#
Did you know that Parsi's in Mumbai, instead of being left at the Tower of Silence after
#
they die, are now cremated?
#
Because a cow fell sick in the early 1990s.
#
Did you know that the smog in Delhi is caused by something that farmers in Punjab do and
#
that there's no way to stop them?
#
Did you know that there wasn't one gas tragedy in Bhopal, but three?
#
One of them was seen, but two were unseen.
#
Did you know that many well-intentioned government policies hurt the people they're supposed
#
Why was demonetization a bad idea?
#
How should GST have been implemented?
#
Why are all our politicians so corrupt when not all of them are bad people?
#
I'm Amit Verma and in my weekly podcast, The Seen and the Unseen, I take a shot at
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answering all these questions and many more.
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I aim to go beyond the seen and show you the unseen effects of public policy and private
#
I speak to experts on economics, political philosophy, cognitive neuroscience and constitutional
#
law so that their insights can blow not only my mind, but also yours.
#
The Seen and the Unseen releases every Monday.
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So do check out the archives and follow the show at seenunseen.in.
#
You can also subscribe to The Seen and the Unseen on whatever podcast app you happen
#
And now let's move on to the show.
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If Donald Trump saw the way I lived, he would be very worried.
#
Here's what would worry him.
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There's a maidservant who works at my place and she comes every morning to wash the dishes
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and do some household cleaning.
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We pay her a decent amount, something she's quite happy with, and we get along well.
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She has no complaints with my wife and me and we like her work.
#
However, if Donald Trump was my grouchy uncle and if he was visiting for the weekend, he
#
would have a problem with my maidservant.
#
I can imagine what he would say.
#
He would point out that while we buy the lady's house cleaning services month after month,
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she buys absolutely nothing from us.
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In other words, we are running a trade deficit with her.
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This is unfair, he would say.
#
Either she should start buying things from us as much as we buy from her ideally, or
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we should stop buying our services and do the daily cleaning ourselves.
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I can totally imagine Trump shouting at me, you are being exploited Amit, sad.
#
Welcome to The Scene and the Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics and behavioral
#
Please welcome your host, Amit Barma.
#
Welcome to The Scene and the Unseen.
#
My intro to this episode was inspired by an article Tim Halford wrote in the Financial
#
Times in 2005 titled, A Trade Deficit with a Babysitter.
#
Now, I don't have a baby, so I Indianized it a little bit.
#
And I don't need to tell you why it is absurd to think of a trade deficit with a maidservant
#
It is because all trade is a positive sum game, both parties benefit.
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We get our house cleaning done at a rate we are happy to pay, our maidservant gets a renumeration
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for it that she is happy with, otherwise she wouldn't do the job in the first place.
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Both of us are better off.
#
This is true even of trade between countries.
#
And here's the thing, countries don't really trade with each other, people do.
#
The US has a trade deficit with China for example, but actually it doesn't mean that
#
the US as a nation is buying anything from China the nation.
#
Individuals and corporations on both sides are trading with each other and each trade
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leaves both parties better off.
#
The value that is created or saved goes back into their respective economies.
#
A trade deficit between countries is no more a bad thing than your trade deficit with your
#
And for this reason, protectionism is daft.
#
This is just basic economics.
#
Donald Trump disagrees because he looks at the world in a zero sum way.
#
But I won't go into that in detail in this episode because I already did a pretty exhaustive
#
episode on protectionism a few weeks ago.
#
Episode 59 of the Scene and the Unseen deals with protectionism and my guest, the economist
#
Anupam Manor, busted 8 common myths about protectionism.
#
Check that out in the archives of the show at sceneunseen.in.
#
Today though, I have a guest who will take us into another aspect of trade deficits and
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Donald Trump's protectionist urge, the monetary aspect.
#
Vivek Kaul is my good friend and a frequent guest on the show, as well as the author of
#
the outstanding Easy Money trilogy, which has just been re-released by HarperCollins.
#
Many of the insights he will now share with us are from that book.
#
But before I start my conversation with him, let's take a quick commercial break.
#
If this happens to be the only podcast you listen to well, you need to listen to some
#
Check out the ones from IVM Podcasts who co-produced the show with me.
#
Go to ivmpodcasts.com or download the IVM app and you'll find a host of great Indian
#
podcasts that cover every subject you could think of.
#
From the magazine I edit, Pragati, I think, pragati.com, there is the Pragati podcast
#
hosted by Hamsini Hariharan and Pawan Srinath.
#
There is a brilliant Hindi podcast, Puliya Baazi, hosted by Pranay Kutaswamy and Saurabh
#
Chandra and apart from these policy podcasts, IVM has shows that cover music, films, finance,
#
sports, sci-fi, tech and the LGBT community, all under one roof or rather all in one app.
#
So download the IVM Podcasts app today.
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Welcome to the Seen and the Unseen, Vivek.
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Thanks Amit for having me over.
#
Vivek, this is going to be a tougher episode for you than usual because I've started this
#
new custom from the last episode of asking my friends personal questions about themselves
#
so that the listeners can get to know them a little better.
#
So tell us a little bit about yourself.
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What's your background and how did you become a journalist?
#
Where do I see myself five years from now?
#
Yeah, and how do you feel?
#
You'll tell me what's going on in your mind now.
#
Basically, you know, I did an MBA in information systems and I worked for an IT company.
#
I was a project manager there for all of 35 days.
#
So the first two weeks, it sort of took me to figure out that I didn't fit in.
#
The next two weeks, it took me to gather the courage to speak to my parents, primarily
#
my father, because he would have to continue, you know, financing me.
#
And at the end of the fifth week, I quit.
#
In fact, I didn't even quit.
#
And then I tried doing a PhD for three years.
#
And after that, I sort of landed up in journalism.
#
And that was also quite by chance because, you know, DNA was had launched in Mumbai and
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they needed a personal finance editor.
#
And I just landed up and I got the job, even though I didn't know anything about personal
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And that's how I sort of...And all the journalism that I've read of you, like I've been reading
#
you for a few years, so perhaps not from when you started.
#
And all of it has been economics journalism.
#
I mean, what you specifically...
#
Yes, that economics essentially started once I went, you know, freelance.
#
That was primarily because one is it, you know, allows you to sort of write on a wide
#
array of topics so you can make more money.
#
Personal finance, what happens is, you know, after you've done it for a couple of years,
#
I mean, you're done, there's nothing more to it.
#
In fact, a couple of years, there's this great story about Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert.
