
like you gave work to someone
#
as soon as you start giving money to someone
#
the finances of his life
#
so you feel like you are owning your life
#
which is called Shaisdhi
#
he used to do this work with so much shaisdhi
#
that nothing used to happen for 6-8 months
#
after that he used to come out
#
whoever is earning money
#
and when we in our society
#
will not see women's respect
#
because it seems like it is not a job
#
and now this generation
#
that is also a very urban concept
#
so they are happy in that
#
they tell the principal to cut his salary
#
this is the biggest thing
#
he gets an undue advantage
#
when he sees a woman's respect
#
he will always consider that woman
#
whether we are getting her food
#
whether we are making her sleep on the bed
#
and then according to us
#
you get a sense of power
#
and she is so deep rooted
#
because you are seeing your teacher the same way
#
like we had a running joke
#
in school where we were studying
#
that there was a teacher
#
and when we used to make fun of her
#
we used to say that it was all because of her
#
but we used to get pleasure in this
#
because everything was like this
#
and when the world is changing
#
and the same guy is watching the reel
#
when he is watching the reel
#
so he is doing it for his following
#
whatever the other person is doing
#
you think that is the truth
#
when you are sitting in Bali
#
in a village in Bali or in a village in Ghazipur
#
is coming in his memories
#
so he thinks that this is how it is
#
so when someone hits his stereotype
#
so the story that I had written
#
or tried to write in such a way
#
that the same thing was not in the reel format
#
that was in Manohar stories
#
so there was a question
#
it was a question of 6-6 pages
#
and when he went home I liked it
#
so by mistake he spilled the tea on me
#
and told me to go and change my clothes
#
and until I wash my clothes
#
the clothes will get dry
#
and when I went to change in the washroom
#
I saw that there was no seat in the bathroom
#
and he was not wearing anything
#
because he used to tell you the soft porn
#
every story had 3 lines
#
that come in the newspapers
#
because you are telling a titillating thing
#
but what happens with this
#
that the boy in class 7
#
when a female teacher hits him
#
he thinks that every teacher is like this
#
and the story starts from the point
#
that two kids are sitting and studying
#
and now this boy thinks that
#
so he goes to study tuitions
#
and the tea he gives by mistake
#
he thinks why is the tea not falling
#
if your sister goes to your house
#
you are not afraid of the society
#
you are afraid of yourself
#
because you are that society
#
who is 3 years younger than me
#
she was sent to class 6 for the first time
#
when there was no mobile
#
she was sent with a pin in her pocket
#
but it doesn't happen in every house
#
I have seen educated people
#
maybe it is a crime patrol effect
#
if you have done something like this
#
or your friends have done this
#
like when you get on the train
#
the boys try to take advantage
#
it is not only the boy's fault
#
it is the whole environment's fault
#
the whole environment's fault
#
who takes a high moral ground
#
maybe it is his big fault
#
that there is something wrong
#
it means you are a part of that
#
the joke that we used to do
#
when I was in Shahjahpur
#
someone is telling us that
#
maybe she was in depression
#
then the easiest story is made
#
we have heard so many stories
#
then all the lions in us
#
we don't know how to treat them
#
so many times we get so impressed
#
that when we say our own
#
and my own and I can slap him
#
then we feel that's the way to love
#
when we were watching the blue film
#
because we were shaping
#
we used to have stories
#
that brother went to work
#
that the world view of all boys school
#
was that if a sister in law
#
looked at you with a smile
#
and told you to take coriander
#
coriander is just a pretext
#
the real game is yet to happen
#
and that hasn't changed in the society
#
that we try to take advantage of
#
whether it's real or not
#
they are making fun of us
#
because we have considered women
#
that daughter in law is a gift
#
that we are leaving something
#
that this house is a jewellery
#
we have made it a fake society
#
in India I think it's more
#
that is written here is not that much
#
women said that we don't do anything
#
in Mumbai in the last 10 years
#
80% of the story is the same
#
her husband married her
#
because she was her friend's wife
#
and one day in the morning
#
and he didn't have any identity
#
in that house because he had two daughters
#
because you consider her property
#
then you know that she is doing something else
#
in the structure of our family
#
after that who removes the plate
#
and who washes the clothes
#
like I saw a video on TED talk
#
in which they said that
#
as the washing machine came in the country
#
like their physical labour got reduced
#
their participation increased
#
so we are in a very early stage
#
like when we were studying
#
there was not a single girl in mechanical
#
now I see that in engineering college
#
there are girls in mechanical too
#
they are small but they are happening
#
you will see that it is a very long fight
#
like when women start earning
#
it is not a sexual issue
#
running the house is an issue
#
whose representation is that
#
and because the way we open up
#
we don't have sex education in this country
#
when they see that this man is
#
it feels like what medicine
#
should we take to become Shaktimaan
#
we are opening up like that
#
whether it is in the reading world
#
the most popular is the home video
#
and we are alive in the real space
#
there is a guy in my writer's room
#
and he is from Darbhanga
#
he watches a live video website
#
when you give her instructions
#
so someone did something
#
he said that he has learned one hour on comics
#
that you are on such a website
#
whatever you are doing for money
#
but he had that knowledge
#
so he thought that for the first time
#
he saw her beyond the object
#
he said that he has given me knowledge on economics
#
girls will have more empowerment
#
our sister from yesterday
#
when she will participate
#
because she doesn't have the issue of teaching
#
and her mindset doesn't change in 15-20 years
#
I will be able to fall in love with a Muslim girl
#
because by then all the marriages will start
#
and it has opened up in a different space
#
many people fall in love with filters
#
that they should send them to Pakistan
#
you send a Muslim girl to Pakistan
#
Brahmins will be beheading Thakurs
#
otherwise we can't operate
#
how someone behaves at home
#
the behavior of that home
#
because it is very normalized
#
now see this happened in Corona
#
when people were together
#
they used to be out for 10 hours
#
domestic violence case has increased
#
because you are not able to sustain
#
you are taking out your frustration
#
and justifying it in the name of love
#
what you said about we need a Pakistan
#
you know the political theorist Karl Schmidt
#
once said that in politics you need an other
#
so you are absolutely right
#
that if you remove one other
#
to some extent it is true in society
#
but our society is already
#
and you know you have written a lovely story
#
called Lolita about a girl
#
who is actually making eye contact with people
#
and looks at it differently
#
one of the thoughts that strikes me is that
#
the men are not able to cope with this changing world
#
they are still by and large
#
I am not referring to you elite English speakers
#
by and large sexually repressed looking at women
#
which is just multiplied
#
you have all the world's knowledge available to you
#
you have all your feminist frames
#
which you can pick up by osmosis
#
from the internet or elsewhere
#
so I think women have a little bit more of a
#
but there is a fundamental tragedy
#
which I think is multiplied in India
#
the fundamental tragedy is that
#
men and women fundamentally want different things
#
the question is what equilibria
#
you come out with in different societies
#
at different times to manage that
#
like marriage is one form of equilibrium
#
for example and that is a particular
#
conception of marriage and one could argue
#
that it has become completely outdated
#
especially for women in
#
Bharat, marriage is basically hell
#
it is the end of your life, it is slavery
#
it is just horrendously bad
#
that problem seems to me to be
#
amplified that men and women
#
just want fundamentally different things
#
and for women it must be so difficult to come to terms
#
with the fact that most men
#
have that particular gaze and that is
#
the key thing and they are always
#
so you know what have you seen
#
of all these changes expressing themselves
#
storytelling because I remember when tiktok came
#
one of the things that excited me about it was
#
that I felt I was getting
#
to a window to an India which I intellectually
#
knew was around me but I couldn't see it
#
and I felt I was getting a window to that
#
and Bollywood doesn't give me that window, your mainstream
#
television won't give you that window
#
but I felt that creator
#
produced content was giving you that window
#
so what is your sense in terms of
#
self expression, in terms of social
#
how all these tensions express themselves
#
oh my god, that is a big question
#
when you were asking, I thought
#
have changed, like in Delhi
#
when a girl comes from Patna and Baliya
#
there is a group where you feel
#
freedom for the first time
#
being free and feeling free
#
are two different things
#
that you are feeling free
#
and you feel that you can go anywhere
#
you can wait for a long time
#
so there are a lot of boys
#
and when I am saying this
#
I am not saying that this is not generalizing
#
so those people are very attractive to you
#
and you can do anything
#
I have seen this over the period of time
#
that many people do it so cleverly
#
as soon as you feel free
#
a world is opening up for you
#
there is one thing that will break the conditioning
#
this friendship with the boys
#
and whatever you can do with anyone
#
you get guilt free from this
#
from where you came from
#
but they are twisting it in their own way
#
that both want something different, that is absolutely right
#
because no matter how much
#
as friends discuss many times
#
like in the last question
#
like you are talking to a girl
#
and you are very in love with that girl
#
what does it mean to be in love
#
that you don't think about sex with her
#
because she is above that
#
sex is a very secondary thing
#
you are so in love in 16-17 years
#
you have to hold her hand
#
what more do you want on this earth
#
that you are spending the evening and holding hands
#
there is a lot of dirt in our minds
#
and they used a typical term
#
that whether you got it or not
#
whether you got it or not
#
whether you got sex or not
#
how our language has defined it
#
whether you got it or not
#
it means that you have to take something
#
and give something to someone
#
these two people are equally involved
#
the colloquial language defines
#
whether you got it or not
#
it means that something has to be achieved
#
that's why they discuss the numbers
#
everything has to be taken to a different level
#
is asking you whether you got it or not
#
if you didn't get it then you are a fool
#
what time are you spending
#
even if they eventually get married
#
and if you didn't get it then
#
and especially the people coming from our side
#
they do it in such a crude form
#
maybe the Delhi people don't say it like that
#
this thing doesn't exist in this form
#
but let me take you back
#
an MMS incident happened
#
and that too I am calling it an incident
#
because in my mind it is an incident
#
whereas two people are involved
#
in Pantnagar there used to be a personality test
#
there were many weird questions
#
I had reached the finals
#
the thing is that there was a bias
#
in every college that they make their own people win
#
and they asked me different questions
#
so next year our juniors went
#
so they asked them a question
#
what is the good thing about it
#
I mean if someone asks you on stage
#
what is the good thing about it
#
because last year when I went to the finals
#
just to clear the context
#
so I was asked a question
#
and you bring your Christian girlfriend
#
home to talk about marriage
#
now you have to explain to your father
#
so what will you explain
#
this was asked when I was there
#
that our Hindu religion
#
and a Christian is also a human
#
and the narration I gave
#
I didn't get the first prize
#
and later I understood that I didn't get the best
#
so when I didn't get it
#
I was restless for a long time
#
and I gave the right answer
#
that Hindu religion is inclusive
#
and there are so many people
#
and later I asked my father
#
that this was the situation
#
and I said I gave the right answer
#
so he said repeat the question
#
I told him that I am from a South Indian Brahmin family
#
a typical Christian girlfriend comes
#
and my mother gets angry and leaves
#
and now you have to explain
#
so he said that the answer is very easy
#
in this I had to say that
#
first I will convince my mother
#
that you gave importance to your mother
#
because what is our conditioning
#
that you have to explain to your father
#
you gave the answer of IQ
#
but how much he tells about me
#
so when he asked about DPS
#
we also couldn't refuse
#
questions started coming
#
you are 20 or 25 years old
#
you have seen this world
#
but you haven't seen this world
#
the good or bad thing in DPS
#
those two people are not dependent on this
#
one tells that our society is changing
#
that he can be cool about it
#
which later became very normal
#
the first thing that breaks
#
the question is so broad
#
I mean in patriarchal terms
#
or I couldn't decode that world
#
because some things are already made
#
if we had given importance
#
that they do a lot of work at home
#
it is not an ordinary job
#
so maybe we would have been in a better situation
#
that this is their work
#
so this is wrong on their part
#
that what kind of a mother is this
#
your living by spoiling
#
because you are working all day
#
you are changing the world
#
and the role of a mother is
#
that the children are doing the right thing
#
I think this whole thing starts from there
#
that we are still dealing with it
#
but the man is so clever
#
that he brings everything
#
that you change the means
#
so when he feels freedom for the first time
#
and that is why he is trapping you
#
because he wants to be free from you
#
like what I was saying in the beginning
#
because he knows that if I brainwash him
#
then I will be free from guilt
#
if he really wanted to free you
#
then he wouldn't have been possessive for you
#
he wouldn't have called you his slave
#
he wouldn't have done that
#
but that is his cleverness
#
and people have upgraded that level of cleverness
#
that we, friends, are very deep down
#
that if we are able or not
#
then we should remove it
#
discuss their personal life more
#
those boys still don't have
#
that space like therapy
#
after a point they don't have that discussion
#
I tell all this to my friends
#
he gets an age difference
#
whether you agree or not
#
the details are very difficult
#
then he applies everything
#
that men feel in this country
#
and when you give them money
#
they feel that they have bought them for 2 hours
#
and as soon as you have the thought of buying
#
then the man is so deprived
#
I read somewhere in Rajneesh
#
that there are 3 types of love
#
and when you put the key in the car
#
then the car will work, when you don't
#
then the other type of love is animal love
#
that you have kept a pet
#
and you will take care of the pet
#
like when you feel good
#
that pet will come and love you
#
irrespective of your day
#
in the key type, car or bike or computer
#
will not stop you from loving
