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For most of human history, there has been no such thing as dating.
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Men and women functioned almost as different species, playing different roles in different
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societies with different kinds of uneasy ways of relating to each other.
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For more than 99% of human existence, your possible choice of a partner was constrained
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by geography and by all kinds of constricting social norms.
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Men and women were tied down to specific roles, bound to stereotypes, and self-actualization
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Love, if it existed, could often be a rationalization.
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In the last few decades, things have opened up.
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More and more people can live lives of agency and autonomy and have a much wider pool of
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partners to choose from.
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Relationships are no longer constrained to certain set forms.
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There are even apps for this.
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This freedom is awesome, but it is also so confusing.
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The pace of change is high.
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The tech might be cutting edge, but mindsets are often primitive, and well-meaning men
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and women everywhere are bewildered.
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Is so much choice a feature or a bug?
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We know the old social norms, but what are the new ones?
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How do we shape ourselves in this brave new world?
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And perhaps the most important question of all.
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If there is such a thing as love, how do we find it?
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics, and behavioral
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Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen.
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My guests today are Sanjana Ramchandran and Samarth Bansal, and this episode contains
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Now here's how this episode took shape.
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Samarth, one of my favorite thinkers, and my guest in episode 299, had moved to Mumbai
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And while shooting the breeze and talking about his many adventures, a thought occurred
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Why don't I do an episode on modern dating with Samarth?
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Samarth had written a cult essay on dating last year called The Romantic Idiot and followed
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it up with another piece called Thirty and Thriving.
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He knew this landscape well.
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Samarth jumped at the idea and I asked him to suggest a third guest to complete the picture.
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Ideally, I said, a single woman in her early thirties would also have been through the
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A few days later, Samarth suggested Sanjana Ramchandran, known on Twitter as Sanju Babi
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George, and I looked at her work and said, oh yes, perfect.
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Sanjana is a marketing person by day, but otherwise a fantastic writer who's written
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some great essays for a bunch of publications such as 52 and the Indian Express.
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She has a book coming out next year and all her writing is insightful and provocative.
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Samarth's suggestion proved to be amazing.
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The three of us recorded in my home studio in Mumbai for around six and a half hours.
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My initial plan was that we chat with Sanjana a bit and get to know her.
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We already know Samarth from episode 299.
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After that, we would talk about dating.
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But the first three hours and 45 minutes were a delightful meandering conversation through
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Our notions of morality, success, art, patriarchy, the creator economy, how Upma is sinful, and
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It's almost like the freewheeling chats I've had with Krish Shok in Naren Shanoi, or the
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one with J. Arjun Singh in Subrata Mohanty, or the one with Roshan Abbas in Vikram Sathe.
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You have so much fun, you don't know where the time went.
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At about the three hours, 45 minutes mark, we got to our intended subject.
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We spoke about dating, but more than dating, about finding love, about female desire, male
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desire, the confusing cacophony of social expectations, and so on.
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Basically, what the title of this episode indicates.
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This is one of my favorite conversations on the show, so do listen in.
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But before we get started, two announcements.
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One, I'm planning to turn the Scene and the Unseen from a weekly show into a fortnightly
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So it will now come out every two weeks.
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Doing both Scene and Unseen and my YouTube show Everything is Everything has taken a
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lot out of me, and I want to make time for other things.
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One of them, which I am starting, and here's my second announcement, is life lessons.
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This is an online course I'm going to teach with Ajay Shah, in which we cover subjects
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like learning how to learn, learning how to think, mental models, communication, writing,
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personal finance, personal health, quantitative intuition, probabilistic thinking, the foundations
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of economics, a history of thought, and more.
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Please go to lifelessons.co.in for more information, and to sign up, we launched it a week ago,
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and without even announcing it on Twitter, we've already gotten 30 signups, and we'll
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close registration soon.
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So sign up fast at lifelessons.co.in.
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And now, before we talk to Sanjana and Samarth, let's take a quick commercial break.
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Sanjana and Samit, welcome to the Seen on the Unseen.
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I can't believe I'm here.
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I'm really happy to have both of you here.
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We are, of course, going to talk about how young people today navigate the complexities
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of the world, of figuring out what love is, figuring out what they are, and dating being
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kind of a hook into this show and an experience that you guys have in common and I haven't
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But I want to sort of begin by asking you, Sanjana, about your intriguing statement that
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you have sometimes wondered if you're a sociopath, because I have wondered the same thing, and
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our friend Samarth here insists that he is not a sociopath.
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He kind of looks like one.
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It's a very cool look, and he told us his story where he pretended to be someone called
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Sarthak Singhania and tried to scam an art gallery, but leave that aside.
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I was putting on a show at a show.
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In fact, it was an art show at an art show.
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At an art show, exactly.
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But the only audience was you.
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But I have a story to tell.
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As it tends to be with most art pieces, I think.
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But I think a degree of sociopathy is baked into everyday life, especially in modern society,
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and this is a somewhat substantiated theory I have, but if you have a conscience, to actually
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act and live by that conscience requires a great deal of sacrifice, that not everybody
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has the moral fiber or the character or the willingness, whatever it takes to make.
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And then you just compartmentalize those thoughts and just go on living a comfortable life.
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And I think that takes a degree of disregard for suffering.
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Maybe you can make peace with your existence being a natural part of the carnivorous nature
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So I mean, I have to extract if I am to give.
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And so if you're able to, like, it depends on your equation with that fact of reality.
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What is carnivorous nature of existence?
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That's a beautiful phrase.
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And you're both vegetarians.
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And I do have an argument for why non-vegetarians should stop defending non-vegetarianism, but
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we can go there later, maybe.
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But the carnivorous nature of existence, meaning there's no way you can exist without harm
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to someone or something that has any living being.
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And you can start with where life begins.
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But your base, and why do monks sort of default to consuming as little as possible so that
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they can minimize their harm on the planet and their, you know, on a journey to liberating
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themselves from existence itself?
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Because existence, that's where a lot of religion stems from existence as sin, the
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original sin being birth itself.
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So, we're complicit by our very act of living.
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And whether you choose to minimize harm and how far you go is a choice we all make.
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So I don't know if it's sociopathy, but it's your, I think morality is actually deeply
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private as opposed to how we perform it on social media today, that if I share X, Y,
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Z things, I'm like this virtuous person.
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And because I have these political ideas that conform to, well, the current identity politics,
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you know, these are the marginalized identities, these are, and actually morality is a deeply
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private thing that gets decided just based on how you live your life on the day to day.
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And so maybe there's a degree of sociopathy in everybody's lives, even in the so-called
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most moral people, the writers, the artists of the world, the people who are telling people
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what's right and wrong, and the people who are just going about doing their thing, getting
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I'll both double-click and digress at the same time, which is kind of a first, where
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I'm actually double-clicking into the sociopathy with the question I'm eventually coming to,
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but I'm digressing into the non-veg-veg question, where what I keep telling my veg friends is
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that, listen, eating a chicken is far more moral than eating a plate of upma, because
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the plate of upma comes out of a process of agriculture.
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And agriculture is basically mass genocide of many different species, both under the
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earth and over it and all of that, which is, you know, classically unseen.
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So my sort of tongue-in-cheek and provocative mantra is that if you want to cause the least
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damage to animals through your eating, then you should eat the biggest possible animal,
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because your per capita consumption of lives is lowest if you're eating a really large
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buffalo, for example, rather than a plate of upma, because then that's resulted from
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the deaths of many sort of millions of little critters, as it were, at the very least.
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I'm always impressed by the lens to which non-vegetarians go to defend non-vegetarianism,
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It's actually inarguable.
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No, I think if at heart you just keep non-vegetarianism to harming another human being, harming another
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And you can, there's a theory about, you know, the complexity of consciousness, dictating
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how much pain something feels.
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So yes, plants are conscious and therefore vegetarians are also.
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No, I don't mean plants.
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I mean, actual creatures like insects and like over and under insects, rodents, whatever
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than the natural habitat, which would have played out doesn't.
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And just agriculture involves your consciously murdering many of them and they are unseen
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Many of them are small.
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And yes, they are not perhaps evolved consciousnesses like, say, bigger animals or cute like them,
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but in terms of actual lives.
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So not, not, I'm not talking about plant consciousness at all.
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I'm so glad I'm vegetarian by habit.
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So didn't have to argue.
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No, no, I mean, kind of provocative, but you can move on very well.
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The time for secrets is here, which is that I did have a period of non-vegetarianism for
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I was part of my, I'm going to rebel against anything that was handed down to me and verify
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the need and the truth of it myself.
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And I was, it was very teenage attitude, I think.
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And three years into it, I was like, I never, firstly, I never really got into like fish
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and like, I just didn't, the taste didn't appeal to me.
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The smell of it was always off-putting, but I was a heavy chicken eater because I was
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all like protein and gym, I was 22 or something.
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And then I, just one fine March evening, I was like, why am I doing this?
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I don't even care that much about verifying whether this is okay or not anymore.
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I just never want to eat animals and I stopped.
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But I just like, the reason I was making the point about levels of consciousness is that
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the degree of pain something feels is proportional to its consciousness.
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So even if I were to say that your mathematics of plant harm is greater than big animal harm,
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I would say that if you multiply it by the level of consciousness of plants, it might
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still be lesser than the level of consciousness.
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I'm not talking about plants at all.
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I don't care about plants.
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I'm saying little animals because agriculture kills thousands of millions of little animals.
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So say you do the math there, but I just, I think from a more principal point of view,
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do you want to cause harm to anything?
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And if you can minimize that harm, I think just vegetables on the face of it.
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No, because you're killing many more small creatures and fewer big creatures.
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Like if I eat a buffalo, I could eat a buffalo for three days.
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If you eat a plate of fukma, you're killing already thousands of little insects and other
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But let's not belabor that.
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I'm not trying to be a sort of evangelistic.
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So how does, is there a contradiction here?
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Yeah, which is why I think that everybody should be free to make the choice.
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As long as you don't feel guilt about it because your own guilt is then negative energy, right?
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So then when you started the conversation by saying the way non-vegetarians defend non-vegetarianism.
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I would just like them to admit that it's morally questionable.
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No, no, I will argue with that.
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No, I am non-vegetarianism.
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I'm a non-vegetarian and I believe I have the right to be for XYZ reasons.
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But because I have this view, I concede that everybody gets to make up their views about
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And so I cannot judge a sanghi, for example, as harshly as I do.
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No, I mean, sanghis are an entirely different matter and I have no defense of them.
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I defend all of us that we are making food choices.
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But I would say that I don't think non-vegetarians have to feel guilty because no matter what
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you eat, you're killing animals and vegetarians are killing more living beings, including
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So agriculture is large scale genocide.
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I don't mean of plants at all.
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I'm not going into an argument about plants feel pain and all that, you know, that's not
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Agriculture is a large scale genocide of multiple species.
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Of course, that's what it involves.
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I think we are arriving at the original point that I don't know.
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That's a great t-shirt line, Samarth.
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I can't believe I just heard this statement.
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Agriculture is a large scale genocide.
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I think genocide, well, not technically because you're not killing a people, not technically
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in the sense that we use the term.
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It's large scale murder.
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It's slaughter of millions.
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Yeah, I have to use this line somewhere.
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Being vegan comes with its own nature of violence because it's more on the hyper consumer spectrum
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of things and the amount of like, I don't know, machinery it takes to produce something
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vegan probably causes its own damage to the systems.
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But let's get back to sociopathy, which is much more fun and where we can perhaps agree
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where I love your phrase, the carnivorous nature of existence.
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And I often feel that we are all fundamentally sociopathic in the sense that, you know, we
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are all in that main character syndrome, we are the main character in our heads and everyone
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else is playing a role.
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And of course we will sometimes, and I asked this of myself, that is it the case that that
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is my default condition and that actually everyone is instrumental to me and I might
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think I love so and so and so and so and so and so.
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But push comes to shove, who knows, like a thought experiment I like to throw on people
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is that if you're trapped in a deserted island with another person and you don't know when
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you're going to get rescued.
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But obviously the longer you live, the better the chances and food eventually runs out.
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You know, if the only way to survive is to kill and eat the other person, will you do
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This is a movie based on this thought experiment society of the snow, where this plane crashes.
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It was on Netflix and I think some award nominated.
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Not because my life isn't precious to me.
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But the idea of eating it's it's just I can't imagine being sated or nutrified in any way
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But we've gotten back to food now.
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And to be so desperate to be alive, I think like a lot of conversations in society is
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big problems like solve climate change and like, you know, make the world a better place.
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Why should we propagate our existence anymore?
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Let us naturally select ourselves to death.
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Why is the human race so important?
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Also the premise of that question comes with the assumption that like a lot of behaviors
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that we talk about ourselves, like are we just following what evolution wants us to
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do that keep living, reproducing, you know, like survival and life around which a lot
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of human behavior is based.
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So I have this increasing feeling, especially growing up that knowledge, reason, life experiences
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kind of like get you to, you know, exert control on these fundamental urges and not just follow
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So in a situation like this, I can't imagine myself just for the sake of survival, like
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like eating a person, if that is what you mean, like it's something like it's not
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even an option that comes to mind.
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I do not know how I will behave in that situation, but just the idea of it, of course, I thought
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experiments are meant to be extreme, but like, how was this linked to sociopathy, like that
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complete disregard of, no, my exploration sort of is that deep down are we, or perhaps
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is there a part of us, which really doesn't care, which is effectively sociopathic, though
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I would say that in the medical sense, about 5% of people are sociopaths because amygdala,
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the frontal amygdala or whatever is affected, so they don't feel empathy for others.
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And that's what the technical term means.
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And people have found that convicts in prisons, bankers and lawyers are over-represented.
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And politicians is my theory there.
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But what I'm like, I completely agree with you that, you know, we are hardwired in many
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different ways and in many contradictory ways.
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And the whole project of civilization is that we fight the hardwiring and we apply cultural
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norms on it because, hey, only humans can do that, we can reprogram ourselves.
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The question is, when does it break down?
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Like, you know, when Hannah Arendt came up with the phrase of banality of evil for everything
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The point is that we can get complacent by sitting down and thinking that that was those
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people in this time and by and large, we aren't like that.
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My sense is that, no, that by and large, every society can drift into that kind of state
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And therefore, my question is that, you know, what is this human condition that find, you
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know, we have that veneer of social choices and personal morality, as you put it, that
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we make. And we say, you know, of course, I can never eat another person.
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And of course, the moral.
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But yeah, but of course, once you are in that, you know, you never know where circumstances
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take you and that veneer breaks down.
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I mean, my instinctive answer is no.
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But my rational answer when I think about it is that I got to kill that person on day
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one, because if he is a high functioning sociopath, he is going to want to get me before I get
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him. So it has to be before the food runs out, not when the food runs out.
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And if he assumes that I might be like him, I have to get him before he gets me and he
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has to get me before I get him before he gets me.
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And so basically, it's one of my favorite areas of game theoretic prisoner's dilemma
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But I frequently wondered about this question in a related context, which is, do I need
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to be a sociopath to be as successful and ambitious as I was in my late 20s?
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And like I mentioned the transition from being maniacal about my career to being a little
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more humane about myself, like not seeing myself as an object set out to achieve whatever
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the ego wants. But there's drives within you that you have to honor whether or not your
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ego likes it. But yeah, I was like, and I've asked this of my niche online audience, like,
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do you believe success and morality are fundamentally opposed?
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Because to be that ruthless, you have to have a kind of disregard of probably even
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yourself. Right. Like, I think sociopathy also comes with the self-loathing, self-denial.
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But also, I hear the idea of what is success shapes it so much, right?
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Like, are we talking about extremes, extremes of success?
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I'm talking about conventionally upheld ideas of achievement, right?
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Which is money, fame, even they write their degrees to it.
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Yeah, like my sense is that if you want that traditional idea of success, you have no option
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but to kind of submerge yourself and, you know, do what it takes. But my idea of success
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currently entirely relies upon my following my own value system and living my own life
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and not caring about others' conceptions of success. So I guess that's probably how
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yeah. And therefore, I don't think that's sociopathy then like if you're following like
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an internally organized set of drives and ideas about what you want to do, that's coming
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from within you and you've done some investigation of those sources of that.
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But I think until you do that investigation, you are very driven by the culture's idea
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of success, which in the 90s was, you know, do the engineering MBA, get like this great
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corporate job and climb the ladder. And now it's changed to fame and, you know, having
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like a huge brand of your own. And until you question why I need to be successful in the
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way I've received it, I think you are on a path to narcissism and sociopathy in modern
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The only thing I want to say here is that I have examples of people around me whom I
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think are both successful from an internal compass plus external compass, right? Like
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internal perception as well as how the world looks at them. And they have chosen consciously
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to not be assholes, right? And not go like, and also like the moment you get power, what
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you do with that power defines a lot of who you could be. Like if you're a manager, you
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have 10 people reporting to you, 100 people reporting to you, what will you do? Like you
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can make their lives miserable, you can make their lives excellent. And how do you equate
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that? Like, you know, classic short-term, long-term thing, like in the short-term you
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get more work done from someone which can lead to the sociopathic behaviors. I don't
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care about what's happening in your life at all. I just want to get the work done kind
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of asshole, or saying that maybe if I am this person, the company's, you know, profits
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can be 10x, but I'm happy with say 8x or whatever, with some empathy. So is 8x being less successful
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and 10x being more successful? What is success?
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For a moment, I'll kind of disentangle my own word. I'll disentangle two sort of I think
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related concepts here. And one is the concept of excellence, where you become really good
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at something and that will naturally get you respected. And the other is success as
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defined traditionally, but especially in a corporate context, it can happen without excellence
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and often will happen without excellence. Or unless it's excellence at certain people's
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skills like sucking up and etc, etc, all the political maneuvering, all the things which
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made me decide 15 years ago, I will never work in a company again, and I haven't. Right?
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And I think what happens is that in that first category, excellence, I think a necessary
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condition for true excellence is humility, because you have to examine yourself, be really
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hard on yourself, learn from your mistakes. And that I think always comes from humility.
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And then if that humility is a natural characteristic that you're nurturing to become good at something,
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then it plays into everything else. Like, you know, all the high achievers I know who
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I really genuinely deeply respect, they are so freaking humble. Right? And all the assholes
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I know are actually, you know, they haven't, you know, they've reached positions and whatever,
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but not really excelled. And obviously, there's an overlap. There can be people who are excellent
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at something and are complete assholes and who play all the games that you play. But
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in a certain sense, like, at least for the kind of people you and I aspire to be and
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the kind of people we respect, Samarthar just will be in that category of people who just
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want to excel for the sake of excelling and not necessarily to get somewhere.
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I also want to add one more layer to it, that again, there's again a lot of notion here
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even about success, like, especially in the group that we are sitting, right? That excellence
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in something. But like, I lived in the mountains for three years. I met one of the things that
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hit me for the first time when you move from Delhi to living in the mountains is that like
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there's a cafe and they would shut on Sundays, right? And Sundays is when you get most tourists.
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So the first reaction you will say, you are an idiot, you don't know how to run a business.
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Like, who will shut the cafe on Sunday? But they're like, no, that there was a Christian
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community there. On Sunday, they have the service. Community matters more to us. Our
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relationships matter more to us. So who is anyone to say, you know, what is success?
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What is not success? So when I saw these patterns, and again, even in the city like
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Bombay, I would go talk to people with, you will not see any norm of conventional ideas
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of success, but the level of fulfillment that they have about their day to day or what they
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do, or like they might make a great chai, but the passion that they have in telling
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about what they do, that for me, so inspiring and just changes so much context in terms
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of the, you know, in the professional world that I roam around and this that consistently,
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I also have to ask myself that, okay, what kind of ideas of like, why have we tied the
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idea of success to excellence? It's really comes down to internal sense of where you
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place like how you see yourself and place yourself in the world. You see where I'm trying
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to go. There's so many loaded notions about your success is about dedication to craft
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and no, no, I think success is depends on how you define it. Like for me, success could
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be like, let's say that I decided I will be successful when I'm happy. My happiness brings
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my success. What makes me happy? Maybe what makes me happy is withdrawing from the treadmill
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out there and just sitting in my mountain home and just chilling and living a frugal
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life and not really caring about stuff, you know, and until I die and we'll all die. So
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and I think that's a kind of success by itself. And it depends on how you sort of define it.
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And this is where we are going to double click on you, Sanjana, because I've done a long
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episode with Our Man Samarth episode 299. I often tell people it's kind of ironic that
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two of my favorite episodes are 299 and 301, around 300. 301 was Natasha Badwa and Samarth
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was 299. I thought it was just a lovely, magical episode almost. So we're not going to
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talk much about Samarth in this particular episode. I'm sure he'll be back here soon.
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But so Sanjana, and can I call you Sanju? What do people call you?
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Friends call me Sanju. So we're friends. Yeah. Actually, a lot of the internet has
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felt free to call me Sanju ever since I put in that piece of mine about the origin of
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my name, that Sanju as a gender neutral nickname. But also like, tell about your Twitter handles.
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It's Sanju Bobby George. I've actually someone has genuinely thought Anju Bobby George is
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now into investigative journalism after one of my pieces on Twitter got traction. And
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I haven't I think it's a great confusion to stir. I enjoy being a trickster.
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Yeah. So where were you born? Where did you grow up? Tell me a bit about you.
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I was born in Chennai in this area called Mandavalli. And my grandma still lives in
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that house. The road ends in a temple. And I think now as I've grown up and examined my
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identity and my origins, it's a very symbolic Brahmin street, Brahmin neighborhood. So I'm a
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Tamil Brahmin born in Chennai. We lived there till I was six years old, moved to Bombay when
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my father got a job in advertising and marketing, which is what I do now. I lived there till I was
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about 18. And it was very consciously driven to me that I have to be the Brahmin ideal, which is
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really good at studies and all the definition of good at studies. So good at math, good at the,
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you know, like spoken well, I was put in like, churned through the system in a way like I was
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put in Carnatic music classes, I was put in drawing classes, I was put in skating classes,
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there wasn't a thing that they didn't want me to learn. And yeah, I mean, in hindsight,
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I think it was an expression of them wanting the best for me, but it was also a lot of pressure.
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And yeah, I studied at BITS around the age of 18, BITS Goa, which was magical. There was no
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attendance in BITS, which I think is, there's sometimes tends to be this Twitter discourse
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about why are BITSians good entrepreneurs. And at first I thought that was this very
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typical credentialism, like you're identifying a behavior and giving it some, you know, attributing
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it to something and it's like, I think we have this fetish in Indian culture about engineering
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colleges anyway. So is it even true? But then I think on second thought, it's a degree of true
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because I think BITSians have gone through like in India, not getting into IIT is actually a
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failure. I know it's like a first world problem, but it's like deeply internalized thing that I
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think for a long time stays with you, depending on, Samarth is an IIT in here and he has a wide
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grin on his face to the listeners. I never imagined this as like a felt experience,
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like does that shape? No, I mean, it doesn't like, I'm not, I don't feel like a failure,
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but I just- Did it feel like in your first year? Was that all? But what I meant to where I was
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going with that is that sense of like being second, that something really gives you a little bit of
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personality and like you're okay with sort of failing again and like trying things. And the
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fact that there's no attendance means I really got to explore myself through those four years. I was,
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I mean, I knew I didn't want to be an electronics engineer when I got into BITS,
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but I wasn't done with engineering. I still liked science and tech a lot. So I taught myself
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programming. Again, that was the ideal of intelligence and achievement at the time. So I was like,
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can't say goodbye to it, right? But yeah, I was also heavily involved in theater and literary and
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debate pursuits. And I knew I wanted to be a writer because I'd already had a very strange life
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by then. So I felt like the only way to justify my existence was to make a story out of it.
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But yeah, after BITS, yeah, like I said, worked in software for two years, very typical 90s journey,
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if you think about it. Got into IM Cal again, because you don't not give the cat if you've
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registered for it. All my friends gave it. Luckily I did well. Then I decided that I wasn't having
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such a great time at the company that I was at then, which is Amazon. I think can't be secretive
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about the culture there. Again, MBA was like, I was, you know, it was just a much more herd
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mentality compared to at least in the people who are following the herd and doing engineering,
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still unformed at that time. So they're becoming people and forming their personalities. But
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by 23, 24, 25, everyone who is at a B school has probably been told that this is it, you know,
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if you are here, then this is it. And so they have this, they're almost
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just giving into the image of like, I am from an IIM and therefore I have a certain sort of
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behavior and standard to uphold. And they haven't questioned that you're only here because your
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parents sort of pushed this on you. And I had that sort of dissonance at the time that if I was,
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what would I really be doing if I wasn't following the herd? I mean, I did well though there. And
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like, it seemed at the time that being excellent and being career driven was the point of life.
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So my marketing career began right after I've sold by now everything from detergent to 99% of the
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country to journalism and B2B SaaS to like the top few percent. I'd like to think it's like people
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generally think of science and marketing and writing as three very different pursuits. But
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I think it's all about people and all about problem solving and like structure and finding
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out the root of things. And so like, I think my marketing career really shaped my journalistic
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career in some ways, because I spoke to like, probably spoke to like at least less than 100
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women who were buying detergent and them telling me like, you know, it's only when I really get the
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stain off my husband's clothes that you know, he feels like he just like her respect in the
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household is earned by how well she manages the chores and everything. And I sort of also,
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even from the cushy comfort of like Andheri East home, I was exposed to a tier two lifestyle
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through my work there. And interviewing people and getting them to talk about their lives,
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it all draws from there. And yeah, so the pandemic hit in 2019. And right when we realized that,
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okay, the world is about to change, is when I started having my longest existential crisis
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is to date, I think I had a big one this summer, but that was remains the longest because I was
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like, you know, the world is going to end, I have not done the few things that really matter to me,
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which is being a writer, being funny and doing my own thing entrepreneurially. And so I started
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making some moves over that time, I wrote a bunch of screenplays, one of them went a little far with
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Roy Kapoor films, but I was very pulled towards the visual medium at first, because I think it's
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like another dimension of comedy and storytelling that the page and prose is a little more
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intellectual, right? I think you need to be a reader reader to appreciate prose, but everyone
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can enjoy a story on screen. Yeah, I also tried about like pitch to a bunch of places journalism,
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I already had an internship at the caravan before PNG, because I knew I wanted to segue into creative
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career at some point and help them sort of pivot from advertising to subscriptions, got a piece
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there. Yeah, after the band joined the Ken briefly, got a bunch of bylines there, did some marketing
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for them, continued to find consulting gigs that actually pay most of my bills still, and continued
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to write. I really loved that there was a place where young writers could do really in-depth
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writing and there still isn't a place where long form feature writing really shines in India, I
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feel like compared to the kind of brain diet that I'm going to presume the three of us have been
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exposed to a lot of American journalism has influenced like our ideas of what, what is
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possible. And there's most of those gaps remain today, I think you still have a lot of writing
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that's not being done that needs to be done. 52 was one of those magazines that filled a big void
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and I wrote a few pieces for them that got a bunch of traction. I got into this fellowship that liked
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my book idea and secured an agent, secured a publisher and I have a book coming out in
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six months about the story of my life. My very big detail that I somehow seem to have missed is that
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my parents are divorced. And it's sort of like I've always had a problem with this binary of
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privilege and oppression and like how identity politics sort of frames social issues. Because
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I've been perceived to be a very privileged person my whole life and I don't doubt that I have had
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material privilege. I've never been poor, but I have had financial distress. My dad was unemployed
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for most of his life and he didn't want my mother to work. And he was very insistent on her even
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when she was working that, you know, she come back home at a certain time. And I've seen like
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her banging her head against the wall, begging for like, you know, her own freedom. She wasn't
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allowed to wear makeup and lipstick while stepping out. And he would say things like,
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you know, you probably want to get raped if you're leaving the house like that. So I've actually
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grown up with, I've had to fight a lot of battles to feel like I'm entitled to a career. I'm entitled
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to dressing the way I want and standing up to him. And she never had the courage to leave the marriage
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and she thought like she would jeopardize the rest of the family. But I told her that, I mean,
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would you rather be miserable and suffering for your entire life or live happily? And it actually
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seemed like she would rather suffer because that was what, as a woman born in 1960s South India,
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she'd internalized what her life was supposed to be. But she's evolved now. I mean, there was a
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time when even after going through that, she was really insistent on me getting married by the age
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of 30. And I was actually poised to, I was in a great relationship, as great as my mental health
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would allow then, but with a stable, kind man that I'd also went to college with. But I just
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wasn't sure. And that came to the point, like two year mark in the relationship where we had to
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evolve. And it seemed that I had a new dimension of me unlocked. I was working on the book. I was
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questioning everything. I was like, am I non-binary? Am I like, am I she her? What is going on? Do I
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like multiple people? Am I polyamorous? Do I even want a relationship? I feel like I want to be
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single forever. Obviously that's not the frame of mind in which you get married. So we ended up
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splitting up. And yeah, I mean, since then I have just been, I have started to think that my
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craving for solitude and multiple relationships may not necessarily have been polyamorousness
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or even a love of solitude. It was just plain self-sabotage coming from the kind of life I had.
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I've sort of meditated more and gotten more in touch with the layers in which trauma seeps in.
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And it's almost like the popular analogy for healing is that it's like a spiral.
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So you go around and you think you've gone through it, but then there's a point in which
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you encounter it again. And I feel like the wounds, the relationship with my father. I mean,
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it's a meme at this point to be a fatherless girl, you know, when some woman on like very
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provocative online sort of sexually forward woman is commonly insulted as fatherless,
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especially if you're exposed to the Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson kind of crowd.
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It's a meme-ish kind of insult, but like I think I am, I have had that kind of life and I can tell
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you that we need better fathers than I guess. And we need better mothers too for people to feel
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like they can securely attach to adults as adults to other adults. But there seems to be a pattern
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where my father wound attracts people with a similar mother wound. And then those dynamics
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just sort of, I've been working through those in the last few months. So I don't even remember
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what your question was at this point, but I think we've arrived at the crux of my issues.
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I just wanted to know about your life and get to know you a little better, which,
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you know, and there's so much else I want to ask from this beautiful potted history of yourself
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that you've kind of given. I'll start by double clicking on your relationship with your mom. Tell
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me about your mom, because I think what often happens is that, you know, there are many different
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kinds of groups we get into and one of the groups we get into, especially if you're fortunate enough
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to have completely normal families as a group in which our mother is one thing, our father is one
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thing, they are like that forever. We never see them as real people. Perhaps sometimes we never
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do. Sometimes when we are 30, 40, 50, then we begin to see them as real people, but otherwise
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they are one fixed thing and that is what they are in our heads. But then when there is a tear
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in this fabric in some different way and that forces you to relate to them differently over time,
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I wonder how that changes and shapes the relationship. Like partly I can easily imagine
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that you could have had a narrow vision of both your mom and your dad, you know, and the vision
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of your dad could have been layered with anger and the way he treated your mom and all of that
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and a vision of your mom could have been both sympathy but also anger and why is she putting
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up with this shit and all of that. And gradually I'm guessing those deepen and you begin to see them
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as actual human beings. So did that happen? What was that process like? What's the relationship
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I think the flip side is also true. I think parents also see their kids as very narrow.
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They have a vision for their child. I think parenting is one of the hardest things to do
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in anyone's lifetime because you're doing it for the first time, right? So my parents became
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mother and father as I was born. They had no idea what they were doing and with my brothers,
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I have two younger brothers and the divorce and the family roles completely affect them
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very differently and I thought I was the one who suffered the most again simply by nature of being
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alive and seeing all of it for longer but they were younger when it all happened when it got to
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a head and I think it's completely affected them differently. So I think, yeah, I mean,
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I love reading and watching dramas about dysfunctional families and how it devolves
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sometimes into like psycho political thrillers and stuff because a wound kind of, like I said,
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the layers sort of keep unraveling over time and what used to be an issue in one way in the past
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is now an issue in another way in the present and I don't want to say it never gets better
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because it's irrevocably, I mean, my life is so good right now. Thank you. Fortunately,
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I'm here right now, right? But yeah, I mean, layers of it, strands of it continue to play out
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but to answer your question about my relationship and so I think you're bang on about father,
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lots of anger, lots of disbelief at how someone could not even recognize how wrong their behavior
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is and not even feel called to like introspect, apologize and sort of the Indian parent
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phenomena that is now again, a meme, a hashtag like they see parents, you know, you see a lot
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of content about it but there is a narcissism that's associated with what Indian parents were
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in, you know, when my generation, I don't think we're young anymore today. Now Gen Z is the main
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character and we're millennials, late millennials to be sure, like I'm two years ahead of the Gen Z
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bracket and I have a lot of traits, being unhinged and unserious was the thing before
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the Gen Z's were born, I'm sorry to say to the younger listeners. I'm pro Gen Z by the way.
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You're pro Gen Z? Whatever. What is pro Gen Z? Yeah, millennials like to hate on Gen Z's.
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Oh, but you don't hate Gen Z's, you like Gen Z's, you date Gen Z's.
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You hate, you don't hate and you date Gen Z's. No, he just said he doesn't date you. I don't.
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I mean, we'll get there. Okay, we'll get there. Oh my god, he made Sarthak Singhania blush.
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For the longest time, they were like, yeah, unaware of, unable to see how their lives were affecting
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mine because they were just like, what do you deal with it, right? Like I wear clothes that you fed
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you, cleaned your shit for a number of years, sent you to school, spent money on you. What do you mean
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you didn't listen to me and you don't really get me? Like those are, I can see now that that point
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makes sense, but at the time I was just, and also like our generation grew up with some Western
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ideas of what a relationship with your parents should be. Like non-hierarchical, you see people,
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you know, in TV shows, like, you know, parents are knocking on their doors before entering and
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there's respect and autonomy in that relationship. And I sort of was like, why don't you offer that
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to me? Like, why do I have to defer to you so much? Like, why can't I have a conversation with
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you as an equal? Those were my, you know, like, you need to know what the damage you've done to
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me is. I can't like just respect you and hide my life from you. And that confrontation played out
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many times. Like I, it wasn't always received well, but I think it was when they saw me have
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a nervous breakdown at home from not being able to like, because of everything at home, I've always
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sort of taken care of myself. And I don't mean this in a I'm self-made kind of way. I've had a
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great ecosystem of friends. My education has served me really well. And I always have my friends to
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fall back on and stuff. But there was a point when I was turning to them too, and they were not equipped
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to help me at the time. I had like a health issue, you know, there's crisis at work. And I went from
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one friend's place to another and they were going through their own shit and it just compounded.
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And I was like, I need to go home. And I went home and I was disregarded. And I was just like,
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you know what? And I sat my parents down and they were not listening to me. So I created a WhatsApp
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group with the two of them. And I was just like, you just listen, do not respond to anything. And
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I just told them everything that had happened between them and how it had affected me. And
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like the fact that I was literally having a nervous breakdown is what made my father listen,
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because otherwise he would have just been like, you're disrespecting me and like you don't even
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know anything and like the usual stuff. And I think going on Vipassana sort of made them realize,
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made them see me as someone who has suffered a lot. And like, you know, she's not just
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being arrogant as they may have wanted to see it all these years. And my relationship with him
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remains strained. I don't think, I think he's more apologetic and he sort of realized that it's not
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us, it's him. But it's not sufficient, you know, at some point, I just, I'm so draining to,
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to talk to him at times. And with my mom, like, she's a real friend now,
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because she's seen me go through that. And she really, she knows I stood up for her and gave
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her the courage to do things that were in her interest that maybe she wouldn't have followed
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through on. And she like, I told her, I mean, like, you know, you, even after all of that,
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you're giving me like these gold bracelets for my 20th birthday. She sent me this gold bracelet and
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she's like, see, it's now time for you to get married. And I lost my shit. I was like,
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you expect me to be grateful for this, dude, like, look at your, you need to concede,
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give up your right on my life. And I'm not opposed to marriage, but I'm opposed to it being
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shaped by you anymore. Like, I don't think the decision, every time I would call my grandmother,
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for example, one is like for three minutes of conversation, small talk, and she's like,
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when are you getting married? I'm like, if you keep doing this, I'm going to stop calling you.
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Because then she would be like, but don't, I'm going to die soon. Don't, don't I get to see my
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granddaughter get married before I die? And I was like, all grandmothers, all grandmothers,
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you die. I live with your decision. Is that what you want? And then she was like, you know, she,
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she just gave it, but I said, if you keep doing this, I can't talk to you. You know, I don't want
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to have this kind of relationship where you don't even see my life. I'm showing her like the rest
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of my apartment. Look, I've set this up. I've made this painting. Look at my books. I'm a writer.
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Now I get published in magazines. You don't give a shit about any of that. You want me to just get
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married. And she, she also cares. She's like 86. Okay. So it's big, big of her to listen and,
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and to come around. But she also used to have a worse relationship with my mother as her mother-in-law.
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When my mother first got married, the mother-in-law, you know, typical kind of
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do the work at home, be a good, good this thing. But after all these years, she sort of softened.
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She knows that Jaishree, my mom has been through a lot. And I think women sort of coming into
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their womanhood and realizing how they've been pawns in the system is necessary. And it needs
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to happen. And hopefully some of what I write has to do with that too. But my relationship with my
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mother now, she's not asking me to get married. She hopes I find someone because she wants me,
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wants to see me happy. Of course, I want to find like a great partner. Should, should, should I
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find one? I'm not opposed to that either. So I'm, I think it's a healthy kind of desire for me now
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and not a controlling and toxic desire as it may have once been.
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My mom was also called Jaishree. You know, one common element I find with many of my guests
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is not that their mothers were also called Jaishree, but that, you know, many of the parents
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lived in times where they are constrained into a particular kind of role. And they don't really
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have a choice. And they play that role. The father plays a provider, the mother plays a housewife,
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et cetera, et cetera. They play those roles. And then it can get very poignant when they then
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think of their children as the sites from which their desires will express themselves or, you know,
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it's like the our kids will have better lives than us and et cetera, et cetera. And I wonder
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at what point sort of, really interesting that your mother first sends you gold bangles, but now
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then she changes, you know, as you mentioned, doesn't ask you about marriage anymore or that
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offer and et cetera, et cetera. And I wonder how it is for her because just thinking of her as an
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individual, it must be so chaotic and turbulent to have to completely append the way you look at the
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world. Because in that kind of way of looking at the world, like marriage is the thing. Like I can
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look at your grandmother and, you know, we made a joke about all grandmothers, but what choice did
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they have? That is the world. It must be so bizarre for her. And it's how they organize their lives.
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And I'm going through that right now, right? I crave having like, I've been freelancing,
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I've been doing my own thing. And part of me also longs for structure and that identity gives you
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and the life that your prescribed identity and role gives you. And I know that because you've
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seen the perils of gender roles, when you flip to the opposite side, I think there is some point to
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the hyper feminist sort of shunning her own femininity in the process of, you know, rejecting
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the patriarchy. Like there is an inherent, what I'm about to say, I've been told is very
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controversial, but I'm happy to explain why I think so. There is an inherent masculinity and
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a femininity or like the way energy, these energies manifest, like what is a masculine energy? What's
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a feminine energy? And I think it is also up for one person to shape it for themselves. But yeah,
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in completely shunning it, you also realize then how far from your center you are. And you kind of
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then also realize the value of these things that your parents were telling you and subscribing to
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their whole lives. That thing you said about kids being influenced by their parents. There's a
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wonderful Carl Jung quote that I'm using in my writing that says, the greatest burden that the
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child has to bear is the unlived life of the parents. Because when you are born, like literally
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genetically, where they were in their psychological development is where yours begins and what the
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charter is for you. So I think there was a lot of stuff that my dad had repressed, obviously,
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from the kind of life he led and the choices he made and for my mom too. And she's evolved from
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putting those pressures on me to now sometimes saying, you're a free bird, I envy your life.
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And so yeah, I mean, you are living out either one flip side of their lives, either
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under their thumb and doing what they would do or like the opposite, what they couldn't do.
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Have you read Philip Larkin's poem? Yes, they fuck you up, your mom and dad.