#
He once decided that he wanted to write a book on personal finance.
#
And then he figured out that all of personal finance could be summarized in 87 words.
#
So he gave up on the idea.
#
So you know, once you know that these are the four or five things you need to generally
#
do in order to manage your finances, after that, you're just rehashing, you know, the
#
same thing day in, day out.
#
And you can probably rehash for two to three years.
#
Beyond that, it's a little difficult.
#
So you know, by 2007, 2008, I had already started, you know, writing more on economics
#
and management and, you know, personal finance had taken a backseat.
#
And once I went freelance in 2012, economics became the main breadwinner.
#
And you know, there are plenty of economics journalists in the country, but one sort of
#
niche which you've almost made your own, and one reason, in fact, why you're such an excellent
#
guest for the show, and I keep calling you here, is that you like to explain complicated
#
economic funders in simple language, which your grandmother can understand, or your mother
#
as you said in an interview recently.
#
Was it like that from the beginning, or did you at some point while engaging with your
#
No, actually, what see what happens is, and this is from the benefit of hindsight, you
#
know, when you when you, so I never studied economics, okay, I mean, I've never went,
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I mean, I've never gone to a, you know, college where, you know, I studied economics, my only
#
exposure to economics was when I was doing my MBA, where, you know, in any standard MBA
#
course, has one subject, you know, one paper on microeconomics and one paper on macroeconomics.
#
And that is, you know, you don't really learn much there, because, you know, my MBA at the
#
end had 72 subjects, so two out of those 72, you really don't learn anything.
#
So once, so when I first started writing economics, and this was for Rediff actually, and sometime
#
in late 2003, early 2004, when I first started writing economics, it was more of an act of
#
trying to understand things myself, okay, and that sort of state, so, you know, what
#
has happened over the years is that, so in a sense, the older Vivek today is writing
#
for the younger Vivek, who's just learning the subject.
#
Yes, I mean, you could say that, yeah, yeah.
#
And since you're self-taught, in a sense, you're an autodidact, to use that term in
#
economics, who are the writers which impressed you the most and which are the books which
#
you felt were most useful in sort of bringing about quantum leaps in your understanding,
#
Okay, so, you know, my problem is, I don't remember much of what I read, so, I mean,
#
I'll sort of some of the books that, in fact, an early book that I read, and I quite liked
#
it, was a textbook by C. Rangarajan and Bakul Dholakia, and they wrote this book in 1979,
#
when Mr. Rangarajan was still teaching at Ahmedabad, and that was just one edition of
#
that book that ever appeared, and, you know, for the next 25 years, 30 years, they just
#
kept republishing it, so I learned all the basic economics there, you know, what is GDP,
#
what is fiscal deficit, how is GDP defined, you know, the basic very, you know, what is
#
current account deficit, what is trade deficit, and it was a brilliant book.
#
The tragedy is I lost my copy, and I've never been able to find it again, because I think
#
So if any of the listeners have an old copy of the book, you know, you can do a good deed
#
So that was one book that really sort of, then, there have been a lot of, you know,
#
I think Tim Halford writes economics in a very, very approachable way.
#
His books have really been great.
#
Of late, I've been reading Thomas Sowell.
#
I mean, his books are just fantastic, because, you know, what he does is, and what is actually
#
missing from most economics textbooks is that he relates economics to politics, society,
#
and everyday life, and, you know, I mean, I find it very, very funny that, you know,
#
economics actually gets taught in colleges without being related to, you know, the society
#
and the politics at large.
#
Thomas Sowell, for me, is one of the finest thinkers of the last century.
#
And even speaking in terms of textbooks, I think his two books, Basic Economics and Applied
#
Economics, are both fantastic.
#
In the sense that, you know, anyone can pick up and start reading it.
#
And it's not that, you know, personally, I don't have a problem with math and graphs,
#
but it does put off a lot of people.
#
And it's just fantastic.
#
In fact, before I came here, I was reading, you know, Basic Economics, and that's a book
#
I sort of keep going back to, because it just explains things in a very, very practical
#
So, so Thomas Sowell, anyone who wants to learn economics and does not want to take
#
a full course or spend two years or three years in college, it's by far the best.
#
In fact, if I may give a recommendation to my listeners, another textbook which is really
#
good is Tyler Carvin and Alex Tabarrok's textbook on macroeconomics and microeconomics.
#
And they also have great video courses at Marginal Revolution University.
#
Those are just wonderful.
#
Now, on Twitter, I promised your readers and my readers as well, that I would make you
#
reveal something about yourself that no one in the world knows.
#
This is the first time people will come to me.
#
I mean, it's very difficult for me to come up with something, you know, which no one
#
Okay, let's say maybe your parents or your loved ones might know something, but the world
#
at large would be surprised by this, saying really Vivek likes wearing lingerie, you know,
#
No, I mean, I'm not, so, you know, lingerie reminds me of an old story, and this was,
#
I think sometime 2007 or 2008 or 2009, maybe, and my grandfather asked my sister in a very
#
roundabout manner, which took my sister some time to figure out as to, you know, what did
#
he really mean by what he said.
#
And he'd basically asked her, kya isko ladkiya pasand nahi hai, which essentially, you know,
#
that was his way of asking whether, you know, I'm gay.
#
So, okay, I won't ask you the answer, but most eligible bachelor in town ladies, if
#
No, so the point is, so yeah, so the larger point is, yeah, I mean, so I was just taking,
#
you know, your lingerie point, or, you know, as we Indians call it, lingerie.
#
That's not a roundabout revelation that I asked for, right?
#
No, so I'll give you a sort of, you know, something that, I mean, I mean, I have not,
#
I mean, people know this, you know, I am extremely fascinated by crime fiction.
#
I mean, I read practically, you know, I live to read crime fiction and over the long run,
#
you know, if ever I reach a stage in life where I have some amount of f**k you money,
#
I mean, I want to write a crime fiction book, so.
#
Which is an animation I share as well.
#
So that is, why do we f**k?
#
I guess we can write a crime fiction book.
#
The problem with, you know, the only problem I think is, you know, the plotting, etc. is
#
The problem is that, you know, in a city like Bombay, Mumbai, or in any city in India, how
#
do you figure out the procedure part of how, you know, crime gets investigated?
#
Because, you know, we don't know, I mean, there is nothing really.
#
A senior journalist at your level can just get in touch with a cop and so on and so on.