#
when you will turn it on, it will be on according to you
#
in the pet type, it is possible that the pet's mood will be off
#
when a man loves a woman and a woman loves a man
#
that I love you, he will tell you to go to hell
#
or even a boy can tell you to go to hell
#
that he can refuse you with love
#
we are not able to take
#
like when I am telling you the answer
#
and that is why the third type of love is the most difficult
#
because there is no room for no
#
and that is what makes it interesting
#
there was a boy with us
#
he used to say that he used to love someone every third week
#
and love every third week
#
because no girl used to listen to him
#
because as he used to speak
#
like he used to tell someone that you love
#
and he used to hold him and say
#
I am sorry that I can't do this
#
and I have come to study
#
so he used to scold her
#
and he was from Bareilly
#
but I think what was his mentality
#
that he was begging for love
#
so for his ego satisfaction
#
when he used to come and tell his friend
#
he didn't say that he refused
#
he used to say that he was also scolded
#
even though we don't exist in this form
#
that how can a girl refuse
#
and you are not able to take it properly
#
we are struggling with this
#
so about this friend of yours from Bareilly
#
and by the way whoever is listening to Bareilly
#
they must be thinking that he knows DPA
#
so you know it's such a beautiful story
#
because in one moment he is
#
confessing love and like 30 seconds later
#
he is abusing his mother
#
which shows that number one
#
I told my friends the other day
#
everything is everything
#
so I was sitting with my crew
#
Ajay, Namsitha and Vaishnav
#
and I said that you know what
#
commonly people say that you should never
#
take your friends for granted
#
but the kind of friendships that I want
#
and that I feel for you guys
#
is that I want you to take me for granted
#
and I want to take you for granted
#
because I want it to be unconditional
#
because I never want to have to calculate
#
that if I behave like this, this may happen
#
that I can be myself with people
#
so just like a larger question
#
on relationships because
#
when I was much younger you took
#
all of these for granted, you had friends
#
I mean you take the relationship for granted
#
but you just assume that yes there will be friends, lovers
#
there will be relationships etc etc
#
grows older you start getting more intentional
#
about them, you start thinking
#
about the meaning of friendship
#
you know in October Junction you have the
#
two lovers musing over how nice it is
#
that you can sit for hours and not
#
have to talk to each other, there is no expectation
#
that you have to talk to them
#
what are your thoughts on the way relationships
#
have evolved in your life and how
#
you think about them, like I am sure at one
#
for a large part of all our lives we take
#
our parents for granted and then
#
they become three dimensional people and we start
#
thinking of them differently, so what has
#
your approach been, like is it something
#
that you are intentional about, do you often
#
think that you know spend time
#
thinking that this is the kind of husband
#
I want to be or this is the kind of father I want
#
to be and so on and so forth
#
I will tell you about friendship, like
#
for us friendship is like
#
out of which two people you like
#
those two people, you don't
#
make this logic why I like these two
#
why I am hanging out with them
#
whoever I had a good friendship with
#
our value was the same or the value of the family
#
was the same, even if that person is different
#
about their life, even if
#
they behave completely differently from me
#
common, there was some kind of
#
constant and taken for granted
#
is that friends are the same, like I think
#
no matter how much money someone makes on this earth
#
no matter how much bill gates are made
#
with whom you are just talking about the past
#
nothing new, so no one can
#
achieve more than this on earth
#
laughing at the same joke 400 times
#
this is life, not beyond this
#
despite that you have to be judged
#
because the old childhood
#
friendship or college friendship works
#
because even then you don't know
#
you haven't become who you are
#
who you are in your self-image that I will become this
#
poetry or Muneer Niazi's
#
that a child who goes to the fair
#
or that or this or that
#
but there is no money and one day
#
when the child grows up and goes to the fair
#
and says that today everyone has money to buy
#
so this is Ibn-e-Inshah's or Muneer Niazi's
#
so when you are 40, 42, 45 years old
#
we used to leave our tuitions
#
used to drop everyone home and bring a U-turn
#
a U-turn of the whole city
#
and when we used to eat patties
#
then there was nothing happier than that
#
the taste of the patties
#
will still come on your lips
#
and I didn't need anything more
#
that I have to do this again tomorrow
#
I have to do this again tomorrow
#
a lot of friendships are lost
#
because it is a matter of time
#
I have taken a conscious effort
#
like any of my friends from school or college
#
and I live near the airport
#
then you will come to the airport an hour before
#
we sit comfortably at the airport
#
my favorite part is there
#
whether it is Starbucks or Beer Cafe
#
so that we can refresh everything
#
because it is not that easy
#
we have written a long story
#
and they had a dream in childhood
#
that we will play in the snow
#
till the after effect of DDLJ
#
we went to a wedding in the middle
#
and one of our friends became a contractor
#
so there may be 2 crore rupees in the account
#
but there is no one to talk to him in the evening
#
there is money but there are no friends
#
because either you or I
#
if there is an authority
#
and especially a big authority
#
then he has to be a gentleman
#
being a gentleman is a position
#
where you run after getting ready every morning
#
being a gentleman does not mean that you are an authority
#
but you cannot be soft in that
#
if you are a DM in the city
#
then your friendship with everyone is over
#
you have to behave as DMs behave
#
but as soon as you come with your friends
#
that if we meet then we meet properly
#
even though we are meeting for 4 hours
#
we are meeting in one evening
#
but they postpone everything
#
as I am telling a friend
#
one of my friends is from India
#
when we reached the M.B.A. we were 2 people from Hindi medium
#
and the good thing about India is that
#
they play poker very well
#
and they played at a different level
#
so this is a small place in India
#
there was a boy who was a primary teacher
#
then every week he used to book a ticket to Goa
#
he used to go there and play casino
#
and he used to go there
#
I think we passed in 2009
#
so it is about 10,11,12
#
must have played beside him without going
#
I was friends with India
#
and when I was in M.B.A in college
#
in the evening I used to ask for 500 rupees
#
and the next day I returned 500 rupees
#
and I used to feed the winner
#
and a boy from Hindi medium
#
I still don't know what the world is
#
so one thing I want to say about India
#
like India goes every week
#
20,000 or 21,000 rupees
#
to stay in Goa for a week or two
#
as it happens every 15 days
#
as soon as it is 22,000 rupees
#
he said what is more to play than that
#
so I said when you are winning
#
then win 1-2 lakh rupees
#
so India told me the biggest truth of life
#
first time I played won 500 rupees
#
then won 5,000 rupees then won 60,000 rupees
#
and then on the last day
#
when I will add sigma below it
#
he said it is not fun to win but to play
#
he said I am enjoying the game
#
that is the profound thing
#
that your friend can explain to you
#
like I always apply his two theories in life
#
like when you have kids
#
you think we will make them this
#
we are making them more
#
so he gave me the right knowledge of life
#
once I had a doubt about a book
#
in fact the line in October
#
our two lives came out in a discussion from India
#
they have no meaning from literature
#
he has seen from village to village
#
your Himesh Reshamia should not happen
#
there should be such people
#
that something like this should not happen to you
#
how the book will behave
#
because you have written three books
#
and you are starting the game
#
so he says DP like a child
#
now he will turn out to be good
#
your fate will turn out to be bad
#
in the process of giving birth to a child
#
you have taken as much fun as you wanted
#
you can give him the environment
#
bad is out of your hands
#
so what if it turns out to be good
#
what if it turns out to be bad
#
one will be sold and you have the best book
#
ten lakhs will be sold and it is the worst book
#
then there should be no difference
#
he said remove this pressure
#
I have written in a preface
#
that I write every book like
#
because I don't take this pressure
#
that this person is writing five books
#
because I am writing that book for the first time
#
I think the relationship with
#
my relationship also changes
#
I am saying his 100th version
#
the stories I have told
#
he tells more than five times
#
like I told Gulzar in an interview
#
it was a very good thing
#
that we all start by copying
#
I have tried in my father's preface
#
you can't do without it
#
because you have to learn to write K
#
then you can go to Kabutar from K
#
and you can go to Kolkata from K
#
but the journey to K will be the same
#
you can't do that separately
#
this whole time is changing
#
that we have scheduled for family
#
because that is also not right
#
but one thing I assure you
#
I stayed here in Diwali in Mumbai
#
because for me this is not a festival
#
we don't celebrate festivals
#
we celebrate it because
#
it is the first time for him
#
it is a very normal thing
#
then we were leaving from Pawai
#
even after knowing so much
#
he couldn't say water's anar
#
when I scold him to read
#
then I realize that my father never told me to read
#
so that relationship changes
#
I didn't see my grandfather
#
and I see myself like him
#
and I see my son like me
#
I don't know the answer
#
these are beautiful answers
#
what a beautiful phrase also
#
many kids think like this
#
it gets beaten out of them
#
and you told a very good story
#
or in one of your interviews
#
I will link it from the show notes
#
and even earlier in this conversation
#
you mentioned the word complexity
#
and your story struck me
#
as such an interesting story
#
where you said imagine there is a thief in the street
#
and a thief has been caught in the street
#
the judge will look at it as
#
but you brought out the point
#
that only a storyteller
#
that this happened a year ago
#
he went to the bank for a loan
#
then he tried to rob it
#
and you built a beautiful story out of it
#
the rest of the people are type
#
the policeman is a type
#
it's a great metaphor for life
#
and that storyteller is a person in this context
#
by which I don't mean to say
#
that only storytellers can be people
#
or all storytellers are necessarily people
#
and nobody else can be a person
#
but you get the broader metaphor
#
and I want to ask about
#
I don't think everybody
#
is drawn towards complexity
#
or drawn towards stories
#
I think many people are happy to be types
#
they get a comfort in it
#
this is the road laid out for me
#
I will get into this groove
#
I have to go to IIT, do IEM
#
join Citibank, become Vice President etc
#
they are happy with that groove
#
they are not curious about anything else
#
they are not reading books, they are not watching movies
#
and there are other people who can simply never do that
#
the circumstances don't matter, we can never do that
#
so give me a little bit about
#
in terms of just looking at the world
#
did you always see yourself as a storyteller
#
are you always appreciating complexity
#
when you mentioned that incident that happened
#
and you said I felt worthless
#
and that's a strong term
#
if you are saying I felt worthless
#
then how are you defining that worth
#
and in different parts of this conversation
#
you said that once you felt worth
#
when you got the applause in College of Engineering, Roorkee
#
lifts off and drops down
#
that could be one source of worth
#
another source of worth could be that
#
you pretend to be a young man and then you see how people treat you
#
and then you are actually the officer
#
you sack five people, that is power
#
another time you spoke about
#
how you thought that you are an important person
#
if your photo comes in a newspaper
#
and there are so many different ways
#
one can look at worth and I look back
#
at my own life and I think honestly for most
#
of my life I defined it wrongly
#
for myself that I would define
#
it by any one of these things
#
which to me are all superficial and they are all
#
wrong and they are all roads to unhappiness
#
how did your sense of worth evolve
#
these are very good questions
#
very good questions and before
#
how does this thing change
#
how does this thing change
#
used to fancy the Prithvi Cafe
#
first you could take a cup of tea there
#
and sit during the day, now you can't sit there
#
because you get a number there
#
and now the cafe operates in a different way
#
on weekdays you can sit for 1-2 hours during the day
#
but now the way you have to sit
#
because there is someone in line
#
every person has to be the same
#
if the country is not the same then why should life be the same
#
if there is nothing like that
#
but once I was there with such friends
#
not much time had passed
#
and I was sitting and it happens that
#
3-4 people were sitting and someone said
#
you paid the bill, gave the card
#
he came and a guy came with the machine
#
and when the bill came, when he was giving the card
#
there is a writer of your name
#
so he asked what have you read
#
I liked one thing very much
#
I had never put it in my
#
and we do it with the eyes of others
#
moment in my imagination
#
so I asked what have you come to Mumbai to do
#
he said that I am struggling with acting
#
and I am doing it for a few days to run the expenses
#
that he did not recognize me by my face
#
the oldest photo of Gulzar sir
#
the relation of the word is with understanding
#
to become the face of understanding
#
that there are writers of your name
#
whatever we are writing
#
I am sending a letter in the sea
#
and some letters are reaching
#
that was the first moment
#
and I did not want to tell him that I am the same
#
because I did not want to spoil his moment
#
but those two or four who were together
#
so I took the photo myself
#
but it was very special
#
I will tell you how it changes the definition
#
or something is going on
#
so one of my wife's friends
#
my wife is very good at this
#
because she still has a group of school and college friends
#
my wife was not there so I had to go
#
otherwise I would have shot her
#
and there was a stand up
#
and I don't normally watch stand up
#
I think this whole idea is very flawed
#
that I am going there with money
#
that when we do bhakshodhi in the hostel
#
I will not watch it with money
#
I will not watch it with money
#
he takes someone in the spot
#
he used to live in Bandra
#
and he came from Benaras
#
and when someone from Benaras used to live in Bandra
#
and he was paying 70-80 thousand rent
#
he used to live in sharing
#
he used to live in sharing
#
so first a man from Benaras
#
I never had any problem with English
#
but when you say fake accent
#
so as soon as I was off
#
and drink so that everything becomes background music
#
so he took me in the spot
#
so he took me in the spot
#
whom I was getting angry with
#
so when comedians get to know
#
do it, you are doing good
#
because he was doing good
#
he said turn on the light
#
because I have already drunk LIT
#
he said do it, you are doing good
#
then the guy from Benaras
#
I told him to turn on the light
#
he said what do you write sir?