#
You know, what you just said is exactly that phrase, man hands on misery to man,
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it deepens like a coastal shelf. And you know, sometimes you need to kind of just see that and
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let the sedimentary layers of their miseries be washed away by whatever. I don't want to take this
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metaphor too far. Which is also like the whole existence is sin thing. And why I think religion
#
was birthed by like, having to contend with the fact that you're alive. And so you need some
#
structure and framework because if there was that nervous breakdown point was when I realized that
#
in questioning everything that was handed down to me, I was now left unmoored. I had no scripts to
#
follow. I was not following my parents scripts or like Hindu society, those scripts that they gave
#
me. And the scripts that I had chosen were seemingly quite difficult, like unhealthy,
#
right? Like maniacal ambition, career is everything, total freedom, anarchism in
#
the psyche almost. And what then, I mean, because I got there via meditation and the
#
instructions in Vipassana were coming to me again and again, I felt like I had almost converted to
#
Buddhism, you know, through these experiences. I haven't done it like officially and I would like
#
to. I don't know how to go about it. And it seems like a lot of work. You've got to apply
#
and replicate to the Grand Buddhist Council. Were you ever an atheist? I was, yeah. I mean,
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I was like, there's a personal God and then God is guiding you, but there isn't the sort of religious
#
idolism, idolatry. But were you like a Richard Dawkins atheist? Yeah, I think I approached it
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because I felt like very early on, I just had like a lot of this thing about the contradictions
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that if God was real, it doesn't make sense because I would like, as a kid, I was told that
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if you lie, then Ganesha will poke you at night. So I did a Samarth and purposely lied and I was
#
not poked at night. So I was like, you guys are full of shit. You were also like, you know, you
#
should take off your, God is everywhere. That's an axiom, right? God is everywhere. But also take
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off your chappals outside the temple. I was like, if God is everywhere, then I shouldn't wear
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chappals anywhere, right? So what is this? And then the temple became like the son, you're just
#
giving money so that he does you favors. Like that seemed very transactional and not godly
#
behavior to me at an early age. So I was like, yeah, these guys. And also the fact that the
#
people who are religious did not behave very virtuously. Like my dad, for example, was a
#
conservative, self-proclaimed religious kind of guy, but he was not virtuous in his behavior. So
#
I had a lot of dissonance from what was handed down to me. That's why I questioned it. The only
#
reason I asked is that like, I'm still probably atheist, but I've seen people, friends of mine,
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in early twenties, saying there's no God, not believing in religion. But in this time, like
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I'm 31, late twenties, early thirties switching because maybe the kind of reason Sanjana, you
#
mentioned that just feeling that kya faya da iska? Like not having a belief system,
#
not that life is improving, they need some direction. And without saying becoming religious,
#
so to say in the day to day, but just believing in the idea that, okay, there is an order that we
#
can follow. Or like someone telling them kuch toh structure hai, aise chalta hai, you know, that
#
framework then becomes their guiding principle. Like it becomes very complicated once you are done
#
with the twenties. Like what to do? And like some of them have explicitly told me koi faya nahi hai
#
to be an atheist, so I'd rather be a believer. So I was wondering if that is what your experience
#
was? Yeah, there's different psychologists who have talked about this era of, basically it's
#
becoming an adult, late twenties. There's a psychologist who's written a book called
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The Quarter Life. Basically like this meaning crisis that occurs in your late twenties where
#
you're sort of forming your own, like you've done with what society has given you, you've sort of
#
encountered a few systems of your own, now what you really live by. So there is like this void that
#
around this age, late twenties, you need to fill. Because if you have to navigate life without any
#
prescription on what to do when, and like how do you guide your decisions? Like what is right,
#
what is wrong? Without, actually I think moralism is a function of the psyche. You need answers so
#
that you know how to live. I think, you know, the way that I think about atheism is like there are
#
two ways in which you can look at it. There's this great letter, I remember this letter writer to the
#
economist once wrote, because somewhere the economist in a previous piece said, you know,
#
quoted someone as talking about how atheism is a belief system. And this letter writer had written
#
that atheism is no more a belief system than not collecting stamps as a hobby. Right? So, and now
#
that's how I define my atheism, that it's an absence of belief. There's nothing I can do,
#
I can't believe. It's not there, there's nothing I can do. It's a default kind of position. I'm
#
not evangelical about it. You want to believe, you believe. I understand that the world is deeply
#
complex and it is deeply sad because we're all going to die and there's no intrinsic meaning.
#
And therefore you have to choose your delusions. If someone else is choosing a delusion that has
#
a god with a beard in it, you know, more power to them. In fact, I envy them. I wish I could do that
#
because, you know, I remember when my mom died, my mom, I wrote this column about 15, 16 years ago
#
saying, what's consolation for an atheist? Because if you are a believer, you can find one little
#
sliver of consolation there. But if you're not, you're not. And I think what a lot of young people
#
do and what a lot of militant sort of atheists I find do is that for them it is like collecting
#
stamps. It is like a belief system in a sense that they have built this package of positions
#
and one of those positions is not believing in God and another could be whatever, you know,
#
different positions. And it is, so it becomes part of the self identity. And I think that's
#
always going to break down at some point. But for someone like me, I think like I felt that
#
lack of structure and a personal morality, but then I figured that the only way is to
#
arrive at it through an act of intention and say that, okay, this is how I live my life
#
and I don't need to pin it on the existence of anything. And I don't need to have a larger
#
narrative. If I like to meditate, I'll meditate. I won't pin it to something else. But equally,
#
it is okay for everyone to choose their delusion because in a manner of speaking, I'm also choosing
#
one. Choose your own delusion. No, but Netflix's next interactive game of life.
#
Interactive, oh my God. Amit, this is existentialism, right? Which
#
I've like, spoken about. What?
#
Existentialism. Yeah, existentialism. There is no inherent meaning. You create your own meaning.
#
But it's just creating meaning by yourself from first principles. It's just very anxiety inducing.
#
If you can get through it, then great. It's very liberating. So you have to like, I went through
#
this phase of deep anxiety. Actually, I'm exaggerating. Not deep anxiety, anxiety.
#
But once you get through it, it's like super liberating.
#
I feel like just a couple of things that you both said that I want to add on. So what you're saying,
#
it seems like a very, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like a very intellectual approach to meaning,
#
which is I am free agent and none of the scripts that I see in culture necessarily fit me. So I'm
#
free to make up my own rules. But I think the frustration that I got as a rationalist and like
#
a very intellectually driven science, the frameworks and frameworks and frameworks,
#
you can hold all of them together and realize none of them fit. So there needs to be a deeper
#
source of truth. And that's what I found meditation giving me, like a system of truths arising from
#
within my body. And then that made me realize that actually I'm not free at all. There's a
#
thing within me that's asking me as an agent almost. So the ego is not in control.
#
You are like, the analogy that Jungian analysts give for this is basically people think that,
#
you know, the ego is a center and everything revolves around it. But actually the ego is
#
one of the planets and the self is the guiding force around which you revolve. So you are meant
#
to serve like a divine principle. And I wouldn't have called this move or what is this even,
#
if it weren't for the experiences I had, but I've seen this play out in like,
#
the things that like, for example, why did I have a nervous breakdown? If I'm a free agent,
#
I can just like, you know, things live in the body, things are stored in the body. You've read
#
molecules of emotion. I haven't. You've shared it on your Instagram stories. I saw the campus
#
paper book. I haven't. Samarth, you shared a book you didn't read. I haven't done that. Wow,
#
I did not expect to be calling you out. I think Samarth is a sociopath. This is the second life
#
we have called into. I haven't read molecules of emotion. This is an objective fact. I will find,
#
I mean, we'll come to that later. I'm pretty sure I saw that on your stories and I was like,
#
here's another person getting initiated into. I haven't. In fact, she agreed to come on the
#
show just because she thought I'll be going there with a person who's read molecules of emotion.
#
Now we are questioning the premise. I think that Sarthak Singhania's story has totally changed.
#
It's true, actually. You are Sarthak Singhania. My journalistic credentials are now being
#
questioned. I think already her, you know, her screenwriting cap is like, you know, showing
#
signs of, I mean, that could be a great story. You know, my Starbucks name is Rocky. Your
#
Starbucks name is Rocky. Why is your Starbucks name Rocky? What? Why is it Rocky? Because,
#
you know, like it started in Rajori Garden in West City when, like, because Rocky, right,
#
Rocky and Rani came out and I always wanted a Starbucks name, like it has changed. But now
#
I've settled with Rocky and I've got compliments in Bombay. From the film Rocky and Rani. From the
#
film Rocky and Rani, it's just like the character. So Sanjana, I have a scene for you. I want you to
#
put it in a film. Yes, please. He goes to a Starbucks and he gives his name and he sits down
#
and then another girl comes and she looks pretty and she goes, you come. Oh, no, come to you.
#
It has to be another girl comes, goes there and gives her name and then she goes back to her table
#
and then both their coffees are ready together and this guy says, coffee is for Rocky and Rani.
#
And her name is Sasha. Actually, Sasha is what you're saying. Because Sasha is my dating
#
alt name at times. Not to bring this conversation to what the podcast was meant to be about,
#
because I love that we never get there. Please, please, what will happen? But my dating alt name
#
is Sasha. So what happens between Rocky and Rani or Samarth and Sasha? I am also curious. The joke
#
is that you say, Sarthak and Sasha. Okay, what happens? The joke is that you say, coffee to
#
Rocky and Rani ke liye hota hai and she's like, my name is Sasha. And you're like, what if I was
#
Sarthak? Would that work? Sarthak and Sasha, alliterative like Rocky and Rani. I am 100%
#
sure that all your screenplays are better than this. I can confirm this won't work. It depends on how
#
low her standards are. Let's get back to your life. So, you know, when you were talking about
#
her time in college, I love this phrase that you use about the people around you that they were
#
becoming people. And that's such a lovely phrase, becoming people. And most of us don't even realize
#
that. And some of us don't become people. In fact, many of us don't become people. And I want to
#
sort of kind of double click on that. Because one danger when we are young is that we can get stuck
#
on various grooves. And then we become wherever the groove takes us. And we don't actually,
#
you know, to use a woo phrase, as it were, since you're using the word woo, we don't actually find
#
ourselves, right? And I'm thinking whether in your case, it played a part that because you had
#
sort of a turbulent home situation and all that, you were already out of one groove,
#
one particular way of thinking about the world. And this opened you up to questioning more things.
#
Or were you always a questioning kid? Like, I don't want to overthink it, but-
#
I think I was always a questioning kid. And I actually don't think the turbulence of home life,
#
I thought I was unaffected by it until 28, 29, when like I hit certain roadblocks. And I was like,
#
why is it happening to me? And then it turned out that the body had truths revealed to me. But
#
yeah, like I said, I was put in acting classes, I was, you know, always on stage in school,
#
elocution, events and stuff, scientific kind of bent of mind. I don't think, yeah, and I was also
#
like, I was given my first book at the age of five, by my mom, who was desperate for me to
#
become a reader and good at English, because again, Brahminical ideals of cosmopolitan Indian,
#
traditional yet modern kind of shaping that I had. So yeah, I think it was the far
#
question was- And what was the story you told yourself
#
about yourself? And how did that evolve? Like, what did you think you were at 18? And how did
#
that change by 28? What is it now? So this is going to be a little embarrassing
#
because I think the point that I was going to add to was the whole bit about how the
#
the smartest people that you guys like are also humble. I think humility is overrated,
#
especially for women. You know, I've had to prove my intelligence at home. My father would
#
insult my mother for she was a lawyer, a state topper in her chosen field. And every day he
#
would just be like, you know, I'm so good at math, and you don't even know, like basic thing. And
#
then I think that carried forward into how like my like, the first time I wanted to kill myself
#
was after my 10th board exams. And I got because I got 88 in maths, which was less for me, because
#
I should have easily gotten like a full score. I had a bulb moment. I remember the moment in
#
the exam. I was like, shit, this is not the three set of questions. It's something about like the
#
tax shit. I was just like, this is not I'm not going to get this. And then it turned out I got
#
88. And like, she didn't speak to me for three days, then they carried over her her inferiority,
#
instilled inferiority in regards to her own intelligence. And that subject made it like
#
a complex that I have to prove myself to be amazing. And that's why I so didn't easily let
#
go of science, not just because I genuinely loved it, but I had to be good at it. And also carried
#
over to my brother, because he as a boy should be good at it. And I don't think he that pressure
#
to do well can really go either way can either like, your ego can be so disturbed that you
#
definitely prove yourself right, or it can be so jarred by a version that you just like,
#
can't, or don't want to. Yeah, so I think like humility is totally overrated. I don't enjoy,
#
not just because I'm a woman. And therefore, I don't I don't feel like it's great.
#
Also thing is like, it panders to that whole image, right? I'm like, I'm so I'm smart,
#
but I'm humble. And I'm just like, gonna let other people discover it. Like, I think it's so
#
there's a charm to self aggrandizing humor. And there's there's being a little brash and
#
bratty about it is also funny to me with the right audience. And I think it's refreshing when
#
someone's open about their strengths and not coy about their gifts. Like, I'm going to tell you,
#
I'm really good at three different things in unique ways, instead of being like, well, I'm
#
just like, I just got here, accidentally, because I didn't get here accidentally, I had to claw my
#
way up. Even though it doesn't sound like a privileged woman from like, what top 5% of
#
economic households would have a lot to struggle with. But if I'm telling you that even
#
upper caste Brahmin women have so much to go through, their sexuality is not their own,
#
their intelligence is not their own, they're not given a scope of freedom beyond what the man has
#
dictated is your role in their life. There is a lot for us to prove. In fact, there was some guy
#
who tweeted, I wanted to like, go tweet and get into a whole discourse and debate about it. But
#
sometimes I find that my anger is not enough, even for that. But he was just like, truly smart
#
people don't care about proving themselves as smart. And I was like, only a man would say this,
#
only a man would play this game of nonchalance, where, you know, you have been, whenever you have
#
tried to prove your intelligence, you have been given the stage and you've been given the complete
#
sort of belief that, yeah, if you're saying it, it must be true. But when I was in Amazon, and
#
whenever I was in the STEM field, especially, I think just being confident is seen as arrogance
#
at times. And I was like, I'm not being arrogant, I think I have a healthy degree of self-belief.
#
And then because it was seen as arrogance, I would then have to overcompensate so much just to
#
deserve my own confidence. So a lot of my overachievement is, I think, a trauma response
#
and as overachievement as a woman, not being believed, not being taken seriously at home,
#
not being taken seriously at the workplace, sort of needing me to just like know everything
#
better than the opponent so that if you can prove yourself wrong, then they don't have a case kind
#
of thinking about it. It's one thing, I think humility, I think in context, I think it's more
#
about intellectual honesty to yourself. There's a real flip side to that. I do want to be like,
#
I don't think that your intelligence, I mean, this actually started an answer to your question
#
about what's my story been about myself. And I don't know how much of it was sort of the
#
conditioning and I don't know how much of it was innate. But my story about myself is that I'm a
#
genius. The only thing I have wanted to be is to be like consummate genius. And that's not enough,
#
like you grow up and you're that's where the sociopathy kind of outgrows it. Because I was
#
like so laser geared on doing whatever the capital, the smartest person of all time
#
would do, that I would ignore my own humanity, my own limits, sort of wouldn't care about myself
#
unless I was getting XYZ achievement or output that I set out to. But yeah, you're not just that
#
you're not just your intelligence, you're a whole other person, you're how you treat, you know,
#
everybody who encounters your this thing is just like, I sometimes I still think that I have this
#
trap when I meet people, I'm kind of like assessing, are you smart? Are you funny? Are
#
you intelligent in the way that I have been conditioned to define intelligence, not conditioned
#
or like I've come to define it for myself now. But and I think some of it is also valid because
#
you don't want enriching stimulating conversation, nothing wrong with that. But there's a lot more
#
to a person. And there's many dimensions of intelligence, which is what my resentment
#
with Brahmanism really is that it's not about math. It's not about, you know, academic achievement
#
and excellence. It's about many things. Intelligence can take many forms and shapes. And like I like
#
Howard Gardner's seven frames of intelligence, like it can be kinesthetic, it can be verbal,
#
it can be mathematical, spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal, which is also where like how you
#
manage relationships, how you manage yourself comes in. And I think that is actually one of
#
the biggest forms of intelligence. Because if you as an adult are taking good care of yourself,
#
you've got your own life managed. You're not like trying to be a moral, righteous savior. I think
#
that's you're ahead of the culture already. That just being good at taking care of yourself.
#
Yeah, no. And I completely agree with, you know, what you said about, I mean, it's a sobering point
#
that women should be less humble. Like, I think the Samarth and I were talking about it in a
#
different context. But the point is a reason that we only thought of that context is because we are
#
men. You know, every single woman who's ever come on the show has shown this imposter syndrome and
#
why are you calling me? What have I done? Mahima's episode, I remember, we had a long
#
conversation about imposter. And there is no man who has ever said, men are always like,
#
I find it funny and refreshing to be that way. I am like, a lot of my friends would describe
#
my humor as cocky. I'm just like in a room when I'm introduced to someone, I'm like,
#
do I even ban you with my presence? Like, do I give you attention? Like, what have you done?
#
Like, because I've been like, you know, it's almost ironic in the way I'm playing out that
#
traumatic bit. Like, if I had to do so many things to be respected at home and in society,
#
then what have you done to like, you know? Is it a fair thing to say question for both of you,
#
that men should show more humility and women should show less? Yeah, I think at this point,
#
also, like the culture is very sick of men. We're very sick of whatever masculinity has been,
#
we've been told is masculine. So a man being overconfident is no longer interesting. Like,
#
if I meet a tech bro, and he's like, I'm working on like this AI thing. And I'm like, dude, you
#
like, firstly, I think a lot of men assume that I don't know the things they're talking about. I've
#
probably read three times more than you on that. I'm sorry, but like, it's true. Like, I frequently
#
find this to be true. So I'm not going to lie. But like, you start with explaining, whereas I
#
think there are some men and many women start with curiosity. Like, have you heard of this thing?
#
It's an interesting concept. Like, why don't you just start the conversation like that, right?
#
Because then it makes me less petty about it. Because if you start by, you know, this, I'm just
#
going to explain to you, I feel like being petty in return and being like, actually, you know what,
#
I've like, I don't want to be that version of myself. I want to have intellectual humility,
#
but not when it's coming at a disservice to my gifts. And what I do know, I just feel like that
#
trade off is very easy for me to make. I'd rather be brash and bratty and uncouth about these things.
#
Can I say something, Salna, like, I'm learning so many new things about you, despite like we've
#
spoken for a while. But I have to say at this point that when we first spoke, I think that was
#
your Sanjana story, right? Like for 52, this one. Yeah, you actually helped me get some data.
#
Yeah, that's like two, two and a half years ago. And like, I've actually seen her grow so much,
#
like as a, like, we're not like talking on the phone, like every two months, but occasionally.
#
But your journey, like, actually, I hope you're like super proud of yourself. Like,
#
when you say that, I walk into a room, like, why not? Like, I've seen like so many anxieties
#
she had gone through, you know, in this time and age, building a culture as a freelance writer.
#
I mean, all of us know what it takes. Yeah. And this navigating so much. Yeah. So, yeah.
#
Thank you. I mean, I feel like this whole journey has been one of individuation.
#
I think I told you about the term, like, you just, there's no choice but to be your authentic self
#
because you get headaches and like, you like, my body will not allow me to be anything but myself.
#
Like, I've got that coded, destiny is coded within me and I've become in tune with it. And I keep
#
like, the pitfall of it, I'm always trying to guess my destiny instead of letting go and doing
#
and finding out. But I really appreciate it, dude. Thank you for noticing. I want to go on with some
#
instances of these markers, not necessarily external markers of food. So on that note,
#
let's take a quick commercial break because our food just rang the bell by itself. There is no
#
one carrying it. And after we kind of take care of the food, we shall continue.
#
We bring multiple frames with which we try to understand the world. Please join us on our
#
journey and please support us by subscribing to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash Amit
#
Varma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A. The show is called Everything is Everything. Please do check it out.
#
Welcome back from the break. I'm chatting with Sanjana,
#
Aka Sanju and Samarth, Aka Sarthak. And they're also Aka Rocky and Rani apparently.
#
Or Sasha and Sarthak. Or Sasha and Sarthak and the permutations and combinations
#
thenceforth. And Sanjana, I'm still going to, you know, keep the spotlight on you as it were,
#
because we were talking about your life and how the story you told yourself about yourself
#
changed over time. And you've written this lovely piece for the Indian Express on Dating as well,
#
where you spoke about the personal aspect of the changes that you went through at around 28, 29.
#
But you are, you were also saying earlier that it wasn't just personal, even in terms of how you
#
looked at your career or defined success or whatever, you started just looking at the world
#
differently. So let's talk a little bit about that. Because was it that, you know, from the time that
#
you were at Bits go out, when you were at IM cal, you know, looking back on hindsight, you could
#
possibly now say that I wasn't really like the others there. But at the time, how did you feel
#
at the time? How did you view your evolving life and career if one may use that word? And how you
#
know, what are the things that kind of made that change over time? I think I always felt like I was
#
different from other people. And I think I still feel that and I'm trying to, I don't know if it's
#
something to be outgrown or something to like everybody is unique in their own way. So everybody
#
feels like they're different from other people. We all feel like misfits. For me, it also co-existed
#
with this need that was instilled, I think, to be popular. And like the main character syndrome
#
did exist in me. So I felt at once like I was an outsider, but as that only has value if you're an
#
insider, I feel so when you're in with the people, which I think if you're part of an elite population,
#
which all three of us, certain like upper class of society, and you see it as an outsider,
#
you get even more status in that group, because you're the one commenting and observing on it.
#
So I felt, yeah, I always wanted to be a writer. Like I think I was a writer in the past life very
#
like, unironically, because I don't like when stories started coming to me, I didn't understand
#
why because I haven't studied it. I just I've just read a lot. So that's one explanation.
#
But this whole performance, art aspect to my own life, which is I think I've subconsciously also
#
almost put myself in dangerous situations, because then I'd have more to write about,
#
and more conflict and more drama and chaos. So there's that whole thing that maybe needs to be
#
interrogated. So I did feel different from other people. I think I do still, you know,
#
in a way that most artists do. Do you not also feel this, Samarth?
#
That I'm different. Yeah, from other people. I think I used to feel it more when I was younger.
#
You know, that classic thing, no one understands me. I am like, my context is different, etc. But
#
I think one of the greatest things my journalism career has done to me, is that the more stories
#
I heard, like hair, report, be with people and open myself to it, I think that whole sense of
#
specialness, for me, at least, like significantly reduced. And I, at least right now in the position
#
where like, I do realize about like my own individuality, and nonconformity, like freedom
#
is one of my cornerstones of personal philosophy, and what's the notion of a good life. But at the
#
same time, just recognizing, you know, like going, you know, like classic depth versus breadth,
#
spending more time with fewer people, I think that just really, really opened up me to feeling less
#
special, less unique, not the world being surrounded around me. While at the same time,
#
being able to own my individuality. So like, that's where I am right now, if you see what I'm
#
saying. I do. I think we're decoupling notions of feeling different from any kind of hubris or
#
that comes with it. Like, I feel everybody is deeply individual in their own ways, if they
#
spend time acknowledging and nurturing it, like that tension between collectivism,
#
and community, and who you are uniquely. Like, I think this in India varies also by the kind of
#
social group you're coming from. So for example, like who gets to fully express themselves, like
#
who gets to self actualize, and be totally individual, and who gets to like, who has to
#
sort of conform collectively. One example that comes to mind is like how, you know, like the
#
Dalit artists are always called Dalit artists, and others are just artists, you know, so they're the
#
collective identities kind of, and even I think from within the community, a lot of their art
#
is about anti-castes. They're not talking about caste, you know, their response to their lives,
#
you know, their individuality is actually constrained around that collectivism.
#
So yeah, that question, that tension remains something you navigate.
#
Another aspect that I'm kind of interested in, you know, from your career Sanjana, is that
#
you are a marketing person. You seem to love it from the little bits that you've,
#
from the little nuggets that you've given us, you know, you're passionate about it,
#
and at the same time you're a writer, right? And what would happen when I was much younger is that
#
the moment I began to self-identify as a writer and storyteller, I had complete disdain for
#
marketing, corporate nonsense, and all of that. Like even today, my main ethic is that a good
#
product is the best marketing, which is a rationalization for my Bengali laziness, and
#
not doing anything in that regard. You know, how did you like, at one level, it would seem
#
you went to IIM Cal and then marketing is like one of the natural things you can do.
#
But tell me about like, what are the things you were interested in? What are the kind of
#
rabbit holes you would enter? Was it a natural place for you to end up anyway? Like at one level,
#
a marketing person can be someone who does the theory and then goes in there and goes
#
through the motions and rises up till they're VP marketing in some big company. And at another
#
level, you could just be, I think, fascinated by people and a society in turn, and marketing is
#
always about understanding this shit. Like that thing you said earlier, again, is, you know,
#
about detergent is something that I think a woman is more likely to notice than a man,
#
where you spoke about your customers talking about the centrality of detergent in their
#
lives. Because if you get a good detergent, you remove the stains and your husband is happy
#
with you. And it's both heartbreaking and so revelatory. You know, so consequently, otherwise
#
also, like if it's not well removed, everybody notices because she's the one who is like looking
#
at all of that. But I think you asked many questions. And if I had to sort of break it down,
#
the first one was, is something I deal with like the dissonance between identifying because I think
#
it is at that point a choice that you identify as a writer, the way you identify as a man or a woman,
#
like it's gender at this point. But if you identify as a literary creative writer, what is a writer?
#
It's someone who's observing. And I think there's a level of criticality or criticism that is baked
#
into especially like nonfiction or journalism. If you're just like, there is explainer kind of
#
writing where you're just picking things up, Vox does that and like Tim Urban is really good at
#
that. Writers of our flavor, what Samarth writes and I think what you write, there's a lot of
#
criticism involved where there's almost a stance of this is what it is and this is what things
#
should be like or have you questioned this. And then there's of course fiction, there's many types
#
of writing. So I think a lot of writing that people do doesn't necessarily conflict with having one
#
foot in the establishment, which I do. I have one foot in the establishment as a marketer, as a
#
white collar professional and I have one foot outside the establishment that's strongly
#
anti-establishment and that streak has actually sort of got solid form as I started writing in
#
2019. But I think mentally that's where it comes in because you're in the establishment and you
#
notice all these things that are wrong with it, how women are taken less seriously, what these
#
binaries about intelligence are, how men also suffer from the patriarchy and why aren't more
#
men writing about that, right? Like when men, I feel like, sorry, that's another digression, but
#
Basically having one foot in the establishment and one outside of it, I think it brings you like,
#
and as I started, so I think context setting is having done my own marketing consulting firm,
#
it's mostly a 1% marketing agency called Storified where I worked with a number of clients
#
beyond detergent journalism, SaaS that I mentioned to now considering full-time jobs again and again
#
having a book coming out, which is anti-establishment considering being in the establishment. This
#
dissonance has not left me and I have had some amount of shame admitting that I want to make
#
money because the only way I can create art is if I'm, because I don't just, I'm not saying this
#
out of self-pity, but I don't really have a home to turn to where if my career isn't going well,
#
I can just go back home and have a room to myself and continue to do my work. I don't have that
#
space. I don't have a room to myself in the house that I was born in and it comes with a lot of
#
conflict. Like when I go home, there's all these triggers that we're all in a dysfunctional family,
#
I think like, you know, a minesweeper game waiting to implode. So I don't have a safe space,
#
so I have to have a career outside of it. And if I also have to, if I also have a vision about how
#
I want my career to be where it's actually fulfilling, then there's certain arrangement
#
that I need to make it happen for myself. So that then getting too mired in the ethics of being
#
anti-establishment and establishment start to matter less. And you realize, like I said,
#
the carnivorous nature of existence, it leads me to that because I think we're all, you know,
#
in this position where we have to compartmentalize our ideals with, you know, the nature of reality
#
itself. So as I was navigating this question, how I've made peace with it is that if it's going to
#
let me write more, if it's going to let me be my best self, and by best self, I don't mean
#
achieve ourself or conventionally successful self, I just mean like, I want to thrive in life,
#
I don't want to suffer, I don't want to have a guilty conscience about leading a good life,
#
which I think a lot of privileged people take guilt or awareness to be their free pass. Like,
#
if I show that I'm aware of the problems, and I show that we should all be thinking about this,
#
feeling guilty about this, my Instagram is littered in Israel, Palestine posts, and I'm about
#
boycotting the brands. Like, I don't think that's super, I don't find that meaningful,
#
I don't find like, of course, I mean, everybody has to find their way of responding to society's
#
big problems. But mine has been arranging a life where I can thrive. And I don't think that's
#
selfish. I don't think that's narcissistic. I think we're all like, you know, in that carnivorous
#
nature, what will enable me to do my best, the way I treat the people around me, how equitable
#
I am in my dealings with people I hire, for example, my maid is an employee, if I'm able
#
to give her like a stable job and pay her well, and like all of that, I think that's a big win
#
for me. Because I've arranged my life for that to happen. So that's how I've been dealing with
#
this dissonance. I don't know if it's satisfactory. I don't know if it's moral. But I think it's true.
#
I think I have you guys, you must have navigated this question.
#
I mean, I don't see a way I mean, I don't see why morality would come into it. I think you make
#
your choices according to the way you want to live your life. And I realized at some point that I
#
want to wake up every morning looking forward to the work I'm going to do that day. And therefore,
#
I chose a life that I did that I'm never going to work in a company and I'm going to do my own
#
thing. And while it's a source of frustration that many of the things I really wanted to do,
#
I haven't yet been able to do. But I wake up every day doing work I love like this podcast. And
#
that's a privilege. And that was the second part of my question that you clearly also love
#
marketing. You know, so tell me a bit more about that, because I would imagine and forgive me if
#
this is a caricature from the past, or maybe only I got scarred in the corporate world. But my sense
#
is that in companies in the corporate world, in the big companies, you're surrounded by people
#
who are going through the motions and were fundamentally mediocre. And in your case,
#
it would be even more frustrating because they're fundamentally mediocre men who think they're
#
awesome. What has that sort of journey been like? Like, what's motivated you to just like,
#
offline, you've just been mentioning one book after another, you just drop them. So you're
#
clearly like passionate about the shit you're reading up on it. You really know the shit.
#
I'll tell you. So a few things that have driven me in whatever I've picked up is, is it new and
#
challenging? So if there's a lot for me to learn, and I feel that flow state happening, like where
#
I don't realize time passing, this is absorbing to me, then I'm invested. And the things that
#
has not happened for me, for example, I just knew intuitively, I never wanted to be a doctor.
#
Blood does not appeal to me. I don't like when I was dissecting a frog at some lab experiment
#
and I was like, this, you know, keep it to science, the other part of science, keep it to like,
#
so I've been led by curiosity and a need for intellectual absorption. And that happened with
#
STEM until I felt like I explored it. I understand it. I think you know a field when you know your
#
strengths and you know your weaknesses and you know what you don't know. And I got to that point
#
with coding and I was like, do I see myself being the best at it? Probably. I'm not bad at all,
#
but I'm not going to be like the guy who invented this game. Doom, I forget his name. John Cormack,
#
Mac Cormack. Yeah, I'm not going to be the very best. So why bother forever? Also the culture,
#
like the nature of those environments, maybe there's more out there and I'm super creative.
#
I haven't channeled that yet. I have always been fascinated by because I think the world runs on
#
brands, right? Like every personal setback I've had, I've only been able to correct myself and
#
earn respect again by being affiliated with the right brands. So at home, it's about
#
tier one bits and tier one iron gal. And then they're like, oh, she's smart. I'm not smart
#
unless I have those brands. So I think brands are actually part of how you form your identity and
#
selfhood in a world where religion is not the defining order, but work is. So we've all got a
#
CV and a resume to show that we're reputable people. We belong to a certain class because
#
the brands we're associated with. So I'm deeply interested in the relationship between the self
#
and brands and how do you captivate and the attachment. Even becoming aware of the mechanisms
#
of marketing and how it ensnares you. I am so vulnerable to it. Like this, my self-esteem is
#
attached to my iPhone. I lost it in June and I got one like immediately, even though like
#
next three days, I was like, damn, that's how fragile this foundation is. Because
#
getting one had become such a milestone for me. Like I didn't get one until because I had this
#
phone breaking, screen losing kind of scene. I was like, I'm only going to get one when I'm
#
a sordid adult. And I became a sordid adult and I lost it. So I was like, I can't let this happen.
#
I have to claw my fight back and got an iPhone immediately. So I think the way it... And also,
#
if you also are aware of the changing nature of people and relationships, it's much easier
#
to have a relationship with a product and a brand because it's much easier. You can completely
#
control it. So objects become part of your aesthetic. They become part of how you define
#
and see the world. So I think brands are like hugely central to how you navigate life. I sound
#
almost religious right now, I feel. I am more curious, like you feel you are a sordid adult?
#
Yeah. How does it happen? I will tell you what I define by sordid. Like you've got your house
#
finances in order, you know, like, okay, you know, you're able to weather difficult situations,
#
you're resilient, you're not like... Emotional regulation is there. So if something bad happens,
#
you're not spiraling and, you know, taking it out on other people. That is what I mean by being an
#
adult. You know, something that I tell my younger friends, and I think Samarth, you'll agree with
#
me, is that this adulthood nonsense, no, it's a scam. It is a total scam. When we are kids, we think
#
that we will become adults, everything will be sorted out. But then you realize at some point
#
that everybody's winging it. Yes. And you also have to wing it. And so there's like this emotional
#
self-regulation, like who gets it right? Do I get it right? I don't. Do you get it right, Samarth?
#
You don't, but she does. I think I do. I'm surprised. I'm aware of emotions as they arise.
#
I ask myself if I want to express something, what's the value of it? Is this a battle I want
#
to fight? Do I gain anything by being honest emotionally? As a friend, should I be honest
#
here and tell this person that I think what he's like and call them out? These are questions I ask
#
myself before I act on my impulses. Here's a question for both of you. And I might have asked
#
some of this, but still is that like, is there a point in time where you became more self-aware
#
or have you always been self-aware in the sense that you clearly are now? Because just looking
#
back on my own journey, I think for a significant part of my life, I had no freaking self-awareness.
#
I was just going through the motions and playing the game. And then at some point you start
#
reflecting and you start learning about yourself as it were. So is there a point in time when that
#
gradually happened and can you look back on that younger person and say, what the fuck was I doing?
#
Wasn't thinking. And that's part one. And part two is that is it a blessing or a curse? Because
#
I think it can also come with cons. There is a certain amount of comfort in not looking too hard
#
at yourself. I'm smiling because the phrase that came, I think I've been sickeningly self-aware.
#
For far too long. Why do you say sickeningly? Because awareness is a burden. Sometimes you
#
just want, and I think a lot of substance abuse, which I've some, you know, part of my life
#
gone through and come out of. It's a desire for escape from your own thoughts and your own like
#
the weight, unbearable weight of them at times, like how much you can think and feel.
#
But I would say I've always been aware of my train of thought. Like I can, I remember my
#
journals from when I was 13, 16. That's when I first diagnosed my parents' marriage as failing.
#
And I was like, you guys clearly have issues. And I remember thinking back to what I must have been
#
to have written that then. Like I don't have a flattering objective in mind at all. But like,
#
you know, it's a lot of awareness. And I think it's definitely useful. Like you definitely need
#
to have self-knowledge because again, it's that whole, you know, in the sea of reality,
#
and you're in an ocean, you're swimming, you need some guiding principles and self-knowledge can be
#
one of those anchors that this is who I want. This is what I feel drawn to. And you navigate
#
the current by being true to yourself. I also think like self-aware can seem a burden, but I
#
would rather be that way rather than the other one, because again, I have like, like we talked
#
about in the previous episodes, so not going into details, but for me, what like a better
#
understanding of the self, I think it makes you, I at least hope it makes you a better person
#
for other people also, because the more attuned you are to your own emotions, your own insecurities,
#
your fears, your anxieties, what gives you joy, etc. Absolutely. That like, depending on where
#
it takes you, I think it makes me more empathetic to other people. And one like one of my favorite
#
directors is Ingmar Bergman. And Bergman has, you know, in his fascinating TV series Scenes from a
#
Marriage, there is an episode and he's talked about it elsewhere also, about this idea of
#
humans being emotionally illiterate. Okay, and there's an episode called like, I think,
#
Emotionally Illiterate something, where, again, like I can't quote, like quote him directly,
#
like his words, but his point was that, you know, we talk about geography or, you know, these facts
#
about history or science, but how many of us like really are attuned with our own emotions,
#
and because we don't understand ourselves, we just completely fail as human beings to understand
#
people around us. And that emotional illiteracy is, you know, becomes a cause of unhappiness,
#
it keeps going down the rabbit hole. So of course, knowing more about yourself, and like there are
#
so many times when I feel like, damn it, like I'm such a shallow person, I had this image of myself,
#
but it's not who I am. It's uncomfortable, but that's also liberating, because the moment
#
I feel that, okay, I'm not a project that every day I'm going to wake up and work on myself,
#
because I'm finding 10 flaws in myself, that just makes me, you know, like more human and like
#
they're enjoying the imperfections of people around me. So I think that is something that
#
self-awareness, like level one is that you understand yourself, but level two is that it just
#
makes you appreciate people around you much more better. So that's what I mean,
#
that I would rather be this way and live with this discomfort than, you know, accepting notions about
#
and not really questioning. But I'm sure there are, but do you both think that there are people
#
who are self-aware and people who are not? And I think this also treads along that main character
#
slash NPC kind of thing where, of course, I feel like everybody has a degree of complexity, right?
#
So are self-aware people more complex or I mean, is that, you know, like are there people who are
#
totally unaware of themselves? I think there must be like, I think yes, there are, to a large extent.
#
And I think, and again, based on the few things you said about your dad, I don't want to extrapolate,
#
but it would sound to me that a person like that must have a certain lack of self-awareness.
#
But yes, in moments, his humor will indicate to me that he knows what's happening, like he's cracked
#
jokes about himself, where it's like, oh, so you know what's going on. You know, you know.
#
That's interesting. But I have seen people who are like...
#
So which leads me to think that the problem is about emotional regulation then, even though
#
you know what you are, like you don't have the prefrontal cortex strength of, which takes me to
#
like disorders, personality disorders, and like, you know, do you, maybe there's like an illness
#
that's not diagnosed at times.
#
Yeah, but you know, here's the thing, I'll bring up a couple of points here and you can tell me what
#
you think about them. And one of them is that we'll often look at someone who's got some kind
#
of mental illness, and we'll say that, you know, that have some sympathy for the guy, it's that
#
mental illness, which makes him that way, right? What I'm saying is it's not a dichotomy. It's a,
#
you know, there's a continuum there. And I think everyone to that extent, to some extent,
#
underestimates a level to which they are not really in control.
#
Thank you for saying this.
#
And underestimates a level to which, like, if you read Robert Sapolsky's great book, Behave,
#
you know, you realize that you think that you're autonomous and you're making all your old
#
decisions, but at various different levels, you are not. And one level is an immediate level,
#
ki aapne usin breakfast khaya ki nahi, maybe you're hangry, that's why you're behaving like that.
#
Then another level, it is a chemical composition of your brain. Chris Connell killed himself
#
because he was on some drugs that had that as a side effect, right? So he thinks he's feeling
#
low and that's an authentic feeling, but it's caused by a chemical imbalance within him,
#
or it goes back all the way to your genes and so on and so forth. And there's an interplay of so
#
many layers of causality that, you know, like the Sapolsky's book after that is called Determined,
#
which is about how there's no free will, which I agree with at an intellectual level.
#
Though I always say that even if there's no free will, we must behave as a society as if there is,
#
otherwise you can just say ki koi kuch bhi kare uski galti nahi hai.
#
But at a deeper level, that's kind of true.
#
And I think you need to have awareness of both these levels because it's what's,
#
and I'm going to say, it's what's helped me develop forgiveness and compassion for my father.