#
So what happens is, so I know someone who's sort of writing a crime fiction book and so
#
she did approach, you know, some senior police guy in Bombay and so that guy's condition
#
was that he also, you know, wanted his name on the book.
#
Yeah, it's really bizarre.
#
So it's not so straightforward.
#
She should put his name on the book just to reveal it to the world, this is the guy.
#
Or what one could do is, you know, and there are books like that.
#
I mean, if you read Scandinavian crime fiction, you know, especially a guy like Henning Mankel,
#
even though his books are, you know, the main character, Kurt Wallander is a chief inspector,
#
he doesn't really get into a lot of procedure.
#
I mean, there's basic shooting and you know, this gun, that gun, and you know, this is
#
where the bullet was and all that's there.
#
But it's more about plotting and it's more about how Sweden has changed over the years
#
and the politics, you know, of the country and the weather and it's just.
#
So you do a Bombay analog of that if you were to do something.
#
In fact, you know, the bizarre thing is there is no crime fiction set in Bombay.
#
I mean, and this is a city that can give you stories, dime a dozen, and this is a city
#
which actually has so many crime reporters.
#
And it's so, I mean, I mean, actually crime reporters are by far the best guys, you know,
#
when, when it comes to writing crime fiction, I guess the problem in India is that a lot
#
of crime reporters, even though they're very good reporters, they can't write, you know.
#
So ultimately they get the story and someone, they tell the story and there is a guy sitting
#
and the desk guy in the newspaper actually writes out the story.
#
So even though they may have the stories, they don't have the ability to.
#
And I mean, half of any narrative, like a narrative is really either taking a story
#
forward or revealing character.
#
And I guess a crime reporter would be good at finding out the facts of a story and doing
#
But the other half, which is revealing character and going into the depth of human nature.
#
A few years back, you know, Indian express did a fascinating story on a police inspector
#
who has retired and he cannot let go of a case of a girl who disappeared.
#
Now this is just, it's such an exciting plot point.
#
I mean, you can just start there and then let your imagination flow.
#
I'm already imagining the back cover of your next book.
#
So I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm just saying, I mean, it's, it's just, I mean, the city
#
has so many stories which are not being told.
#
And in a sense, given that you often write about Mr. Modi's economic policies, one could
#
say you're writing crime nonfiction, but just moving on from there now that you've made
#
this splendid revelation and our respective Twitter followers should be pleased by it.
#
Let's move on to the subject at hand.
#
You mentioned Scott Adams earlier.
#
And when I, when we just came to the studio, I saw you reading a book by Adams outside
#
and Adams of course, writes a brilliant cartoon strip Dilbert, but was surprisingly for a
#
lot of people, disappointingly for a lot of people, a big early supporter of Donald Trump
#
No, I mean, so, you know, this is a huge misconception that people have.
#
I don't think he was, he was a supporter, you know, of either Hillary or Donald Trump.
#
He basically called the election right early enough and he just, you know, he doubled up
#
and he kept going on and on about how Trump will win.
#
And that essentially sort of was, people thought, oh, he must be a Trump supporter.
#
I mean, you know, it's like, you know, in India, now people are talking about the fact
#
that in 2019, there is no option, the Tina factor to Modi, but you know, you, there is
#
You and me may not like that option.
#
So I think the situation that Scott Adams was in was very, very similar.
#
I mean, he sort of called the election very early and he just stood by it and people did
#
not, I mean, the media by large, especially the New York based media, which is liberal,
#
So why I bought Adams up was to seek seamlessly to the subject of Trump and to the subject
#
of Trump's vision of the world, which is where, in a sense, our talk about today's episode
#
comes from, because it seems that he doesn't understand any of the things that you've written
#
in your book, easy money, obviously, but also that his insular view of the world, that is
#
immigrants are bad, trade with other countries is bad.
#
It's just fundamentally flawed.
#
Now, you know, I've given one basic, at the start of this episode, one basic economic
#
point of view about why his fulmination against trade deficits are misguided, because I actually
#
think trade deficits aren't a bad thing at all.
#
I mean, it's just, it's trade benefits everybody, both parties.
#
But you've outlined a somewhat deeper monetarist view in your easy money trilogy, specifically
#
the third book, the second last chapter, where you deal explicitly with this and you give
#
historical parallels as well.
#
So can you outline some of-
#
So basically, you know, the first thing we need to realize is as to why is Trump doing
#
I mean, you know, at a superficial level, it seems bizarre, but actually it isn't because
#
he's just catering to his audience, okay?
#
So when Trump's campaign started, his slogan was, make America great again.
#
And the funny thing is that this was not an original slogan at all, because in 1980, Ronald
#
Reagan had run on the slogan, let's make America great again.
#
So Trump simply just dropped one word-
#
Reagan, of course, a very different kind of leader and he meant very different things
#
Almost the opposite of what Trump is trying to do.
#
So now, you know, why did Trump come up with a slogan like, you know, make America great
#
And this essentially, the answer to this question lies in the fact that, you know, during the
#
heydays of the manufacturing boom in the United States, there were factories all over the
#
country and primarily, you know, what is called middle America.
#
And these factories gradually sort of came to a stop and many white male Americans lost
#
Now, Trump is essentially catering to this audience and, you know, when someone loses
#
a job, at least in developed democracies, they have an unemployment allowance and there
#
are many other facilities which are available.
#
But at the end of the day, it's sort of, you know, not having a proper job hurts you personally.
#
So I'd just like to quote something, you know, from a book called The Wealth of Humans written
#
by a gentleman called Ryan Avent.
#
And in this, he says, work is not just the means by which we obtain resources needed
#
to put food on the table, it is also a source of personal identity.
#
It helps give structure to our days and our lives.
#
It offers the possibility of personal fulfillment that comes from being of use to others and
#
is a critical part of the glue that holds society together and smooths its operation.
#
So basically what has happened is, you know, all these Americans who have lost jobs over
#
the years have essentially started to think or rather, you know, have been thinking for
#
a while that it's the Chinese and the other foreign countries which have taken their jobs.
#
So this is essentially the perception that prevails and, you know, perception is reality.
#
And Trump has essentially played on this perception.
#
So when he says that, you know, make America great again, what he essentially meant was
#
that, you know, all these factories which are flourishing, you know, up until the 80s
#
and the 90s will come back and the average American who's lost his job will find a job
#
Now, there are a couple of points here which, you know, we need to understand.
#
You know, one is that have, you know, the Americans lost their jobs only due to the
#
Chinese and, you know, other countries like, you know, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia
#
producing goods cheaply than America does.