#
sheela ki jagani, meh teri diwani
#
I am not good at writing
#
you have to tell me sir
#
gathered his body language
#
I am lucky that you are in the audience
#
and this is a big thing for me
#
that you are in the audience
#
suddenly everyone was like
#
people were asking me how to write a book
#
or the guy from Benaras
#
he did one more thing which irritated me
#
every table where there was a girl
#
after that all the tables
#
didn't recognize me by my face
#
even though there is a photo in the book
#
the cover of the book will be removed
#
and the name will also be removed
#
there will be a few lines
#
and this is the ultimate truth
#
because the name is very temporary
#
and let me tell you one more thing
#
in the book Musafir Gafey
#
I took the names of three characters
#
Sudha, Chandra and Pambi
#
one of the biggest and most popular
#
Hindi books written in 1949
#
written by Dhanveer Bharti
#
the names of the characters are Sudha, Chandra and Pambi
#
I thought I will use this name
#
and the story ended in 3-4 days
#
which I couldn't do in the novel
#
the first novel was very special
#
so when I did it, my friend Vishal Gaurav
#
who runs Darbhanga Public School
#
he was my colleague in the idea
#
so I was very confused whether to keep the name or not
#
because there is no relation with the name
#
in the story, in the characterization
#
because Dhanveer is not there
#
you can't take permission from him
#
he said writers are big people
#
we leave home for our son
#
he is giving the name of the whole world
#
I said he gave the new world
#
I didn't take any permission
#
actually there was no need for permission
#
that I met Pushpa Bharti
#
and she gave me a lot of blessings
#
and people told me to file a case
#
that is a different matter
#
is giving the name of the whole world
#
he gave the name of the whole world
#
this is such a big thing
#
you think that in 400, 200, 150 pages
#
you are seeing this world
#
and I remembered another story
#
when I started reading Ranjeesh's books
#
there is a shop in Lucknow station
#
called Sarvodaya Sahitya
#
there you can find Ranjeesh's
#
and it was in 3-4 parts
#
to give me some discount
#
because there were many shops
#
in fact the uncle who was still in Lanka
#
now he has lost his memory
#
last time I went 2-3 months back
#
then I came to know that uncle
#
he has made me read a lot of books
#
that he is going to read
#
he suggests it with his heart
#
then he told me that he lost his memory
#
so the same Sarvodaya Sahitya uncle
#
I asked him to give me a discount
#
I am taking two, give me a discount
#
so I said I am taking two, why not give
#
the line written in this
#
I am giving you a very cheap book
#
so I thought it is a big deal
#
that a man sitting in a shop
#
and this is very unique in India
#
the mezlose that we read in MBA
#
self-actualization, basic need
#
physiological need and all
#
in India even a rickshaw driver
#
is as close to the truth
#
this makes this country very unique
#
and both of them are so different
#
as you are saying that all the people
#
who did not get this question
#
this is a very good thing that you asked
#
we have been restless from the beginning
#
that what is the meaning of this life
#
that they will live and they are living
#
so we were seeing it that way
#
because this is the truth for 35 years
#
our seniors of 45 years
#
that DP we are very happy
#
that you are doing what you wanted to do from college
#
and this is a big thing in itself
#
it tells about this journey
#
maybe I don't want to do this after 4 years
#
I don't know if this is a success or not
#
the thing is that when I wake up in the morning
#
I don't have to worry about this
#
as I have designed my life
#
there are two more stories from freedom
#
I read and inferred this in different books
#
there is a book by Magbhul Vida Hussain
#
and this happened with me
#
that day I start reading the book
#
so I read this book that night
#
when Hussain was not there
#
so I have all the stories of Hussain
#
but there is one more interesting story
#
that I record in my mind
#
that will be a document
#
Hussain used to go to a tea shop
#
he used to ask for money
#
he used to ask for money
#
he used to tell him that he will make a crore
#
so when Hussain was leaving Indore
#
he gave those two his ten paintings
#
and he actually made them crores
#
Hussain was Magbhul Vida
#
so Hussain used to work
#
in the toy company on 15th August
#
he used to work for 14 hours
#
and when on 15th August
#
everyone was on the streets in Mumbai
#
and we think of independence
#
that on 15th August everyone knew that the country was liberated
#
in Darbhanga after 1-1.5 years
#
that the country was liberated
#
independence started to be understood later
#
because there was no effect in the villages
#
many villages came to know about it later
#
so Hussain said that the whole city is on the streets
#
if the country is liberated then why should I do slavery
#
there was a great Hindi writer Amrit Lalnagar
#
he came to Mumbai to write a film
#
he had a problem with the film
#
any literary person has a problem with the film
#
because the design from here to America is the same
#
I read these things in different places
#
on the night of 15th August 1947
#
now he will not do slavery
#
on the night of independence
#
that I will not do this film
#
you can keep a pancha and see
#
that how big was the moment of freedom
#
invoked you from inside
#
that freedom is such a big thing
#
and we are talking about freedom
#
that you are not in the line in the morning
#
I think that is the biggest luxury
#
let's go back to your journey
#
I spent my time in Kanpur
#
Kanpur time was also like that
#
when I was coaching in Lucknow
#
it was not so difficult
#
because many people used to do that
#
but after doing engineering
#
it is a very difficult time
#
because you have taken 2 years off
#
I went there on my own will
#
I did not have the strength
#
because my mother was under a lot of pressure
#
but my father did not say a word
#
he asked me what I have to do
#
I said I am planning to do MBA
#
I took admission in Kanpur
#
his posting was in Kanpur
#
there was an additional problem
#
one day I got a message
#
what happened to your dream
#
I did not give him the paper
#
what happened to your dream
#
and my maturity was also very less
#
I did not know that I can see bigger dreams
#
or anger or frustration
#
he used to give me knowledge
#
that what are you eating
#
I was cut from everyone
#
I was in touch with friends
#
Mrityunjay, Shivaji Sawant
#
but I could not do all that
#
I was under the pressure
#
that I am not doing anything
#
that I had 4 years extra leave
#
so my father told me a story
#
his method was the same
#
he used to tell a story
#
when you see the balance sheet
#
when you see the balance sheet
#
it is the most important year
#
that it is the most important year
#
because after doing engineering
#
when you used to give interviews
#
I used to have a lot of problems in English
#
from speaking to everywhere
#
then I used to think that this is a big extra
#
although I know that English is not such a big thing
#
but maybe it sat in my mind
#
because I used to think that
#
as soon as I am trying to learn English
#
I used to think that I am pretending
#
that I am not the one who does it naturally
#
so maybe that is why it had an effect on me
#
in MBA there was a completely
#
from rave party to this
#
because the best of the lot comes in this MBA
#
those who do not get an IM
#
but the best thing in MBA
#
is that our whole gang is called BPG
#
so we call it a very nice group
#
this is also a male mentality
#
that there was a fashion show going on
#
so Bharat is from Pantnagar
#
so when there was a dance going on in Pantnagar
#
so even now in my Facebook comments
#
so I still write very nice
#
there were people like this in Bharat
#
sometimes you learn from a lot of people
#
there was a person called Prince Praveen
#
he got admitted in 2003
#
in Calcutta but he did not give
#
Lemon brother got shut down
#
and subprime crisis happened
#
so the placement that was looking easy
#
I got a management trainee
#
it happened in a small company
#
that the person who is going to be 30
#
is on a different level
#
he says something in Bengali
#
then slowly his leg gets cut
#
and the last line is also
#
so this is an open world for me
#
but there was a lot of English medium
#
India was changing so much
#
when you were in Kanpur and then in Simbi
#
you were telling yourself about yourself
#
it was such a dark time
#
in MBM until it happens
#
because before that your mind also breaks
#
and one year, I prepared for MBM
#
I liked one thing about myself
#
but something will happen
#
like I have removed options in multiple choices
#
if someone would have given me so much money
#
for engineering, software
#
I would not have done it
#
if someone would have given me 1 crore rupees per day
#
then I would not have done it
#
this is my ultimate clarity in life
#
I didn't want to be a writer
#
6-7 years away from my first book
#
as a career option was not there
#
those poems are like the ones behind the truck
#
and I was returning to Delhi, it was written in auto
#
that we don't live this moment
#
we don't know why we are worried
#
this moment will also pass
#
this moment will also pass
#
living for a moment is enough for this life
#
I felt like someone has written it for me
#
because I was very worried at that time
#
because you are going alone
#
and it should not be called depression
#
because it was not there
#
even though everything was dark
#
felt like I will do something
#
maybe the books were not
#
there was no pressure at home
#
but I was not on my own
#
that something is happening to everyone
#
something is happening to us
#
in that, maybe the hatred of the neighborhood uncle
#
that his words are coming true
#
that also is coming on you
#
that these people's words are coming true
#
if anyone would explain it, it would feel worse
#
it was a very empty time
#
then cyber cafes used to happen
#
my father used to go to office in Kanpur
#
and his studies were going on with his sister in Lucknow
#
and I don't know how it came to my mind
#
I used to be a chat box of Yahoo
#
we used to do ASL please
#
at that time I started looking for poems in Hindi
#
I started doing all that
#
then I found a poem by Gopal Das Neeraj
#
in which there is a smile
#
there is a smile in those difficulties
#
with which the whole life is spent crying
#
that pain is to get the necessary love
#
it was a very long poem
#
like we read one of his poems in school
#
that he was burnt but he stayed focused
#
that he should not go to any other place
#
that he should become as beautiful as Srijan
#
the world of poems that you are looking for
#
by googling Hindi poems
#
so the world of these writers
#
I stuck Gopal Das Neeraj's poem on my table
#
that in the difficulties
#
in which there is a smile
#
there is a smile in those difficulties
#
that gave me a lot of strength
#
it was the same time when I read
#
all those things were connecting
#
I think if I had those books
#
I knew that like the moon that I want
#
one day something will happen and everything will be done
#
she will become a big heroine
#
after becoming a heroine her problem does not solve in the story
#
but something will happen
#
so I was waiting for that miracle
#
which is called the moment
#
I had already got the moment
#
but I was waiting for that moment
#
but I didn't know if it was writing
#
so those poems gave me a lot of support
#
I wrote a line in Ako Bako
#
that stories are those trees
#
in which we come to find shade
#
the sales, marketing and struggle
#
then I reached Kanpur in sales
#
but that is a different story
#
my placement was decreasing that year
#
so the management trainee was sent
#
Bhind Murayana, Chambal
#
so this was a good thing about the ABG group
#
that they used to send management trainees
#
they used to send them beyond their state
#
3 months of rigorous training
#
and then in their state
#
if in sales, they used to give their state
#
so I was posted to Kanpur
#
this time I was earning
#
and in Kanpur I came to know that
#
all the management trainees have to do sales
#
I knew it from the beginning
#
when I reached the first day
#
the oil that is coming to the shop
#
it doesn't come directly from the company
#
he had work from Godrej to Henkel
#
first time I came to know that
#
they normally have a lot of work
#
and they are spending a lot of money
#
in these kinds of businesses
#
so the first day I reached
#
he resigned on the same day
#
so you can see for yourself
#
so I reached the distributor
#
and the scene in Zanzeer
#
inspector Vijay vs Sher Khan
#
so the distributor was Sher Khan
#
and I was inspector Vijay
#
put a file in front of me
#
that sir this is a claim of 2 lakhs
#
till this claim is not done
#
till then there will be no primary
#
so the primary means that till then
#
I will not buy your goods
#
goods will not go to the market
#
now I don't know how to solve
#
so whatever I had learned in MBA
#
it was over on the first day
#
all my MBA studies were zero
#
I did one thing that no one in life
#
wants to help in a very crude way
#
people who work in life like our uncle
#
I am just telling the story in detail
#
that he was in sales tax
#
what is being stolen in this country
#
for example you are in a steel factory
#
you show that you made 100 tons of iron