#
And for anyone who's hurt me, it's not just my, like I've attracted, like I said,
#
no, because the wound is actually at some level in you now, and then you are
#
psychologically vulnerable to a certain kind of experience thereafter. And so
#
you need to, to heal, you need to be able to forgive and accept that,
#
that psychic scar tissue exists and then grow around it. And that can only happen, I think,
#
with this degree of acceptance, right? Like sometimes people are not in control and sometimes
#
they have been conditioned in horrible ways. And sometimes they don't have the emotional
#
regulation is all these. And maybe they don't even have free will. Maybe I don't have free will.
#
And just to add, like, I mean, I have, as a consequence of the nature of my family dynamics,
#
treated my brother like shit because he sided with my father on the whole thing.
#
And that to me, I thought, yeah, he's a kid. He's like 10 years younger than me,
#
which is now quite old. But I don't know, viscerally, I feel like there's an energy
#
that's coming that I'm not, I can't control when I'm, you know, like I feel so violent
#
and I feel so angry that, I mean, I have behaved in ways that I wouldn't endorse and condone later.
#
And I would like to think that's not who I am. So being in touch with your darkness and your own
#
dark side, I think will make you more empathetic to other people. Because if you're capable of it
#
and you've seen other people capable of it, the only way out is to forgive yourself
#
and other people. So, yeah, I think we need to have that second level of awareness as well.
#
Like, yes, you don't have a free pass on reality. So try not to be an asshole. But then when someone
#
is that, there's just so much going on. I also have this uncomfortable feeling,
#
right? Like the moment we get into this path about, let's say, biological determinism
#
or hormones. Or even so, I mean, everything is nature plus nurture, but the bottom line is...
#
Next society, you grow up. Like that, I think it helps to make sense of the situation.
#
But the point at which I feel uncomfortable is that when it starts becoming the justification.
#
I think it's useful as explanation, not exculpation.
#
Yeah. Like you were talking about, like, let's say men, if you talk about masculinity today,
#
of course, like, again, again, growing up, you realize that, yes, like men are also
#
have faced the burden of patriarchy. We behave in ways that actually hurts us.
#
Yes. Until you unlearn patterns of patriarchy and it's not from one side, right? Like you...
#
It's about yourself. But the moment you realize patriarchy also hurt me, that's when you
#
actually understand why patriarchy is problematic in general and more for women.
#
By the way, aside here, my two most popular episodes of the show are called, guess what?
#
Shreyana's and Nikhil's.
#
Yeah. So Loneliness of the Indian Woman and Loneliness of the Indian Man, which, you know,
#
so I think this episode should be quite popular because you bring these two lonelinesses together.
#
But my episode with Nikhil was about exactly what you were talking about.
#
I have a lot of questions.
#
No, what I'm asking you is that now when you experience this, like with men in corporate
#
set up in relationships, right? Like if you know, and like at one point, once you're aware,
#
that is not enough. Like you have to act on it.
#
If somebody is an asshole, you have to treat him like an asshole.
#
Yeah. You can't excuse that.
#
Going back to Amit's point, which is that you need to understand the deeper layer of
#
question mark reality and just so that you can understand it and navigate it. But then when
#
you're treating people, treat them by the conventional mores and dictates, which is
#
if someone is behaved badly with you, treat it as a law word, right? Like he deserves to be
#
punished for it. He deserves to be called out for it. And so does she.
#
So how do you like, do you have a story? Like how do you deal with this?
#
Well, I've called the cops on my dad and yeah, I've gone that far. I did think that, I mean,
#
he was a danger to, he was a danger. There was an instance of physical, and it's interesting in
#
touching because actually it happened when I was not at home. I was in Bangalore. My brothers and
#
family, they were in Bombay and something happened at home. And Sandeep, the brother that
#
I'm not actually where, don't see eye to eye on anything now, but he called me then for help.
#
And I told him what to do. And now eight years later, he's got a completely different view of
#
things. And he thinks that, I don't know, there's a lot of resentment between
#
the two of us, maybe because growing up, they were always compared to me because I was the older one,
#
the kid who had academically done the things that they were then pushed into and to different
#
degrees of unwillingness, maybe all that. So, I mean, these dynamics then take on such multi-layered
#
issues. So I think the way to, you know, like speaking of those psychological vulnerabilities,
#
one of the people I dated was a super self-aware, the funniest sort of kind of a maverick kind of
#
guy, but who kept making the same mistake over and over again. And I, because I've been conditioned
#
to think that's what love is, conditioned not by the culture necessarily, but psychologically
#
imprinted based on the dynamics that I've seen and internalized at home because he's so great
#
and intellectually fulfilling and stimulating in so many other ways. And he's been through,
#
you know, the worst and he's seen me through the divorce. And I can put up with his bad behavior
#
and everybody's got their flaws. What love is perfect. Until you give up, until you're just
#
like, sure. Seven, eight times I've been really stupid. And I can't even say stupid, right? Like
#
it's almost like having a limp. Is that stupid? Like it's just a deformity in some ways.
#
But did it take like an external, like someone else had to, like whatever patterns were happening
#
is that you came up with your friends, told you about it.
#
My friends had by that point recognized that it's a self-sabotage kind of thing,
#
but they also knew that I'm an adult and she needs to make her mistakes. Like, you know,
#
telling someone what not to do and what to do rarely ever helps. They were there for me,
#
even in the aftermath of it. So it was that Kusha Kapila Reels come to mind,
#
so they were, they were not patronizing and paternalizing about it. They were they were
#
aware and empathetic. The reason I ask is because of things like it's also very gendered in the
#
sense of making some observations. So I were like a lot of very close female friends and
#
who are married or in relationships. And one of the patterns that I see
#
is that when they say that, you know, like my boyfriend or to my husband, like I have to,
#
like I have to teach them how to be with me, right? Like there's some behaviors that they
#
have not learned. Like then if this person is left alone to live by themselves, they can't.
#
So, but before they come and live with me, you know, they need to learn and be an adult.
#
So I see the dichotomy where on one end they say, it's not my job to teach you.
#
Like you should have learned, but they also like because of the love and affection,
#
they're like, maybe I need to give them a chance. But I've really heard a man talking about it.
#
So I was wondering in this context, again, you know, we started by talking about key over your
#
shaped by this, and you know, this whole India may, you know, in that, like, how do you think
#
about it about what you're saying? So how did I become, how did I deal with it? It was by
#
re traumatizing myself in some ways, like those patterns happening often enough for me to realize
#
that it's a pattern and not what love is. Like it's a psychological issue where you're seeking
#
kind of love that feels familiar, but it was always inherently a little unstable, not healthy
#
for you. So de-prioritize what you think is important about love, like intellectual chemistry
#
and search for a good partner instead. So that's something I'm still working through, which is why
#
like I'm single, like I haven't worked through it. So that's one thing. I think how I became aware
#
of it is not because nobody else is clued into my life's context the way I am except for you two now
#
starting today. But that was one thing. And the second thing being what you're saying,
#
the point you were making later about women feeling like they need to educate the man and
#
to the emotional shape of the relationship she wants to have. There's a French feminist called
#
Mona Shalo. I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name right. She's written this book called
#
reinventing love, how the patriarchy ruined heterosexual relations. And basically about how
#
like these gender roles that men and women have learned that they need to occupy, like
#
men being a little aloof and sort of emotionally unaware and sort of that's their allure. And that's
#
what they've been conditioned to think is what it means to be an attractive man. And meanwhile,
#
the woman sort of being the, you know, emotional glue and teaching and sort of, oh, he's a man
#
child, I'm going to tolerate him and grow him into my partner. We've seen that trope even like in
#
friends, like when Monica and Chandler start dating Chandler's kind of a boy child, he doesn't know
#
how to make a serious relationship work. And you know, they work it out and they have a happy
#
relationship, but it is on screen. So all these ideas that I think they do more damage than like
#
what the culture has told us about what love is. It's so deeply irreversible, I think.
#
Irreversible. Yeah, because if generations will continue to grow up with
#
these notions of what a man is. Forget yourself, forget society.
#
I think that me and a few other very evolved creators, psychologically mature, spiritual
#
women kind of, there's an archetype I have, because I have a few other friends like this.
#
We struggle with this like dichotomy between what we've been told love is. So we kind of crave the
#
oh, I'm just a girl, there's going to be a guy who comes and takes care of me and makes me feel
#
like I can just be I can switch off my masculine side and come home and I'll be babied and taken
#
care of and the protector provider and I'm the feminine that that archetype we want. But then
#
when we get into those, those kind of equations, it feels off because some the other side, the
#
flip side of it is like the if someone is the protector and provider, the controlling part of
#
it, like don't maybe stay out late with your guy friends, maybe why are you like talking to 10
#
other? I have a lot of male friends and I will be sort of fairly open, like sometimes crash at their
#
place and stuff. Someone has a problem with that. Then I start to bristle at the protectiveness
#
part of it. So I feel like we crave this cultural ideal of love, but when we get it, it feels off
#
and there needs to be a more egalitarian individual where both people are masculine and feminine and
#
they've integrated that for themselves. So, I mean, every man has a woman inside, every woman
#
has a man inside, psyche is androgynous, right? Like you may lean towards one gender, but like
#
you have both within you and when those are in balance, I think I hope to encounter people
#
who are integrated in their own because you can tell like speaking of people who aren't self-aware,
#
you can tell when a man is insecure about his masculinity. Yeah, very easily, very easily.
#
And unless a man comes to terms with this femininity, he will be insecure about his
#
masculinity because true masculinity is actually integrated both sides of you and I think the same
#
applies for the other gender too. So I want to double click on something you said earlier,
#
but first I'll just make the observation that, and I'm thinking aloud here that, you know,
#
one of the curses of self-reflection is or self-awareness is when you're self-aware
#
of something that you're doing wrong, but you can't help it, you do it anyway. Absolutely.
#
Right. And that's such a curse and example I'm thinking of in my own context is the amount of
#
online chess I play, which is really not healthy and I know it's wrong and I curse myself, but I
#
do it anyway. But there are many broader, deeper, more harmful ways in which that plays out in all
#
our lives. What I'm going to double click on is something you said near the start of the episode
#
and you know, where you said that there is an inherent masculinity and an inherent, you know,
#
so double click on that because I'll tell you what my thoughts on it are and they sort of
#
dovetail with something that Samarth was talking earlier about how we are all trying to fight
#
our hard wiring, right? And the thing is that what one learns where you study evolutionary biology
#
enough and evolutionary psychology is that we are, that men and women are wired fundamentally
#
different in certain ways. It is not just that our bodies have evolved differently, so have our
#
brains. And that is a curse that we have to continue to deal with. Now the way the
#
andro-tates of the world would deal with that is that they would just embrace the hard wiring
#
and they would amplify those aspects of our nature. And, you know, for example, you know,
#
women are hardwired to want stability. You're going to have one baby. It's going to take nine
#
months. You want a man with status. Men are hardwired to want to be promiscuous because
#
you want to spread your seed, et cetera, et cetera. These are biological facts. Now,
#
unfortunately, we live in a world where many of these biological facts were hardcoded into
#
this toxic patriarchy that we speak about. And luckily over the last three, four hundred years,
#
we've begun to fight this and some of it with self-awareness and some of it with just, you know,
#
writing more about it, spreading the word, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So in that sense,
#
I think that number one, it is true that there is an essence that men and women in an essential
#
fundamental way are different. Number two, I think that they're not as different as you think that,
#
like you pointed out, many men can have, you know, be quote unquote feminine in certain ways
#
and vice versa. And number three, we all have to fight this fucking shit and be self-aware about
#
it so that we can be better with each other. Right. So these are these are the thoughts that
#
were sparked off when you said that. What did you mean and what are your observations?
#
I think you've sort of laid out my trajectory of like thought on this as well, but just
#
double click what I meant when I said that. So why at some point did feminism even arise?
#
Because the roles that women were in and the roles that men were in, they weren't equitable
#
at some point. And if it did happen, say, for example, that men as the providers, go-getters,
#
the outside the home work, they were it was safe for women to embrace their inside the home role.
#
Maybe there wouldn't have been a need for feminism, but at some point there was abuse,
#
there was violence, there was domestic, there was self-actualization, like there was multiple
#
levels of, you know, oppression there. There was like survival at question if there was domestic
#
violence and there was the question of whether I get to intellectually explore all the things
#
that I as a woman have been told I can't do. And similarly, the flip side for men, can men go,
#
can men be into fashion and all of that. Those are restrictive and therefore there has been
#
the feminist response. Where I think, you know, the challenge rises if you completely shun
#
those biological roots also. So for example, I think this drive for overachievement,
#
this complete disregard of my feminine nature, as opposed to what the culture told me my femininity
#
was. Because from the outside, you know, I have been discovering my femininity as it appears to
#
me through my inner work and stuff. And I was like, shit, I have not been in touch with my
#
feminine side. I've just been out there out and about seeing the world in a very, quote unquote,
#
masculine way. And what I mean by that is, if I had to be very loose and broad about a subject
#
that's actually very nuanced and prone to being misunderstood and controversial. But Jung, Carl
#
Jung, who's shaped a lot of my thoughts on this, he says that like the masculine energy is like a
#
spiritual drive to perfection. It's all about like that end goal, goal oriented seeking, taking
#
something large and cutting it up into problems, which I therefore get why people think math is
#
masculine in the sense it is. Because by nature of it, not that men are only masculine and math
#
is only accessible to the masculine. But it's about that principle that are organizing more
#
of the psyche that's about cutting things up and splitting it and giving it order and like seeking
#
goal orientation. Linearness, I think even literary criticism has said that linear storytelling is
#
masculine and so on. Whereas the feminine mode of consciousness is receptive, you know, it's
#
whole. It takes things as a whole. It's not about cutting it up. It's about it's not got a goal.
#
It's about diffuse orientation. It's like its ideation, its way of generating creativity is
#
not so structured. And what I thought was me being feminine was, you know, me looking good and dressing
#
up and looking like a woman. But actually, it's about not having trying to cut everything up in
#
my life into projects, which I was doing at the time I was my sort of scientific STEM career was
#
a project. My MBA career was a project. My love life had become a project that if I meet someone
#
by the age of 27, I'll date him for two years. By the time we're 29 and a half, we'll get married
#
and boom, that's when I had the rebellion coming from inside saying that this is all inauthentic
#
to you. You don't even know what's inside you yet. So that's, I think feminine consciousness,
#
it's also about letting go. It's about letting a sort of working with the universe to co-create
#
your reality and sort of insisting, you know, and imposing your will on it all the time.
#
It's actually truly growing up if you've integrated your feminine side. So what I mean
#
by inherent masculinity and femininity is this, like your approach to the way your consciousness
#
is dealing with reality and that method of interfacing with it. And when they are in balance,
#
I think, so Jung also says that the psyche is androgynous. So it's also not like everyone is,
#
you know, 50% yin and yang. For some people, their true expression is maybe a lot of femininity and
#
less masculinity and a lot of masculinity and less femininity, which is where the queer identities
#
come in, right? So there, he said that, you know, that was their expression of androgyny,
#
the way their gender balance. So what is this term? Androgyny. Androgyny. What does it mean?
#
Equally masculine and feminine. Or neither masculine and feminine, I guess. Yeah. Can
#
you look it up actually? I don't know if it's equally or neither, but probably. Let's do it
#
right now. It's a state of having both masculine and feminine characteristics.
#
The term comes from the Greek words andros meaning men and gyn meaning women.
#
Which is when I was first encountering these ideas, I was like, am I actually non-binary? Am I
#
going to start saying they, them all the time? But no, I kind of grew up thinking I was a
#
girl. And like I had, I actually had this teenage era where my cousin and I discussed what it means
#
to be a girl. Like in hindsight, I now have, get the political import of what she was saying,
#
but she was like, you need to wear a hairband and you need to stop wearing such loose clothes and
#
dress like a girl. And like my socialization into femininity happened through, you learn how to be
#
a woman from other women and other women are looking at women on screen. And like I had the
#
whole, one of the chapters in my book is about the eating disorder that my generation was
#
indoctrinated into thanks to Kareena Kapoor in the movie Tashan. Cause that's when she came,
#
we were all like 13, 14, 15 when the size zero bikini became a thing. And we were all like,
#
we want to be a popular girl. That's how you need to look. And like I only grew out of it in the
#
last three, four years. So our question, one aspect of this is like really interesting to me is that
#
at one level you speak about how you were looking at your life in terms of projects as your right
#
men tend to do. And, and at another level that the moment you broke out of that is, you know,
#
you were in, you left aside that quote unquote masculine way of looking at the world and just
#
kind of embrace what you call your femininity. But that appears to be the precise moment where
#
you actually broke away from the life plan that the world lays out for women. That, you know,
#
okay, you had your career, you've done your thing, you had your, for now it's time to get married.
#
And that's a precise moment where you decided not to follow that traditional stereotypical path that
#
a woman would be expected of. But it came out of a place where you stopped thinking like a man and
#
just, you know, allow yourself to be you. Yeah. I think to go back to the point is that femininity
#
is not just being pretty. It's not about liking pinkness. It could be just that, right? Like I
#
think the feminine principle is caught in this bind where because certain things were imposed on
#
it and that, that principle itself was abused. It was devalued in society. It's always been
#
considered inferior. Everything that it was associated with is now suspect. So if I like
#
pink, then I'm too girly. If I, if I'm good at maths, then I'm like a man. There's always like
#
this double bind where, you know, damned, if you do damned, if you don't kind of scene.
#
And the bizarre thing is that if, you know, the stereotypes are so ingrained that if you start
#
feeling in particular ways that seem masculine, you then start going off into other looking for
#
other terminology like non-binary. Exactly. Where you need not, you are who you are.
#
Exactly. Which is why I let go of that strain of thought because I was like, actually,
#
womanhood is non-binary. As a being, when you're being a woman also, there's, there's no definition
#
of like, if you're this, then you're a woman. So, I mean, I stuck to she, her, and I don't think I'm
#
non-binary. I think I'm very much a woman who's in touch with her masculine side. And to your point
#
about like, I think femininity is your own thing. Like you have to discover what it is for you. It's
#
a spiritual journey. It's an inner journey that you want to take that of course influences everything
#
you do outside of it. Like I'm getting more tattoos. I'm dressing differently. It does affect
#
your aesthetic and your self-presentation too. But it's not just that. It's not.
#
I have a question for you. Like, you know, isn't that the thing that we talk like 90s, 90s kids
#
grow up and we realize that labels don't matter, you know, because even like, what is masculine,
#
what is feminine? These are all ultimately labels. Yeah. And you grow up to realize that actually
#
labels is very simplistic way to look at ourselves. Yeah. And we start fitting ourselves into it.
#
So one of the things I've been thinking about a lot is, you know, this whole idea that language
#
shapes thought. Yeah. Like once I verbalize this means this, then suddenly then you get your
#
framework to say this is how people are or I am rather than being fluid about it. And like,
#
the cliche goes, right, being yourself. So even in these distinctions, like, you know, you've been
#
talking about what is feminine, what is masculine, how it shaped yourself. I'm curious, like,
#
do you think like it really matters? Like, I absolutely love pink, right? Like my wardrobe
#
is full of like a pink shirt, pink shorts, like I want more pink. And then there are aspects of it
#
that, you know, in terms of how I'm at work, you can call it masculine, all of it. After one point,
#
it just started feeling so meaningless because the moment any kind of classification comes in,
#
it feels like I'm restricting myself in some ways. Even it comes in like the context of dating or
#
what you do. It's like, guys don't do this and you know, all of those things. And then like,
#
I feel this is the right way to be. Yeah. So does it create a conflict for you because
#
I think it matters to the point where you can get to where it doesn't matter. So if you've gone
#
through the journey and you've integrated it, then it doesn't matter. You're an agendered, free,
#
autonomous, self-aware individual. Agendered, I mean, you are a man, but your masculinity and
#
femininity are both so understood and integrated within you that it doesn't matter. Like you said,
#
like it doesn't matter that it's so pink or whatever, right? Like it doesn't have to be a
#
radical choice. But I think you do need to go through that journey where it does matter.
#
But I think- To make it visible to yourself, is that-
#
Yeah, you have a relation, conscious relationship with both.
#
But it also, like I get that it can stop mattering to you, but it can't completely stop
#
mattering simply because of society. For example, I cry really easily, right? So I cry randomly.
#
There might not even be something sad. A beautiful sentence and tears will come to my eyes, right?
#
And whenever I'm in public and that happens, I feel like super conscious about it because man,
#
right? Because you're not supposed to do that. And that friction and that my feeling super
#
conscious about it would not happen if I would happen less if I was a woman and would happen,
#
would not happen if I had completely managed to internalize it. But it still matters how,
#
you know, at some subterranean level that I can't help, I still feel-
#
Because you're in a context of society where these things matter.
#
Yeah, so then I still feel a little embarrassed.
#
I think it will, like it need not matter to you individually. And I think that's,
#
that's a level you want to get to. But to just like connect this back to that trajectory of
#
that evolution of this thought, right? There is an inherent masculinity and femininity
#
that has been weaponized by conservatism, to conservatism's end, not the individual's ends.
#
So, you know, use it for your own ends and your own self enrichment and thriving.
#
But then what after that, like, what do we make of this? So I find that shunning the idea of
#
inherent, let's not even call it masculinity and femininity, let's call it A and B,
#
because there are two modes of the psyche and how energy flows through the world.
#
Everybody has an A and B and it's in their proportion, their own thing to discover. But
#
just the complete rejection of like, for example, that they don't even exist.
#
You know, like hormones don't exist. Women, like, for example, don't create stability,
#
whatever those correlations are with A and B. Shunning them, I think, doesn't help because you
#
need to be in tune with what this is to you, what level of A and B is in you. And I think I,
#
you know, slightly half formed thoughts, but when someone is transitioning, for example,
#
they are born with gender dysmorphia and they feel like they belong to the other gender,
#
what are they defaulting to? Like those inherent idea of A and B, right? So it does exist. And so
#
I think a lot of the movement that shuns it is also the one that in many ways believes in it.
#
Which I don't think, like, for example, like, I don't even know what JK Rowling has said.
#
I don't even know. I just know that everybody hates her because she's a
#
trans exclusionary radical feminist turf. But if you, if so, it's probably not
#
something I endorse what I'm about to say, because I don't, I haven't studied it fully. But
#
if she's saying that there is something that's total womanhood, that is what trans men are then
#
aspiring to in their conversion, then she's not wrong about that is what I'm saying.
#
So I have kind of looked deeply into it and have arguments with it. And I'll often,
#
to anyone who is dissing Rowling, I will often tell them that, you know, show me what she has
#
written, not from what others have said about her, but what she has written, which is transphobic,
#
because my reading of it is that she is a perfect liberal in the sense that she believes, like I'm
#
sure all three of us do, that every individual should be free to live their lives exactly as
#
they want as long as they are not infringing anyone else's rights. If you want to identify
#
as whatever you identify as that, and it is good etiquette to respect that and no one should at
#
all get in your way. What she objected to was something that became ridiculously dogmatic,
#
you know, within the movement, which said that biological sex is not real. Now we can say that,
#
okay, gender is a continuum, and you can identify yourself wherever on that thing.
#
But biological sex is real, right? And even if you disagree that it is real,
#
it is a reasonable argument to have. Nowhere is Rowling saying that in the context of,
#
you know, that men should not be allowed to transition or call themselves women or whatever.
#
The context of it was that there had become an increasing number of cases, and it's restricted
#
to three contexts, that there had become an increasing number of cases where men are saying,
#
I identify as a woman, at no point doing transitioning or anything, but just saying,
#
identify as a woman, and therefore going into women's toilets, women's jails, and women's
#
transports, exactly these three and no others. And in these particular contexts, her point was
#
that feminists fought a battle for decades to build these safe spaces for ourselves.
#
And now all a man has to do to get in is say that I identify as a woman, which is not to say that
#
all trans people will necessarily commit violence or anything ridiculous like that, those strawman
#
accusations were thrown. But the whole point was that preserve those safe spaces at least,
#
you know, my position on it is if you transition, then that's fine, you know, but you can't just
#
a dude with a beard can't just say that, hey, I identify as whatever. I mean, male rapists
#
with functioning penises have been housed in women's prisons and have gone on to commit rape
#
in those prisons. This is just crazy. And this is a dogma carried too far. And this was Rowling's
#
whole kind of point. But unfortunately, within that particular ideological movement, this has
#
become a bit like blasphemies in Pakistan. Like if you know the blasphemy law there,
#
if you are accused of blasphemy in Pakistan, like if you Samarth are accused of blasphemy in
#
Pakistan, I Amit cannot come and say that someone did not commit blasphemy. I can't even say that.
#
I will automatically be assumed to have blasphemed. And therefore, if you defend Rowling like Chimamanda
#
Adichie did, you are assumed to be transphobic. And if you defend Chimamanda Adichie, you are
#
also assumed to be transphobic. And this is just insane. What is the core criticism of Rowling?
#
Like at the base of it, what is the argument? There's no argument that she's transphobic.
#
There is a slur that she's transphobic. And they've identified something called trans-exclusive
#
radical feminist, which is only a slur word. No one self identifies like that because it would be
#
ridiculous, right? To me, every reasonable person is a feminist because what you are saying is that
#
everyone should be treated equally. And therefore, you can't be trans exclusionary. The term itself
#
is incoherent and doesn't make sense and is used as a pejorative. And my point is that you look at
#
what she is saying, which is normative. And if she was normatively saying that you treat trans
#
people differently, that would be terrible. But that is absolutely not the case. She made a narrow
#
point. Like a friend of hers, Maya, for starter, first made the point and then they jumped on Maya
#
and then Rowling defended Maya and then they jumped on her. And that's where the whole controversy
#
blew up. And the only point Maya, for starter, was making is that, look, everyone should be
#
treated equally, but let's not pretend that there's no such thing as biological sex. And I'll link to
#
an excellent piece by Colin Wright on this and so on and so forth. But yeah, but this was-
#
No, but it's like super clar- like, I love that you just provided this context because I think
#
it makes the point that we're talking about well, right? Like in saying that there is an A and a B
#
and there is, it originates around biological sex, you should not then be bucketed with very,
#
very, like, and then that leads to a discussion about the brokenness of modern discourse. Like,
#
why can't you say these things without being called the worst expletives? I'm sure, you know,
#
this, what she's making is a reasonable and nuanced point, which you can disagree with for sure,
#
but it can be made. So I'll comment a question for you guys, both of you. But before that,
#
a quick observation, which is that, you know, we mentioned the conservatives on the right.
#
And I think the fundamental mistake they make when they take this essential masculinity and
#
actually endorse it and amplify it, the fundamental mistake they make is what is called the naturalistic
#
fallacy, right? Which is basically to mistake, to derive an ought from an is. Something is this way,
#
therefore it ought to be this way. So if you listen to even someone, the fundamental problem
#
with Jordan Peterson in my mind is he does exactly this. That he says that this is how society was
#
ordered and this is intrinsic to us. So this is how it should be, that men should be like this
#
and women should be like this and et cetera, et cetera. And to me, I cavil at that. I think
#
that it's a huge fallacy to jump to that ought from that is. That no way, man, just because
#
something is a particular way, doesn't mean that you make it normative. And I'm fascinated now
#
by something that, you know, you said earlier, Sanjana, about your process of arriving at your
#
personal morality, you know, the phrase that you used. And I'd like to ask both of you,
#
because it's been a struggle for me also to come at it and to define it. And I've kind of managed
#
to do it in some kind of way after all these years, but there are always, you know,
#
it's always a work in progress. So I want to ask you guys about how you arrived at,
#
you know, your personal morality per se. You should take this first.
#
So I'll try to find a brief way to tell it, because that's a constant, you think. So I think
#
first is like clearly being recognizing myself as an atheist that like, like a lot of these ideas
#
about even like, like an atheism is very different than spirituality. People confuse the two,
#
right? Like it's just, there's no order, there's nothing. So when you recognize that,
#
that happened very firmly. Then second, from there to recognizing that actually no meaning to
#
anything and making peace with it. It's so hard to do that. But once you reach these two stages and
#
like now I call myself an existentialist atheist, you know, there's a combined term. And then you
#
like those, like the sketch board is open for you, like kuch bhi banalo yahaan se, right? And then
#
waha se I landed on like few principles. One is classic principle liberalism, right? Do what you
#
want, but my freedom should not affect other people's agency. Lot of my moral philosophy just
#
flows from this principle. And I think so much of what in general we think of a good society,
#
you can just apply with the idea of respecting other people's existence and their freedom.
#
And the problem is because this is not really binary. There are like gradations to it because
#
by being yourself, it's not always possible that you'll not hurt other people or you'll,
#
you can't have a, if you are a part of a community, unless you're totally isolated,
#
your actions in some ways will affect other people agency, especially when you start having
#
more power. When you're in a position of leadership, even you can no longer, like in my 20s,
#
you are like really trying to fight out what the social norms are, trying to uncover them,
#
trying to get out of them. But again, you know, as you grow up, then you start realizing now
#
you're in a position when you set norms, like what becomes normal you have in your small
#
environments, you have it. That is when agency starts coming in. So how I behave at that point,
#
what I do when I have power, I think that's a process I'm currently going through, but the
#
cornerstone remains just freedom. And I think that makes life very easy for me. Does that?
#
That's kind of identical to me. I would have used some words,
#
some other words instead of some words, but it's identical basically.
#
Yeah. And of course it's not like clear cut key. Now that you have this framework,
#
so everything becomes easy. But I know like a lot of ethical problems that I deal with.
#
I can really work my way with this first principles that that's where I am right now.
#
Hmm. And how did you like come to these like you've?
#
It's years of journaling, like, like really trying to like one of the things I tell myself
#
is that the hardest thing for me is to fall in front of my own eyes. You know,
#
like you can keep talking about, I will do something. What will the world think of this?
#
But when it comes to you have your own, like I have my own standards of,
#
you know, let's say what's a good person, you know, what, what is the right way to be,
#
you know, all of those things about in different contexts. But then you try to be that person and
#
you fail that, you know, you can't live up to your own image of the kind of person you want to be.
#
So what do you do then? And that's a very good test of values. Like, do you really believe in
#
those values or were these just, you know, ideas that you had, you like thought they're like,
#
you know, like imagination, maybe this is who I should be, but I don't really believe in them.
#
So I think it took a lot of my twenties working through this conflict about,
#
you know, like who I am and who I want to be and going on that journey that really told me,
#
yeah, man, these values really matter to me and I'm going to walk towards it. And so
#
putting myself in positions, not intentionally, but situations coming up, dealing with them
#
rather than, you know, running away from them. There's a phase when you want to run away from
#
them, but upfront being in that uncomfortable position, figuring out, is that the way that
#
everyone says, you know, like you can't do it, but also then saying, no, but my values are telling
#
me that maybe I should behave this way. So then what do you do? So I think it's working
#
in this conflict and I journal a lot. I think that is what, like I summed up in this way,
#
but it came through a lot of this dealing with conflict. And now I actually feel relatively
#
more comfortable, not like this is never solved, like you can, ethical dilemmas will already be,
#
always be there, but there's also like great comfort in, you know, actually saying that, yes,
#
I mean, there will be situations where I can't be perfectly moral, but that's okay in the sense
#
that as long as like, I'm not completely infringing on someone else's freedom and I try to be the
#
best I can and not in a passive way, like not in the giving yourself excuse to do whatever,
#
but there is some nuance there. Let me dig in some deeper and sort of, you know, like in a sense,
#
mine is pretty much the same as I think I might've mentioned at some point, I don't know if we spoke
#
about it in our last conversation, but you know, freedom is such a misused word and can mean so
#
many things. Absolutely. That although that is the center of everything I believe in, you know,
#
the word I use to make it more explicable is consent. Like, you know, there are two important
#
questions that I have tried to grapple with and one of those is how should we relate, how should I
#
relate to the rest of the world, number one, and number two, how should the state relate to society?
#
And these seem wildly different questions. And I have, I eventually arrived at the same answer
#
for myself, which is concerned consent is everything. And you can look at it as a proxy
#
for freedom. And at some point, I thought I'll write an ideas book on it. One of the many books
#
I haven't read yet, but, and you know, it's basically an individual freedom, respecting the
#
other person's agency and et cetera, et cetera, and everything kind of falls neatly into that.
#
But there are a lot of questions that this doesn't answer or doesn't come close to answering,
#
right? And which are the, which come from the nature of reality. For example, let us say that
#
you are running a company, right? And the company demands your attention. It is doing important
#
things. You want to satisfy your customers. You know, all the profit you make is by making other
#
people better off, which is how things work in a free market. Double thank you moments. And you
#
want to give a certain amount of time to that. But equally your parents are aging and you feel
#
there is a duty. I need to look after them. Equally, you might have a significant other at
#
home and you feel that, Oh my God, I've been too self-absorbed and I've got to be intentional
#
about this relationship and nurture it. And all of those are important things to do. You only have
#
so much time and mental bandwidth and you are unable to do that. So that is one kind of dilemma
#
where I feel that no matter what you do, someone else could look at you and say that, Hey, you're
#
being a bad person. You know? So how does one deal with sort of edge cases like that? You know,
#
decision I made a while back is that anyone who is, I'm going to get toxic people out of my life
#
and anyone who brings negativity into my life, I'm just going to cut them off. And with one of those
#
people, I did it in a very harsh roadway. I mean, I was an asshole to them basically, but I just
#
wanted to kind of finish it. Now, is that right? Part of me just scabbles at that and says, no,
#
of course that isn't right. Like what the fuck are you doing? But on the other hand, et cetera,
#
et cetera. So there are places where this really neat framework, in a sense, a quote unquote
#
masculine framework, because, you know, everything is clearly defined. It pretends like it has
#
answers to everything. But you know, some things are really muddy and you don't know.
#
Absolutely. And also like, just to add the caveat, it's not that this is a finished journey, right?
#
It's a continuously evolving, figuring out things on a day to day basis. But I think one,
#
you know, like Sartre talked about this idea of bad faith. Are you familiar with this concept?
#
I know the term, but not in the way he used it.
#
In principle, like he talks about that we often underestimate the freedom that we have. Again,
#
this is contradictory to everything we talked about, free will, just a while ago. But he's saying
#
that there is a certain context and he also acknowledges privileges and in whatever context
#
you are. So assuming that the context is defining where you are, you know, what experiences shape
#
you. But within that, you do have agency. And he says that we start denying ourselves the delusion
#
that actually I don't have any control, things happen to me. That is what he calls bad faith.
#
That if you ignore that and actually start recognizing that, yes, you do have freedom,
#
the moment you get there, you also realize how burdensome it is because the moment you make one
#
choice, you are actually ignoring, like choosing something means saying no to many other things.
#
So if I say at this point, I am choosing to live by myself in a city like Bombay,
#
while my parents are in Delhi. And as much as I would want to be, you know, say a good son,
#
being with them as the age old, but I have consciously chosen to live this life. Now,
#
I call it in my head, it's a price of admission that I have, like, I intentionally chose it.
#
No one forced me into this. I today have the choice to go back to Delhi, actually build a
#
good life. It's not that being in Bombay means something like I don't have a notion of objectively
#
better life. It's just that this is what I've chosen. Intentionality in these situations has
#
really helped me because it tells me what I have chosen and what I've given up. And as long as I'm
#
able to make peace with that, yeah, I mean, I chose this, not like things could have been,
#
there's so many other things that I could have checkmarked to be a good whatever, like good
#
brother, good son, good friend, all of it. But so be it. I think that is how I derive, like I sleep
#
well at night by having a map and then saying this is what I choose. Like a practical example
#
of this is until like a few months ago, like I wanted to be this person that like I care a lot
#
about my friends and I want to be with them on their important days and moments. Like a friend
#
of mine was performing a few months ago in Delhi, he has an art performance. So I didn't want to be
#
like his performance is going on, so I will watch it for an hour and come back. It was so important
#
for him. It was a small thing, a very community based event, but I spent like eight hours with
#
him because I wanted to be when he's being dressed up, you know, backstage moments, you know,
#
there's a joy to see someone like it's an important moment to be with them. And I could spend like,
#
I could say I'm not going to work today, like post lunch till late night, then we'll go have dinner.
#
It is for this friend. And I thought that is who I want to be. But then I made different career
#
choices. Like now I have so much work and I've prioritized work a bit more that today all I can
#
do is, you know, occasionally make sure that I'm in touch, I can make phone calls, you know, but
#
not be as involved as I would have liked to be. So does that make me a bad friend? Or you know
#
what I mean? But I realized, okay, there are phases, there are choices that you're making,
#
but depending on what values to me at that point, am I okay with it? So, you know, when I started
#
by saying that falling in front of your own eyes, that's what I meant that there are situations
#
where I in different aspects of who I am and who I want to be, like you feel yourself a failure in
#
different contexts, like, especially I think this aging parents thing is something so many of my
#
friends at this age are going through about conflict between our ambition and responsibility.
#
I make peace with intentionality. And at least so far at this point in my life, it's working. I
#
don't know how it will evolve. Yeah, lots of things that you said that I feel, so falling
#
in front of your own eyes, I feel like those are really those teachable moments of reckoning,
#
where then you have to come up with a script to explain why you're okay. Not a justifying thing,
#
but like this is how complex reality is. And I have to navigate this set of things I don't really
#
like and update yourself with that. My journey to personal morality, I think it just, it starts
#
with like the sense of right and wrong, right? Like you see something happening that you think
#
you shouldn't be happening. And so you I think instinctually, we are born with like some aversion
#
and awareness of what is right and what's wrong. And then giving words to it has like, you know,
#
journaling, questioning everything lifelong journey that I think everybody should be on or everybody
#
doesn't engage in. But it started with if so called God is dictating these models of like,
#
you know, don't chappals and all of that, those seem very dogmatic and superficial from the start.
#
And then I was always contrasting it with the behavior of the people who espouse those things.
#
And those didn't seem like very model behavior. So I think it started with the idea that if you
#
behave well, and well means what we can come to that if you behave well, you're a model person,
#
your behavior dictates your morality. And then this this behaving well thing, because if someone's done
#
harm to you, are you justified in hurting them back? Initially, I would think I was very righteous
#
about my anger, because especially as a woman, you're not it's not given any space. And I still
#
think that anger gets a bad rep amongst most emotions, because it's actually a sign of what
#
you stand for, and what matters to you and what you're willing to fight for. So yeah, there's a way
#
to channel it maybe, but I used to feel like if someone's hurt you, and you're angry, you're
#
justified. But then I think that anger can also like it used to eat me up. And it was in trying
#
to reconcile with all of these very difficult experiences and questions about how when the
#
people who are supposed to be closest to you and take care of you are the ones who've hurt you the
#
most, how do you even deal with that, that I went on Vipassana. And since then, I think my morals,
#
the personal morality that I have come to accept is basically even, you know, the five Buddhist
#
precepts that they tell you, they are akin to the universal human rights. Like if you read the
#
wiki page on the five precepts, they'll say that this is about as close as possible as you can get
#
to universal human rights. And again, it came from like also, if you actually are a religious
#
person, if religion is that framework of morality, personal morality for you, and you look at all
#
religions in some, each of those religions actually advocates violence towards non-believers,
#
almost all of them do. Or like, so Christianity is like salvation is only for believers in Christ,
#
Islam is more explicit about it, Hinduism, within Hinduism, you have like violent orders.
