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Did you know that Parsi's in Mumbai, instead of being left at the Tower of Silence after
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they die, are now cremated?
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Because a cow fell sick in the early 1990s.
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Did you know that the smog in Delhi is caused by something that farmers in Punjab do, and
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that there's no way to stop them?
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Did you know that there wasn't one gas tragedy in Bhopal, but three?
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One of them was seen, but two were unseen.
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Did you know that many well-intentioned government policies hurt the people they're supposed
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Why was demonetization a bad idea?
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How should GST have been implemented?
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Why are all our politicians so corrupt when not all of them are bad people?
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I'm Amit Verma, and in my weekly podcast, The Seen and the Unseen, I take a shot at
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answering all these questions and many more.
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I aim to go beyond the seen and show you the unseen effects of public policy and private
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I speak to experts on economics, political philosophy, cognitive neuroscience, and constitutional
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law so that their insights can blow not only my mind, but also yours.
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The Seen and the Unseen releases every Monday.
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So do check out the archives and follow the show at seenunseen.in.
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You can also subscribe to The Seen and the Unseen on whatever podcast app you happen
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And now let's move on to the show.
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People who talk about the great potential India has and how we are becoming a younger
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country and we have this demographic dividend and so on, miss one important and depressing
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As a society, we actually suppress the potential of half our population.
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Women in this country are treated as second-class citizens.
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They're not empowered in their childhood and are often educated less or worse than their
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They are forced to conform to roles that destroy their potential.
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In fact, they're looked upon more as property than as people.
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And when women speak up about this, they face an amazing amount of anger from men.
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Where is this anger coming from?
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen, our weekly podcast on economics, politics, and behavioral
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Please welcome your host, Amit Verma.
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Welcome to The Seen and the Unseen.
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When I first asked the remarkable Aditi Mittal to join me on this episode, I told her the
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subject would be misogyny in entertainment and Indian society.
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Aditi said she wanted a different title.
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She suggested claiming our space.
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My subject was a lament, but hers was also a call to action and couldn't have been more
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While we were chatting about it at the IVM podcast studio, one of the producers, Swati
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Bakshi, also got involved and shared some of her insights.
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So we improvised and asked her to also be a guest on this show.
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Swati is a former journalist who now works as a producer at IVM and will be taking over
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producing this show from Abbas Boman, whom you heard in the last episode, who is leaving
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The Seen and the Unseen to take over as producer of Cyrus Brocha's fantastic show, Cyrus Says.
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I tried to convince Abbas to stay, but he simply doesn't agree that I'm funnier than
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I had an enlightening conversation with Aditi and Swati, but before we get to that, let's
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take a commercial break.
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If this happens to be the only podcast you listen to, well, you need to listen to some
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Check out the ones from IVM podcast who co-produced the show with me.
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Go to IVM podcast dot com or download the IVM app and you'll find a host of great Indian
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podcasts that cover every subject you could think of.
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From the magazine I edit, Pragati, at ThinkPragati dot com, there is the Pragati podcast, hosted
#
by Hamsini Hariharan and Pawan Srinath, there is a brilliant Hindi podcast, Puliya Baazi,
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hosted by Pranay Kota Srinu and Saurabh Chandra.
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And apart from these policy podcasts, IVM has shows that cover music, films, finance,
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sports, sci-fi, tech, and the LGBT community, all under one roof, or rather all in one app.
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So download the IVM podcast app today.
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Aditi and Swati, welcome to the show.
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Aditi, in the last show that we did last week where you spoke about the beginning of your
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journey as a stand-up comedian, you said something which sort of a light bulb went off in my
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I mean, it shouldn't be a revelation and I'm sure it's something that people like you take
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But you spoke about how part of the reason you came on your own as a comedian, as someone
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who would stand and tell jokes, was because you were in the girls' college.
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After a girls' school, you went to St. Mary's in Pune and then to Sofaya's in Bombay.
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And because there were girls all around you, you were actually able to get the confidence
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and were given the space to stand up and speak for yourself and build an audience.
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And your point was that if it was a co-ed environment, the boys would never have let
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that happen because they want to be in charge of everything.
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And at that point, it struck me that there is no male comedian anywhere who would say
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that I got the chance to claim my space because I was in an all-boys school.
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Because if I was in a co-ed environment, the girls wouldn't have let me.
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No male will ever say that.
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Which kind of brings us to what I want to start this episode with is that when we speak
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about the role of men and women in society and how it is reflected in attitudes, we are
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starting at a very unequal spot where women have to face a whole bunch of structural obstacles
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which men are completely unaware of.
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Like I was unaware that there could be such a thing till you mentioned it in the last
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episode when it's like, okay, another bulb goes off in your head.
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So I'd, and you know, when I invited you to do this specific episode and we spoke about
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it, the way I framed it was let's talk about misogyny and entertainment.
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And you said, no, let's call it claiming your space because that's a more positive way.
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And it's also broader and you know, we brought Swati into the show because she had a whole
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bunch of thoughts on that from her experience.
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So let's talk about claiming your space.
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What has a journey been like?
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And you know, that line you said was so true is that we're starting from a grossly unequal,
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I mean the finishing, the starting line is completely different when it comes to the
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And I sort of, I remember being in an all girls school and I think I do this joke in
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my show right now, which is that in my family, we don't beat girls because they bruise easily.
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It's much easier to beat a little boy and be like, Oh, he fell down from a cycle.
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That's why he has triangulation marks on his neck.
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And that always gets a huge laugh and a huge applause.
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But it also simply points out the fact that the treatment of girls and boys is unequal
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and is harmful for both girls and boys.