#
you give tax on 100 tons
#
and you have an assessment of that tax
#
but the actual work of number 2
#
is that you make 1000 tons
#
this is what every restaurant does
#
this is what every hotel does
#
so that uncle had a very basic approach
#
he used to have a private boy
#
he used to give him a salary of 5000-7000
#
and he used to make him sit outside the factory
#
and he used to count the truck
#
and he used to match it every month
#
this is how much you have earned in this truck
#
pay the tax according to 120 tons
#
and pay the rest according to 800
#
so he teaches you life in crude terms
#
my distributor used to have 6-7 boys
#
one or two boys were old
#
it's been 3 days since I got the new boss
#
because you have to report the boss
#
so he asked me to do the primary
#
one more thing he used to do
#
he used to be an offeror
#
the one who kept the fridge in the pepsi
#
he used to have the same salary
#
as the one you are joining
#
so he used to satisfy his ego
#
so he will not teach you
#
and I will teach him a lesson
#
so there was a boy named Hari
#
who used to work in Egypt
#
so I took him in the evening
#
I asked him how will the business be
#
so he said he will do it tomorrow
#
because his goods are running out
#
you have to send it in the sales
#
how many numbers will be in the primary
#
that you will do it in a month
#
and if you do it in a month
#
he will ask why there are no twins
#
but those boys who taught me
#
then later I cracked it
#
it's a people's business
#
now recharge is online mostly
#
so if you go I used to do
#
and I used to go to every shop
#
I used to find out where the boy is studying
#
I used to drink tea 5 times
#
so I became friends with them
#
that's why in my mobile I was telling
#
I have 100 numbers of retailers
#
and I am still in touch with so many people
#
one of them was a retailer
#
he has started a very interesting work
#
so he collects a lot of banks
#
so there was not much money in recharge
#
so now I will go to Kanpur
#
there is a different world
#
in one MBA you are meeting DPS people
#
people who are in the hostel
#
people from good families are coming
#
because I am saying good families
#
because Hindi medium is not reaching there
#
the world opened up for me in this form
#
which two things I have learned for me
#
first when I went to the village and trained
#
because you never see your village
#
you have to be an outsider
#
to understand the economy
#
how the goods come in the shop
#
after 3 days someone will collect the money
#
you will not understand in your own village
#
I had reached a village
#
there was a person there
#
he was not wearing a cloth
#
so I said there is no recharge shop
#
because I could get the hoarding done
#
the telecom people were so aggressive
#
there is no recharge shop
#
telecom was running at this level
#
if I tell this to the village head
#
I used to understand that
#
so I asked him what is per
#
so there was a guy with him
#
he said he is the husband of the village head
#
he is not, he is his wife
#
Pradhan, per dot Pradhan
#
there are only 2-3 teachers
#
it is just a behavioral crack
#
you can do it at the shop
#
and you can also do it this way
#
fill the house in one rupee
#
so I came into marketing
#
and when I came into marketing for the first time
#
so I brought the story here
#
so I came into marketing for the first time
#
so I came into marketing for the first time
#
and the call rate will be 25 paise
#
now you have come into this part
#
that you started making a recharge of 25 rupees
#
so this marketing shift happened after 1.5 years
#
and here a boss changed me
#
and he asked me the same question
#
that my uncle had asked
#
that what do you do all day
#
I started the book journey from there
#
so you come on the book journey
#
you told me that if someone
#
gives me 1 crore per day
#
then I will not do sales
#
and now with so much joy
#
with a white smile on your face
#
you told me the story of how you cracked sales
#
with behavioral psychology
#
so you didn't enjoy it or what
#
so when I am telling you
#
what is good with all of us
#
film there was a dialogue
#
gives that much happiness
#
now the bike that I used to ride
#
and he is eating samosas
#
and doing something all day
#
now I am doing it like he has a lot of experience
#
but I didn't want to keep doing that
#
because I understood the game
#
that in sales unfortunately
#
that can't be changed by design
#
that a pressure will come from above
#
and you have to give pressure below
#
the target that should be actual
#
the target is given twice
#
irrespective of the company
#
whether it is insurance or telecom
#
that by design is repetitive
#
that's why I got bored in a year
#
so now I don't want to do that repetitive work
#
is the biggest filter that autocorrects everything
#
that's why I was happy to tell you
#
we choose the things we do according to who we are
#
it is also true that who we are
#
is shaped by the things that we do
#
in the sense that if you were doing sales
#
then you would be someone else
#
so maybe when you are saying that
#
if you give 1 crore per day then I won't do it
#
so you are expressing your disgust
#
for that other Divya Prakash
#
that time when 7-8 guys
#
this term came from the world of drugs
#
the world of drug peddlers
#
who used to roam on the streets
#
FMCG took everything from the telecom
#
so I had to shout at them
#
and shouting is not my basic nature
#
so what happened is that one day
#
the house help in our house
#
I took out a lot of his anger
#
I kept shouting for a long time
#
and those who are less angry
#
when they do it then they do more
#
I felt that this person is not me
#
I was not fit in my self image
#
which Divya Prakash was in my mind
#
because you have already read books
#
on one side you were reading
#
on the other side you were reading
#
you were jumping inside your mind
#
and here is such a cruel world
#
so even forgetting that world
#
you felt that you are wrong
#
I remember that exact moment
#
when he shouted at the house help
#
and it was unreasonable
#
you can't get rid of guilt
#
that's why I won't do it again
#
because again I can't be that Divya Prakash
#
you know exactly what you mean
#
they live their lives without
#
ever developing the capacity
#
they don't reflect on themselves
#
they shout at the house help more than they should
#
they will rationalize it
#
they will justify it, they will move on
#
the next day they will behave nicely
#
they will get a good reply
#
was it something that came upon you later in life
#
or was it always a part of you
#
like now when you speak of
#
all of these periods from your childhood onwards
#
I can see a lot of clarity
#
but now you are looking back in hindsight
#
of self reflection or were you
#
mostly just going through living life
#
and you got the ability
#
to look at it in that way later
#
there was a lot of confusion
#
in a very indecisive phase
#
I understand all of this
#
when the world opens up
#
then I understand that if you are confused
#
then you are very lucky in life
#
because you have at least two options
#
like Arjun had the option to fight or not
#
it wasn't like the rest of the people
#
clarity doesn't take you anywhere
#
Arjun doesn't get confused, Gita doesn't
#
so at that time I was very confused
#
I have studied from a Hindi medium
#
so I have a problem of finding a place
#
like you are and I knew that
#
I am not ready for that corporate world
#
like I was, whatever my skill level
#
when I left engineering
#
I couldn't write a single line code
#
on a single blue screen
#
and I passed with a total of
#
so that was a frustration
#
that was the first thing
#
I was in the business of eliminating options
#
we had almost the same journey
#
but he is still in software
#
now we talk a lot about
#
that what was the basic difference
#
that I was able to write so much
#
or went in this direction and not that
#
because he used to take it on ego
#
that I can do this work
#
in this matter I had that clarity
#
that I didn't take anything on ego
#
even if someone says bad to me
#
even today if someone says bad
#
then I think I have seen the worst part
#
even though it doesn't sound so dramatic
#
maybe depression happens to that age
#
like writing or whatever clarity
#
I discovered it very slowly
#
in fact I am telling you that
#
when I quit my job in 2020
#
that should I quit my job
#
but if you take a decision
#
then it gets corrected many times
#
but you will ask if I knew exactly
#
that the best decision was that
#
if you see there was no such friend
#
there was no friend in this world
#
because many times I feel
#
the first principle thinking
#
like my child's geography is very good
#
whereas mine and my wife's is not good
#
it is a very small thing
#
when the Ukraine war was going on
#
I thought I will never go to Ukraine
#
so I thought maybe I have seen
#
because I have not seen the news in paper
#
so I said why won't you go
#
so I said there is black sea in Ukraine
#
so if I drink black water I will get sick
#
that I will not do this or that
#
is remembering one thing
#
where I used to play cricket in Haridoi
#
so there was an electric pole
#
we used to come there exactly every day
#
and there was a new house to be built
#
so when you are filling up the bricks
#
so when you are filling up the bricks
#
so when you are filling up the bricks
#
so when you are filling up the bricks
#
so when I hit 10 times, it used to hurt
#
on the way to his house
#
he used to go and hit the bricks
#
one day it was very dark
#
there was no light and there was no torch
#
so I feel like we used to hit everyday
#
we used to practice everyday but it was not happening
#
that day there was nothing
#
it was not like someone was hitting with a stick
#
the important thing was
#
that I didn't do anything to hit the bricks
#
even if it was day or night
#
so maybe you got hurt somewhere
#
it is like if I take you to Banaras
#
two or three routes, I go to Delhi
#
then to Banaras, from here I go by train
#
but in going to Banaras
#
that the Ganga in Kanpur
#
I feel like going there
#
and it is possible that even after
#
reaching Banaras I feel so underwhelming
#
that I feel like I want a new Banaras
#
so I kept going on this thought
#
that going is a rough idea
#
that I have to go somewhere
#
but I don't know what Banaras is
#
maybe tomorrow I feel like going there
#
because coming to writing
#
doesn't mean that you have clarity
#
because when I take workshops
#
like many people say that they know the whole story
#
I have the whole story in my mind
#
and this is just writing
#
this is how they know that they don't have a story
#
when you know the exact story
#
then what is the meaning of writing
#
you are sitting in a bus
#
like when Allahabad's new bus started
#
and for the first time in 100 years
#
now this life would have been so good
#
if I had given them my resume
#
that I have done B.Tech from here
#
but life is not like that
#
now you can't even see it like that
#
I have a 4 hour journey
#
and asked for something
#
so I brought chips for myself
#
I don't know why she took one
#
so it was a casual conversation
#
that the AC is not cooling down
#
if you like mountains or sea
#
I still had one thing left
#
if I go to Allahabad for the first time
#
you must have an idea of Allahabad
#
you can call me anytime
#
I never got that number
#
and I still remember that number
#
because I never got that number
#
but when I went for bus
#
I don't even remember its name
#
but I knew so much about it
#
I think life is like that
#
what is going to happen on the way to Allahabad
#
we are on a very boring way
#
and you know what I was feeling
#
and there was a polite conversation
#
you don't have a lot of numbers
#
during summer internship
#
we were doing it in BHL
#
his brother came from Bangalore
#
he said no, no, Mattie's car came
#
he said let's go for a ride
#
the train from Delhi to Bangalore
#
was about 40 hours long
#
how we used to see girls
#
we used to decide based on that number
#
which washroom we want to go to
#
that kind of upbringing
#
a girl named Divya is coming
#
and after a couple of days
#
because you are with us for 40 hours
#
who were going to Bangalore
#
he said did you change your ticket
#
he said there was going to be a girl named Divya
#
he got Divya to do Sachin
#
we were operating like this
#
we didn't have the clarity of life
#
we were entangled in such small things
#
you fell in love with yourself
#
let's take a quick break
#
and after the break we will finally talk about
#
I am co-hosting with my good friend
#
the brilliant Ajay Shah
#
we have called it everything is everything
#
every week we will speak for about an hour
#
on things we care about
#
from the profound to the profane
#
from the exalted to the everyday
#
we range widely across subjects
#
and we bring multiple frames
#
with which we try to understand the world
#
please join us on our journey
#
by subscribing to our YouTube channel
#
the show is called everything is everything
#
welcome back to the scene on The Unseen
#
I am still with a very patient Divya Prakash
#
Dube, the patient you have taught in your life
#
you are showing a small version of her
#
let's talk about your shift to marketing
#
and then your shift to writing from there
#
because as you were saying
#
your journey towards becoming a writer
#
also started taking off
#
how did you get that phase of your life?