#
So if you actually take all religions at face value, you realize you're not going to have a
#
very moral life on the face of it. It's only moral and comfortable for those who believe. So
#
Buddhism also seems to like mathematically be non-violent, not by nature of your identity,
#
but by nature of your behavior. So what are the five precepts? It says that do not harm any living,
#
any being. So that includes yourself, don't harm yourself or others. Do not lie, do not steal,
#
do not do sexual misconduct and try not to consume intoxicants because if you do, it'll
#
prevent you from acting on them. And that seems to me like very fair. It's a great script and
#
applicable in almost all situations. So I feel like those are like more. And so it also has helped me
#
deal with like these really thorny questions of if I'm a moral actor and I'm a writer criticizing
#
the establishment, then how can I benefit from the establishment? And then sort of realize that
#
that's a manmade contradiction. Like if every writer has had another job, if they've also paid
#
the bills or they've chosen to be poor, those are all choices you navigate. So apart from very, very
#
gross realities of survival, almost everything is like a manmade contradiction and this thing. So
#
stick to the five basic things. Are you killing someone? No, it's probably an okay job. Are you
#
selling arms? Are you selling alcohol, intoxicants? Slightly gray area, but almost
#
everything else, like being a tech pro is not actually fascism. Although I think some of our
#
writerly circles will be like tech pros are the new fascists and they're a genocide. But like it's
#
not literal. It's a critique. And I think having that critique at arm's length instead of identifying
#
with the critique as I made in the groups that we're part of, it helps. It's given me some
#
breathing space. The other thing I wanted to say was also like the Godel's theorem of incompleteness
#
has been a really useful way to navigate the insufficiency of any framework or any personal
#
morality to actually answer questions about this thing, because there'll always be new situations
#
and new encounters like Samarth has mentioned. There have been times that I've been like, okay,
#
I'm going to live by these five principles. And like I mentioned, I've been a perpetrator of violence
#
in dealing with the violence that has come to me. So what does that leave me with? Am I a moral
#
person? Am I a bad person? And there was this psychologist called Albert Ellis, who was the
#
father of REBT or rational emotional behavioral therapy, which is what became CBT later on. But
#
he says that human beings are neither good nor bad. Their actions can be called good or bad,
#
depending on whether they cause harm or whether they're true to your values and all of that. So
#
you can define actions as good or bad, but you as a being are so complex over the sum of time and
#
life you lead that you cannot mathematically, even if you were to make a polynomial equation
#
out of all your actions and their morality, moral weight, and the importance of significance,
#
you would not have an answer to this question of good or bad. So I think personal morality is
#
also realizing that there's ambiguity layered into sort of everything. What is it to be a bad
#
friend? What is it to be a bad son? What is it to be a bad writer? What is it to be a bad professional?
#
These are ambiguities you have to navigate. And there's like objectively very few things
#
that are objectively good and objectively bad. And I think that killing is one of those.
#
Can I ask both of you a question? Like after all of this discussion,
#
and this is how generally my diary entries operate. Sometimes feel that at its core,
#
if you are just a kind person, you know, a lot of things get solved. And is kindness really hard?
#
It is hard when you have to extend it to someone who hasn't been kind to you,
#
because your instinct is to hurt back and seek revenge, but it takes, it's hard in some cases.
#
But in general, like, like as if you're generally talking about like a guiding principle,
#
what if it's just that?
#
Another just one line summary of I think personal morality, and this does come from a religion,
#
actually, which is like, do unto others as you would unto yourself. If you told someone
#
only this about morality, or this was the only thing that you needed to live by, it would work.
#
Because never do like if you don't want to be stolen from, you don't want to be treated badly.
#
Unless you're a masochist, and then you'll be whipping everybody.
#
In which case it's okay, because you enjoy it.
#
No, I mean, to answer your question, kindness, yeah. But I feel like,
#
yeah, that's fundamentally that is correct. It is a quality we should all aspire to.
#
But I wonder if that's a little glib and whether it applies to every sort of
#
situation that you may be in for complexity. Yeah, it's really complex. Like sometimes if,
#
like, so I was chatting a couple of days back with someone I just met, and she was
#
trained as a pianist. And she spent some, she's 21 now. And she trained as a pianist for like,
#
for most of her life. And then she gave it up. And I said, why did you give it up and all of that?
#
And she said, there's too much baggage, because my teacher, you know, you've seen the film whiplash,
#
she used to be in the film whiplash. And he used to, you know, beat me when I wouldn't do it well,
#
and etc, etc. And I said, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. That's so toxic. And she said, no, no, no, no,
#
no, that is so necessary. And then sometimes it is so necessary. And the other people at the table
#
said the same thing. Sometimes it is so necessary. And I just disagreed vehemently. And I still do
#
beating is never on period. But then the question of kindness is that, should you always be kind
#
when someone is making mistakes? Sometimes being too kind can be a disservice to them.
#
You know, so I think it can get complicated. I think there's a difference between being nice
#
and being kind. Not the same thing. Niceness is... Ah, so you're saying the kindness would manifest
#
in doing whatever it takes to make that person better. See, if I see, let's say, a friend of mine,
#
who is, okay, I'm making a hypothetical solution. Let's say, based on their behavior, based on their
#
patterns, I'm making like really terrible choices about... Kind does not mean being,
#
being... That is being nice because you don't have the courage to offend someone. They can
#
feel it offensive. Or you want to be people pleasers. Nice people, people please. Kindness
#
does not mean that you can't make someone else uncomfortable. There's a very important nuance.
#
Like I can come and tell you, look, you know, what you're doing is actually very problematic.
#
You need to change course. You can say harsh things about it or, you know, like things may go off
#
and then you just understand where they're coming from. And it's not kindness. Actually, kindness
#
takes more ownership or not ownership. It actually shows more care. Niceness is about, actually,
#
I don't care. I can move on. I agree with you. But let me bring one element into it. I think
#
there's a problem with language that I read the survey recently where a lot of women who were
#
beaten by their husbands actually argued that it was justified that he was doing it for my own good.
#
And a lot of wife beaters can then say, or a lot of child beaters, you shouldn't even beat your kids.
#
A lot of kid beaters could say I'm doing it for his own good so he studies more or whatever.
#
As far as I'm concerned, I don't give a shit what the intention is. It's just always wrong.
#
And I feel that, and I don't know how, what way there is passes because language can always be
#
corrupted in weird ways and you can rationalize anything. But I just feel that that's perhaps a
#
danger. I'm thinking aloud. I realize I'm also making a fundamental mistake. I was going to say
#
something that you later immediately said you would not keep in mind. But I think a lot of
#
the goodness or badness of an action is also about the intent behind it, which today I think
#
commentary on morality has gone so far as to penalize people for the outcome of their actions,
#
even if it's several steps removed from the action that they originally conceived it.
#
My argument with that is that no one knows the intent, not even the person themselves.
#
Unless you're conscious about it, like I'm doing this with the intent of helping myself or others.
#
Yeah, but I think it's the same sort of mistake Nehru and his colleagues made in the mid-20th
#
century when they built a really strong, powerful state because they assumed people like themselves
#
would always be in charge of that state and there would be people like us. But the point is if you
#
accept that to be a general principle that the intent matters, a lot of the time you can't gauge
#
someone's intent and a lot of the time they don't know it themselves and we'll rationalize the
#
worst behavior to ourselves by saying, but the intention is good. And therefore I have a problem
#
with that. I agree that intent can often be a nuance when you're judging someone's action.
#
So it can be a nuance there. But I don't think you should judge on intent alone because then anyone
#
can make any kind of rationalization for any kind of action. But to the point about thinking
#
that just because I have the right intentions, let me do it and then finding out that the actions are
#
less than ideal. I think that wanting to then penalize someone for the right or wrong action
#
or basically incentivize that, it's beyond anyone's control. I think at that point,
#
we're trying to when we're devising a moral scheme that accounts for that action, you're
#
saying that we as human beings have some control over reality and by saying this is right and this
#
is wrong, eventually the right action will be produced of people. Just to be clear,
#
the law already has a space for intent. The difference between manslaughter and murder is
#
intent. The murderer intends to murder the manslaughter. It was something that they did
#
wrong and someone ended up dying. And therefore a punishment for manslaughter is less than for
#
murder, but there is a punishment. So that's my point, that you take intent into account as a
#
nuance, but it cannot be fully exculpatory in itself because then you can say anything.
#
Like our dear leader did during demonetization, that my intentions are good. I'm actually even
#
inclined to believe that his intentions are good, but it was a larger assault on property rights
#
in human history as I keep saying. You cannot look at the intention and say that no, it was
#
devastating. It was a crime on humanity, as were so many of our economic policies.
#
And also like on intent, it's also based on patterns of behaviour. There are some things
#
like if you do something with good intent, bad outcomes happen and you say, okay, intent was
#
right. But if that's a pattern that every time it's like intent, intent, intent and there is no change,
#
then you can see that in people around you that for whom it's a one-off that intent was right,
#
outcome was off, but for whom intent is always the justification and there is no change.
#
See, I think whether dichotomy comes into play is a classic thing that, you know,
#
where I think both Lord Krishna and Spike Lee would have made great poker players,
#
where they said that do the right thing, don't think about, don't focus on the fruits of your
#
action, right? And that's something I learned as a poker player also, that your skill manifests
#
over the long run, in the short run is mostly luck and that's true of life also to another extent.
#
So just focus on what you can control and get the process right. So this seems to play to that.
#
However, if you behave in ways that one would consider bad according to whatever your moral
#
standpoint is, whether it is consent or freedom or whatever, then wrong is wrong, right? Then I
#
don't think you need to, you can't excuse it in terms of intent. Like for me, like one fundamental
#
precept, like you mentioned the fundamental precept about treat everyone like you would
#
want to be treated, like I take Kant's category of imperative seriously, that never treat another
#
person as a means to an end, but as an end in themselves, you know, and I think-
#
But what about impossible situations? Like I feel like when people are judging world leaders,
#
celebrities and holding them to standards of behavior that, you know, I think they should
#
have done this or I think they should have a, they're sometimes in situations where there is
#
no right answer, where anything they, whatever they do, there's going to be a bad outcome because
#
they're, you're in a situation where there's too much conflict, whatever you do is, and in that
#
case, then the question of like ambiguity comes into reality and it's too ambiguous to always have
#
the morally optimal choice and to actually then exercise it. So what then?
#
I totally agree. I mean, your frame won't work in every situation, right? Like I think for most
#
questions in the world, the correct answer, there's only one correct answer and the correct answer is
#
it depends because the world is just so complicated. You know, like one of the trends that I hate
#
among you young people is that of always being judgmental and I think social media
#
encourages that. And I think that every time you're judging something,
#
what you are really doing, it's an act of ego because you're saying I'm more virtuous
#
slash knowledgeable than you are. Every act of judgment is an act of ego, according to me,
#
right? So especially in this deeply complex world where you simply cannot judge most things,
#
you can judge some things, you can say Hitler was evil, right? But apart from that,
#
you know, the world is so complicated that I totally agree with you. I mean, what's...
#
So then how do you think something that even like I still find it a little hard to reckon with is
#
this is the really, really broken level of discourse. Even though you're saying this,
#
and we all agree that it's complex, that any act of judgment and shaming especially is a sign of
#
ego more than a good opinion. Still, there are so many posts that will say that if you think this,
#
then don't even like you are so wrong. And I'm surprised that the woke movement had not like
#
the woke movement, whatever name you want to give like that period of social justice lasted so long
#
where shame seemed to work on so many people that if this then this and therefore I think this and
#
therefore I will talk about this. I think there's a profound lack of self-reflection because about
#
30 seconds of self-reflection would teach all those people that it was purely an act of ego.
#
Like I often say that those who project the most virtue possess the least.
#
But a lot of these I'm sure are people that, you know, are close, you're close to or in the
#
circles that we belong to. So yeah, I mean, I try to kind of stay away from these kind of people,
#
but I try to stay away from most kinds of people. I think there is one, like not to, it's not a
#
point antithetical to anything what's said, but I think a very important component here is just
#
power, right? Like my like complexity of person X compared to complexity of a person whose decision
#
and action behavior will affect a hundred people, a thousand people, one million people. Like I'm
#
not sure if the same principles apply. Like they, if you are in a position of power,
#
there will be a slightly different, you will be held accountable to a slightly higher,
#
you know, degree of scrutiny than say someone else. Now you can talk about all sorts of that,
#
okay, you know, all humans fundamentally are so and so, but if you have, if you have power, then,
#
you know, you're impacting the world in different ways, you're shaping it. But that comes with
#
saying that you, you're actually signing up for owning the criticism. So of course,
#
any decision you take it, be you are a CEO or like a world leader or a leader in your own small
#
community, if you're enjoying the fruits of power, then you, of course, like people will
#
criticize you and questions will be questioned. And you, like, you see the, like, I think that
#
I absolutely agree in the sense that, you know, like the decision I came on Twitter a long time
#
back is I'll just broadcast my links. I won't have conversations and I won't shit on people,
#
but the exceptions I make for shitting on people is politicians because they are affecting the
#
lives of many people. So I want to shit on their leader or the head leader of opposition who is
#
equally inept or I want to shit on Trump and Kamala Harris, both of whom are just horrendous.
#
I feel free to do so, though I don't think I've done much of that recently also,
#
but they are fair game. But what I will simply never do is pick a random Twitter who said
#
something and quote me that and shit on that person. I just think that's so deeply toxic.
#
Now in the past, I have also done that because we are all young and we all get carried away.
#
And to come to your, like, I was thinking aloud after you just asked Sanjana about what do we,
#
if we have friends who do behave like that, what do we do? And at one level, the answer is that
#
people grow out of it and, you know, you can only hope they do that. That's one level.
#
But the other level where my answer goes in the opposite direction is back in the past,
#
when I was young, my mistakes did not happen on the internet. I used to behave all kinds of weird
#
things and I must have said all kinds of stupid things when I was 20, but they're not on the
#
internet and no one's taking screenshots. Now what happens is that you take some position when
#
you're 21 and 50 people in a particular ideological tribe retweet you and say, wow,
#
that's great, you know, and then you feel that sense of belonging and you double down on what
#
would otherwise have been a temporary self. And then you become that person. And I think that
#
that might ossify certain toxic ways of thinking. And then it's very hard to break out of that.
#
But I think where I might just take that thought is that I think I like the idea of
#
being friends with bad people. Even people that you know have done questionable, horrible things.
#
I think it makes sense to judge people based on their treatment of you. So what that means is,
#
I would be, say, friends with just a very extreme example, a murderer,
#
because he's murdered someone, whatever the reason is. But this is the untenable position
#
that a lot of criminal defense attorneys navigate every day. Even the most indefensible humans are
#
worth something. They're worth redemption, they're worth attention, they're worth consideration,
#
they're worth their lives, that they should be allowed to live, they should be allowed to
#
be treated with respect. And I think that just honors the fact that we're all capable of
#
extreme behaviors and we've all got that line of, what is that popular saying, we've all got the
#
line of good and bad, good and evil drawn through us. How does that align with your Buddhist
#
philosophy? That's because the Buddhist philosophy is all about unconditional kindness and compassion.
#
But what, like the five principles? I'm just curious, because how does that,
#
first one was, do not harm. Okay, he's harmed someone. There must have been some horrible,
#
for example, I think this recent rape case may be a good example to see where we lie on this. But
#
rape case from Kolkata, the 31 year old doctor. I mean, when someone is committing a crime,
#
there's an enormous amount of evil and ill will coursing through them that I think that
#
you should feel sorry for them that they're having to go through that and that they're being compelled
#
to, it just ties back into that other layer of reality, right? Where the forces of whatever's
#
causing them to act. So the first thing I want to do is, you know, you invoked that famous quote by
#
Solzhenishin, I want to read the full thing out because these are beautiful words of wisdom.
#
It's Alexander Solzhenishin in the Gulag archipelago, where he says, it was in rotting
#
prison straw that I felt the first stirrings of good in myself. Gradually, it became clear to me
#
that the line separating good from evil runs not between states, not between classes and not between
#
parties. It runs through the heart of each and every one of us and through all human hearts.
#
This line is not stationary. It shifts and moves with the passage of the years, even in hearts
#
enveloped in evil, it maintains a small bridgehead of good.
#
This is really true. I think it's not at all contradictory to put the Vipassanas taught in
#
Tihar prisons because they believe that even the worst criminals are deserving of compassion and
#
the way to get them to change behavior is not punishment, is not punitive, is not about shame
#
and, you know, being like, oh, what you did was so horrible and all of those, we will teach you
#
morality. It's about giving them the tools to come out of it themselves by teaching them
#
what they say that as you progress on the path, it becomes impossible for you to feel ill will
#
towards anyone, even people who've hurt you. And I think that's like super advanced or whatever.
#
I'm not even, but I think it's a nice position to aspire to that even the worst people deserve
#
compassion, worst acts deserve compassion. Does part of this come from my need to
#
forgive what people have done to me? No, does part of this come from the need
#
to show compassion towards yourself? As I think many of us fail in doing, like you mentioned
#
kindness earlier, and I think the one person we are not kind towards often is ourselves.
#
And I struggle with this. Truly, like what you said that falling in front of your own eyes,
#
like if I have to change and be better, I have to first forgive, I have to first accept reality.
#
Like, so the first thing is that bitter spill to swallow is that I'm not the shit. I'm not
#
the nicest person. I can be horrible. I've been an asshole to people.
#
But we've established you are the shit. You yourself said that. Not the asshole,
#
but you are the best. I got like, I love that Shah Rukh Khan song. I'm the best.
#
He's the worst actor in the history of cinema, so it's ironic he should do those things.
#
Why are you looking at me like that? I don't know about his acting,
#
but he's such a charismatic personality. He's charismatic. I don't dispute that.
#
No, and also now I say tongue-in-cheek, but it's kind of a category error because I've grown up
#
all my life engrossed in world cinema and so on and so forth. So I'm judging him from that lens,
#
while all his life he's played nothing but himself and he's played his persona.
#
But, you know, Indian cinema is a different category. It's a different thing.
#
He's doing the right thing. He's like, I think somewhere he said something that you should
#
empathize with, where he said that I am basically a worker in service of my own brand.
#
Actually, he said it nicely. I mean, you just made it very corporate.
#
I'm sorry. But he's like, again, I'm
#
I'm a slave to my brand. I'm a slave to the idea of Shah Rukh Khan,
#
or something like that. That sounds like the definition of narcissism.
#
No, but you see, he said that there is an image, I'm understanding which I'm recalling from
#
memories, that there is an image of Shah Rukh Khan that has been constructed. So he has that self
#
awareness that this is the Shah Rukh Khan that the world likes. And now I'm playing that character.
#
It's not who I really am. It sounds like healthy narcissism.
#
I mean, it is a spectrum we all have.
#
Healthy narcissism is a nice term. It's a concept.
#
I have a very complicated relationship with this man, because I've had this feeling to write this
#
essay, which I'll write maybe at some point, how Shah Rukh Khan scammed a generation about his
#
Of women. Yeah, all the ideas that like, you know,
#
it's a very popular trope among at least 90s kids that Bollywood spoiled our relationship,
#
like ideas about love, etc. So I'm going to ask a provocative question.
#
I did an episode with Shreyaana.
#
Yeah, I was going to say.
#
So she made the excellent observation. You know, I keep fighting with Shreyaana and
#
Parvita Bhura over this, because they think I'm nuts. And I think they're nuts on this
#
particular margin. Otherwise, we all like each other. And so she once said that, you know,
#
and it's a great line. And I was really taken by it then, where she said that what in what in
#
every Indian man wants to be Salman Khan, and every Indian woman wants a husband like Shah Rukh Khan.
#
It's a great line. But then I got to thinking that can there be an addenda to that? And I'll
#
ask for your opinions on it. Yeah, which is that every Indian man wants to be like Salman Khan.
#
Every Indian woman wants a husband like Shah Rukh Khan, but she wants Salman Khan in bed.
#
I think you've come to what I think is the female version of the Madonna whore complex
#
that men have. So basically, it comes in different cultures in different ways. But the idea is that
#
you can't have sex with the woman you respect. And the female version of it is she's aroused by
#
the bad boy. But she knows she should go for the good boy. Exactly. Good boy, bad boy. I have I
#
was looking for is there a more formal term for it than the good boy, bad boy. And the irony is
#
that they're both probably they've both probably got biological roots. But as we have agreed,
#
the biological should not be normative. That is we should acknowledge and see it with reality.
#
I think the answer is that be whatever Shah Rukh Khan or Salman Khan just don't be Ranbir Kapoor.
#
Explain. Sanjana, do you have thoughts on Ranbir Kapoor? I think he has been maligned
#
beyond repair. Oh, really? Please. I don't have a defense of him. But I just feel like at some
#
points in the interview with Nikhil Kamath that he did recently, where he says things that I haven't
#
seen so I don't know. He says things that I don't think are on the face of it problematic. But then
#
we as the culture have sort of connected it back to the things that he said before that we know
#
that he has said before, like Alia, take off your lipstick and all of that. In this interview,
#
he said that Alia has changed more than me, you know, and she's whenever there's been an issue
#
and like behavior change, she's done more than I have, which I mean, I would think that I was
#
going to, you know, I thought people would praise him for saying that because here's a man finally
#
acknowledging the woman's labor, but she should not be changing more. So if he had said the
#
opposite that I've done so much for her, then everybody would call him out for being, oh,
#
you're just the typical man thinking you've done everything to make this weather. I mean,
#
so I think at some point celebrities can't get it right if you have like you you're,
#
you know, beyond redemption. Yeah, I'm feeling myself that I'm the most judgmental person in
#
the room. But I like to judge Ranbir Kapoor based on my own biases. I think just again,
#
it's not like the most informed opinion. These are the conversation I have when I'm gossiping
#
with friends. But I think there's a whole layer of the kind of films and characters he has played.
#
And I'm not talking about animal, if you just go in the past, like, you know, very,
#
like things that you just find problematic in men is what characters he has. I'm just
#
want you to expand on this. I'm just saying I have not watched animal because I did not want
#
to put myself through. Okay, I know misogyny is pervasive, but I don't want to see it glorified
#
on screen. I don't want to participate in the culture. But can you please tell me that's what
#
I'm saying? I'm not talking about animal. I'm talking about his older films. It's just that
#
there is deciding pop culture in that way. Like the like, that's why like when we talked about
#
Shah Rukh and Salman, you're talking about 90s, early 2000s, when they dominated the image of
#
like, in mass popular culture, like, the hero, and then your heroes change, like who are the
#
big stars, like, then, like, what is the list that comes to the big stars, at least the aspiring big
#
stars, right? You'll have the list of Ranbir Kapoor and Veer Singh. Like, I don't think we have as
#
bigger star as like Shah Rukh Khan and others, like, like, fandom has changed conception. But
#
these are like the most men at the top of, yeah, right? Yeah. And so what the kind of characters
#
that they play, and that starts flowing down into what are the ideas about masculinity, like,
#
I'm just talking about, yeah, like male actors, the character, so to completely dissociate,
#
at least for me, the characters that you play, and you know, who you are, like, there's an, like,
#
you can say I'm just playing a character, and like, it's not me, I'm just doing my job. I
#
actually make a distinction there that, like, you're choosing to play a certain character when
#
you can play so many, so there's some ideas that your character is portraying is, like, that links
#
for me how I perceive an actor. And there, like, if you look at the film Tamasha, have you seen
#
Tamasha? Yeah, yeah, yeah, long ago. It's a very controversial film, like, and I think the reason
#
I brought up Ranbir Kapoor is because I think thinking about even just that film has been
#
my own evaluation about, like, my own ideas about, you know, how to be in certain ways.
#
So you have that phase when you first watch Tamasha, like, when it came out, I was like,
#
what a stupid movie. Then people around me said something like, you don't have taste,
#
that's why you didn't get Tamasha. So I'm like, okay, and four years later, I watched it again.
#
And I was like, wow, you know, this, what a film it is, you know, beyond its time, the kind of
#
things that it's talking about, about, you know, questioning society, breaking free from the rut,
#
Ranbir Kapoor finding, finally finding, you know, his place, like, rejecting norms and coming out of
#
it. And then you watch it again. And then you see another lens, which is, like, what was the,
#
like, what was Deepika Padukone doing in that film? And let this whole idea that a woman has to come
#
in your life to, you know, fix you. You are such a tortured soul. You've watched Tamasha many, many
#
times. Yes. But you know, like, after that, like this whole manic pixie dream girl kind of thing,
#
which I think, so I'm saying that is like one example of a character he has played in that after
#
that, you know, this Ranbir Kapoor totally lost for me. And then I think we should see those
#
patterns again. Definitely give a name to the male version of the manic pixie dream girl.
#
What should that be? By the way, the woman who named this, she wrote a piece later saying that
#
I'm so sorry. I coined this term because now people like I think like me are now misusing it.
#
I'm so old. I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about.
#
I think it's a wonderful concept. It's a great concept. So I'm going to take
#
my hand at attempting it. I don't know how, if I'm going to be biblically accurate about it,
#
but basically the manic pixie dream girl is like this ethereal sidekick to the hero. The hero is
#
the protagonist. She's in the movie. She's that, you know, she's got this combination of contradictions
#
and she's blissfully unaware of it. Also, she's like hot, pretty. She's like the perfect
#
intellectual companion to him. Not smarter than him, but she gets him. She, she, you know,
#
helps him become who he's truly meant to be. And she's quirky and cute. She's beautiful,
#
but her personality is not being hot. You know, she's all of these things and she's somehow also
#
like totally unaware of the effect she has, you know, she's just that, you know, quirky surface
#
level thing. And it's a great concept because I think a lot of women are expected like, like that's
#
what I mean by my purposeful, un-ladylike, uncooseness is that I must acknowledge all
#
of these things because otherwise I'm a manic pixie dream girl. I have attained conventional
#
standards of achievement and whatever I had, my eating disorder molded myself into size zero
#
approximation and all of that. I'm supposed to be unaware. I'm supposed to like go out party with
#
the boys, stay thin. And I'm supposed to be unaware of like the toll this is taking on me. And I'm
#
supposed to like float through life like a, you know, daisy Disney princess, like the cost of
#
what it means to be the woman molded into the ideal woman thing is, is not something that I'm
#
supposed to acknowledge. I'm just supposed to engage with it on the surface level. So I think
#
it's a great concept because it shows you like truly how that character has been written, right?
#
Like it's just a sidekick. It's just about like you let your awareness be to the level that suits
#
the plot. Everyone who's listening to this will one day watch the films that you have written,
#
Sanjana, and they will start judging your characters that see she wrote manic pixie dream
#
girl and this character comes from you. I hope that day comes. I've already sold some unfailed
#
screenplays. So it better come now. But I, at this point, like totally digressing, but I have to
#
say something about the nature of the podcast medium. It's like, you know, when I'm writing,
#
like I actually have to like, I sit, I write, I think then, you know, some garbled thoughts
#
will come on paper and then I'll read it the next day and like, edit, edit, edit, and you know,
#
slightly cleaner prose will come up and I'll have like a solid argument to make. Unlike just
#
what I just did, right? Like I said some, like I have so many thoughts on Ranbir Kapoor, I can't
#
even, I've not even got into it. But you know, like it's not coherent and it's not like, it
#
doesn't feel like a, I don't feel confident. I've actually made a case against Ranbir Kapoor,
#
which I want to right now, which feels like the limitation of the podcast medium. I know
#
it's a total digression, but you're a podcast and you're a writer. Do you, don't you feel this
#
difference? I mean, if you're aiming for an explainer, the three things, the five things
#
wrong with Ranbir Kapoor, then of course this is not meant for that. Yeah, yeah. But I think-
#
It's then very feminine, quote unquote. Which word is feminine? The podcast medium.
#
The fact that, yeah, it's not structured. It's not about a point. There's no goal orientation.
#
I will now constantly refer to the scene in The Unseen as she, the she-her. I will pronounce
#
it as the podcast. But in its own discursive way, it's enlightening and it's moving us forward.
#
It's just not linear, I think. Interesting. And I also view all the conversations I've had over a
#
period of time and I've thought about this and those of my listeners who want my meta thoughts
#
on podcasting episode 49 of Everything is Everything is called a deep dive into podcasting. So the art
#
of podcasting, so that has everything. But something that I've been thinking about more
#
and more and is really interesting is that you think you're having one conversation,
#
but actually all the conversations you've had are almost like different floating parts of the same
#
conversation, right? So we've spoken about men and women and desire and the authentic self and
#
intentionality and so on and so forth. And these are all in different ways streams running through
#
all my conversations. So someone who listens to the show over a period of time, you know, will
#
sort of have an over, you know, things start to take shape, things push you in different
#
directions. Certainly with me, I feel my thinking on a lot of stuff has changed with all the people
#
I speak to. So it's not one person, you know, when I stopped talking to you today, that's not the end.
#
You know, it's just going to continue with other people in other places with you at some other time
#
where you will be saying something different. You know, Sarthak will be telling us about how much he
#
likes Ranveer Kapoor. And you will be telling us about no, no, murderers are bad.
#
I think it's again, I think I'm looking for interesting things. And I think it's conflict
#
is interesting. And I feel like I would like to be a criminal defense attorney because it would
#
just put me in an impossible situation where I think you're at heart a storyteller. See,
#
there are two kinds of storytellers I've realized and I realized as well riffing during some intro
#
I did for one of my things and the thought came to me and I realized key higher and this is
#
something I should be conscious of. Now, what is storytelling? Storytelling is the world is
#
deeply complex. You are telling every story is making it simple. So you can make sense of it.
#
We make sense of a complex world by telling simple stories. Like imagine you're in prehistoric times
#
as a big orange ball in the sky, it comes and it goes every day. You've got to tell a story about
#
it. And that's the beginning of religion, right? So therefore, I think there can be two kinds of
#
storytellers one kind of storyteller who is simplistic, who is boiling everything down to
#
a trope and missing the complexity and another kind of storyteller who wants a complexity who
#
wants to dive into it and wade into it. And you know, you're clearly one of them, which is why I
#
am just so fucking confident your screenplays will be good, but I'm not so confident that they'll
#
ever be made because it's too complex. Possibly because I think that there is like at least
#
within the mainstream, there is a desire for stuff that is dumbed down and easily consumable
#
and whatever. And no doubt you're skilled enough to be able to do that with good work, but
#
it's about playing the game. Actually, there is a forgetting the name, but there's a 19th century
#
Russian writer totally skipping his name, but he was making 19th or 20th century, but he was making
#
a case like why his books are not that popular as a Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky. And his thesis was that
#
look, what these guys do is that they have a clear worldview and like they might write a thousand
#
page like, you know, crime and punishment, but there is an underlying philosophy about
#
the way the world is, which is coming out through literature. Like they will tackle with complexities,
#
but in the end, you know where the sympathies of the writer lies. He says, I don't like to do that.
#
I don't want to tell my readers about what is the right way to do things. I keep it very open.
#
So he said, in that time, 19th century, I think it's 19th century Russia, people were looking for
#
answers when they were consuming literature. They wanted writers to tell them how they should be.
#
And if you just leave that open, that, you know, figure out for yourself, I'm going to give you
#
both sides. Those kinds of stories didn't work. So that was his thesis. And there's a name to this
#
kind of literary classification, which again I'm forgetting, but I think that gave a very good
#
reference frame. Even if you look at like a lot of modern cinema, like have you seen the movie
#
Anotomy for Fall? I wrote a newsletter post on it. Yes, I think basically just about complexity that
#
you don't know who's right. You don't know who's wrong. You don't know what the fuck is going on.
#
And that's the real world. Everything is right and everything is wrong. Yeah, it both is happening.
#
So do you have the ability to deal with a story like that? Like what it does to you? Do you like
#
for me, when I see and there's so much good cinema that gets into the heart of these complex
#
situations, like again, just that scene, you know, the scene that the fight scene, which is
#
the iconic scene of the movie. If you read about that scene, there's a, you don't know the history
#
of the, why she wrote it. Have you seen Married Story? Yeah. Have you seen Married Story? So it's
#
Scarlett Johnson and who's that? Adam Driver. So she said, like in that Married Story, there's
#
another fight scene where the man is totally like, you know, like bursting out and it's like really
#
intense and like it will hit you. And then she said, when I was looking at that movie, I was
#
thinking, how would a woman respond to that situation? That was in her head. And then she
#
wrote this scene. So it's flowing from, you know, that scene. Again, if you look at Married Story,
#
like, you know, again, going back to Bergman, when he did scenes from a marriage, scenes from
#
a marriage has, because it tackles with this complexity head on, it has inspired a series
#
of films, including Woody Allen's Husband and Wives. There's another movie I'm forgetting and
#
Married Story and Anatomy of a Fall. So you see, there is history to these films where
#
over and over one artist is inspired by other to surface complexity. You know, and let me,
#
you see what I'm trying to say. I absolutely do. You were saying something. Yeah. Let me tell you
#
about a Russian short story I read when I was 10. When I was 10, I had this phase that I discovered
#
Dostoevsky, absolutely loved him. Then read everything by all the Russians except Alstroi,
#
who I never liked. Okay, that's a separate matter. But not for this reason. I wasn't
#
evolved enough at the age of 10 to come up with this kind of thing. But I remember one short story
#
so vividly. And I remember it just like shook me to my core. And it was by a guy called Leonid
#
Andreyev. And it's called The Abyss. And I think I remember I thought of it during a podcast two,
#
three years ago. And then I looked it up and I realized I was remembering it kind of slightly
#
wrong because 30 years had passed or 40 years had passed 40 years had passed. So anyway, so
#
that story is great. And I think Sanjana is just your kind of story in the sense that
#
it's just so complicated, which is basically this guy goes out walking on a snowy day through
#
some snowy forest with his girlfriend. And then a bunch of ruffians come and they beat him up and
#
he runs away and then they rape the girl. Right. And then after a while he manages to go back there
#
and the girl is now dead. And he has sex with the body. And that's the story. Wonderful premise.
#
And I don't think this is something Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky would have written. Right. This is
#
deep shit. And it stayed with me. I remember it just really hit me then. And then I read the story
#
again recently and I think it was slightly different from how I remembered. But I think
#
this is where it is that there's no easy way to even think about it. I think it's a very rich
#
premise. So you choose premises that will naturally, if you double click on it, take you
#
into very different strands. But just like, I want to say a few things based on some of the things
#
you said, which is that the first screenplay that I wrote, I had a friend who was working,
#
he'd done marketing for the Sky is Pink and he was basically involved at Roy Kapoor film. So
#
the first thing, which is based on a portion of my life where I was subject to moral policing at an
#
Indian educational institution. So it was based off of that one incident unfolding over time.
#
How does that affect these two people's lives? And he was like, this is very indie. There is
#
not enough plot wise happening every minute and a half. If you look at a film that gets
#
shown on screen, you have a base that goes with it. That's the one feedback I give you. If you
#
want to write something that these people will pick up. And so the next story that came to me,
#
I think it sort of married these complexities in a black mirror-ish kind of way, which is basically
#
inspired by my struggle to be myself online. Because who I am on Twitter, a totally different
#
side of me comes out. A totally different side of me comes out on Instagram and LinkedIn. I'm a
#
totally different person. I felt like I had schizophrenia or multiple personalities. In a
#
way, a lot of people, today online existence is fragmented and then you have your own life
#
at home that is different from all of these things. So how are you straddling these
#
multiple personalities? And so the film was actually about people contorting themselves
#
to become something marketable, which is what I was trying to do then. And everyone in the
#
script going about it their own way. There's this girl who wants to become a writer, but she's
#
not able to get into this thing. So she starts playing the guitar. There's a guy who's a guitarist,
#
but he's not happy with his level of success. So he becomes friends with the rapper and then
#
they start rapping together. It's about the fluid relationship that you're allowed to and able to
#
have with art and your career today, which I think some artists in a more traditional mode
#
might look at what people have to do today to sell a book, for example. You have to create reels.
#
You have to have a social media presence. And people have two responses to it generally. One
#
is that this is great. We live in a world where anyone can make a career out of art in a way that
#
was never possible before. And the others are like, this is gimmicky. This is cheap. This is
#
terrible because I may have a lot of sense to make in the format that I'm good at, but just to
#
get that heard, I now have to do a 10,000 things that drain my ability to produce that. And I think
#
both are valid. And I find myself sometimes oscillating between the two. I find myself
#
very drawn to, I think short form as a medium is great because like you said, if it's a complex
#
world and I'm named after an ad, so I'm very partial to how powerful they can be. You get
#
a point across in you touch people's hearts in 30 seconds. That's probably a bigger feat of
#
storytelling than a feature length movie. So I have appreciation for the various different,
#
I think reels as a culture, it's created a whole dimension of relationships and friendships where
#
I'm getting to know more about someone based on the kind of reels they like. And I thought of you,
#
I send this to you and something deep and weird unfolds from there. And we have this brief exchange
#
and I have friends that I'm in touch with in almost exclusively this way. So I think it's
#
fascinating. Why do I have this feeling that Amit cannot relate to this at all? Relate to what? To
#
this whole reel culture. And no, I relate it to all of this, dude. I want to prefer a TikTok
#
superstar. I remember that. TikTok courses. I did a course on TikTok and TikTok first released in
#
India because I just thought it is so beautiful. It's empowering so many people by allowing the
#
certain kind of self-expression, especially among marginalized communities and all that.
#
It was mind blowing. I love it. But what you do not know about me is that I have wanted to
#
be a TikTok superstar for a long time. I created a BTS video recently, which we put up on Twitter
#
during shooting Everything is Everything, where I play Geetanjali. Geetanjali of, you know,
#
Tagore has a novel called Geetanjali. So I pretended to be a girl called Geetanjali on whom Tagore has
#
written a book and she's upset about it. And then after that I recorded Robida's response to it.
#
In Bengali, which then the people I was with, they laughed like mad, but they said,
#
don't release it. It will get canceled. So I don't know because I really don't know.
#
There's nothing. Did you really offend Bengalis? It won't affect Vox, I think,
#
but it's very smutty and naughty. Was it a vertical video? I love that.
#
Was it a vertical video? They were both vertical videos, bro.
#
I know you keep saying on the podcast that you contain multitudes.
#
Since you're a marketing person, Sanjana, I want your opinion on this also, that what you correctly
#
said is that there is an impression that if you've created one product, you have to sell it like this.
#
And I find that a lot of it can become ticking boxes that doesn't really achieve anything.
#
Now, from the purest creator point of view, the advice I give people is don't think of anything
#
as marketing. If you've written a book and you want to do reels, do reels, but let your creativity
#
go fully into your reels as if that is a separate product by itself and ditto for your shorts and
#
ditto for everything that you do. Don't be cynical about anything. Everything will turn out to be
#
marketing for everything else you do by default. So what is your sense of that in terms of marketing?
#
I agree with this. I want to be able to hold this view and believe that it's not gimmicky if you're
#
pouring your heart into it. And it is possible. I have had similar urges. I don't know if it's
#
modeling myself as Geetanjali and having reactions recorded.
#
I'm the best Geetanjali, don't you think?
#
We need to see this video ASAP. But yeah, I've pretended to be Ardham Goswami. I think it's
#
hilarious to caricaturize certain characters. I love sketch comedy. I think it's really funny.
#
Have you tried Sanjana?
#
Yeah, I have tried Sanjana.
#
She's done a show in Bangalore, right?
#
Oh wow. Is it on YouTube?
#
I've done it a few times. It's on my Instagram.
#
We're gonna find it and link it.
#
Like I said, I've been on stage. I love different kinds of art and performance. I just don't know if
#
I want to make all of them a career. But you should try and explore as many avenues as
#
appeal to you and as seem strategically useful to your careerized art as well.
#
I think where I kind of get the other view is that there may be a lot of writers who
#
have great points to make who should not see that they have to do this to be heard.
#
And then how can you recognize and find those voices even if they're not making reels and if
#
they're not sort of they don't have like 60,000 followers or whatever it takes to sell a book.
#
But they've got to be perspectives that get overlooked in every generation that only later
#
you recognize and who are they now?
#
Like Baak. So I have a question. I have a controversial view, which I don't know,
#
Sarthak, if you've heard it before.
#
Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky.
#
Like which personality should I have in the podcast?
#
That's actually a good one. Rocky, Rocky.
#
I think we need the Sarthak, we need a flavor of Sarthak.
#
We need a flavor of Sarthak.
#
We need a flavor of Sarthak.
#
See, I need that artist.
#
You need to offend him.
#
No, we need to offend him. So you can't be Sarthak just like that.
#
Exactly. I'm in Samarth character right now.
#
You're in Samarth character right now. That's a character I know. I like the guy,
#
but who knows? I might like Rocky.
#
So you can't afford an iPhone.
#
I can't afford an iPhone.
#
I don't have an iPhone.