#
The answer is yes and no.
#
So what has also happened is the productivity of the American worker has increased over
#
the years and there's some research carried out by an economist called Michael Hicks who
#
writes that almost 88% of job losses in manufacturing in America in recent years can be attributed
#
to productivity growth of American factories.
#
Now, in simple terms, what it basically means is that an average American worker is producing
#
more goods while working in a factory than he did in the past, okay.
#
And this is because of advances made in automation and IT.
#
It has also led to the need for fewer factories carrying out manufacturing.
#
Now, one of the data points that Hicks gives is that if the productivity levels of 2000
#
had prevailed in 2010, US would have required 20.9 million manufacturing workers.
#
Instead the American factories employed only 12.1 million individuals.
#
So obviously there is a gap of close to, you know, 9 million jobs.
#
So you know, one reason why America has lost jobs is because productivity has improved.
#
And obviously, given the fact that, you know, other countries can produce things cheaply
#
than America can, I mean, has had an impact.
#
So Trump has essentially, you know, sort of feed it into this sentiment.
#
And you know, one of the things that he said early enough was that he'll try and shrink
#
the American trade deficit.
#
Now, what does that mean?
#
You know, trade deficit, a country runs a trade deficit essentially when its imports
#
are more than its exports.
#
So what Trump basically wanted to say was that he'll sort of try shrinking American
#
How do you shrink American imports?
#
You shrink American imports by basically encouraging protectionism so that, you know, Americans
#
are not able to import goods from other countries.
#
And that essentially leads to a situation where, you know, the American companies become
#
competitive and they produce goods which Americans can then buy.
#
In the, you know, I wrote a column when Trump was running pointing out that he had one thing
#
in common with a lot of populist demagogues, which is that he tended to come up with simple,
#
easy to understand answers to complex questions which actually only had complex answers.
#
So for example, his answer to the question of where are the jobs in middle America going
#
One is that your jobs are being shipped out and the other was that immigrants are coming
#
So therefore his anti-immigrant and anti-free trade kind of line, both of which are absolutely
#
I'm going to now ask you to obviously to expand on the trade deficit.
#
But before that, let's take a quick commercial break.
#
Hey, it's been a great week on IVM Podcast.
#
If you're not following us on social media, please make sure you are.
#
We are IVM Podcast on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.
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This week on Keeping It Queer, Naveen talks to prominent author Devdutt Patnaik to explore
#
queerness as depicted in Indian mythology.
#
On Cyrus's, Cyrus meets the film critic and writer Rajasthan and the duo quickly descend
#
into a whirlwind of movie references.
#
On LBB Catch a Fun event in Delhi happening soon and a contest lined up for you on the
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LBB I Found Awesome podcast.
#
On Hustle Science, hosts Ranveer and Tejaswant talk to entrepreneur Pranav Marwa from Think
#
ubate about his journey.
#
Also, if you missed last week, make sure you catch Sahil Kattar on their first episode.
#
On Pest of Esso, if you missed last week's episode, we had a fun back to school special
#
episode with a bunch of really smart 10 year olds who asked Anupam questions about inflation,
#
Try and listen to as many of these shows as you can.
#
And now, on to your show.
#
Welcome back to The Scene in the Unseen.
#
I'm talking trade deficits with Vivek Kaul, that is I'm not talking about my trade deficits
#
with Vivek Kaul because I have none.
#
But America's trade deficit with China.
#
Yeah, so America runs a trade deficit of around, you know, 552 billion dollars.
#
I mean, that was the trade deficit in 2017.
#
And in 2016, it was around 500 billion.
#
So basically within a period of one year, it went up by around 10 percent.
#
Now, what does that mean?
#
It essentially means that the total imports of America are greater than the total exports
#
of America by 552 billion dollars.
#
Now, what does Trump propose to do about it?
#
And so, you know, this is something that Peter Navarro, an economist who served as a policy
#
adviser to Trump's electoral campaign, and I think perhaps continues to be associated
#
I don't know of that because so many people keep, you know, leaving the Trump administration
#
that it's not possibly, you know, being in India, it's not possible to keep track.
#
It's my dream to see you as Trump's senior adviser one day.
#
So Trump essentially, so this is something that, you know, Peter Navarro says, Trump
#
proposes eliminating America's trade deficit through a combination of increased exports
#
The idea is to manufacture more stuff in the U.S., bring down imports and increase exports.
#
In the process, more jobs will be created for America and Americans, and this will make
#
You know, QED, as you said, simple solutions to complex problems.
#
Simple and long solutions, exactly.
#
And in fact, his website, this is Donald Trump's website, puts it, he plans to direct the Secretary
#
of Commerce to identify every violation of trade agreements of foreign countries currently
#
using to harm our workers and also direct all appropriate agencies to use every tool
#
under American and international law to end these abuses.
#
So again, you know, simple things that will sort of.
#
And put tariffs on goods from abroad, you know, and so on and so forth.
#
The problem is that what people don't understand is that if you look at American imports and
#
American exports, they move almost in a parallel line.
#
I mean, even though there is a gap between them, if you were to plot out, you know, the
#
imports and the exports of America over the years, you would get two curves which are
#
So there's a positive correlation.
#
In fact, if you were to, I mean, if you were to sort of put it in slightly, you know, complex
#
terms, the curves have a correlation of close to one.
#
Now, what does that essentially mean?
#
Now, it basically means that dollars earned by the countries which export goods and services
#
to the United States, which is essentially the imports of U.S., are used to buy goods
#
and services being exported by the U.S.
#
So the imports and the exports are very closely linked.
#
So the moment you crack down on American imports, the other countries, the money that they make
#
will come down in the process.
#
So they will have lesser money to buy goods and services being exported by the U.S., right?
#
So Trump's view of, you know, simplistic view of sort of decreasing imports and increasing
#
And it would also create a lot of problems globally.
#
But I would actually assume that that even if dollars weren't the universal currency
#
of trade, so to say, that same correlation would still be there simply because trade
#
is a positive sum game.
#
Both sides are benefiting.
#
And therefore, if you cut down on trade, both sides lose that value.
#
So even if he stopped buying from the Chinese, they'll have less money to buy from us.
#
So in any case, there'll be a correlation.