#
let me tell you about an incident
#
struggling with questions
#
at that time a film was released
#
Ajay Devan got the national award
#
Mayesh Bhatt's last best film
#
or a song by Anand Bakshi
#
when you were struggling with questions
#
and suddenly a random line came up
#
and you thought it was written for you
#
the song that was a hit of that film
#
but the line that hit me
#
answer your own questions
#
when I heard this line for the first time
#
that there is something
#
that the answers to your questions
#
you have to find it yourself
#
I took the book thing seriously
#
so when I came into marketing
#
everything else was good
#
and you were getting upset
#
you got a job after MBA
#
that you didn't get a job after BTEC
#
and suddenly you started getting more than your batch
#
but we came back in this race
#
no matter how much you run
#
so when we reached there
#
the marketing work was good
#
that we are living in Lucknow
#
so the advantage of living in Lucknow was
#
and when we wash the dishes
#
when you are living at home
#
you don't have to spend money
#
one is that I got married
#
your life starts getting organized
#
because you start making a system
#
otherwise if you wake up at 8
#
your life starts getting organized
#
I will be able to stay in Lucknow
#
I will stay here and work
#
but what you think doesn't always happen
#
he thought that I have very less work
#
so he asked that when you come at 10
#
and when you leave at 7
#
fill this in the excel sheet
#
no matter who you are in the corporate
#
whatever the load of work
#
so I also found that way
#
but I felt bad for myself
#
that why should I answer
#
that you have to fill the sheet
#
and because he had to go to the gym
#
and we were making data
#
we think that the person outside
#
how many people will take
#
because the marketing team
#
something came in my mind
#
that you are very restless
#
and your life is organized
#
so every weekend your randomness was fixed
#
so I got up and started writing
#
and before I started writing
#
because I had a lot of impact
#
there was a brother in my neighborhood
#
so he moved me very emotionally
#
from the first love letter
#
from the first break up
#
whatever the problem of the world
#
the person doesn't seem to solve
#
even though I didn't go for everything
#
I moved very emotionally
#
I thought how can this person die
#
like the story of Yudhishthir
#
he asks what is the biggest surprise
#
Yaksha asks so Yudhishthir says
#
people are dying every day
#
but we think we will not die
#
so he was in the neighborhood
#
the new super boss came
#
so I was feeling very bad
#
and because he used to go on Mondays
#
that I have written something for the first time
#
so I showed it to my friends
#
a friend asked what will you write this week
#
that I have to write this week
#
I have to tell a story on Monday
#
when the office will be empty
#
but after writing this story
#
it doesn't get completed
#
when I was searching for poems
#
there were a couple of groups
#
where people wrote something
#
and that poem got viral
#
there was a poem by Kumar Ishwas
#
and a poem by Harivansh Rai Bachchan
#
those three poems were the most searched
#
but my poem didn't get my name
#
everyone put it like this
#
so I searched and googled
#
please give my name and credit
#
no one believed that it's my poem
#
they said you are lying
#
how can it be your poem
#
and what else did you write
#
I didn't write anything else
#
or when I wrote the poem
#
so the copy and paste versions
#
that's why I knew it was my poem
#
so I put the poem in a group
#
that when you don't know how to write in Hindi
#
so I talked to that person
#
he was Shailesh Bharatwasi
#
so I asked what was the title of Bharatwasi
#
so I found out that Shailesh and his friend Manish
#
so Manish's name was Manish Vande Matram
#
his name was Shailesh Bharatwasi
#
they met in Allahabad during the preparation
#
and Shailesh's friend Manish
#
when he came from the village
#
he didn't like the preparation
#
so he went to the magazine
#
so when he went to ask in the magazine
#
he asked who recommended him
#
he writes poems and you like it
#
but no magazine published Manish's poem
#
after doing his engineering
#
he understood the technology
#
so he said there is a blog
#
you can publish it in the blog
#
and Manish's poem was published
#
and people thought that the world has changed
#
that the poem was published
#
but Shailesh got this vision
#
that if we are able to write less
#
he used to teach us to write in Hindi
#
those who could write in Hindi
#
and he did engineering in 2006
#
so my friends started earning
#
he commented that why Shailesh writes wrong
#
so I said how to write right
#
so he told me on the phone
#
if you have not seen it yet
#
he named my friend's blog
#
took money from friends
#
he used to call people all over the world
#
that I have to do this work in life
#
I will not do an engineering job
#
and someone is calling in Dubai
#
and someone is doing this
#
and you teach like a call center
#
you used to think that if a new blog is made
#
you are contributing in Hindi service
#
because our fear was that
#
Hindi or Shailesh's fear
#
that Hindi people will not write
#
in different professions
#
so Hindi will be extinct
#
but at that time I could not understand
#
Shailesh also got a job
#
so when he got a job as a printer
#
he collected a lot of writers
#
he used to write poetry there every month
#
he used to get some prize
#
so for me the biggest achievement in the world
#
I wanted my poetry to be number one
#
he started talking to people
#
that he can do this or that
#
Shailesh was in Lucknow
#
so I said that I have written something
#
first love was already there
#
so we were officially certified
#
but Shailesh used to say
#
once I got a chance to read poetry
#
with Javed Akhtar in Delhi
#
but I don't know what happened
#
I didn't know who it was
#
till then it was 2011-12
#
all the people there were VIP
#
and when I was meeting Javed
#
I took his book Tarkash
#
that is useful in bad times
#
I said what a smart dialogue
#
it will be very helpful
#
I have written a whole book for this
#
I realized at that moment
#
that poetry is not for me
#
we were reciting our poetry
#
that I shouldn't recite that poetry
#
the moment I didn't recite
#
so in 2012 when Shailesh
#
recited the first story
#
you have been wasting time on poetry
#
you should write a story
#
spent a lot of money in publishing
#
he gave it to many writers
#
and when he got some money
#
he said we should do something
#
so he said let's open a publication house
#
so he was opening a publication house
#
and my book was getting ready
#
rejected by so many publishers
#
and Manohar Shyam Joshi
#
we have to press our feet
#
so we said we won't be able to take this route
#
we are not known in the magazine
#
so I said let's publish
#
the first collection was made
#
and the editor Manish Vande Mataram
#
because he was also a lost writer
#
so he read a very loli story
#
I took that name from that story
#
there are not even all those stories
#
that are told slowly in the neighborhood
#
this is my truth, I am documenting it
#
your topics are very good
#
so my first book was made
#
we were going through an identity crisis
#
something new was happening
#
about Hindi, that environment was not made
#
it will happen that millions will read
#
I don't know what was the belief
#
we will come to it later
#
there will be 5 people who will say
#
I want to write like Nilotpal
#
or I want to do something like Divya Prakash
#
Divya Prakash or Nilotpal
#
eventually you are betting on it
#
and that's why it might fizzle out
#
because the ultimate thing
#
but to do it for 8 years
#
small story of the first book
#
we can talk for many hours
#
I want to ask you about
#
your influences and your reading
#
because one of the things I noticed in your writing also
#
that there are many references in it
#
like you said that you took the names of
#
Dharamveer Bharti's characters
#
you took Lolita's name from Nabokov
#
I was reading this lovely story of yours
#
the girl's name is Amrita
#
and then I realized why when she ends her name
#
which is also such a clever reference
#
and I am wearing a Kafka shirt
#
as a homage to your homage
#
so tell me a little bit about
#
the role that books and literature
#
have played in your life
#
like you already referred to a lot of people
#
who meant a lot to you and whose words
#
you took a lot of courage from, inspiration from
#
which is being built, so
#
who has the main character in it?
#
this is a big reference for me
#
Raheem Asoom Raza's writing
#
and there are two contexts
#
that he was from Ghazipur
#
and I am also from Ghazipur
#
so even now when I go to Ghazipur
#
and the bus stand in Lanka
#
because I thought he must have taken a bus from here
#
because you are making it in your mind
#
he must have taken a breath in the same air
#
who is the second reason
#
because I am time and whatever
#
what happened like a miracle
#
that one day you were watching a movie
#
and there was a dialogue in your ear
#
then you found out that
#
he has written the dialogue of Golmal
#
there was a very intelligent dialogue
#
there is a film by Rishikesh Mukherjee
#
I think I am taking the name of the film wrong
#
there was a very good dialogue
#
maybe he is making something
#
from the David character
#
this is the name of Khurpej
#
it was a very ordinary reference
#
so I thought who must have written it
#
it doesn't seem like a filmy dialogue
#
when the book was Seen 75
#
and the world of writing
#
his book was Cinema Aur Sanskriti
#
in Cinema Aur Sanskriti
#
I will tell you the essence of that essay
#
which deeply affected me
#
in that Raheem Asoom Raza writes
#
half of the village became a hit
#
it became a very big book
#
when I am sitting in my room
#
and we have many people
#
a father, a brother, a friend
#
the tenant in me is thinking
#
how will I get the rent
#
Pathak is standing with a sword
#
so he will cut everything with the sword
#
and when I was writing half of the village
#
there was no bitterness in my tongue
#
since I have come to Mumbai
#
there is always bitterness in my tongue
#
this is written by the person
#
who has written more than 100 films
#
and he calculated the royalty of half of the village
#
he calculated the royalty
#
that this is such a big book
#
he calculated the royalty
#
and showed that I will not get a rent of one month
#
he earned a lot from the films
#
and this whole thing is going on
#
and you are also feeling the bitterness
#
and you are feeling emotional
#
this is the last part of the essay
#
takes a corvette and her leg
#
and the bitterness in me begins to melt
#
how much you can achieve
#
with that thought process
#
and maybe it came in the film world
#
I did a little bit in the film
#
that they got three film fairs for dialogue
#
so if I ever write like this
#
and if I ever get a dialogue film fair
#
then after three it doesn't happen
#
no, you can't beat this
#
had a personal impact on me
#
sometimes we look at the writer separately
#
but I include them in that
#
whatever was their writing
#
their stories are still relevant
#
at the same time Manohar Shyam Joshi had an impact on me
#
and today I am talking about
#
both of them wrote for the visual medium
#
later, for TV or for films
#
but if you look at both of them
#
Manohar Shyam Joshi started writing very late
#
I think his first book came at the age of 43-44
#
he didn't have any novel or book
#
I think he was in Hindustan Times
#
even when I was 29-30 years old
#
that maybe I will write in 10 years
#
it wasn't that I will write 7-8 or 5 books
#
I used to think that being a writer is a big thing
#
because half of the photos were of
#
Russian writers or of Swadesh Deepak
#
can only be done by a writer
#
because when we were growing up
#
we used to do one more thing
#
that some of the big writers used to read books
#
there was a culture of that kind
#
so I used to think that if these educated people
#
are studying even after clearing such a difficult exam
#
then it must be something special
#
but there was no discussion about writers
#
that I can be that true
#
and I think I am missing the question
#
what was your question?
#
the question was who were your influences
#
so these two people have a profound influence on me
#
there is one more influence
#
because you gradually outgrow
#
to find Kathasarit Sagar
#
I thought that if I wanted to study
#
then I should go to Gangotri
#
so I went to Panchatantra
#
and told him that I will study
#
so I found out about Kathasarit Sagar
#
so while searching I was in Banaras
#
there is an old go down
#
so when I reached there
#
I found Kathasarit Sagar
#
I found an old printed book
#
as soon as you are leaving
#
a book came on my shoulder
#
I knew the name of Vimal Mitra
#
that he wrote Saab Bibi and Gulam
#
so that book is not like
#
there was a small story
#
what is the purpose of your writing
#
so Vimal Mitra told a story
#
the story that was in the book
#
so he was going by train
#
he was sitting in the train in Nagpur
#
and there was a girl crying
#
she was 22-23 years old
#
and she was crying for a long time
#
her father was with that girl
#
so she told that she got married 6 months ago
#
and her husband died of cancer
#
she came from Nagpur to Rampur
#
and there was a singer in Rampur
#
and the singer was singing
#
Kaam Kiye Ja, Ram Bhaje Ja, Na Kaahu Ka Dhar Hai
#
In this town, all the passengers
#
are afraid of Na Kaahu Ka Dhar Hai
#
when that girl heard this
#
that what that singer did
#
Vimal Mitra, that essay
#
which was dropped for me
#
that book, I don't know
#
opened a new world for me
#
the brothers of the neighborhood
#
the brothers of the girls
#
that we want to be writers
#
this has never happened
#
it was not happening 10 years ago
#
because we are in commercial writing
#
we are in the game of writing and making money
#
I think why I got attracted to Rahi
#
because he was writing and earning
#
at the same time there is another story of Lucknow
#
because every person has a book
#
whether he studies or not
#
so the brothers of the neighborhood
#
I used to do Kavita Atukbandi
#
so they asked me to write
#
there is some anthem of the school
#
I gave them back in half an hour
#
so they brought 1000 rupees
#
and they gave me 1000 rupees
#
so they said I am going to earn 2 lakhs
#
but I am giving you 1000 rupees
#
that you can write and earn
#
you are getting this confidence
#
but you still don't believe
#
that because we are so conditioned
#
that we think that if we don't write
#
because there is a theory in the world
#
that whatever we are doing will be right
#
that you always want to believe in it
#
Rai sir and Manohar Shyam Joshi's
#
profound impact in college
#
which one thing in my writing
#
you didn't get directly
#
but indirectly I was influenced
#
because one thing that I changed
#
in my writing if you see
#
Hindi books from 20 years ago
#
which call themselves so called literature
#
my speaking and writing Hindi
#
the way someone talks in the canteen
#
I was writing exactly the same
#
I don't give a damn about the character
#
I don't tell the heroine of my story
#
that she is the heroine of the Hindi story
#
so that one thing I learned from these people
#
if they remove Manohar Shyam Joshi
#
then maybe nothing will remain in that form
#
and the third thing from Rajneesh
#
I learned in that form that
#
how can you say anything clearly
#
all stories are stories
#
because he used to explain his own story
#
he used to solve the mystery of your life
#
or the anecdotes that go on
#
which I want to keep in mind
#
and Aage Ki Shekhar Ek Jeevani
#
I think if I hadn't read that
#
I would have been in school
#
there are many such lines
#
that penance doesn't start when you sit quietly
#
penance doesn't start when you sit quietly
#
have the power in the Vedna
#
when you run away from the battlefield
#
that you don't have to run, you have to face it
#
I could have narrated it for hours
#
but I think some things change
#
you feel that you have found a friend
#
and you feel something else
#
that the questions we are struggling with
#
people have already struggled with us
#
we are putting them in the right direction
#
we are in the right direction
#
because it is not necessary that you start writing
#
whatever you are doing in the field, if you get it right