#
Where were we? What were we about to say?
#
You were about to ask a provocative question.
#
My provocative question is this, that people will often say,
#
ki yaar wo kya zamana tha, Shakespeare tha, ye tha wo tha, now there's no one and so on, blah blah.
#
I think that's bullshit.
#
I think that now from a simple mathematical, allegedly male point of view,
#
if you're crunching the numbers, the sample size of people creating art today
#
orders of magnitude greater than in the past, partly because there are more people,
#
partly because a much larger percentage of that people has a means of production.
#
So my contention would be that today we have musicians more talented than
#
Bach, Beethoven and the Beatles. We have etc. across all the arts.
#
But where modern life has changed, and this is largely a good thing,
#
is that there is no mainstream anymore.
#
Everybody is not listening to the same thing or reading the same thing.
#
Everything is fragmented.
#
Apne genre mein you are listening to something.
#
I know 40 other hardcore fans of Peter Kat company who are just like me,
#
but the rest of the world has simply not heard of them.
#
And I think that is okay, you know, that people get some content that's so tailored to them.
#
But one of the dangers of this is that there might be Shakespeare's who are completely lost.
#
And there are great artists.
#
I think direct counterpoints to what you said is that yeah,
#
there's a flourishing of niches like never before, but we still have monocultures,
#
Taylor Swift, Charlie XCX, every now and then,
#
because of the algorithm machine prioritizing what is like the pop sound,
#
whether it's in writing or music.
#
Do you feel they're the last of a kind or they'll always be around?
#
I think it's the industries that they're part of,
#
depend on finding the latest pop star, right?
#
So if Taylor Swift may be a little immune to this,
#
but every 10 years they find someone new and make them the spotlight.
#
My feeling is that industry itself is kind of crumbling,
#
like the mainstream is crumbling in different domains in different ways.
#
We've seen that in the media, we've seen that everywhere.
#
Like, okay, so here's a thought that tell me what you guys think,
#
that my sense is that there are many institutions today
#
and many forms of interacting that are artifacts of the past.
#
They came up for particular reasons that no longer apply.
#
For example, if I am to be a writer in the 1990s,
#
I am going to write a piece and I am going to,
#
let's say I write an 800 word piece, I send it to TOI, TOI publishes it.
#
Now what happens there is that the means of production is not with me.
#
I have to go through a gatekeeper.
#
That gatekeeper will aggregate eyeballs and they'll sell it to advertisers.
#
And I get a tiny chunk of the money and the whole system is deeply inefficient.
#
What we have today is the means of production are with me.
#
I don't have to go through gatekeepers
#
and therefore restrictions of length and subject don't apply.
#
And most importantly, I don't need the advertiser.
#
I can directly monetize my audience.
#
Now in my specific individual case, I'm lucky enough to be able to do this.
#
I know everybody isn't there yet, but in the West it is happening a lot.
#
And I think what will happen in the long run is that creators of all kinds
#
will directly be able to capture some of the value
#
that their readers have for them and they don't need to be many readers.
#
Like if someone is listening to an 8 hour episode of mine,
#
they are actually paying for it because time is money.
#
They're paying a lot for it.
#
And most of them would be glad for me to capture some of that value,
#
except in the past, it was a very inefficient way of doing it called advertising.
#
And I think in the future, you won't need that way,
#
in which case a larger meta question comes up.
#
Is that what do brands do?
#
Now I know influencer marketing, memetic desire,
#
that's a whole thing that's going on these days.
#
But as a marketer and as a creator, what are your thoughts on it, Sanjana?
#
One is I think that the dream is realizable and many people have realized it,
#
but the sheer amount, you do have to conform if not to
#
the middlemen that used to exist before and
#
being part of the social identity that would give you that access.
#
To conform instead to the new overlords, the algorithms,
#
so you have to conform to the new middlemen is basically the platform
#
and you do have to pander to what they think is good writing or good content.
#
And so that's what I mean by the Shakespeare's of today,
#
not necessarily Shakespeare's because I don't know if Shakespeare was that great, honestly.
#
But whatever they're saying that may not fit this mold,
#
that need not fit this mold, are we losing some great art?
#
Perhaps, we're always in those systems perfect.
#
But yeah, it's enabled a lot of people to have a voice.
#
I think caste consciousness has arisen in our generation because
#
for the first time, anti-caste artists got a voice that was unmediated by upper caste Indians.
#
So as a creator, yeah, nothing but great.
#
And as a brand, I think like that point we were talking about earlier,
#
which is that kind of slight role reversal maybe again,
#
where brands and the mainstream was always forming culture that then people were getting shaped by.
#
But now you have art that's spreading more faster and brands are always trying to be cool.
#
And they're not seen as cool anymore because directly selling to people,
#
nobody wants like we're tired of being sold to.
#
So as long as your stories are cool and they actually genuinely grab my attention,
#
I may actually give you some of that currency.
#
And I think there's some direction that AI might reflect.
#
It truly does liberate us from having to work.
#
And we're all just creating full time and we have basic income taken care of.
#
That is a very capitalistic route to some kind of utopia.
#
I think there is, I have a strong point of view on this because
#
actually we had the same conversation in our conversation last.
#
Which I didn't listen to again before, which I should have.
#
But I'm saying that it just came to me that how my thoughts evolved in the last two years.
#
Like I'm now on the opposite side when you know this whole idea that
#
there could be an individual creator, they can do whatever they want,
#
there is a gatekeeper, all of it.
#
By default, this set up, like criticism of the set up is to say that gatekeeping is bad.
#
That it is not allowing individual artists to flourish
#
because someone is selling them what is the right way to be.
#
I think that's where the criticism comes from.
#
That now you can flourish, more voices will be heard.
#
And if you take it to extreme, it's like just go whatever anyone wants to create,
#
they can do it in their individual capacity.
#
The current technological and economic structures allow you to do that.
#
But now what all of this loses is that, at least I believe in it.
#
A lot of good writing, a lot of good art is not an individual creation.
#
It happens through people coming together and then creating good things together.
#
And that's where you need organizations and systems to enable that kind of work.
#
So for example, the thing that I know the best in my profession is journalism
#
To imagine that no one is born a writer.
#
You don't just one day decide that from today onwards,
#
I can start doing magazine writing.
#
There is a, you learn it via mentorship.
#
You learn it by doing it with people.
#
There needs to be an editor who cares for you, who cares for your story
#
and helps you tell a better story.
#
Then potentially you can do it by yourself.
#
And based on my experience, I know that great journalism is created
#
in this setup compared to someone.
#
Like there could be an isolated person killing it on Substack.
#
But if you want to do it sustainably on the long run,
#
you need institutions to support this kind of work.
#
And also given the economic environment that we live in,
#
few creators can actually sustain.
#
But where will the new voices get a platform?
#
And how does that happen?
#
So I am now coming to an idea that there needs to be
#
a new way to think about institutions, about what these platforms are,
#
what they do, where it's not an extractive relationship,
#
where the institution is everything and the writer is not anything.
#
But the idea of institution and brands have to change,
#
which gives that support to individual artists
#
so that it doesn't feel like I am submitting myself to anyone
#
or I can't be the kind of writing I do.
#
The difference, and I was having this discussion with a good friend,
#
she's a writer, that when you're writing a book,
#
the thing that matters the most is the writer because it's your book.
#
When it comes to say a magazine, the writer matters,
#
but also it's what the ethos of the magazine is
#
and what the brand stands for.
#
And one thing that we have seen, and tell me if you disagree,
#
but there is an individual person that you can relate to
#
compared to a brand that values that it espouses for.
#
The longevity of humans going up and down and failing
#
compared to a brand sticking to its values,
#
it's very different because brand is an institution,
#
there are checks and balances.
#
The founder of the brand who is a person can fall and
#
there could be systems in place that kicks the founder out,
#
but retains the values of the brand.
#
So that if you think about the phenomena that you described,
#
not saying that it's not helpful,
#
but I think we need to recognize the importance of people coming together,
#
doing things in an institution,
#
which not only then things scale and reaches to wider people,
#
new people get introduced,
#
I think that should be part of the conversation.
#
I'm not arguing against institutions per se,
#
I'm arguing against the old kind of extractive institution,
#
which is a term that you use.
#
Number one, that all voluntary ways of people associating with each other is fantastic
#
and that is really what is happening here.
#
Number two, publications like The Plank which you've started or 52
#
would not exist in the old paradigm.
#
In the old paradigm, Supriya Nair would have been told
#
that we have no space for long-form journalism,
#
and that's what you would have been told as well.
#
But these are individuals who with people
#
managed to form new kinds of institutions
#
as a labor of love driven by certain principles
#
and the desire to say that,
#
hey, we'll make this work, we believe in it,
#
fuck you and your outdated conventions.
#
I released an episode this year as 9 hour 53 minutes.
#
It's the most popular episode of the year.
#
It's gone completely viral.
#
Every day I get mails about it.
#
You think anyone would have allowed me to do more than half an hour?
#
When Audible came to India,
#
they started something called Audible Suno, which was an app.
#
And I had just broken up with my previous partners
#
for The Scene and The Unseen then.
#
So I thought, let me go to Suno
#
and see if they want to buy The Scene and The Unseen.
#
I made the same offer to Spotify.
#
So anyway, and of course, the show wasn't as big as it is now,
#
but it was fairly big then.
#
So anyway, so I went to them
#
and they'd hired some woman from some film company
#
from some Zee something.
#
see, no one will listen more than half an hour.
#
there are people who do long episodes.
#
Have you heard of Joe Rogan?
#
At which point the conversation was over.
#
And what I was pitching was two hour episodes
#
because that's how long my show was in.
#
So I also I think the very fact
#
that the three of us can sit here together like this
#
is a testament to the fact that
#
we are in an age where we don't need gatekeepers
#
and et cetera, et cetera.
#
So that's, that's, I think, you know, the difference.
#
I think you said something
#
I really hope to see come alive someday,
#
but that will the question is a middleman existed.
#
They're not as extractive
#
or in the same inaccessible shape as before,
#
I am able to pander to the algorithm to a decent degree.
#
I'm not, I don't, I don't find the process averse.
#
I find myself as fluid and mutatable enough.
#
But I think conceptually there needs to be a way
#
in the oldest paradigm of how it existed,
#
which is that the artist cares about nothing
#
but their survival is not a question.
#
They are patrons of the court
#
and the king is sort of secure enough in himself
#
to sort of employ the court jester
#
and all these artists and sort of fund them and stuff.
#
So where is that today?
#
The artist is fending for survival and is creating art.
#
So when, when you talk of like institutional support
#
that create these platforms, I don't know, like,
#
you know, not specifically the plank or the 52,
#
but I saw a tweet that said,
#
why aren't VC sort of funding art?
#
Instead they're feeling threatened by artists
#
and creating their own, you know,
#
sort of channels to the public
#
because they don't want to,
#
they think journalists are attacking their status
#
and sort of they don't have the,
#
they're in the business of creating false narratives.
#
So we need to have our dialect channel to the public.
#
Instead, like, why don't you patronize the arts, right?
#
So what is, where is that culture of,
#
you know, institutions funding art
#
apart from very small pockets in India?
#
Is that what you meant when you were talking about?
#
No, see, there is, again, one distinction here is that
#
like I've had some conversations with people
#
that how in general India,
#
we don't have a great philanthropic culture.
#
And whenever, whatever philanthropy exists,
#
given where we are as a country,
#
you want to invest in health, education,
#
you know, they're like other deeper problems to be solved,
#
problems to be solved rather than thinking
#
that we'll direct our money to creation of art,
#
which may or may not do anything to the world.
#
And you know, this whole idea on impact,
#
which art may not directly have,
#
at least you can't measure it or see it.
#
So this sense of doing something for the public good,
#
that something should exist just because,
#
you know, it should exist,
#
that compared to other like cultures,
#
even if you compare to the United States,
#
you don't see that culture happening in India.
#
And it comes from that sense about, okay,
#
what is, if I have so much money,
#
where it should go, how should I allocate it?
#
Can I get more wealth from it?
#
So there is that one layer of just
#
what a lot of people who have dabbled with philanthropy
#
and trying to raise money to do things have experienced.
#
But on the other hand, I also feel that it,
#
again, I don't have the facts here,
#
but feels that there's some slightly romanticization
#
Because when you read about artists and writers in the past,
#
you know, I've always like this romantic idea
#
of that there is a writer who just wakes up in the morning,
#
writes their books and then goes to sleep
#
and has coffee and whatever.
#
That seems like a small minority because the more you read,
#
you're like, yeah, people are waiting tables at the night
#
and waking up, writing, you know, just trying to get through.
#
But somehow now we have this idea that, no, I'm a writer,
#
so all I should do is write.
#
Past time romanticizing is before 1920s.
#
I think you're romanticizing it severely because the truth was
#
that 99% of people then were just dirt poor.
#
And even those who were patronized by the courts
#
would be a small handful of people.
#
And they would have to please and cater to the tastes
#
of whoever was there in the court.
#
So we can maybe romanticize certain figures,
#
but there's a tremendous selection effect in play
#
that are happening, I think.
#
And like, I think this is by far the greatest era
#
for artists that has ever been by far.
#
The other point I would make is one about philanthropy
#
is that, and I've been thinking deeply about it,
#
and there's a fundamental way in which philanthropists worldwide,
#
but especially in India, get something wrong
#
and leave art out of it for a second.
#
Look at even the philanthropic work that they do
#
in the sectors you mentioned, which are education and health,
#
which is that philanthropists, especially naive philanthropists,
#
like every philanthropist in India,
#
they have a need for things that are measurable and attributable.
#
It's not that they want an ROI, it's philanthropy,
#
but they want their impact to be measurable
#
so they can tell it to themselves, if not to others,
#
that, hey, we did this, we fed so many villages
#
or we sent so many kids to school, so it has to be measurable.
#
And then it has to be attributable to them,
#
which means that it has to be a short-term thing, necessarily,
#
because in the long term, nothing is attributable in this deeply complex world.
#
And the things that really make a difference to human progress
#
are things that in the short term are neither measurable nor attributable.
#
And this is a major problem, not just with philanthropy,
#
but also within the mainstream economics profession,
#
within the things that the World Bank chooses to do,
#
because they're all focusing on,
#
ki RCT karo, let us prove that malaria,
#
that mosquito nets help prevent malaria,
#
which was literally an RCT,
#
because that is measurable and then it is attributable
#
because you'll distribute malaria nets,
#
as if you made some great discovery,
#
but it actually does nothing to move the needle.
#
You know, I've had an episode with Land Pritchett on this
#
and seen on the Unseen.
#
I've done an episode of Everything is Everything on development.
#
So I think this is a fundamental problem with people with money,
#
whether they are institutions or philanthropists need to think about,
#
that you need to take the broader view and get the ego out of it.
#
That it doesn't matter if no one says,
#
ki isne acha kaam kiya,
#
do I really care about the world?
#
Then this is where I'll spend my money.
#
And there, I think the argument that the flourishing of art
#
is a huge positive externality,
#
to use a term they would understand,
#
is I think indisputable.
#
That is a case that can be made so well.
#
there is no liberal democracy in the world,
#
which doesn't have free speech and a flourishing art movement.
#
But if you are going to say,
#
ki oh, I want to boast about what I did,
#
what good I did with my money.
#
You can't measure the impact of a beautiful song.
#
this is something I've observed in a lot of, like,
#
very problem being in thirties,
#
like when you see younger people, right?
#
I'm also, you know, you feel young.
#
But like even younger people,
#
that, you know, this whole thing about that,
#
you know, I want my work to have an impact.
#
You know, if there's no impact, then what am I doing?
#
So the moment you say that it's impact,
#
like what is the idea of impact in your head?
#
Now, it's not just actually
#
the philanthropists or people with money.
#
It's a cultural thing, right?
#
If you want to say that my work has impact,
#
so it should be visible,
#
so then the way you choose your jobs
#
and like, I see that in journalism, right?
#
Like, what kind of stories are worth telling
#
Has it been discussed in the parliament?
#
You know, like, usse did something happen
#
But does that like really change?
#
Like, is that the only metric
#
with which we are going to tell
#
which stories were telling or not?
#
If you do, if that is your benchmark,
#
and I think it applies across professions.
#
Then there is a fundamental selection bias
#
in that you have added right at the beginning
#
about what gets created, what does not get created.
#
And you are going away from the first principles of
#
if at all you thought about the purpose of your work, right?
#
If you know this, you see what I'm trying to say that
#
and that is where you see the delinking
#
between purpose and impact.
#
Like in effectively impact should come from purpose.
#
But when you forget that there is a thing called purpose,
#
which is not measurable, it is about values.
#
And start evaluating everything
#
from the sense of what is visible, what is metric.
#
Actually, you're doing a disservice
#
not only to the quote unquote cause,
#
And do that for five years.
#
And I've seen so many people ending up disillusioned
#
from the world of nonprofits
#
and philanthropic organizations
#
or social, doing social good
#
inside management consultancies.
#
This is exactly the pattern.
#
Because if you are going back to earlier conversations,
#
self-aware, you will see it for what it is.
#
And then it will hit you.
#
I think there's two parts to this.
#
One is that, yeah, I think anyone who is pulled
#
towards creating art in the way that if I don't do it,
#
I will not, I will fall sick.
#
You are doing it because you don't care about the impact.
#
You do it because you have to.
#
It's a physical necessity almost.
#
And so that base thing is always there.
#
But I went from initially thinking that
#
I don't give a shit what anyone says about my writing.
#
I have this internal definition and standard of excellence.
#
And so long as I'm achieving that, it's great.
#
But then I started to see the value of quote-unquote impact.
#
And let's just call the derisive version of it
#
Because it started to give me more opportunities,
#
more leeway to do the kind of things I love.
#
The more leeway to do it the way I wanted to do it.
#
Just writing a piece with a certain vision instead of,
#
because I'm a name that nobody knows,
#
now I have to toe the party line,
#
tell the story the way you wanted to say,
#
If I have a point, I'm taking it a little more seriously.
#
So I think there was this French writer called Honor de Bazac.
#
What? Are you aware of that?
#
No, no. How would he die of coffee?
#
He's got a great essay where he talks about drinking coffee.
#
So he used to write in four-day frenzies.
#
And he would use coffee for that.
#
And at one point his addiction grew so severe
#
that he couldn't just drink coffee.
#
He would just chew coffee beans.
#
And then eventually that gave him liver disease and he died.
#
Like perhaps you and I will also, but continue.
#
That is the most unglamorous image of the tortured artist.
#
Chewing coffee out of addiction.
#
But he has a quote that I'm paraphrasing,
#
which is basically the artist's biggest challenge
#
is to get recognition or to get this thing.
#
Because once you do, you will be able to do better art.
#
So I've gone from disparaging it
#
to sort of realizing strategically, creatively,
#
it's a necessary thing to navigate.
#
Any other professional institution,
#
there's an amount of networking and there's an amount of...
#
Gatekeeping doesn't exist to the degree that it is,
#
but you do want to make the effort to
#
put it in front of the right eyes, get your art.
#
And if you really believe in your art,
#
which I've come to realize that maybe my disparagement
#
was also self-abandonment in some ways.
#
If you want the best for your art,
#
you will create the conditions in which it can thrive.
#
That is also the artist's responsibility.
#
So I actually like the point that you guys made
#
that actually maybe it was never that great for anyone
#
Maybe most of them obviously did struggle.
#
John Denver went around peddling his music.
#
It's only posthumously that we know the great names
#
to be great names, but they all probably read
#
quite unglamorous lives that we as consumers
#
Just to add a nuance on it, that when I say impact,
#
see, if I am creating something and I believe in it,
#
of course I want it to be read by more number of people.
#
And I think that's what you're referring to.
#
So long as the trade-off exists,
#
just to be read by more number of people,
#
I don't think I'm going to say something
#
I just don't identify with.
#
That's what I'm saying.
#
So you prioritize authenticity,
#
but then you really go all out on...
#
Yeah, so I think that's the nuance here.
#
First, you create what you think needs to be created
#
based on your vision, your values.
#
You don't compromise on it.
#
Then you say, okay, what is the world in which I'm living in?
#
I'm living in this world where if you have to reach people,
#
if you have to discover people,
#
there are different ways you do it.
#
Again, if you forget a very isolated writer kind of thinking
#
and just think of it as a brand,
#
and you're trying to place your products to be discovered,
#
Like you do small things at a small store
#
so that your thing gets visible.
#
But on the other hand, you might do a billboard ad.
#
So there are all sorts of things you're doing
#
because this is the world you live in.
#
This is how people discover you.
#
once you are clear about your values and what you're doing,
#
then you find, okay, if I'm on Twitter,
#
what needs to be done so that my work gets to more people?
#
If I'm on LinkedIn, what am I doing?
#
What am I doing on Instagram?
#
What am I doing on my newsletter?
#
What am I doing other places?
#
So strategically, it's not about saying,
#
I don't care about reach,
#
but saying as long as the right balance is,
#
And then if there are some strategic input you can put in
#
to get more reach, then do it.
#
Because then someone can be happy with,
#
jungle mein mor naacha kisne dekha.
#
So if you're that person, great.
#
You'll be approached for more writing assignments.
#
But I want to add to that.
#
I'm agreeing with both of you,
#
but just like one sort of conversation
#
I often have with my writing students is,
#
what should they write?
#
Where I tell them that you should keep,
#
you should always have the reader in your mind
#
because writing is not just transferring the thoughts
#
into your head onto your laptop,
#
you want it to be read.
#
But that should never apply to the content itself.
#
Your content should be what it is.
#
You should never compromise, never dumb it down.
#
Because I think what happens is,
#
and you made this point that you lose your authentic self,
#
that if you chase the lowest common denominator,
#
you will completely lose your soul.
#
Never second guess what people want to read.
#
Just write what you write.
#
Now, regarding the point that you made,
#
that it's got to get published
#
and I got to get my name out there,
#
otherwise what's the point?
#
Even if I do good work, no one will read it.
#
it's how do you get that process started
#
and you can do the kind of writing that you do.
#
And the need to get your name known
#
is so that you get the financial independence
#
and you can write what you want.
#
But in many cases, in my case and in your case,
#
we don't write for money.
#
We write because we want to write.
#
You're a marketing person.
#
I've done many labors of love for no money at all.
#
luckily, we are fortunate enough to be,
#
And in that case, I would say it is actually a mistake
#
where you're getting published for two reasons.
#
Again, what I'll often tell my writing students
#
is that let's go back to the 90s for a moment
#
and I'll make a separate point.
#
You write a piece that comes out in Indian Express.
#
Two months later, you write another piece
#
that comes out in Times of India.
#
Somebody reads you in both places
#
haan, Sanjana writes well.
#
But they really have no way to do so
#
and it's very dispersed.
#
Plus, what is happening is
#
because of the gatekeepers and the formats
#
and the fashions of the moment,
#
you are doing less writing than you otherwise would
#
along a much narrower band
#
in terms of form and content.
#
So what I recommend for them is that
#
if you're not trying to make a living out of it,
#
start a newsletter, for example,
#
where you write whatever the hell you want
#
and you might have 10 readers to begin with.
#
Because what happens there is that
#
unlike the previous example
#
where somebody reads your piece
#
and they say, haan, interesting person
#
and then they lose track of you,
#
here, the moment somebody likes a piece by you,
#
they put their email ID
#
and for the rest of your life,
#
they are part of the Sanjana community.
#
And then everything that you do,
#
whether it is screenplays,
#
whether inshallah in future
#
it is crowdfunding to make a film,
#
these people who are already fans of you are there.
#
So that is one advantage
#
and the second advantage
#
is we get to excellence by constant iteration,
#
and by trying new things.
#
And your own publishing site,
#
whether it is a blog or a newsletter,
#
Writing for others simply doesn't
#
without even realizing it,
#
you constrain yourself.
#
So I think it's great, great conversation, right?
#
When, like I said, when I started,
#
the stories that came to me,
#
there was like a mold that they had
#
and I was looking out in the world
#
for places that would be the best home for it.
#
And I think I would love to get
#
both your thoughts on this,
#
but it's because I had this notion
#
and internalized notion of the writer-writer.
#
I just didn't want to be any,
#
because anyone can start a sub stack.
#
Anyone can write for 10 weeks in a row.
#
Anyone can sort of mind their mundane lives
#
for some profound something on this or that.
#
what is the gold standard of excellence
#
if I was to think about it for myself as a writer?
#
what are the ideas that come to me then?
#
And that's why I kind of like,
#
for example, I haven't sort of,
#
I don't think I've been published
#
I haven't been published in the Hindu.
#
I haven't been published
#
in too many mainstream places
#
that might get me the most readership
#
or at least explain to my mom
#
that I'm a legit writer.
#
But I sought places where I saw like a match
#
in what I think is literary excellence
#
or like a really good writing.
#
And I think that that process is teachable too, right?
#
So if you define what is the best writing to you
#
and if you are able to find a way to actualize that
#
it could be your sub stack,
#
it could be your publication,
#
some that thing that has like 5,000 followers
#
that nobody else knows about.
#
if it's true to your unique ideas,
#
That's what I think is one of the first things to do.
#
those are strategic things
#
that I started thinking about
#
after doing it for a while.
#
I was like, oh, Twitter matters,
#
Instagram matters and all of that.
#
But I was not led by that.
#
And I would say that actually to your point,
#
it's also perhaps useful to be led by that.
#
I think the writers that I look at now
#
and the reason I call myself Sasha at times
#
actually is because there's a writer
#
called Sasha Chapin on Twitter
#
who has a newsletter called Sasha's Newsletter.
#
He writes a lot about meditation,
#
writes a lot about like everyday mundane,
#
art of living, daily life kind of things.
#
And I would like to maybe go in that direction next,
#
but it's only after I've done some of the things
#
that spoke to me first.
#
So I think everybody also has like their own individual,
#
especially if you are an artist
#
and you're not doing this because,
#
oh, it's cool to be a writer.
#
Everybody's a writer today.
#
I also want to following.
#
If you're not doing it for those reasons,
#
if you are following the ideas that come to you,
#
it may look like a path that has never existed before,
#
but you will feel called to pursue it.
#
I just have to say one small thing.
#
You just casually said that everyone can,
#
you know, write 10 weeks in a row.
#
I think they should give a pat.
#
They pat themselves on the back that they did it.
#
Even if like 20 people are reading it,
#
because I know so many people
#
who have the urge to write.
#
They have things to say and they have
#
like they have genuinely good things to say.
#
Like when they tell me that
#
I have an idea in my mind,
#
then I'm like, why are you not writing?
#
Comes a whole thing about
#
What's the benefit of it?
#
All of those things will come in
#
and they'll never write.
#
Or they'll say that I was talking to a friend.
#
You know, he said to me
#
such a good clear thinking process
#
when he writes memos, so good.
#
But I said, why don't you write then?
#
So it's like the writing that I imagine is good.
#
So why should I publish?
#
You know, we keep talking about
#
taste and talent difference.
#
So that's what I'm saying that
#
if there's someone out there
#
I see there's actually a small minority
#
who actually gets started
#
and an even smaller minority
#
who keeps continuing doing it
#
So nothing against what you said.
#
I feel like you see what I'm saying.
#
Not everyone actually creates.
#
It's enlightening to me that
#
cavalier about writing 10 weeks in a row.
#
You have already explained
#
very forcefully that you're brilliant
#
and you're the best and all of those things
#
So maybe I should try writing 10 weeks in a row.
#
I feel like I'll be able to do it.
#
But I think some of it is also
#
the whole being different thing, right?
#
Like if everyone, if in my head,
#
everyone can have a subset,
#
what is the really hard thing to do?
#
The problem with all of these,
#
I think that when you say that
#
if anyone can start a substrate,
#
you know, Jung saying that
#
anyone can write a book.
#
Any psychologist can come up with a theory.
#
Ninety nine percent of everything is crap.
#
But you want to be at one percent.
#
So I don't think that's a thing.
#
The other thing is that
#
the one thing that it took me years
#
and years and years and years to get past
#
is the desire for validation.
#
Like even some of the terms
#
that you've been using,
#
like gold standard of excellence, right?
#
That is an outward directed term.
#
Other people call something the good, you know,
#
there's a lot of crap in those publications also,
#
like each of the publications you've written for.
#
But that goes back to the earlier point.
#
But the other thing I would say is that,
#
you know, there's no need for you
#
to do anything different, as you just said.
#
There's only a need for you to be yourself.
#
And what allows that the most is the question.
#
So I think when I say gold standard of excellence,
#
I mean, what are works of art
#
touched me and I remembered
#
And then I think those are sort of coagulated
#
with my own thoughts in some form
#
You use that phrase for publications.
#
That I would only write for publications
#
that I thought of as gold standards for excellence.
#
And I'm saying firstly,
#
there's nothing like that.
#
And secondly, the gold standard for excellence
#
is almost an outward directed term that, you know...
#
yes, the New Yorker produces a bunch of crap,
#
but I would love to have a byline there.
#
Don't you have like these...
#
What are you measuring your writing life by?
#
Right now, actually, you know, here's the thing.
#
So for about 20, 30 years of my life,
#
I thought the New Yorker is amazing
#
and I'd love to have my fiction published there someday.
#
I actually no longer do.
#
That, you know, they publish a particular kind of thing
#
And, you know, some of their regular writers
#
like Alice Munro have just been
#
dear, dear favorites of mine.
#
But I no longer have that
#
because I just want to do work that kind of...
#
And then it finds its way out into the world.
#
And that's, you know, happened with the podcast,
#
not happened with writing
#
because I haven't done enough of it.
#
But otherwise, what is there?
#
Otherwise, you're chasing something from someone.
#
I think, Sanjana, for me,
#
this is something I feel very fortunate about.
#
One of the greatest things that happened with me
#
is that I got my first byline in the Atlantic.
#
So one came, then you get a second byline.
#
And, like, I remember the first byline came out.
#
The people around me, suddenly, you know, the stature changes.
#
Like, this has an article in the Atlantic, right?
#
So, like, he would be some category of a writer
#
if he has a byline in the Atlantic.
#
Like, I would go and say,
#
where are you published?
#
I have a byline in the Atlantic.
#
But then you soon realize that
#
I actually don't want it.
#
I don't want to write for an international publication
#
where, if I'm writing a political story,
#
I have to explain what the BJP is.
#
And, you know, the ideas about,
#
yes, it's a great American publication.
#
But actually, I don't care about that much
#
Yeah, so the reason I look to Sasha's writing now
#
is also because of, like, how independent it is,
#
how untied by editorial,
#
anyone else's editorial considerations it is.
#
In the 2000s, I wrote for the Wall Street Journal,
#
The Guardian, The Observer,
#
I won the Bastia Prize.
#
I could have basically written for anybody in the world
#
And I absolutely fucking hated it.
#
Because then when you write BJP,
#
you have to write comma Hindu nationalist party.
#
And you have to explain everything and dumb it down.
#
And I didn't want to simplify, you know,
#
we spoke about the two storytelling instincts.
#
For them, I would have to simplify.
#
I didn't want to simplify.
#
I wanted to go deeper into my own little whatever.
#
And once I got past the thrill of the validation,
#
that the firangs are publishing me.
#
These guys are publishing me.
#
so voluntarily, I haven't written for them
#
And obviously, I could have built my brand
#
But I don't want to do it.
#
if I have to just imagine from your perspective,
#
I think you're coming also from a sense of,
#
is it an internal compass that,
#
that, let's say, whom you imagined,
#
have, let's say, an editor
#
who has a taste for good writing or publication.
#
okay, I've touched the milestone
#
and now I can be free or like I get discovered?
#
Is it coming from there?
#
Or is it something else?
#
Because we have actually,
#
we have had this conversation,
#
if you remember, where I am big on self-publishing.
#
That there are so many times,
#
I would write something and friends would say,
#
why don't you write it for someone?
#
And I'm like, I don't want to write it for someone.
#
I'll put it up on my blog.
#
And we'll see what happens.
#
I think three, four thoughts are coming to mind right now.
#
One is this external validation,
#
sort of, you aren't something
#
until someone else really reputed says you are that,
#
which sort of, like I said,
#
brands define your life.
#
What defines your life?
#
Brands define your life.
#
If you've had a, like I said, setbacks in your life,
#
the way you earn respect is by,
#
and like we're all here because
#
we've been affiliated with some great brands in our life,
#
like status in society,
#
like heuristics is what people use.
#
So maybe there's a trace of that thinking
#
or that as a way of strategizing and navigating the world
#
that's been there in my life.
#
Because how do you break it down?
#
How do I become a writer?
#
I seek places where writer-writers-
#
And for that, for me, like the artistry comes in,
#
because that's not Times of India necessarily.
#
For me, that stood out as the caravan for instance.
#
I really liked their writing,
#
the way they broke stories down.
#
At that time, I really liked,
#
and I still think there's a lot of,
#
I know you have your thoughts about the place.
#
We both have thoughts about the caravan.
#
We both have, but let's not digress.
#
But basically, the places that appeal to me,
#
who's the stories that touched a chord,
#
those struck a chord with me.
#
Then the second thing I think is,
#
I'm not going to say that my stance has merit or not merit.
#
It's just it is what it is.
#
But I do think you said be yourself, right?
#
And then I was like being different.
#
Maybe that is a driving core of my aesthetic.
#
Like if everybody's doing something,
#
Even if I do it my own way,
#
like I want to find like,
#
I would love to start like a Sasha-esque substrack,
#
speaking of like personal essays,
#
whatever's happening in my life.
#
I think you're being incredibly hard on yourself.
#
And it just almost makes me angry when you say that,
#
you know, I have to be different.
#
No, you don't have to be different.
#
And that'll be good enough.
#
And that will by default be different.
#
I have said this to so many friends,
#
I've said publicly, you are you.
#
If she writes an entity column,
#
that if she wrote personal,
#
you know, I would have loved like 2000 more words.
#
But in that entity column also,
#
My voice comes through, I think.
#
So I'm not fussed about this.
#
And I don't think this is a version of me being hard on myself.
#
It's just a very strong aesthetic sensibility
#
I have a very strong cringe thing.
#
certain things are capital C cool,
#
certain things are capital C cringe.
#
So write the capital C cool things.
#
And I'll tell you what,
#
like this self-publishing thing,
#
very few people get it super right.
#
A lot of self-published is just not good quality.
#
Yeah, but you know what...
#
See, and I wanted to say this to both of you.
#
It's only after you got that brand
#
that you decided to just walk away from the brand.
#
It's only people who've walked the brands
#
that then have the status to choose a lower status path.
#
But if that's what you directly did,
#
that curve would be much steeper
#
where you're building your own brand independently
#
without affiliation to anything else.
#
Yeah, but you know, I went through that experience,
#
but it didn't do much differently
#
in terms of the way the outside world view me.
#
All the credit I had was from doing India Uncut,
#
which was this madly successful blog in those years,
#
I played poker for five years.
#
And everybody forgot me.
#
When I came back, no one knew who I was.
#
The world had completely changed.
#
Twitter had become deeply toxic,
#
not a place for conversations.
#
And I had to start from scratch completely.
#
And literally there was nothing.
#
Those brands were meaningless.
#
I mean, to most of my listeners,
#
it must be a surprise that I ever wrote for those guys.
#
So it was completely there in the past.
#
So where I'm coming from is that
#
I came at myself in a sense,
#
having felt that I have been a failure all my life.
#
And in certain aspects, I still feel that
#
in the sense I haven't written the 10 books
#
I should have written and all of that.
#
And I think that brought me to a place where I said
#
that I have to stop freaking torturing myself
#
by caring about what the world thinks of me
#
and just doing the things that make me happy,
#
like certain kind of work makes me happy.
#
Now the scene in the Unseen happened to be
#
which became something that I really came to,
#
that went deeply into and kind of enjoyed.
#
But what I would love to see happen in your progression,
#
like I totally get it that early in your career,
#
you are at one level even trying to convince yourself
#
And therefore it is useful to be published
#
by Express and Caravan and all that.
#
And I totally get that because I've been through
#
those exact same phrases,
#
the thrill that you get when you see your,
#
you know, byline in a particular paper
#
or you see your credits at the end of a TV show.
#
I worked for five years in television in the 90s.
#
But I think the next step at some point
#
and hopefully after your book comes out,
#
And you do you with ferocity and with zero compromise
#
and a newsletter feels like one way of doing it.
#
Maybe you become an Instagram real superstar,
#
it doesn't really matter.
#
I feel like what I'm about to say
#
might be construed as defensive,
#
But I feel like the book that I'm writing,
#
the book that I've written,
#
it's the most unfettered sort of me that I've been.
#
Now, what I feel about long form has changed
#
in the process of writing.
#
It was also my reservations with picking up
#
something intense in long form right now
#
is that I do feel like if I'm listening to myself
#
and what I'm being called to create next,
#
So, I feel like I have always been strategizing
#
between my internal compass and the home
#
that it can find outside in the world.
#
I don't know how to be.
#
I would love actually to be a little inauthentic
#
and have like a more mainstream kind of...
#
I don't think I've been able to do that.
#
So, but I think I get where you're coming from,
#
which is that be even more myself.
#
This is exactly where we didn't want to end up
#
where two men are advising a woman on her career choices.
#
Now, we immediately need self-cancellation on each other.
#
We have fallen in front of our own eyes.
#
So, I've completely forgotten,
#
but I have a suggestion.
#
The suggestion is we take a break
#
and the delightful thing that I like
#
is we've spoken for I think a total of about
#
3 hours, 50 minutes and not even got into dating.
#
So, let's take a break and let's kind of come back to that.
#
And, you know, I will of course...
#
Yeah, so we'll have to see what the title of this episode is.
#
It'll have something to do with dating,
#
but then I'll have to put a caveat in the intro.
#
That why we've been talking like this for 3-4 hours.
#
Later, we'll get to the love romance dating identity.
#
Have you always wanted to be a writer,
#
but never quite gotten down to it?
#
Well, I'd love to help you.
#
Since April 2020, I've enjoyed teaching 27 cohorts
#
of my online course here out of clear writing
#
and an online community has now sprung up
#
of all my past students.
#
We have workshops, a newsletter to showcase
#
the work of students and vibrant community interaction.
#
In the course itself, through 4 webinars
#
spread over 4 weekends, I share all I know
#
about the craft and practice of clear writing.
#
There are many exercises, much interaction
#
and a lovely and lively community at the end of it.
#
The course costs rupees 10,000 plus GST
#
If you're interested, head on over to register
#
at IndiaUncut.com slash clear writing.
#
That's IndiaUncut.com slash clear writing.
#
Being a good writer doesn't require God-given talent,
#
just a willingness to work hard and a clear idea
#
of what you need to do to refine your skills.
#
Welcome back to the Scene in the Unseen.
#
This episode has transformed into
#
Rocky or Rani Ki Amar Kahani
#
or is it the romance between Sasha and Sarthak
#
Akka Sanju Babija, what a great name,
#
Let's start talking about sort of,
#
I won't even say dating, that's a little bit narrow,
#
but that whole process of finding love,
#
figuring out what you want, defining love for yourself,
#
And I'll begin with you, Sarthak,
#
because you wrote this piece which I think
#
has surely become iconic and hopefully
#
gotten you many dates called Romantic Idiot,
#
where you kind of spoke about your lack of experience
#
till 28 and spoke about how your friends
#
would keep telling you to go on a date,
#
not required, I'm happy,
#
and you know, it's going on as it were.
#
And you have this intriguing line at one point
#
where you say when people around me
#
were building relationships with others,
#
I was busy building a relationship with myself.
#
because most people never do this,
#
that is build a relationship with themselves, not with you.
#
So, can you elaborate on this a little bit?
#
Like, what do you mean by building a relationship with myself?
#
And what was, in general,
#
like all of us have a fuzzy notion of romance in our heads
#
or fuzzy romance of how relationships will play out.
#
What was that for you and how did that evolve?
#
When I say building a relationship with myself,
#
I think it was just how I think about my 20s,
#
that it's like you're out in the world,
#
you have a notion about how things are,
#
and you are consistently in the place of,
#
we were previously also discussing it, right?