#
So I mean, forget dollar, I mean, you know, even let's say if trade was happening in gold
#
or, you know, currencies, currencies convertible into gold, anything, the same thing would
#
Now, you know, other than impacting America, this would also impact the global economy
#
And I'd just like to quote something that an economist named Richard Duncan, you know,
#
has been talking about over the years.
#
What he says is that over the past 35 years, the deficit, which is basically the American
#
trade deficit, has become the driver of global economic growth.
#
So what will happen if Trump makes it difficult for the United States to import stuff from
#
China and other parts of the world?
#
If the American imports decline, so will its exports, primarily because other countries,
#
as you know, said, we said, won't have the dollars required to import stuff from the
#
Also, with both imports, as well as exports shrinking, the trade deficit may not reduce,
#
In percentage terms, it might just stay the same.
#
So even in non-percentage terms, I mean, if both your exports and imports fall by the
#
same amount, your trade deficit stays the same.
#
Which mind you, I mean, our case completely is that the trade deficit doesn't matter.
#
But even if you happen to assume that it does matter and you're sitting in Trump's shoes,
#
this actually won't affect it at all.
#
So it's ineptitude upon ineptitude, basically.
#
Now, further a fall in American imports will mean a fall in global demand.
#
And in the process, the global economy will shrink.
#
Now, how will this play out?
#
Now, Duncan essentially says that any attempt to eliminate the American trade deficit could
#
easily cause major problems for the global economy, leading to another Great Depression.
#
Things could go particularly bad for China.
#
Now, in 2015, the US ran a trade deficit of $367 billion with China.
#
I think in 2017, the number was close to around $336 billion.
#
So this essentially means a trade deficit of $1 billion per day, roughly.
#
Now, if this deficit is eliminated, the Chinese economy will sort of collapse.
#
If China collapses, economies of China's major trading partners will be severely impacted.
#
When China exports less, it also imports less, largely because it will have fewer dollars
#
Now, this will lead to the Chinese import of commodities from all over the world falling.
#
This can have a huge impact on commodity exporting countries like Australia and Brazil, to name
#
Now, Duncan also says that this could lead to social instability in China, threatening
#
the rule of the Communist Party, and even military conflict between China and its neighbors
#
The response from China could be like the way Japan responded at Pearl Harbor after
#
the United States imposed oil embargo on the country in 1941.
#
So the point is that the US imports have sort of become a very important factor in global
#
And if those imports are cracked down on, it will impact global demand everywhere.
#
And once that happens, it could lead to political repercussions.
#
Yeah, and I'd also sum it up simply by saying that once you understand that trade is a positive
#
sum game, and if there's a given state of trade happening between US and China, by cutting
#
it down, you're effectively creating a negative sum game where both sides lose value.
#
And because these are two giant economies and the whole of the world is so dependent
#
on these two, it's going to have a ripple effect.
#
And it's even simplistic to say that China will be the loser here.
#
If China loses, we all lose, if America loses, we all lose, if Pakistan loses, we all lose.
#
In terms of trade, if anyone is worse off, we are all worse off because the world is
#
So Vivek, before the show started, when I asked you what you do to entertain yourself,
#
you said you spend a lot of time on Donald Trump's Twitter feed.
#
So, you know, talking about tweets, Donald Trump recently sent out two tweets.
#
One was against Canada and there was another one which we'll talk about later.
#
So he essentially, you know, in this tweet said, fair trade is now to be called full
#
trade if it is not reciprocal.
#
According to a Canada release, they make almost a hundred billion dollars in trade with US.
#
I mean, I don't know what he meant.
#
He knows what he meant.
#
So what I, you know, once I sort of saw this tweet, I went looking for numbers and very,
#
very surprisingly, what I found was that United States runs a trade surplus of 8.4 billion
#
What it basically means is that the American exports to Canada are greater than the American
#
So therefore, by Trump's logic, which we disagree with, if China is screwing America, America
#
And any more than that, you know, when you're running a trade surplus with a country, why
#
are you even complaining?
#
I mean, if you're running a trade deficit also, why are you even complaining?
#
No, I mean, that's a different thing, but I'm just talking from, you know, Trump's logic.
#
If a guy thinks the deficit is bad, why would he think a surplus is also bad?
#
So, you know, and interestingly, so again, I mean, I looked once I started looking at
#
I think Justin Trudeau is not macho enough for him.
#
Like, you know, that's why Trump likes Kim, big authoritarian dude.
#
He's like, he likes these macho guys who get people executed like that.
#
There's this photograph going around, I mean, obviously, it's photoshopped, where all photographs
#
These days, yes, all photographs are photoshopped.
#
So I mean, so there's this picture going around in which you have Donald Trump marrying Kim.
#
So sort of, you know, I started digging, you know, a little more and realized that the
#
United States actually runs a trade deficit with Canada when it comes to goods.
#
The trade deficit is around 17 billion dollars.
#
But when it comes to services, because, you know, America has, you know, big banks and
#
a lot of Canadian tourists actually come to America and spend money.
#
America runs a trade surplus with Canada when it comes to services.
#
And that surplus is around 25.4 billion dollars.
#
And hence net-net, the overall surplus is around 8.4 billion dollars.
#
So the first question is, why is Trump even, you know, what is he complaining about when
#
you know, the second thing is that obviously, you know, given the fact that on the whole,
#
America runs a trade deficit, examples like Canada are rare.
#
In fact, if you look at the American trade deficit, China accounts for nearly three fourths
#
And it was much less a few years ago, I remember reading in your book.
#
It's sort of gone up from around 22 percent in 2000 to around almost 75 percent now.
#
Which is a sign of China's growing manufacturing might.
#
And you know, if not for our labor laws and our, you know, mad regulations, we could have
#
So the larger point here is that, you know, there's no point bullying Canada, right?
#
If you have to bully, bully China.
#
So he's wasting his time on Canada.
#
I think he must have opened Melania's laptop and found a folder there called Justin.
#
That must have started him off.
#
So if you look at the American trade with China, America runs a trade deficit of three
#
hundred seventy six billion dollars when it comes to goods, but it runs a surplus of forty
#
billion dollars when it comes to services.
#
So services for America's doing pretty well because, you know, it is by far, you know,
#
the most innovative country in the world.
#
So now the point is, you know, the point that I want to make here is that, you know, most
#
of the global trade happens in terms of dollars.
#
And I have a number here.
#
I think let me just look it up.
#
So this is something from a book called The Scandal of Money in which George Gilder, who's
#
the author, says today the dollar handles more than 60 percent of the world trade, denominates
#
more than half of the market capitalization of world stocks and partakes in 87 percent
#
of global currency trades.