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I mean, girls, whether it's just being given a chance to be born really is a, is a sort
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of mathematical number.
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Congratulations, you're here.
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So I think you're sort of, you're playing Russian roulette from the womb.
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If you happen to be any other gender than male, and we cannot deny that whatever narrative
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that is currently running the world is male has been defined by heterosexual to a very
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large extent, white men.
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Every other story then, or every other voice that speaks up is then trying very hard to
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have themselves heard in a room that's already full of cacophony of one story that is trying
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to keep every other story down.
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So from the point of just being born to the point of having access to, I mean, I keep
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thinking about, I used to have this cousin who was really into cricket and I remember
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because we were told, no, no, no, only girls only play badminton and boys will play cricket.
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And she, I mean, unfortunately for her, got breasts at the age of 12.
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No more cricket for her.
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No more cricket for her.
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I remember, and this is an awkward, embarrassing thing to bring up literally within the first
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three minutes of this podcast, but I remember when I got my period, I hid it from my family
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And that included coming up with such weird devices to stop anyone from knowing, because
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I knew that the moment I told them that I had my period, it would immediately be now
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sit with your legs closed, don't talk loudly, don't talk to boys.
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You can't be doing all these things.
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I was terrified of the fact that my femaleness had suddenly asserted itself completely out
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That's almost incredible awareness for 11 or 12 year old or whatever it was.
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I had seen it just happen with, I'd just seen it happen with so many of my classmates who
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would suddenly become demure during sports period, who would be sort of like constantly
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be like shoved aside and hushed aside.
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I just, I was like, I can't let my childhood end.
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And I sort of, I mean, finally I sort of came to terms with it four months later when it
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It's not even that I told anybody, it got found out.
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And that was another hugely humiliating experience.
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Even though I come from a very liberal family where, you know, they're the kind who would
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be like, beta chocolate lo, now you're a woman.
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But wo chocolate merko nahi chahiye tha, I wanted to run around.
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I wanted to talk to boys.
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I want to laugh loudly with my mouth open.
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I wanted to do those things.
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And I just knew at that age that I was walking into a disadvantage.
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And I think that has sort of colored my perceptions of everything that I have done as an adult
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And Swati, I often say, you know, when I write about economics, I say from the economics
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perspective that India really inhabits three centuries at the same time, the 19th, the
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And that's equally true of social attitudes that we inhabit those three centuries at the
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And the journey for you in one sense has been starker for, you know, those of us who are
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from Bombay or Delhi or whatever, because you actually come from Lucknow and you've
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kind of made that journey from there.
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And being in Lucknow was an entirely different experience, I would say that Lucknow University
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is still, I think, like you said, is 18th century.
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I would not even say 19th.
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I mean, the way men behave with women there.
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And if you go to the university without wearing a suit or a dupatta, I mean, it's a scandal.
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And the way men look at you, they haunt you, make comments on you, it's very, very normalized.
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And it is seen as, ye to ladke aise hi hota hai.
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So the level that it has been normalized is a problem, and it's not it doesn't stop there.
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It seeps into every aspect of your life and everything that you do.
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So despite being highly educated and, you know, working in one of the best organizations
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in the world, my experience has always been something that I would, you know, remember
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as an experience filled with discrimination on various levels and in various different
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And just to set the context, what period are we talking about when you were in college
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And at what point does it sort of strike you that this is something that is not normal,
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Because even at your home, you are told to present yourself in a particular way because
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you're a girl and you're grown up.
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I was, I mean, I became comfortable with my own body after, I would say, you know, doing
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my post-graduation in Delhi.
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Until then it was a very turbulent phase because when I landed in Delhi from Lucknow, it was
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a completely different structure of, I would say the structure of living, commuting, studying.
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Everything was quite different from Lucknow.
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And it took a toll on my performance also, I remember.
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And that's like a blot on my resume till now.
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Until then, I was like a distinction holder.
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And then suddenly in DU, my percentage went down to 56% and I was like shattered.
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It was a cultural, I don't know, cultural adjustment coming from a small town in India
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to a bigger town and then being a girl on your own.
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The kind of pace Delhi offered me, I was not prepared for that.
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And the kind of people around, I was not prepared for that.
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And it took me a lot of time to, you know, sync with the pace of the city.
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And that was obviously something that I had to understand.
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And then two years' time was something that I took to understand that, to be in sync with
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So the city in itself is something, a big phenomena that decides how a woman would be.
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I don't know in other countries also, I think it's the same.
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But in India, it's very much a big factor that decides how you're going to move till
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what time you're going to move.
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What subjects are you going to study if you're studying in a university?
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Because you know, I remember in Lucknow University, the sociology department was notorious.
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And there were very few women opting for sociology because of that, one being myself.
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Because my sister, elder sister, who was studying in that department, she told me categorically
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not to take sociology because that department is notorious.
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So you imagine that how women do not, you know, make their choices, their choices are
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So here's my question for you, that fine, Lucknow and Delhi, when you moved there were
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like 18th century or 19th century India or whatever, and these attitudes were there.
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And you just had to kind of adjust.
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But then you went on after that to work for the BBC, for example.
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Was that 21st century India?
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It is because BBC gave me a perspective.
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I was not that open minded, I would say to discuss certain things that the profession
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of journalism and the organization gave me to think about.
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And the newsroom was a space where we used to discuss each and everything.
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It's a good space to do that, because there is no filters that we have to apply when we're
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discussing in meetings and all those things.
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But you know, it took a lot of time for me there also to be comfortable talking about
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Like Aditi now can talk about her periods and I now can, but a few years down the line,
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So the organization actually was something that offered me that space where I could open
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And would you say that's true of journalism or are there still those misogynistic attitudes
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creeping into journalism itself?