#
Like, how you see yourself, how the world sees you,
#
what is your place in the world, all of that.
#
So, those questions both about values,
#
the work I was doing, the life I wanted to build,
#
and that's been right through college,
#
that thinking about it,
#
and 20s were the time when you were like
#
really shaping your identity in so many ways.
#
So, that I think consumed so much of me,
#
intentionally taking decisions,
#
taking life in a certain way,
#
that all of it just over a period of time
#
meant about trying to really figure out
#
And especially this really triggered when
#
I started my freelance career in 2019,
#
I was outside any institution,
#
pandemic hit all your by-selves,
#
then I moved to the mountains.
#
So, that whole period of four, four and a half years,
#
that was really just about being okay with myself.
#
And what then starts happening,
#
especially in retrospect now,
#
I think I spent three years in the mountains,
#
living in a cottage by myself,
#
that's a transformative experience.
#
So, all your day structured around
#
trying to really make things work,
#
both professionally, personally,
#
what gives you satisfaction.
#
So, when you're really in that zone,
#
it's not that you're not being interested in people,
#
like, you know, getting romantic urges
#
or like, you know, getting feelings
#
so someone is a near universal human experience.
#
But it just does not, at that phase of my life,
#
that was just not something that crossed
#
that I want to build a relationship with someone,
#
like not through the entire two years,
#
I'm just talking about that process of mid to late 20s,
#
that it never just crossed as an idea.
#
Like I saw people around me
#
when conversation would start as,
#
you know, finding their partner
#
being one of like the dominant questions
#
around structuring their lives.
#
It was just never an idea that struck me
#
and it felt so suffocating
#
because I would go at places
#
and it was almost assumed that if you're single,
#
then there's something off
#
and that it's a transient state,
#
like, you know, they will say things like,
#
oh, no, no, you'll find someone
#
or something will happen.
#
And I'm like, why are you telling me
#
that I have a problem in your life
#
and I am not telling there's a problem in your life, right?
#
So, that is where that line meant
#
that just because you think
#
that I should be finding a partner
#
does not necessarily apply.
#
That is the context, life context in which I am.
#
So, that is what relationship with self meant.
#
It was not something like super conscious.
#
It's just me trying to figure out
#
what was I really doing
#
and that's what it turned out to be.
#
and trying to create, you know,
#
like what seemingly good life.
#
Yeah, I totally get that
#
and Sanjana in this beautiful piece
#
that, you know, you wrote,
#
it feels like it's almost the opposite way with you.
#
That whereas summer started with this sense
#
of that, you know, why should,
#
I'm okay, I'm doing my own thing.
#
With you, it was almost this sense
#
that there is a pattern
#
and that pattern involves you're getting married.
#
And then at one point in your piece, you write,
#
settling down suddenly seemed too distant
#
from who I felt I was becoming,
#
even though I'd been anxious to get married
#
throughout my late 20s, right?
#
And I'm very interested in
#
how this realization comes about
#
because till then you're kind of living
#
As you mentioned in that piece,
#
you're in a great relationship with a great guy.
#
Everything is so awesome.
#
that takes you into a direction
#
that to everyone around you
#
must seem both irrational
#
and even out of character, perhaps?
#
I think actually even before early 20s, right?
#
I remember I talked about
#
having an eating disorder
#
that started with my cousin
#
initiating me into girlhood.
#
Around the same time, when I was fat,
#
a male friend that I had just made was like,
#
How are you going to get guys to go out with you?
#
And he was referring to my weight.
#
Like I just joined the JEE coaching
#
and I'd met this not the best friend,
#
And I mean, I think all of those things
#
started happening together where actually
#
I thought I was super independent always,
#
but subconsciously in your conditioning
#
is driving you in different ways.
#
So I think maybe my girlhood,
#
my body image, the way I thought I should look,
#
everything was driven towards a single point.
#
How am I going to get guys to go out with me?
#
What about this incredible pressure to be like...
#
For women, I think it's about
#
being the best possible mate you can, right?
#
Like that's where you're...
#
Even if you're educated
#
and sort of being pushed to excel in your academics,
#
it's with the ultimate goal
#
of increasing your market value.
#
At least as your family sees it
#
or as a lot of people in society see it.
#
So it actually goes back that far
#
where if I'm not dating someone as a girl
#
and I'm not being crushed upon,
#
then am I even enough of a girl?
#
And I think as I started working out
#
as Navya, my cousin and I,
#
we started grooming ourselves to be pretty and girly.
#
We did get the commensurate attention and validation
#
It's a drug when you are the center of attention
#
and everybody likes you.
#
And it's not necessarily very superficial, right?
#
People were actually interested in me.
#
They saw that I was funny and pretty.
#
Nobody wants to stop being that so much
#
so that as you get into your thirties
#
and you realize that that girlhood is not...
#
That girlhood, you're now entering womanhood.
#
I kind of have a longing for those years of my life still.
#
I feel I look very fondly upon it.
#
I think with some amount of this is dystopian,
#
but I'm like, thank God I actually got into shape sometimes.
#
I'm like, thank God that friend told me that
#
because it did turn out to be strategically right or whatever.
#
So as I started getting that attention,
#
I actually met boys that I liked.
#
We were thick friends, good chemistry.
#
We actually had many meaningful relationships.
#
So it never seemed like there's any kind of problem
#
until my late twenties when breakups started
#
having a lot of anxiety for me.
#
I was just like, why am I not able to make it work?
#
Because if this doesn't end in marriage,
#
then I have to find the next thing
#
and that needs to end in marriage.
#
So the fact that like your degree and like your career,
#
your romantic life becomes a project
#
that's associated with success and status.
#
Like someone said, you will be seen as weird
#
and then singlehood is meant to be transient.
#
As you mature, I realized that actually those were
#
towards the end of my twenties,
#
those were the forces driving my relationships
#
more than my deeply noticing the other person
#
and loving them for who they are.
#
Have I always just been craving a relationship
#
so that I could say that I'm normal
#
and I'm capable of despite everything
#
my family's been through,
#
I'm capable of a normal relationship.
#
So I think it was that confrontation with the self
#
that made me realize that if I can't say for sure,
#
like sure nothing on paper is wrong
#
with any of these things, but it doesn't feel right.
#
It feels like there may have been layers of influence
#
that I don't know that I want to identify with.
#
I need to investigate deeply
#
what I want in a relationship with you.
#
I need to see if I want to be with other people.
#
I just know that I don't want to get married
#
in this frame of mind where I feel conflicted about it.
#
So I think, and I think that this is not atypical
#
for women if you've been socialized
#
to equate self-worth with your relationship status
#
and how much people desire you.
#
You're constantly subconsciously molding yourself
#
into a personality that fits.
#
So yeah, for me it was the reverse.
#
And I think it's interesting that we've had different parts
#
and different relationships with singlehood.
#
Only now I feel like as I have been single
#
for the last couple of years,
#
I feel more autonomous.
#
I'm not using my relationship as a crutch as I was at times.
#
I can't make up my mind about something.
#
You helped me make this decision.
#
Especially as an artist and as a writer,
#
you're sort of putting your mind on paper.
#
So you need to have conviction without other people supporting you.
#
And I feel like it's been very emboldening for me
#
to put myself out there without a man affirming me this whole time.
#
Like, oh, you're not crazy.
#
These jokes are not too weird for the internet.
#
I just put it out anyway without any sort of...
#
Sometimes my friends will proofread what I have to say,
#
but mostly I think these are big wins to make up your own mind
#
about everything in your life.
#
Towards the end of our relationship,
#
like I say, I mean, there was nothing wrong on paper.
#
If I had to get married to someone, he was probably the right mate.
#
But the issues that we were having, there was emotional distance.
#
I felt like we were not connected to each other.
#
I felt like I might be polyamorous.
#
So I didn't know that unless we opened up our relationship,
#
how I could just sort of shut down that part of me
#
that felt like it was just brewing.
#
But there was also things like, I kind of was craving solitude.
#
I didn't enjoy being around someone all the time.
#
And in a situation where you're supposed to get married to someone,
#
the expectation is that you will continue living with someone forever.
#
Then your families will become entangled with each other.
#
Their family is your family.
#
And I just, I wasn't sure that I wanted all of that,
#
even though I liked them, right?
#
It just seemed like too much entanglement,
#
which now some people might say is avoidance or the avoidant attachment style.
#
But anyway, it had to be explored.
#
I had to not brush these feelings aside.
#
But yeah, I wanted to have my own space.
#
I wanted to live alone.
#
I wanted to not have domestic sort of issues like who's going to do the dishes
#
and how do we manage the house, become part of romance.
#
Our relationship is not working.
#
And we're saying that some of the issues because of how we run this house,
#
that just didn't make sense to me.
#
If we have emotionally, we're not connecting,
#
then how can we add this to the variable?
#
Let's live apart and see if we can have a relationship then.
#
So I had all of these thoughts and questions and I just felt like I wasn't ready.
#
So at the time, these thoughts made sense to me,
#
but having now lived two years beyond that decision,
#
I'm also like, what else are the deeper currents there?
#
Is there an avoidance streak?
#
Is that a fear of commitment?
#
Is there a genuine love of solitude that maybe if the culture is normed in default
#
to couple them, I don't think I don't sense a fundamental lack at times.
#
You know, it's because I've been like, we're so told that
#
you have to end up settling down is occurs in pairs.
#
It's never just you living alone, being a crone.
#
But I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
#
I think more role models of women living alone,
#
men living alone would be great.
#
I think while it's interesting, like you said,
#
that both of you came at it from different directions,
#
I still think that is not surprising because I think that that's like,
#
I'm struck by this phrase that you use when you were talking about when you were 16,
#
where you said that you're groomed to be the best possible mate.
#
That's a lens through which you're looking at everything.
#
And that's almost a heartbreaking lens.
#
And I don't think many, many guys would really get that, you know,
#
because the guys are just focused on being the best possible guy.
#
You know, you're not, there's no other person in the equation.
#
You want to be the best dude you can be.
#
And of course you have your own kinds of anxieties
#
or wanting to fit in and be the coolest guy or whatever.
#
But you almost feel entitled to eventually finding partnership
#
and companionship and all of that.
#
And if you're alone, you're chilled with being alone.
#
And can you double click a bit more on what that weight of expectation does?
#
Because it seems that then for the longest time,
#
you and women in general are evaluating themselves through their desirability as mates.
#
Yeah, the first thing to note is that it's not conscious.
#
We're not at the age of 14, 15, 16, realizing that,
#
oh, they are telling me to do these things
#
because these people believe that it will make me the best adult.
#
No, it's just sold as best practices from how to live life.
#
So you're just, and what that gaze is essentially,
#
you're internalizing the, you know, patriarchal male gaze
#
about what it means to be a woman.
#
And so you're becoming that person.
#
And then this authentic self-becoming only happens,
#
like we spoke about earlier, towards your late 20s.
#
So I think it's a rite of passage that everybody outgrows their conditioning.
#
Also, I want to just disagree.
#
Maybe I think men go through it too, but again, it's not conscious to them.
#
And they think that they are benefiting.
#
And in many ways, materially, they are benefiting.
#
But I think psychologically, for example, the flip side for them
#
is a boy who's not good at whatever will make him have a good career.
#
He's not allowed to be feminine.
#
He's not allowed to be emotionally expressive, like dancing, for example,
#
skills that are discouraged just because you're a boy.
#
Both genders aren't allowed to be their full, whole androgynous selves.
#
You're being socialized into what the culture thinks is male
#
and what the culture thinks is female.
#
I just don't know that men are, men ever suffer enough to question
#
that it was good or bad for them.
#
Like I've suffered enough as a result of that.
#
And that's when it's only when you've had enough bad experiences that you're like, wait,
#
you know, I don't know if this is for me.
#
And you start going on your journey to find yourself.
#
Whereas if you're continuously being rewarded by the system externally
#
for you shaping yourself into that, you never need to introspect.
#
So maybe that's where the difference comes in.
#
Do you have anything to say on this as the resident male representative?
#
Yeah, because I'm doing the podcast.
#
I don't know if it's coming from a sense of desire, like the way you phrased it.
#
But when, especially when you, when you are consciously dating,
#
when, you know, like there was a phase of life when I was not interested in it,
#
but there's a phase of life when you are, let's say out in the dating market.
#
I actually don't like the word market in this context, but still I use it a lot.
#
But let's say when you are in the dating market, then of course you're conscious.
#
And then you start sometimes consciously, unconsciously.
#
You are trying to be a certain person given the world that we live in where,
#
in initial settings, you know, this idea of this whole self and the,
#
whatever we were discussing, complexity that doesn't come out.
#
So whatever the initial check marks are of who could be an interesting person to go out with,
#
be it on Instagram, be it on an apps, et cetera.
#
You do try to embody some of those characteristics.
#
Like personally for me, like I wrote about it in the essay,
#
but something so obvious, but it still hits you when it hits you.
#
That when I went through my fat loss, like, you know, I did my 20 kilo fat loss journey in pandemic.
#
First time I left house, you know, when lockdowns open, go to one of my go-to cafes, sit and like,
#
it has never happened with me that like a woman at a random moment will hit on me,
#
just trying to strike a conversation.
#
And I was totally blown away that, oh, so like, like this is what happens if,
#
you know, your size goes from L to S, right?
#
And again, not that anyone was living in a delusion about how much attraction matters.
#
And, you know, like we know, but it just becomes more real that your own sense,
#
like, you know, what just happened.
#
So in that sense, and when it, that bit happens to you, then of course you,
#
and then when you are in the dating market and there are points when you're figuring out,
#
okay, why does this person I'm interested in not interested in me, the classic question,
#
then you go through your checklist that, okay, like, is there not checklist,
#
but what are the markers of potentially good mates that I might not have?
#
Which might, like, you know, you're doing this weird thing about decoding,
#
where you're going in all sorts of directions, sitting with your friends,
#
trying to figure out kya ho raha hai.
#
When the reason could be something totally else that you're not connected with.
#
That is the phase where, like, I have done this analysis, evaluation.
#
I think it's also because the internalized,
#
the female guess can only be internalized by men to evaluate themselves critically
#
and with like that self-denial when there's a female gaze,
#
which has only come up in the last with the internet last 10 years or so,
#
because otherwise all media has been shaped by the men in power making it.
#
But there is, I think, around the time that Kareena Kapoor and size zero became a phenomenon
#
was Darde Disco and Shah Rukh Khan with the six pack abs.
#
And I know that some of the people that I've dated and my male friends have body image issues.
#
I don't think, nobody's absolved from the objectification that happens from images
#
that are being shown on screen.
#
And like that sort of axe effect kind of female sexualization that
#
there is a reversal of that too that's happening,
#
like when men are also sexualized and objectified.
#
But I just like, yeah, I feel like this course needs to evolve
#
beyond men are not affected by patriarchy.
#
They are if they're introspecting and thinking about it.
#
Like, and yeah, you're not allowed to cry,
#
you're not allowed to be emotionally expressive.
#
But there are like a lot of the signals of this.
#
For men with body image issues, I would just say that losing weight is hard.
#
They get the sizes just right.
#
As I was saying, if you go there for every size,
#
like for Excel, you'll have a regular fit, a skinny fit, a loose fit and oversize fit.
#
The last two of those are awesome.
#
So forget dating, Embrace H&M.
#
I wish, I wish, I wish.
#
I will say though that I think looks and personality both matter in case of men.
#
That thing about the entitlement in the this thing.
#
Yes, it's not as easy as we might make it out to be.
#
And women definitely like that neurosis can really eat you up and consume you.
#
But like, I think, yeah, if you're even if you're say an ugly poor man,
#
you're probably better than an ugly poor woman.
#
Not better, better off.
#
I was reading the work of David Buss.
#
He's written this great book called the Evolution of Love.
#
I've heard him on articles and podcasts.
#
So they're like, again, like, you know, it just helps to understand
#
what evolutionary reasons are affecting our behavior in dating context.
#
Like he says that it's not like both men and women prioritize physical attraction,
#
but men do it more because from an evolution standpoint,
#
it's a sign of, again, evolution is saying it.
#
I'm not saying that it's a sign of good health, fertility and for women.
#
And so that increases the chance of a healthy offspring for women.
#
They are more selective and in terms of mating preferences
#
and prioritize status and resources because the idea is that my child will get better care.
#
So just it's not that they don't care.
#
It's just a degree with which men care about physical attraction is more than
#
I think another interesting stat I heard was apparently the age group that each gender
#
prefers when they're looking out for mates.
#
When women are looking for a mate, they're looking for plus minus two years of their age,
#
And when men are looking at the dating market,
#
no matter what their age is, it's always 18 to 25 or like this younger,
#
much younger women is also okay with them.
#
Yeah, that increases with age.
#
Like there's an age gap, like I'm forgetting papers or studies,
#
but like for men, it changes.
#
Like, especially as you get older, there's a like data shows that.
#
I think half your age plus seven is supposed to be the acceptable thing for men, ideally.
#
What does it mean for like a 40 year old?
#
No, but you know, here's the interesting thing that half your age plus seven.
#
And obviously gets bigger as you grow older.
#
No, but here's the thing.
#
So the thing is that the way we are wired because of evolution
#
is that what is at a premium for women, what is really beauty and youth,
#
because that shows your evolutionary fitness.
#
So you will get attracted to that kind of person because they will have good kids
#
and they will look after the kid and everything is much more likely
#
at a time where lifespans are like average 40 or even much less
#
when we evolved in prehistoric times.
#
While for men, it is status.
#
And that actually means that fundamentally the game is skewed
#
because men, as they get older, they can get more and more status,
#
but women cannot really most of the time, you know, get more and more beautiful.
#
So it, but I mean, I'm not stating this again as a normative thing
#
or making my personal judgment.
#
I'm just saying that this is hardwiring that we must fight.
#
No, I feel it like I feel like all things that I fought
#
and like told my mom, don't push me to it.
#
I'm like now 31 and I am having been deeply obsessed with my body and how I look.
#
I can spot every difference in my face and in my body versus how I look.
#
I felt like I'm maturing in sort of self-love and all.
#
It's gone so far, but there is a window for self-hatred that remains that, you know, like
#
I can see the blemishes that didn't exist before.
#
I can see how I look without makeup.
#
I know the accessories I need.
#
I know why Ole is going to have an effect on me soon, you know,
#
stop the seven signs of aging and all of that.
#
And if I've sort of come to accept that my desirability,
#
which I earned in my teenage years and now I'm going to prolong it.
#
I'm going to spend money on it.
#
It's a market for a reason.
#
Women, their social status, their self-worth being tied to how desirable they are.
#
It's not easy to get over.
#
Is attractiveness like a bit of a drug in that sense?
#
Like Samarth, when you mentioned that, you know, in your piece,
#
it's very cute that this girl hits on you and you're so surprised.
#
I can imagine that how and you've of course been a fitness freak ever since.
#
And one can understand the incentives are perfect.
#
But, you know, even for you, when you said you turned 2021,
#
you got feminized by your cousin, as it were,
#
and started getting common surate attention,
#
which I thought was an excellent use of phrases today.
#
Yeah, man, it's totally rock and roll.
#
Perhaps the first time the phrase has been used in that context.
#
So then I wonder if number one,
#
it becomes like a bit of a drug that you crave more and more of it
#
because of the awesome validation that you get.
#
And then number two, can it be a little bit of a trap
#
that you let that become the parts of your personality
#
that you work hardest on?
#
Especially if you're a performative person,
#
which I have repeatedly proclaimed myself to be.
#
If you enjoy being in a group, dropping phrases,
#
being attractive, I think, is a huge part of that social capital.
#
Because, like, I can, you know, you enter a room,
#
you can see people's eyes turn.
#
Like, have you seen Modern Family?
#
Both of you haven't seen Modern Family.
#
I also haven't seen Friends, by the way.
#
You dropped some reference.
#
We will need to talk about all this.
#
I have seen it and not liked it.
#
My relationship with Friends is like his relationship with Tamasha.
#
In Modern Family, there is Sophia Vergara,
#
the actress who is, you know, gifted beyond measure,
#
not just in talent, but in terms of her features
#
and her proportions and everything.
#
She's got that hourglass shape and everything.
#
She's not manic pixie about her looks either, right?
#
So she says in some episodes she's, like, not noticed
#
and then she opens up about how, you know,
#
if I'm entering a room and everybody's not turning around
#
and looking at me, I know, I feel like I failed.
#
And especially, like, if you have, like, a main character syndrome,
#
it's part of the tools you use, you know, to be good at what you do.
#
The market knows and preys on this.
#
Here's another question.
#
I did an episode recently with Eve Fairbanks,
#
who's an American journalist who wrote a great book on South Africa.
#
But she spent her early years before she went to South Africa
#
to write a book in Washington, D.C., in the press corps there.
#
And she wrote this beautiful piece I'll send to you guys
#
and I'll link from the show notes, where she wrote this piece
#
about how whenever she would do something great
#
or say interesting things at a conference
#
or write a great piece, and men would speak to her
#
huh, these men, you know, are interested in me for my intellect
#
and whatever, and they would spend time
#
and they would maybe go out for a coffee
#
and she would think that I am being respected and all that.
#
But inevitably, it would always come down to the same damn thing,
#
that the male gaze and that they want to sleep with her
#
and et cetera, et cetera.
#
And that made her question her own sense of self-worth,
#
that boss, this is not the kind of attention I want.
#
I would like to be admired for my intellect
#
and my amazing journalism
#
and she is an amazing journalist and not this shit, right?
#
And is that then somehow an issue with you?
#
Because Samarth and I would have the luxury and the privilege
#
to be just taken for what we are by people
#
and there's nothing else in this, mostly no other baggage, right?
#
But in every woman's case, I would imagine
#
that every time a man speaks to her,
#
there is that extremely great possibility in India
#
that you just don't know what the reasons are
#
and that can make you wonder, firstly,
#
what is so good and attractive about you
#
which you should then therefore try to enhance
#
and it could also make you doubt yourself.
#
So what has your sense been like that in all interactions with me?
#
Very fraught area because there's a lot of like,
#
I was, the first word that came to mind is trust issues.
#
This does, like, it comes in different ways.
#
I know a girlfriend who had this dichotomy
#
that I'm very pretty, so if I overplay my prettiness,
#
people will think I'm dumb, but I'm also very smart,
#
so I want people to notice me for that.
#
And I was like, don't play to the binary,
#
just be yourself and let people perceive you, however,
#
because it's not just, of course,
#
it's a lot of men who approach you with whatever intentions,
#
but it could happen even in your family, right?
#
Like, you don't want to do anything but be yourself
#
because then that affects your way to move around the world.
#
So the only thing you can do is be yourself
#
and let whoever it is deal with it in whatever ways.
#
And how it does happen is like, I think the word,
#
for my personal, the word I get a lot from men is intimidating,
#
which I'm not trying to be consciously,
#
but it turns out that if I'm not like smiling
#
and being cute all the time,
#
and I can have a pretty deadpan face,
#
I'm not constantly smiling.
#
You're a resting deadpan face.
#
You're a resting bitch face.
#
No, you're a resting deadpan face.
#
I don't know, maybe, I mean, depends on the company also,
#
but yeah, like, people deal with it in different ways.
#
Men can sexualize and objectify you.
#
They can call, they can misinterpret your intelligence
#
as arrogance, intimidation, you know,
#
she thinks she's eight, what do you think?
#
Like, especially if you don't give them attention,
#
they may call you, they may, you know,
#
the flip side of their affection or desire for you
#
is that if you don't reciprocate, they turn the opposite.
#
So they'll, you know, shun you,
#
you know, make you feel like shit for not reciprocating.
#
And it's weird because like,
#
a lot of these men are older than you,
#
especially if you're encountering them in like,
#
semi workplace slash workplace related.
#
Like, and almost anybody today,
#
if you're meeting them for the first or second time,
#
Like, you could be a professional,
#
like we want to keep it respectful, professional, formal,
#
and then they say something off.
#
Like, it's happened to me very recently also,
#
like someone that I had just met
#
said something quite off about my appearance.
#
And I was like, you should not feel comfortable enough
#
And then they also said, I really admire your,
#
like, it's, I don't think men know how to talk to women sometimes.
#
I don't think they are very good at dealing with a woman
#
who's not slotting their sort of limited binaries
#
or, you know, few categories that women are allowed to be.
#
So if she's smart and funny and good looking,
#
then what do I really, I mean,
#
you just treat her as a whole human being,
#
you don't try to like impose any sort of your projection
#
And then she's navigating that,
#
trying to not upset you, keep the relationship.
#
There's a lot of that that has gone on.
#
Also, like I've seen, like from the, in other contexts, right?
#
Like the trust issues in general in Indian society,
#
like if, like, probabilistically if you talk about it,
#
like the base rate of a random,
#
or like in context, a man coming to a woman and talking,
#
what is the probability that, you know,
#
they are in like the experience of the woman that I hear
#
that is coming with what intent.
#
It just feels like in India,
#
the higher probability is that they're coming to,
#
you know, like not talking about work,
#
but there's some other agenda, let's say.
#
Now that, it feels, there's such a low,
#
it feels like in today's, like in our circles,
#
the trust issues are so low that I've been on the other side
#
where like as a journalist,
#
like I remember being at a conference
#
and there was this woman said something really interesting
#
and I was in my reporter mode and like she left
#
and I just went and asked her a question about
#
that you said something really interesting
#
or, you know, can I follow up on it?
#
That conversation happened
#
and I could just immediately see
#
that there was a certain setback about like,
#
why is this guy and quote unquote on paper,
#
it was not something very highly credential,
#
let's say an institution that she worked for,
#
but I just found it so interesting.
#
So I went and I could immediately see that
#
there is some tension that this person has.
#
So then what do you do at that point?
#
So I'm like, I figured.
#
So I also like wanted to exit.
#
So I just dropped my card and said like,
#
if you can talk, then here's my card.
#
Then actually an hour later,
#
like she texted me back saying that,
#
of course, we didn't talk about this dynamic,
#
but she said, sorry, I had to just leave.
#
I couldn't talk to you at that point,
#
but I just Googled you, like I've seen your work.
#
So then she gave me the details,
#
but you see this happening.
#
My understanding is just that baseline trust issues
#
For good reason, especially,
#
I think if you are somewhat like one recent thing
#
that I articulated for myself was,
#
and the internet has also caught on,
#
it's like you beware of the nice guys.
#
I was at a party recently
#
and a friend introduced me to his friend.
#
He's like, I think you guys will get along.
#
I mean, that's just a casual thing to say.
#
I don't know how that guy took it,
#
but like I think he took it upon himself that,
#
oh, he thinks we'll get along.
#
That means I must charm this woman
#
over the course of the night.
#
And every like 15, 20 minutes,
#
he'd be like, we're going to get a drink.
#
I'd be like, no, I'm not drinking.
#
I really don't want one.
#
He's like, come on, it's Friday night.
#
I'm like, dude, we're not 18 anymore.
#
I don't really know you.
#
At some point, but he didn't stop.
#
He seemed to be fairly drunk himself.
#
even though like the third time he asked me,
#
he's like, I'm getting you one.
#
Not taking no for an answer.
#
And while doing all this,
#
he just also asked me like,
#
I'm just checking up on you.
#
You're just sitting down.
#
I'm like, I'm just being myself.
#
And you have taken up this role
#
to be like the charmer of the night or whatever.
#
And you're, I'm more okay than you are.
#
Stop asking me if I'm okay, you know?
#
And like, just the ingratiating personality
#
that I think that's where this distrust comes from, right?
#
Like oftentimes people, men who think that,
#
oh, I'm going to be nice to her.
#
And like, I don't want it.
#
I just simply don't want it.
#
You may be very interesting.
#
And I just, I don't want the attention.
#
Yeah, that's Kate Winslet
#
in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Man you've seen.
#
Like, I don't, she has it very nice in the train code.
#
I don't want nice talking
#
about the nice guys and girls in some ways.
#
But actually I want to ask you a question
#
because there is, I see a tension in modern dating
#
where again, again, first the caveat,
#
like any generalizations are very hard.
#
So we are speaking from personal experiences.
#
A lot of women around me and men, you know,
#
we have this notion that dating apps suck.
#
We want to go back to the old traditional ideas of romance.
#
You know, we meet at a coffee shop or a bookshop or office
#
and then something happens.
#
So I've seen women on internet and in person saying,
#
you know, men don't ask out any, ask us out anymore
#
in a traditional sense.
#
So what is happening, you know, when I'm forgetting that.
#
So when I talk to men and myself included,
#
we are actually, you're quite stuck that,
#
what actually is the norm today?
#
Like, what exactly is the protocol in our society?
#
And like, I go through this, like you're talking,
#
you're talking about neurosis.
#
But like the neurosis is that you seem like,
#
you see someone, you find them attractive
#
and then you're thinking, should I go?
#
People say that, no, you have to be out there.
#
You have to talk to people, strike a conversation.
#
Maybe it goes somewhere.
#
So you're in that zone.
#
But you see a smart, independent woman working,
#
Then you say, isn't people like me exactly the problem?
#
That, you know, women have their personal space
#
in a physical setting, but no, you are a man.
#
You'll go interrupt her space and, you know,
#
So then people like me and I know so many friends
#
who go through this neurosis.
#
Then we say, no, no, no, let's err on the side of caution
#
and we don't do anything.
#
I think from what you are describing,
#
I feel like self-reflection is a sure part
#
to being both a good man and an alone man.
#
So when I, you know, I tell this to my women friends.
#
So like their stories that they say,
#
this is exactly the reason you'll always be single.
#
Because if you go into this, you know,
#
analysis zone while in the moment,
#
so this is, you know, what will happen.
#
And my understanding after watching like American cinema,
#
like especially older ones,
#
I just feel the way you see that on screen
#
about dating, not just like relationship
#
is that you see characters actually,
#
you know, going up, asking in a certain way.
#
It's not like creepy or like there's an art to it.
#
There's a charm to it, which I don't have.
#
Like, you know, like what does it mean
#
to start a conversation with people?
#
And then I actually see like other like smart men
#
who are actually able to do it very well.
#
So it's also a skill issue.
#
But I'm just laying down that these kind of neuroses,
#
at least some men go through.
#
Bunch of things you said that can, should be double clicked on.
#
One is like, yeah, men are waiting instructions.
#
Like so much as like male desire is that like demonized, right?
#
Like there is no, because there seems to be,
#
I don't know whose fault it is,
#
but no sort of too healthy way of expressing it.
#
Like if it can be perceived as creepy too much,
#
And then when they repress it entirely,
#
it comes out in violent ways.
#
So sort of men having a healthy relationship
#
with their own sexuality and desire
#
is another sort of modern issue.
#
And like the whole Aziz Ansari controversy,
#
like did he, did she, was she leaning into it?
#
I think it's so specific to the individual skill
#
of like how you do it at least.
#
How you do it really matters basically.
#
I'm open to being interrupted,
#
provided the interruption is better than what I'm doing.
#
And if you were like, I would love nothing more
#
than for a guy to charm me.
#
I'm severely lacking that energy.
#
I read a really good tweet about this, a woman,
#
like again in the West, you were saying that actually
#
you should come and ask,
#
but there's a way to do it and always give an out.
#
That if I don't want to engage, it should be easy.
#
Don't make it uncomfortable for me to exit the situation.
#
Approaching someone and giving them an out.
#
What are your learnings from this?
#
See, this is a very trial and error thing, right?
#
No, no, no, no, I'm not blushing.
#
No, let's just say that I have not been very successful at it.
#
Why? What has happened?
#
See, again, giving an out because again,
#
this is a personality type that I are like,
#
you know, like you're always making a choice
#
that you take a slight risk.
#
But in a very complete stranger scenario,
#
like I earn the side of whom I was like,
#
men like me are the ones who will, you know,
#
invade on your space and I actually don't know.
#
So I'm saying it's a skill issue.
#
At the same party that I spoke of,
#
there was a guy who actually managed
#
to strike up a conversation with me in the most effortless.
#
I think he played his cards right,
#
but it was when I was leaving,
#
he was like, oh, you're leaving already.
#
And I was like, we haven't spoken.
#
And then we had a bit of like very good conversation
#
and I gave him my Instagram
#
and I was like, that's how it's done.
#
You see, like that's like, I hope now
#
I'm waiting for him to like pass me out.
#
I've been baiting also, like putting up stories that may.
#
But I've been poker into this.
#
So, you know, I once wrote the only...
#
So for The Economic Times,
#
I wrote a column on poker for about a year.
#
I think I wrote 42 installments of it.
#
The only column on poker and a mainstream newspaper
#
in the world I've got to report.
#
And the first of my pieces was called The Bookshop Romeo.
#
And the scenario was that a young man enters a bookshop.
#
Let us call him Samarth.
#
Samarth enters a bookshop
#
and he sees a young lady reading a book by an author he likes.
#
So it is a perfect opportunity.
#
And now the question is, should he go and talk to her or not?
#
And the danger is that if he goes and talk to her,
#
A, he could be intruding,
#
which would make him feel bad later,
#
or she could be rude and rebuff him and insult him and etc, etc.
#
But the flip side is that, you know,
#
he could make a friend or he could get a date or etc, etc.
#
And my argument there was using probabilistic theory
#
and pointing out that of course he should go and talk to her
#
because the downside is very low.
#
Even if 99% of the time she tells him to fuck off,
#
the downside is super low because what has he lost?
#
He's, you know, 30 seconds of hurt male ego.
#
Whereas that 1% that he's found his life partner
#
or whatever, the upside is super high.
#
So you should always kind of do it in a probabilistic sense.
#
I have to tell an embarrassing story.
#
You know, I feel comfortable
#
because I know other men also have done this.
#
Because I had a bookshop story.
#
We won't tell anyone except many thousands of people.
#
No, but I am telling you, I'm comfortable
#
because other men come and tell me,
#
they can actually be really smarter than me in multiple ways.
#
They are smarter than you.
#
So they have also done this.
#
Oh wait, so I had like the craziest like a bookshop story.
#
Like I'm in a bookshop.
#
And you know, one of the biggest problems in modern dating,
#
which is these headphones.
#
If you are sitting with headphones on,
#
how do you even start a conversation, right?
#
People have discarded you.
#
So I see there are only two people in the bookshop.
#
I am there and there's this woman.
#
And she's expectedly with the headphones.
#
So I'm like, you know, there's always this moment of tension.
#
Like there's a setup here.
#
But you don't, you know, there's a setup.
#
Like you don't know like, how am I supposed to behave?
#
I came to see the book.
#
But so anyway, so first you ignore.
#
If one of the screenplays has a scene in a bookshop,
#
you know where it got inspired from.
#
So then I'm like, come on, there are headphones too.
#
And I'm like, I came to buy a book.
#
So I just go and not really potentially,
#
but I go to the classic section.
#
Today I have to read something about French existentialism.
#
Come on, let's see the book of works.
#
So I'm going and listening.
#
And of course, like briefly, you'll also just, you know,
#
move around and say, okay.
#
Where is that other person?
#
So then I see, okay, the headphones are off.
#
I'm like, okay, interesting.
#
That takes it one level.
#
But I'm like, how's he going to live this town?
#
So Kamu se aapki nazar hatt gayi.
#
Kamu se aapki nazar hatt gayi.
#
I'm like, I just can't.
#
So then again, but I'm like, okay, no, no, no.
#
And which book of Kamu was it?
#
The stranger by any chance?
#
No, so that I'm in that scene, but then I go back to my books.
#
You know, that scene, how can I do this?
#
So then I turn around and she's nearby.
#
That, you know, actually, I don't know why.
#
She said, I'm actually, she said, what are you looking for?
#
So I'm like, you know, I'm looking for some of these books.
#
You know, then, then she's asked me that, are you from around?
#
I'm like, no, actually, ma toh Pidampura se aaya hoon.
#
Eh, Vasanth Kunj mein bookshop ki.
#
Like you traveled so far for a bookshop.
#
Ne ka, haan matlab, I heard about it.
#
So I, comes once in a while.
#
She looked quite impressed because she's like, I live nearby.
#
Mujhe toh pata bhi nahi tha.
#
Then she's like, actually, I'm looking for a book for my friend.
#
Then, you know, ab ye toh, it's like your day to day kitab recommend karni hai.
#
Toh aapko, you do that.
#
You go through that conversation.
#
Then she also asks me about achha, like how often do you come here?
#
Like, I think in retrospection, all potential science ki baat karte hain.
#
Bro, this is a moment where your friends mentally start calling her bhabhi.
#
This is me in action, right?
#
And I'm like, okay, great.
#
And then I start telling her about two minutes ki, bahut hi sahi kitab hai.
#
This your friend will like.
#
Toh then, toh usne kucha, ab iske baat aap, what are you planning to do?
#
So I'm like, I'm going to get a coffee.
#
So like, do you like coffee?
#
She's like, nah, I'm not a coffee person.
#
I'm a hot chocolate person.
#
And then I'm like, okay.
#
Then I go look at my books.
#
That's the reason I'm a single.
#
You were attracted to her in the first place.
#
Please feel free to judge.
#
I'm telling you the story.
#
Let me finish the story.
#
Please let you after that.
#
And like, the ridiculousness.
#
Matlab abhi toh comedy thi, thodi tragedy ho rahi hai.
#
And then she, you know, goes like, dekhna humne kitab.
#
I didn't actually find something good.
#
And then I was thinking, because again, that moment of tension comes up, right?
#
Like, now what happened?
#
Like, should I go back?
#
Like, when the conversation was happening.
#
Now she's at the bidding counter.
#
So what am I now supposed to do?
#
Should I go and ask, do you want to exchange numbers?
#
Do you want to do Instagram?
#
Then I was like a total fattu.
#
Then I go, you know, she goes away.
#
Then a moment of revelation happened that, what the hell did I just do?
#
What did you say when she said, do you want to exchange numbers?
#
No, she didn't say that.
#
I think that was supposed to be my...
#
Like, I think she gave the hints, but...
#
I didn't pick it at that point.
#
Imagine her thoughts if she's listening to this right now.
#
Then she goes away and then it hits me, like...
#
What the hell did you just do?
#
What were you going to ask for Instagram?
#
In the Priya market, like,
#
Delhi people would be familiar.
#
Then I actually do the rounds.
#
To say that maybe, uh, very creepy leaky.
#
Maybe she's at one of these...
#
She must be sitting in the purge, you know.
#
She said hot chocolate.
#
So then I go and I don't find her.
#
I don't know why I'm telling all of this, but...
#
Every day for the next year, you go there at that time.
#
I'm like, the ridiculousness I can do when I feel...
#
I just made a fool out of myself that I go back to the bookstore.
#
And then I asked the guy because...
#
Like, you know, the woman who came...
#
I heard over the conversation that...
#
The book she wanted for herself wasn't available there.
#
So she said, come and get it tomorrow.
#
Then I too made up some shitty excuse.
#
And I'm not very proud of myself.
#
I became in the Sarthak character.
#
You know, actually, uh...
#
I made up some reason...
#
To basically tell her...
#
That actually, you know, uh...
#
We had talked about some book and I wanted to tell her something.
#
Judgy eyes of the bookseller, as it should be.
#
I said, no sir, we can't give that to her.
#
So I said, okay, I had my visiting card.
#
That, can you take it and, uh...
#
Give it to her, like...
#
The ball is in her court.
#
No, it isn't because...
#
It is in some stranger's court.
#
Stranger's court, yeah.
#
For the next two days, I was in so much guilt because, you know...
#
Earlier, men like me keep crying, you know...
#
Dating expert, attention immillery.
#
You know, no one does anything.
#
So that's what I think neurosis had action.
#
It's very illustrative.
#
I think super enduring...
#
Learning experience for me that men feel shame about fumbling.
#
See, the reason I mentioned, of course, it...
#
In retrospect, very embarrassing.
#
And it's not just one case.
#
I have multiple stories where I have behaved like this.
#
And I know other men who have done this.
#
And that's what I'm saying, that there is this...
#
Intellectually, that you know, like...
#
You go away from probability.
#
Even like, what difference does it make?
#
I have written in my essay that...
#
When you get rejected again and again...
#
Actually, you don't even care once in a while.