#
So given the fact that most global trade is happening in dollars, countries end up with
#
They end up with dollars.
#
And what do they do with these dollars?
#
I mean, when you export, you earn dollars and then you use those dollars to pay for
#
Beyond that, there is still, you know, countries like China's because their imports are significantly
#
lower than their exports, they end up with surplus dollars.
#
What would you do if it was the other way around?
#
Would you buy dollars from the market?
#
So there would be capital coming in.
#
Which would take care of.
#
Which would take care of.
#
Which is why, you know, ultimately, if your current account is negative, your capital
#
It has to be in surplus.
#
So what does China do with these surplus dollars?
#
These dollars ultimately find their way, I mean, a lot of them, not all of them, into American
#
or invested in American financial securities, primarily treasury bonds issued by the American
#
Now, treasury bonds are essentially government bonds issued by the American government to
#
finance the fiscal deficit.
#
Fiscal deficit is the difference between what a government earns and what it spends.
#
In fact, that is the deficit people should be worried about.
#
That's the real problem.
#
So what happens is, and China is not the only country which has these surplus dollars, which
#
find their way into the U.S.
#
There's Japan, there's Brazil, there's India, there is Saudi Arabia, Ireland, a lot of money
#
So what's the consequence of this?
#
What I'm basically trying to say is that, you know, both China and Japan own treasury
#
bonds of more than a trillion dollars.
#
In case of China, China owns, and this is data as of March 2018, China owned around
#
$1.19 trillion worth of treasury bonds.
#
Japan owned around $1.04 trillion.
#
So for the benefit of our listeners, just elaborate on this.
#
What are these treasury bonds?
#
So treasury bonds are, as I said, you know, issued by the American government.
#
They are by far the safest financial security in the world, and they're safest because
#
primarily American government borrows in dollars, and if at all there is a problem, it can simply
#
print those dollars and hand it over to the people who had.
#
So when you buy these US treasury bonds, you're basically lending money to the US at a certain
#
So because there is so much demand for US treasury bonds, the American government can
#
get away with offering a very low rate of interest on these bonds.
#
Now, treasury bonds typically in any country or, you know, government bonds in any country
#
sort of act as a benchmark for the entire interest rate scenario in that country.
#
So if the treasury bonds offer low interest rates, automatically the, you know, the other
#
loan interest rates are also low.
#
And as you know, you know, as we all know that low interest rates are very, very important
#
of that great American dream.
#
I mean, the American dream is basically nothing but consumerism.
#
It's a euphemistic term for consumerism.
#
So if all these dollars do not find their way back into the US, the interest rates in
#
the US will not be as low as they currently are.
#
So the larger point here is that America has an exorbitant privilege.
#
So just demystify that if I can stop you for a second.
#
Is it the case that because all this money finds its way back to the US and therefore
#
they have that supply of money to lend that therefore that money is cheap because supply
#
is great relative demand and therefore they can charge low interest rates.
#
So basically, you know, if Donald Trump starts cracking down on American imports, all these
#
surplus dollars coming back into the US will not come back to the US.
#
And therefore the interest rates for American citizens get higher.
#
Interest rates will go up.
#
And if interest rates go up, you know, the entire American dream, which I, as I just
#
said is basically consumerism and nothing else.
#
Though I have to say, I disagree with the word consumerism.
#
It's a bogie term, but we won't get into that argument here.
#
But I get your point that they'll have less money to spend and it'll be a downward spiral.
#
So essentially, you know, so the larger point here is that Donald Trump is basically attacking
#
at the heart of the system that has fueled the American dream.
#
And it's a system which has already been sort of weakened by many other factors.
#
And he's indirectly making America poor again.
#
I mean, that's, that's for sure.
#
And so, so this was one tweet that, you know, a man, Donald Trump sent out.
#
The other tweet that he sent out was very interesting in this.
#
He sent out yesterday at 5 22 PM and you know, I didn't, I didn't, essentially I was coming
#
out of a meeting and you know, some random guy on Twitter sort of, you know, tagged me
#
on that tweet and that random guy on Twitter is listening right now and saying, he's calling
#
I mean, I don't remember who he was, but yes, so thank you random guy for bringing this
#
So what, what Mr. Trump tweeted was oil prices are too high.
#
Now OPEC, as you know, is the organization for petroleum exporting countries.
#
Primarily, you know, led by Saudi Arabia.
#
Now, if you attack OPEC, you basically attacking Saudi Arabia, I mean, there are no two ways
#
So, you know, so basically, you know, we'll, we'll need to get into a little bit of history
#
here and before we do that, you know, there is some basic or some, you know, economics
#
that I need to sort of share here.
#
So OPEC is what economists would call a leading firm model of oligopoly.
#
Now, if you accuse me of using big words, I mean, I, you know, when I first came across
#
this terminology, I was like, you know, why can't they just use at least, you know, oligopoly
#
could have been coined a little more.
#
Can I use OPEC in a sentence?
#
Do you know the difference between water and oil?
#
No, water is transparent.
#
So OPEC essentially follows the leading firm model of oligopoly and that basically means
#
that they cater to a market dominated by a small number of sellers and within those small
#
number of sellers, the largest seller, which in this case happens to be Saudi Arabia sets
#
So why I sort of went into this is to tell our readers that when you attack OPEC, you're
#
essentially attacking Saudi Arabia.
#
Now, so there is a lot of history.
#
Trump may not even know that, but nevermind.
#
So, so there's a lot of history that we sort of need to discuss with our listeners here.
#
Now, you know, America in the early 20th century fell in love with the automobile and the production
#
sort of went up from around 1.9 million units in 1920 to 4.5 million in 1929.
#
And after that, the great depression stuck and, and then the second world war happened.
#
And during the second world war, all these automobile factories essentially were converted
#
Now once the world war started coming to an end and this was late 1944, early 1945, the
#
Americans realized that, you know, there would be an automobile boom all over again, because
#
you know, people had not bought cars for many years.
#
And what was also happening was that, you know, American cities were expanding, you
#
know, all these suburbs were coming in and there was no, you know, public transport system
#
to cater to these suburbs.
#
So sometime in 1945, the American President Franklin Roosevelt, you know, realized this,
#
I mean, obviously his set of advisors would have told him about it.
#
And he traveled quietly to the USS Quincy, a ship anchored in the Red Sea.
#
Here he met King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia, the country which was by then home to the
#
largest oil reserves in the world.