#
so when I read October Junction
#
these lines at the start
#
we have two versions of every story
#
and the other to explain ourselves
#
there are two versions of every story
#
a complicated English word so easily
#
and it sounds completely natural
#
and I absolutely loved it
#
that if you are talking to me
#
this is how I would expect you to talk to me
#
and I absolutely loved that
#
and even for my writing students
#
I keep talking about how
#
one test for good writing is
#
read it out, if it sounds like something you would naturally say
#
then even to the reader it will sound contrived
#
I will tell you one more thing
#
the big writers of that time
#
whatever Hindi book you read
#
if you have to save five books
#
then you should save one Chitralekha
#
the writer of Chitralekha
#
and when he used to write
#
Chitralekha was written in his book
#
Ashok Kumar was Meena Kumari
#
so all those who used to write
#
if there is one character
#
then they used to read his dialogue once
#
then they used to read the other's
#
so that the dialogue sounds different from that
#
it is such a small trick
#
I sometimes think that it is such a big hack
#
people used to track this
#
and it is such a good thing
#
if my friend speaks in a different tone
#
it is such a lovely thing
#
so tell me more about this new Hindi
#
that you are also a pioneer
#
it has been controversial
#
and the basic funda being
#
that you speak in everyday language
#
which everyone can understand
#
the problem with contemporary Hindi literature
#
is that the characters know
#
and I think that is a lovely line
#
and your characters don't feel
#
that they are out of a book
#
they are out of real life
#
I don't feel like it is writing
#
that is the biggest compliment I can give
#
that the current generation
#
they have the permission to write like this
#
you didn't have the permission
#
in Hindi literature would write
#
in this sort of contrived
#
carefully constructed language
#
self-doubt did you go through
#
did you go through imposter syndrome
#
how did you do all this
#
so this is very interesting
#
like when we were doing
#
and why this new Hindi came
#
this is a very interesting story
#
because a lot of curses are read for this
#
in every literature festival
#
someone stands up and tries to make us fall
#
the story of this new Hindi starts like this
#
because Shailesh is our publisher
#
and if you see the new Hindi
#
that this is the new Hindi
#
when Shailesh was teaching online
#
every time in the daily book fair
#
he used to install a stall
#
when he didn't have a single book
#
so that online people could learn Hindi
#
that vision was very big
#
so what happened from there
#
when there were 5-6 books
#
Kishore Chaudhary's book came
#
so when we reached the book fair
#
when there were 5-6 books
#
we used to self-publish
#
so that we could sustain
#
and Shailesh had a clear-cut vision
#
that the book should look
#
as the Hindi books normally look
#
it should be beautiful, the quality should be good
#
because the content inside is not in my hands
#
whatever is in my hands I do
#
and I will keep looking for the content
#
I think it was in 2014 or 2015
#
so we felt that now when we are going to the book fair
#
then we should do something
#
there should be something like that
#
so we came up with two terms
#
I knew a little bit about marketing
#
and Shailesh and I talk everyday
#
like I talked to him before coming
#
everyday like a girlfriend-boyfriend
#
about Hindi and what else can we do
#
like I started in storytelling
#
so its extension is that
#
some people will discover books
#
so when we were doing this
#
we came up with two phrases
#
because we thought what is our Sada Hak
#
we were looking for that phrase
#
our emotions, our anxiety, our questions
#
you do something new, there is a push back
#
and Mr. Kadar Khan had said it very well
#
I have not heard it from him
#
so I have heard that Mr. Kadar Khan used to say
#
that in the sea of Mumbai
#
there is a wave of every name
#
when the wave of your name comes
#
are you still in this city or not
#
because the sea pulls you back
#
we leave the city first
#
so when we were doing this
#
there was a lot of criticism
#
and people who have always been purists
#
from their side and on facebook
#
so one thing Shailesh always told me
#
that never answer anyone
#
and maybe even they don't do it
#
how can we say that we are right
#
we are in the experiment phase
#
so there are two phrases
#
one is my Hindi and the other is new Hindi
#
because my Hindi is personal
#
it feels better that this is my Hindi
#
I have studied a little bit
#
and I am used to reading interviews
#
so I had read an interview of Kamleshwar
#
the biggest pressure was
#
to separate from Premchand syndrome
#
because they were not writing stories
#
they were writing a new story of a new era
#
so the name that they gave to this movement
#
so I said, new should always be there
#
so they said, let's do the new Hindi
#
like everyone puts Hindiung Prakashan
#
X Prakashan, Y Prakashan
#
they went through, they made it bigger
#
whatever was within that limit
#
so what came out, there are books in other book fairs
#
but they said, what is this new Hindi
#
so does it have any old Hindi
#
that curiosity was generated
#
at the same time if you see
#
a different type of Hindi
#
that is actually new Hindi
#
because they were talking like us
#
was their first Hindi book
#
talking to them like them
#
so many people that I met in the beginning
#
so they told me a very profound thing
#
that after Premchand, you are the only one
#
so what is their reference
#
because they have read Premchand's story in school
#
after that they read my Hindi book for the first time
#
whatever reason they discovered
#
but this was not the right comparison
#
so as soon as the term new Hindi came
#
and we got a little more criticism
#
so there were more acceptance and youngsters
#
maybe we are directionally correct
#
and kept that communication simple
#
there was a fight between two people
#
the thing you oppose is more established
#
it is the same with Bhagwan
#
if Bhagwan is there or not
#
if there is nothing, then what is the discussion
#
but the more this happened
#
who were working in Bangalore
#
and the most interesting fact we found out
#
that our books are being delivered in Bangalore
#
so that means the people who are going there
#
whether to give it to their families
#
or otherwise they were reading
#
then a pre-booking model came
#
so we sent the flipkart at that time
#
they said we don't do Hindi books
#
at that time Amazon was being created
#
so the power play that was displayed in the shops
#
they used to send cash on delivery
#
in establishing the new Hindi
#
that technology became easy to write with Unicode
#
your distribution was getting correct
#
not by going to the shop
#
I haven't done any launch event
#
I will feed them samosa and cold drink
#
it's over communication
#
it's better to run an ad on Facebook
#
then I thought how can I run an ad
#
Amish's party made a promo
#
if you see the conditions of my book
#
so there were many people who appreciated
#
and at the same time the country was changing
#
bringing comfort with Hindi
#
every field is looking for a new hero
#
and they were standing at the right place
#
and we didn't know anything
#
we would have discovered
#
the imagination of this time
#
like I was buying a book in Benaras
#
and a girl came from behind
#
and she said to the shopkeeper
#
so she didn't know that I was standing
#
and I didn't say anything
#
so it means that we are communicating something right
#
because we don't have money in marketing
#
they put crores of rupees
#
and tell you that it's cold
#
that we are doing it right
#
and it's capturing the imagination
#
that when my first book came
#
the guy who was doing his first job
#
now he has at least one
#
marriage and one or two kids
#
one kid is entering the age of 20
#
whose Hindi exposure is decreasing
#
so how can I balance both
#
because if you see in English
#
the writers who are very popular
#
dug a new well every time
#
communicated with the 20 year old
#
we are trying to grow them
#
so the problem gets bigger
#
because I have read English books
#
that if you learn 4 words in English
#
you will be able to speak in the interview
#
many people read English books
#
which is a brilliant example of
#
hammered, hammered, hammered
#
way of speaking is great
#
you know when I think of
#
the journey of language
#
in the 19th century it is called Hindustani
#
and then it becomes involved in this
#
political battle that on the one hand
#
you are taking Urdu away into a purer
#
more, you know, Persianized form
#
and equally you are trying to de-Persianize
#
and de-Urdu what you are calling
#
you are eventually coming up with something called
#
Shudh Hindi which is what all of us learnt in school
#
which nobody actually speaks like
#
there is one more thing
#
Shudh Hindi never existed in Hindustani
#
now I am leaving from here
#
and when I used to work
#
we used to take a tea break
#
and someone used to say
#
now after drinking in the evening
#
I will have to recharge my battery
#
so Shudh Hindi, we feel
#
that our grandmothers and grandmothers
#
like language by design cannot be pure
#
and that is the good thing about it
#
like when we came in the beginning
#
we were told that it is not pure
#
I said that ghee is also not pure
#
it can be pure 70 years ago
#
if there was ghee, not now
#
but the language was not pure 70 years ago
#
and that is what makes it beautiful
#
the fun of the tone texture in the language
#
otherwise it is the water
#
that we normally talk about
#
it is a river, it is flowing
#
so we will put four words in it
#
and people design according to themselves
#
the best thing about the language is
#
that no one is making four people sitting in the university
#
otherwise it becomes very standard
#
and that effort is useless
#
because people are not ready
#
the good thing about the language is
#
that you cannot throw it away
#
the language evolves, no central committee can decide
#
there is a beautiful book by Alok Rai
#
called Hindi Nationalism
#
about this whole movement
#
the whole political movement around it
#
what was the ecosystem of Hindi
#
like the world in which you came
#
like I will break it up into two questions
#
and you can decide which one to do first
#
but I think both of them are very interesting to me
#
what was the status of Hindi in India
#
given what you have described
#
that in a hierarchy of languages
#
in India somehow we have a hierarchy
#
where the top is English, after that if Hindi comes
#
then Bhojpuri comes below it
#
and so called dialects come
#
and to me that is terrible
#
all languages are rich and beautiful and it is absolutely horrible
#
and I think this obsession
#
with English and placing it on a pedestal
#
not just the other languages
#
but it has affected English also
#
so that is one question
#
and the second question is about the Hindi ecosystem
#
but I will come to that later
#
about the English class
#
because even today honestly
#
I am talking about Divya Prakash
#
I expected they will know your name but they did not
#
even I hadn't read your books till I met you
#
which a friend introduced
#
whereas if I take the name of an English writer
#
who has sold one tenth of your copies
#
they will know the name
#
and this is shameful, it is shameful for me
#
and you guys came up in this atmosphere
#
where you were automatically
#
like I did an episode with Ira Pandey
#
Nidalji's sister, Shivani's daughter
#
and she said that once she was at a party
#
and she is a bureaucrat's wife
#
so once she was at one of those parties
#
and somebody asked her what she did
#
and she said I am a writer and that person said
#
with great interest and presumably in an accent
#
oh really, what books have you written
#
and when she mentioned she was a Hindi writer
#
the person just turned away and walked away
#
so in Hindi there is a joke
#
tell someone that you write in Hindi
#
so this is a very old joke
#
that has happened with every writer
#
that you write in Hindi
#
you tell them that you write in Hindi
#
they say ok, ok, ok, they write in Hindi, but what do they do?
#
this question has been asked to everyone
#
with English in any form
#
when we used to give interviews
#
we had to give in English
#
that was also important
#
I believe that it was important because
#
you have a client in America tomorrow
#
how will you talk if you don't understand
#
but what happens is that
#
combined it with personality
#
the uncle in my neighborhood
#
if someone can't speak English
#
remembered a couple of quotes
#
I forgot the name of the writer
#
if it's an English quote then it must be
#
with Hindi, that I forgot
#
never mock a person who speaks broken English
#
it means he knows another language
#
so this came to me later
#
go to the building of Shishay
#
like if you see the advertising of 80s
#
they used to call them HMT
#
when Prasoon Joshi, Piyush Pandey
#
they used to call them HMT, like Hindi medium
#
because the people here
#
in the advertising, if you see
#
they used to come from English medium
#
now what happened is that
#
at one point you realized that
#
if you want to communicate in this country
#
then you have to do it in this language
#
now suddenly you started finding people like this
#
or you started changing yourself
#
now in changing, the advertising professionals
#
what is the reference of Hindi for them?
#
their house help, their auto
#
or the reference of 70s and 80s
#
if you see the 70s and 80s films
#
which is the language of Mumbai
#
I think it was never said in Mumbai
#
I think it will be in a very limited part
#
which became a popular reference
#
you have seen their life
#
their life is very difficult
#
when their life is tough
#
then your language also becomes tough
#
that's why when you learned Hindi from there
#
then a different Hindi opened up to you
#
because their life is rough
#
then suddenly you discovered
#
and in the next 10-20 years if you change
#
like the channel where I used to work
#
I had to speak in Fikki
#
at the end of the floor
#
I had to speak in Hindi
#
there must have been some instruction
#
and I was lost on the floor
#
now suddenly you are making Hindi serials
#
but writing 4 lines in Hindi
#
so that day they found me and told me
#
that he has a few books
#
so I gave them an option
#
because I don't know Hindi
#
I said there are two options
#
whatever you say will get a clap
#
because I had that confidence
#
so he gave whatever he wanted
#
because it was a closing remark
#
he said that Hindi is very good
#
although it was not a good Hindi
#
it got cool to know Hindi on that floor
#
so the Hindi medium types
#
infact in the bureaucracy
#
that is happening with UPSC
#
the most unfortunate thing
#
that is in the whole space
#
if there are 1000 seats
#
then there are not even 50
#
and how many English teachers
#
I don't think it is happening purposefully
#
something by design fault
#
that they are not coming
#
then when the officer goes
#
from the Indian version
#
so there is a difference
#
so the opportunities you get
#
you give opportunities to people like yourself
#
you do things in your own space
#
like you took the name of Alok Rai
#
I was doing storytelling in Calcutta
#
I took the name of Mr. Rai
#
how much you have freed
#
he came and he complimented me
#
and new people have come
#
and now he lives in Allahabad
#
he must have demystified
#
because the people in Delhi
#
who were operating in intellectual space
#
it was happening in a certain way
#
and when we came in this world
#
we felt that we will not be able to
#
make our place with Hindi
#
the whole fight is that
#
someone accepts us as we are
#
don't throw us back for this
#
so the Hindi medium type
#
there are many English mediums
#
in fact in the film set
#
they read Roman very easily
#
they can't read those scripts in Hindi
#
there are very few actors who ask for scripts in Hindi
#
that should never happen
#
which every generation operates in its own way
#
is not only a matter of language
#
but also a matter of personality
#
when there was a group discussion
#
what you have to see in GD
#
ultimately you have to judge
#
if I would have spoken in Hindi in GD
#
would he have taken me?