#
You got one in your hand and you folded it.
#
This is that kind of situation.
#
Yes, I have done this in Bombay.
#
I mean, are you afraid?
#
Like, actually, why are men...
#
I'm assuming that most men in my situation would do the right thing.
#
Like, again, not right, wrong, but...
#
Like, behave in a different way, but...
#
That's something that...
#
You know, that's a mental block that...
#
Like, I actually don't know, like...
#
Where it comes from, what it does.
#
Like, I have not really gone into...
#
Self-analysis mode of what is happening.
#
In those moments, like...
#
Yeah, but the reason I mention this is that...
#
This is a conflict that I live with.
#
That on one hand, like, I'll always be criticizing...
#
You know, the modern traditional dating apps.
#
Wanting this offline connection.
#
But then you are in this...
#
Decotomy that when a situation arises...
#
Partly because of lack of experience.
#
You know, this whole idea of...
#
Social norms that you have somehow created in your head.
#
That just overpower your day-to-day interactions.
#
That even in the moment where...
#
Actually, you should not be thinking and go with the flow.
#
That this analytical mode starts and you just screw up the situation.
#
So again, I'm not saying it would have led to anywhere, but...
#
No, but I also think that, you know, with this...
#
Actually, your beautiful story...
#
Which should be a teachable lesson in all textbooks across the country.
#
If they are teaching male-female interactions.
#
Highlights two things about men.
#
Like, one of my co-hosts for my YouTube show, Ajay Shah, once told me...
#
The biggest problem in India is men don't know how to talk to women.
#
Which this illustrates.
#
But I think what's happening here is...
#
You're swinging between the two extremes here.
#
Which Indian men do as one is...
#
You have no clue how to talk to women and it is such a scary thing.
#
I think Aris Mudok once said that...
#
Love is a terrifying realization that people other than you are real.
#
And while this is not love, it is, you know...
#
It's a real situation and your mental hero is completely gone.
#
So number one, you are just unable to speak to her and approach to her and be normal with her.
#
Which is the headline word, be normal.
#
And number two, when you do decide to do something...
#
You're being super creepy and toxic about it.
#
Like, you know, going through the marketplace and asking for her number.
#
Like, what are we going to do with her number? Call her, so...
#
No, no, that's not exactly...
#
And I think this is a great tragedy.
#
That both of these are sort of behaviors outside the normal bound.
#
And I completely agree with Ajay.
#
Like, even I went to a boys' school in the 80s and all of that.
#
I had no idea how to talk to women, you know.
#
It's something that you kind of discover through life.
#
And there's this beautiful line from your post which I want to ask Sanjana about.
#
Where you quoted some anonymous commentator on Reddit and you said...
#
For men, dating is like dying of thirst in the desert, not a drop of water in sight.
#
For women, it's like dying of thirst in the ocean.
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Water is everywhere, but it's mostly toxic and full of salt.
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Yeah, and now you mentioned the trust issues and, you know, the problems with the male gaze.
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And I wonder then that if you ever found yourself without realizing it,
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just unconsciously lowering your bar.
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Yeah, I think dangerously so.
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I think to everything that Samat said before I answered that,
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I think it's like, it hit the nerve of what the issue is, right?
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Maybe it's, in this case, talking to a woman who's indicated she wants to talk to you.
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But like, just this fundamental relationship between the male and female.
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Swinging between the polarities of,
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I must be the good boy and therefore extremely careful.
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And the bad boy of obsessively doing whatever it takes to get her number.
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I have to make it up now.
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I think the line is when you stop seeing this woman as like the scary object
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and you're like, how would you speak to a friend in a bookshop,
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a new friend that you want to make?
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It's not like you wouldn't be nervous.
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You would still be trying to be your interesting best self.
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But the mythology around it, I think, would fall.
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And I think friendship could be like the best entryway between both genders.
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Actually, before we come to the read comment, just two points.
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This is me being self-defensive.
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That I would, you know, the moment of self-defense comes where I would not have
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done that creepy thing of getting the number and doing anything with it.
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It's just the instinctive reaction.
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But second, I have another observed a pattern and you confirm if that happens.
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With so many, like I have a whole bunch of like women friends.
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And when I make new friendships, I've somehow seen that
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either in the first conversation or the second conversation,
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if they are in a relationship, you just know it.
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They will be in some context.
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They will drop that, you know, my partner said this.
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Or, you know, my husband said this something.
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And these are all very unconscious things.
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But the moment that happens, you relax.
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You relax like, it's like, it's like, like I think somehow
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whether she has done it consciously or not.
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But I've seen repeatedly this happens.
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And then it's like, okay, not that you were having some other agenda.
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But somehow with that angle coming in, you are at ease.
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And then I notice a pattern that actually most of my women friends
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are coupled or are in relationships.
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I'm just thinking about this from a completely different way.
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I don't know if I have like what you meant.
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But like, I'm just thinking about how like so much of monogamy is about exclusivity.
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And so the moment you're in a relationship, you're like, oh my God, I'm in a relationship.
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I shouldn't have chemistry with someone new.
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I should flirt with anyone.
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I shouldn't be interesting to other people.
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God for sake that, you know, sparks some attraction between us.
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So I think that's something I don't really appreciate about coupledom.
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Like I said, I strive to be the most interesting person wherever I go
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because I enjoy, you know, being stimulating and being entertaining to the people around me.
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And if that is going to, I felt like a relationship could have been restricting in that sense.
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Like, oh, I'm not supposed to be attractive to other people now.
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I don't know if that's toxic.
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I mean, you are who you are.
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I just want to be an individual first and then like that person is not an accessory,
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but it is one part of my life, not the center of my life.
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So I don't know if women and men also feel like they need to declare that in a relationship
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lest the relationship is jeopardized by external attention.
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That's why I always wonder because it never doesn't never feel conscious.
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It just comes up and it happens so repeatedly that I wonder if it's a unconscious.
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But it's interesting that you felt like you could let your guard down after that.
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That's counterintuitive to me.
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I'll tell you, like, it's as simple as that, that I think it's more of a personality change
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that happens that, you know, I remember when this leads into complicated territories of gender.
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Like, I remember when MeToo broke in 2018, we were in office setting.
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So many men started saying, you know, how do we even talk to our women colleagues?
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Because even if we talk, they will make a case.
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Then I read this amazing piece on Medium where this woman wrote that, look,
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all of the men who are asking this question, they should just do one thing.
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Every time you're talking to a woman, close your eyes and imagine you're talking to Dwayne Johnson.
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That is what you should think.
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The way you would talk to that guy, talk to that woman, life will be easy.
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Because you just are talking to a bro, though.
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No, the essence was that why do you have to attribute?
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Like, why can't you just have a conversation like a normal person and don't have any ambiguity?
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So, again, for myself, I've seen the moment this, like, again, for the lack of a word,
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clarity happens that there is no any scope of ambiguity goes away.
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And I actually become my more authentic self in that conversation.
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And then that has led to so many good friendships from that point on.
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So again, again, I just want to clarify.
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It's not like a constructed, you know, like a pattern that I'm following.
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It's just that I've seen that so many times that now I am.
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Now I see that there is something going on here about gender norms
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that has made me a bit conscious about what is the right way to be, how to exist.
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And then that defines my behavior.
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It's almost as if, you know, in the film when Harry met Sally,
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Billy Crystal is constantly arguing that every male-female relationship
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has that inherent tension within it and there's no way past it and all that.
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So do you think that that's part of the case that, you know,
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the reason you are so much at ease when she tells you that she has a partner
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is that that tension dissolves?
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You know, you finally be just another person.
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You can finally be just another person.
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As I also said in the beginning, again, this is just a personality type.
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It does whatever to me and my personal life that I err on the side of caution, right?
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Like one of my actually, you know, Harry met Sally was inspired partly from Annie Hall.
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There is a people have written about it.
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Have you seen Annie Hall?
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But like that's one of my favorite movies.
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I think it told me so much like, I'll just talk about one scene from Annie Hall,
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which I think captures, like beautifully captures on film what is happening.
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So when Woody Allen and Dinah Keaton meet for the first time,
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you know, they're on a tennis court.
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And then like Dinah Keaton is like fumbling, like what should I do?
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So all kinds of weird things happen.
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And in that chaotic moment, they say, let's try and I will drop you.
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The drop happens and like they're at their house.
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And then now that tension moment second, like what happens now?
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Should Woody Allen go up to her house or not?
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And then that moment gets resolved.
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And now they're in the house and you know, they're looking around and talking about things.
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Then they go out in the balcony.
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They're having a drink.
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And then there's this amazing scene where both of them start talking.
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And they're like talking like mad random stuff,
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really pretentious stuff about art and photography, something like.
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They're saying something.
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And captions in the subtitles, they're both are talking about,
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actually what's going on in both their minds.
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And like both are basically navigating this tension.
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So that when that came up and I was like, okay, you know, like,
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like you generally don't know right about until you like really read a lot of literature or
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movies like this that whatever, what are you talking?
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But what is going behind your head?
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What is the dichotomy there?
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So that scene just told me that, okay, maybe some kind of like, you know,
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like conversation over there, but there's some other connotation mind.
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I read that scene completely differently.
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That scene is I think about when people are flirting with each other,
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they're trying very hard to be intellectual and act as if they're not flirting.
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Like, oh, I'm into the same poetry.
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I like, oh, that that's so intelligent and so smart.
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But actually they're like, oh, I wonder what she looks like naked.
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To me, that's enduring.
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It's a commentary on how flirting and chemistry feels like we're like
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really trying to impress and be interesting to each other
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while secretly thinking about how much you want them.
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So it's like status signaling is happening.
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But not in a not in a like ulterior motive.
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These are the real intentions.
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It's just like how chemistry feels.
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So let me, let me read out an extract.
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Glenn Laurie, he's this great American scholar.
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You might have heard of him, African-American guy.
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I think a tenured professor at Harvard at 33 or whatever.
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Recently wrote his memoir and he's talking about a date that he went on when he was young.
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And he says, over drinks, we do discuss politics and our career.
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And as we talk, I'm also working out a game theory puzzle in my mind.
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I desperately want to get this woman up to my hotel room.
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I hypothesize that she also wants to come up to my hotel room,
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but she does not want to appear cheap or overeager.
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If I proposition her too early to directly,
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she'll believe I think she is cheap and over eager.
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And she'll say no on general principles.
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My solution to the problem is to not state, is not to state my intent outright,
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but to reveal it progressively in such a way that I can plausibly disavow my true intent
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at any point without receiving an explicit rejection.
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So long as there is no rejection, the revelation of intent can progress.
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Once I cross a certain threshold in this progressive revelation of intent without receiving a no,
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I can make the proposition explicit with a sufficient degree of confidence that I'll
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This is very much a commensurate kind of person.
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Now his words continue.
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So a dance begins in which I advance and retreat.
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We talk about politics.
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I answer her questions and ask some in response.
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I ask about her professors at Smith, about her classes,
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slowly getting a little more personal.
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I make a joke that is maybe a little serious.
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I ask about her romantic partners and I watch her eyes.
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Is she avoiding eye contact?
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That's the last stop before no.
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But she is holding eye contact.
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She is smiling and laughing.
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I deploy a double entendre and she smiles again and I ask her what's so funny.
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I note that I am advancing more than I am retreating.
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I let her catch me looking at her legs and she does not try to cover herself up.
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At some point, I believe the threshold has been crossed.
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I don't really know if it has, but I decide that even if I get a no,
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it's okay because I find that I really do like Pamela.
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The worst case scenario is that I've made a new friend.
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So I suggest that we continue the conversation up in my room and she says yes.
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When we enter the room, she excuses herself to the bathroom and takes her purse with her.
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I sit and wait and wonder what's taking her so long.
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Finally, she emerges wearing nothing but a bra and a slip with no panties.
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In working through the many permutations of the seduction problem,
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I had not considered the scenario in which the intent to seduce was mutual.
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I came across it because a guy called Rob Henderson posted it,
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the same guy who coined the term luxury beliefs.
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My question here is that what seems both funny and tragic during this whole dance of seduction
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is that both people are talking about things they don't really want to talk about
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and they just have one thing on their mind and it becomes this very complicated thing.
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I think most dates will not necessarily end in a way that the intent to seduce is mutual as it is
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but in both heads, there are different scenarios playing out and different,
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you know, so for the guy, you know, I'm sure when you were talking to that girl in the bookshop,
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beyond the bookshops is a layer of other thinking that is going on,
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except you're unable to act on it.
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The girl also must have been thinking stuff and even in this case,
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Pamela, as it were, the girl he was dating,
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there's a drama going through her head also that why doesn't he fucking invite me to his room or
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whatever the case is. So I'd like to know about, you know, how like in your experiences,
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how has this dance evolved for both of you because I guess when you first started dating,
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it's a particular kind of dynamic and then you wisen up and then perhaps you want different
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things as well and I'm sure it is like completely and obviously different for each of you.
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So how does it really play out?
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I have to say one thing that again is not the best thing.
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No one gets to our seven, just continue.
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I think it's first to recognize that a lot of Indian men just don't know how to flirt.
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we're just not good at it. So now in the tech world, what is happening, like I recently read,
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maybe globally, I don't know how much problem, but now AI is actually trying to say that the
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main problem is that men don't know how to talk to women. So now AI is going to engineer those
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conversations to fill in for the charm. If the problem is, no, no, it's like an article,
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you can read it. That is the problem that men don't know how to talk to women. So the AI chat
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pod can actually, you know, help you have those conversations so that on the apps, that whole
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seduction process that happens on texts, how to present yourself can be mediated by the bot.
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So when I read that, then I didn't know what, like it felt very dystopian that like what is
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happening. But also told me that, I would not do, but you know, see where I'm trying to go here,
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that this whole thing about ki humse toh hoga nahi toh hum seekhenge bhi nahi. And let the bot do
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this whole tension thing.
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So I just brought it up to say that the dance of seduction is being automated.
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Automated and it's going in like real weird direction rather than like personally for me,
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I think there is a, it's not really a mathematical game often about dating and relationships,
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because see one bad experience, actually, it's not something that you can always easily ignore,
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especially if it's something that the dance has happened for, let's say, weeks or months.
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You know, like there is always this assumption that, oh, I've met someone on the app or met
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someone and you're going through that zone. It's not very easy to let that experience,
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like you can just forget it because you know, there are so many people out there.
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If you catch feelings, you catch feelings.
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You catch feelings and you see where I'm going, that it's not always like a mathematical thing,
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ki ekse reject ho gaye toh kya hua, dusre pe chale jao.
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It's not a numbers game.
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Yeah, because we're not commodities. So I think like you have some of these foolish
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experiences where in retrospect you are like, like what the hell did you just do?
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But I think a lot of that also comes from that when actually you try, sometimes things go well,
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sometimes they don't go well. And when they don't go well, and then the kind of impact it has on
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you is not simply about a rejection. It does something more to you. And I think that then
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shapes how you will be in other situations. Can you say this in concrete terms and make it real?
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Tell us when you felt bad, basically.
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Okay. I'll find a way to be a little bit more specific. So I think one of the hardest
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questions is really like, are we friends or are we more? And forget this is not a stranger
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meeting. This is someone that you know. And how do you know it? That you're getting along well,
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you're talking, you have great time when you're together. So like, what is this? You know,
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that's a question that you wonder. Because you don't want to spoil the friendship.
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So if you make like a move.
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Isn't the answer to this something that comes with the initiation of physical contact?
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Like if you kiss your more than friends, if you don't, you're not there yet.
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And to know whether to initiate, you want to have a sense of how they feel.
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It's a great way to articulate the turning point between are we just friends or?
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Yeah. So I'm saying, see, there are so many variables there, right? Like
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now you have that feeling that are we friends or are we more?
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How do you go from this to that? Like the process of knowing, right? Like you either
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simplest thing people say is just ask.
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But there's like we said, skill to asking.
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Skill to ask, right? And then you figure out, okay, what is the most polite way to ask?
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You have to drop hints.
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Because that also sets the stage.
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Because the person on the other end is not set in stone.
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They may not be in the space, but with you in the space,
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they may develop feelings depending on how you play the game.
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So that's exactly where I am.
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You know, when you were asking in concrete terms...
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Now I'll ask you to elaborate also after this.
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Yeah. So just to like...
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So when you ask in concrete terms, right?
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Like if you are stuck with this question, let's say for weeks or months,
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And this is something that happened like in retrospect, like this, whatever I did here,
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Like the answer was like we were friends.
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And I had imagined more than the person did.
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So then, you know, then all your assumptions about, okay,
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what are the hints that you're picking are wrong.
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And this is a phase that again, thankfully, like I know so many people go through that.
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When you're in that zone, you want to pick up all signs that you are interested in
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and that you are amplifying in your head.
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And all signs of disinterest you will ignore.
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Because you want to believe this is a story that it will go somewhere.
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So you see this pattern even when you're seeing signs of disinterest,
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you want to not acknowledge it.
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And then a dance keeps happening.
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The problem happens when it feels like this person on the other side is also confused.
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And their behavior is not really always consistent.
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And then you're like in a total mess.
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And as you are dealing with it and then the moment comes
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and you actually in the most right way ask and it didn't work out,
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then I think it just leaves a difficult spot
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where then you are trying to reconfigure, okay, this is done.
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Like you take some time to move on.
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But then what should your next interaction be?
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Then there's a phase where like I went to this phase
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that when you go on the apps, then you start getting validation.
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You know, you're getting likes.
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So you feel very good that, you know, like it also happens with men, right?
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That you get some romantic validation on the apps.
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You start getting likes and you feel like, oh, like, you know,
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I'm still a commodity in the market that's valued.
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But then you then go into like what am I really doing?
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So you go through this dance and then there's a point
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when it comes to like baseline normal.
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But all of this cycle is not lifelong.
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But it takes a toll on you is what I'm trying to say that.
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It's not really mathematical.
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I just love everything Samarth has said so far because it says that
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it applies to both genders, but especially having a man admit that,
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yes, we catch feelings and it hurts when they're not reciprocated.
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And that is just such a great point about like how
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the apps would have you approach dating as a numbers game,
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as you were saying, probabilistically maxed out.
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And so what you have is multiple dances of seduction going on where
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people don't remember what jokes they've cracked,
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where and what facts she knows about my life,
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because I've told so many people the same 17 stories I have by now.
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And it's you're in touch with your humanity, which is great.
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And I think that if you have that element in your approach to dating,
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I think you're already better off than those who are looking at it as a numbers game,
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because it prevents you from overdoing this numbers game thing, right?
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You will fall for authentic connections still.
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And also like that's also something I should please answer the Reddit question.
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But I think one of my favorite answers on Reddit,
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on like, you know, there's a rabbit hole that when I,
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and I think, again, you get into,
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you have to understand what people are saying on Reddit,
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because Reddit feels like the best place on the internet.
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I have to push back a little bit that men lean on Reddit way too much.
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I'll provide some examples.
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But we used to go to Reddit, Google and Reddit and see what are the experiences.
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Then one person really said it like really nice.
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He said, look, his essence was do whatever, etc, etc.
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End of the day, it comes down to luck.
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So like you will be like,
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so he was telling his own story that what happened period of time,
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it just luck struck and like he's very happy with his partner.
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So that is what sometimes it feels like.
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And this may be a delusion, but okay, you keep failing,
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you're wondering you don't have skills,
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or you actually don't know, you don't know anything.
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But somehow some magic will happen.
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Again, this is a very romantic ideal,
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where you're taking it away from skill and letting chance do its thing.
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But sometimes it also feels that.
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Which is the only way to do this, I think.
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The moment you make a project out of it.
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I have a related question on that.
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Like one of the things that you also said in your piece
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where you speak about, you know,
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I wanted to explore something, but I didn't know what to do.
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How do you progress to the next stages?
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What were those stages?
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Could I be interested in someone else or not?
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What's right and what's wrong?
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All really charming questions.
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You obviously hadn't discovered Andrew Tate
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and all the sort of the dating advice on Twitter.
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But so I kind of went into the rabbit hole of all these dating advice.
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I think Neil Strauss's book, The Game is also somewhere here.
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Just because I just anthropological interest,
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I found it fascinating what the fuck is going on.
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And number one, of course, they sort of dive into the hardwired buttons
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and they amplify on those.
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But also it is almost like it feels so manipulative in the sense
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that there will be advice like if she texts you, don't reply immediately.
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Your text should always be shorter than hers.
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You have to make her wait.
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You have to make her crave your attention.
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You should not come across as a lady.
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And I wonder, how do you draw the balance between that?
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Because when you meet someone, you want to be your authentic self.
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But at the same time, you want to succeed.
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And I'll ask both of you this, but from that male point of view,
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that how do you then deal with this?
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Because you don't want to manipulate.
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At the same time, you want to fucking win
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because you don't want to be a loser again.
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And what all of this advice says is that if you're too needy,
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if you're too much into it, they'll just turn away.
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You've got to ignore them a bit.
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And it's just very, very toxic.
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I think I've already told stories that should tell you that.
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Not really good at it, but I think even when you look at all these traits,
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these are not something that I imagine myself doing.
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These are just toxic behaviors.
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So the worst thing that you can do, and I think now I've been,
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I was uninitiated, but you are in the zone.
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We are trying to figure out dating protocols and trying to figure out what's the right way to talk.
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You go on dates, you meet people.
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The worst thing you can do is not be yourself.
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We are weird in our own ways.
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And it actually, like the things where actually things work out are where
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you really feel comfortable to get to that stage where you can actually start
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the conversation by your weird ideas.
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And I realized even if I want, if this is the way things to do,
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then I'm a definite loser.
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Even on the apps, when you start conversation, sometimes I actually start,
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once I actually put it on my hinge prompt that,
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so yeah, I mean, basically I'm supposed to create a charming prompt so that,
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or create that first message to entice you and fake a personality
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so that you'll start talking to me.
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All the things we do on hinge prompts, right?
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Just to catch attention.
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And you just feel so shit about yourself that I am not this person.
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Why do I have to behave like this?
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And again, maybe, so I, I don't do this.
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Like, you know, playing, trying to play the game.
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You do it in a sense when you are in a situation and then you do weird things like,
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Instagram has a story, so you don't want to see it immediately.
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You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, I was just going to say,
#
in response to that list of things, you get out and the general,
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like nobody, I think, who's ever been in love would tell you to do those things.
#
Those are only single people selling to other people who share that loneliness
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and see a market and want to pan like whatever Manosphere exists.
#
I think the other rules of the game you keep in mind,
#
because I imagine like the female version of that kind of advice
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would be that you should not come across as too forward.
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I think I hate when I like the idea of curtailing how much affection
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and chemistry I'm feeling with you and playing it cool.
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When I do that, I feel like I'm then what is the point?
#
I'm not saying be madly deeply in love.
#
And if someone is just sort of Rega Jha has this wonderful piece on flirting.
#
And it's one of, I mean, I rarely ever reread pieces, but I've read that twice.
#
And in it, she says that flirting is like a game of, you know,
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two people are standing at opposite ends of a field.
#
One person takes a step.
#
Ideally, the other person can just take one more step towards you and match.
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But the giver takes a one and a half steps or a two step.
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And then slowly that person takes two or three steps.
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And then you meet at the middle.
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It is as unattractive to let the other person take all the steps
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or for you to run across the field without seeing any motion on that side.
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Both are equally unacceptable.
#
She actually likens it psychologically to the toddler worldview,
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where the expectation is that you are just loved by your parent
#
without you having to do anything.
#
So unless you are psychologically evolved enough to see it as a mutual obligation
#
and be secure, match it as you see, maybe a little more if you're that type
#
or if you can see that potential here.
#
But I think that's a great framework for flirting and for people who have,
#
and she says that the real grown up people seek joy in giving.
#
And I feel like, yeah, that's kind of what I mean when I, I want to flirt back.
#
Like I want to, I'm totally, I've asked guys out, I find someone cute.
#
I was in Prague traveling per solo part of my Europe exchange trip.
#
I thought he was the cashier of the store, but turned out he owned the store.
#
And I built something and I was like, holy shit, this guy is cute.
#
It felt criminal to me to not act on my desire.
#
And so I leave and I'm like, you know what, I need a bit of courage.
#
It wouldn't be great if I found someone who had a certain something I could smoke.
#
And soon enough I smell it and he's another guy and I'm like,
#
you know what, it's rude to smoke alone.
#
He offers some of it to me and I take it as a sign.
#
I'm like, shit, I found the thing I needed to go and ask him out.
#
I go back into the store and I'm like, I've thought what I said was supremely charming,
#
but he basically, we exchanged numbers.
#
I don't remember exactly.
#
I'm something like, oh, this bottle I bought was not the only thing I wanted from here.
#
If a guy says that you're calling security, boss.
#
And as a woman, you have some leeway to, you know, when a woman is forward,
#
it can be charming and attractive.
#
But when a guy, that's the whole distrust and the way I feel sad for male desire being demonized.
#
I mean, there's nothing you can do about it because you can't stop the other members
#
of your gender from being violent overnight.
#
It's a long repair that's needed.
#
But yeah, I think I don't like following these rules.
#
I see the value in like not running across the field when all you've seen is one step forward.
#
I've done that and I've had my heart broken again from someone who would give me these mixed signals.
#
And I think typically when that happens, when you're encountering people,
#
there's a bit of this, the term I learned for it is limerence, which is where you actually,
#
what's happening there is you're seeing parts of yourself in them and you're infatuated.
#
And what you need to do is integrate those parts, qualities within you.
#
And then you can, like when you are actually evolved and mature,
#
you can do the secure attachment of one step, one and a half, two, three, like that.
#
Also, do you feel that?
#
So I think, yeah, just in summary to the, like, I think that is a great way to approach flirting.
#
I was asking that again in the situations like beyond flirting, like the first encounter,
#
yeah, this rational part of you then comes in, like, see, there's emotion, which like,
#
there's no logic to most of these things.
#
It's just things that are happening.
#
You're going with the flow and take it.
#
But then the other part also comes in that you want to actually criticize the other person,
#
why did you give me signals or whatever is happening?
#
But then you also like, what is the full context in which this person is operating
#
and what are the parts that I am missing out that were going on their life and how they were
#
perceiving me that I am either idiot who read everything wrong or like, do you get into the
#
zone or is it mostly just like you did wrong with me because I am hurt?
#
So it's the question that if you feel wronged in such a romantic altercation,
#
do you call them out on it?
#
Do you call like, okay, like, you know, what we were talking about in the beginning,
#
what is your sense of right or wrong?
#
How do you think about it?
#
So in this case, the first time it happened to me was also the first time I was rejected,
#
rejected by this guy that I thought was giving me all the signals.
#
He was dropping Notting Hill references and gushing over my words.
#
What every girl writer wants, right?
#
You think you see whatever you love it.
#
I'm like, wow, you can't love it if you're not into me, into me.
#
He just kept flirting with me.
#
And at some point I was like, if stop flirting, if it's just that we've reached a boiling point
#
over weeks that if you don't make a move of some sort, I'm just like, what is this energy?
#
It needs release, right?
#
It needs some progression.
#
I was like, I'll ask you out.
#
And that was the time my charm didn't work or so, I think, because he was just like,
#
I wasn't flirting with you at all.
#
And I felt gaslighted at that point.
#
I was like, no, when you mentioned Riga's piece about that full flirting dance,
#
the thought that struck me is that everyone will like, especially all men will define
#
flirting differently and they'll see signals when there are none and vice versa.
#
And you simply and that becomes so complicated that instead of flirting with the woman,
#
you're basically fighting a war with yourself.
#
Like young Samarth read in that bookshop.
#
And then it can kind of.
#
So to answer his question in this case, I was like, then why are you sending me these things?
#
If you like it to me, these things are what define flirting.
#
And if you don't mean it, then you're going to have to change the way you talk to me.
#
And for a bit, there was a bit of change.
#
But then he wrote me a fucking poem.
#
And then I was like, on my birthday.
#
And I was like, I thought maybe you over time again, change your mind.
#
Or there was an evolution in your feelings.
#
And he's like, no, I just wrote you a poem.
#
And I was like, fuck off.
#
I don't think we can talk anymore.
#
I know exactly what you mean.
#
And I think when that happens, it's because you need to grow up.
#
Those damaging experiences are actually learning that you need to have.
#
And that is why the whole AI thing, right?
#
It's so broken because like this whole process of dating as much as like,
#
it feels hard and hard on yourself and like, what are we going through?
#
You know, we have a life to build elsewhere.
#
Like so much is happening.
#
And then this feels like a second full-time job kind of a scenario.
#
But you have to go through this, you know, to actually learn and be a good partner.
#
I think there was one thing you said that I wanted to add to earlier.
#
You said there's just two people talking about things they don't want to talk about
#
with the expectation of the mutual intent, if me or me not being repeated.
#
For me, I just I don't think it's things I don't want to talk about.
#
I'm explicitly, if the conversations are great, as someone's hinge prompt said,
#
and we did go on a date was like, if our conversations don't bang, we won't either.
#
Talking, having a lot to talk about and it's effortless and it's intellectual and dumb
#
and silly and smart at all at once is what I'm looking for.
#
So that dance has always been very real for me and the beginning of everything.
#
And it's necessary to build intimacy.
#
And then once you've done that, you know, the intent forms.
#
For me also, the fear of writing and being honest in my writing.
#
And I think someone knows a bit of the discomfort that I have in every time I admit that
#
I might feel like I'm Bolly or I have leanings towards Bollies.
#
I just don't want the label for so many reasons.
#
One is that I think there is this judgment that's going to happen.
#
If a woman says she's Bolly, then that means she's frivolous and free.
#
It's where you feel connection, you feel connection.
#
And it's nothing morally wrong about that.
#
But people seeing it that way is a real distinct because there might be actually
#
men that I can make a monogamous relationship work with.
#
It depends person to person that may not see me the same way because I've said this out loud.
#
The second thing is I actually don't know if I'm Bolly.
#
What if it's just a avoidance response where I don't want to commit to any one person
#
and I'm just like, okay, with half seeing a few people,
#
because intense monogamy scares me and mad at scares me.
#
Does the label on the frame even matter?
#
Which is why I don't use any of these labels.
#
I'm like, I don't know.
#
So here's a sort of a multi-part question as it were for you guys,
#
which is that how does dating change you?
#
And I can see it working in two ways.
#
That one, the positive ways could be that in anything that we do,
#
and this is a very, quote unquote, masculine way of looking at it,
#
but in anything that we do, iteration makes us better.
#
And if we date a lot, then we get better at playing the game, so to say,
#
and understanding other people and et cetera, et cetera.
#
And another way in which it can really work for you
#
is that you get a wider choice.
#
You might even get clarity on what you want,
#
which you otherwise might not know when you set out.
#
However, there are a bunch of negatives also attached to this.
#
For example, because you're meeting so many people
#
and you have multiple things going on,
#
there can be less imaginative investment in the people.
#
Like when you meet someone and you're attracted to them
#
and you've got feelings and then you're imagining something
#
and they're imagining something
#
You can fall in love with your image of the person rather than themselves.
#
But at least there is that investment happening
#
and there is that work happening.
#
Whereas if you're just seeing multiple partners at a time,
#
you're not, it's almost like really shallow.
#
You're flitting from thought to thought.
#
Another negative could be that you could become hyper aware
#
of each person's shortcoming
#
because you have so many other people to compare them with.
#
Like one of the past guests on the show,
#
Utsav Mamoria, he was chatting about this and he quoted a friend
#
and he said, quote, I'll quote him on this,
#
online dating feels like a buffet.
#
You can like quality one in person A, quality two in person B
#
and get satisfied by dating multiple people.
#
We forget that we are looking for one person
#
who will not have all the qualities you may want
#
and hence they are not satisfied with any one single person.
#
I think he was quoting a friend of his.
#
And again, so it could just make you dissatisfied with everyone.
#
So you could meet Rocky and you could think he,
#
you know, Sarthak is richer.
#
And however, Rocky has a great body, Samarth is honest,
#
and they all have different qualities.
#
But they're all actually one person.
#
In this particular case, they are all one person.
#
But apart from, so, you know, what does that process do?
#
Like I did an episode with Malini Goel
#
on her book in Bangalore, Unboxing Bangalore
#
and she had a great chapter on Tinder there.
#
Well, like one of the revelations was that
#
they did the data science thing, apparently Tinder,
#
and they found that in Delhi, the point of contact,
#
like the amount of time between first point of contact
#
and one person going to another's house
#
is like six months, major trust issues.
#
When somebody does go to someone's house,
#
In Bombay, it's a few weeks.
#
In Bangalore, it's just a few days.
#
So Bangalore, it's just a few days.
#
But that was a quantitative data work that she did,
#
but she did the qualitative stuff
#
of actually doing a survey and speaking to people.
#
And she said they're all freaking unhappy
#
because there are so many choices
#
and they just don't feel the connection
#
and et cetera, et cetera.
#
So what do you feel about, you know,
#
what the process kind of does to you?
#
I don't feel unhappy in the sense that
#
because for me, I'm not upset about having new conversations
#
and meeting new people.
#
And like I have a bunch of friends that I've made
#
off of meeting people on dates
#
and just not wanting to commit for whatever reason
#
you see this or that, just you don't feel all you feel.
#
That may be a 30s thing also
#
because I've spoken to a few people in their 30s
#
which I just don't feel romantic
#
the way I used to in my 20s
#
where you meet someone, you catch feelings,
#
You just, you're not, I think we're all in
#
a more individualized age of our lives
#
where focus is on yourself
#
and companionship seems to be the dominant mode of relating.
#
So maybe relationships themselves change over time.
#
So I don't feel unhappy about being on the apps
#
The moment I feel like, oh, I have to get married by 32
#
or the thing is when the unhappiness creeps in
#
when I've made it a project and I've made it a goal
#
and I've set timelines and I'm tracking where I am
#
versus that and I have like six leads, three of them
#
I'm scoring, you know, probability that makes me unhappy.
#
But so if you don't make it a project, I think you
#
and you stand to have like good conversations with people.
#
I would say that like, I think again
#
if you have to make a framework to this, right?
#
Like dating and relationship is an explorer-explorer problem.
#
Like classic that first like, you know
#
the explorer-explorer problem, like you're in a city
#
there's so many restaurants where do you go to
#
if you keep trying new restaurants all the time
#
then how will you enjoy the one good that you so
#
if you are on an endless exploration
#
you're losing out on the joy
#
and you'll have to go to a lot of shitty restaurants.
#
But if you just like find a good place and then stick to it
#
you lose out on so many other things.
#
So in so many cases in life, right?
#
You have to find the right balance between explore
#
The thing with just in context of dating apps
#
and not just modern dating in general
#
is that of course, like you're always
#
it gives you more choice.
#
So you feel like there's so much to explore
#
and then you can find a point and like stop and say exploit.
#
It's just that apps make the process of exploration very taxing.
#
Like, you know, the hard part should come at exploitation
#
you know, when you're actually doing the hard part
#
of building a relationship
#
trying to actually know that my romantic idea
#
of this person actually doesn't fit in
#
So, you know, you go on that journey
#
but just the exploration part
#
like the way just structurally the way apps are built
#
at least for me personally
#
a very taxing experience.
#
And the trap is that you know this
#
that I'm not really feeling amazing
#
by swiping left, swiping right
#
And then you'll feel like, you know, I'm beyond this
#
I'm going to meet people here and there
#
3 months later you'll make an account again
#
and that's this cycle that you get stuck in
#
that despite knowing that this app
#
is going to subject myself to misery
#
you always feel there is some possibility
#
because you know if you're in the dating market
#
then you have to be on the apps
#
like how can you not be there?
#
So it gets me into that zone
#
and you know that's where the dreaded quote
#
you know actually makes sense
#
because for men like actually
#
if you look at the stats
#
and again I'm not saying that as a matter of complaint
#
it's just a statistical observation
#
that across OkCupid, Tinder and Hinge
#
all three internal data sets have shown something very clear
#
that how does dating apps work?
#
A. There are more men than women
#
significantly more men than women
#
men send more likes than women
#
and there is deep attraction inequality.
#
So in Hinge their data scientists actually put out a
#
paper or blog where he said that
#
top in terms of attraction
#
top 10% of men get 16% of likes
#
so it's a three-tiered market
#
then in the 50th to 90th percentile
#
that's the second market
#
bottom 50% get 6% of the likes
#
Top third tile or whatever
#
that top bracket gets how many percent of the likes?
#
I don't want to factually be incorrect
#
A. Yeah while you looked that up
#
I just wanted to say that
#
the way I started to approach my profile
#
when I realized that if I want to meet quality people
#
whether or not it leads to romance
#
I'm going to have to signal things
#
about myself that attract the people
#
that I'm likely to befriend
#
like my humor is a specific kind of humor
#
so I've answered prompts in a certain way
#
and so you are actually the way people type
#
what they've revealed about themselves in the profile
#
whatever filters the institutions you're from
#
there's a lot that you can profile
#
about someone based on these things
#
and so if I'm getting a match
#
or I'm sending a match out
#
I think my initial instinct is
#
am I going to vibe with this person
#
and then later meeting and finding out
#
I think I'm usually right
#
but just to get the statistic right
#
I think I totally messed it up sorry
#
is top 1% of men on Hinge
#
receive 16% of all likes
#
top 10% receive nearly 60% of total
#
the bottom 50% receive 5%
#
so basically if you are in the top 10%
#
you'll have a good time
#
and I have friends who get that
#
if you are in the 50th to 90th percentile
#
there is still a possibility right
#
like you'll get matches
#
but if you're on bottom 50%
#
that's when you're like sitting on weeks
#
you're not getting a single like
#
and I know people like that
#
and it's like really demeaning about
#
you know you start questioning yourself first
#
all sorts of things happen to men
#
and that is where then you start paying money
#
there's a friend of mine
#
who was telling me that in Bangalore
#
like he was not getting any likes on Bumble
#
he was making good money
#
then classic engineer mind
#
what if I run an experiment
#
I do something by doing AB test
#
then he created a fake profile of woman
#
like he said I did this
#
nothing on the Bumble profile
#
crazily started understanding
#
what kind of profiles are he being showed
#
how the matches are coming
#
then he created another fake profile of a man
#
both the phones are kept together
#
so that there's no location
#
you know that the location is together
#
there he started doing AB testing
#
and came up with a framework
#
that how to crack the algorithm
#
he went from zero likes
#
and investing 10,000 rupees a month
#
and after that like he got really fed up
#
his main conclusion was that
#
if I'm not pumping in money
#
conventionally attractive
#
or I shouldn't be on the apps
#
not something that is super surprising
#
once you hear about all of this
#
it just feels actually very exploitative
#
on the loneliness of men
#
especially if you're not getting
#
suppose men are the bigger paying segment
#
since they want to be able to send more likes
#
they want to send more likes
#
like how many matches you get
#
how many matches I get yeah
#
there's some statistic also around
#
second or third profile you'll swipe right
#
possibly gets you a match
#
which is accept a match
#
I've gotten and we are matched
#
yeah so what is your probability
#
that if you swipe right
#
because they don't get like a
#
because they've sent me the match
#
and if I've accepted it then we match
#
but if I've sent the match
#
then I have to wait for them to accept it
#
how often does that second happen?