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Requirement of journalism as a profession, definitely, because you know, you are given
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certain assignments like reporting assignments where you are challenged by the space that
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you are accessing and you have to understand that how you're going to do keeping yourself
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safe at the same time delivering what is required of you.
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So I would say journalism definitely made me a stronger person who is not only a woman,
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A stronger person by empowering you or challenging you?
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Empowerment comes very late, you know, in Delhi, of course, when after 2012 also, when
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all these steps were taken that people would be dropped off, women would be dropped off
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with guards and all those things that things you think that a city can be secured like
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that, it's not possible at all, you cannot do that.
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So empowerment is something that I think our country needs to think about.
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But challenging, of course, because if you are challenged, then you think about your
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own security and then you devise ways of doing it.
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That is, again, is limiting your choices because you don't have many choices to, you know,
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to function and to make yourself secure at the same time.
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And Mumbai, of course, is a world apart from Delhi.
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So you started doing, for example, open mics and stand up comedy in 2010 and all that.
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Was it harder for you to be accepted?
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Yeah, because the truth is also that we are taught we are inconveniences, our bodies are
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inconveniences, the space that we try to occupy is an inconvenience.
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Every time we speak up, it is an inconvenience.
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We are collateral damage to the narrative of the great man's story.
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And we are side characters in our own story.
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And so I think that sense of like worthlessness, that's why it attaches itself to your psyche.
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That's why it attaches itself to our bodies.
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That's why I mean, marketers and advertisers can prey on our insecurities left, right and
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I personally do not remember looking at my own body because I was terrified.
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I was like, I don't know what is happening to my body as I grew up, because I was like,
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I know that this is a problem.
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I know that this is going to like restrict my space.
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This is going to make me invisible.
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And so it's going to make you invisible because people will see the body, not the person will
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see the body and not the person will not hear the words.
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And that has not stopped.
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I mean, I still am constantly getting, you know, trash about what I wear on stage.
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You know, even the way which I'm sure no male comedian ever does.
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You know, the kind of comments that you see below my YouTube videos, which I've stopped
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But if you see the kind of comments below my YouTube videos, they will have a distinct
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color that I don't think any male comedians sees under their videos ever.
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The kind of abuse, even if you say something ridiculous and, you know, the kind of abuse
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that comes at you is always gendered.
#
There is sexual abuse involved, there is rape threats involved.
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You know, there is general minimizing involved, which you don't see going to no matter how
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When I started doing and I mean, I remember at the age of 10, when my I saw my brother
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was taking buses at the age of 10 and he had all these friends and he was going and hanging
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out with them and they would, you know, form these cool gangs and they would go do cool
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And I remember I was dying to turn 10 so that I could take a bus and go meet my school friends
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And you never turned 10?
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I turned 10 when I was 16, is when my mother finally allowed me to take a bus by myself.
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And that too then, of course, you know, ki dupatta nahi pehna hai to put your bag in front,
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you know, and I mean, you see even today college girls going into trains, into buses, will
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have their bags, will they have their backpacks in front of them instead of on their backs,
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they'll have them in front because it takes your breasts off the spoking, stabbing market
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for that journey at least.
#
I mean, and for like, I remember I started doing open mics.
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My mother was genuinely confused.
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She was like, you're going, you know, into these clubs and stuff like that.
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First of all, you're not even telling me what clubs these are.
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And then you come back late in the night and you know, I think her problem was a little
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different where she was like, you're not even drunk.
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What did you do at this club if you've come back sober?
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Did you not go to a club?
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Mai tu apni zindagi jee nahi sakki, tum toh jee nahi.
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So much for empowerment.
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She was sort of like, she was terrified, she was like, you know, are you not going to clubs?
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Oh God, you're going to somewhere worse?
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And I was like, no, no, clubs only mom, clubs.
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But I know it took her so much longer to come to terms with the fact that I was doing this
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and that work required me to be out till say 12, 13 in the night.
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Even you know, when I was sort of, when I would say these ridiculous things on stage
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that some might find sort of edgy or AC or whatever.
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I mean, luckily I feel like, as I mentioned earlier, that I've been blessed with super,
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super open-minded parents.
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I think I am more conservative than my parents.
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I think I police myself a lot more than they imagine policing me because I am like, now
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They will say anything, I have to be careful, who will marry me?
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You know, all those thoughts that that sometimes even our parents have not put into us have
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been ingrained into us by society that, you know, if you, if you speak too much, no man
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will ever find you attractive.
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This is my theory, the more a woman talks, the lesser men want to f**k her.
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And men do not know what to do with a woman.
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They do not want to f**k.
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This is why I have realized that men are like, I don't want to put my dick in her, why is
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Like they get damn confused and you have to, and I think at the age of 32, I can finally
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say I'm okay with not fitting into any of the stereotypes that you have in your narrative
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I don't care if you are like confused by me because I am the hero of my own story and
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it has taken me 32 years.
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I can't imagine, I mean, I, I hated my twenties.
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I hated the insecurity of my twenties.
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I hated how it made me feel.
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And I, my heart goes out to everybody who is navigating this world in their twenties
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with the level of unsureity, with the fact that you are constantly being sort of minimized
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and told that you are a side character, as I said in somebody else's story, it just breaks
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And, and what you said in all of us laugh when you said it just a few moments ago about
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men not knowing what to do with women that dick who are not sexual objects for them.
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We all laugh, but the fact is that it's not actually a joke.
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It's actually just true.