#
And American, you know, so basically America, as I said, had become obsessed with the automobile
#
and due to that, this had led to a swift decline in its oil reserves, even though it was the
#
biggest producer of oil at that point of time.
#
The country needed to secure another source for an assured supply of oil.
#
In return for access to Saudi Arabian oil reserves, King Ibn Saud was promised full
#
American military support to the ruling clan of Al Saud.
#
Who still rule and the military guarantee is also still there.
#
What had also happened sort of parallelly was that in 1944, the countries, you know,
#
the world had gotten together at Bretton Woods in the state of New Hampshire in the United
#
States and sort of tried to design a new global monetary system.
#
And in this new global monetary system, the American dollar was at the heart.
#
It was the only currency that continued to be convertible into gold, you know.
#
So you could countries, other countries could convert their, you know, convert US dollars
#
And I think one ounce of gold was essentially worth $35.
#
So one ounce is around 21.1 grams.
#
So this essentially led to a situation where countries sort of started, you know, till
#
then the trading currency used to be the British pound.
#
Now countries gradually started moving away from the pound and, you know, graduating towards
#
the dollar primarily because a pound was no longer convertible into gold and dollar was.
#
So this essentially led to a situation where the global trade moved towards dollars.
#
And OPEC also, because people felt more secure because it was convertible, it was convertible
#
See paper money as, you know, as we sort of discussed in a previous episode is pure paper
#
money is a very recent concept, which is probably as old as, you know, 45, 46 years.
#
I mean, 1971 was when the link between gold and paper money broke down completely.
#
And Nixon and I urge our listeners to go to scene unseen where our archives are and check
#
out my episode on easy money with Vivek, which discussed his books in detail and, and plus
#
the sort of insights he's touching upon right now.
#
So, so basically, you know, back then everyone sort of wanted their paper currency to be
#
So, and, you know, OPEC was no exception and Saudi Arabia was no exception.
#
I mean, the Saudis loved their gold.
#
So oil was bought and sold in dollars.
#
Now, this is a very important point, which a lot of people don't realize oil continues
#
to be bought and sold in dollars.
#
In fact, you know, over the years, other members of the OPEC, including Iran have tried to
#
move OPEC away from dollars.
#
I mean, in fact, in the late seventies, you know, few countries wanted to sell oil in
#
a basket of currencies, but Saudi Arabia did not let it happen.
#
So essentially if India wants to buy oil from Saudi Arabia or slash OPEC, it will have to
#
pay in dollars and it will have to get those dollars from somewhere.
#
So when oil is bought and sold in dollars, it essentially forces countries which do not
#
produce enough oil to earn those dollars.
#
How do you earn those dollars?
#
You earn those dollars by exporting whatever you have in terms of dollars.
#
And then you use those dollars to buy this oil.
#
And most countries in the world do not produce enough oil.
#
I mean, like the Indian import dependency in 2017-18 was close to 82%.
#
So which basically means that only 18% of the oil consumed in India was produced in
#
And when you import, you pay in dollars.
#
And when you pay in dollars, you need to earn in dollars.
#
So again, you know, this goes back to the…
#
What's the implication of this?
#
So the implication is this, you know, it goes back to a term that I used, exorbitant privilege.
#
You know, all other countries in the world need to earn these dollars.
#
America can simply print money, can simply print it, okay?
#
So if oil, let's say, is not sold in terms of dollars, what happens then?
#
Let's say oil is, you know, I mean, they sort of… the Saudi guys come up with…
#
OPEC comes up with its own currency, okay?
#
And says, okay, now we'll only buy and sell oil in this currency.
#
They may call it al-sauds or whatever.
#
Then the world does not need to trade in dollars.
#
If the world does not need to trade in dollars, the world does not need to export in dollars.
#
If the world does not need to export in dollars, all these surplus dollars do not go back to
#
And this again affects the interest rates and…
#
I mean, so the point is there are implications, you know, which you cannot possibly even think
#
And we are all tied to each other and if you affect this in terms of making trade freer,
#
you increase the virtuous cycle effect of it.
#
And if you actually cut down on free trade, you can make it a vicious cycle where everybody
#
spirals and gets worse.
#
So basically, you know, what happens is, and this is again, you know, it all goes back to
#
the title of your show, The Scene and the Unseen.
#
These are all unseen effects.
#
Because what happens is when we talk economics, especially, you know, political economy, we
#
just tend to look at the scene effects.
#
But there are so many unseen, you know, second order, third order effects that you simply
#
cannot figure out in advance.
#
So, again, so the larger point here is that, you know, a precedent of, you know, of the
#
only global superpower should not be tweeting like, you know, you and me do.
#
I don't tweet like that.
#
I'm very offended by that.
#
No, by you and me, I mean people in general.
#
So Vivek, just to change the subject, when we were talking on the phone yesterday, I
#
was, we are recording this on Thursday, before the Monday when it's released and, you know,
#
the day when the football World Cup starts.
#
And I told you that, hey, do you know Spain has just sacked their coach Lopetagui or however
#
his name is pronounced.
#
And you started talking about easy money again.
#
Iske saath Spain ka kya connection hai?
#
So the connection is that, you know, whatever is happening in the US now has sort of happened
#
with the Spain, you know, few centuries back in the 15th and the 16th century.
#
So, you know, essentially what happened was that in the early 16th century, Spaniards
#
captured large parts of what is now known as South America, right?
#
And the area had large deposits of silver and gold.
#
So these precious metals were sort of transported from Spain, from South America to Spain.
#
And, and, you know, then they were converted into coins and these coins were used to buy
#
And, you know, the story, one of the great stories of this is that in 1545, one of the
#
biggest silver mines was found in a place called Porto Sea.
#
I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly, which is now in Bolivia.
#
Now, Porto Sea is one of the highest cities in the world and is situated at a height of
#
And given the altitude that it sits on, it took Spaniards some time to get there.
#
Here a mountain of silver of six miles around its base was discovered.
#
The mountain or the rich hill, as it became to be called, generated nearly 45,000 tons
#
of silver between 1556 and 1783, which is like, you know, more than 200 years.
#
So that was the original city on a hill.
#
And most of this new found silver was shipped to Spain.
#
And in the best years, some 300 tons of silver came in from silver mines in the various parts
#
Now once this gold and silver started coming in from, you know, from, from South America,
#
the Spaniards became proficient at spending it rather than engaging themselves in any
#
Easy money had spoiled them and they produced very little of their own.