#
like I couldn't say anything
#
whom you are competing with
#
the kid who has studied in
#
Delhi school or Williams
#
I am competing with them
#
no matter how good my point is
#
of a big pharma company
#
if you want to do sales
#
who knows a lot of English
#
that if there is someone
#
who has studied in a big college
#
and doesn't know the language
#
don't take him in sales
#
how they were operating
#
in the academic world of Delhi
#
that in the world of M.B.A
#
when I told you that I have a hobby
#
Hindi poem, maybe a random person
#
who is a fan of Kavik Kavita
#
in Hindustan Times or Mint
#
if you see the articles of the writers
#
of Harivansh Rai Bachchan
#
was doing the anchoring
#
he said a very small thing
#
he said that the big picture
#
of Harivansh Rai Bachchan
#
or do we get that much space
#
because the place of English writers
#
they didn't have to knock
#
we had to knock, it was closed
#
then we had to knock again, it was closed
#
so at one point we had to break
#
I will tell it like a story
#
where I used to live in Shah Jahanpur
#
there was the place of Doordarshan
#
that you are not allowed to come inside
#
so once the TV was not coming
#
then the cable was not available
#
and it was exactly like that
#
we were in B35 and he was B32
#
he was in front of one house
#
so I asked why it was not working
#
the office was built in the house
#
so I wrote Pravesh Nished
#
so I came and I never got scolded
#
as it is Pravesh Nished
#
it is written on every door
#
many doors have to be broken
#
I don't know why he said it
#
or whatever the reason was
#
I asked again and he said it will come after an hour
#
sometimes the door is open
#
you just have to tell that you have come
#
so we are essentially doing the same
#
that we are breaking many doors
#
and you know it is very interesting
#
that you said that Hindi has become fashionable
#
it should not be fashionable, it should be normal
#
that HMT is being used as a slur in that way
#
and also that India looking at Bharat
#
that India through its own lens
#
reminded me of something Hussain Haidari said on the show
#
that you people go above Muhammad Ali flyover
#
and look down, it is Muhammad Ali road
#
we look above the flyover
#
and that view is such a different view
#
that you know the point
#
I was trying to make earlier about mainstream entertainment
#
that is also India looking at Bharat
#
that if all your ADs are coming
#
who have gone to good schools
#
have an elite education, are studying Hindi in Roman
#
they can read Hindi in Roman
#
the bottom line is that it is India looking at Bharat
#
that it is you know top down
#
elite driven entertainment
#
before TikTok was banned in India
#
I felt that something is happening at the bottom
#
you know you don't need to rely on these gatekeepers
#
anymore because gatekeepers will always be
#
what is your sense of that?
#
in this one, Javed Sahib's uncle
#
move ahead of the times Majaz
#
move ahead of the times
#
even if TikTok was banned
#
there are many creators
#
who are expressing themselves
#
they have democratized the whole space
#
or whatever form it was
#
if you are doing it for half an hour
#
that you will feel that this aunty
#
who is in Noida and she teaches you how to make
#
and she will say that I have said Shah Madhuli
#
because most of the people
#
and our time is such that
#
it will happen very fast
#
as fast as it happened in space
#
when I wrote the book after MBA
#
many of my friends from MBA
#
who obviously don't read
#
they told me to tell them when I will come in English
#
when I will come in English
#
I got from a friend in Bangalore
#
there was a girl in her office
#
who had studied Hindi in her childhood
#
she also read your book
#
a world that is more confident
#
what was good in the village
#
you won't be able to stay
#
that is our native language
#
the rest of the language we have learned
#
and I am talking in all languages
#
whether it is Marathi or Bengali
#
when two Bengali people meet
#
two Marathi people meet
#
and try to speak in English
#
because the way people were ruling
#
even if they join the political party
#
they are not from that land
#
even though 35 people are going
#
but they are trying to change themselves
#
she asked me what can we do
#
and how can we change it
#
the problem is when we talk about
#
the world is so big that it cannot be changed
#
I said aunty you can do this
#
in the society you live
#
one day a boy will come
#
you gave me my first Hindi book
#
but these kids are curious
#
when we give them 10 books
#
then give them 2 Hindi books
#
when I started giving you something different
#
everything is an answer
#
everything is a question
#
tell us something about the Hindi publishing ecosystem
#
I know the English publishing ecosystem
#
but tell us something about Hindi
#
what is the definition of a best seller
#
how did it evolve after your arrival
#
and normally the English publishers
#
and a smuggler would wear white clothes
#
this person is a villain
#
the international publishers
#
but there too people are standing in white clothes
#
why is the Hindi publishing not democratized
#
Hindi and other languages
#
that it is not dependent on the reader
#
what would happen is that a book came
#
they would keep it at 600 MRP
#
will get an order of 3000
#
which will have many people
#
so what will happen is that
#
in today's date if you ask
#
if I bump into 1 lakh people
#
which library you go to read
#
you will not get a single library card
#
so the library is actually
#
on which the whole publishing industry is based
#
so they don't have the pain
#
suddenly a shock started
#
and it's not like we were born
#
I am taking a high moral ground
#
who made it easy to publish
#
where there is so much comfort
#
that in self-publishing
#
you can give 20000 and publish anything
#
even if that is the fate of the book
#
whatever it is, it is available on Amazon
#
but the rest of the old people
#
who were the elephants of that space
#
they were not operating like that
#
when this change started happening
#
when I go to Delhi book fair
#
and my luck is very good
#
and the bookage is very good
#
when I go there in the morning
#
even if I go for 2 days
#
your shirt is very good
#
what happened to your girlfriend
#
so I am the child of their house
#
whose book has gone to the library
#
it's not like you didn't get royalty
#
but you roam in the book fair
#
and who is going to recognize you
#
who doesn't have a good publisher
#
their game is also going on
#
and every publisher has a book
#
if you want to see a good publisher
#
or if you want to see a good manager
#
then see his entry of 20 years
#
if a bureaucrat has a better entry
#
then it means he is a bad manager
#
it means he is a good manager
#
everyone has Manohar Shyam Joshi
#
there is some problem in the system
#
so the same Manohar Shyam Joshi's line
#
that in Hindi you have to push your back
#
was operating like that
#
but now in the last 4-5 years
#
so now every publication house
#
has started a new imprint
#
they started a caste system
#
which I think was very wrong
#
they should have operated in that space
#
they started making the same video
#
in Hindi, marketing is the same
#
and when you go to print
#
then what is the reference
#
and you get a direct answer
#
this is a miracle in Hindi
#
new publishers have come
#
who are trying to open it little by little
#
there is a next level fight
#
because now there is a two-fold fight
#
that first you print something
#
and communicate it properly
#
and the good and bad thing with a book
#
is that it is not like a movie
#
every good book can be discovered anytime
#
or any book can be discovered
#
and eventually it can come after 5 years
#
so this happened in Hindi
#
which we will see at par
#
in the last 10-15 years of English
#
you will see that new writers
#
who were touching more people
#
the last writer will also be printed
#
remove them, Amitabh Ghosh
#
the writers in the popular space
#
hardly 5 names will come in the new writing
#
I think that in English
#
the way people were reading
#
the stories in that form
#
because many English people
#
used to read in this country
#
so now they are learning how to speak
#
that is why even 12 year old
#
they know that it is a wrong word
#
10 year old children are speaking
#
because their references are
#
the space is getting smaller
#
there the imagination is captured
#
because in this country
#
the story of the changing aspirations
#
I am talking about the popular story
#
the good and popular story
#
there is another change
#
the self help book is getting 60%
#
it is not that it is not good
#
but the imagination is getting
#
there is a sense of changing yourself
#
you see how many self help books
#
but some hold on to something
#
communicating with the 20 year old
#
because I think even the older writers
#
that who is the 20 year old today
#
that's a beautiful powerful point
#
I have two observations
#
and the second one leads to a question
#
and one is that when you
#
which I am a lot of food for thought
#
that the 20 year old is watching Netflix
#
this also leads to the quality
#
of storytelling expected
#
so if you don't deliver that
#
it is not that your whole competition
#
you are now competing against Aaron Sorkin
#
you are competing against David Simon
#
you are competing against the best
#
and my other thought here is
#
then maybe he would have made Reels
#
if he had been born today
#
then maybe he would have been a vlogger
#
and I think he would have been a very good vlogger
#
we have this hierarchy of arts
#
in which writing a book is right on top
#
it is the ultimate thing
#
but actually I think that hierarchy is wrong
#
actually I think that for a storyteller
#
there are so many things that you can do
#
all the live shows that you do
#
your storytelling performance about Kitti Bhaiyya
#
just blew my mind, I was in tears for half of it
#
and I just feel that for a storyteller
#
now you don't have to go to the written page
#
there are so many other ways to reach
#
people and I don't think that's a bad thing
#
there is no doubt in this
#
that every time, but with books
#
one thing that still doesn't change
#
which I feel is that books are the only
#
there is a web series, a film
#
which I am also in the channel
#
so if you enter as a writer in the web series
#
then you can't always write what you want to write
#
no matter how big a creator you are
#
that will give you Khichdi
#
then someone will come there, your manager will come
#
he will say no, he is saying marketing
#
this is in trend, this is going on
#
so what will happen there when you will take
#
then he will say no, no
#
now a days Khichdi is going on, so can you make
#
ultimately it becomes something different
#
because it is a design problem
#
so one thing that will never go
#
to the ground with a book
#
that in a book, hero, heroine
#
item song, villain, all are you
#
I am telling you in English
#
even then maybe fatwas are coming
#
in Hindi you can write anything, no one has read anything
#
I was creating a show for someone
#
there you can't write Raghav
#
because Raghav is God's name
#
so we are operating at that level
#
because something will happen tomorrow
#
you are not even God's name
#
since I was in the channel, I thought who
#
should meet the legal people, go to hell
#
so in this matter, you will see that Rahul and Priya
#
I think someone needs to uncover an open issue
#
in which Rahul is also God's name
#
there is no doubt about it
#
so these are all problems
#
ultimately the thief's name is not important
#
what the thief does is important
#
so those are small fixes
#
there are many more fixes
#
but the joke that you were saying
#
that they are gay and they make vlogs
#
I was telling someone that
#
you have to reach people in this time
#
and there is so much free space
#
so even Gautam would be there
#
I had told this to someone a few days ago
#
because otherwise how will you reach
#
the youth, in between Raj Mauli said in a very good interview
#
that we think we should do hoarding
#
he said that in the traffic, the person is not seeing hoarding, he is seeing mobile
#
so we will advertise in mobile
#
Gautam would have made a reel
#
would have asked him to email me
#
he would not have done that, ask why
#
because he didn't believe in attachments
#
let's go back to your journey
#
but your career is still going
#
what happens next in your journey
#
like when I was reading
#
I felt that in some ways
#
the apprehensions and the desires
#
that the characters are expressing are your
#
apprehensions and desires
#
your heroine writes at one point
#
I really want that someone
#
that I earn a lot of money
#
that my book is sold in lakhs
#
and later when she does become
#
very successful at one point
#
she says that everything is done
#
so tell me about that whole journey
#
that initially when you are selling
#
so I had a shitty book out in 2009
#
also I let myself down with it
#
and what I often tell writers
#
I had no grand hopes of it
#
but what I have noticed happening to a lot of writers
#
around me that when their first book comes
#
they think their world will change forever
#
after 6 months I realized that
#
it's not even in the stores anymore
#
and when you put the first book on social media
#
the people who write congratulations
#
they don't buy the book
#
so that's why your heart breaks
#
you feel that this is like
#
our election battle in Ghasipur
#
and you realize that their 5 members die
#
so the book is like that
#
the genesis of this story
#
like in the story telling principles
#
everyone tells a basic thing
#
that someone needs something
#
and they are on that path
#
Rahul wants to marry Priya
#
but Priya doesn't want to marry Rahul
#
Rahul wants to marry Rahul
#
Rahul wants to marry Priya
#
Rahul wants to marry Priya
#
Priya wants to marry Rahul
#
but their family is saying
#
why don't you guys stay in the living room and watch
#
and they say we will stay in the living room
#
but their family is saying why should we stay in the living room
#
but if you see in October Junction
#
he got everything very quickly
#
he told me a very profound thing
#
he made a company and sold it
#
70-80 crore rupees came into his account
#
and there are many such actions
#
so whoever has so much money
#
so he said I got empty in 2 years
#
I went to take a golf membership
#
and asked him for money
#
he said where will you give me 25 lakhs
#
I said give me 25 lakhs membership
#
you did that also in 25 lakhs
#
because in 80 crore rupees 25 lakhs was very less
#
then he said when I swiped the card
#
a person who got everything
#
then how will his life go bad
#
I want to tell his story
#
in my mind the story was
#
the question was about your journey
#
so I said October junction
#
when the first book came out
#
but when I met that person
#
I thought even after getting everything
#
so what happened on the journey
#
that my first book was the least
#
but one good thing happened with me
#
that most of the people
#
you will see mostly writers
#
and I don't know if the other one is coming
#
I am sure she is coming
#
no no I am going to write more
#
and redeem myself one day
#
but he will talk about discipline
#
I want to learn from you
#
so after the first book
#
I wanted to write a book