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And earlier you mentioned, you know, edgy content and it also strikes me that a lot
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of content which coming from a male comedian would not be considered edgy, like sexual
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talk and so on, or talk of body parts and all that is suddenly madly edgy if it's coming
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So how do you deal with that when that realization comes that everything that you say has that
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added layer of the context of your gender to it?
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How does that then affect the work?
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Do you try to sort of push the boundaries or do you censor yourself for a very long
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So I've been doing comedy for seven, eight years now.
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I was clinically depressed for two during it because I was terrified.
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I did not know what I was doing and I knew that I didn't know how to do anything else.
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And I think the depression sort of, I mean, you know, sort of go navigating through it
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while simultaneously going on stage, of course, because girls got to make a living, was...
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You got paid in garlic bread you mentioned in the last episode.
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What I meant was girls got to make an eating.
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But I know that I saw my peers travel much faster.
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My male peers travel much faster to a journey that was taking me much longer.
#
Even today, the market rewards male comedians because more spaces are male because the bias
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I mean, male comedians don't get your laugh is irritating, your voice is irritating.
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She is making too many faces.
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I was like, this is my face.
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But that you don't see are problems for male comedians.
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But if you don't fit a certain type of role when you are, like, I mean, and unfortunately
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or fortunately, the four or five stereotypes that we have of funny females is either you
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are grossly obese and disgusting to look at and therefore your biggest shtick is how like
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you're just ugly and nobody will want to f**k you.
#
And that is the sort of the even the hero will, you know, you had the tun tuns and the
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sort of these things where we just accompanied with...
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There was very little narrative for somebody who was the hero of her own story or the heroine
#
And I feel like I struggled with that for a very long time.
#
I was like, what point of view am I writing from?
#
Am I valid in saying all these things?
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When I go into an audience, does my personal story have any value?
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Because they don't want to hear it.
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They're a group of, you know, 200 people who've come to laugh.
#
I mean, if I put myself out there, you know, what will the backlash be like?
#
And how long can I take that for?
#
And did you ever then in that case face a conflict between your desire for validation,
#
which of course every artist wants, and your desire to also do the kind of work you want
#
to do and be true to yourself, whatever that may mean?
#
And that actually has never stopped.
#
That is a continuous process that requires you to continuously engage your ego in this
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battle of like, I want to do this so badly.
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I want to tell my story.
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I want to hear you laugh so badly.
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But at the same time, I also want to protect myself.
#
And I feel like with comedy, especially there was no precedent.
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There was nobody in India that was doing it before me, and there were no other women.
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So it was extremely lonely.
#
And it was, you just sort of had to look within yourself to find in a sense, like if eight
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guys are performing on a given night and you're the only woman you are in a sense like a freak,
#
They're looking at you differently.
#
I mean, and even the green rooms and you know, environments, I mean, you I'm sure have been
#
in all male environments.
#
And what is now of course, legendarily known as locker room talk, right?
#
You know, at some point you're sitting there and you're hearing some men talk about another
#
And you're wondering, like you're looking down at the floor and wondering, Oh, what
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are they saying when I leave the room?
#
And if so, then should I participate?
#
Should I also participate in the abuse of this woman so that they will think I am cool?
#
One of them that I am one of the guys.
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And how do you reconcile that?
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I am not one of the guys.
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I have realized I am not one of the guys.
#
I have zero interest, like I've realized dudes are way more drama than girls, by the way.
#
This is what I have learned by interacting with groups of men is that they have way more
#
But would you say that then being in these environments and you know, overhearing these
#
conversations and finding out what men are really like in a sense as the solution to
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G extremely, extremely.
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And the pushback also that's I'm saying, no, like when I started doing comedy, I had nothing
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I do not care about men from here to Pune.
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I have zero interest in men.
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But I constantly got, excuse me, female comedian, you hate men.
#
I'm like, why do you make it so easy then?
#
And I was watching a YouTube clip of one of your shows and I'd encourage my listeners
#
to check out all the clips on YouTube where you were speaking in some show in Australia
#
where you said that, you know, I've been introduced here as a comedian, but in India, I'm always
#
introduced as a female comedian.
#
And you know, and that was the flip side of the empowerment, right, is then they molly
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Then they'll be like, okay, if you don't want to get raped, okay, now take these company
#
You are not going to save, you're not going to stop rape by wrapping women in bubble wrap.
#
You are going to stop rape by educating rapists to not rape.
#
But that seems to be something that I feel like, like our women safety budget, 100 crores
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on CCTV cameras, I was like, use that money to just talk to dudes about how women are
#
And that's the issue, this protection thing that why do women have to, they are the sufferers,
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they are, you know, fighting their way out.
#
You should be saying we are the sufferers.
#
And then we have to actually protect ourselves.
#
I mean, in our own country where we are born and we are, I mean, we are the part of that
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productive population, we are contributing to the economy, we are the part of that intellectual
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section of this society.
#
And we have to protect ourselves and find ways to not get raped and be molested and
#
Why do we have to do that?
#
It's incredibly perverse when you frame it from the sense that if misogyny is a problem
#
in India, surely the problem lies with the boys and not the girls.
#
So people who have the attitudes rather than the object of the attitudes.
#
And you mentioned about, you know, women being a productive part of the workforce.
#
And that's another thing, I think, that people sort of just take for granted that, you know,
#
so many men will talk about growing the economy and this is our GDP growth rate and bang, bang.
#
But the point is that you treat half the people in the country as practically subhuman.
#
And how many women in this country would actually be in the workforce and be, I'm not saying
#
they're not productive if they're not in the workforce necessarily.
#
But you know what I mean, they'd be far more fulfilled and contributing much more.
#
But they're not allowed to.