#
Once this happened, everything had to be imported.
#
You know, weapons came from the Dutch, woolens from British, glassware from Italians and
#
Now, Thomas Sowell, you know, who were discussing at the very beginning, makes a very interesting
#
point in Wealth, Poverty and Politics, which is, you know, a great book that he's written.
#
The vast wealth pouring into Spain allowed the Spanish elite to live in luxury and leisure,
#
enjoying the products of other countries, purchased with windfall gain in gold and silver.
#
At one point, Spanish imports were nearly twice as large as its exports, with the difference
#
being covered by payments in gold and silver.
#
It was a source of pride, however, that all the world served Spain, while Spain served
#
Now, if you sort of compare the situation, you know, something similar is playing out
#
Now, obviously things are not as bad in the U.S. as it, you know, they were in Spain.
#
But if you look at the ratio of U.S. imports and U.S. exports, and I'm talking about goods
#
here, not services, the ratio is 1.5.
#
So which basically means that, you know, the U.S. imports 50% more goods than it exports.
#
So, you know, Spain had like, you know, Spain had an unlimited amount of access to gold
#
Similarly, U.S. has an unlimited access to the dollar, you know, other countries, as
#
we've been discussing, need to earn it.
#
They can just spend the money, that can devalue their own currency and cause inflation, blah,
#
blah, blah, but whatever.
#
Yes, but over a period of time, you know, even if they gradually keep printing it, it
#
doesn't make, you know, a rate of inflation of 2 to 3% a year does not really kill anyone.
#
While the unlimited access to gold and silver was Spain's easy money, the dollar is United
#
And given this, it isn't surprising that like Spain, the United States imports much more
#
Also, you know, the Spain had to face the risk of gold and silver running out, which
#
it eventually did, but the U.S. can keep running its printing press.
#
So how did that Spanish story play out?
#
I don't know how they'll do at this World Cup, but how did that story play out?
#
So obviously, you know, after a point of time, you know, the supply of silver sort of started
#
I mean, it peaked in 1600 and started to fall after that.
#
But the spending habits of people did not change immediately, leading to Spain getting
#
into debts with foreigners and the government defaulted on its loans in 1607, 1627 and 1647.
#
So that's, in a sense, a crucial difference in that they ran out of gold, the U.S. is
#
Yes, because what happens is ultimately at that point of time, you know, gold was money
#
and there was no, you know, gold wasn't unlimited.
#
The U.S. can never run out of money.
#
As long as dollar continues to be the international trading, international reserve currency.
#
So tell me something, how do you see all of this playing out?
#
What's your worst case scenario?
#
You cannot predict anything.
#
I mean, you know, there is no worst case scenario because something like this can continue for
#
I mean, it can possibly last, you know, even our lifetimes.
#
And we are, you know, sort of in an age of populist demagogues everywhere who are insular
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And if you think about it, this is not really a right left divide because people on the
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right typically tend to be for free trade.
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And in this case, if you look at their policies towards trade, Trump and Bernie Sanders have
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pretty much identical and identically destructive policies.
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In fact, you know, the interesting point is if not the U.S. dollar, then what?
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Now, in 99 when the euro sort of came into the picture, people started to say, OK, now
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the euro will take on the dollar.
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But if you look at the situation in Europe and especially Southern Europe, the it's even,
#
you know, more worse than, you know, the situation in the in fact, in the U.S., in fact, the
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situation in the U.S. has now started to improve.
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So how does the euro challenge the dollar?
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If you look at Japan, I mean, the country has not grown for many, many years.
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And with the number of old people going up and the population shrinking, whether the
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country will, you know, what will happen is anybody's guess.
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So again, the yen cannot take on the dollar.
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That leaves us with the Chinese Yuan.
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The Chinese Yuan cannot take on the dollar until China has full capital account convertibility.
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Now, what do I mean by that?
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What I mean is that a Chinese guy can sort of take out his money from China and invest
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it anywhere in the world at any point of time.
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Now, that is not allowed as of now because China needs access to all these savings to
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build all the infrastructure that it is.
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So if you know, if money cannot sort of flow in and flow out freely from any country at
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any point of time, that currency can never be the international reserve currency.
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You know, a major reason why dollar is the international reserve currency is because
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the U.S. treasury bond market is extremely liquid.
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You can bring in money at any point of time.
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You can take out money at any point of time.
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So which means they'll continue to have a disproportionately large influence on the
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So what will happen is my guess is, since you asked me to sort of paint a futuristic
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picture, my guess is, and this is already happening, that China will work towards projecting
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the yuan as, you know, an international currency, but that is not going to happen like, you
#
know, in 2022 or in 2025.
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It will at least take a couple of decades.
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By then, you know, who knows what else might happen.
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And on that wonderful, hopeful note, Vivek, I hope you enjoy the World Cup and thanks
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so much for coming on the scene.
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The World Cup's in 2019, right?
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Yaar, tu cricket hi dekhta hai kya?
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I mean, I don't watch football.
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The U.S. hasn't qualified, so you don't give a shit.
#
So in fact, if you're talking about football, you know, the four countries which have 50%
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of the world population, U.S., India, China and Indonesia, are not playing the World Cup.
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Immediately boycott the World Cup.
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By the way, I went and watched the Hero Cup Intercontinental Final between India and Kenya
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and it was quite excellent.
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Next time you must come with me and fall in love with the beautiful game of football.
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If you enjoyed listening to this episode, check out past episodes of The Scene and the
#
Unseen at sceneunseen.in.
#
Vivek has been a guest on many of them where he's revealed many, many lurid secrets and
#
there's only one way to find out what those are.
#
You can follow Vivek on Twitter at call underscore vivek and there's another website which might
#
Hop on over to amazon.in and you can search for Vivek's books, which is an Easy Money
#
Trilogy released recently, re-released by HarperCollins in a really snazzy new edition
#
and also his book, India's Big Government, which true to its subject is a big book.
#
So do check those out and you can follow me on Twitter at Amit Verma, A-M-I-T-B-A-R-M-A.
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Thank you for listening.
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As you can see, we have a podcast listener in his natural habitat.
#
Billions of years of evolution have led him to this point.
#
He's on his way to work and listening to podcasts makes his miserable day better.
#
He will now head to work and use all his knowledge to communicate with other colleagues and possibly
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You can find more of his species on ivyampodcasts.com, your one stop destination where you can check
#
out all the coolest Indian podcasts.