#
and when I used to work
#
I used to keep life very simple
#
that when I used to come back on Friday
#
now my second job is starting
#
so even though I was writing part-time
#
but I was a full-time writer in my mind
#
full-time weekend writer
#
full-time weekend writer
#
I used to believe that the two days
#
I want to learn guitar so I can learn in 3 months
#
so as soon as I consider it as a continuous piece
#
out of the 365 days you have a leave
#
I used to count it like this
#
and I still do one thing very simple
#
like I am writing a book
#
Masala Chai is the name of the book
#
so Masala Chai today is 8th August
#
so Masala Chai 8th August 2024
#
and I didn't write for 2 days
#
so when I sit on 10th August
#
and I write Masala Chai 10th August 2024
#
so when in the whole book
#
I can see that I am sitting only 35 times
#
I never go back on that file
#
so when you see me for 2 months
#
it feels like I am sitting only for 4 days
#
I used to go out many times for work
#
then got married, something happened
#
so when I was writing the second book
#
I thought that I will write one book every year
#
and I won't be able to maintain that pace
#
then it will be an average of 1.5 years
#
then the second book came Masala Chai
#
till then my life didn't change
#
neither they invite me to speak
#
nor they invite me to Jaipur Literature Festival
#
and I used to think that what can I do
#
why should I invite people
#
because neither media is covering you
#
nor whatever methods were there
#
if you think back to 2014
#
when we were making Masala Chai
#
we found out that someone posted
#
and 3-4 of them are from your family
#
that your sister or friend did something
#
but it wasn't getting over
#
even though it was a book
#
but it wasn't getting over
#
it was better than before
#
because I had written a story
#
Palana College of Engineering
#
the first line that touches
#
is a big deal and placement is very small
#
admission is very small
#
and placement doesn't happen
#
and that was the story of
#
the world of private college
#
and it was a long story
#
if I had understood I would have made it
#
but till then it wasn't there
#
these stories, because there are sketches
#
but when you have two books
#
that when will I write a novel
#
and it's been a year since then
#
so I thought I will do one thing
#
I used to write like this
#
that one boy and one girl
#
on the toilet seat, from the flight key
#
from the flight seat, from the bus seat
#
from the garden, so I said
#
I will write like this, I will write this boy and girl
#
so it's good, I captured it
#
then the story started emerging
#
like the story of Musafir Cafe
#
so I didn't know the end, the names were also different
#
and I thought that when
#
we talk in life, we don't say this
#
I am saying, you are understanding
#
you are saying, I am understanding
#
saying this, what were my feelings, I don't tell
#
you see that and understand
#
so I thought I will write a book
#
in which he said, she said won't happen
#
there is no he said, she said
#
it was my own effort to do
#
it was very difficult to complete that book
#
because when I did control F and Sudha Chander
#
it was done in a magical way
#
but if you see in Musafir Cafe
#
you will see when the book came
#
which will take 3 years to sell
#
did a smart thing, we used to play
#
on Hindi, because at that time
#
the marketing was that we will do it on 14th September
#
you are living with guilt that we don't do anything for Hindi
#
600 people must have bought
#
but when Musafir Cafe came and people read it
#
as you watch a movie in 3 hours, you can read the book in 3 hours
#
I understood after 2 years
#
of the book being released
#
that why this book is going so well
#
as you said that Chitra's insecurity
#
so I came to know that the character Sudha
#
she doesn't want to get married
#
but I didn't write it thinking that it is in trend
#
the way the girls were changing in India
#
especially those who came to big cities
#
from small cities to big cities
#
they used to dream of going to big cities
#
she also didn't want to get married
#
so she captured that imagination
#
wants to close his shop and go to
#
another city, he knows exactly
#
what he has to do there
#
but he can't close the shop
#
so he crosses that journey
#
was writing in my own fantasy
#
I didn't know the trend
#
is a little philosophical
#
that we come, we time pass and we go
#
not all Musafir, not Kahu's director
#
so those 2-3 things stuck
#
now what happened when the book came in 1 year
#
in Bhopal there was a library
#
he used to teach the kids
#
so he must have bought me
#
he is giving it to young boys
#
read this, this happens in life
#
Chandar also got Musafir cafe
#
you will also get your own Musafir cafe
#
and we also made a promo
#
till then I used to make a video
#
that what is your Musafir cafe
#
so it was very philosophical
#
that when you complete the list
#
then what is left in the blank paper
#
but what happened after reading Musafir cafe
#
many people found it so real
#
that some people left their job
#
he had a plan, it's not like
#
reading exactly, but he said
#
then the Musafir shined so much
#
then the Laxmi sir in Vivekanand
#
one of the biggest coaches of Bhopal
#
he left it, but what is happening with me
#
I am doing the same job, eating the same Rojnath
#
I thought what is the magic
#
that when people are reading
#
but somewhere from there
#
the success of the book
#
was given to me by Musafir cafe
#
that there is something that is sticking so fast
#
and you wrote a long story
#
what logic were you putting
#
that if you write a short story then people will read fast
#
it happened the other way around
#
when you wrote a long story then more people read
#
because the involvement got deeper
#
like when you talk about
#
then that thing got stuck
#
then after that October
#
that I can say a little bigger
#
so the philosophy that still drives me
#
that if you are ahead of the times
#
then you have to increase the time
#
and when you have the responsibility
#
to increase, and I am not like
#
this world should be like this
#
so if you see the theme of Ibn-e-Badooti
#
that a boy is looking for a boyfriend for his mother
#
who was ahead of the time
#
later a girl came on twitter
#
she posted a photo of her mother
#
I had written it before
#
many incidents are happening
#
then because of the book
#
people started calling me
#
is there a serial story
#
during that time people used to call me to speak
#
so when I used to speak
#
you took out my journey
#
that I don't have so much
#
nor my struggle is like this
#
so I used to sit and ask the audience
#
someone told me my name is Neha
#
I told them my name is Amit
#
that I made it immediately
#
and people started enjoying
#
there were two benefits
#
first I didn't have to talk about myself
#
I discovered something new in storytelling
#
whoever is doing storytelling
#
whether it is a story or a stand-up
#
they are telling everything about themselves
#
so I thought this is an experiment
#
that I still try to do in storytelling
#
that he should come to the story
#
and I will bring him to the story
#
but these are all tricks
#
these are all hit and trial
#
because the whole game is live
#
I think that when you start getting safe
#
this game starts getting over
#
so every time new things
#
I used to read the story
#
so I never did it for 1.5 hours
#
I didn't even drink water
#
in that whole performance
#
so I didn't do that on purpose
#
when people used to call me
#
then someone saw my video
#
when I went to the channel
#
I would have never been a full time writer
#
if I didn't go to the channel
#
the people who came to tell me the story
#
because I was in that team
#
who used to commission shows
#
when these people are doing it
#
so it was a strong moment for me
#
that these people are doing it
#
and with all due respect to them
#
but I thought it was better
#
like when I didn't speak in college
#
the whole batch had to come
#
and speak about themselves on the mic
#
that where are you from
#
it was like soft dragging
#
but people could ask questions
#
I said there is so much loot
#
the first loot is from our people
#
I didn't relate to native Ghazipur
#
because I was 12th in Shahjampur
#
so he said that you call him loot
#
slowly slowly I discovered
#
whatever new thing I try
#
even now I have an imposter syndrome
#
the first time there was no sunlight
#
and he was trying to catch it
#
I found it so beautiful
#
that a kid was trying to catch the sun
#
that one day he will know
#
that he can't catch the sun
#
unless he becomes a writer
#
and he will try to catch the sun
#
I remember once I was teaching
#
I did an episode of everything is everything
#
one of the participants asked me
#
an interesting question
#
he asked that I want to start a new podcast
#
but what is the niche in the market
#
because I am very idealistic
#
don't chase a niche in the market
#
the only niche in the market is you
#
because out of the 7 billion people in the planet
#
the only thing that sets you apart is yourself
#
you have to be authentic to yourself
#
don't even chase the market
#
if you just keep chasing trends
#
it becomes the lowest common denominator
#
you become absolutely nothing
#
and very idealistically I also say
#
a good product is the best marketing
#
but I understand that is a step too far
#
what you guys have done is
#
you guys have aid on excellent marketing
#
like the promos I made for Musafir Cafe
#
I think for the time for books
#
it's also interesting to me
#
what you said about Musafir Cafe
#
that you realized after the fact
#
that you were actually on the trend
#
but I would imagine that you
#
everything that you have written
#
just reading it I feel like
#
it obviously comes from a pure place
#
it is what you want to write
#
young writers to look at it
#
that on the one hand there is a tendency
#
that I want to be successful
#
on the other hand there are a lot of needs
#
of people in terms of content trends
#
which are not being met by other creators
#
but at the same time my instinctive advice
#
would be that just be true to yourself
#
so how does one balance these
#
so I have seen from both the sides
#
when I came to the channel we were second guessing
#
all the channels, all the OTT
#
are in the game of second guessing
#
and I feel sad when the marketing people
#
tell us that this is going on
#
and I feel very bad because I don't know much about marketing
#
I miss a lot in today's writers
#
because I take workshops
#
that Koyal doesn't sing because
#
he sings because he has a song
#
what has happened is that they have
#
that if we write a film then we can be like this
#
this interview can happen
#
if we become a director then we can be like this
#
or if we write a book then we can be like this
#
which you are saying exactly
#
like if someone is coming from Jaipur today
#
so as soon as he comes from Jaipur to Mumbai
#
so he comes and sees what happens
#
he is in the house party
#
first of all he gets freedom from Jaipur
#
whereas the world wants Jaipur
#
first you come and leave your city
#
in the town where she lived
#
she told the same story
#
I am telling the truth that in the paper mill colony
#
I still have so many stories
#
that this life will be small
#
for me to tell that story
#
and one day I thought a lot why there are so many stories
#
the neighbourhood is the same
#
so I realized that like Shatranj
#
so the piada and a queen
#
everyone is seeing a different Shatranj
#
the piada is going first to get his neck cut
#
for him the Shatranj is very different
#
for the camel it is very different
#
if the camel falls in love with the piada
#
then for both of them the Shatranj is different
#
is in a relationship with an elephant
#
then for both of them it is different
#
and in the neighbourhood the combinations are endless
#
I remembered one more thing
#
in the book of Kamal Mitra
#
he told a very good story
#
that we have a habit of
#
like the story of Arjun
#
we ask him when Dronacharya is there
#
everyone says the bird is seen
#
and they say the fire is seen
#
and I think you need the opposite
#
there was a very good story
#
so when Mopasa was a kid
#
his mother's friend was a writer
#
so she took him to Flaubert
#
and said he is 8-9 years old
#
give him some knowledge
#
then after a few days Mopasa
#
I asked what did he say
#
he said to become a writer
#
so he randomly picked up a book
#
so she said he won't come
#
Mopasa reached there again
#
you told me to keep the book
#
so he gave the dictionary
#
so he took him to the window
#
and in front of the window
#
without sky this tree is of no use
#
there is a little house
#
and write whatever you see
#
that tree exists in sky
#
what I tell people in my workshop
#
is a game of seeing everything in slow motion
#
if I see this room in slow motion
#
in the middle of 600 people
#
and anyone can say anything
#
so everything opens in slow motion
#
that you see in slow motion
#
the problem is that we are so fast
#
that we are not able to see
#
that thing in slow motion
#
and when we see it in slow motion
#
then we write it in slow motion
#
and when you write it in slow motion
#
the more you write it in slow motion
#
the faster you can read it
#
there is a poem by Vijay Shishadri called imaginary number
#
before which two stanzas
#
the mountain that remains when the universe is destroyed
#
is not big and is not small
#
big and small are comparative categories
#
and to what could the mountain
#
that remains when the universe is destroyed
#
and the poem goes on but I just love these two
#
stanzas and you reminded me of Maupasa
#
and I remember the story of
#
he suddenly came to mind
#
like I must have read it 35-38 years ago
#
but it just suddenly came to mind
#
it is a story called the string
#
I am sure I have read it in Hindi
#
I will tell you for the sake of the listeners
#
and I will lead to my question from there
#
and the story is that there is a guy who is walking on the street
#
and there are other people around
#
and he sees a little piece of string
#
and he says I will take it, it must be of some use
#
so he takes it and puts it in his pocket
#
but he looks around and he sees that no one has seen it
#
because he feels embarrassed
#
how cheap am I that I am picking up a piece of string
#
now it so happens at the same time somebody's wallet was stolen
#
so they accuse him of it
#
and somebody says I saw you
#
bending down to pick up something so you stole the wallet
#
so he says no no I didn't take the wallet
#
and they say no no then what did you take
#
and he is too embarrassed to say
#
that I took the string because it will be of use
#
so I forget how the story ends
#
but I remember this moment
#
and I remember thinking that
#
the power of observation of Maupasa
#
something like a string lying on the ground
#
which is no doubt how he thought of the story
#
and you know what it reveals about humanity
#
that he can then construct this beautiful story
#
out of it and I want to ask you
#
that because your stories
#
are also full of simple moments
#
and ordinary people that
#
someone who was looking at the world
#
has the way that you see the world
#
changed because you're now a writer
#
do you look at things differently
#
do you notice things with more depth
#
that others may not see