#
You know, this is sort of one of those things where 80% of the problems in this country
#
would really be solved if we tried to solve women's problems.
#
Because women as a gender are people and specially prone to seeing the effects and consequences
#
of bad policies, bad public decision making.
#
They are specially prone to suffering the consequences of that.
#
If you started solving their problems one by one, you would have, like, I bet the number
#
of problems that we could solve and the kind of conclusions that we could come to are much
#
I mean, there is that fantastic Angela Saini book called Inferior, which talks about how,
#
you know, I mean, biologically, it's been said that women are inferior to men physically.
#
And then she talks about the biases in data collection is that we have all known that
#
a pain in your left arm is a sign of a heart attack.
#
Signs are, it's mostly for men.
#
For women, the signs are very different.
#
But we have all been taught that it's a pain in your left arm.
#
There have been people, women who have been having heart attacks and not known they're
#
having heart attacks because they've been waiting for their left arm to hurt.
#
It is, I mean, and I mean, science clearly is not sexist or corruptible, but the people
#
who are practicing said science are just…
#
The samples are male… are just, are corruptible and sexist.
#
I mean, not willingly, clearly, but I mean, the sort of the systemic oppression and ignoring
#
of women in the mainstream has just, has had, I mean, long term effects that we are going
#
to see for the next six, eight generations.
#
So now my big question is, are we, you know, now that we've sort of moved well into the
#
21st century and the social media and we are exposed to attitudes around the world, are
#
But I'll come back to that after a quick commercial break.
#
So welcome to another week on IVM.
#
If you aren't following us on social media, please do.
#
We're IVM podcasts on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
#
This week on Simplified in a Shorty, Naren and Sri could simplify the phenomena of near
#
death experiences with interesting cases and scientific theories.
#
On Prakriti, Pawan and Humsani are joined by economic policy expert Yazad Jal to discuss
#
negative and positive rights.
#
On the Scene and the Unseen, Amit Verma is joined by standup comedian Aditi Mittal and
#
our production controller Swati to discuss misogyny and popular culture.
#
On Polyabazi, Saurabh and Pranay speak to Shruti Raj Gopalan about the meaning and importance
#
of property rights in India.
#
This week on Shunya One, we have Sujitha Salman, founder and CEO of LBP, a local recommendations
#
platform striving to discover all things new and old.
#
On Hustle Science, Ranveer and Tejaswant speak to their buddy, tech entrepreneur and founder
#
of Hello Inc, Angad Natkarni to understand his coding craze and a lot more about his
#
Welcome back to the Scene and the Unseen, I'm chatting with Aditi and Swati about the
#
broad subject of claiming your space, specifically talking about the misogyny in the industries
#
that they are part of, which is entertainment, journalism and in Indian society in general.
#
So my question to both of you is that, you know, in terms of technology and access to
#
the world and so on, India is modernizing really fast, social media, we are, you know,
#
the Me Too movement was all over the interwebs recently and so on.
#
And there is a lot more talk of feminism coming even from men, though one could argue that
#
a lot of it is performative feminism and it's just, you know, empty virtue signaling without
#
anything really behind it.
#
Have things been changing in actual concrete terms in the way, like, is it easier for women
#
today than they were when you guys entered your respective professions?
#
It's difficult to say that it's easier and how it is happening is to be seen as well.
#
Because if you see urban women like us who have opportunities, if they get educated,
#
if they are alive and they get educated, they have opportunities, definitely, no matter
#
how difficult the way is, but then how they're achieving that has to be seen.
#
You know, every morning when I leave home, there is a cook who comes to cook for me and
#
my husband, which means that my success somewhere is related to her own success.
#
And the irony is that she is also relatively empowered compared to her peers.
#
But this success, what we consider as success is actually is half hearted.
#
And I don't think so that it can be seen as a success or achievement because there is
#
a very, very small minuscule section which is being empowered, if at all.
#
What about all those women who are not part of this, this league, are we not going to
#
Are we not going to do anything about them?
#
And you've actually studied film studies.
#
So let me, so the next question might be right up your street, which is, I know popular culture
#
merely reinforces what society is also like, but in reinforcing that, you know, it's sort
#
of a vicious cycle that plays out.
#
How much of a role does popular culture have to play in terms of the role of women and
#
And is that something that has gradually changed, like essentially the reason so many Indian
#
men end up so entitled and become stalkers of women is because that's what you see in
#
That's how you win a woman's heart by if teasing her and harassing her till she eventually
#
Is that changing and how much of a role does popular culture play in that?
#
Popular culture itself is a representation of what you see around.
#
If you see the history of various forms of popular culture, say films, if you see how
#
many women have given space in history, like you were saying that we have to claim space
#
and you were mentioning about Tuntun.
#
Do we actually want to know about Tuntun and how many people have written about Tuntun?
#
You know, so that kind of thing that they have been systematically relegated to the
#
margins in every spare.
#
And you know, here's the tragedy that, you know, I heard Tuntun's name today just now
#
in the podcast when you brought it up after probably decades.
#
And I remembered at the last time I heard her name, when I was a kid, I would probably
#
have laughed at the thought of Tuntun.
#
And one should not laugh at the thought of Tuntun.
#
It's incredibly, you know, and everything that, you know, I mean, you think about someone,
#
but someone as amazing as Shobha Khote, for example, you're like, what a woman, what timing,
#
those scenes that, oh my God, just stellar work.
#
Who's talking about her in comedy?
#
Who is, I mean, even when we went through the history of comedy, there's very little
#
There's very little mention of their contributions.
#
I mean, I agree and disagree to a certain extent that, because I feel like whenever
#
Bollywood film me kuch ek baat achi hoti, then we're like, wow, wow, look, Bollywood
#
is affecting society change.