#
when I open one of the apps
#
is I see the matches I've gotten
#
and sometimes it's for me
#
swiggy or opening the fridge
#
seeing what people have said
#
I've become totally ruthless
#
and I mean just imagine like
#
it's also how people view
#
your stories on Instagram right
#
it's like a huge part of your life
#
they're not noticing the song
#
they're not noticing your makeup
#
and that's why like to sum up
#
what I'm trying to say is that
#
the experience of men on the apps
#
and the experience of women
#
in the apps is very different
#
I don't know if you have
#
the similar pyramid for women
#
like what percentage of women
#
actually that's very interesting
#
because when the stats came out
#
like people are talking about
#
I'm sure all the women will get matches
#
there won't be anyone on zero
#
there's actually I should
#
I have gone through a friend's
#
like the number of her matches
#
it was not the 50 plus range
#
women are all drowning in matches
#
here's a fundamental question
#
whether because of wiring
#
or patriarchy or whatever
#
but they've always wanted
#
that kind of sorted for
#
reasonable non-unhappiness
#
of both types of people
#
which was you have a traditional
#
and then you're married
#
for the rest of your life
#
different kinds of customs
#
and that's a whole deal
#
and marriage is supposed to be
#
woman takes care of the house
#
seems to have completely
#
and it no longer sort of works
#
and it was always a sort of
#
very shaky little thing
#
and it's completely falling apart
#
and I'll come to the marriage
#
but as far as the dating end
#
when a man goes on a dating app
#
as you become sort of older
#
and their thirties want
#
and their thirties want
#
like every time you generalize
#
you are obviously wrong
#
but you're also obviously
#
there's a kernel of truth
#
like there's definitely
#
like one of the things I
#
when you're dating around 30
#
again please confirm the trend
#
women I actually get along with
#
there's not even ambiguous that
#
they want to be clear that
#
look like we're getting along
#
that if it goes somewhere
#
then it's about marriage
#
we can't go to marriage.com
#
when you're in your early 20s
#
because you're still more
#
in the open exploratory zone
#
so then that starts creating dissonance
#
you know like a project
#
that you're commitment phobic
#
or you're not into long-term relationship
#
but you know get into that nuance
#
in a long-term relationship
#
tension starts happening
#
if you're not approaching
#
we are going with the flow
#
then you know the attraction
#
and the emotional connection
#
I want to build a life with this person
#
so what do I need to do
#
and then you start thinking
#
a precondition for love
#
love leads to compatibility
#
like you make things happen
#
and that's actually much more likely
#
to happen when the two people
#
and then what happens that
#
you know things that could
#
you could change as a person
#
you're ticking off the boxes
#
right in very first few dates
#
and that starts feeling
#
again depending on what goals you are
#
feels a lot of pressure that
#
that you have to fit in
#
so again I think I've digressed
#
from telling you what men want
#
personal experience about
#
then it becomes a little more
#
rather than exploratory
#
and that really creates a dissonance
#
you know starts showing up
#
oh my god you guys haven't seen
#
this is a matchmaker show
#
where she's like 60-70 percent
#
100 percent you will not get
#
which is what I was saying
#
then only 60-70 percent
#
but if you're looking for 80-90
#
100 percent you don't need to get
#
like for you and your girlfriends
#
how do those wants evolve
#
I would say that I think
#
probably what we seek for
#
girlfriend to girlfriend
#
like what would we like
#
which means have personality
#
wacko with substance abuse issues
#
he'll just go straight there
#
what the f**k is this man
#
it's specific it's like
#
I mean what do you want like
#
you want me to be stable
#
but also want me to be weird
#
like you can read so much into it
#
no I'm weird and unusual
#
you know the whole idea
#
about abstract concrete
#
like if you're concrete and
#
weird in what ways and all
#
like men can go in their own
#
once you provide a metric
#
so you don't want to provide
#
too much of a concrete metric
#
you know along with the other
#
it's gonna strike a chord
#
and I feel like it's led me
#
to at least friendships
#
and people who are like
#
they're not emotionally unstable
#
and how do you check it
#
from the way they're texting
#
and then subsequent behavior
#
like do they make you wait
#
and then do you anticipate
#
that girl who's allured to
#
with the space between you
#
it means you have some work to do
#
I'll also tell you two other
#
then I think I want your response on it
#
your rules are fascinating
#
I think you should write a book
#
I'm an expert on being single
#
I can talk about it for endlessly
#
you said this before we got on
#
yeah I actually think about it
#
without trying effortless
#
because it's like you know
#
craft like super interesting
#
to catch your attention
#
but you won't do the work
#
and then again you leave it
#
because there's so much
#
prompts are not saying anything
#
my most controversial opinion
#
you know things that people write
#
hey so if you just send me hi
#
you want men to put effort
#
then I'm like okay thanks bye
#
I'll you know so that's
#
of the view that it's actually
#
like really my favorite book
#
is thousand splendid sons
#
the best way to ask me out
#
it exists on both sides
#
through this conversation
#
must be obvious to any listener
#
cishet oriented discussion
#
people of the other gender
#
except Samarth is really
#
don't ask any questions
#
yesterday I unmatched with a guy
#
where the first message was
#
like sounds like you have
#
you're gonna give to the gab
#
so I respond with something
#
if loving this is wrong
#
I don't want to be right
#
and the thing he said was
#
I was like why would anyone
#
and he's like lots of people
#
I said yeah women especially
#
and then I ask a question
#
which is very where you from
#
and then I'm like so wait
#
I would assume like the
#
because I've seen too much
#
which is a response to your thing
#
and then my own question
#
and you know his pictures
#
I mean not in one shirt
#
like there's alcohol in your hand
#
so it's like a boy image
#
you're completing with the dots
#
you have a full painting
#
Picasso full-blown abstract
#
if you're not gonna ask me questions
#
I don't want to get to know you
#
I'm carrying the conversation
#
like the guy who's working at EY
#
what's your job at EY like
#
do you feel that the person
#
is really interested in you
#
and not asking questions
#
When it's on a date almost
#
it's when you find someone
#
keep those people in your life
#
and those are the people in my life
#
but I have been on many bad dates
#
I having now been on the market
#
and I think I've made a great decision
#
because I have now like
#
I start to notice what I like
#
and what I dislike more
#
when I'm interacting with someone
#
the guys who ask questions
#
because they like your thoughts
#
and they want to get to know you better
#
mutual intent hopefully
#
it's there like I know that
#
if I'm attracted to someone
#
I will have that intent
#
and I will be flirting back and stuff
#
the other person's thoughts
#
their mind is unique to you
#
you have fun talking to each other
#
and that's what I think
#
that's why I haven't given up
#
don't think I want to like
#
I can actually grow old with
#
like we can talk about things
#
but those are the things
#
without saying it's for marriage
#
but like those are the qualities
#
but you also said previously about
#
the intuition being better
#
like there's a checklist on the
#
yeah yeah that's because
#
I would initially have an impression
#
I'd be like we're probably
#
I'm going to get a story out of it
#
which is what I mean by my
#
fetishization of bad experiences
#
so that I get to talk about it
#
yeah and I just like I'm
#
based on the interaction
#
I don't think it's going to be a lot of fun
#
so go back to the earlier question
#
which came from the reddit quote
#
you said you set your bar lower
#
you know just elaborate on that
#
like from where to where
#
like what is the minimum
#
like I think uh you know
#
that oh he's listening to me
#
and asking good questions
#
and he's genuinely curious
#
I think is a fantastic metric
#
then of course you know
#
even I would take people like that
#
and how much have you lowered your bar
#
I don't think it's a very conventional
#
experience that I have here
#
it's very like what I meant by
#
the fatherless experience
#
is that uh you've emotional absence
#
basically feels normal to you
#
and it feels like even if someone's
#
it's part and parcel of love
#
because love you'd never get
#
you're going to be exposed
#
to a person's dark side
#
and you continue to love them through that
#
and when I meant lowered my standards
#
I've known this person for
#
we've dated for three you know
#
there's a lot of history
#
so I'm willing to actually
#
it's not a deal breaker
#
is there a sense for you guys
#
that as you go on more and more dates
#
for what constitutes as a successful date
#
whether your second date
#
or whatever level you take it to
#
is there a sense of settling
#
settling in the sense of
#
not having your expectations
#
as high as it would have been
#
I think you can tell in 25 minutes
#
whether you're going to see someone
#
how smooth the conversation is
#
you should be able to tell very quickly
#
if you want to see this person
#
again if you're having to force it
#
and just the vibes are off
#
like yeah I've learned to not disregard
#
because it has fallen flat on its face
#
who's finding the vibe off
#
and you will not change
#
so if you just trust your instinct on this
#
yeah one of my friends explained to me
#
if you have to actually think too much
#
because when it works out
#
it actually feels effortless
#
I think in one of his books
#
if a girl is going to be with you
#
she's decided in the first five minutes
#
is completely irrelevant
#
so you don't need to stress out
#
what was the context like
#
what five minutes as in
#
in the first five minutes of the date
#
and men will overthink it
#
and they'll plan every move
#
and the point is in her head
#
it's either a no or a yes already
#
one of my pet theories about
#
the people I've had serious relationships
#
the same institution at some point
#
so we have gotten to know each other
#
without ever having the project
#
when we started to talk
#
oh you're a person I've noticed
#
you're in the same college
#
we've gotten to know each other this
#
and then it unfolds and develops
#
I'm now going to be sizing you up
#
what I think is right for me
#
which could anyway be wrong
#
and then I'm checking you off
#
I didn't like the talks
#
I mean you get all these
#
a third place as people call it
#
I'm not the first one to bring this up
#
there's a third place theory where
#
the first place is work
#
the third place is where you go
#
again it basically means
#
which is anxiety inducing
#
hang out at places where I'm
#
the pineapple experiment in Spain
#
the whole pineapple thing
#
I haven't watched modern family
#
I mean we are all deficient
#
you can't make me watch
#
tell you about pineapples now
#
that I'm doing an episode
#
and do they have any questions
#
to this pineapple craze
#
that is going through Spain
#
and there are TikTok videos
#
I'll link from the show notes
#
that on a particular day
#
I think it's a Friday evening
#
to the pineapple counter
#
a pineapple upside down
#
bangs your cart against you
#
that they are interested
#
it gets really interesting
#
for something long term
#
it means you're looking
#
for something short term
#
because lettuce doesn't last
#
and when I heard about this
#
by someone like you Sanjana
#
but what I loved about it
#
the lentils and the lettuce
#
because you're completely
#
like putting it out there then
#
and then there is no scope
#
there's no scope for guessing
#
and I kind of really like that
#
what you feel about that
#
is we're always playing
#
different fucking roles
#
and eventually we grow old
#
that we don't have to do it
#
it must be like way harder
#
and project a self of yourself
#
and lentils and lettuce
#
the pretence ends out there
#
like what are the results
#
of that pineapple store
#
and it's full of people
#
I'll send you tiktok video
#
married off of dating apps
#
that it's not maybe all bad
#
there are success stories
#
just based on her profile
#
maybe it's not all that bad
#
but like this I don't know
#
it just sounds very funny
#
but like the banging carts
#
and someone might well say
#
if a conversation don't bang
#
I wanted to say something
#
when I think someone mentioned
#
just give up all hope right
#
like and this is a new angle
#
but my dominant approach
#
to a lot of life problems
#
you should disparage it
#
disparage and asparagus
#
same feeling to the world
#
but there's so many courses
#
those whole industrial complex
#
they know what people want
#
they want affluence abundance
#
that's the superficial level of it
#
taken action towards it
#
and when it's not worked out for me
#
it's taught me something
#
you should trust the universe
#
I think that's the worldview difference
#
just at a very fundamental level
#
the universe will conspire
#
to get you what you want
#
that's fundamentally manifestation
#
it's a little watered down
#
you know the manifestation thing
#
but it seems harmless to me
#
but it's also like very pseudo scientific
#
language shapes thought
#
then manifestation is kind of real
#
because your thoughts shape your reality
#
give me a concrete example
#
this is what I also mean
#
like you know sociopathy
#
experienced manifestations
#
I don't think I've got it down
#
no but I'm particularly interested
#
how language shapes thought
#
and thought shape people
#
elaborate that aspect of it
#
with something personal
#
but just to get a sense of
#
I should be 10 kgs lighter
#
so in two days it happens
#
so of course it's bound
#
by the constraints of reality
#
you can't bend the laws of physics
#
but I wanted to be a writer
#
why was I meant to be a writer
#
I think impossible things happened
#
on my way to becoming a writer
#
and I'm not saying that
#
I was in the right place
#
I got the opportunities
#
I feel like you guys are so blank
#
I'm trying to understand
#
is it that the thoughts I get
#
are thoughts that are meant to be true
#
and therefore they come true
#
or can I just do anything
#
I don't know about those two things
#
maybe I am meant to find
#
what that relationship would feel like
#
and not feeling a sense of lack
#
where I agree with this
#
where I agree with this is like
#
I must have picked it up
#
from James Clear I think
#
but I use it in my writing course
#
when I talk about process
#
for action for creators
#
there's an importance of just be it
#
and that is in the sense that
#
want to be a better reader
#
between seven and eight
#
and that's a just do it kind of thing
#
then I fall off the wagon
#
I can't do this anymore
#
and try and find a date
#
and you fall off the wagon
#
and it creates a vicious cycle
#
lead to your self-image going down
#
but instead if you just
#
own a version of yourself
#
who is the best version of me
#
like I'm a self-taught polymath
#
instead of reaching for a phone
#
can actually shape your action
#
because once you own that self-image
#
you will start reading more
#
this is kind of exactly what I mean
#
what I mean by emotional regulation
#
negative thought spiral
#
are not going to help you
#
if you really believe them
#
so notice your thoughts
#
change them when they occur
#
if they're not helping you
#
I also gave into the flip side
#
I have reason to feel bad
#
I'm shoving my feelings away
#
if I don't indulge them
#
take the necessary actions
#
to take care of myself every day
#
I was sort of wallowing
#
and not acting as the self
#
giving me the things I wanted
#
so I was just throwing a tantrum
#
and then I made my life
#
okay it doesn't actually help
#
to indulge every thought and feeling
#
you can control your thoughts
#
that's what you've been doing
#
just start doing it again
#
and I'm doing better now
#
you need to just think of yourself as
#
so when you have these setbacks
#
where you say talk to someone
#
and you thought it was something
#
and it turned out to not be that
#
it's not that you need to re-evaluate
#
your understanding of the dance
#
and how people talk to each other
#
and that the right thing
#
is eventually out there
#
and everything is leading you to that
#
and you can just keep doing
#
but like just have good thoughts
#
I just think there's a certain reflexivity
#
that if you think negative thoughts
#
and you're pushing yourself down
#
it'll be a vicious cycle
#
whereas if you just stay positive
#
then you can ride over the bad shit
#
and then eventually good things will happen
#
I mean I'm not able to articulate it
#
but there's something very
#
discomforting about this idea for me
#
because at least in my world view
#
chance and luck plays such a big role
#
I'm talking about the controllables
#
like I believe luck is 99% of everything
#
but that 1% is what you can control
#
less than 1% of reality
#
because there's no free will
#
so that's what I'm saying that
#
when if the dominant thing is luck
#
then what about its like will to action
#
like of course in day to day
#
so many things that you say
#
there are good sides to identity
#
okay you know identify myself
#
as a person into fitness
#
then when you're thinking about
#
your diet and nutrition
#
you know my workouts are routine
#
same with being a writer
#
that what do writers do
#
so I'm going to find time and write
#
all of those things you do it
#
is how you perceive yourself and do it
#
where the idea of manifestation
#
is that the underlying assumption
#
I think manifestors are extremely
#
they say that it's not about
#
thinking it and going to sleep
#
think it so that you are
#
embodying the version of yourself
#
instead of like I think
#
having thousand questions about
#
should I actually write
#
when you were giving me that example
#
it sounds like the person who
#
anxious about being a writer
#
that they will do everything
#
it's about getting out of that loop
#
you know it's about taking
#
being a version of yourself
#
that acts on the thing that
#
where I feel discomfortable
#
but given if we agree on the
#
that luck shapes so much
#
because I'm going to act on these things
#
then something will happen
#
no but it's probabilistic
#
then why would you act?
#
but the way at least manifestation is
#
talked about in popular culture
#
I think what's happening here
#
is we're talking about cross purposes
#
because you're looking at
#
an interpretation of manifestation
#
which in a certain kind
#
of popular culture discourse is
#
and it's also associated with people
#
who don't have a lot of credibility
#
but then the thing that you
#
it sounds like almost like
#
you shouldn't have hope
#
I will then expect things to happen
#
whereas luck is such a big part
#
so should I just not have hope then?
#
definitely should have hope
#
your mind is supposed to have one touch
#
best will happen for you
#
entertaining more thoughts is
#
I've gone through enough
#
mental health crisis to know that
#
I absolutely agree with that
#
you know what is happening
#
these conversations actually
#
we are ganging up on you
#
there's one of my fears
#
is that when you read like
#
there's a novel razor's edge
#
so you know the novel starts
#
I think the character is Larry
#
and I'm reading the book
#
I mean this is this is me
#
and I feel so relatable
#
and then the last chapter
#
this guy suddenly turns to
#
discovers Eastern philosophy
#
are happening to this person
#
that what just happened
#
same thing Tolstoy does too
#
you have not read Tolstoy
#
see like there are parts of it
#
I am Levin you know like
#
person fictional character
#
what's going to happen to me
#
but these kind of things
#
that my whole idea about
#
the values that I uphold
#
such a fundamental shift
#
that ties in with your values
#
a respect for human autonomy
#
isn't it taking responsibility
#
I am the architect of my life
#
my actions will change my life
#
to have the maturity to
#
yeah that's what I'm saying
#
maybe it's just the fact
#
that it's associated with
#
you know the Shah Rukh Khan line
#
kisi dil ko sachche dil se chaho to
#
what's finished and done
#
if you will to something
#
the universe will conspire to
#
that's a typical Indian stalker line
#
manifestation have told me
#
and then the universe will conspire
#
to actually make that happen
#
you believe in something
#
you have to act upon it
#
and you're more likely to act on it
#
and then it's more likely to happen
#
and that's all that is to it
#
and I think that's a good way
#
the universe telling you
#
of that statement necessarily
#
like it's a way of saying
#
what you want will happen
#
if you put your mind to it
#
so that's my next question
#
so that's my next question
#
when we think of love and romance
#
and when we think of marriage
#
we've been conditioned to think of it
#
so marriage for example
#
is supposed to have companionship
#
there's supposed to be romance
#
there's supposed to be sex
#
there's supposed to be looking after each other
#
and what typically happens is
#
the package falls apart
#
one or two elements kind of fall out
#
and there's a danger that you insist
#
and then there is unhappiness
#
and bitterness on all sides
#
or you don't kind of know
#
and I would imagine that
#
even in the quest for love
#
there can be all of these different things
#
and then you don't really know
#
and my thinking is that perhaps
#
socially we need to evolve
#
to the point where it's okay
#
that all my needs need not be fulfilled
#
for an extended period of time
#
and I will buy lettuce from somewhere
#
and lentils from somewhere else
#
this sounds very polyamorous
#
but without using labels
#
that we are different sets of things
#
there was a time where a particular
#
particular institutions
#
and particular ways of dating
#
and all of that evolved
#
particular notions of love
#
but if you just sort of
#
kind of deconstruct them
#
if you look at them closer
#
it need not be that way
#
everything may not be entangled
#
what do you feel about that
#
what do you guys think about
#
following the conventional life path
#
where dating need not be
#
a quest to find a life partner
#
but just a way to meet new people
#
situationship seems such an ugly word
#
and it's in such an invoked word
#
but you get what I'm saying
#
and you've got different things going on
#
and you find happiness in different ways
#
and everything is in flux
#
and we contain multitudes
#
your first question was
#
my first question is that
#
the disentangling of the package
#
like have you struggled with it
#
that oh I need all these things
#
and then when the last relationship
#
my emotional needs are not being met here
#
is a relationship expert
#
marriage sustains itself
#
on familiarity attachment
#
the context relationship
#
that's been built over all these years
#
novelty and excitement in design
#
those are fundamentally by definition
#
at odds with each other
#
you can keep trying new things
#
and that can last however long it lasts
#
it makes sense to be real about it
#
being attracted to multiple people
#
the choice between monogamy
#
and let's call the other thing polyamory
#
but maybe the label is limiting
#
eat home cooked food forever
#
occasionally ordering from Swiggy
#
which is why Swiggy exists
#
ideally for both of you
#
if you're both sort of like
#
outside the relationship
#
and they show these like
#
and self-created problems
#
but I feel like they're being authentic
#
just saying entangle the two
#
how do you think about it for you
#
like how has it evolved for you
#
like you know 10 years later
#
what's a good day for you
#
okay I have thought about this
#
awfully since I am trying to manifest it
#
and David Mitchell is a
#
he appears on all these
#
I think they have a great relationship
#
they have their own thriving
#
I would like an intellectual
#
with whom I can share everything
#
with like a bunch of dogs
#
pillars of the community
#
and like we help people
#
building things together
#
enough of an understanding that
#
and what happens outside it
#
or maybe nothing happens outside it
#
those parts of us have died
#
and don't need like constant
#
that I see 10 years down the line
#
I'd like to have for myself
#
you need to be specific
#
in what you want to manifest
#
so that's your specific
#
really good looking guy
#
and everything else matches
#
no I thought it was Goa
#
I am speaking to someone
#
he's open to an open relationship
#
also has this other idea
#
where she talks about that
#
one of the problems with
#
she talks about communities
#
that individuals in itself
#
will fulfill all your needs
#
your friends will fulfill for you
#
you need intellectual stimulation
#
doesn't have to do all of it
#
I don't know history or warfare
#
your partner doesn't have to
#
be involved in that discussion
#
has to fulfill all my needs
#
where is the notion of community
#
early dance of seduction
#
we both are super funny people
#
we have a lot to talk about
#
banter is a huge feature
#
inevitably those relationships
#
are not the nicest people
#
whatever emotional volatile
#
the other person can be
#
maybe some of the things
#
the partner should have
#
are things that you need to
#
meet your needs for yourself
#
are funny people sad people?
#
I thought I had to be sad
#
because I'm not constantly
#
so Amit there's a other
#
thought like if you have
#
around dating and marriage
#
have talked about it is
#
let's say even in the west
#
not organized around love
#
so then with the enlightenment
#
justification for marriage
#
still like we're talking
#
so if you finish this thread
#
I said this some time ago
#
be domestically entangled
#
just to get through life
#
you'll make things work
#
and now that constraint
#
because it has gone away
#
then love should be the
#
that's where like you know
#
in long-term relationships
#
extensively like studied
#
I also have my own biases there
#
really a good predictor
#
but is that a predictor of
#
so what is the predictor
#
its answer was very cliche
#
scientific studies is good
#
but they basically said
#
people actually who feel
#
are looking for a partner
#
what makes a marriage work
#
like emotional regulation
#
intimacy over a long period of time
#
being it a novelty seeking initiative
#
ends up mattering a lot then
#
primary finding was this
#
to fix something in your life
#
that's probably not something
#
it's more like if you're sorted
#
and everything will be okay
#
I feel like an extension
#
to what you're saying is
#
which is you're infatuated
#
you know you're noticing
#
mostly what you're doing
#
you've projected something
#
the person may actually have them
#
you have an image of them
#
that you're attached to
#
and becomes exposed actually
#
we actually only love ourselves
#
is not conforming to your image
#
and your expectation of them
#
you don't continue to love them
#
you don't meet my needs
#
I don't meet your needs
#
love is actually attachment
#
and like there's like a
#
very nice anecdote about this
#
there's a king and a queen
#
and they're meditating together
#
and the king opens his eyes
#
who do you love most in the world
#
and the queen opens her eyes
#
expect that this causes
#
some kind of disruption
#
they later go and talk about it
#
to the Buddha or something
#
both of you are being honest
#
with each other about this
#
it's because you love yourselves
#
you're trying to get your own needs
#
but you're not looking for
#
because they're actually not there
#
that's where like one of my
#
it's such a common thing
#
with the modern discourse around
#
but I could also be open
#
to having a relationship
#
that means something is off
#
in your current existence
#
that's why you're looking
#
that's why you're seeking
#
well else why will you seek
#
there's a hole you're trying to fill
#
there's a hole you're trying to fill
#
I'm saying these are not
#
you can say that I'm actually
#
there are other things in my life
#
so I'm not putting active effort
#
I'm not putting active effort
#
that being passively open
#
earlier in the conversation
#
what's really frustrating
#
fine but you will find someone
#
and I'm so glad that actually
#
women like in their 40s
#
they've started writing about
#
you know the contentment
#
you know had these ideas
#
and I think the more narratives
#
I think that we need more of
#
is either its longevity
#
it ends with two people
#
and both of you come out
#
and you can remain friends
#
after that for a further duration
#
yeah but the idea of divorce
#
the idea of a relationship
#
they don't have to be true
#
he's an American columnist
#
a really interesting point
#
few structures in the world
#
is measured by 100% perfection
#
of course you will cook
#
if you're in a monogamous
#
let's say you're together
#
right like and no one likes
#
but let's say one mistake
#
and your 50 year project
#
monogamy is treated by that
#
either the success ends in death
#
he one person dies away
#
so that is success right
#
it's like what we say about
#
is the enemy of production
#
against institutional monogamy
#
the standards that we have set
#
what is this obsession with
#
long-term relationships
#
rather than thinking of
#
multiple long-term relationships
#
like what is off with that idea
#
like why does it has a culture
#
it feels that we have failed
#
at being monogamous couples
#
notions around divorce are changing
#
but still there's so much burden on
#
it takes a lot to undo that
#
but I really like your point
#
about singlehood not being transient
#
that people have in life
#
was I mean I think I read somewhere
#
I don't remember the source
#
actually only x percent of marriages
#
are going to be successful
#
and a large I think it was
#
school of life only that most
#
people are not meant to be married
#
that's why it ends in divorce
#
right I think there is a orientation
#
that instead of partnership
#
and building a domestic life together
#
dogs new house in the suburbs
#
oriented towards the life of freedom
#
and autonomy and exploration
#
I don't know where I'm going
#
I just know I want to walk
#
but maybe not everyone is
#
wants to or meant to be married
#
people just want to be free
#
no but even in freedom right
#
like I often think about it
#
you know the classic idea
#
were more about freedom from
#
like oppressive societal structures
#
norms like you really fight yourself
#
you don't have to fit into structures
#
and then you feel liberated
#
but now I think in my 30s
#
and this is a identity shift
#
that the joy that I find
#
in committing to something
#
and I'm talking not just in
#
because no one is talking
#
like there is freedom from something
#
yeah but that's not what
#
Isaiah Berlin's concept
#
free speech is negative liberty
#
no one should shut you up
#
so those are protections from people
#
and then there are positive freedoms
#
which aren't really freedoms
#
they are entitlements rather
#
for example freedom to eat
#
which imposes an obligation
#
that involves an obligation
#
that everyone should have free internet
#
to provide you free internet
#
they are taxing other people
#
and there's coercion involved in that
#
you think free internet is desirable
#
or a freedom as it were
#
so that's a distinction
#
if you voluntarily choose
#
to enter in obligations
#
it is still negative liberty
#
because no one should stop you
#
okay so I got this wrong
#
and now freedom towards
#
I am going to choose this
#
and I'm not going to care
#
I'm going to choose this
#
and all of it comes with so much
#
how do you reach this stage
#
it actually feels very joyful
#
so this again idea about
#
I said I've thought a lot
#
that we come up with right
#
if you're a single person
#
you can't commit to things
#
or that you actually want
#
which will lead to anxiety
#
I don't think that actually applies
#
are also very different
#
we are not one unity of
#
that okay single people
#
and that really frustrates me
#
in everyday conversations
#
who's always subject to
#
okay how is your marriage going
#
are you getting your marriage happy
#
supposed to be the person
#
you know like I'm supposed
#
and people do it unconsciously
#
even your well-meaning friends
#
like we're just hanging out together
#
this whole theory about singlehood
#
what happened to me recently
#
is going in great detail
#
towards the end of like
#
she's like so are you lonely
#
I was like I've told you so much
#
such a stereotypical question
#
how your marriage is going
#
is your marriage still working
#
I ask my married friends
#
if they've been hanging out
#
with their couple all the time
#
and I was like I don't hear it
#
that you asked that question
#
so we have 25 minutes left
#
since I'm good at counting
#
we have 25 minutes left
#
is catching a flight to Delhi today
#
probably for a hot date
#
or something I don't know
#
he has to leave at 8.30
#
have been trying to convince him
#
that he cancels his flight
#
here's my third last question
#
which kind of ties in with
#
what you wanted to talk about as well
#
that in one particular way
#
that young people do these days
#
and you're dating many more people
#
and you settle down late
#
in terms of broadening the pool
#
right in the sense that
#
like in a broader sense
#
and for the first 20 years of my life
#
to communities of circumstance
#
geography constrains you
#
you go to a particular school
#
you go to a particular workplace
#
your friends are from there
#
you don't you know no one else
#
the delight of the internet is that
#
we can form communities of choice
#
rather than circumstance
#
which is how I know you guys
#
people I would not have met otherwise
#
because of circumstance
#
has a really sad history
#
Tony Joseph writes about it
#
has been severe caste endogamy
#
when David Reich looks at
#
looks at the genetic evidence
#
if you're talking about
#
of many small populations
#
so a deep social tragedy
#
and obviously out of that
#
the drive towards women's occlusion
#
because then you don't want
#
and it's been pretty terrible
#
that modernity and globalization
#
and urbanization would change it
#
and especially in this new age of dating
#
it should change it to a fair bit
#
assortative mating thing
#
that you will only meet
#
even if you're having love marriage
#
you're meeting people like you only
#
can get diluted a little bit
#
so what is your sort of
#
but just your observation from
#
you know watching the people around you
#
do you meet interesting people
#
you would not have been friends with
#
elite educated in cities
#
so how does that sort of play out
#
has dating sort of broadened
#
a personally your visions
#
and the way you look at people
#
there is some larger thing happening in society
#
or it is still the same old same old
#
I think this caste awareness
#
has increased in my generation
#
who are aware of what their privilege
#
that dimension of their privilege
#
that say when I was in college
#
that we just never talked about
#
this umbrella identity of hindu indian
#
I know that some of the intercast couples
#
they've sort of not always consummated
#
similar social this thing there
#
you know families are not okay with this
#
and they decide not to get married
#
because marriage is a decision
#
that involves previous generations
#
that's not entirely easy to change
#
so yes there is awareness
#
but I don't know that it's become easier to
#
break those fault lines to get married
#
personally also I would say that
#
most of my new meetings are also
#
because I live in Bangalore where
#
probably I'm just overshooting
#
but 80% of people are like me
#
which is they've all been to a similar college
#
they've all got this you know similar job
#
and it's very likely that we're all
#
from the same caste class
#
I don't think my pool has really expanded
#
and all whatever awareness I have
#
is from reading the work of people not like me
#
just think of course like internet has expanded
#
options and people you meet
#
but also like even in offline spaces
#
like it's not more about
#
being depending on like
#
like if you show up at places
#
you meet very different people
#
I actually meet a lot of people
#
with absolutely different backgrounds than myself
#
like depending on what they have
#
it somehow happens more in Bombay
#
than let's say in Delhi
#
that you just encounter like
#
really interesting people
#
so I mean all I'm trying to say
#
of course internet has expanded choice
#
but depending on where you are trying to show up
#
like if you are just going to office
#
then two coffee shops where you go
#
then of course how will you expand the
#
like the kind of people you will encounter
#
but as growing up like as my interest widen
#
and I show up and I make it a point actually
#
that when I'm in cities
#
and I like to explore cities
#
that I show up at you know
#
not for the reason that I want to
#
with the objective of meeting
#
but to experience things
#
it could be like a dance workshop
#
it could be you know taking a heritage walk
#
and it could go wherever
#
so you know there's also this nature
#
cosmopolitan nature of cities
#
which has got nothing to do with internet
#
apart from internet telling you things are happening
#
which is also quite beautiful
#
apart from whatever internet does
#
like my penultimate question then is
#
if there are young people listening to this
#
who are confused by all this dating game
#
or intimidated by it or whatever
#
and you know what would your advice to them be
#
and both of you can feel free
#
to give advice to both sexes
#
so it's not like someone will just say man
#
because what advice will you give men bro
#
I think I would like to get advice
#
that is my humble admission
#
I just like people shouldn't feel like romance
#
is the end and the determinant of a good life
#
it's part of a good life
#
it's an ingredient of a good life
#
and yes you should want it
#
but you shouldn't crave it
#
you should be desperate
#
you should have a personality
#
which will actually just enable you to
#
get that into your life
#
and like yeah just manifest it
#
one thing that like I just
#
purely based on personal experience is that
#
not just about romance but in general
#
that just the beauty of
#
figuring out that you go through phases
#
my ideas about dating marriage were
#
so different in my mid-twenties
#
last year how I used to think about it
#
you are in different phases
#
and that's lovely end to chart out that journey
#
so this fixed ideas about
#
that you generally form at an earlier age
#
they don't really apply your partner's
#
change in the course of a relationship etc
#
so being open yourself to this idea of
#
is the only thing I can say from experience
#
all right final question
#
Samarth has been through this
#
so I'll ask Sanjana first
#
I'm looking forward to your answers
#
and this is obviously a question
#
recommend for me and my listeners
#
which fill you with joy
#
or you simply enjoy them so much
#
you want to share it with the whole world
#
and I already know that
#
I am going to dive into
#
whatever list you give right now
#
because you have read so much more than me
#
and if there is time left
#
because we're on the subject of love
#
and the whole psychology of love thing
#
that I wanted to bring up
#
a lot of that was informed
#
which was a really fascinating exploration
#
of how we're constantly looking for ourselves
#
and mature love is about
#
loving someone for their otherness
#
not what they reflect about you
#
but it's like kind of technical and intense
#
but the thought sounds beautiful
#
yeah it's called the Eden project
#
why don't we do this one by one
#
so I can think of another
#
because that is something
#
I've been lately exploring
#
so of course I mentioned
#
Bergman and scenes from our marriage
#
there's a HBO didn't adopt of it
#
but please watch the OG
#
it's like absolutely mind-blowing
#
two lately I've been exploring
#
don't get the pronunciation wrong
#
this movie Fallen Leaves came out
#
yeah such a beautiful movie
#
this person hires a person to kill himself
#
I'll get you in the show
#
person hires a person to kill him
#
yeah but both movies actually
#
I hired a contract killer
#
I hired a contract killer
#
the feelings of working class
#
the ideas of loneliness
#
how love can actually spring up
#
in the most unexpected places
#
and now these are all the autocompletes
#
I hired a wife for an hour
#
I hired a contract killer
#
I hired a billionaire husband
#
I hired a wife for an hour full movie
#
then the maid I hired recently
#
then I hired a private investigator on myself
#
I hired a billionaire to be a
#
and then contract killer contract killer
#
Sanjana's screenplay ideas
#
this is all influenced by
#
Amit's search history I think
#
and last and then Sanjana you continue
#
in separating art from the artist
#
please watch Woody Allen
#
absolutely amazing director
#
you have to watch Annie Hall
#
90s people who watch kuch kuch hota
#
I think it's compulsory
#
for you to watch Annie Hall
#
again a very controversial movie
#
but also a lot of his movies in the
#
don't make that much splash now
#
but like Husbands and Wives
#
my favorite Woody Allen movie
#
is actually not my favorite
#
participated in this anthology
#
called New York Stories
#
and he made a mediocre film in that
#
but Martin Scorsese had a great film
#
in that called Life Lessons
#
which is my all-time favorite Scorsese
#
there's a lot to say about Woody
#
there's a lot to say about Woody
#
two or three more recommendations
#
and then maybe one more topic
#
that I'd like to explore
#
and where are the smutty jokes
#
you're gonna keep doing
#
some good articulations instead
#
is Running with Scissors
#
his really difficult family life
#
and the aftermath of it
#
I read it in the aftermath
#
of a very difficult visit home
#
I can't be the only one
#
and I went and looked up
#
a bunch of dysfunctional family memoirs
#
and it gave me a lot of solace
#
to know that there is worse out there
#
so if anyone is looking for solace
#
about their family lives
#
ends up in an abusive relationship
#
with a man much older than him
#
then I want to recommend After Son
#
which maybe both of you
#
I haven't seen heard of it
#
speaking of the relationship
#
between fathers and daughters
#
and like how complicated
#
so I just want to actually
#
apologize to my family a little bit
#
because I think I've bared
#
being interesting myself
#
have to separate the art from the artists
#
especially if anyone wants to read my book
#
because I'm pretty sure
#
and I think that that whole
#
how are you only expecting
#
like what is that that isn't
#
it's never made sense to me
#
it's completely nonsensical to me
#
because like look at Elena Farente
#
nobody knows who she is
#
everybody loves her books
#
now if you find out that
#
like what are you supposed to judgment
#
are you supposed to suspend judgment
#
till you have characters
#
characters in your works
#
yeah and I think it's just
#
life and reality in people
#
which is that only good people
#
and people are actually
#
I mean it's a very complex question
#
and like two of us are sociopaths
#
which is why you're singles
#
I learned something new
#
things you can say in bed
#
the one bloodline comes to mind
#
because I'm obsessed with it
#
only one season is good
#
but I'm too hooked into
#
how like one family's wound
#
makes them all murderers
#
in being unable to forgive each other
#
they become worse and worse
#
in protecting the family name
#
what did you hate watch lately
#
I'm assuming you do hate watch
#
isn't life too short to hate watch
#
I do a lot of comfort watching
#
what's your comfort food
#
I usually default to a sitcom
#
I don't want to deal with
#
Sex in the City for the first time
#
a sequel and just like that
#
and then the two Sex in the City movies
#
I went on a whole spree
#
as a 30-year-old single woman
#
which is what Carrie is
#
I think at the early time in the show
#
and I actually noted this line down
#
because it's a great sentence
#
where you say Carrie was one of
#
TV's first female protagonists
#
to portray women as desiring beings
#
rather than just desired objects
#
also yeah I mean more in my book
#
but like Rachel from Friends
#
like they show her lusting after
#
overpowered by desire in some scenes
#
so attracted to someone
#
it's only western women on screen
#
because you don't have those
#
I mean until very recently
#
and the Pitampura bookshop
#
there's no there's no bookshop
#
oh you came from Pitampura
#
this was somewhere else
#
this was in Vasanth Kunj
#
the girl in the Vasanth Kunj bookshop
#
she was lusting after you
#
she was lusting after you
#
for obvious reasons frankly
#
showed you her ear for god's sake
#
I cannot think of a more sexual act
#
yeah and he did not realize
#
yeah I wanted to buy a book for a friend
#
I can't even think of the
#
first movie of Spike Lee
#
do the right thing ke pehle
#
no like because you don't
#
you talk about female desirability
#
I didn't know also that it was
#
there were two other women
#
apart from Ronan Farrow
#
which was quite telling that
#
the women investigating sexual harassment
#
got less of a limelight
#
but the movie she said on Netflix
#
the reason I mentioned the Spike Lee
#
like the woman that plays
#
I think it's a 70s 80s movie
#
but just show like a woman
#
who's complex is flawed
#
but like really owning up to her desire
#
like she's gonna have it
#
yeah she's gonna have it
#
like there are three men in the lives
#
three very different characters
#
who she wants to be with
#
and when the movie ends
#
you're not thinking that oh
#
in any sort of way like
#
she's shown as a flawed character
#
but the fact that she's owning it
#
like you know the idea of desire
#
I think even about sexuality
#
like it was a very striking movie
#
actually I want to recommend
#
I think the insight about Carrie
#
was something I got from there
#
they'd analyze sex in the city
#
they have a wonderful episode
#
have you seen Succession?
#
there's a character called Shiv
#
and I think she grapples
#
with a lot of what it means
#
boardroom business world
#
has to forego her femininity
#
which I think we talked about
#
like having parts of yourself
#
they have some really good videos
#
anyone who wants to be a writer
#
could benefit from that
#
we could try a filibuster thing
#
where I asked Sanjana a question
#
and she is so interesting
#
for so long that you miss your flight
#
we have all agreed prior to this
#
the three of us will meet
#
so I'm already looking forward
#
it's so great to do this
#
and so good to meet you
#
thanks so much for having us
#
I mean I honestly feel like
#
if you enjoyed listening
#
you think might be interested
#
check out the show notes
#
enter rabbit holes at will
#
you can follow Sanjana on twitter
#
you can follow samarth on twitter
#
because these are really confusing names
#
but they're also linked
#
so you can find them there
#
you can follow me on twitter
#
you can browse past episodes
#
of the scene and the unseen
#
at scene unseen dot i n
#
thank you for listening
#
did you enjoy this episode
#
of the scene and the unseen
#
would you like to support
#
the production of the show
#
to scene unseen dot i n slash support
#
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