#
But then when bad things happen, you're like, well, it's just art.
#
So there has to be a level of somewhere where responsibilities are taken on both ends, right?
#
By the filmmakers to realize that, okay, we are living in a world where, you know, violence
#
against women is at its peak or is being reported at its peak.
#
And it's something that everybody is talking about and needs to be addressed.
#
So I maybe will not make a rape revenge fantasy film for a man.
#
Maybe you know what I'm saying?
#
As a filmmaker, maybe you decide to take that responsibility.
#
In fact, I don't know, there was a horrible film which came out last year where Hrithik
#
Roshan played a blind guy, one of a blind couple and his wife gets raped.
#
And the second time she gets raped, she kills herself.
#
And she does it for the reason that she doesn't want to cause him any more pain because every
#
time she is raped, he is getting caused pain.
#
And that is just mind blowing.
#
This is a film which came out last year.
#
How can those people even agree to act in those movies?
#
And so there has to be, there has to, I mean, there has to be a responsibility taken in
#
And I mean, truly the, the, we cannot, there's that whole chicken and egg situation where
#
you're like, oh, does the phenomena come first or the, this thing, these are too inextricably
#
And you attack them where you can.
#
It's because, and you know what, this is one thing that I find very amazing is when
#
people are like, you comedians, you're attacking that movie.
#
I was like, do you see where I live?
#
I eat my dinner for lunch the next day.
#
I have worn my pajamas for five days in a row.
#
You know what I'm saying?
#
That's my level of power.
#
So me saying something stupid to some dumb movie, which is a 60 crore project with 40
#
crores in this thing, you're telling me my stupid tweet is going to...
#
At least you have pajamas.
#
Salman Khan doesn't even have a shirt.
#
But you know, we, we have stopped acknowledging the unevenness of power.
#
I still believe that this is a big mistake.
#
The question is, we've stopped acknowledging the cheating.
#
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
#
No, we have stopped acknowledging the cheating.
#
Money with PR with what and also no matter what has been done to a company you should never feel bad for a company
#
Definitely never ever for a company
#
That's what if that's my heart beats for
#
Adani cop must be lying awake in bed and a poor thing. Poor Adani cop
#
You know that that sort of like
#
Treating pop culture as if it's equal to the people who are consuming. It is very dangerous, right?
#
And it's a vicious circle. They feed on each other. Yes, and everything is interrelated
#
But you attack them when you can if you see something wrong you call it out
#
Yes, that doesn't mean you have to call everything that is wrong out. I'm just preempting the inevitable
#
So before we started recording this what are you were talking about journalism and how it is such still today is such a
#
Misogynistic profession and you said something that had intrigued me
#
But you said that even the women who have risen to the top of the profession have turned themselves into men
#
I'm going to ask you to elaborate on that. Yes
#
I think my experience I'm talking only from my experience and I can't
#
Talk for others, but my experience has been like that. Because
#
I think that's the way for women to reach to the top
#
I definitely know that it's much harder for them than their male colleagues
#
But then in that, you know fight when they become like their male colleagues is something that they're not conscious about
#
So when you say that's a way for them to reach to the top you mean to reach to the top of the profession?
#
Just about when you say that's a way for them to reach to the top. You mean play the patriarchal game do the whining
#
Yeah, I mean because there is a lot of fight going on internally and externally
#
You know when you're trying to achieve something within a space that has its set rule because you cannot change the organizational rule
#
Dealing with it and the people that you're dealing with are not easy
#
Then what happens is your own tools and equipments that you have to fight it out
#
You have to learn something do something undo something and that process actually changes you
#
Before you even realize it that it has you know has had an impact on you in a way that you're not recognizing it
#
But you are completely changed by the time you pass through that entire tunnel
#
And you reach to the target where you want it to you are a completely changed person
#
So if I can just paraphrase that to make sure I'm understanding it correctly
#
What you mean is that let's say that you're a journalist and you have great journalistic skills
#
Whatever they are, but that's not all you need to get ahead
#
You also have to play that corporate game of getting ahead in the organization according to certain rules whether they are
#
Certain rules of socializing or certain modes of behavior and all of that
#
And if you choose to play that game to get ahead in the profession
#
Then that will inevitably change you as a person in the process
#
And you'll become a part of that game
#
Which is what you mean by the women who reach the top turning into men
#
Yeah, because you are trying to fit in somewhere and it has its own
#
You know set of rules to and consequences to confirm
#
I mean rules to confirm to and consequences that will follow you know that this is the only way
#
And that is how you decide that whether I want this or I don't want this like I made a decision that I don't want this
#
So I did not have you know have to walk that particular road
#
And I made my alternative to you know reach somewhere where I want to see myself
#
So everybody is not able to make that yes
#
In a way I find myself privileged and I'm in complete harmony with myself
#
No matter what others think about it
#
You know in a workspace when you are not able to follow the rules
#
You are seen as somebody who is cynical who is not making enough effort to do something
#
I have heard from my bosses that you know you're very pessimistic and you're a cynical person
#
Because you know there are so many opportunities you're not trying to grab them
#
Because I saw people grabbing those opportunities and the ways through which you know those opportunities can be grabbed
#
And I'm somebody who decided that okay I don't want to be that successful
#
What success actually means in those terms
#
So it's okay for me that if I'm not successful that's the way I am
#
But people who have actually achieved it would not admit that that they have done that
#
But they would say that these are the ways to achieve success because you can't do much about it
#
It's a constitutional thing
#
There is a constitution which has already been set
#
It's not being set by women but they have to follow that
#
It's the rule of law and you live by the rule of law
#
In all fairness I'll just say that you know I write for a number of publications
#
And all my editors at this current point in time are women
#
And they have reached the top of the professions and they're very strong women
#
And I respect them a lot but I can't speak on their behalf and you know you're sharing your experience
#
You know and that's what it is is that I mean because often the conversation around patriarchy and misogyny
#
Ends up becoming a men versus women thing which it is not
#
Women can be misogynistic as well
#
And I can say safely that you know before I sort of got introduced to so many feminist women and feminist thought
#
I was also a misogynist
#
I was in charge of my own oppression I internalized my own misogyny to hate myself enough
#
Because I knew that that was what everybody else was doing
#
And so you know when I meet women who are misogynistic it doesn't surprise me
#
It just breaks my heart a little bit that like you know this is sort of I wish I could tell you that this is about
#
You know it could free both of us if we stopped thinking like this, but that's not my place
#
Exactly and I cannot be the judge of how they got to making those choices
#
Yes if you know if they are in turn hampering my growth I can be mad
#
But that's at the max I can be is mad because it just I understand that the systems that are oppressing me are the same systems that are oppressing them
#
And with women I just feel like the conversations you can have are very different
#
Whereas with men I have seen an active resistance to understanding
#
And I mean this in the most like the most well-meaning men will turn around and be like what you're saying women are discriminated against
#
That's crazy I'm like you're kidding you're kidding I have done I mean I have to say this I don't do interviews anymore
#
Because it's been a year and a half since I've done an interview
#
And I just stopped doing them because I was getting calls from female journalists of course
#
Who would call me and say Aditi you know we want to talk to you about comedy and then it would just go into but tell us about sexism
#
And I was like but I have brilliant thoughts about comedy as well
#
But to them they're like we're doing you a favor by showcasing you
#
Yeah if you wanted to talk about comedy we'd call
#
We'd call the men but we are calling you so now our at us
#
And so then you have to our at them and so beyond the point
#
And also I mean like to be honest you meet sort of interviewers who are so deeply dismissive of the work that you do
#
I have had to educate all my interview whenever I get called for an interview
#
I'm like have you seen a show do you want I'll send you a video
#
So you watch it so you know what you're talking about when I give you my free time to come and tell you about my work
#
At this point Swati I must confess that when I invited Aditi on the show I proposed two ideas
#
I said one we can talk about the history of stand-up comedy in India especially
#
And two we can talk about misogyny and entertainment so it feels like you're talking about me
#
But I mean you know again don't be defensive
#
Yeah exactly and you know going on that don't be defensive point
#
It is also true that whenever you mention misogyny to a man
#
The man will take it as if it is a personal slur and get defensive
#
And that in a sense is also an admission of guilt in a manner of speaking
#
And I mean you know the thing is I like we are all misogynist
#
We have all been misogynist at some point in time or the other
#
And misogyny is just one level of upness
#
We are all humans are up in various different human ways
#
And it's fine if you work on that and acknowledge that like when I look back on myself as you know
#
15 years ago I wasn't just misogynist I was a lot else which is you know
#
But you work past that right
#
Yeah and I think we especially with the then elite women's right now
#
We are angry we're angry women are who are realizing their rights
#
And the way they have been discriminated against are angry
#
And I feel like that anger also intimidates people
#
And they will tell you don't down your anger be nicer be more palatable
#
How much how many waves of feminism will come and go
#
Before you will realize that this anger is justified
#
That this is costing us time costing us money costing us emotions costing us energy
#
Costing us careers costing us you know families
#
How much longer and how much more politely would you like someone to say
#
Please stop fucking XYZ over
#
So would you answer then be to the question I'd earlier asked and Swati had taken on
#
That are things getting better within this age of social media and so on
#
In fact I think no you know I don't know if they're getting better as an absolute whole
#
The fields where it can be messed up is even more like now the
#
What used to be these conversations in public spaces like on the roads
#
Where you're walking down the road and you get cat called and then you suddenly cover yourself up with your dupatta
#
And you walk a little smaller those conversations are being taken online
#
So now you are sitting at a Twitter account where you've just wanted to say I ate an apple
#
And then suddenly you've got 300 you know abuses under that
#
And so you realize well I'm not going to come back to this site I'm not going to say
#
So how do you deal with that you don't read the comments
#
I personally you know again it took me time it took me time
#
And it requires a lot of sort of it requires a lot of mental energy
#
And it costs you a lot where you see your male peers shooting off at the mouth
#
And you know getting ahead in life and whatever it is that they're doing
#
Whereas you are sort of like no no no I don't know I should cut myself short
#
You're wearing a backpack in front of you
#
You're wearing a backpack in front of you very essentially and it takes time
#
It takes time but I know for a fact that this is a thing
#
And that the battle as we explore new fields is not going to become absolutely better
#
The battle will take different shapes and forms of just being able to protect yourself
#
And being able to be free at the same time
#
And I think we really need to question women's role also
#
Because it's very important to recognize that who is actually playing an important role
#
In carrying this kind of tradition forward
#
It's not only men because it can't happen like that
#
It's definitely males and females both and we have to realize it and at some point address it
#
Was it at Kareena Kapoor who recently dismissively said oh but I'm not a feminist
#
Yes but I'm not I would not say that I'm a feminist
#
Yeah well I mean my position there really is that every decent person male or female should be a feminist
#
Should be a feminist yeah
#
You know but this is another thing why is the labor of claiming feminism on Kareena Kapoor
#
Why does nobody go to Shakti Kapoor and say bro you've done a lot of rape scenes
#
Tell us are you a feminist
#
So again the labor of even I've realized that after this whole immigration thing
#
I think the media focuses on that because it's more newsworthy if Kareena says she's not a feminist
#
And Shakti Kapoor says he's not a feminist
#
But Shakti Kapoor is the one that has caused the problems
#
His blue ball to the 90s
#
Shakti Kapoor is not that popular also I think that could be one of the reasons that
#
When Kareena Kapoor says something so we listen to her
#
Make a big deal out of it that's what I'm saying
#
If you are a woman journalist realize that the things that you're doing
#
And you know this sort of this pinning the blame and even asking women to take the mantle of fixing things
#
I've noticed that with this immigration crisis that's happening right now
#
90% of the female comics on my Twitter timeline are doing charity shows
#
Charity shows to send money to these kids that are in these detention centers right now
#
And it is because just women are putting themselves out there more taking on the labor of fixing the problems that they see
#
And to me you know I agree with you that we have to as a society address patriarchy
#
And the problems that misogyny is causing
#
And the economic loss that amount that misogyny is costing us in sort of income is crazy
#
But we also have to look at the role of men
#
And the fact is that you have to sort of realize that this problem is not only because it's a woman's problem
#
This is a problem that both genders need to sit down and address
#
And very rarely is the other drawbacks of patriarchy on men discussed
#
So let's say there's a male listener of my show
#
And hopefully there are male listeners of my show
#
Till I figure by now all the men have tuned out
#
All the men are like these bitches na
#
Every man who hasn't tuned out kindly leave a Twitter message in support of these ladies
#
And please tag them on it please
#
Good men should also speak up once in a while
#
So here's kind of my final question to you
#
You've painted a really dismal picture and so on
#
And assuming that there are male listeners of this show of any age
#
Who agree with the fact that this picture is really dismal
#
But whose response is to say that
#
Look I know that I am a nice guy in my personal life
#
My sympathies are with you
#
But I don't do any of these things I'm a good person
#
But that's not the whole story
#
What would you want to say to them?
#
First I would say stop getting defensive when somebody says there's a problem
#
Because every time you just say dudes are like this
#
There will be 600 dudes
#
What if they don't get defensive and they just shrug their shoulders and say not my problem
#
And that's also fine actually that would be preferable to you being like excuse me not all men
#
So one is don't get defensive
#
I think right now the biggest education needs to be given from one man to another
#
One because men will only listen to each other
#
Two also because the fact is that men need to start discussing how patriarchy is affecting them
#
They need to start discussing how emotionally stunted men have become
#
Because of the fact that they are not allowed to express their emotions
#
They need to discuss what is the crazy suicide rates among men of the age of 15 to 45
#
I don't know you tell me
#
Young men are committing suicide in larger numbers than any other subgroup
#
I'm kidding don't look at me like that
#
I'm not even looking at you
#
I'm looking right through you
#
Men need to start discussing with each other
#
If you see a fellow friend who is a creep
#
Because when your creepy friend gets called out
#
Then it's going to be much more difficult for you to be like well actually I thought he was just a friend
#
It's much better to quickly tell your friend
#
Listen brother you're being a creep
#
Don't be a creep right?
#
It is much easier it will save you and the entire ecosystem of brotherhood that you are supporting
#
A lot of trouble if you start calling each other out
#
One that so that's three
#
Four don't interrupt women
#
Five listen to what they're saying
#
Believe them because you'll realize that
#
Women think a lot before speaking up
#
They think a lot before speaking up
#
And therefore their words carry more weight
#
Especially if they're speaking directly to you
#
Understand that a woman who is speaking directly to you
#
Is taking some time out
#
If she's explaining stuff to you
#
She is taking some time out
#
The final one is that when two women are talking
#
Or when women are talking to an audience
#
That's an amazing point Swati
#
I think I would say two things only
#
We really need to sensitize men
#
Like Aditi said the responsibility of that
#
Is also on the men themselves
#
That was my second point actually
#
I'm sorry for interrupting you
#
To sensitize them at every level
#
To the organization that they go to work
#
That's very very important
#
Otherwise they never realize
#
What they're actually doing
#
If they're not sensitive enough to what they're doing
#
Their words, their actions, their postures, gestures
#
How gestures, postures and you know those smirks
#
Psychologically affect you
#
When two men are doing that
#
And you know okay I'm not part of that
#
So there is something which is going on
#
It might be against me, might not be against me
#
But you are actually focusing on that
#
Which takes your energy
#
Which is your creative energy if you're creative
#
Or if you're in the field
#
Where you're supposed to do something
#
That they need to be sensitized
#
That women are normal human beings
#
They are human beings like you
#
For a major part of our life
#
A men's movement for women
#
Because this is not going to happen
#
At every platform like she said
#
That Kareena Kapoor herself is not responsible for
#
Saying that okay I'm a feminist
#
Okay she opts out of it, then what
#
And I'm not sure that it can happen
#
And you know huge country
#
Which is so divided on various lines
#
To this problem from micro level
#
And at some level it's also a call for self awareness
#
Because men instead of getting defensive
#
And saying oh they are saying that men are bad
#
Are actually saying that many men are just clueless
#
And if they were a little more clued
#
Into what they are doing
#
And you know the world would be a better place
#
If you ever have any thoughts about
#
Like oh what should I do in this case
#
What would a woman think
#
On that excellent note we shall end this episode
#
Aditi and Swati thank you so much
#
Welcome to you guys today
#
Having travelled several miles
#
To get in with other poor souls
#
Though daunting for this youngling
#
Because she has downloaded her favourite
#
You can see more of her species
#
Your one stop destination
#
Where you can check out the coolest
